Aug 19 2009 1:28pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 6

Greetings, chirren. It is time – for Wheel of Time! Yaaaay!

The Re-read of DOOM continues with Chapter 7 of Lord of Chaos, a chapter which is mighty and meaty, and that plus unexpected events is why you’re only getting one chapter today.

Previous entries are here, and as always all posts contain spoilers for all currently published novels in the Wheel of Time series.

Speaking of which, a note before we begin: I’ve noticed people have been asking about spoiler policy regarding the upcoming release of The Gathering Storm. I’ve talked about it with the folks in charge round these parts, and rest assured that you guys will have a place to discuss TGS to your heart’s content on – both the spoilery kind of discussion and the non-spoilery kind. I will be giving you more details as soon as I have them.

As far as how spoilers will be handled within the re-read blog series itself: Well, it goes without saying that once I’ve read TGS myself, it is obviously going to affect my commentary on the series from that point forward. It’s impossible to suppose otherwise, really. However, I recognize that some of you may want to avoid spoilers for at least a short while immediately following the release date, so out of courtesy I will try to avoid spoilers for a couple of weeks following the book’s release in the re-read itself.

I can’t guarantee that there won’t be spoilers, since as of now I have no idea what will happen in the new book, and therefore I can’t know how it will impact whatever we happen to be covering when it gets here. However, I DO promise you that you won’t be blindsided. For at least a couple of weeks after, if I absolutely have to put spoilers for TGS in the re-read, I will make sure you can skip them if you so desire.

So, posts will have either no spoilers , or spoiler protection, for two weeks after the drop date. After that, though, it's every sentient entity for hirself. You Have Been Warned.

Concurrent with this, we’re going to ask you guys to be on the honor system regarding spoilers in the comments. There will a place for spoileriffic discussion, as I’ve said, so please respect your fellow readers on and refrain from posting spoilers in the comments of the re-read – or indeed in other posts on

So, there’s all that. And now, actual content!

Chapter 7: A Matter of Thought

What Happens
Elayne finishes getting ready for bed in the sweltering heat, and urges Nynaeve to hurry, as she knows how “they will go on” if they’re made to wait. Nynaeve sniffs, but agrees, and settles down with one of the three dream ring ter’angreal copies of the original that Elayne had made. She contemplates them with dissatisfaction; they worked better than the other dream ter’angreal, but still not quite as well as the original.

But what if one of her failures did worse than simply not work, or not work very well? Aes Sedai had been stilled studying ter’angreal. Burned out, it was called when it happened by accident, yet it was just as final. Nynaeve did not think so, of course, but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.

Nynaeve and Elayne drink the sleeping draught Nynaeve had prepared, and Elayne muses about the Salidar Tower dragging its feet about selecting an Amyrlin, despite all the reasons surrounding them that should be cause for hurry. She drifts off thinking of Rand and Min, and finds herself in Tel’aran’rhiod with Nynaeve, Siuan, and Leane. Elayne is annoyed that Siuan insists on keeping the original ring for herself, even though it would do more good with Elayne or Nynaeve, since it would let them channel at full strength. Siuan asks irritably what’s taking them so long, and Leane replies that she doesn’t know why it upsets her to have them there, considering how Siuan enjoys watching them make mistakes. Siuan mutters about Bryne running her ragged and being “lumbered with these two”, meaning Elayne and Nynaeve; Nynaeve grips her braid, and then the Salidar Six appear, clothes flickering wildly. Elayne reflects that they still haven’t seemed to grasp that they didn’t have to appear in their own bedrooms first. As they approach, Elayne overhears the end of their conversation: Sheriam and Anaiya are telling Carlinya that “they” will scorn any choice they make, so they might as well stick with the one they have, and no ruler will dare either way.

“In any case, no king or queen knows enough of what passes among Aes Sedai to understand. Only the sisters’ opinions need concern us, not theirs.”

“What worries me,” Carlinya replied coolly, “is that if she is easily guided by us, she may be as easily guided by others.”

They break off the conversation as they reach Elayne’s party, and Siuan and Leane immediately go into their squabbling act, turning their backs on each other peevishly. Elayne knows Nynaeve is intensely irritated by their charade, but she thinks it is very cleverly done, herself, as proven by the weary and absentminded way Sheriam and the others chastise them. Elayne notes that Myrelle’s jewelry changes momentarily to a wide silver collar supporting three small daggers, with a fourth one appearing and vanishing again in a second. Myrelle glares at Nynaeve and asks if they’re going to the Tower or what. Elayne attributes her temper to the meetings the Six have been having with the Wise Ones, which unfortunately started just as Egwene got injured, and so have been unsupervised. Between the Aes Sedai’s expectations of deference, and the Wise Ones’ protectiveness of the Dreamworld and fierce loyalty to Rand, Elayne judges the whole thing to have been “a recipe for disaster”. They are distracted by one of the cooks (Gera) briefly appearing in the Dreamworld (as an Aes Sedai, which Anaiya finds amusing), and Nynaeve gets in trouble for lecturing the Aes Sedai “like dim-witted children”:

“When somebody dreams themselves into Tel’aran’rhiod like Gera, but they’re having a nightmare, sometimes the nightmare survives, and those are very dangerous. Avoid anything that looks unusual. And try to control your thoughts this time. What you think of here can become real.”

Elayne jumps in, heading off disaster with an apology on Nynaeve’s behalf and a meek reminder that time is wasting. They all blink themselves into Elaida’s study, and Leane immediately excuses herself to go check on her network in Tar Valon; she vanishes before the Aes Sedai can stop her, and Sheriam tells Nynaeve to go after her. Nynaeve tries to explain that it will be next to impossible to find her, but Myrelle cuts her off sharply, and Nynaeve sighs and disappears. Suddenly Elaida is standing behind the desk.

“As I have Foretold,” she intoned. “The White Tower will be reunited under me. Under me!” She pointed harshly to the floor. “Kneel, and ask forgiveness of your sins!” With that, she was gone.

Everyone lets out relieved breaths; Beonin is worried that she said it was a Foretelling, and Elayne points out that it was Elaida’s dream, not necessarily reality. Anaiya observes that there was no blue stripe on her stole, and she and Sheriam are suddenly wearing their Blue Ajah shawls. They get down to business, splitting up to go through Alviarin’s and Elaida’s papers, as Siuan watches balefully, angry (and, Elayne thinks, worried) at this usurping of her responsibilities. Elayne remembers that Siuan claimed that Alviarin’s papers show that she has twice countermanded Elaida’s orders, apparently without repercussions. Myrelle finds a report from Danelle:

“She says that Mattin Stepaneos accepts wholeheartedly, Roedran is still trying to take every side, while Alliandre and Tylin want more time to consider their answers. There’s a note here in Elaida’s hand. ‘Press them!’ ”

Elayne knows that the topic had to have been either Rand, or the rebel Aes Sedai; Sheriam comments that at least that means their emissaries have as good a chance as Elaida’s, though of course Salidar had sent no one to Stepaneos (i.e. Sammael) in Illian. Elayne wonders what proposal Sammael could have approved of so well. Moving on, they find that the arrest warrant for Moiraine is still in effect (meaning the Tower doesn’t know she’s dead), and that the Accepted Shemerin has run away. The Aes Sedai look at Elayne at this, but say nothing; Elayne tries not to stamp her foot, for she and Nynaeve had told them about Shemerin being reduced to Accepted, and had not been believed. She creates a stool for herself to sit on, and notes that the semicircle of stools that used to be before Elaida’s desk is no longer there. The strange fighting in Arafel and Shienar is finally dying down, and the Blight is still disturbingly quiet; the eyes and ears in Tarabon are still silent, and there are rumors that Aes Sedai are involved in the fighting there. Reports of strange occurrences, two-headed calves that talk, “nightmares walking in daylight” and the like, which the Aes Sedai dismiss as nonsense (Elayne is not so sure); reports of Morgase raising an army under the banner of Manetheren and/or fleeing to every nation imaginable, including Amadicia, which Elayne dismisses as purely unbelievable. There is a report on Elayne herself, saying she must be returned to the Tower at all costs, as the ruling house of Andor was “the key”; Elayne has no clue what this means. The report on Rand’s amnesty looks rather crumpled.

[Elaida] had not written anything on that document, but scrawled biting words on another, enumerating the Aes Sedai in the Tower, made clear she was almost ready to declare publicly that any who did not obey her order to return were traitors. Sheriam and the other two discussed the possibility calmly. However many sisters intended to obey, some would have far to travel; some might not even have received the summons yet. In any case, such a decree would confirm to the world all the rumors of a divided Tower. Elaida must be near panic to consider such a thing, or else maddened beyond reason.

Elayne reflects that the Tower currently holds about a third of all active Aes Sedai, while the rebels have another third, and probably the best outcome they can hope for is that the last third splits itself equally between the two factions. Then Beonin finds out that Elaida has sent a delegation to Rand; Elayne jumps to her feet, but keeps silent at a hasty gesture from Siuan. Beonin says they are heading to Cairhien (Elayne is relieved), and that they apparently intend to offer him support and “an escort to the Tower”. Myrelle finds this preposterous, but Sheriam thinks “that woman” might do anything, and worries that Rand might find the offer attractive. Elayne bursts out, asking how they can think Rand would even consider Elaida’s offer, and that they have to warn him. Sheriam asks coolly how exactly they should do that, but then they hear screams coming from outside. They all run out of the study to find that Anaiya, Morvrin and Carlinya are gone. Myrelle, Sheriam and Beonin rush into the corridor, ignoring Elayne’s shout to be careful. She and Siuan follow to find themselves looking at a nightmare, literally: a cavern filled with ravening Trollocs.

Once freed of the mind that created them, such things sometimes drifted through the World of Dreams and sometimes latched on to a particular spot. Aiel dreamwalkers destroyed each as a matter of course whenever they found one, but they—and Egwene—had told her the best thing to do was avoid any she saw altogether. Unfortunately, Carlinya apparently had not listened when she and Nynaeve passed that on.

Carlinya is being lowered headfirst into a cauldron filling with boiling oil, screaming frantically; Anaiya and Morvrin hesitate on the edge of the nightmare and are suddenly sucked in, and reappear being flogged and racked, respectively. Sheriam, Myrelle and Beonin link; Elayne shouts at them not to treat it as real, but it is too late, and they are sucked into the nightmare in turn. Elayne asks Siuan if she remembers how to dispel nightmares.

Eyes fixed on the scene in front of her, Siuan nodded. “Deny its reality. Try to fix things in your mind as they would be without it.”

That had been Sheriam’s mistake, all the Aes Sedai’s mistake probably. By trying to channel against the nightmare they had accepted it as real, and that acceptance had pulled them into it as surely as walking in, leaving them helpless unless they remembered what they had forgotten. Which they showed no sign of doing.

She and Siuan concentrate on the corridor as it’s supposed to be, but nothing happens, and Elayne says they need the others. Siuan thinks she means Leane and Nynaeve at first, but then stares at her, realizing she means going into the nightmare themselves and doing it from the inside.

“Girl,” Siuan said in a toneless voice, “you have a lion’s courage, and maybe a fisherbird’s sense.” With a heavy sigh, she added, “But I don’t see any other way myself.”

She and Siuan let themselves get sucked in, and Elayne finds herself bound face down on a stone slab, with a cookpot a few feet away. She hears Siuan telling Sheriam and the others, in between screams, that this is only a dream, and Elayne joins in, entreating them to imagine the corridor as it should be, as a Trolloc comes toward her with a knife and starts cutting off her clothes.

Desperately she held on to the image of the hallway. “Carlinya, Morvrin, for the love of the Light, concentrate! Think of the corridor! The corridor! All of you! Think of it hard!” Grunting something in a harsh language never meant for a human tongue, the Trolloc flipped her facedown again and knelt on her, thick knees crushing her arms against her back. “The corridor!” she screamed. It tangled heavy fingers in her hair, yanked her head back. “The corridor! Think of the corridor!” The Trolloc’s blade touched her tight-stretched neck beneath her left ear. “The corridor! The corridor!” The blade began to slide.

Suddenly she was staring at colored floor tiles under her nose. Clapping hands to her throat, marveling that they were free to move, she felt wetness and brought her fingers up to stare at them. Blood, but only a tiny smear.

She gets up to find the others in much worse state: Sheriam and Anaiya are weeping and covered in blood, Myrelle is in a fetal position, and Carlinya and Beonin seem almost catatonic. Morvrin, who appears to have multiple broken bones, says they must go back to Salidar for Healing, but Siuan asks to stay, saying she’s had worse bruises “falling in a boat”; Morvrin replies that she looks more like someone dropped a boat on her, but agrees. Elayne asks to stay too, but is told no. The six Aes Sedai vanish, and Elayne takes a quick side trip to the throne room in the Caemlyn Palace. It’s difficult to get there, and Elayne sees why:

On the dais at the end of the hall where the Lion Throne should have stood was instead a grandiose monstrosity made of Dragons sparkling gold and red in gilt and enamel, with sunstones for their eyes. Her mother’s throne had not been removed from the chamber. It stood on a kind of pedestal, behind and above the monstrous thing.

She wonders aloud in a harsh whisper what he thinks he is doing, and is afraid he’s going to bungle things in Andor without her there to help him. She worries about Elaida’s embassy to him, and Salidar’s for that matter, and she wishes for Min to reach him quickly and take care of him.

A stab of jealousy hit her that Min would be there to do what she wanted to. She might have to share him, but she would have part of him all to herself. She would bond him as her Warder, whatever it took.

“It will be done.” She stretched a hand up toward the Lion Throne, to swear as queens had sworn since there was an Andor. The pedestal was too high for her to reach, but the intent should count. “It will be done.”

She disappears, and Demandred steps out from behind a column. He was pretty sure that the young woman had been Elayne Trakand, and judging from her words she was not happy about what al’Thor was doing here at all.

In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.

“Let the Lord of Chaos rule,” he told the thrones—though he still wished he knew why it had to be so—and opened a gateway to leave Tel’aran’rhiod.

Well, that was a very... full chapter.

“Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead”: Uh-huh. No symbolic foreshadowing here, no sirree. Nothing Christ-like to see here, move along! Shoo!

Egwene: Still can’t remember at what point I guessed what all the cryptic conversations like the one in this chapter were referring to. It’s possible that I didn’t guess it till Egwene actually finds out, because occasionally I am very slow on the uptake.

Myrelle’s marriage knives: Um, yeah, you go ahead and enjoy shitting on Nynaeve while you can, because if she ever finds out that you have not just gotten Lan’s bond (and slept with him too!), which is quite bad enough, but that you even kinda sorta considered yourself married to him? RUN, WOMAN. Run and hiiiiiiide. Ye gods.

Nynaeve’s “dim-witted child” lecture: Sometimes there’s a fine line between awesome foreshadowing, like the “three days dead” thing above, and stuff like this, which is just clunky plot telegraphing if you ask me. It would have been okay if this bit of exposition had been slipped in earlier, but for Nynaeve to grace us with this information and then for the worst-case scenario to happen almost immediately? Enh.

But I do sympathize with the “dim-witted child” bit, because I would have LOST MY MIND if I’d had to try teaching these women. I’ve made various attempts to see things from their perspective, and I can admittedly see how a headstrong teenage princess and a backcountry wilder with a giant chip on her shoulder might not automatically inspire the greatest amount of confidence, but GRAAAR.

In their defense, though, sort of, the White Tower has fallen prey to the same trap that plagues any political organization high in intrigue and low on tolerance for failure, which is that its members are continually under extreme pressure to never show any signs of weakness whatsoever. The whole dog-eat-dog thing, which makes for great fictional drama but makes me want to spit in real life. Social Darwinism is fun! *gag*

(Trust me on this; I used to work in Hollywood. There’s a reason I don’t anymore.)

“Weakness” would certainly include admitting ignorance of any given topic, so Aes Sedai, like many a politician in real life, are strongly conditioned to maintain the pretense of all-knowing serenity, even in the direct face of evidence they are not, lest they be pulled down by their detractors/competitors. Combined with the equally strongly enforced view of Accepted as immature children regardless of their actual age, from a certain point of view it’s amazing that these Aes Sedai allowed Elayne and Nynaeve to teach them anything at all.

Stupid? Yes. Annoying as hell? You betcha. But, sadly, believable.

Of course, it’s hard to maintain irritation at people who have been through hell, more or less literally, though perhaps it’s rather terrible of me to use their nightmare torture as an excuse to find a silver lining...

The “trapped in a nightmare” sequence, by the way, is one of the better scary scenes in WOT, in my opinion; it left a very vivid impression on me. Elayne and Siuan are Ka-Razy for voluntarily jumping into that. And, also, awesome.

Also rather awesome, surprisingly, is Morvrin, who has a dry comeback for Siuan with her limbs bent the wrong way. Dude. Carlinya, of course, continues to suck, and Anaiya continues being sweet and lovely and setting us up for heartbreak when she gets killed off, dammit.

I remember a lot of people got perturbed at Elayne’s vow to bond Rand, since this was taken to mean that she would do it with or without his permission, which is pretty much beyond uncool (as we will see). I’m pretty sure that’s what Jordan wanted us to think, actually, and I’m not sure why he wanted us to think Elayne was capable of such a thing, because I’m personally convinced that she is not, and this was another one of Jordan’s red herrings. (And no, Birgitte’s bonding does NOT constitute evidence of such. That was a life-or-death situation, in which it was not possible to ask first, and bonding her was certainly preferable to letting her die, as Birgitte herself was the first to agree.) I always thought she was going to ask Rand first; I just took the vow to mean she wasn’t going to let anything else get in her way. But then, I like Elayne, so maybe it depends on how low your opinion is of her as to where you fall in this debate.

Of course, it’s a moot point now, given what happened in Winter’s Heart, but it was a big controversy at the time, so.

Demandred: Heh. It’s not just the good guys who can wildly misinterpret information. Neener neener!

And on that mature note, your Auntie Leigh takes a powder. Enjoy, play nice, and I’ll see you on Friday!

Sydo Zandstra
1. Fiddler
Yay! Spoiler discussing place for tGS! (Thanks, Leigh!)

The whole AS giving in to nightmare scene is one of my favourites in this book. I keep thinking 'So you thought you knew it all, huh? Try and get out of this cookpot...' whenever reading it...

I finished reading PoD recently, and when Elayne entered the Throne Room in Caemlyn, she was looking for the monstrous throne she saw in this chapter. It wasn't there.

In fact, I seem to recall it was never there, and that Rand just used a common chair there, kind of like the Stewards of Gondor were using.

Which leads me to think Demandred was sowing some Chaos right here in this chapter. This was in Ta'R after all...
Lannis .
2. Lannis
@ Fiddler: I had the same thought, having finished PoD, that the dragony chair was missing...

And yes, this nightmare scene was a little too convenient (albeit vivid) after Nynaeve's warning. A little jinxy jinxy anyone?

Great recap, Leigh!
Marcus W
3. toryx
I love the scenes where people are going through Elaida and Alviarin's mail. It must be some sort of buried aspect of my personality that likes snooping around or something, because these are some of my favorite scenes.

I also get a great deal of satisfaction out of Elaida's tirades. As irritating as that woman is, I have more fun watching her fail as Amyrlin than any other scenes to do with Aes Sedai.

I agree with Leigh: The lecture foreshadowing the nightmare bit was clumsy. I've always imagined that's something that someone pushed on RJ at the last minute out of fear that the readers would somehow be confused.

I actually do think that all the stuff about Nynaeve healing the dead, and the whole "three days dead" comment of Elayne's is, albeit kind of funny, a total red herring. I don't think Nynaeve will ever be able to actually heal death and that if Rand does "die" in some way it won't be a complete physical death but something else entirely.

I'm well prepared to be absolutely wrong about that, however.
Tess Laird
4. thewindrose
I do enjoy it when the Salidar six, and the Hall for that matter, realize Egwene is not a biddable child.
One of the nice things about this close reread, is seeing that some people - ehem Elayne - are not completely a lost cause as some would have you beleive.
Kurt Lorey
5. Shimrod
I completely missed that part about Myrelle and the marriage knives!

The thing is, Moiraine trusted her to save Lan and prepare Nynaeve, but I think poor Myrelle's personal preferences are a little at war within herself about it. Territorial, in a Warder kind of way.

Demandred. I only like him because few (if any) of us can figure out who the heck he is posing as. The mystery keeps my interest. Other than his survival instinct, he is little different than most of the other male Forsaken.

I always kind of wondered whose nightmare it was that colored the evil that snared the Aes Sedai in this chapter. Carlinya? So much for being a cool, collected White sister.
Galen Brinn
6. GatheringStorm
Can't recall the particular scene you bring up from PoD, Fiddler. I read it back in May, but PoD I found generally B-O-R-I-N-G and I sped through a lot of it trying to get through the book. Therefore, not remembering it doesn't mean squat and you may have a very good point.

Once again, Elayne shows the mistrust that everyone else seems to show in Rand: "He'll just muck things up unless I'm there to guide him". How about get off his back, Elayne?
Mitchell Swan
7. mcswan
Indeed, thanks much to Leigh and Tor for some spoiler-ific space to chat up TGS!
Sydo Zandstra
8. Fiddler

I have always believed, and still do, that Demandred is not posing as anybody. We've only seen him as Demandred.

(It's not exactly a Law that all Forsaken are posing as a RandLand character; we saw Moghedien pose as a servant, but that was revealed rather close after the scene where she did, when she scooped up Liandrin&Co)

About whose nightmare it was. There is a theory that Sheriam is a 13x13'd DF. Forced or not, if Sheriam is Black, my bets would be on her providing the nightmare here...

It's in the end of that book.
Wannabe Asha'man
9. Wannabe Asha'man

Long time reader, first time writer. Just wondering how you are going to handle doing the reread and reading TGS at the same time? Are you going to take say a week break from the reread so you can read TGS, or do you have the time to do both at the same time?

The reread is something I definitely look forward to while at work because actually doing work is not as fun, so keep up the reread, I love the commentary, not always agreeing, but what would the world be like if we all agreed on everything?
Tess Laird
10. thewindrose
I think Elayne is really just wanting to be with Rand( and it is the country she was intended to rule). She already could see that he has ruler qualities back from their time in Tear.
Wannabe Asha'man
11. ZamIt ate my post again! That is frustrating. If I don't see that word verification capcha I know the post is toast!
Kurt Lorey
12. Shimrod
@8 Fiddler.

Well. That would certainly be funny.

Still, where the heck is Demandred hiding himself then? Can't be in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh most all of the time, can he?
Wannabe Asha'man
13. alreadymadwithcookpot
Fiddler @1
You are probably right about Demandred sowing chaos. I never really thought of it like that.

As for the Trolloc cookout, it could be anybody and not necessarily with them.

Demandred... I've noted in the previous re-read my theory that he's actually posing as Rhadam Asunawa.
paul Hend
14. tugthis
Elayne's comments about what she wants to do with Rand are curious in the way that they show her mind working. Initially it follows a pang of jelousy about Min, then she vows to bond him... as if that is one upping her relationship with Rand. In which case she seems to forgetting that Rand is both a personal love and a political rival. . .. (in as much as the Sun throne is going to have to be subservient to Rand's need to win TG).

Of course that plan itself is in for a wakeup call when she finds herself in a four way with Rand. Still the desire to bond Rand seems petulant. . . as in I will do to(for?) him what no one else can. . . and I am a princess and will have my cake.
Sydo Zandstra
15. Fiddler
@12 Shimrod:

I doubt he settled in there ;) . Demandred is probably somewhere in RandLand, but just not in an acting publicly visible role like most other Forsaken did.

Note that Lanfear and Asmodean used the same Modus Operandi, until Lanfear started on her little scheme in tSR.

The same can be said for Moghedien, really. The servant thing she did in Tanchico was probably done to check out Liandrin's team's weaknesses. She only looked up Elayne and Nynaeve there after Elayne had channeled in self-defense...
Helen Peters
16. Helen
Yay, Lan's coming back. Is Myrelle Ebou Dari? The knives aren't quite the same, but I did peg them for marriage knives.

Re: tGS spoilers, is that for 2 weeks after it's out in the States, or are you gonna let the rest of us in the rest of the world catch up? Or are we all getting it on the same day?
Josh Davis
17. YoSoyElJosh
Good job, RJ, on a bit of foreshadowing there with Beonin. If not foreshadowing, then still a great character to choose later on for the Aes Sedia who returns to Elaida, because of the "Foretelling."

@8 I agree. The Forsaken who've done the best at surviving thus far were the ones that didn't make themselves well known. If Demandred is posing as anyone, it's either a character of little consequence that we've met briefly, or someone mostly off-screen, a la Graendal.

@5 Would it necessarily be any of the Aes Sedai in the room making that nightmare? There are plenty of people in the Tower who've fought Trollocs, and some of the Black Ajah might have some Trollocky fears (non-channeling dark friends do, at least).
Sydo Zandstra
18. Fiddler

Demandred... I've noted in the previous re-read my theory that he's actually posing as Rhadam Asunawa.

Why would Demandred be spending time with Whitecloaks, especially as of KoD?

Asunawa is too old, and too many Whitecloaks know or have known him. I also saw a theory about Asunawa being one of Demandred's proxies, but I'm not buying it. As I read him, Asunawa is just our general Head Inquisitor, like those the Spanish Inquisition gave us in the past.

If he really would need a place to stay, Demandred could always go to Shayol Ghul. Or pose as a Senior Darkfriend somewhere (like Lanfear and Asmodean) and claim a palace, without needing to interfere with daily politics/stuff in this role. (It's what I'd do if I were him ;) )
Rob Munnelly
19. RobMRobM
OK, I finally registered. Let's hope to goodness that this post works. Zam it - I feel your pain. I've been losing 50% of my posts and it's threatening my top ten ranking on this board (which is, no doubt, well in the past given the prolixity of many of the newer posters. I have the benefit of being here since EOTW).

@16. She is from Altara - don't know whether from Ebou Dar itself. I did not catch the knives reference in reading this chapter to date. Nice one Leigh.

Re the throne - wasn't that something cooked up by someone else, not at Rand's request? or am I thinking of Cairhein?

Re the Aes Sedai, I have to say that this is getting close to the tipping point where I began to believe that they were, in the collective, aggravating idiots - both in Salidar and the Tower - a concept that bothered by greatly, after spending beaucoup quality time with toughminded but fair souls like Moiraine, Siuan and Anaiya in the early books. The combination of aggravating idot AS, with aggravating idiot Kin, and with aggravating idiot Ath'an Miere, is a significant reason why the later books are less popular and less fun than the early books.

Leigh Butler
20. leighdb
Wannabe Asha'man @9:

We're still working all that out. I'll let you know once I do.

Helen @16:

That's two weeks after the U.S. drop date. I am relatively sure that the UK and Australia release dates are the same as the U.S., actually, though I can't speak to other countries' schedules.
Sydo Zandstra
21. Fiddler

FWIW: says it will be delivered on November 2-3, here in Europe (NL).

That's still an estimation, of course. They delivered Steven Erikson's 'Dust of Dreams' today, 2 weeks ahead of schedule.
Wannabe Asha'man
22. ErrantKnave
Foreshadowing?! There's something I missed on my first read. Wow... So, does this mean Rand could die in TG, and Nynaeve brings him back, at least for a little while? I used to think Rand's chances of surviving TG were slim to none, but this could alter that a little.

Someone let me know if I'm going down the wrong path here.
Marcus W
23. toryx
RobMRobM @19:

Congratulations on registering! May all your posts be trouble free from here on out.

YoSoyElJosh @ 17:

I completely agree about the Beonin forshadowing. That was one of those bits that was excellently done.

I've come to the conclusion over the years that whenever RJ seems to be hammering an idea home (with a few small exceptions) it's not actually what you think it is, but the smaller points are almost always going to come to fruition eventually.
Anthony Pero
24. anthonypero

I have a lot of difficulty believing RJ will really kill Rand off in the end. The tragic ending just doesn't seem to fit the MO of this story to me, not to mention the MO of the Genre when this story was conceived.
25. Hopper
@RobM 19

I agree, the collective decline in intelligence coupled with the growing lack of trust between characters definitely made the later books less fun. I spent much more time saying, "come on, REALLY!" and just wishing characters would figure it out as the books went on, and lost that page turning excitement that followed the characters through the first 5 or 6 books.

Although KoD sucked me right back in, as I'm sure tGS will too. Jordan is still in my top three.
Helen Peters
26. Helen
22. ErrantKnave

I'm holding out for Rand to be resurrected 3 days after dying, I won't be upset until a week has gone and Nyn still hasn't figured it out. Of course it may not be tempting fate, it might be serious. Oh and
Antoni Ivanov
27. tonka

Asunsawa is not Demandred , Demandred's Randland alter ego has not been seen till Crossword of Twilight. I quoted Robert Jordan in the previous review about that.

And Rand will live ,after all he knows How to survive - "To live, you must die". Pretty straightforward , don't you think ? No? Maybe not,then.
Wannabe Asha'man
28. mike#numbers
just sat down con mi tortillas y salsa to read my favorite tri-weekly reread

spanglesh ftw
Tess Laird
29. thewindrose
RobMRobM Are you chossing me! I always look forward to your rage at TOR for eating your comments.
Just kidding - welcome to just being able to post. You can save your top tam spot now:)
*Yes typo is meant.
Kurt Lorey
30. Shimrod
Andre Norton played with the idea of a soul returning to a body several days after death in Knave of Dreams, IIRC.

Something about unfinished business, or something?

No more schadenfreude regarding RobMRobM's inability to successfully post. What is this world coming to? lol
Rob Munnelly
31. RobMRobM
Thanks to all for the congrats. And for windrose -- choss you wait about Tam's upcoming plotlines in TGS.

And to @22 and 24 - of course Rand is going to die. The only relevant question is the manner of resurrection and whether he'll be in his own body (a la Birgit getting pulled out of TAR) or someone else's (such as Moridin's). I'm voting for Moridin's so that the prophecy about something different about his babies with Avi will come true.

32. Freelancer
Lan as a flickering dagger on Myrelle's neck will turn into Nynaeve's dagger at her throat if/when she ever get close enough.


I can't access the text right now, but I believe that the throne Elayne saw was real, that the Andorans had made it to compete with the one the Cairhienins had made in the Sun Palace. Besides, it's a bit of a stretch for Demandred to do what you suggest. He's in T'a'R, he doesn't know that the girl is Elayne until after he sees her. So what would be the chances he'd set up a gaudy throne in the T'a'R version of the palace just in case someone came to the dreamworld who would be offended by it?

RE: The nightmare in the T'a'R Tower. The nightmare didn't belong to any of the visitors we see, because they stumbled into it. The point Nynaeve had made just a bit before was that a momentary visitor to T'a'R can leave their nightmare behind. I reject the Sheriam as DF theory, but even if true she doesn't know enough about T'a'R to have intentionally created such a nightmare.


Ahh, another resistor successfully assimilated. The collective grows. Step into that device for implantation of your appliances.
Michael Catapano
33. hoping
shimrod @5 et al
The nightmare did not necessarily come from any of the SAS dreamers. Nightmares will float around in TAR, source unknown. It is stated that the WOs routinely destroy them when they see them.

re Nyn's lecture
She was just hung out to dry on the dangers of TAR by Eg (in tFoH?) including nightmares, and has personal experience with them, courtesy of Eg, as well. So it made sense to me that it was still on her mind.

I'm glad there is no required reading this post ala Mr. Nice Guy from last post. Long and boring. Does anyone know if that will be on the test? ;)

It seems we're finally done with the summarizing and recapping that RJ started with the later books. It never made sense for me. It's too little for someone who is just starting the series and repetitive for everyone else.
Wannabe Asha'man
34. Lsana
@18 Fiddler,

Why shouldn't Demandred be with the Whitecloaks? I agree that he probably isn't anyone that we have seen, but it does seem like pretty much every major nation/organization got a forsaken infiltrator at some point, and Demandred is just about the only one who could plausibly be the infiltrator in the Whitecloaks. It also seems like a great place from which to sow chaos. I think it's as good a place for him to be as any, and better than most.
Kurt Lorey
35. Shimrod
To all:

Not the nightmare, in and of itself, but in the form it took. Would it have been the same no matter who fell into it first, or would the form have followed the fears of the first one in?

Different people have different ideas of what would have constituted a nightmare, I imagine.

Re: Sheriam. I don't think Sheriam is a DF either. But, somebody is (was?) abusing her who is either much stronger than she is, or Halima.

edit: Plenty of places for Demandred to hide within the Hailene or the Corenne. My bet is on hiding within the Hailene. Of course, I think he's "dead" for now, too.
Sydo Zandstra
36. Fiddler
@32 Freelancer:

First, I am not digging in to prove my point. I've been wrong often enough. But I'm loving a good discussion.

Here's Leigh's quote:

She disappears, and Demandred steps out from behind a column. He was pretty sure that the young woman had been Elayne Trakand, and judging from her words she was not happy about what al’Thor was doing here at all.

In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.

“Let the Lord of Chaos rule,” he told the thrones—though he still wished he knew why it had to be so—and opened a gateway to leave Tel’aran’rhiod.

From this, I took it that Demandred knew how to recognize Elayne. Meaning he has seen her before or knows enough about her to recognize her. As the scene was described, I also don't think he followed her to the Caemlyn Throne Room. So I guess he was already there, or set an alarm for when somebody would enter (if that is possible).

What Demandred thought about 'what al'Thor was doing here at all' does not automatically mean that it was done by Rand. If I were going to set you up for something, in my mind I would refer to it as 'something Freelancer did here'.

Also, the mention of 'another thread yanked, how feeble it may be' doesn't make me think Demandred just stumbled in there.

About the horrible throne itself, you may be right on Andorans putting it there. However, I doubt Rand would have let it up there long enough for it to make an impression in T'aR.
Thomas Jeffries
37. thomstel

Man, I'm jealous. I've been re-reading all the good Malazan parts over the last couple weeks to try and stave off insanity until DoD gets here.

Oh, any why the heck are you in here posting about Lord of Chaos! Go read new Malazan!!!
Rob Munnelly
38. RobMRobM
@32. I find my fingers traveling over the keyboard on their own accord and heading to the store to buy things, lots of things. is good. is good. is good. Pablo and Torie are my gods. Pablo and Torie are my gods. Pablo and Torie are my gods.
Sydo Zandstra
39. Fiddler
@34 Lsana:

The Whitecloaks are actually the only organization that doesn't need any nudges from the Dark. They are already sowing distrust among people wherever they show up and they openly oppose Aes Sedai. They are unaware of this working for the Dark, but the effect is the same.

So, barring a DF or 2, like Carridin, they don't need FS attention.

It's only after Galad takes over that they stop working for the Dark.

And, although I still don't like them, we may have to give credit to the Seanchan for this...

DoD is next to my bed. I have to be on my pc for a while still though. After that I will be off for a few days ;)
Jason Lyman
40. jlyman
@38 RobM

The cubicle is real! Concentrate on where you really are! It's all just a dream! Concentrate!

Crap! We're gonna have to go in ourselves to bring him out.
Rob Munnelly
41. RobMRobM
@40. Thank you so much for saving me. Too bad you're still an Accepted. Go clean my laundry. Rob
Wannabe Asha'man
42. Lsana
@39 Fiddler,

The same could be said of the Seanchan: they don't seem to need the help of the Forsaken to be complete and utter bastards, yet Semirhage is/was with them anyway. Much the same is true of the White Tower: even Moiraine admits that Rand would have to be an idiot to trust any Aes Sedai, BA or not, but they still have Messana. The reason that Semirhage and Messana are with those organizations may be partly to encourage the "Dark" tendencies that they have, but its mostly to build up a power-base and exploit the 3rd Age organization for all its worth.

The Whitecloaks are a power in Randland. They have a large military force. They have a lot of respect in Randland, especially in those areas where the Aes Sedai are particularly hated. They are free to go pretty much anywhere. Best of all, being a Whitecloak pretty much automatically frees you of suspicion of being a Darkfriend. Given that, I have a hard time seeing why some Forsaken wouldn't take up with the Whitecloaks. Yeah, they do plenty of damage without help, but if you were Demandred, wouldn't you rather having them doing the damage that you want rather than randomly blundering about? They represent a power that can be used.
Francesco Paonessa
43. ErrantKnave
Thank you @24, 26, and 31 for answering my question. I've heard the Rand/Moridin theory before, and I know Rand's body is going through some serious wear and tear, but Rand in Moridin's body would be weird--sort of like the 'Gars.

Helen, that comic was me in a nutshell :D
Sydo Zandstra
44. Fiddler
@42 Lsana:

The Whitecloaks seem to be a power in the intimidating fashion. However, they only managed to get a seat in one country.

What I was meaning was that the Whitecloaks are not a real power at all. In peacetime they may ride around, showing their shiny white armour and say how bad Aes Sedai are, and create discord in villages.

But when things get serious, and Aes Sedai get into the fray, they are an entity that will either obey or get whiped out. That is without Seanchean being into the equation.

My point: there are no channelers among the Whitecloaks, and Forsaken will focus on channelers. So Seanchan, Aes Sedai, and Asha'man are way more attractive to them.

So the Whitecloaks have no use. Not enough to start posing as one of them.
Wannabe Asha'man
45. Katiya
Just wondering, this thing about the Foretelling always bothered me. Was it really just a dream? It seems strange for Elaida to dream that she had a Foretelling that she would put the WT back together...wouldn't she have just dreamed of herself as uber Amyrlin? Or dreamed of herself punishing them? It just seemed an awkward way to go...maybe it was done strictly to pull Beonin into the Circle of Crap that surrounds Egwene later on.
Tasneem Gould
46. Latecomer
Thanks to RobM for the inspiration - I created my original profile with a name that gives too much away about me so was not using it. Finally figured out a way to get my name 'changed'.

Hopefully, no more disappearing posts - it gets very tedious when you've just typed out reams and then it disappears when you hit 'Preview'.

Also, I'm finally reading the series alongside this re-read. And yes, its fantastic to follow it this way because, as amazing a job Leigh is doing, there is no way that everything in these chapters can be crammed into 1 post. Nice to pick up on little bits here n there.

Question: For a while there is no one within the white tower with a POV, so does anyone remember when Pain Fain comes in? Is he 'advising' Elaida at this stage?
I know that the diminishing stools in the study mean that Elaida is exerting her own power over the 'council' that was in evidence right after the coup. But is this influenced by Fain in any way?

Finally - White Cloaks. Carradim (a high raning member) is a Darkfriend and might be enough for the Dark to keep a hand in. They do kill Niall (from memory) when he starts getting too far ahead in the game. But who did they mean to fill that power vaccum? That might give us a clue.

Also, now that Galad is in charge, anyone working against him might be an obvious friend of the dark.

Also, a few posts ago we were debating the 'Good' character that would shock us and turn out to be dark. From the last post discussions, it could very well be Jain Farstrider - but hopefully he'll do an Ingtar and come back to the light before the very end!
Tasneem Gould
47. Latecomer
Also YAY for no more word verification. Some of those images leave me cross-eyed!
Antoni Ivanov
48. tonka
@ 42 Whitecloaks are not even nearly as powerful as the Seanchan or the Aes Sedai. Not even close to. How can you compare a armies of hundreds thousands and thousands of channelers (the Seanchan) to the Whitcloaks who even in their best days I doubt they has an army bigger than 50 thousand.Galad leads 7000 and we know that whatever is left with Asunsawa is less than that. Niall was thinking that he will send 7,8 thousand in Andor to chase out the Dragon Reborn .. he consider that a relatively big army. Maybe he is hiding as one of the Whitecloaks but I find it unlikely , he doesn't like to involve himself directly , he likes to use proxies rather. I guess we are going to find out when the books come out.
Antoni Ivanov
49. tonka

Elaida foretold that "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

She doesn't realize that she is not the Amyrlin of the foretelling .
Andrew Lovsness
50. drewlovs
I never bought into the arguement that Elayne would bond Rand against his will. The one thing we all have to remember is Rand's feelings towards her (in Elayne's mind) were completely known. SHE was the one playing the love you, love you not game.

In my opinion, this was the moment for Elayne that it was time to grow up and "get it done", so to speak. She realized she needed the connection to him, and with the knowledge she gained from bonding Brig, she knew how important said bond is. Remember, these ar two people who truly care for one another; and further, Elayne might take too many baths and complain too much about weak tea, but her heart is full of kindness. Bonding someone against their will is WAY out of character.

Here is why I say this: if Elayne in this scene is talking from an angry point of view, I don't think the bonding she has in mind would be the first thought. Boxing ears, gathering the SGs to put him in his place... these seem like the ideas she would have if she were angry. Bonding him after seeing the changes he made to her home gives me the impression that she feels he needs direction. I could be wrong, but it just makes sense to me.

As to who the Aei Sedai wanted for AS, I had NO idea until they saw Egwene in and demanded her return. I knew instinctively that if they knew she was pretending to be Aei Sedai, Elayne and Nynaeve would already be paying for the same crime.

At least for me, I knew at that point Egwene was meant to be a puppet, and a tie to Rand for the rebel Aei Sedai that the Tower Aei Sedai could only drool over.
Tasneem Gould
51. Latecomer
Another irrelevant comment on a previous post - Prolouge. Demandred thinks a few times at the start of his trip that there are only 3 prisoners to make the blades as opposed to the scores he has seen on every other trip and the 'Myydraal must be gnashing their teeth'.

Does that mean things are'nt going as well for the dark as they would like? Will the hordes of Trollocs etc that we are expecting going to materialise after all?

I'm comparing this with LOTR where we constantly see the Dark side building up massive powerful armies - its meant to build up a sense of overwhelming danger and menace. There isn't an equivalent feeling in WOT even as of KOD. Sure, there are evil plans afoot - but hardly feels like the overwhelming sense of doom that Min's 'sparks' viewing gives us.

If anything, we're learning about how incompetant/ ineffective even the most dangerous Forsaken have been rendered. Trollocs die when they try to use the ways, and the light side keeps coming up with new cool weapons in every fight. The biggest danger to the light side is their own miscommunication and petty distractions.

I want to be more scared!
Wannabe Asha'man
52. longtimefan
Thank you Leigh for asking about a separate space for spoiler laden conversations about the Gathering Storm.

I hope that it gives people a place to reveal their personal OMG moments so the other forms can continue with some decorum.

I know that I will be reading that section with interest.

I am in Oregon on a tight budget right now so I will get the Gathering Storm for Christmas but I so very much want to know more now. :)
Rob Munnelly
53. RobMRobM
Wow - I finally made Hot Bookmarks on Tor.Com for no. 41!! Thanks, Pablo! You are the best moderator ever, except maybe for Torie when she is on duty. Rob
Marcus W
54. toryx
Fiddler @ 44:

So the Whitecloaks have no use. Not enough to start posing as one of them.

Oh really? The Whitecloaks have been sowing Chaos for months if not years, already, just playing games with Almoth Plain and Tarabon. Everything they've done (or not done) with the Dragonsworn has contributed to the madness going on there.

Then, of course, there's the whole riot mess in Tanchico which was also set off in large part by Whitecloak presence.

Not to mention that no matter what city or country they're in (excepting Tar Valon, of course), people clear out of their way so that they can walk through crowded streets unmolested.

I don't actually think that Demandred is hanging out there either but to say Whitecloaks have no use? That's just not true. The Forsaken aren't just concerned with Channelers or Bel'al wouldn't have set up shop in Power-forbidden Tear. They're concerned with a lot more than what they think of as Aes Sedai children.
Wannabe Asha'man
55. Lsana
@44 Fiddler, 48 tonka,

The Whitecloaks are certainly less powerful than the Seanchan or the White Tower, at least in pure asskicking ability (in terms of politics and ability to influence, I think they outdo at least the Seanchan). However, I would argue that they are more powerful than Andor, Illian, or Tear, each of which became the base of a Forsaken. Yeah, I'm sure any Forsaken would prefer a powerbase consisting mostly of channelers, but that aren't too many of those going around in Randland, especially if you are a man. The Black Tower is the only possibility, and it didn't exist for most of the series while the Forsaken were setting up their bases.

Given a choice between controlling the Aes Sedai and controlling the Whitecloaks, I would probably choose the Aes Sedai. Given a choice between controlling Andor, a country that can't even hold it's own borders, and controlling the Whitecloaks, an organization that completely rules one nation and holds considerable sway over many others, I'd take the Whitecloaks.
Wannabe Asha'man
56. eurorandlander
@20 Leighdb

Again, thanks for the fab commentary and summaries. Do you also do grad school texts or business documents?

Though my opinion carries no weight, I think you should get a break for your two weeks of non-spoilerage.

Also, feel free to encourage the Überlords to get the new release date in Europe, or at least Cork, Ireland. Just in case, you know, any of us are there that week.
Wannabe Asha'man
57. b holla
I wonder if Rand's 'to live you must die' possibly refers to him dying, but being attached to the Horn.

Wannabe Asha'man
58. Tabernerus
Re: characters dying, and RJ dropping hints of Nynaeve healing death, and all of that ...

I've thought since I read Lord of Chaos for the first time that we were probably going to see all of the main-line characters and their spouses/partners make it through to the end of the main story. Who knows what shape they'll be in, but I really believe that Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Tuon, Faile, Gawyn, Thom, Lan, and Moiraine will be alive at the end of the story. I don't know when I twigged to Moiraine not being dead - maybe she was a later addition to the list - but she'll stay alive once rescued.

On the other hand, pretty much every last secondary character could die before the story ends and I wouldn't be surprised.

Morgase and Galad? Oh, good chance of toastiness there. Alivia? I wouldn't sign a long-term lease. Amys? It'll make me cry, but I think she's upbraided her last moping clan chief. Sorilea and Cadusane? It'll be a spectacular fight, but they're both hosed. Sheriam? Seriously? That woman walks around with a big neon gravestone over her head half the time! Berelain? Let's just say Mayene should have a long-term plan for corporate governance that doesn't involve high-split skirts already in place.

Bascially, I think RJ is a sucker for lover stories. Any character with even a tenuous love story plot thread dangling off them stands a solid chance of surviving the storm in some way. Anyone who is currently single is in trouble. Hmm, so maybe Morgase and Amys might make it through, yet. Huh.
Wannabe Asha'man
59. svmoe
For what it is worth, I believe that the "worst case scenario" of the nightmare was actually a trap set by Slayer... I am a bit fuzzy on the details, but Nynaeve mentions seeing someone who looks like Rand leaving the White Tower, and later (I think in another book) we get a POV from Slayer remembering leaving a present for some Aes Sedai in TAR... but I could be wrong...
60. Freelancer

It says Demandred is "pretty sure" she was Elayne Trakand. So I ask, why is Demandred in the Caemlyn Palace in T'a'R? Very often, when a forsaken pops out of hiding after someone else leaves a place in T'a'R, they have been following that person. If Demandred had been following Elayne, he'd be completely sure who she was before this scene. So I presume he wasn't following her, which means he had another motive for being there. I don't have a clue what it is, unless he's trying to review what happened to Rahvin. Lots of guesses, nothing solid.

Now the foundational question. What could Demandred hope to gain by manufacturing a throne in the T'a'R version of the Caemlyn Palace? Does he want Rand to appear arrogant or power-hungry? That seems to already be the public sentiment about the DR. Does he suspect the relationship between Elayne and Rand? Not based on this text.

Here's how I perceive this scene. Demandred, for whatever reason, is already there in T'a'R. Elayne zips by(remember this is a quick side-trip from the WT after the nightmare scene, not her original destination), sees the ugly dragon throne and asks what he thinks he's doing, meaning to or with Andor. She decides he'll be her warder, says "It will be done", and moves along. Demandred deduces it is Elayne, because he knows she can channel and she is the Daughter-Heir, so her words make sense, except he probably thinks her last spoken comment is about her kicking the DR out of her palace. That would be the feeble pull on a yanked thread of chaos he considers, that Rand will have an unhappy princess to deal with, who wants to oust him from her land.

In all of that, I just can't find a useful reason for Demandred to create the dragon throne in T'a'R with the goal of increasing chaos. Oh, and solid objects don't need to be in place a long time to be reflected in T'a'R.
Sydo Zandstra
61. Fiddler
Oh really? The Whitecloaks have been sowing Chaos for months if not years, already, just playing games with Almoth Plain and Tarabon. Everything they've done (or not done) with the Dragonsworn has contributed to the madness going on there.

You are assuming the Whitecloaks were at the base of the initial discord there, while it was a civil war. Would things have been less mad there without Whitecloaks around?

Then, of course, there's the whole riot mess in Tanchico which was also set off in large part by Whitecloak presence.

Tanchico was a mess even without Whitecloak presence there. It wasn't set off by them. The only thing they did was securing the palace. Which was controlled by Black Ajah Sisters btw.

Not to mention that no matter what city or country they're in (excepting Tar Valon, of course), people clear out of their way so that they can walk through crowded streets unmolested.

Of course single citizens move out of Whitecloak's way. I would. But do you think that a ruler would accept Whitecloaks taking over in their country? Do you think Neighbouring rulers would not help out there, in order to keep Whitecloaks out?

Therefore, The Whitecloaks aren's as powerful as they seem, and they know it. Why else do you think they only park before Tar Valon and not in other countries? They know AS will ignore them.
Sydo Zandstra
62. Fiddler
@60 Freelancer:

I'll get back on that. Bedtime for me now, since I'm in Uropia.

We're not done yet ;)
63. Freelancer
Looking back at Leigh's commentary...
Also rather awesome, surprisingly, is Morvrin, who has a dry comeback for Siuan with her limbs bent the wrong way. Dude.
It occurs to me that, once they are out of the soup, Aes Sedai can be very jaded, and therefore nonchalant about bodily suffering, since just about everyone else in the room would know how to Heal her. I think that diminishes the awesome a tad.
Nathan Martin
64. lerris
Freelancer @60

Of course Demandred's in TAR in Caemlyn. He's been camping in the Palace wine cellar for the last couple books :)
Ron Garrison
65. Man-0-Manetheran
Thoughts re. Demandred "hanging around" the throne room. Maybe it was HE who was hanging around when Asmodean wandered down the hallway looking for wine. "You!" Demandred certainly had motive to kill him as a traitor.

Re. Elayne - Whenever she seems imperious and pushy, I just remember that she was born and raised to be a queen. The girl just can't help it!
Greg Bloom
66. MuleHeadedLummox
Latecomer @51

The reason the Fades have so few prisoners is because the Dark One has been stopped them from raiding borderland villages for prisoners. This doesn't mean that we still won't see hordes of them in Tarmon Gai'don. In fact, the reduction in raids may turn out to be key in coming books.

Because of the reduced number of Trolloc raids, the borderland kings and queens felt safe taking a large chunk of their armies south. They believe they have left enough troops to defend the border for anything short of the second coming of the Trolloc wars, which is probably what is going to happen come Tarmon Gai'don. Not only that, but now the men left behind to defend the Blight border are probably being reduced even futher due to Nynaeve's plan to protect Lan. After all, every man who joins up to follow Lan to Tarwin's Gap will be one less man in the already decreased defencive forces of the borderlands. So unless the DO plans to have his entire army of shadowspawn massed at Tarwin's Gap, the borderlands are in big trouble.
Maiane Bakroeva
67. Isilel
AS getting a bad case of brainrot and annoyingness. Seriously, I'd have thought that at least the Brown would be interested in T'AR for it's own sake... And Sheriam sure seemed much more intelligent back when she was introduced than from now on.

Elayne and Siuan are awesome, of course. Also, one has to give the AS their due - they bounce back up from very traumatic situations very quickly.

I always thought that this wasn't just a random nightmare, though, but a trap left for them by Mesaana or somebody else. After all, we see lots of Forsaken et al. spying on SGs in T'AR - the collective visits to T'AR-WT may have attracted unwanted attention.

As to Beonin, she was Elaida's agent from the start, wasn't she? Sent to sow discord and to prevent any meaningful action from the SAS. And she seemed to be succeeding, until Siuan and Leane arrived and pulled the rug from under her feet.

Re: monstrous dragon throne - it did exist. Arymilla or Elenia had it made, IIRC. Rand later destroyed it in a fit of temper.
Tasneem Gould
68. Latecomer
66 - MHL - thanks for the reply! I love your name. Although you could have just written 'Male' and all the women here would have translated that as "Mule Headed Lummox" anyway :D

59 - SVMov - Good catch, I remember noting this whilst reading the chapter!
Kerwin Miller
69. tamyrlink
IIRC the chair still exists cuz i just finished reading PoD and he has it in his rooms before the rooms are destroyed.

i always liked this chapter. its one of my fav parts of rereading it. also you have to give the AS credit. even tho they didnt listen they still stood and tried to fight it at least.

i thought Morvrins line was funny too lol.

freelancer @ 63 that still doesnt change the fact that they recovered fairly quickly tho. enuf to trade quips. other ppl (with knowledge that Healing is around the corner or not) would be left in sobbing heaps on the floor and have to be taken out of TAR. besides they go thru stuff like that during their test for AS and maybe even for Accepted depending on the person.

i dont recall slayer saying he had left something for anyone in TAR. i remember him saying he killed a gray man in the tower tho (whether the one in sheriams bed or the hallway i cant remember)

i dont think sheriam is a darkfriend. turned or by choice.

i never twigged that they were discussing egwene either when the AS first step into the dream.

and i never caught the set by Ny for the nightmare either till now.

66 @ MHL - i think Lan will be gathering ppl like that guy she spoke to. ppl with fighting experience, ex soldiers, merchants, etc to go help Lan. i really doubt that soldiers will leave their garrisons and the like to go follow Lan to tarwins gap. i mean i would hope that Borderlander soldiers have more sense than that!

65 @ man-o-manetheran - re: elayne. AS are already all imperious and pushy. if you throw her being raised to be a queen into it, she'll be as bad as Kiruna!

phew that was a lot to type
Roger Powell
70. forkroot
Are you confusing the chair in Caemlyn with a chair in the Sun Palace in Cairhien? The latter is where rooms are destroyed when Rand is attacked by rebel Asha'man.

If you are right about couples surviving, then perhaps Galad and Berelain have a better chance, since the consensus is that Min's viewing has them hooking up.
Tess Laird
71. thewindrose
From A Threat In LoC: Min PoV-
He sat(Rand) on a great gilded throne that seemed made entirely of Dragons. {...} Another throne stood on a tall pedestal behind him, gilded also, but with a lion picked out in white gemstones against red.
So there is a Dragon throne for Rand in Caemlyn.
Abraham Park
72. Abe
Oh gosh, Nynaeve, please don't resurrect Rand's three day corpse back to life. You're not Neo, and this isn't the Matrix, capice?
Wannabe Asha'man
73. Planeswalker
Ah! Now i get what you guys meant by "choss"!

Well I should say, in Leigh's re-read, we're all 'chossing' around here! :)
Jay Dauro
74. J.Dauro
Tabernerus @58

I think you are missing a romance to come - Galad and Berelain (The prophecy of her falling for a man in white.)

And of course Morgase and "young" Tallanvor.

But I think you are right, twue luv will out.
john mullen
75. johntheirishmongol
I have my own little theory about Rand. The prophecy says his blood on the rocks of Shayul Ghul, and I think this will have to do with the two encapsalated wounds that will open and mingle together. I don't know if he actually dies or not, because they have all assumed that was his fate for so long. I also think that Fain plays a major part in the final battle.

Who dies? Good question. I really hope Brandon Sanderson doesnt up the death toll (I enjoyed his books but I hate killing off the protagonists at the end).

So..I really think this is a poll question. We know a few have to live beyond because of the viewings of Min and that means Elayne and Aviendha (though not necessarily Min) will live.

So post 3 major characters who will die before the end of the series and I will tally them up and post results. By major I include anyone of the top 25 or so group which includes the original group of 7 and any of their close family or retainers.

I will add my 3 at the end.
Antoni Ivanov
77. tonka
Bashere, Cadsuane and Verin.

But really I have only top two - Bashere, Cadsuane.
Maybe I'll think of proper third later.

Bashere to clear the path for Faile and Perrin to the Saldean Crown (if Saldea exists after the Last Battle) and Cadsuane to get her deserved rest and die like the legendary Aes Sedai she is. Well Verin was pretty random choice.
Wannabe Asha'man
78. birgit
I finished reading PoD recently, and when Elayne entered the Throne Room in Caemlyn, she was looking for the monstrous throne she saw in this chapter. It wasn't there.

Rand sits on the throne when he first talks to Dyelin and her companions. LoC 16

For a while there is no one within the white tower with a POV, so does anyone remember when Pain Fain comes in? Is he 'advising' Elaida at this stage?

Fain leaves the Tower after Alviarin catches him stealing the Dagger. tFoH 19

You are assuming the Whitecloaks were at the base of the initial discord there, while it was a civil war. Would things have been less mad there without Whitecloaks around?

Carridin's Whitecloaks disguise as people from the enemy land and destroy villages to stir up the civil war because Niall wants to make Almoth a Whitecloak nation. tDR prologue
Helen Peters
79. Helen
“As I have Foretold,” she intoned. “The White Tower will be reunited under me. Under me!”

I was reading the comments and yes this could have been her dreaming of a true foretelling. Isn't that what Eg is doing, uniting the tower? Elaida is still the Amyrlin, so technically it is still under her, just not her doing it. She's just mucked up the interpretation, yet again.

For the survey: Cadsuane - coz she's old and I don't lover her as much as the rest and so I think she'll make good cannon fodder for the good guy side.
Bashere (and his missus) to make way for Perrin and Faile, though that means Tenobia is gone also.
And one to really pull the heart strings - Rhuarc. Or are the Aiel top brass 'safe' coz Rand 'sent' Mangin to his death? I'll be upset if he does die (hang on, it's just a book, right?), but I think he's the easiest way to assuage the guilt of not killing off any of the main characters. He's been aroung for 8 (??) books now, he saved the SGs when they got caught, we know his background, his relationship with Avi, his wives, he's one of Rand's most trusted advisors, sorry, I've got a feeling he's walking round strapped to a target.
Maiane Bakroeva
80. Isilel
For the "who will die" survey:

Siuan and Bryne

So, yea, couldn't pick 3 only 4 :).

For the record, I don't think it improbable that one main character will die also. IMHO Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene are all likely possibilities since we know that Mat and Rand won't and that Rand's women will be there to help him survive.

Of course, there will be a new Breaking to survive too, once TG is done...
Wannabe Asha'man
81. Junko
Is it just me who is bothered by Rand's polygamy? Or by the women's acceptance of it as if its the most natural thing in the world?

Three women sharing a man is as worse as three women fighting over one.
Antoni Ivanov
82. tonka

Maybe, It doesn't bother me certainly. It's people's choice. I believe that every person has the choice to live his or her life as she or he wishes as long they are not hurting themselves or someone else.
Kerwin Miller
83. tamyrlink
nah im not confusing them. i was just thinking at some point of screen or whatever he took the chair from caemlyn to the sun palace as it was in his rooms when it was destroyed. i never really paid attention to the chairs lol. but i dont think he had two of them is all im sayin.
Josh Davis
84. YoSoyElJosh
In regards to Nynaeve's healing death (which has been hinted at for a while, but I actually don't recall a mention after this book):

I see her a likely healing Rand, or Lan. Initially, I'd believed she'd be the one to resurrect Rand, but there's no place for her in many of the foretellings that seem attached to his death. Doesn't rule her out, of course, but it might leave her open to be somewhere else.

She might Travel over to Tarwin's Gap after the Last Battle, and find the Malkieri mourning. Rage, sorrow, saidar, resurrection. Or not. But I'll be a bit disappointed if she doesn't resurrect anyone.

For Rand, being attached the Horn is one way to go about it. I thought it might be more likely that he is pulled back out of T'A'R in Birgette fashion, though that might leave him fairly weak. Would explain the necessity of his three ladies on the ship watching over him, but not completely. Someone else may be able to flush that theory out a little more.

For my list of three that will die at the Last Battle?

Bashere, Lan, and Cadsuane seem likely choices in my mind. Unless Lan is brought back by Nynaeve, as theoried above. Then I'd choose Rhuarc.
Tess Laird
85. thewindrose
Survey says: All of the Forsaken(what ever bodies they inhabit),Padan Fain, the DO will be sealed off like he was never there - does that mean everyone will forget about the DO?
Ohhh - you mean the Go Light Team:
Bashere and family except for Faile of course
And Bela - the creators avatar will no longer be needed as the Go Light Team wins:)
Marcus W
86. toryx
junko @ 81:

It bothers some people, based on comments to other chapters but it surely doesn't bother me. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with it. Although at this point it's not polygamy. Rand hasn't married any of them yet. Polyamory is more like it. On his side, at least.


Honestly, I don't know. Any votes I could make would be random guesses. And frankly, I don't think I really care. Mainly because I doubt that anyone I care about will actually die.

I will say this, however: I don't think there's going to be another Breaking after Tarmon Gaidon. I think the breaking will occur before it, and it's going to be primarily geopolitical in nature rather than geophysical. It's already happening.

I do think Tabernerus @ 58 is right on with RJ's feelings about love stories. It's hard for me to imagine anyone weeping for their lover.
Lord Haart
87. LordHaart
Re: Demandred. The only way this scene makes sense is if he is personally following Rand. We've seen him use proxies (Masema almost certainly, Asunawa likely), but in person he would need to be doing something substantial. I see two possibilities:

1) Borderlands. We here about strange fights in the BL, despite the blight being quiet.
2) Personally going about business, likely following Rand. Orchestrating Demira Sedia's forthcoming death etc - which means he might be planted with the Aiel.

Oh, and I'm 100% certain that in TSR, Rand's Callandor scene when he tried to resurrect the little girl was ample evidence that we will NOT see Nynaeve able to do that; Jordan is clearly adverse to the idea. If anyone is raised, it will be Pet Semetary style zombie fun where the person is soulless and evil. Or worse, she might accidentally bring the DO back to life after Rand defeats him. Now THAT would be an unexpected twist.
Rob Munnelly
88. RobMRobM
Re Nyneave and healing. Recall the text - it is in the context of trying to heal someone who is burned out. If it foreshadows anything, it is that Nyneave or an Ashaman will heal Setalle (aka Martine whatever her name is, the ex AS who specialized in tergreal.) No doubt Mat will drop his charges off in Camelyn before heading to the ToG, and I for one am looking forward to the fun when the tergreal girls - Elayne, Avi and Setalle (healed or not) - get together and begin to do interesting things with their toys. Rob
James Jones
89. jamesedjones
88 RobMRobM


You might want to edit that last line. :P
Rob Munnelly
90. RobMRobM
Death pool

- Bashere and Tenobia
- Lord Angelmar
- All of the Aiel clan chiefs and at least half of the Wise Women - toast in the first wave of TG.
- Min - even though I'd be unhappy about that.

Lan will definitely survive - baby with sword vision in EOTW is his kid with Nyn after they survive TG.

Tam will survive because he is such a good guy and been screwed so badly since EOTW that his survival is necessary for a happy ending.

Rob Munnelly
91. RobMRobM
@89 - some of us need to get their minds out of the gutter. Really now. :-)

92. Hopper
1) Tam
2) Almost all the Aiel (I took remnant of a remnant to be just Avi's babies)
3) Juilin

Anthony Pero
93. anthonypero
Three major characters to die?

How 'bout

3)The DO

These characters are sacrosanct and will live longer and through more rediculous circumstances than Han, Leia and Luke, while their children bite the dust, lol:

1) Rand (not saying he won't die, just that he won't "really" die. There's dead, and then there's mostly dead (thank you Billy Crystal)
2) Perrin
3) Matt
4) SGs
5) Aviehnda
6) Min
7) Lan
8) Gawyn
9) Galad
10) Thom

It's ridiculous.
Greg Hollingsworth
94. artifex
Rand ("To Live, You Must Die.")
Bashere (The something dark in Min's viewing is death looming?)
Min (I cannot think of any reason she would need to survive.)

@93 I agree; Rand will probably only be mostly dead.
Greg Hollingsworth
95. artifex
Dragon Throne:
Was the dragon throne destroyed in KOD* the same one here?
When El comes back to claim the throne the dragon monstrosity is gone, IIRC

I've been rushing through my re-read, trying to finish before Dragon*Con and didn't really pay that much attention to the throne. But while reading these comments I sort of wish I had.

* Or was it an earlier book...
96. Hopper

Well as long as its for true love, he deserves to come back to life ;)

...Although perhaps this means Mat's desire to bluff will be his doom
Sam Mickel
97. Samadai

If you are anywhere near Eugene OR I would be happy to loan you my copy of tGS when I am done reading it. So by Nov 1st at the latest
Richard Boye
98. sarcastro
Helen @79

“As I have Foretold,” she intoned. “The White Tower will be reunited under me. Under me!”

I was reading the comments and yes this could have been her dreaming of a true foretelling. Isn't that what Eg is doing, uniting the tower? Elaida is still the Amyrlin, so technically it is still under her, just not her doing it. She's just mucked up the interpretation, yet again.

Now there's a thought.

Although Elaida's pronouncement would seem to lack the dense, poetic syntax of what we have seen in all the Fortellings, perhaps this one is playfully obvious.

By which I mean, Egwene is quietly rousing opposition to Elaida, and garnering admiration for herself, all while Elaida lords it over them all in megalomanical obliviousness from her study very high up in the Tower.

In a sense, the Tower is being united under her.

Wannabe Asha'man
99. CalaLily
I LIIIIIIIIVE! *rises, Mushu-like, from the mists*

Anywho, to jump right back into the convo!

Those who Die:

Whooo boy. *ahem*

1) NOT Min. Nicola kinda debunks that with her Fortelling about "the lion sword, the dedicated spear, and she who sees beyond" being on that boat with Rand. She lives long enough to see Our Hero bite the dust.

2. Bashere. I'll give you that. I think Bashere is either going to fall in battle or a Grey Man's gonna get him. I kind of find the whole "Lets move Perrin and Faile to ROYAL status" a little "eh". It better be well-done, s'all I'm saying.

3. Gawyn. Actually, I'm not too sure about this one, but in LoC, at Dumai's Wells, Gawyn says something along the lines of "I will see you die, one day." to Rand. For some reason, it just hit me that Gawyn HAS to die. How this ties in with Egwene's dreams I don't know, so this could be easily debunked. Then again, it could also be why she's rescued by a woman and not her knight in shining armor.

4. Rand. I take the whole "To live, you must die." Psuedo-prophecy to mean that in order to be reborn in future Turnings he has to die. Not be balefired. Plain old, boring, everyday death.

5. A whole Waste-load of Aiel. Knowing them, they're probably front-line. Does not bode well for the continuation of the culture. Hopefully Aviendha isn't the ONLY one who survives, because otherwise, yikes.

6. A whole Seanchan-load of Seanchan. I hate these guys. Their culture grates me to the bone, and I would much rather have them OUT OUT OUT. Or, at least, their main fighting force, in which case Randland will assimilate all of the colonists. Sort of a weird soupmix of some Seanchan and decidedly NOT Seanchan.

Any others? I dunno, I have to think. I have to go to work, so I might think of something later.

Things I want to see:

A sort of Steampunkish Age after the last Battle, in which knowledge lost since the AoL is relearned by the channelers and a cool steam-powered everyone-else Age is discovered by that school in Cairhien.

Tuon's first sight of ACTUAL Shadowspawn. Poor woman thinks they're children's tales.

Mat and Tuon's reaction to finding out Bode is going to be a pretty powerful Aes Sedai. Bode finding out her brother is sleeping with the enemy.

Again, s'all I got right now. xD This thing is crazy long as it is.
Marcus W
100. toryx
On a complete side note, in my own re-read I just finished CoS. And I have to say, that was probably one of the most disappointing endings of all the novels. It was so...bleh.

Of course, I don't even remember how PoD ends, so I could be wrong and posting again in utter disgust when I get around to finishing that one.
James Jones
101. jamesedjones
99 CalaLily

"Mat and Tuon's reaction to finding out Bode is going to be a pretty powerful Aes Sedai. Bode finding out her brother is sleeping with the enemy."

That I would love to see.

Tuon: My newest damane says she knows you, Matrim.

Mat: Oh, light, Tuon! You have to let her go.

Tuon: Why would I ever do that?

Mat: Because my mother will kill me if you don't.
Wannabe Asha'man
102. longtimefan

Thank you for your kind offer. I am in Downtown Portland. That may be a bit far. :) For those of you not in Oregon it is a two hour drive in which you pass the 45 parallel.
Rob Munnelly
103. RobMRobM
james@101. Bravo - well played. I'm more interested in Rand's response once he sits down with Tuon to talk how to coordinate forces for TG.

Tuon: I must insist that my husband lead the forces of the Light.

Rand: That is not acceptable (tries to pound his hand on table and misses).

Tuon: If you agree, my husband promises he'll let you watch when he sets a badger loose in the middle of the Bel Tine festivities next to the Winespring Inn....
Wannabe Asha'man
104. OldWoman
Samadai, I also live in Eugene. Lots of interest in fantasy here.
105. Hopper
@102: Portland FTW!

I love that place.

Oh and to make this post relevant to this forum... I'd love to see some cool stuff come out of the Cairhienen school be used for the last battle!
Lord Haart
108. LordHaart
Death Pool:

Morgase (but NOT Tallanvor).
Egwene (but NOT Gawyn - he will try and kill Rand, and Egwene will play the old "jump-in-front-of-your-blade" card and die).
Elayne, in childbirth. The foreshadowing here is insane, Mrs "I can't die yet because of prophecy". Dyelin will succeed.
Verin - in achieving her 70-year plan, makes the ultimate sacrifice.
Mat. I know this is almost impossible, but I imagine him making a massive gamble for his life and losing. Just before he dies, he realises that although he lost the gamble for his life, in doing so, he saves the life of Tuon and/or Randland.
Amys and/or Bair, because when Egwene succeeds, her mentor will die.
Logain is going to die in a futile effort to stop Taim, and Rand will experience an anagnorisis, realising that he should have listened more closely.
Sheriam will die by betraying the secret of her abuser.

Pool of life:
Nynaeve and Lan
Rand - not from resurrection, but because he outsmarts the DO somehow and wins legitimately (well, maybe cheating a little).
At least 1 forsaken - Graendal or Demandred IMO.
Moiraine & Thom, though there will be tragedy later when Thom dies of old age while Moiraine stays young. No, I don't think Thom can channel, though Flinn & Owyn make it possible he might learn.
Bashere. He might turn out to be a DF, but he's certainly intelligent enough to stay alive. If he dies, it will likely be so that he can join the Heroes of the Horn. But I doubt his wife will let him die so easily. :P
Perrin & Faile. I don't think both would die, and they definitely can't live without each other.
Taim lives, for sure.
Wannabe Asha'man
109. douglasm
Mat and Tuon are known to definitely survive because they are the main characters of the outrigger trilogy Jordan had planned. Kind of hard to write a story about "Mat and Tuon going back to Seanchan and fixing Semirhage's mess" without both of them surviving the end of the main series.
Tasneem Gould
110. Latecomer
RobMRobM@103 - lmao!!!!! X 2 :D

"(tries to pound his hand on table and misses). " Classic!

People who will die:

ALL of the Aeil with Rand. The Shaido going back to the waste are the remnant of a remnant.

Bashere - I agree that Perrin & Faile need to go up in the 'nobility' ranks but am sad about it. Faile would be an awesome queen, but Perrin is such a crap sort of Lord, even after all her coaching. The only way this would work is if Faile is the ruler and Perrin is just the consort - most likely to be how it works in Saladea anyway.

Logain - his dying will be what brings him Glory.
Tasneem Gould
111. Latecomer
Re. Rand fighting at Shayol Ghul

What if Alanna/ Elayne/ Aviendha die while he is fighting the DO? He'll have a massive backlash due to the bonding and I hate to think how that would affect the fight?
Marcus W
112. toryx
LordHaart @ 108:

Elayne, in childbirth. The foreshadowing here is insane, Mrs "I can't die yet because of prophecy". Dyelin will succeed.

Light, that'd be awesome. I'd cheer.

douglasm @ 109:

Mat and Tuon are known to definitely survive because they are the main characters of the outrigger trilogy Jordan had planned.

Maybe. It's always possible that Jordan changed his mind before the end. He was known to do that, from time to time. And I've always wondered if that whole outrigger trilogy idea was just a massive red herring to throw people off.

I don't think there are any real guarantees.
113. Shadow_Jak
Mat and Tuon's reaction to finding out Bode is going to be a pretty powerful Aes Sedai. Bode finding out her brother is sleeping with the enemy.

Providing, of course, that he ever does!
Sam Mickel
114. Samadai
i dont speak for everyone here but I at least dont want to witness you easing the badger
Rob Munnelly
115. RobMRobM
@114. Nah, I'll just put it in the back of the choss hauler.
Wannabe Asha'man
116. alreadymadwithmatntuon
Shadow_Jak @113
Providing, of course, that he ever does!
Does what? Find out Bode is going to be powerful or sleep with Tuon?
Sam Mickel
117. Samadai

its nice to know theres more than me here.


It would be no problem if you want I make it to portland 1 to 2 times a week on business.
just a thought not being pushy
Antoni Ivanov
118. tonka
Mat knows that Bode is going to be Aes Sedai , Rand told him. He is even thinking about that.
Rob Munnelly
119. RobMRobM
Guess sleep with Tuon it is. Hope Mat remembers to take his pipe out beforehand. R
Jane Smyth
120. Kaboom

When the bore is sealed and there's no longer an influence from the DO, how long will the dark friends or forsakens (if any survives) have a bad influence on the world? Will they turn back to the light? What will be their effect on the post DO world?
121. Freelancer

The Min viewing of a baby with a sword is Lan, his past, not a prophecy. He was carried out of dying Malkier as an infant, already annointed Dai'shan, with the sword, the ring, the locket, and the Pledge.

None of which speaks to whether Lan lives or dies vis-a-vis Tar'mon Gai'don.

Cadsuane will fall in a last, legendary, heroic confrontation that saves many lives.

Maybe Logain, though I doubt Min's viewing of glory is simply an honorable death in battle.

Davram/Demira Bashere & Tenobia have become a consensus.

None of the "first team" characters dies, except that Rand has to be "only mostly dead" for three days, to complete the Nynaeve foreshadow and the 'Finn answer. ("It would take a miracle! Not for true love, but to repay Humperdink, err, the DO for his evil")
Kurt Lorey
122. Shimrod
@120 Kaboom.

All of the "lucky" ones will get to go with the DO.
Wannabe Asha'man
123. longtimefan

It is a very nice thought. I do not think you are being pushy. When November draws closer we can make general statements about locations in Portland where we may be hanging around. :)

As for who may stay and who may go with the last Battle.

I will vote for

Cadsuane, as a good character the death will probably be doing something sigificant for the Light. It would be out of character to the storytelling for her to just pass away in her sleep. (although she is old enough)

Taim, because Logian will kill him to gain part of his great glory. (perhaps)
If Mat killed Couladin instead of Rand then Logian can kill Taim for Rand.

Basel Gil, because it will make people sad without unraveling any key or even minor plot lines. He is the great and loyal innkeeper but there is no directly referenced family to go home to or character involvment once he finishes the Morgase storyline. (the Perrin subplot is handy but does anyone think that he and Lini are going down the true love lane?)
Rob Munnelly
124. RobMRobM
Free@121. I respectfully disagree. We have RJ's commentaries that Min's visions are supposed to be forward looking. It would make poetic and dramatic sense for the vision to apply to the next King of Malkier after the kingdon is reestablished.

I do understand the RJ is not perfect with the vision thing. I'm still bothered by the Thom vision in EOTW re juggling fire and the White Tower, as it seems to fit Owyn and then would be backwards looking -- and I can't think of a forward looking vision that would work. I also am aware of the Davred Hanlon prophecy which talks about horrible murderous things and also looks back to past murders, but that can be explained as related to a future vision. But having the vision apply to Lan Jr. is at least as plausible as applying to Lan himself - and I will be shocked, shocked, if he kicks during TG.

Agree with you on Cadsuane. Could well happen. Also agree that Logain dying is possible but a longshot in light of the glory prophecy.

Tess Laird
125. thewindrose
Freelancer - RJ is quoted as saying all of Min's views are of the future:
Q78- Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the 7 towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.
Jason Lyman
126. jlyman
@124 RobM

the Thom vision in EOTW re juggling fire and the White Tower

Maybe it refers to his stint in everyone's favorite ringleader,... er, ringmaster Valan Luca's show. He did juggle fire while there (although that might be too literal of an event judging from her other visions) and you might say he was also juggling his responsibilities to Nyneave and Elayne who were on the White Tower's errand. But then I may be grasping at straws with that. Just the first thing that popped into my head.
Maiane Bakroeva
127. Isilel
RobMRobM @124:

I'm still bothered by the Thom vision in EOTW re juggling fire and the White Tower

Well, as Thom will marry Moiraine and presumably also become her Warder the WT in the future is relatively clear, IMHO.

As to the man juggling fire - maybe Thom learns to channel and gets rejuvenated by OP usage? Or maybe it is a mutual kid with Moiraine? Frankly, I also used to think that it was Owyn, but if Min's visions only concern the future...
Tess Laird
128. thewindrose
Some people were wondering about Hurin:
Week 5 Question: Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?

Robert Jordan Answers: He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn, though.
Tess Laird
129. thewindrose
So, I think Hurin will come back, do some really heroic things, get killed and join the HoV crowd.
Helen Peters
130. Helen
Thom and juggling fire and the WT.... wasn't the Moiraine rescue attempt seen by Min as Thom pulling the blue stone from fire? Or is that the one we're talking about?
Are we allowed to have 2 different visions saying the same thing? Or does Thom shield Mo from the WT somehow once rescued?
Rob Munnelly
131. RobMRobM
The problem with the Thom prophecy (as I recall) is that it refers to somebody "not him" that juggles fire and the White Tower. So...I'm completely baffled unless it somehow refers to Rand.

Re Hurin, that's a great point. He's probably with the 200K borderlands armies in Andor and will have some part to play depending on what the heck they do. Could easily be a player in the death pool so that he could become a "horny" dude, as predicted in TGH.
Rob Munnelly
132. RobMRobM
Helen@130. Two different visions, but wonder whether EOTW refers to Moiraine. Hmmn. If someone has EOTW handy, please check if it refers to he or him in relation to the other person. If not, hmmmm.
Sam Mickel
133. Samadai
Why can't it refer to Rand. We know Thom cares about Rand and he does whatever he can to help him. We also know that Rand was juggling with the power and the two groups of Aes Sedai
Rob Munnelly
134. RobMRobM
FYI - interesting post on Brandon's website today. Enjoy.


To Longtime Wheel of Time Fans
Posted on 08.20.09Categories: A Memory of Light Wheel of Time

I'm gearing up to dive back into the Wheel of Time next month. To those of you who only check the blog for WoT news, I appreciate your patience with me. I do try to incorporate things into the blog directed at you. I'm sorry there isn't more of it. This is partially because of the strict nondisclosure agreement I'm under. I fear saying much of anything because of how good the WoT community is at pulling meaning out of casual statements. And they're right a shocking amount of the time. So I've held myself back. That, unfortunately, means I often end up posting things like this:

"Gearing up to write the next WoT section; emailing Mr. Jordan's assistants about clarifications on some issues. Can't say which ones. Sorry."

That was posted to my Twitter/Facebook earlier today. (And note, if you're starved for posts, know that I do update my Twitter and Facebook pretty much every day. You can read them on my main blog too; check the left-hand sidebar on the blog page.) Anyway, I don't post such vague things to be annoying or teasing. I just feel compelled by Mr. Jordan and Harriet's wishes to restrain myself. If I tell you what I'm asking about, you'll be able to guess what I'm working on—and from that can guess what is in the second book, and from there guess the contents of the first book. Perhaps I'm too paranoid. But once the first book is out and you all know its contents, I'll let myself be more open about what is in the second book in posts and tweets.

Recently, I've found myself thinking a lot about the years when I was simply another Wheel of Time fan. This is likely due to the coming release of THE GATHERING STORM, which will be the first WoT book that I don't get to experience with the rest of the world as it is released. That puts me in a strange position.

Actually, a lot of things about this project put me in a strange position. I've become the most direct face of the Wheel of Time, with my blogging and appearances. Because of that I find myself (by design) being an advocate for the series, rather than a commentator on the series. There's a distinction there. It's no longer my place, for instance, to offer criticism on the cover art. Perhaps some would call it two-faced of me to avoid discussion of things in the series that perhaps deserve criticism; I just feel that it is my job to stand in Mr. Jordan's place, as best I can, and be respectful of his memory and the responsibility I've been given.

Still, despite this, I do find myself remembering the days when I was just a fan. I went through all of the typical WoT fandom emotions. There were times when I tore through the books, rereading them voraciously, loving every page. And yes—though I don't now talk about it often—there were times when I was annoyed with the WoT. The speed at which the series was released, the quirks of Mr. Jordan's language, the times he focused on a side character I didn't want to read about.

There would be times when I would reread through all the books—taking months and months—in order to read a new volume that just came out. And then the next one would take just long enough to come out that I'd have forgotten the details of the books. I'd feel mentally fatigued and think, "What do I do? Do I spend all of that time reading again, or do I try to read the new one without a refresher on who is who, and perhaps lose some important threads?" During those times, I would think, "Why am I subjecting myself to this? This series is overhyped."

And then I'd read the books and remember what I'd forgotten. Not just the names and plot threads; the love and the thrill of a purely majestic epic fantasy.

The Wheel of Time is one of the few series I read a lot when I was younger that made the transition to adulthood with me. Other authors—good authors—weren't able to write for both the youthful Brandon and the adult Brandon. But Jordan could do it. There is something very special about these books. I think you'll find it again when you dig back into the Wheel of Time for what is happening in October, whether you decide to read the entire series (I suggest at least reading KNIFE OF DREAMS again) or just grab THE GATHERING STORM.

Still, I guess I'm posting about this to say, "I understand. I don't feel it's right for me to agree with you most of the time when you complain. But I do understand. I've been there." I understand that some are annoyed at there being three books instead of one, I understand that some are excited about getting three books, and I understand that most of you probably feel both annoyed and excited at the same time. (This series does that to people.) I understand what it's like to defend the Wheel of Time vigorously to friends, but then find yourself saying, "I think I'll wait to read the rest of them until the thing is finally done" to other friends later in the week. I've been there. I have a friend who—each time Mr. Jordan's name was mentioned—used to raise his fist to the sky and curse. Partially in jest, partially to express his fascination and frustration at the same time. I empathized with him a lot.

But I've read the ending now. It works. It fits. A journey like this one hinges a lot on the destination. And that destination turned out to be everything I wanted it to be.

Some of you haven't ever felt these feelings; you've loved the WoT the entire time, and haven't felt a bit of frustration. Some of you have only recently discovered the series, and wonder what the fuss and frustration is about in those of us who have been reading for nearly twenty years now. To you who are like I was, I just say this. Give yourself a chance to discover the books again, and you'll remember what this is all about.
Francesco Paonessa
135. ErrantKnave
@99 and 101 What about Tuon's channeling abilities? That might hamper the whole must-leash-all-damane thing.

But I really can't wait for her to see Shadowspan. Her flat-out disbelief irks the choss out of me.
Alice Arneson
136. Wetlandernw
RobMRobM @134

Thanks!! That was great! I have to confess I don't check his blog very often, mostly because I find it visually annoying and hard to read. But it's fun to read a nice long comment on WoT, even if it doesn't say a lot. :)
Francesco Paonessa
137. ErrantKnave
@134 "I've read the ending..." Oh man, oh man, oh man... The end really exists! I'm having mixed emotions right now.
Wannabe Asha'man
138. Branwhin
Ooh, shiny! *tries not to salivate on keyboard*

I get the distinct impression that I would really, REALLY like Brandon Sanderson, should I ever have the opportunity to meet him. Not much money in the budget for books, alas, or I suspect I'd have devoured the entire Mistborn trilogy at least.

Thanks for posting this, RobM! I swear I'm more looking forward to TGS with every passing day. such a geek.

May I also say I feel myself in company made of awesome? These discussions rock.

LOC-wise, regarding Thom, I too had to be reminded that Min's visions reach only forward. I would tend, then, to think the man juggling fire is Rand - though Thom most certainly had a soft spot for him, because of poor Owyn. And then when he actually realized just whom he was dealing with, I have no doubt that the Gray Fox knew very well how to help - and that help he must.

With Lan it's a bit trickier - the baby image in particular would tend to point backward. But, well, Lan's entire being is defined by that vow ... both his past and his future. Particularly now that Nynaeve has released him to fight as he feels he needs to.

Though that scene was one of the most awesome and inspiring ever, though, I think Rand would have done very well to send Lan and Nynaeve to the Borderland armies - with an Asha'man or two, or perhaps also Kiruna, to deal with the sisters should, um, difficulties arise. Dunno. That could have been explosive. Thoughts?

*copies text to clipboard, just in case*
139. Freelancer
Thanks Rob.

The sentiment of that post is exactly why I'm glad Brandon is The Guy. He is walking an odd tightrope. He's the author, but it isn't his story. He is humbly sensitive to the concerns of the readers, while his highest priority is to the integrity of Robert Jordan's vision for the saga.

There are enough other things in life to occupy us, we can survive the remaining wait to get to Tar'mon Gai'don.

Regarding Min's viewing of Lan, I had always taken the two mentioned, the Lan/baby/sword one and the Thom/other guy juggling fire/White Tower one, as being backward looking. With a direct citation in opposition to that view, I will reconsider. Still, those two in particular seem to have less gravitas if applied to a non-specific future event than to past events with which we can clearly identify them. c'est la vie
140. Freelancer

Yes, you would. I had the chance to see Brandon at a local reading/signing for the Hero of Ages release, and he was extremely approachable and engaging. With a brief reminder as introduction, he practically quoted back an email I had sent him more than two months prior. He gave each person in a rather long line a very decent amount of his complete attention, and not as if he were waiting for it to be over, but relishing the dialogue and common interest.

Regarding Lan, I agree with you. While I lurked on WoTMania, among the theory threads there I posted that nobody made more sense to go and treat with the Borderland armies on Rand's behalf than the King of dead Malkier. Alas, that one appears doomed.
john mullen
141. johntheirishmongol
Matt might think a little longer than that. Have you ever had a bratty little sis that tattled on you??? lol

There's a budget for books? who says??????????????

Death Standings

Bashere - dead
Cadsuane - almost dead
Logain, Min,Verin, Aiel - badly wounded so far

I will continue this for another chapter only because I dont want anyone to miss out
Wannabe Asha'man
142. Valan
For the death poll

Rand - DEADish
Min - DEAD
Verin - DEAD
Elayne - DEAD (in childbirth, oh man I can see that coming too *eyes glitter in savage hope*)

Wow that is straight up f**king cold.

Aiel - Mostly dead.

Lan - lives (who can kill a man that can kill you by twitching his thumb?)

Mat - lives (C'mon outriggers!)
Wannabe Asha'man
143. drewoftherushes
@136 wetlandernw

Thank you! I said that a while back and was flamed for it! Well not exactly flamed, but disagreed with.

His website is terrible! I work on websites -- it's most of my job. And his is not intuitive, not visually appealing. The only positive, and it's a HUGE positive, is that it's extensive and thorough. But he needs some help with the front end, frankly (and not his brother!)
Wannabe Asha'man
144. ZshadeZ
For the death poll:

Min and Elayne - alive... the vision of these two plus Aviendha on the boat with Rand if not literal seems to indicate they're firmly on one side of the life/death barrier and he's somewhere in between. you could make an argument from that saying either the 3 girls all alive, or the three girls all dead, but imo it has to be one or the other. I can't see all three of them dying, and I can't really see that vision coming to pass in a way other than as the aftermath of TG so I think all three living makes the most sense.

Cadsuane - dead. Teaching Rand an important lesson or not she needs to die. :D

Verin - dead. I can easily see her dying to achieve her plan and it being somthing needed for the victory of the light.

Rand - uncertain. I've been reading this series since I was 8 years old, I'd really rather not speculate on this one. There are too many ways to do it and rather than think through them I'd rather just have the full force of the shock at the ending.

Hurin - dead. Him dying in some heroic way and joining the HotH would be far from sad.

Birgitte - dead. I think she'll die and be retied to the wheel.

Olver - dead. What? He isn't Gaidal Cain so he's SoL when this all goes down. :D

The Creator - dead. OMG existentialism lolz.
Wannabe Asha'man
145. CalaLily
Everyone seems to be gunning for Min! But Nicola's Fortelling seems pretty clear, at least to outsiders.

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead but lives. The great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

LoC, Dreams and Nightmares, pg. 353

So from that, we know that Rand and his harem survive the Last Battle. Whether or not Elayne dies in childbirth, it would have to be AFTER Tar'mon Gai'don, anyway. Who knows, we may not even see her twins outside the womb.

And Re: Tuon's own ability to channel, and how that affects her views on damane and sul'dam. Tuon herself clears that up. She equates wilders, which Bode is, with murderers. Because she can learn to channel as opposed to touching the Source naturally, she says that she can choose to not channel, which, again, she equates with choosing not to murder and rape.

I don't think she understands that those with the spark born in them DON'T have that choice.
Alice Arneson
146. Wetlandernw
drewoftherushes @143 - I said that a while back and was flamed for it.

Yeah, I remember that... I can see where some people might find a "cool factor" in the layout, but grey text on a black background is seriously hard on the eyes. There are a few things I like about it, but I just find it hard to read. Oh well.
Bill Reamy
147. BillinHI
CalaLily @145: I for one will be EXTREMELY unhappy if the whole damane thing in Seanchan-land is not done away with altogether. Granted that Rand-land's White Tower approach was far from ideal, it's so much better than the Seanchan approach I can't even conceive of a percentage high enough to cover it.

Re: Brandon's website: totally agree that it is very hard to read. I have seen worse websites, but not many (if any) that I visit on a regular bases.
Hurin Smells
148. HurinSmells
CalaLily @ 145: Unfortunately I think Tuon understands very well that a woman with the spark born in her doesn't have the choice of not channelling. She would argue that is exactly why they must be leashed.

I really hope that somehow, once the Seanchan start to actually work WITH the Westlanders they'll start to see that error of their beliefs and that Tuon becomes an SG in her own right.
Wannabe Asha'man
149. birgit
Basel Gil, because it will make people sad without unraveling any key or even minor plot lines. He is the great and loyal innkeeper but there is no directly referenced family to go home to or character involvment once he finishes the Morgase storyline.

There is his cook Coline who often acts as if they were married, but he is glad they aren't.
James Jones
150. jamesedjones
141 johntheirishmongol

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have one of those. And while my reaction might differ, we all know Mat is the scoundrel with a heart of gold. :P
Maiane Bakroeva
151. Isilel
Well, Min saw Rand, so if he was the man from Thom's aura she would have recognized him. She might not recognize a young Thom, though, rejuvenated by channeling.

As to Hurin - never liked him. Too cringing and subservient. I know that Rand had to learn leadership in TGH, but IMHO it worked better with Loial, who followed Rand without any hint of servility. And while Hurin did his bit a pinch, there are like a ton of people in the books who were much more heroic than him and more Horn-worthy.
Antoni Ivanov
152. tonka
Thom is not going to channel ! Robert Jordan said it quite clearly. He said that Thom will never learn to channel as he cannot learn to channel.
Jane Smyth
153. Kaboom
Concerning Nynaeve prophecised resurrection of Rand, I don't think it will happen because of this quote.

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead but lives. The great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

This "dead but lives" suggest a different thing than dead and resurrected 3 days latter. Well, to me at least. I think there's a surprise there for us in the last book.
Marcus W
154. toryx
One thing about Nicola's Foretelling that gives me hope is that there may be more story to tell after the Final Battle is won. Ever since I heard that RJ knew the ending scene before he ever started the book, I was always afraid (for some reason) that the story would end right after the DO's defeat.

The Foretelling gives me the impression that there will be more chapters after that's done. I want to know what happens next, even if I can't learn everything.
Wannabe Asha'man
155. topknot
Long time listener first time caller…. Er well you get the point.

First of all LOVING the reread, Leigh you rock, you never fail to make me laugh, and the comments keep me rolling.

I think that the “dead but lives” refers to LTT, he is going to have to die and get out of Rands head.

As for who else dies, I agree that Bashere will probably die.
I think that Siuan and Leane will both die.
Also Elaida needs to die, but only after having an Oh Crap moment when she realizes that she interpreted all of her foretellings incorrectly.
All of the forsaken have to die.
All of the Aiel except for the Maidens, who Rand saves.

If you haven’t read Brandons mistborn series, he has no trouble killing off main characters, regardless of whether there’s a love interest or not so unless RJ specifically said who all lives and who dies in his notes I think we may be surprised.

That’s all for me (slinks back to the shadows).
Wannabe Asha'man
156. douglasm
I remember Sanderson specifically mentioning, I think at JordanCon, that Jordan's notes include a complete list of what happens to each member of the cast at the end. Who lives, who dies and how, where everyone goes, etc. There's even a list of things that don't get resolved.
john mullen
158. johntheirishmongol
I am not counting bad guys in the death poll, and to me Elaida counts as a bad guy.

I hope and expect BS doesn't do like he did in Mistborn, mostly because I think it would change the tone of the series, and I dont believe BS wants to go there.
Tess Laird
159. thewindrose
Found the Thom can't channel quote(from Leigh's great compilation of notes:)):
From a signing in Seattle, Edward "potato" Liu tells us:

Now, regarding Thom, RJ said a man will not go mad or get sick if he never channeled. Thus, he agreed that a male channeler who could be taught to channel (as opposed to having the inborn ability) and has never channeled would not die from the taint. BUT, when I asked him if he ever intended to make people think that Thom could channel, he said no. I brought up the hereditary point (i.e. Owyn) but he said just because your parents have a particular gene doesn't mean you'll receive that particular gene. Also he made a point that Owyn was his nephew so therefore not necessarily very similar gene-wise. When I pressed him again on it, he said (I'm quoting) "There is no way in hell Thom can channel." All he offered for explanations is that Thom is a "mysterious man."
Enough said.
Wannabe Asha'man
160. topknot
(Stops halfway in the shadow)

What... someone read my post and is responding, thats never happend to me before, I, I don't know how to react, hmmm.

@156 okay RJ was very thorough.

@158 Elaida is a badguy, thats what I get for not reading all of the interoffice memos. "Sheesh you kill one innocent accepted, overthrough the leader of the Whitetower, try to kill off the group of young men who helped you accomplish this and generally act like a B@#%&! and your labled for life"
Tess Laird
161. thewindrose
johntheirishmongol @ other survey starters:
We do suck at doing these - always adding more info then needed, more characters than asked for, and totally different characters then asked for. That us though, so no matter how you word it, we will change it:)
Lannis .
162. Lannis
Oooh ooh! Survey!

Deadity dead:

Elayne (death by childbirth--can't Heal her because it will interfere with the babies)
Morgase & Tallanvor (just before the reunion with Rand & co.--I totally bought the romantic tragedy theory from a few threads back.)

C'mon new post! :)
Helen Peters
163. Helen
No, Elaida is just a misguided (something I'm not allowed to type), she has to survive so she lives with the realisation that she misinterpreted all her fortellings wrongly, either that or she's got to wholeheartedly back Rand just before she kicks the bucket.
Lannis .
164. Lannis
Re: Elaida... Though I know this wouldn't happen--as it's a complete character reversal--I would love for Elaida to realize how wrong she's been (and for how long!), and how obstructive she's actual been to Team Light... would be wonderful for her to realize the full force of her follies and commit suicide... but realistically, won't happen...

Unless, in Elayne's fancy cache of ter'angreal there's one that shows you the truth of your actions and Elaida can't live with said knowledge? Ooooh...

Yeah, no... never going to happen.
Philbert de Zwart
165. philbert
Brandon's post is really well written. I love how he says between the lines 'I don't like the cover art any more than you do, but I can't say that out loud any more now that these guys pay me now.'

I'm going to buy the version with the ugly American cover anyway because the dull British cover would stand out between the other ugly ones.
Wannabe Asha'man
166. Junko
Just musing if Robert Jordan intended the Emond's Field fab 5 to end up all royalty. Rand is King of Illian (at least), Perrin is on his way to the top of the Saldean ruling house, Mat is Prince of the Raven, Nyneave is Malkieri queen and Egwene, well, she's the Amyrlin, that's more than queen enough.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the Fab 5 are the only 'major' characters in this saga. So, everyone else can die.
Antoni Ivanov
167. tonka

That's not true Elayne is as major character as Nynaeve and Egwene in the later books even more than Nynaeve.

So we have 3 SB(Super Boys) and 3 SG(Super Girls) and all end up royalty (Elayne as Queen of Andor ofc)
Wannabe Asha'man
168. Wannabe Asha'man

What if for the book covers, not to snuff the current artist, Tor puts on a cover-off? Where fans of the series who have complained about the book covers and want to see something different actually submit their visions of what the new cover and even what the old covers should look like.

It's just a thought, but Tor can put out even MORE publicity for the book by doing this and possibly even please more of the hardcore fans. Therefor, by word of mouth even more publicity is gained.

What we really buy the books for though is the content between the covers, but when you are able to span more than 1 medium with a concept then you also expand your fan base.

My Team Light character death that I could see happening would be Thom jumping in front of some projectile intended to kill Moiraine.
Galen Brinn
169. GatheringStorm
toryx @ 112 said

Maybe. It's always possible that Jordan changed his mind before the end. He was known to do that, from time to time. And I've always wondered if that whole outrigger trilogy idea was just a massive red herring to throw people off.

I don't think there are any real guarantees.

IIRC, Jordan actually had contract signed for those books, so the outriggers themselves aren't a red herring.
Rob Munnelly
170. RobMRobM
@168 - Humorous note re the book covers. One of my best friends had been deep into RJ from the beginning and tried to get me to read them for years, However, I thought the book covers looked so stupid I kept saying no thanks. He finally got me to break down and read them only about this time last year. God, I wish we had the brit covers in the states and I would have been into WOT 15 years ago. R
Tess Laird
171. thewindrose
F5F5F5 I am hitting the choss out of the F5 button but nothing new is comming up. Spoil us for one week and what have ya?
Lannis .
172. Lannis
I'm bracing myself for a 5pm post... :|

At least I can go outside and play with the kids--I feel for those left in the office, on a Friday desperate for a new post...
Wannabe Asha'man
173. Wannabe Asha'man

Maybe Tor should take note of the covers then, maybe even employ me to cook up even better ideas, *wink**wink**nudge**nudge.*

I personally started reading the series because a friend gave me his paperback of TEOTW in '06 while waiting for months for my discharge papers to go through. I handed the book back to him because it was a very silly cover AND fantasy is not what I read, but he pressed it back at me and said you will love it. Now I'm on my 3rd reread, WH being my favorite, but the fact that the covers are soooo lacking that they almost put me off from the series in the first place now makes me wonder how many others refused to read the book because of the cover?
Marcus W
174. toryx
Lannis @ 172:

At least I can go outside and play with the kids--I feel for those left in the office, on a Friday desperate for a new post...

Bastard! :)

I'm not waiting for the next post as much as I'm waiting for quittin' time. But still, I'm bound to my desk while some people evidently get to go out and play.

Gathering Storm @ 169

IIRC, Jordan actually had contract signed for those books, so the outriggers themselves aren't a red herring.

I wish someone would post a link to where all this talk of the outrigger novels came from. The only thing I've ever heard of from both RJ and in official releases were the prequels and his Infinity of Heaven series which were supposed to involve a culture not entirely unlike the Seanchan but not in Randland.

I've always kind of wondered if the Outrigger rumors were actually confused references to Infinity of Heaven.

Edit to add:

I've found a blog entry from RJ stating he was considering Outrigger novels of events that may have happened during or after the WoT, but it depended on how things went. I think I found mention of the Mat and Tuon business coming out at JordanCon, which makes a certain amount of sense. A spoiler like that isn't the kind of thing that Jordan would ordinarily let out.

At any rate, all suggestions indicate that these supposed Outrigger novels would come after the Infinity novels and the Prequels so I still don't think it's as cut and dry as people tend to think.

My main issue is with the concept of news about future novels starring Mat and Tuon being so spoilerrific. I wouldn't have bet on either of the two dying even without that talk but it's just not in RJ's style to spoil it like that. I'm still skeptical but a little more willing to concede the possibility that the rumors are true.
Rob Munnelly
175. RobMRobM
Toryx - from the WOT wiki

There is also a prequel novella, New Spring in the Legends anthology edited by Robert Silverberg. Jordan expanded this into the standalone novel New Spring that was published in January 2004. Prior to his death, Jordan planned another two prequel novels and up to three "outrigger" novels taking place during or after the main series. He had notes prepared for these, and it has not been ruled out that Brandon Sanderson or other authors could expand them into full novels, although the final decision will be taken by Jordan's widow and publishers.
Marcus W
176. toryx
RobMRobM @ 175:

Thanks Rob. It's still pretty sparse on the details, however, and there's no mention of either a contract as GatheringStorm suggest or that any of those novels would center around Mat and Tuon.
Alice Arneson
177. Wetlandernw
For what it's worth, from RJ's blog on Dragonmount:
22 Nov 2005 -
...there will be one more main sequence novel. At some point in the future I will do two more short prequel novels. I have signed the contracts for a trilogy — the first of two planned — entitled Infinity of Heaven. And Harriet and I will be doing an encyclopedia once Book 12 is complete. I’ve said frequently that I wouldn’t write in this universe again once tWoT was done unless I had a really great idea. I may – I say again, may — have had such an idea. I have to poke at it for a year or two to see whether it’s strong enough. If it is, I’ll do two or three “outrigger” novels following some of the characters on another story arc. If it isn’t strong enough, then I’ll let it die a quiet death.
20 Jan 2006 -
For various folk, I will write the two additional prequel novels eventually, but I can’t say exactly when. If the idea I have for the outrigger novels proves strong enough to actually do those, I’ll probably do them first if for no other reason than they would be more complex and thus, to me, more interesting.
31 March 2006 -
A few people seem confused over what I mean by saying that I need thirty years to complete the books in my head. That entails a lot more than The Wheel of Time. There is A Memory of Light, of course, the last main sequence novel of WoT, plus two more short prequel novels. Then there are, possibly, three “outrigger” novels set in the WoT universe. There are the two trilogies of Infinity of Heaven, set in quite another universe. Plus there are several other novels and a handful of novellas that are set in neither universe. A few of them are actually set in our own universe, though not always without a twist. So there are a fair number, even to spread out over 30 years.

So it's clear he had ideas for the outrigger novels. I just know that I read somewhere that Mat & Tuon were the subject of at least one of those, but I'm not sure where. The only thing I can find right off is from the wikipedia entry on Mat, and it doesn't give any references.
Ron Garrison
178. Man-0-Manetheran
@ 138. Branwhin

Not much money in the budget for books, alas, or I suspect I'd have devoured the entire Mistborn trilogy at least.

Don't forget the wonderful institution of the public library - created so that "not much money...for books" will never get in the way of access to knowledge. It's wonderful to own lots of books, but not a requirement to enjoy them.
Ron Garrison
179. Man-0-Manetheran
"he who is dead but lives"

"And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighted down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time."
(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time." - Chapter 1, paragraph 1, The Eye of the World

Rand will die at TG, but die in victory over the DO. Though dead, he still lives to be spun out by the Wheel. As it began, so shall it end - except "there are neither beginnings nor was a beginning."

And that, my friends, is how I believe the series will 'end.'
Wannabe Asha'man
180. Nightbaron
For me, WoT = Darryl K. Sweet cover. When I was young, I thought tEotW's cover was awesome, and it got me reading the entire series. A different set of covers would somewhat ruin the effect for me, just like when they tried releasing the new paperback covers years ago, which I just didn't buy.
Rob Munnelly
181. RobMRobM
Toryx - Brandon has a long blog post where he discusses the outrigger novels and that he doesn't support doing them but probably will do them if asked by Harriet. The post noted that Tom Doherty of Tor really wants to do the outriggers.

I for one don't recall that RJ had contracts to do them, just that he wanted to get to them time permitting.

I've definitely read entries re the Mat-Tuon-Seanchan piece of those books but can't remember where and I don't feel like hunting hard now. The above post by Brandon and another one on Dragonmount discussing the outriggers both decline to discuss the substance of the outriggers in the article in order to avoid "mild spoilers." This certainly would be one of them.


P.s. *twitch
Guillaume Bergeron
182. Nightbaron
I also meant to comment this on the previous post, but one of the theories about Cabriana was that her body was used to recycle Cyndane. I can't remember if this was debunked or not, or if any Aes Sedai who saw Cyndane at the end of WH could have recognized Cabriana's body, but I thought it was an interesting theory.

(Plus, I just registered and want to test posting while logged in :P)
Galen Brinn
183. GatheringStorm
Google/Bing search on a contract for the outrigger novels actually turned up the summary page for Jordancon. The page is cached, as I think it's one that we broke with all the postings going on that week or 2. However, here's the relevant info:

Recap of JordanCon (AKA: Adventures at Rand Al’Con)
I’m all the more glad to have seen this ... and the three “outrigger” novels Robert Jordan wanted ... Tom did say he has the contract for these novels already and intends on seeing ... ·

Here's more info, too

Brandon Sanderson has a post on his site regarding this, but I can't find it ATM and it's time to go home...
184. Freelancer
For everybody who hopes "Brandon does this" or "Brandon doesn't do that", the name you need to keep front and center is Harriet. She is the Gatekeeper, and she is the Keymaster. What is allowed to be published will be what she believes was her husband's intent. She is the constant in the entire equation, having been the primary editor from the outset of the story. Aside from that, Brandon has said many times that he has no wish to move the style, the tone, or the structure of the work away from what already exists. An appropriate analogy is that of having a custom house built, then having an addition done by a different contractor. The quality and skill of the second contractor will be defined by how hard (or easy) it is to tell that the later work wasn't built by the original designer. Brandon sees it as a major goal for the flow and flavor of his efforts to 'appear' seamless to RJ's writing, without falling into mimickry.

RE: - While I agree that the site lacks in visual appeal in some ways, I actually find light grey against black easier to read than black against white. ::shrug::


It isn't guaranteed that a person in Min's viewings is always known to her. Rand would seem logical as the one juggling fire in her Thom viewing, but since nobody can say with certainty how any given viewing works, we also can't say definitively that a person in one of them has to be identifiable if she has met that person.


All of the major WoT sites that include theory forums have seen speculation that each of the "Super Kids" becomes a ruler, and it is certainly aiming that way. Elayne is already a queen, Egwene is the Amyrlin-in-captivity, Nynaeve is already a queen, though in erstwhile status until Malkier lives again, Perrin is bound to be King of Saldaea/Ghealdan/Manetheren (own it), Mat is Prince of the Ravens. Oddly, while Rand is Who He Is, his status as a royal is most in question. While he was ceded the Laurel Crown of Illian, he's not interested in that, and will surely appoint a regent or inform the Nine that they need to select a new King. Tear is spoken for, Elayne is to be queen of Cairhien as well as Andor(with a nod to Galad's claim if he wishes and Rand permits). Who would want to be the ruler of Tarabon or Arad Doman?
185. Hopper
I appreciated Brandon's post. Every time I hear him talk about WOT I become more and more convinced he was the absolute right choice.

Also, being on the West Coast means I have to wait 3 hours less for a new post :) But its still hard...
Greg Hollingsworth
186. artifex
Couldn't make it to JordanCom back in April, but I did watch some of the videos on YouTube. (Search YouTube for JordanCon.) During panel with Tom, Brandon and Harriett (no need for last names here, eh?) they mention the prequels and outriggers. Brandon says something akin to "we'll see"; Tom says basically that he wants them; but don't recall what Harriett says.

(BTW, the WOT skit is there, too.)
Tess Laird
187. thewindrose
Please check this out, it is an article by Peter Ahlstrom from the World SF Convention in Denver. I have included a link to it, but also put below that, the info on some outrigger novels.

Tom loved Brandon’s book Elantris and liked Mistborn even more. While Jim was originally against anyone else writing Wheel of Time books, toward the end of his life he became convinced that since he would not be able to finish the last book, someone else needed to. Tom calls The Wheel of Time a series that “will be read for generations,” and he says, “We’ll be proud of Brandon’s work going forward.” Tom mentions that Jim also planned to eventually write some books taking place about 10 years after A Memory of Light that would mostly focus on Mat and Tuon .
Marcus W
188. toryx
Thanks for everyone's input to my questions about the Outrigger stuff and especially the tenuous (imho) connection to Mat and Tuon. So far it looks like that bit of information is due to others beside RJ, which makes me feel a little better about the whole thing.

In the end I guess the same old saying holds true. We'll have to read and find out.
Rob Munnelly
189. RobMRobM
Great article - and it does say at the end that there is a contract for the outriggers.
Thomas Keith
190. insectoid
Long time since my last post. Anyway, my thoughts...

Leigh: Loved the podcast--that's great stuff. And love the blog as always.

re: Egwene
Don't think I saw that coming, even with the subtle hints here.

re: Myrelle
I totally missed the marriage knife thing, about referring to Lan anyway...

Siuan + Leane: Love 'em. Can't get enough of Siuan's fish sayings.

Salidar Six: Irritating. Really. Except for Morvrin--her comeback to Siuan cracked me up.

re: The Nightmare
Scary stuff when I first read it. Don't see too much of that in WoT--except maybe for Semirhage. Yeek.

re: Elaida
I liked Lannis's idea @164 about how Elaida should realize how much trouble she's caused and kill herself. IMHO that would be a better ending for her than having, say, Siuan kill her. Unless it involved silverpike. :)'s almost 1PM here. Where is new post? *twitch*
Thomas Keith
191. insectoid
Oh, and lest I forget: we ought to have at least a week of TGS-spoiler-free posts. That would be better, I guess, than avoiding the blog altogether (that would cause more twitching!).

Spoilers are bad. Spoilers are...full of choss? Ha ha!
Wannabe Asha'man
192. Realized
I just realized... i need to take a day off from work to go buy the book and read it.

Anyone else planning on doing the same thing?
Rob Munnelly
193. RobMRobM
@191 - Leigh said this group would be spoiler free for 2 weeks, then it becomes a free for all.
Thomas Keith
194. insectoid
Two weeks is fine, of course. But like some other people here, I'll probably be done with TGS in less than a week... :)
Alice Arneson
195. Wetlandernw
insectoid @ 191 & 194 - go back and read Leigh's intro to the blog (this one). Cool beans there re: tGS spoilericiousness.
Michael Johnson
196. ZshadeZ
Less than a week? I'd be surprised if it takes me 24 hours to finish. Christmas and my birthdayare both yearly events, and I generally take off work for them. It's been years waiting for TGS, it's more than worth a day off.
YouDont NeedToKnow
197. necrosage2005
Why don't you wait to read the new book when you are done with the re-read? That way it shouldn't color your postings as much and give those that don't really read so fast some more time to read the book, too.
Michael Johnson
198. ZshadeZ

Why should Leigh have to wait to read the book? She's a fan too and she's been waiting just as long as the rest of us for the new book. She's already said she'll stay spoiler free for 2 weeks to give those who read slower a chance to finish it.

If you're that worried about potential spoilers why don't you simply hold off on reading the reread blog until after you finish the new book instead of (very selfishly) asking her to wait several months to read the new book while she finishes the blog?
Lord Haart
199. LordHaart
Not sure where to post this, but just had a thought that the comments sections in these posts should really be threaded. It would make for a much better flow imo.

Other than that, this has become a regular site to visit for me. :)
Abraham Park
200. Abe
Oh gosh, ZshadeZ, how can you read an entire book in less then twenty-four hours, and still retain what you've read? Sounds close to fiction if you ask me, haha!

I devoured book three in four days, and I was quite surprised by what I've forgotten when I went back to read it again...
Tess Laird
201. thewindrose
@ 199 LordHaart, you could leave messages for Torie or Pablo with you idea.
Wannabe Asha'man
202. alreadymadwithspeedread
Not impossible if you've been reading for years. Like most other skills, it's a matter of technique.
On the other hand, if you take your sweet time reading a book, some of the details will have skipped out of your short term memory by the time you get to the conclusion where all the pieces come together and the big picture is revealed.
Michael Johnson
203. ZshadeZ
@ 200 Abe

Things slip away regardless. There's not a single person here who remembers every little detail of this series. I'm very able to get so pulled into a book I forget to eat and have no idea what time it is... and I'd much rather take a good book in one go than have it broken up.

Finishing a WoT book in 24 hours isn't anything like speed reading, it's just reading continually with very few breaks and all of them short... sort of how I just watched all 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica in 6 days. :p
204. Hopper
The stress of waiting is killing me... so I'll make a generic post to make myself feel better.
Kathy Keith
205. Babokathy
Open Note to Anyone:

It's finally happened to me: My brain is overloaded with character names, and I cannot remember any new names now!!! Please help! Is there a website with a complete list of "Who's-Who?" All these names are starting to look alike and sound alike to me. Desperate times, while waiting for our fresh post.

Thanks All.
Tess Laird
206. thewindrose
Babokathy: Please check out this link, I find it helpful for characters and PoVs! link
And you are on thread 6 not 7 - hope you get this.
Rob Munnelly
207. RobMRobM
Many of them. Google encyclopedia WoT for one.
Rob Munnelly
208. RobMRobM
Hey Wind - great minds and all that. R
Kathy Keith
209. Babokathy
RobM & Wind: Thank You a lot.

Tess Laird
210. thewindrose
RobMRobM - Yeah but I linked - neener neener
Check out the robot overlord contest - R.Fife was one of the winners!
Wannabe Asha'man
211. CBeats
yeah...ou est le re-read pour aujourd-hui? je le veux maintenant! comprendez-vous, leigh? si-vous-plait?

-generic post as well-
Jane Smyth
212. Kaboom
Even if it was for Leigh to decide the post time, I don't think she would be reading this particular part (from wednesday) :)

Allez, ca va venir. Il faut de la patience...
Rob Munnelly
213. RobMRobM
Torie et en vacance; seulement Pablo aujordhui.
Wannabe Asha'man
214. Simka
It's so late now probably no one will read this. But, from RJ's Dragonmount blog:

Thursday, July 6th, 2006

"For Tony W, the last book of the main story arc, A Memory of Light, won’t be the last Wheel of Time novel. True, I want to move on to the Infinity of Heaven books, not to mention some other books, but there are two more prequel novels to come, and maybe a set of three outrigger novels."


Wednesday, November 8th, 2006

"So there you have it. Oh, finishing A Memory of Light, of course, and getting started on Mat and Tuon, and some others, five to ten years after the Last Battle. Those go without saying. Not a bad plan for the coming year, eh?"
Wannabe Asha'man
215. Simka
It's so late now probably no one will read this. But, from RJ's Dragonmount blog:

Thursday, July 6th, 2006

"For Tony W, the last book of the main story arc, A Memory of Light, won’t be the last Wheel of Time novel. True, I want to move on to the Infinity of Heaven books, not to mention some other books, but there are two more prequel novels to come, and maybe a set of three outrigger novels."


Wednesday, November 8th, 2006

"So there you have it. Oh, finishing A Memory of Light, of course, and getting started on Mat and Tuon, and some others, five to ten years after the Last Battle. Those go without saying. Not a bad plan for the coming year, eh?"
Wannabe Asha'man
216. jack the shadow
I just thought of something there seems to be an inconsistency bridgett remember's there being warder's but the forsaken do not know about the bond?
That's weird
Wannabe Asha'man
217. Iarvin
Birgitte has had other lives since the breaking of the world. Hence she's been around a lot more than the forsaken have been.
William McDaniel
218. willmcd
I recalled that when Elayne was first introduced waaayy back in TEotW Ch40, as she tends to an injured Rand, Gawyn comments that she's always taking care of injured animals. In retrospect, reading now, it seems like this was a trait inserted just to give her a reason to be particularly interested in Rand, and it wasn't to be part of the character ever again. Yet here at the beginning of this chapter Elayne is nursing a wounded "song sparrow". Now there's some character trait conservation.

Subscribe to this thread

Receive notification by email when a new comment is added. You must be a registered user to subscribe to threads.
Post a comment