Fri
Aug 7 2009 2:42pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 1

Friends! Romans! WOTrymen! Lend me your ears!

...That’s disgusting.

Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read, y’all! Today we start a brand shiny new novel in the series, El Nombre I mean Número Seis (I speak fluent Spanishese!), otherwise known as Lord of Chaos, which is the first novel in the series whose title doesn’t begin with “The”. Not that this means anything, but you know.

What? I notice these things!

This post will be covering Part 1 of the Prologue. Yes, that’s right, this post will only be covering half of the Prologue, because that’s how freaking long it is. LOC’s going to be a lengthy haul, you guys.

Previous entries are here. Please be aware that this and all other posts on this blog contain spoilers for all currently published novels in the Wheel of Time series.

And now, the post!

Prologue: The First Message [Part 1]

What Happens
Demandred arrives on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and notes that the Myrrdraal must be very upset at how few slaves there were at Thakandar, to make their deadly black blades with. His musing is interrupted by a Fade taller than any he’s seen before, which introduces itself as Shaidar Haran (“Hand of the Dark”, in the Old Tongue), and leads Demandred into the mountain. Inside the tunnel, Demandred notes that the jagged spikes above which always almost brush his own head clear the Fade’s by a good margin, which indicates it stands high in the Great Lord’s favor. They reach the Pit of Doom, and Demandred tries to dismiss the Fade, but it ignores him.

Demandred opened his mouth—and a voice exploded in his head.

DEMANDRED.

To call it a voice was to call a mountain a pebble. It nearly crushed him against the inside of his own skull; it filled him with rapture. He sank to his knees. The Myrddraal stood watching impassively, but only a small part of him could even notice the thing with that voice filling his brain.

The voice asks for news, and Demandred thinks he is always surprised both by what the Great Lord knows and what he doesn’t. Sweating, he answers that Rahvin died the day before, and Lanfear, Asmodean, and Moghedien have vanished.

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

Demandred hesitates, remembering the consequences the last time balefire was openly used in battle, but replies that he will obey as ordered. He begins to explain that he believes the Dragon can be destroyed, but the Great Lord brings him up short by asking if he would like to be “Nae’blis”, which is the title for the one who would be first among all his followers. Demandred answers he only wishes to serve, and screams as the voice gives him the knowledge of “who will die and who will live”.

Nynaeve tells Siuan and Leane to stop fidgeting, irritated that she is sweating buckets in the heat and they are cool and dry. Siuan repeats her belief that this is a complete waste of time, but they promised, so Nynaeve should get on with it already. Nynaeve probes at them with the One Power, though technically she is not channeling; she’s using the saidar flowing through the woman with a careworn farmer’s face sitting in the corner, with a silver collar around her neck that matches the bracelet Nynaeve wears. Nynaeve thinks in some ways it would be better if the woman were already dead. She mutters that something is “torn, or cut” in the two stilled women, and “Marigan” pipes up that it was once called “severing”. All three of the other women glare at her, and Nynaeve tells her to say useful things or shut up. Marigan shrinks back, and Nynaeve feels her fear and hatred through the forced link, the intimacy of which she loathes. She unclasps the bracelet and hands it to Siuan, telling her to put it on.

Siuan eyed her stubbornly for a moment—Light, but the woman could be obstinate!—before closing the bracelet around her wrist. A look of wonder came onto her face immediately, then her eyes narrowed at Marigan. “She hates us, but I knew that. And there’s fear, and . . . shock. Not a glimmer on her face, but she’s shocked to her toes. I don’t think she believed I could use this thing, either.”

Siuan sighs that she cannot channel through her, though, and abruptly orders Nynaeve to get it off her; Nynaeve gently points out that the fact that she can feel Marigan at all means there must be something there to be Healed, but Siuan isn’t buying it. Nynaeve shakes her head and complies, and Leane holds her wrist out eagerly. She reports the same effects as Siuan, and Nynaeve takes the bracelet back. Elayne suddenly barges in, furious, scaring the wits out of everyone else in the room, especially Marigan. She informs them that “they” are sending an embassy to Caemlyn, and will not let her go with them! Siuan asks if she really thinks Sheriam and the others would allow the Daughter-Heir to go anywhere near the Dragon Reborn, with her mother dead? Elayne snaps back that she doesn’t believe that, but Siuan counters that she doesn’t believe Rand killed her, which is not the same thing. Elayne doesn’t buy any of it, but leaves the matter to return to the point that regardless, her place is in Caemlyn. Siuan snorts that she knows better than that.

“True, they’d not mind you taking the throne sooner than later; there hasn’t been a Queen who was openly Aes Sedai in far too long. But they won’t let you go until you’re a full sister, and even then, because you are Daughter-Heir and will be Queen soon, they won’t let you near the Dragon bloody Reborn until they know how far they can trust him. Especially since this . . . amnesty of his.” Her mouth twisted sourly around the word, and Leane grimaced.

Elayne refuses to back down, and reiterates that it is her duty to be there, and in any case she would be a far better candidate to approach Rand than anyone the Hall in exile might send. Leane is very dry about this, since they all know exactly what Elayne will do if she gets within kissing distance of Rand, and points out that if Rand has the Daughter-Heir, he has not only Caemlyn but all of Andor, and he is growing too powerful too fast, especially now that Moiraine is dead. Siuan adds that she is trying to “balance a live silverpike on her nose”, keeping up support among the Rebels for Rand when half of them secretly want to gentle him and the rest want nothing to do with him, so Elayne can just let it go. Nynaeve is struck by a sudden thought, and asks how many Aes Sedai there will be in this embassy; to her relief, Siuan answers nine, “not enough to frighten him”. Leane adds that Min will be accompanying them, and Elayne says flatly that she has things to do, and leaves. Nynaeve rounds on Leane angrily.

“I thought Siuan was the mean one of you, but that was vicious!”

It was Siuan who answered. “When two women love the same man, it means trouble, and when the man is Rand al’Thor . . . the Light knows how sane he still is. Or what course they might send him off on. If there’s any hair-pulling and clawing to be done, let them do it now, here.”

Siuan and Leane go to leave as well, ignoring Nynaeve’s protests; Leane says sadly that it would be nice if anything were to come of her trying to Heal them, but maybe she should try Logain instead. They leave, and Moghedien observes that they bite each other like “rats in a sealed box”. Nynaeve tells her to be silent, and thinks of the regretful necessity of keeping the captive Forsaken alive and secret from the Aes Sedai. Digging information out of her was difficult, but what they had learned had gained her and Elayne a lot of credit among the Aes Sedai in Salidar.

Guilt and revulsion stabbed Nynaeve, not for the first time. Could any amount of knowledge justify keeping one of the Forsaken from justice? Turning her in meant punishment, probably dreadful, for everyone involved, not just herself, but Elayne and Siuan and Leane. Turning her in meant Birgitte’s secret would come out. And all that knowledge lost. Moghedien might know nothing of Healing, but she had given Nynaeve a dozen hints of what was possible, and there had to be more in her head. With those to guide her, what might she discover eventually?

She tells Moghedien that they will discuss the weather, and Moghedien sighs and says she knows nothing about controlling the weather, except that the heat is the Great Lo- the Dark One’s work, and there’s nothing to be done about it. Nynaeve tries not to grind her teeth, and settles down to drag what she can out of the woman.

Elayne hurries out in search of Min, barely pausing to wave at Birgitte, and ignores the bustle in the streets, even when Bryne rides by, ignoring her as usual. She is intercepted however, by Anaiya and Janya Frende, a Brown sister; Janya gushes to Elayne over all the marvelous discoveries (like invisibility, though you have to stand still for it to work) she and Nynaeve have made since arriving in Salidar, and Anaiya adds that she should be proud. Elayne thinks that she doesn’t feel very proud, considering the source of their “discoveries”; even worse, they had been forced to keep some techniques (like inverting weaves and how to hide the ability to channel) secret, lest Moghedien’s disguise be uncovered. And then there are the really repulsive things, like Compulsion. But at least the ter’angreal had been her achievement alone; after the a’dam to hold Moghedien, she had made a disc that allows someone not strong enough to work the invisibility trick alone to do it. She comments to Anaiya, though, that she hadn’t done as well with them as she’d like, and both Janya and Anaiya remonstrate with her for “sulking”; Elayne apologizes and makes her escape.

There was so much subterfuge here in Salidar. Not just Birgitte, and Moghedien. One of the Oaths kept an Aes Sedai from lying, but what was not spoken of did not have to be lied over. Moiraine had known how to weave a cloak of invisibility, maybe the same one they learned from Moghedien [...] Most Aes Sedai, maybe all, kept back at least part of what they learned; most had their own secret tricks. Those might become common knowledge taught to novices or Accepted, if enough Aes Sedai learned them—or they might die with the Aes Sedai.

[...] Knowing did not make her own deceptions more palatable, but maybe it helped a little. That, and remembering necessity. If only they would stop praising her for what she had not done.

She finds Min by the river; Min takes one look at her and knows she’s heard. She tells Elayne that Siuan wants her to spy on Rand for her. Elayne immediately replies, but she won’t, and Min gives her a grateful look. Elayne asks why Min was afraid to come to her about it; hadn’t they agreed a man was not going to come between them, even if they both loved him? Min points out that that was when they were both far away from Rand, and Elayne tries not to contemplate ways she could keep Min from joining the embassy. She asks if Min will carry a letter to Rand for her, and Min agrees immediately. Elayne then warns Min that she should not tell Rand about her viewing concerning him and them; Min agrees, but they disagree on what the effect will be if she did tell. Elayne thinks it would induce Rand to “decide to be noble” and “save” them by keeping away from both of them.

“Maybe,” Min said doubtfully. “Men are strange. More likely, if he realizes we’ll both come running when he crooks a finger, he’ll crook it. He won’t be able to help himself. I’ve seen them do it. I think it has something to do with the hair on their chins.” She had such a wondering look that Elayne was not sure whether or not that was a joke.

Elayne feels near-despair over the situation, and decides to change the subject. They briefly discuss Birgitte, Elayne carefully avoiding anything that would give Birgitte away, and Min offers her condolences over the news about Elayne’s mother. Elayne idly tries to affect the broiling heat with the Power, to no avail, as Min opines blithely that Rand is defeating all his enemies handily, and thinks the Last Battle “will be a walk”, and that they are winning.

Releasing the Source, Elayne sagged back, staring at a sky as empty as her mood had become. You did not need to be able to channel to see the Dark One’s hand at work, and if he could touch the world this much, if he could touch it at all . . . “Are we?” she said, but too softly for Min to hear.

Commentary
So I guess it’s LOC where the Prologues get officially out of hand, because damn.

It always seems to be where evil is most… evilish that Jordan really seemed to go all out with the description. You should definitely go back and read the bit with Demandred, because I mostly left out all the creepy imagery, and it is really well done.

Probably the most interesting thing about this bit is how it firmly establishes that the Dark One, while generally very impressive and scary and stuff, is in no way an omniscient being. (That he is not omnipotent is self-evident, seeing as all-powerful beings are probably pretty difficult to keep imprisoned.) This is in concordance with the general Western version of dualism in that the Satan figure, while powerful, is never actually the equal of the God figure. This being presumably to reassure us all that evil doesn’t ever get to really triumph over good.

(This is as opposed to the Eastern version of dualism (i.e. yin-yang), which is really nothing like the Western version, and yet Jordan manages to use concurrently with the God/Satan=Creator/Dark One parallel. Theological mashups FTW!)

I will confess, by the way, to a certain amount of deliberate mental hand-waving when it comes to the Dark One thing, because if I think about it too long I start to get really annoyed with the arbitrariness of his existence and seriously why create some ultimate evil dude and lock him up at the very moment he’s created just so some dumbass can go and let him out sooner or later and then the rest of humanity has to spend all their free time trying to stuff him back in his box, like, thanks, jerk.

But then again, I get the same way once I start contemplating why the damn apple tree had to be in the damn garden in the first place if A Certain Somebody didn’t want people eating them, so it’s not like Jordan’s version isn’t being faithful to the leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them subtext there. Yay?

Also, not to totally ruin the scene for you, but if I have to suffer SO DO YOU, because thanks to a certain unnamed poster on Usenet lo these many years ago, I cannot read the Dark One’s speech to Demandred here without hearing it in the Governator’s voice: VOULD YOU RELEASE DE BALEFYUH IN MY SERVICE, DEMAHNDREHD?

...Ow. You’re welcome.

I’m trying to remember now, does anyone (besides Rand) actually use balefire in LOC? And if so, on whom, and was it ever Demandred? I’m realizing, as I think about this, that though I remember the broad strokes of what happens in LOC, my memories of the details are actually a lot fuzzier than I thought. Well, that’ll make it more interesting, for sure.

Anyhow, more on Demandred later, when we see him in cahoots with the Dames Forsaken Finally Appearing In This Series. And by the way, I’m ignoring all the Asmodean-related hints and stuff from here on out; I’ve already covered all that, and I ain’t gonna no more, and you can’t make me. Nyah!

Nynaeve: I love how she and Siuan are so completely oil and water, and yet manage to work together anyway. Siuan continues to be awesome, as usual, and I have so much sympathy for her and Leane both.

Cue the usual fight over whether Siuan and Leane’s failure to perspire in LOC is a gaffe or not, considering they were sweating like pigs while journeying from Tar Valon to Salidar. I kind of tend to agree it probably was a little bit of a mistake on Jordan’s part, but one that was nicely rationalized by saying that they were so upset and traumatized initially by their stilling that they couldn’t maintain the concentration necessary to ignore the heat. Makes sense to me (as much sense as a completely imaginary mental discipline technique is going to make, anyway), and either way I do not propose to lose sleep on it.

I kind of disagree with Nynaeve’s calling Leane “vicious” for telling Elayne about Min going with the embassy; I see Nynaeve’s point, but at this stage I’m just happy when anyone is honest with anyone about anything in WOT, cause we’re about to see even less of that than we have previously.

On the Moghedien dilemma: people have complained variously about Nynaeve’s (and Elayne’s, and Birgitte’s, and etc.) failure to kill Moghedien on any number of occasions, but I really can’t agree with that. For one thing, killing in cold blood, no matter how evil the victim, is a surefire way to make significant headway towards crossing the Moral Event Horizon, and none of us wants that.

(By the way, I really would not click on that link unless you’ve got some serious free time at the moment. Consider yourself (belatedly) warned.)

For another, knowledge is power, my friends, and given what I just said about no one being especially keen on sharing knowledge round these parts, especially with the Supergirls (and I temporarily include Siuan and Leane in that group) being so low on the totem pole in Salidar, I can’t really fault them for seizing the unique opportunity presented by having a captive Forsaken to interrogate. If all your options are crappy, at least you can take the one where some good may be wrested from it.

The theme of the importance of knowledge is reiterated in Elayne’s POV, in her thoughts about the Aes Sedai’s “secret tricks”, and sets up what will be the major theme of LOC: the malignancy of misinformation. Indeed, the eponymous “chaos” is the direct result of everyone either not knowing enough about what’s going on, being deliberately or accidentally misinformed on what’s going on, or not believing what they do know about what’s going on even when it’s the truth. And not-so-wacky hijinks ensue!

Min: Sheesh, girl. Way to jinx everyone. Why don’t you just break a mirror and kill a black cat with it while standing under a ladder? And then spill some salt on it? On Friday the Thirteenth? AND THEN DON’T KNOCK ON WOOD? Huh?


...yeah, I don’t know, it’s been a long day. So the madness, she stops here! FOR NOW. Have a golly-gee-willikers good time this weekend, kids, but watch that williker intake, because otherwise reentry can be a bitch, y’all. See you Monday! Peace out, yo!

156 comments
Shelbourn
1. Shelbourn
I have to agree. At this point the prologues really do get out of control.
I too, love the Demandred opening.
John Fitzingo
2. Xandar01
I think I remember when I first saw the cover art, I was hoping that the AS shown was Moiraine.
Captain Hammer
3. Randalator
Oooooooooh, a shiny new re-read post. Woohoo, send word to one and all, and all and one... that's a little redundant, isn't it?
James Jones
4. jamesedjones
A new post! Yay! Welcome back, Perrin. You were missed during the last...

Waitaminute! Where's Perrin?! What do you mean, 'Not until Monday'? Aarrgh!

Hi Leigh. Ya, I understand about the prologue. sigh Ah well.
Sean Banawnie
5. Seanie
Good Stuff Leigh . As always. Lots to digest.

Must..go...to...work....arrrggghhhhhh
Luke M
6. lmelior
Yay Robin Hood Men in Tights reference!

Poor DO, stuck with the Eternal Caps Lock.

I remember getting pretty excited at this point because I thought Elayne was going to make a lot more cool ter'angreal. And then I read 4,000 pages of her doing exactly not that.

Nynaeve getting ready to heal stilling: awesome. Still hoping for Flinn to Heal Siuan and Leane correctly.

Welcome back, Perrin. You were missed...

Not by me. I know this book isn't bad for his story, but I really dread slogging through what's to come.
Shelbourn
7. Herr_Flick
I think I remember when I first saw the cover art, I wondered if whoever kept hiring the artist was blind.
Marcus W
8. toryx
LoC, for all the unbelievably long Prologue, is probably my favorite of the prologues because things actually happen.

After this one, however, it all goes down hill. I don't remember which prologue it is, either Path of Daggers or Winter's Heart that almost made me stop reading the series entirely, but I dread it so, so much.

I so enjoyed starting this book with the Dark One and Demandred on my initial read. It's awesome to finally meet the Great Evil and actually enter Shayol Ghul.
Maggie M
9. Eswana
Oh dear Lord, LoC has absolutely my LEAST favorite WoT cover art ever. Agh.

But what a kickin' (if really loooooooooong) Prologue!

Just throwing this out there- of Rand's three women, Min and Elayne have probably the weirdest relationship. Elayne and Avienda are pretty tight from here (Avi's arrival) on out due to their exploits in Ebou Dar, and Min and Avienda have a grudging respect for one another even if they're not BFFs. However, Min and Elayne- it seems strange to me. They've known each other since tGH, and performed feats of Daring Rescue in Falme, but they're not really friends, just mutual friends of Egwene and Nynaeve's. It just seems a little odd that they're both SO totally okay with sharing Rand since they're not that close. Avienda, raised in a polygamous culture, is cool with it, and a little of the attitude rubs off on Elayne too, eventually, but I don't really quite get how Min and Elayne are so buddy-buddy. It feels a little forced.

Eh, whatever.

So much awesomeness goes down in this book- Dumai's Wells, Healing Logain/Siuan/Leanne, Egwene becomes Amyrlin......... I'm giddy with excitement!!

I am also incredibly thankful that the Taimandred debate was put to rest years ago and so HAD BETTER NOT come up this time. AHEM. ::glares::
Shelbourn
10. catchinUp
Is it just me, or did RJ "gloss over" a fairly significant event?

Nyn had Mog leashed, bound and beaten in TaR; and figures out she's in Sali, and forkroots her to sleep... all well and good.

Next thing we have Nyn a'damed to Mogi, and they're making "discoveries"
WAIT A MINUTE!

How did Elayne manage to make a fully functioning a'dam prior to Mogi/Marigan waking up?

How did they find Marigan was Mogi? A casual house by house search for someone sleeping? Without anyone noticing? (imagine the confrontation if an AS happened to be taking a nap at that time, and they came across her)

How do they get information from Mogi without anyone noticing? "We're off to make another major discovery... but we've got to do it behind closed doors, with our handmaiden present... please don't look behind the curtian"
I've gotta say, the way AS treat their students (and the world) I can't imagine they wouldn't insist on sitting in on the process and "helping"

Not to mention (as was pointed out during their time at the tower) the SuperGirls seem to have a lot of free time. Not to mention, that no one seems to question they're only Accepted with Marigan, Birgette, Thom and Julian (and Uno?) all hanging about - in a town described as bustling with war preparations.
Marcus W
11. toryx
Eswana @ 9:

I always thought Min's approach to sharing Rand made a lot of sense. She's been dealing with those viewings her whole life; she's had more than enough time to accept the reality of what she's viewed. Besides, she also seems to know herself better than either Elayne or Aviendha.

I can't say that I agree about Elayne. I don't think she's accepting of Min's place in Rand's affection at all. She says she is, but her actions show things very differently. Particularly that letter she has Min deliver to Rand, talking about how she cares for Min like a sister and hopes that he shares her feelings. Evil little backstabber.

As far as the cover goes, I have to admit I really like Rand's shirt. I've always wanted one just like it.
Bill Siegel
12. ubxs113
I may be alone here but I would have serious reservations about holding onto Moggie. Moral Relativism is a hallmark of the bad guy who thinks they're being good, but really it just them trying to justify their reprehensible behavior.
john massey
13. subwoofer
Hi Leigh- Good times! Missed ya much:)

Mwuhahahahaha!!! rubs hands together

New Post- fresh meat mmmmmmmmm

edit- And I'm Lucky 13!!!

But then again, so is Kurt Warner so meh.
Shelbourn
14. catchinUp
oh @6
does she ever make a ter'angreal? beyond the "green plaque of invisibility" that never gets used or mentioned again.
paul Hend
15. tugthis
I suggested earlier that Nyn should have killed Moggy initially. It occurs now, thanks to Nyn's POV that there is an other, less morally ambiguous option: turn her over for trial to the Salidar AS.
Besides being in some way just. After all who is in a position to try and bring to justice 3000 year old murderers? If the argument was initially that NYN killing her in cold blood was unacceptable why then not turn her over for justice?

The self rightous answer (for the light) is that she can be pumped for information and her eventual judgement forstalled. . . A little like the current policy of Rendition where a suspect is captured and detained secreteley as long as they are useful then. . . well who knows.

The Salidar AS could show both their legitimacy and relevance by conducting a trial of a captured Foresaken. It would clear up NYN's moral qualms--- willing to subjugate, torture, and exploit, but not murder.

In the end, I don't think there is any doubt that Moggy should end at the end of a balefire gibbet, but it is morally wrong to treat her this way. and dangerous as well.
Shelbourn
16. SN00
Question Re: all the fabuloso discoveries vis-a-vis Supergirls - what all did they really get from Moggy? Not traveling, until Egwene busts in much later. Not healing, not weather...what then? A bit about hiding weaves and power ability, but they can't share those goodies. So what is it that they actually learn from her that makes them the darlings of Salidar? Do we ever learn?

(How to fight Shadowspawn? Too useful. How to build incredible cities? Too long-term. How to fly? Can't be done. How to make Ter'Angreal? Learned on their own. How to enjoy luxurious baths and admire horses? AH-HA! That explains the next 3,000 pages of description of the wandering Salidar crew...)
mark Proctor
17. mark-p
The prologs wouldn't be so bad if they didn't try to summarise the previous books using characters internal monologues so much. But I think they aimed at people who don't do rereads like us.

I'm half expecting the Dark One to be like the Wizard of Oz, with a little man hiding behind a curtain controlling everything.

This is about the only small glimpse we see of Thakandar, its a creepy place.
What powers the evil golem like sword smiths, it seems to be some sort of magic we haven't seen before which i guess comes from the DO?

One thing I have been thinking about for a couple of days is how many Trollocs are there? and what do they eat?
If there were many hundreds of thousands and all they ate were people, cattle etc. taken in raids then the boarder lands would be in a worse state than they are.
So either there are fewer Trollocs (and the last battle wont be quite as many expect) or they have their own system of agriculture. But I can't imagine a Trolloc tending a flock of sheep and they seem to be running out of slaves. Or is there a better scenario?
I'm probably taking this too seriously, maybe they just get their groceries at Walmart like everyone else.
Julian Augustus
18. Alisonwonderland
I remember the first time I read Lord of Chaos so many years ago (1995)... I had just finished the awesomeness that was the end of tFoH that afternoon, and so when I opened LoC that evening and read the first few lines of the Prologue: Demandred stepped on the slopes of Shayol Ghul ... I felt such a thrill I had to put the book down for minute before continuing. I don't recall ever feeling that way for a book, not before or since.
Don Barkauskas
19. bad_platypus
catchinUp @14
does she ever make a ter'angreal? beyond the "green plaque of invisibility" that never gets used or mentioned again.

She makes copies of the dream ter'angreals (the Moebius ring and the spiral disc) that the Salidar people use extensively over the next books. I don't recall any others.
Pete Pratt
20. PeteP
This cover always makes me think of Gone with the Wind.

Or some cheap romance novel. Just needs Fabio as Rand.

The prologues are great -- really novellas in themselves. KoD's was just awesome with Galad.
Julian Augustus
21. Alisonwonderland
mark-p@17:
The blight is a huuuuge expanse of land, and I think humans are able to survive only the first few miles before succumbing to man-eating plants, worms, and what not. What is in the vast majority of that expanse is unknown. It can easily contain a couple of million trollocs and their own agriculture - sheep, goats, cattle, etc.

Who knows, Aginor the genetist has probably invented a new species of super-sheep that grow up and are ready to eat in just a week, or super-cattle that give birth to ten calves at a time and are ready to repeat that process every month. This is fantasy!
Lannis .
22. Lannis
Thanks for the recap, Leigh! Have a great weekend!

Like Alisonwonderland, I can remember getting all tingly when reading the Demandred/DO conversation... I felt like we were kicking it off in high gear! And then... the prologue just kept going, and going, and going... ugh.

Ditto for all those who've mentioned the gaudy pink/purple cover art. Let's not talk about the strange physical dimensions Rand has here, K?
Maggie M
23. Eswana
mark-p @17
LOL the Dark One totally shops at Wal-Mart

That's awesome.

Re; How did they collar Moghedian? I think when the Girls arrived in Salidar they had an a'dam they'd gotten in Tanchico somehow. Maybe Elayne managed to 1)steal it back to use on Moghedian or 2) make a copy, which they used on Moghedian? 2) seems more likely since her a'dam doesn't have a leash like the originals do.
JS Bangs
24. jaspax
You do know that "El Nombre Seis" means "The Name Six", right? "The Number Six" would be El Número Seis.
Antoni Ivanov
25. tonka
10.catchinUp

Use your imagination. I have a few perfectly good explanation to all the answers there which completely satisfy me. Some don't even want much of an imagination - like how they find Marigan? Seriously ? It's not like they didn't know each other ... come on.

And don't forget that it is more than a month after the action in TFOH ( per this timeline which I totally and completely trust.Just saying. Oh well the actions here (with Min and Elayne are approximately week after TFOH though.
Leigh Butler
26. leighdb
jaspax @ 24:

I totally knew that. Totally.

I was just testing you. I like to make sure you guys, like, learn, and stuff.

*slinks away*
Marcus W
27. toryx
Leigh:

No biggie. That's just what they call a wee little whoopsidaisy.
Shelbourn
28. catchinUp
@23 Re: Collaring Moghedian

I'm totally cool with Elayne making a leashless copy of the a'dam - or pulling out some bolt cutters and removing the leash of the one they have.

It's a question of timing though - all this had to be done after Nyneave woke up and before Marigan did.

And, all they know (or assume) is that Moggy is in Salidar and she should be roofied on forkroot. They should be looking for a sleeping strong channeller who looks like Moggy; not a sleeping non-channeler (masked ability) that doesn't look like Moggy and has been travelling with them.
Shelbourn
29. douglasm
catchinUp@28
If it were possible for them to feel Moggy's ability that by itself would have unmasked her instantly loooooong ago, and the ability to disguise appearance with the One Power is common knowledge for Aes Sedai. Thus, channeling strength and appearance are useless indicators and both Elayne and Nynaeve knew this.

They looked for someone who a) was female; b) was in Salidar; c) had no prior established history with Aes Sedai or themselves; d) was close enough to them in Salidar to have observed them a lot; and e) could have tracked them from their last location known to be known to Moghedian. Marigan fits the bill perfectly. Nicola and Areina are runners up, but neither of them fits Moggy's skills and personality. No one else is even close. By the time Nynaeve wakes up they already had all the information they needed to ID her, the forkroot symptoms and snapping the a'dam around her neck were merely confirmation.

As for the creation of the leashless a'dam so quickly, remember that it was the very first ter'angreal Elayne ever studied, she had studied it quite thoroughly, and she had already thought about removing the leash from the physical structure. She understood it very well and could have reasonably made it quite quickly. On top of this, I'm sure Nynaeve made the forkroot tea very strong, and even after Moggy woke up she would have been helpless or nearly so for a considerable while.
Marcus W
30. toryx
Douglasm @ 29 said:

On top of this, I'm sure Nynaeve made the forkroot tea very strong, and even after Moggy woke up she would have been helpless or nearly so for a considerable while.

That's the most important part of this. It's not just a matter of finding someone asleep; all they had to do was find a woman who was practically paralyzed. That would have stood out a great deal, especially if Marigan was sharing a room or building with Nicola and Areina. If either of them had woken up and found Marigan unable to move or speak, they'd likely have gone to Birgitte right away who in turn would have gone straight to Elayne.

I can't imagine that Elayne would have been able to make the bracelet and collar immediately, but it wouldn't have been hard to dose Marigan whenever needed until the a'dam was ready.
Antoni Ivanov
31. tonka
catchinUp@28

Oh you mean how did they found out that Marigan was Moghedien.

It was always obvious to me, I never give it a thought. It just flow logically - when Ny said she will find her in the real world , I always suspected Marigan - the way she appeared, the way she treats her children and I don't know , it just flow naturally.
Sam Mickel
32. Samadai
douglasm,
the forkroot would have made Moggy not able to channel, so in effect her ability would be unmasked. Also from the way Nyn saidwhat she said she already had suspicion of who she was
Maiane Bakroeva
33. Isilel
Yay for the evil part of the prologue! Absolutely awesome - and we _still_ don't know what Demandred has been doing! Argh!

I have to say that I really like Siuan - I am now re-reading TGH and I have been surprised to notice that she used to be both a much more conventional AS than Moiraine (I have forgotten what a nightmarish subordinate Mo made for an Amyrlin, LOL - like Miles Vorkosigan, almost) and justly afraid of her fate. Yet, when the worst happened Siuan kept going and dragging the unwilling, obstinate collection of AS along the right path by means fair and foul. Leane is nice too - but she is more of a bit character.

I felt a serious disconnect with TFoH at Nyn's and El's lack of useful training in Salidar, though. I mean, they have haphazardly learned various stuff about channeling in their travels, but it looked to me previously that there ought to be more stuff to learn yet.

And even if not - doesn't Nyn like completely lack the education that any AS is supposed to have? No Old Tongue, no history, no geography, no knowledge of laws, etc.? And even Elayne couldn't have known it all at 16. So, huh? Why aren't they studying from dawn till dusk?

Re: Rand's threesome, yea, problematic. Also, didn't Min only talk with Rand once in Baerlon at this point? I mean, many people consider the Rand-Min romance to be the most natural of the 3, but I am not seeing it.

Re: Moggy - I am not sure whether it is fair to give Rand a free pass on Asmo, yet condemn the SGs.I do think that the Forsaken are absolutely worthy of killing even in cold blood, but the argument of lost knowledge is a persuasive one.

I really, really hope that Elayne finally hangs the BAs in her custody, though, before they can escape yet again, killing people in the process ditto. I mean, as a Queen she has the authority to condemn them, right?
Joseph Blaidd
34. SteelBlaidd
TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life >:D

The problem with turning in Moggy is that they will first have to explain how they cought her, that will drop the dime on Siuan and Leane and turn the whole operation to a group whose main purpose is to maintain the White Tower and not protect the world.

Elayne can't hang the BA she has in custody they need to be tried by the WT. Though stilling might be acceptable as it is now reversable >:D


Just for fun, here is a breakdown of the Mormon
understanding of the fall, which basicly boils down to God presenting Adam and Eve a choice. Either they stay innocent, ignorent, and childless in the Garden or they accept the responsibilities and oppourtunities of adulthood and family.
Michael Catapano
35. hoping
Great recap

I don't have my books with me but I think that elayne received an adam from Egeanin or maybe it was one of the other seanchan.
Or is this another of my faulty memories?
If noone confirms, I'll try to find it this weekend.
Jay Dauro
36. J.Dauro
Isilel @33

Although at the end of KOD Elayne has gotten enough support to be Queen, she was not yet crowned.

As Queen, she could probably execute the BA. But she has a POV near the end of KOD where she has taken their Great Serpant rings and melted them down. She thinks that this was not her perogitive, it was Egwene's, and that she may get in trouble for it. I believe she feels that they have to be tried, stilled and executed by the AS.

hoping @35

Elayne got an a'dam while in the traveling show, from Cerandine (TFoH 24). However, when they get to Salidar, they show it to the AS, and it is confiscated (TFoH 50).
Shelbourn
37. trekkiechick
Great post, Leigh! Totally agree, these Prologues just get ridiculously long from here on out, but at least this one is interesting, unlike some of the others.

@33
Also, didn't Min only talk with Rand once in Baerlon at this point?

Min spent the whole winter between The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn in the mountains with Rand, Perrin, Moiraine and the Shienarians. She doesn't leave until Mo sends her to the Tower.

Can't wait for the stilling Healing and Egwene the Amyrlin!
Jason Lyman
38. jlyman
@34. SteelBlaidd

Concerning the LDS beliefs in the fall, that's basically it in a nutshell. I think it's why we generally have an easy time accepting what happened. We feel it was a necessary progression and so there wasn't anything inherently evil about it.

Lucifer was there to tempt them to break the commandments and since they were already "breaking" the commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth," he had to get them to break the other one, which was not to eat the apple. Lots of speculation on all the particulars, but that's pretty much it. They both made the choice and while losing the paradisiacal garden life, they gained knowledge of good and evil from the hard life that came after they were kicked out.

But enough of that. I was just glad you were pulling it from the LDS website. Yay "going to the source!"

Back to the show...

I totally agree about the length of the prologues. I kept thinking that it would never end when I first read it.
Maiane Bakroeva
39. Isilel
@37

Thanks, I have forgotten about Min wintering with Rand after TGH. Well, in this case...
Shelbourn
40. Drew Holton
While I too thought it was a bit of a jump to assume they would deduce who Marigan/Moggy was in the time allowed, and do so without the other AS catching on, I could still accept it. But what bothers me is that the a'dam they're using seems to give Moggy a lot more freedom of movement than the Seanchan ones. Normally, if the bracelet isn't being worn, the collared one can't move. But the Supergirls take it off *all the time*, and Moggy still goes about doing her chores, up to a mile away for all we know. What exactly was the range on it anyway?

BTW, I don't have a problem with the Supergirls keeping Moggy prisoner. It wasn't like they were going to release her, and they planned on ultimately turning her over for justice. But given RJ's description of the DO having the world like a boxer on the ropes, I think they could be justified in seeking any advantage they could get with things so desperate. And while Rand's use of Asmodean wouldn't justify them doing the same, if it is wrong, nobody ever seems to complain about *his* use of a Forsaken. Double Standard?
Shelbourn
41. gbm
Isilel@33

"Re: Rand's threesome, yea, problematic. Also, didn't Min only talk with Rand once in Baerlon at this point? I mean, many people consider the Rand-Min romance to be the most natural of the 3, but I am not seeing it."

Rand and Min spent weeks/months together with Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, and the Shienarans. after Falme. This was before Rand runs off on his own, heading for Tear at which time Moiraine send Min to the White Tower.
Rich Gold
42. richg25
>> I’m trying to remember now, does anyone (besides Rand) actually use balefire in LOC?

I'll give you a big hint leigh! "Don't cross the streams - that would be bad."
Andrew Lovsness
43. drewlovs
ARRRGH!~!! My post got eaten by my connection!!

Leane v. Nynaeve on giving Elayne the "min is going to see Rand" information. It is a younger v. older point of view contest; Leane sees in the longterm, and knew Elayne and Min's friendship, to exist after Min was gone, NEEDED the "in person" confrontation. Nynaeve only sees in the shortterm,and the immediate pain Elayne will be in. I could be wrong, of course; it is just my opinion.

Nynaeve v. Severing. Yay!! This "I can heal anything" attitude was one of the attributes of Nynaeve I really loved, as she reminds me so much of my grandmother. She also though there was nothing that could not be fixed. She had the patience Nynaeve seems to lack, but that doesn't bother me; it just means my grandmother was cooler. =)

Even on review, there definitely a "matter of time" feel to her explorations. Anyone else feel that way? Kinda a Chekhov's gun sort of situation... I just wish it could have been sooner, ya know?
Shelbourn
44. Brad21088
I really hope that when Moghedien finally dies for real for reals, it's Nynaeve who offs her.
j p
45. sps49
First half of the Prologue?

Our only hope is either:

The reread will end in time for the penultimate book, not tGS, or

Leigh rereads the Chapters of Paddedness but writes, say, one paragraph for The Great (Faile) Hunt.

Please note this is not a complaint; this is a fun journey and I don't want it rushed.
Andrew Lovsness
46. drewlovs
As per the a'dam that the SGs use on Moggy. Remember, the first time Elayne realizes she might be able to make ter'angreals was examining the captured a'dam, and it was not a huge jump for me to think that Elayne's first attempts to make one was just a re-engineering that same a'dam.

Thus, they had a few to use, if only one "working" model.

After all, what would she feel the most comforable in creating... a ter'angreal she has seen before and has confidence to re-make, or a ter'angreal that she is inventing all by her onesies?

We are seeing them a month after we left them, and a given piece of information is she has been experimenting with ter'angreal. We KNOW she has been creating items, and one of those, in my opinion, must be a a'dam.
D Z
47. Hopper
@45

Ya I just caught up to the new posts... I was hoping it would be done by TGS, but when I looked at how long it took to get here, I don't think that will happen.

Although, I seem to remember a whole lot of nothing happening from here on out with about one or two significant events thrown in and a bunch of annoying minor plot lines...

maybe there could be a separate, more abridged re-read started that can be finished by November???

Leigh, love the posts, will read them till the end, but do you know anybody that could possibly get a condensed re-read done by Nov? (although if this one could be done by then I would much prefer that)
Alice Arneson
48. Wetlandernw
Hopper @47 (and others)

Let me just remind you, regarding the re-read and timing thereof:
When originally conceived, the idea behind this blog series had been to complete a readthrough of all eleven books in time for the release of the final book in the fall. The result has been the frankly rather punishing pace you’ve seen here for the first few books, plus the knowledge that I would not be able to include New Spring for lack of time. But now that we know that the story will not be finished after all in November… well, it seems kind of silly to keep to that schedule, especially since I was uncertain of being able to reach the finish line on time anyway.

...

I think this is a good thing all around; it means I can include New Spring, for one thing, and it also means I can devote more time to the commentary for each chapter, and hopefully even have more time to participate in the comments with you guys, which would be awful nice. It also means I might possibly be able to participate in extracurricular activities again, like seeing my friends and, you know, sleeping and stuff. That would be rather awesome. Not to mention, there are some very cool side-ish projects that Tor.com and I are cooking up that now I can take more time for, which is also of the Good.

As far as the new books themselves, they of course will be included in the re-read and commentary, and I’ll probably do a separate review of my own of the whole first volume when it comes out (since we will not be up to it in the re-read anymore when it is released).

(From the introduction to TSR Part 4, dated Monday, March 30, 2009.)
Shelbourn
49. kab1
For those that are looking for a shorter reread there is a pdf that was just posted over at the dragonmount site. It's not a reread but rather a condensed summary of where each character is and what (major) plot lines are going on at the end of KOD. From what I understand there was one done before the release of the last few books. So, it's not a super fun reread like this, but if you read the last couple of them it should at least help to shake the memory loose on what the heck is going on in these books!
D Z
50. Hopper
Thanks!

I've been speeding through the posts to get caught up and never saw that. Makes a lot of sense, these are thick books and I think it will take a lot of time to do them justice.

I will definitely check out that pdf though (its been a looong time for me, and I don't want to enter TGS unprepared)

Definitely looking forward to finishing this though. Very impressed by Leigh's work.
Joseph Blaidd
51. SteelBlaidd
RE:Recaps
There is also always Brandon's Reread

Link to Dragonmount.com recap of all of the books
Chapter summeries at TarValon.net

One of the things I've always appreciated about Rand's Harem is their recognition that the only way their relationship will work is if they care for each other as much as for him.

@jlyman
Elders Quorum Pres;)
Susan Brownhill
52. SusanB
I spent the weekend and most of today trying to finish this prologue. I kept thinking "How is Leigh going to finish this? It's soooo long". Then I finally finish & get on here and its only half the prologue! LOL! Oh well, I guess I'm ready for monday. :)

I love Nyn & all the scenes with her. I too hope she is the one to eventually off Moggy.

I think the Elayne/Min relationship is plausible. I imagine that Elayne has been kept pretty buzy (even if we haven't seen it, so she hasn't had time to bond with Min.
john mullen
53. johntheirishmongol
I don't know why all you dont like the size of the prologues. They were usually released a while before the regular book and helped cover the void of time between the last book and the newest.

Anyway, I didn't get too much "ooo scary" with the Demandred visiting Shayol Ghul discription. One of the things a lot of writer's use is this "I want you to do this...and then let you wonder what it was. I always considered that a kind of tease that was too easy and not very interesting, because then it could be almost anything. And frankly, I never thought this particular little job went anywhere.

As for Marigan, I thought Ny figured it out pretty well at the end of the previous book and I did remember Elayne saying she thought could make an a'dam. I did agree with Ny that it was unnecessarily cruel to remind Elayne that Min would see Rand and she would not. I think Ny nerves are totally shot because of Lan, and she is looking for an excuse to go get him, if she only knew where he was (and I think the look Myrelle gives Ny, she knows Lan is getting close and how they feel)

Anyway, I do believe this is one of the good books in the series, because at the end of it...I think my personal fave omg moment arrives, when the AS kneel as swear fealty to Rand.
Brett Michie
54. bchurch
RE: use of balefire in LoC

I'm pretty sure that the Crossing of the Streams takes place at the end of CoS.

I can't recall anyone using balefire in LoC, even Rand, but I could be wrong.
craig thrift
55. gagecreedlives
for those looking for a quicker summary than the reread you could always check out http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/
Peter Nein
56. gimpols1908
y'all can hate on the prologues all you want... in fact i really loath the prologues... however in Crossroads of Twilight the prologue redeems itself by being the only chapter where something actually happens. This may be a bit early but I just got through my reread of it and NOTHING HAPPENS. The whole of the book is waiting for people to acknowledge that something really big has happened and they barely do. GAAAH
Aidan Young
57. aidanyoung1102
@16 LMAO about horses and hot baths. And sniffs and chilly stares, and... MAN! The supergirls are LAME!

@17.
"The prologs wouldn't be so bad if they didn't try to summarise the previous books using characters internal monologues so much. But I think they aimed at people who don't do rereads like us."

It's always bothered me that Robert Jordan spends so much time "reintroducing" characters at the beginning of each new book. Like we forgot who Lan is! I definitely find myself skimming those early chapters in the re-reads but they're really annoying when you're listening on the cds.

@24 "You do know that "El Nombre Seis" means "The Name Six", right? "The Number Six" would be El Número Seis." LMAO!!! But I totally missed that.

On the pace of the re-read: we've been averaging roughly 2 chapters per post and 3 posts per week, so that's roughly 6 chapters a week. We have 12.5 weeks until November 4th, at which point the whole world will stand still for about a week an then there will be an explosion of excitement.

So 12.5 x 6 = about 75 chapters between now and then. There are 55 Chapters in LOC and 41 in aCOS. I imagine we'll be somewhere in the middle of aCOS when the book comes out.
Shelbourn
58. Aye Aye Sedai
Questions I have are - how does imaginary forkroot in TAR keep her sleeping in the real world - Ny should have held her in TAR but not in the real world.

Also how did Ravi's death get publicized so quickly - NYN, MOGI and Rand were the only ones in TAR and then after leaving it might be apparent that Gabrael was vanquished - but who would know that he was BFed and gone for good???

IF the timing was just so - the the DO could have given DMD the mission to kill Asmo - thus allowing for better timing that we saw in the Mission Impossible movies (uggh). Like you could put on a complete rubber mask and assume an identity as fast as you could rip it off - and hide a duct tapes mouth under said mask.

RE AS and Elayne - could have had wonderful uses for the one power - invisible warders, AS but then we could be having the pots wash themselves -WT has gotta be the worst sorority ever.

Do we notice that Siuan now is in love with Robert E (oops I Mean) Bloody Bryne after her corporal punishment.

And I disagree with poster from long back that a "body slave" means "sex slave" it just means their bloody butler/maid .- it is used on other places and is well explained in context.

Later
Shelbourn
59. michelllee
Does anyone else hate Min? Sorry, but I never really liked Min at all throughout the series, even though everyone else seems to looove her, I never really understood why?
Aidan Young
60. aidanyoung1102
Hi everyone, the last link for the dragonmount recap actually only took us up to the end of CoT. Here's the link that takes you through Knife Of Dreams
Amar Ramraj
61. aiel1219
Heya all,
Nombre seis??? Leigh u sure u gt the right series?
LOL!!! Name six...

Sometimes I feel horrible knowing what you go through for us Leigh.... OMG this Prologue is llllloooooooonnnnng-g-g-g!

About Elayne making the a'dam- she had already been studyin it while in the travelling circus and she'd even told Nynaeve that she thought she could make one... even mentioned that she didn't think the cord/chain was necessary. So no real big surprise there.

I'm not exactly sure how Nyn figured it was Marigan... the evidence she went on was that she (mogi) knew Siuan was X-amarylin, Nynaeve had to run errands for Faolain and also that Birgette was still alive.

Balefire is next used by Mogi when she trys to off Nynaeve in the boat IIRC. Which is not in this book. I think that we get a very strong reaction from LTT when Rand thinks abt using balefire... almost like he's scared of it.

n just a random question:
Does anyone else think that the SEALS have to be destroyed before Rand can seal the bore?
Shelbourn
62. twicemarked
about Elayne and the making of ter'angreal

I don't remember where I read this, but it implied Elayne used the silver arrow that felt out of TAR with Birgitte to make the wireless a'dam.

There is one thing I don't get about making ter'angreal. All the know ones, plus whatever Elayne made, are made from metal, gem stone, and other hard substance. Don't they need a jeweler to make the base item, and somehow "enchant" it later? Or the stone/metal just magically changed to the right shape and shave off the excess parts not needed? Maybe that is why it is hard to make one, having to maintain an identical matrix while shaping it like a piece of art.
Julian Augustus
63. Alisonwonderland
Michelllee@59
Does anyone else hate Min? Sorry, but I never really liked Min at all throughout the series, even though everyone else seems to looove her, I never really understood why?

Because she is the only female in the entire series who has absolutely no personal agenda, whose sole reason for being there is to love Rand and help him? Without Min to calm him down and constantly remind him of his humanity, Rand would be completely crazy by now. And Rand continuing to function and remaining relatively sane is supremely important for the ultimate triumph of the light, don't you think? Min's function is just as important, if not more so, than the power trips the other supergirls are on.
Shelbourn
64. Aye Aye Sedai
Demandred answers he only wishes to serve, and screams as the voice gives him the knowledge of “who will die and who will live”.

Who is he supposed to kill/let live?? This thread seems to have been dropped.

Forsaken plans seem to be all over the place -

Where did all the Trollics go? Any Dreadlords to be seen - perhaps the light wins by disrupting the DO supply of evil henchmen?

Dandy - Where o where can he be?

Grundy - Off in her flesh palace - no idea what her plans are,

Messy - screwing with the AS and BA. Semy - leading the seanchean return - planing to win by force or guile.

Sammy - is/was in Ilian. Local fieifdom - not big plans,

Haly - screwing with the Rebels and EGs headaches - but then kills some AS heading to the privy ? and releases Moggy from one slave dom to another.

Cyndy - slave of Mory - no plans of own
Moggy - no plans of own

Ary /Dashy- trying to kill/save HWCWTD - wtf mate? Running around like that will get you killed - see what I mean :)

Mory - Wandering around claiming to be Nably not sure what his vision is (other than obscured by Saa)

Of course the light will win when the dark cants even organize a good tea party.
Shelbourn
65. Aye Aye Sedai
Demandred answers he only wishes to serve, and screams as the voice gives him the knowledge of “who will die and who will live”.

Who is he supposed to kill/let live?? This thread seems to have been dropped.

Forsaken plans seem to be all over the place -

Where did all the Trollics go? Any Dreadlords to be seen - perhaps the light wins by disrupting the DO supply of evil henchmen?

Dandy - Where o where can he be?

Grundy - Off in her flesh palace - no idea what her plans are,

Messy - screwing with the AS and BA. Semy - leading the seanchean return - planing to win by force or guile.

Sammy - is/was in Ilian. Local fieifdom - not big plans,

Haly - screwing with the Rebels and EGs headaches - but then kills some AS heading to the privy ? and releases Moggy from one slave dom to another.

Cyndy - slave of Mory - no plans of own
Moggy - no plans of own

Ary /Dashy- trying to kill/save HWCWTD - wtf mate? Running around like that will get you killed - see what I mean :)

Mory - Wandering around claiming to be Nably not sure what his vision is (other than obscured by Saa)

Of course the light will win when the dark cants even organize a good tea party.
Antoni Ivanov
66. tonka
@ 58.Aye Aye Sedai

That's from Robert Jordan:

Q: Can you explain a bit about the properties of the World of Dreams? Such as when Nynaeve forced Moghedien to drink forkroot tea, which caused the Forsaken to fall asleep. But within that same book, the Wise Ones tell Egwene that drinking tea will in Tel'aran'rhiod will cause no effects upon the body.
RJ: It's a strong matter of belief. If you believe something like that will happen to you, then it can and does.


--------


Q: Can you shield someone who is in Tel'aran'rhiod by shielding their sleeping body?
RJ: If you are injured in Tel'aran'rhiod it will be transferred to your body, but not vice versa.
Shielding someone in Tel'aran'rhiod will shield the body, but shielding the body is not transferred to Tel'aran'rhiod. They can channel in Tel'aran'rhiod, but of course when they come out, they are shielded.


As you can see if something happens in TAR it happens in the real world too (but not vice versa)


As for how the Forsaken know that Rahvin is dead - it's days after Rahvin's dead , Rand has Caemlyn , probably while Graendal and Sammael were there hiding. As for how Demandred know - we don't know nothing about Demandred , neither who he is posing as, what is he doing - nothing.
j p
67. sps49
@48- yes, thank you.

@51-

Thanks. Myself, I read fast- I try to keep pace with Leigh and get pulled into the book again, whoosh! I like Leigh's rereads for the funny (her and the posters'), not to catch up. The Encyclopedia WOT is great for checking who so-and-so is, and the plot threads.
Sydo Zandstra
68. Fiddler
@Aye Aye Sedai:
Questions I have are - how does imaginary forkroot in TAR keep her sleeping in the real world - Ny should have held her in TAR but not in the real world.

Forkroot has a physical effects on channelers. They drop down into unconsciousness heavily.

Like being shot with an arrow, think on Slayer in tSR, so will a dose of TAR forkroot carry on in the waking world.


Moghedien: here is an ethical dilemma. Should Nynaeve kill her? Should Nynaeve and Elayne keep her to wring knowledge from? Or should Moghedien be turned over to the Salidar authorities?

My instinct says Nynaeve should have killed her, especially since Moghedien escaped her once before in Tanchico. I know Rand kept Asmodean to learn from, but that's not a fair counter argument. Randland is full of female channelers, and saidar is clean. Rand had nobody to learn (unclean) saidin from, and he's on a tight schedule. It would have been one more Forsaken down, and that is good.

Rationality says that Nynaeve and Elayne were right in keeping her to wring knowledge from. Knowledge is power, after all.

Common sense (well the WoT version of it) says that giving Moghedien over to Salidar authorities would have been disastrous, and I'm not even counting the penalties that would have been laid on Elayne and Nynaeve here.

Does anybody think that Moghedien would have been tried on the spot there, based on Nynaeve and Elayne, two Accepted, saying that this Marigan woman is a Forsaken, at that time in Salidar?


I can live with their decision to keep Moghedien captive. Nynaeve killing a captive without a trial would have been seriously out of character. The same goes for Elayne. Birgitte would have done it, but she wasn't able to call the shot.


BTW, I'm really looking forward to see Moghedien again, after her thougt about 'never going to be afraid again' after fleeing Shadar Logoth at the Cleansing of Saidin. I'm guessing we'll be going to see a way more openly agressive Forsaken there.
Maiane Bakroeva
69. Isilel
Michelllee @59

Does anyone else hate Min?

I don't hate her, but IMHO she is a bit of a damp rag and I didn't find her single-minded pursuit of Rand all that endearing. And of course she screws up things for him mightily with the 2 embassies and Semi.
But she also does the very open-minded and noble thing re: her co-haremists and she loves Rand without any complications and keeps him as human as he is.

Still, her high point for me was when she rescued Siuan and Leane in TSR.
Captain Hammer
70. Randalator
Drew Holton @40

But what bothers me is that the a'dam they're using seems to give Moggy a lot more freedom of movement than the Seanchan ones. Normally, if the bracelet isn't being worn, the collared one can't move. But the Supergirls take it off *all the time*, and Moggy still goes about doing her chores, up to a mile away for all we know. What exactly was the range on it anyway?

You are not remembering it correctly.

When no one wears the a'dam bracelet the damane can still move freely within the range of the leash. It is only impossible for her to remove the bracelet from its current position.

Thus the range is not determined by the a'dam per se but just the length of the leash (read: it's no more than a physical property of the a'dam). Moggy's a'dam has no leash, so she is free to move even when no one wears the bracelet. Simply because it doesn't involve an attempt to move the bracelet herself.

If Moggy snuck up to the Supergirl in charge and snatched the bracelet from her pouch, she would only manage a couple of steps before she collapsed into a convulsing heap trying to barf up her intestines...
Shelbourn
71. birgit
Moggy has to be one of the women who arrived with the girls in Salidar, so they just have to look which of them has the symptoms of forkroot. Ny took some forkroot with her, she can dose Moggy again until El has finished the a'dam (if she hasn't already made it to find out if it really works without the connection).

the forkroot would have made Moggy not able to channel, so in effect her ability would be unmasked.

One can only channel Spirit while sleeping. If the disguise requires other elements, Moggy has to tie it off before sleeping.
Antoni Ivanov
72. tonka
69. Isilel
And of course she screws up things for him mightily with the 2 embassies and Semi.


And how does she screws up anything with the White Tower Embassy or the Salidar's , or with Semirhage - she even managed to aim a knife at Semirhage ??
Rich Gold
73. richg25
54. bchurch

streams - of course, you're correct - I was confused. I'm actually one book ahead in my own re-read - so I just finished COS and that was what was on my mind.
Tess Laird
74. thewindrose
I don't like the a'dam, but kodos to Elayne for making it Wi-Fi. She does have that creative side to her that enables her to make jumps like that. I mean, how long have the Seanchan been making the same ter'angreal with out any modifications?
With all the things Elayne and Nyn have been coming up with on their own, did they really need Moggy? I know becuase of the circumstances, they had to do what they did, but it would have been better if Birgitte could have just killed her off. I think turning her over to the SAS would have been a bad idea - women who like to sit around and have blame fests and do nothing.
I think where Suian at least got them from disbanding and going back to Elaida, the Suian-Egwene team actually gets them moving and doing.

I think the other Forsaken are doing what they are supposed to be doing - sowing chaos - admittedly while going about their own agenda. That stops when Moridan brings them the heel, and the DO has specific plans for each of them. But even though they pay lip service - they still do some things on their own. Look at Moggy. After she gets mindtrapped she goes outside of her orders and tries to balefire Nyn.
Shelbourn
75. El Fitcho
The start of this prologue is hands-down my favourite part of the whole series. When I first turned the page and saw the BLOCK CAPITALS I knew it was going to be the Dark One speaking, and I actually slammed the book shut in shock, as if the evil might somehow leak off the page!

On a related note, I have an interesting theory: Given that Moridin and Rand are in each others' heads, if Moridin were to go to Shayol Ghul, would the Dark One be able to speak to Rand via Moridin...?

What do you folks reckon?
Antoni Ivanov
76. tonka
@ 74.thewindrose

I think the Seanchan didn't take the leash off because they like to think they are in complete control , without the leash as we can see Moggy can go wherever she wishes but with the leash there is radius you can go before you collapse in agony.

@75.El Fitcho - haha that would be funny but I don't think Moridin is *that* much in Rand's head. So I don't think so.
Karen Walters
77. Wrenza
74. thewindrose

Didn't Moggy teach how to travel, fairly essential for Salidar AS.
James Jones
78. jamesedjones
77 Wrenza

Moggy actually kept that from them, until Egwene forced it out of her. But Egwene had made the connection from entering TAR, and already knew without Moggy.

74 theWindRose

WiFi adam! Love it!
Tess Laird
79. thewindrose
jamesedjones @78 - Yes, Egwene had figured out how to get to T'a'R. So when Moggy was presented to her, she made the next step in her head of how to Travel and looked at Moggy and said this is how it's done, right?! And the other's realized that Moggy had been keeping it back from them.
Alice Arneson
80. Wetlandernw
Actually Moggy claimed she couldn't show them. Egwene had a theory based on her experience with TAR and asked a few leading questions. Mog she let just enough slip in her answer that Egwene decided her theory was correct, and she made the weave. Just about scared the living daylights out of Mog. One of my favorite Egwene lines from the series: "Never assume I don't already know the answer."

edit: sorry, thewindrose had pretty much answered that while I was looking for the text. Can anyone tell me what site it is that lets you search text and read whole pages of the book?
Tess Laird
81. thewindrose
Tonka - I think it would be an advantage to not be pyhisically attached to the damane, yet still be able to control the damane.
j p
82. sps49
@71 birgit

Not quite- Spirit can be used anytime; but it is the only one of the 5 that can be used while asleep.
Shelbourn
83. Lsana
One thing that jumped out at me here: Suian can feel Moggy on her bracelet, but Setelle Anan couldn't do anything with the a'dam in WH. Not conclusive, but at least suggestive that perhaps Setelle can't be healed the way that Suian was.

I also owe Elayne an apology: she does know that she's needed in Caemlyn (and needed right now), she wants to go, and the Aes Sedai are preventing her. The Aes Sedai are being idiots by not sending her.

@59 Michelllee, 63 Alisonwonderland,

"Hate" is a strong word, but she's near the bottom of my list right next to Faile. I don't like her for precisely the reason that Alisonwonderland does: she's totally devoted to Rand and almost has no personality of her own. After her rescue of Suian and Leane (which was awesome, admittedly), she only does two things: simper after Rand and spoil the plot.
Greg Bloom
84. MuleHeadedLummox
About the only thing (that I can recall) that Moggy teaches that is really worthwhile (not counting stuff various AS pretend they don't know) is inverting weaves. Moggy probably had no choice but to reveal this if she wanted to have any hope that the girls would think she was being helpful, as they would have realized she must have had some way to keep her channeling secret.

On a related note, I find it interesting that there is considerable space in the Asmo death FAQ about how someone could have channeled to kill him and not been within range of detection by Rand/Avi. After all, if the killer was inverting their weaves (which any Forsaken who was trying to sneak around near Rand would almost certainly have been) that this is a completely moot point.

@58 There are two possibilities about how the DO knew about Rahvin and Asmo's deaths, even though he is not all knowing. First, he is the lord of the grave. It's possible that he knows anytime anyone is killed, or can watch for specific deaths, even if those happen in a manner in which he will not or cannot revive the individual. Second, he was linked to Rahvin, so it's likely that he was aware the moment he died. And we will later learn that Graendal, arguably the chief suspect in Asmo's death, visited SG before Demmy.
Antoni Ivanov
85. tonka
@ 81.thewindrose

No,no you think of damane as a human being capable of being responsible and making their own decision.
That's not how the Seanchan view Damane, they view them as dangerous beasts who must be kept close and under constant watch especially during "work" (e.i. using the power). Having a leash completely fits as how Seanchan view Damane.

@83.Lsana
The Aes Sedai are being idiots by not sending her.


I cannot agree that they are idiots. Try to put yourself in their position - without knowing what is the Dragon Reborn, without being in his thoughts, without ever met him. He is the most dangerous man born in 3000 years who have already , less than an year after he proclaim himself , more power than any man since Arthur Hawking. Think and try to put yourself in their position without the benefit of hindsight. And try to be honest with yourself and you'll see that their decision is very much logical.
Shelbourn
86. kab1
@40- thanks for asking that, I always wondered about hat same topic myself

@70- thanks for the answer- makes perfect sense!

@windrose- WiFi A'dam. that was great!

@72- I think Isilel meant that Min messed things up with Semi because Rand purposely stands still and takes the blow from Semi because he knows Min is behind him. If Min wasn't there, Rand would have dodged. But I think what happened to Rand, especially the part with his eyes, needed to happen as part of the events which must unfold before TG. In this light, if Min wasn't there, than it wouldn't have gone down as needed.

I do like Min, and I do think she has personality and importance. One of her roles in the books is to love Rand, so that's really the point from which she is written at. however, I think that aside from being swept up in the pattern and Rand's tavereness she would be a fun gal. I think she has quite a bit of spunk.


In terms of Min's role in loving Rand and giving him humanity, I agree. That's why I thought it was somewhat off when Cadsuanne and Sorelia team up to teach him how to laugh and love (at least that's what I think they're doing). I remember thinking- isn't that what Min does? But I guess Cads and Sorilea will get him to apply this to the world at large, whereas Min's role is personal and has gotten him this far.

Additionally, aside from being Rands gal (well, one of them!) she has a MAJOR role in these books in that she can see "things" about people. This has been useful to Rand and others several times and RJ has used her visions (as well as other plot devices) throughout to give us glimpses of the future. I've had fun seeing her visions come true and trying to figure out what some of them mean. I remember thinking this talent was pretty cool when first introduced and then when Min explains the burdens it has created for her, I felt for her character.
Tess Laird
87. thewindrose
Wetlandernw
I find Encyclopeadia WoT helpful to find passages that I 'kind of' remember and then can look at the book. The characters part will give you book and chapter, and the Book part will give a run down of the chapters in each book with whose PoV is happening.
TW L
88. Shadow_Jak
@83 Regarding Min
...After her rescue of Suian and Leane (which was awesome, admittedly), she only does two things: simper after Rand and spoil the plot.

Actually she does quite a bit more than simper.
**wink, wink, nudge, nudge**
TW L
89. Shadow_Jak
@84
About the only thing (that I can recall) that Moggy teaches that is really worthwhile (not counting stuff various AS pretend they don't know) is inverting weaves.

Also the weaves to disguise one's appearance
TW L
90. Shadow_Jak
From Leigh's Commentary...
thanks to a certain unnamed poster on Usenet lo these many years ago, I cannot read the Dark One’s speech to Demandred here without hearing it in the Governator’s voice: VOULD YOU RELEASE DE BALEFYUH IN MY SERVICE, DEMAHNDREHD?

LOL! Works for me!
john mullen
91. johntheirishmongol
Min is one of the few fun characters in the entires series. She has a lot of energy, and a little ball of fire. How anyone can say she is dull is beyond me.

On top of that, she has one of the cooler powers, even though it may be most frustrating bcause there isn't much she can do with it.
Tess Laird
92. thewindrose
tonka-
Totally not thinking of the damane thinking on their own. I was just thinking that the suldam would be safer if not physically attached to the damane. According to the book, the a'dam Elayne made is the same in every other way, so if they wanted to - they could use the leash a'dam to walk their 'pets', and the Wi-Fi a'dam during battle.
john massey
93. subwoofer
'K, it's a pity we're not on about chapter 1 as there is many POV's and jumping around as well that make it a pivotal chapter, but I will rant on that on Monday- Just that from the outset Bashere- in his total coolness role, says what I have been saying all along about Rand.

Sweating... who cares if they sweat like heathens or not, other than for spotting continuity gaffs I don't see how that effects the story one way or the other... Demandred looked slick under the pits from going to Shayol Ghul... meh, not feeling it, story can move on with or without the sweating. Just another way of saying that it is Africa hot all the time.

Keeping one of the Forsaken alive, Mo the other Stooge... gave it some thought, and I say gently nudge her off a high cliff. Bottom line, she's a baddy, not just any baddy, an uber baddy so the sooner she dies the better, unless at the time RJ was planning a grand girl fight between her and Ny at some later point. Then I'm getting out the popcorn and getting my front row ticket for this one.

As for the Dark One, maybe he isn't all that bad... I could see him in a white suit making small talk and being cordial. Sipping pina coladas...
Joseph Blaidd
94. SteelBlaidd
wildrose @92
Remember also that there are always more Damane than Sul'dam which means that the Sul'dam are more expendable.

I stand in the, "I like Min" camp. Rand needs some one whose loyalty is to him first as a guard against irrational paranoia, as opposed to the rational paranoia that keeps him alive ;)
Brett Michie
95. bchurch
SteelBlaidd @ 94

Does it say somewhere in the text that there are more Damane than Sul'dam? I can't remember for sure, but it does tickle my memory. You'd think that logically, the opposite would be true. In Seanchan, Damane are channelers born with the spark, whereas Sul'dam are those who can be taught (though they don't know this, or pretend not to know). By all accounts from AS, sparkers are rare in Randland compared to those who can be taught.

I also am one who likes Min. Of Rand's love interests, I like her best. Aviendha is pretty cool also, but I like Min more. Mistress Snoot has her moments, but she can get under my skin.
Sydo Zandstra
96. Fiddler
SteelBlaidd@94:

I seem to recall there were more sul'dam than damane. Before the Seanchan entered Randland, that is.

I think it was stated in tGH. It's been a while since I read that one though.

After KoD, sul'dam must be feeling like little kids set loose in a candy store. If prayers would be worth anything in Randland, Perrin would have joined the pantheon by now...



bchurch@95:
I also am one who likes Min. Of Rand's love interests, I like her best. Aviendha is pretty cool also, but I like Min more. Mistress Snoot has her moments, but she can get under my skin.

Same here.
Shelbourn
97. yarazin
Im sorry but I dont understand why you like Siuan. Nyneave gets on my nerves but I can generally tolerate her, but Siuan... she is just a super bi@#ch. I think she still doesnt understand/believe the power of Min. She lost the tower cause she is a idiot who just does what she wants and be damned about other opinions. Ohh I hate her.

Dont get me wrong, I hate Elaida too.. they are both fools in thier own way, but I think Siuan is crap.

Sorry, frustrated... I'm listening to the books at the same time the re-cap is going on and just listened to this part today and she annoys me, someone shoot her please.
Sydo Zandstra
98. Fiddler
I think Siuan believed in Min's powers. Her mistake was that she thought she could change events, even when Min told her that her visions were going to happen anyway.

She paid for that.

Like earlier posters I like Siuan as well. She's a strong woman, and seems to have a good brain working for her, which is rare in an Aes Sedai, barring Leane, Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane, Pevara and the 2 Red sisters that showed up in the last books (I forgot their names).
Antoni Ivanov
99. tonka
@98.Fiddler

Which red sisters do you mean ? Tsutama and Tarna , maybe ? Or maybe Sashalle is one your two? Or Silviana? These four seem to be the most reasonable from the red ajah IMO.
Sydo Zandstra
100. Fiddler
@Tonka:

Thanks for putting up names.

I meant Tsutama and Tarna.

Like most readers, probably, I hated the Red Ajah. Especially with Elaida's rise, although I don't hate Elaida as a character. I can see her POV, even if it is single minded and stupid.

But post-KOD, the Red Ajah is showing what it was started for in the first place: handle male channelers, in what way they can; if they agree on the fact that saidin really has been cleansed, expect them to surpass the Greens. RJ wrote that well.
Hugh Arai
101. HArai
tonka@85:

Think and try to put yourself in their position without the benefit of hindsight. And try to be honest with yourself and you'll see that their decision is very much logical.


Deciding not to send any of the channelers tied to the Aes Sedai who also have strong positive emotional ties to Rand and instead send an embassy composed of a bunch of women that ignore their 'leader', a 'skilled' negotiator that demonstrates no spine at all? Logical is not the word I would use...
Shelbourn
102. alreadymadwithredconvo
By KOD the Red Ajah is finally starting to show brains. And decency.

Harai @101
Given what they had to work with, I'd do the same thing SAS did. Send a negotiator, backed up by five others. As most AS at the time thought, most kings would consider themselves honored to receive an embassy of Aes Sedai numbering more than one. The one bound for Caemlyn had six. Yes, they could possibly send the strongest channelers with the strongest ties to Rand, but it would be illogical and highly dangerous. For one thing, they had no way of being sure that Rand was still sane enough to receive the embassy with open arms. For another, these same strongest channelers were barely half way to the training required of an Aes Sedai. Bear in mind that most rumors place Rand in Caemlyn at the same approximate time as Morgase's disappearance. That one of the Forsaken was in the city was rarely ever mentioned. At the very least people thought Rand had something to do with Morgase and if he could do that to Morgase, who's to say Elayne would be safer?
Sydo Zandstra
103. Fiddler
@ARM:

They couldn't send any channelers connected to Rand in the first place, because there weren't any to send. Accepted don't count.

So yes, I agree there.

Also, Salidar already sent their two hot shots, Bera and Kiruna, into the waste.
Maiane Bakroeva
104. Isilel
Re: Min messing things up.

She made Rand irrationally afraid of the SAS embassy (who certainly weren't in position to do anything drastic about him), missed crucial stuff happening with them like Demira's spearing, and caused Rand to jump haphazardly between Caemlyn and Cahirien leaving everything undone and appearing ever more irrational and unpredictable - all of which played directly into the hands of Elaida's kidnappers and damaged both Rand and the AS rebellion.

And she insisted on going along with Rand to his interview with Semi, although having another channeler along for what they were reasonably certain could be a trap would have been much safer. As a result Rand almost got fried.

Min had her knives ready? Well, the only way a knife could make a difference against Semi (or any decent channeler) would be with them unaware and from the back.

Now, considering the notion that it was all meant to happen and thus not Min's fault at all, the same argument could be also applied to Elaida or Fain and basically lead to complete absence of personal responsibility for anything in WOT.


Re: Siuan, she got deposed because:


Presence of the Dragon in the Pattern led to everything breaking down everywhere including the WT

The right way to deal with the DR went against millenia of WT law and tradition and most AS were not ready to accept that

Siuan was forced to back Moiraine's play and guard her back - and Moiraine is really hard on her superiors.

And let's not forget the friendly neighborhood Forsaken and the BAs - all focussed on making the WT ineffectual or even a tool of the Shadow


IMHO only a ta'veren could have escaped from such a situation with their skin whole.

But what makes me admire Siuan most is how much she accomplished after losing everything - she kept rebellion going, she got Egwene elected and most of Egs accomplishments are actually a result of cooperation between them.

And that despite Siuan being in many ways a traditional AS unlike a complete iconoclast like Moiraine or having largely escaped indoctrination in the first place like SGs. I.e. apart from everything else she has to fight her own prejudices and ingrained reflexes as well.
Shelbourn
105. MatFarshaw
101. HArai

"send an embassy composed of a bunch of women that ignore their 'leader', a 'skilled' negotiator that demonstrates no spine at all? Logical is not the word I would use..."

They didn´t ignore their leader, until Bera and Kiruna showed up and took over (being stronger in the one power).
James Jones
106. jamesedjones
95 bchurch & 96 Fiddler

I'm pretty sure he just wrote the first part incorrectly. The last part of that sentence, "which means that the Sul'dam are more expendable." reflects what you are both saying and what - I think - Steelblaid was trying to say.
James Jones
107. jamesedjones
104 Isilel

I'm not sure that it was Min's fault that Rand took off from Caemlyn. IMO it all started when Taim (once again, this is my opinion) sent the Ashaman disguised as Aiel to stab, but not kill, that brown sister. The Salidar Aes Sedai thought he was toying with their lives in order to achieve a greater power in the negotiations. We still don't know if that ever got cleared up.

But I'm pretty convinced that of course it didn't!
Antoni Ivanov
108. tonka
@ 104.Isilel

She made Rand irrationally afraid of the SAS embassy (who certainly weren't in position to do anything drastic about him), missed crucial stuff happening with them like Demira's spearing, and caused Rand to jump haphazardly between Caemlyn and Cahirien leaving everything undone and appearing ever more irrational and unpredictable - all of which played directly into the hands of Elaida's kidnappers and damaged both Rand and the AS rebellion.


Where did you come that ?
How did she make Rand irrationally afraid of the SAS embassy ? She didn't make anything besides telling all that's happening in the SAS camp.And 13 Aes Sedai with who knows what intention because Aes Sedai were not really sharing their intentions with Min especially when they understood that Min is telling everything to Rand.

How not being at the right time and the right place is her fault (missing Demira's spearing)

And Rand wasn't jumping between Caemlyn and Cahirien because of her. Where did this come for?
Neither did he leave Caemlyn because of her . She told him that 2 more Aes Sedai joined the group making their number 13, he decided on his own that it would be better to leave.


Min managed to stick a knife in Semi's arm. Who knows ? Maybe she saved some life distracting this way Semi. Ok I agree that Min shouldn't have insisted on coming. Or rather Rand shouldn't have allow her. But aside very few things she is doing very well.
Shelbourn
109. MatFarshaw
104. Isilel

"She made Rand irrationally afraid of the SAS embassy (who certainly weren't in position to do anything drastic about him)"

They could definitely have done bad stuff to Rand (being 7 to 1).

"missed crucial stuff happening with them like Demira's spearing"

The embassys fault for keeping it secret.

"and caused Rand to jump haphazardly between Caemlyn and Cahirien leaving everything undone and appearing ever more irrational and unpredictable"

That was Rand getting more and more nervous (rem: first the attack by Alanna and Verin, then the seven Aes Sedai suddenly breaking into the palace).
Antoni Ivanov
110. tonka
101. HArai

I asked you to place yourself at their place without the benefit of hindsight and you do the opposite.
If we knew the future of course we would be able to avoid all mistakes.
Joseph Blaidd
111. SteelBlaidd
Jej@106
Correct. I did mean number of Sul'dam > number of Damane. Posting around bedtime for an active kindergartner is hazardous.

Taking Min to the negotiations with Tuon makes a lot of sense. Rand gets to bring 6 Chanelers and one extra, Lan is gone and any one else would be just a sword and vastly outclassed if the meeting goes pear shaped. Min can at least provide information that is not otherwise obtainable during the after brief.
john massey
112. subwoofer
I dunno, for me I am still hung up on the polygamy thing. I would prefer if Rand settled for one of the three- call me old fashion. I suppose because Rand knocked up Elayne he should do the right thing- although I am not a fan of her.

Min- she has her moments, but there is to much knife flashing and hollow threats to make her actually effective as a partner for Rand. She is loyal and does have love for Rand but long term, I dunno.

Avi. Like her... Aiel, full of piss and vinegar, can channel, gives Rand lip on a regular basis, can make threats and back them up, has a strong relationship with Rand. They could form a red headband sect and Avi could be the Roofmistress of the the hold... er, if Rand makes it out alive from TG. Of the three, she is the best fit for him. IMHO.

edit- found this recommended for me on my Youtube channel.
Tess Laird
113. thewindrose
Wanted to clarify the number of Sisters the Salidar Aes Sedai originally sent - (Suian)
"Nine. 'Enough to do honor to the Dragon Reborn'-fish guts! an embassy to a king is seldom more than three!-'but not enough to frighten him.' If he's learned enough to be frightened."
Verin and Alanna are already in Caemlyn. After the Salidar embassy shows up and Demira gets knifed all nine of the SAS embassy confront Rand but of course don't explain why. The SAS Aes Sedai return to the inn and Bera and Kiruna are there to make 13 Sisters. Min rides up to the palace to warn Rand - who was just threatend not to trifle with Aes Sedai and Min also saw a brownish yellow and deep purple aura around Kiruna and Bera, so Rand high tails it out of there and gets hoodwinked by the Tower Aes Sedai. The Tower Aes Sedei have been slowly been increasing their numbers to over 13 Sisters.
Antoni Ivanov
114. tonka
@111.SteelBlaidd

Yes, actually come to think about that I agree with you. Her ability could have been a huge asset for Rand and co. That it wasn't necessary doesn't mean anything - they couldn't have known that. I guess these were part of the arguments that Min used to convince Rand to take her (although that happens "off screen")

@113 thewindrose

Just one thing - it's seven (7) , not all nine, that confront Rand. I don't why - probably they decided they want to threaten him but not too much.
Shelbourn
115. alreadymadwithsalidaras
Did Rand really feel threatened by 13 sisters? Rand ran not because thirteen could harm him personally but because the only way he could safely deal with thirteen was to bring the Asha'man into play. It was not a step he was ready to make and would most likely result in open conflict with Aes Sedai. Again something he wanted to avoid. That said, the Aes Sedai were extremely foolish in thinking they could push and prod Rand knowing he had Asha'man on standby. They learn their lesson at Dumai's Wells.

tonka @114
I was under the impression Min convincing Rand involved a lot of sexual favors. Or threatening a lack thereof.
Tess Laird
116. thewindrose
tonka - thanks for the correction. Another interesting fact is that Verin helps Demira and others to come up with this plan(there was no reason given for having it be 7 sisters though).

On to Min - Rand and Min 'comfort' each other for the first time in aCoT, so they are nothing more than friends in LoC.
Sydo Zandstra
117. Fiddler
ARM@115:

That said, the Aes Sedai were extremely foolish in thinking they could push and prod Rand knowing he had Asha'man on standby.

At that time, all AS (both SAS and TAS) had no idea about how big the Black Tower really was. They were thinking about 1 or 2 rogue male channelers.

And I don't think Rand was calculating on Asha'man to back him up there yet. As soon as he learned he could be up against 13 sisters in Caemlyn, he ran towards Cairhien.
Antoni Ivanov
118. tonka
@115.alreadymadwithsalidaras

I was under the impression Min convincing Rand involved a lot of sexual favors. Or threatening a lack thereof.


I really really doubt so. Rand is not as fickle as that. And he would never put her in danger for that.
It was never mentioned how she convinced him though.

Here is relevant quote (KOD CH.20)

"They're very precise. She will bring six
sul'dam and damane, but no other attendants." Alivia made a noise like an angry cat, and he blinked before going on. no doubt
uncertain of a freed damane, to say the least. "You can bring five people who can channel. She'll assume any man with you can. but
you can bring a woman who can't to make the honors even."
Min was suddenly at Rand's side, wrapping her arm around his.
"No," he said firmly. He was not about to take her into a possible trap.
"We'll talk about it," she murmured, the bond filling with stubborn resolve.
The most dire words a woman can say short of "I'm going to kill you," Rand thought. Suddenly he felt a chill.
...


That doesn't imply nothing sexual IMO. I think there are going to have one of these unpleasant talks sometimes women give men (that is in the WoT world, all talks in our world are pleasant *nod*)


@117.Fiddler

At that time, all AS (both SAS and TAS) had no idea about how big the Black Tower really was. They were thinking about 1 or 2 rogue male channelers.


No, they already know that there are at least 100 men who can channel in the Black Tower. And because people often doubt me unless I provide a quote (LOC CH.49) :

“Can nothing be done about Taim?” Rafela’s round face, normally mild and pleasant, was quite stern, and her usually sweet voice flat. “There are at least one hundred men who can channel—one hundred!—not twenty miles from where we sit.” Kairen nodded resolutely but did not speak.

“They must wait,” Kiruna said firmly. “Light and honor, I do not know how many sisters will be required to handle so many. Al’Thor is the important matter, and one we can handle. Demira?”
Sydo Zandstra
119. Fiddler
@Tonka. I stand corrected. Thanks for the quote too. I'd have believed you without it too ;-)

When thinking about it, it seems logical that they knew. AS may be dense, but the sisters we were discussing are in Caemlyn, after all.

My view was probably based on how TAS were looking at this. They are further away.
Shelbourn
120. kab1
@101 Harai- I could be wrong but I don't think most AS know of the connection between Elayne and Rand, so even if they wanted to send someone close to Rand I don't think they would think of Elayne. Nynaeve on the other hand they could have sent. but they were not going to send an accepted.

@104 Islel
"Now, considering the notion that it was all meant to happen and thus not Min's fault at all, the same argument could be also applied to Elaida or Fain and basically lead to complete absence of personal responsibility for anything in WOT."

I think your missing what I'm saying. I think that Rand's funky eyesight and/or his hand were part of the dragon prophecies, ones we may not be aware of, or analogous to whole "fisher king" thing. Rand may soon have a bandage over his eyes.
This would not be the same as Elaida taking over the WT or Fain running amok as those things are not (maybe) important for TG or part of the dragon prophecies. I do think the the eye part is a bit weird, since Mat is also predicted to lose an eye or at least "half the light of the world".

As far as the whole Min made him afraid of the SAS sisters thing. I would disagree. Rather, I think it was multiple events including Alanna bonding him coupled with all of Moraine's warnings. Certainly he would have been more open if Alanna hadn't bonded him, as he thought he was "safe" before she did that. It reminded him of how careful one must be around AS and solidified Moraine's warnings of "trust no AS, even Verin". I think we can shift some of the blame on Alanna and even Moraine. and of course the embassy themselves- I agree with 109- Blame the embassy for the whole Demira thing. Why couldn't they just be open about it? They could have asked Min about it and gotten her opinion. Using the mirror of illusions doesn't seem like good negotiations to me. how is their piss poor handling of the situation Min's fault?

I do totally agree with your assessment of Suian. She rocks! Although I wish she'd just admit her feelings for Gareth "bloody" Bryne. Fish guts.
but it's probably more fun to read her this way than to have them actually get together. However, at least one soft moment between them would be nice before TG. This actually reminds me of Min's importance again, since it's thanks to her that Suian knows she must stay close to Bryne.

How to you guys get stuff to appear in italics in your posts? please help!
Sydo Zandstra
121. Fiddler
@kab1:

We're using old HTML tags.

Italics:

Bold:

Put the text between those, and remove the spaces.. HTH.
Shelbourn
122. alreadymadwithcaemlynas
Fiddler @117
By this time the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn (Alanna to be precise) had already established Asha'man numbers to be in the hundreds. Rand could call them out if he really had to. Even if they weren't up to facing Aes Sedai in terms of the Power(which they already are), numbers alone were on their side. And they could always use their swords if all else failed. Rand's concern was more along the political and PR fallout a One Power confrontation between the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man would generate.

Tonka @118
Min, toying with the reins of her gray mare nearby, was feeling smug, and that irritated him. She had inveigled a promise from him in a weak moment and refused to release him. He could just break it. He should break it.

Speculation, I know, but it sounds like a bedroom scene to me.

kab1 @120
Use these tags quote here . Remove the spaces inside the brackets.
James Jones
123. jamesedjones
118 Tonka

"I think there are going to have one of these unpleasant talks sometimes women give men (that is in the WoT world, all talks in our world are pleasant *nod*)"

BwaaHaaHaaHaHaHaaa!
Maiane Bakroeva
124. Isilel
Well, re: Mins influence on Rand's interaction with the SAS embassy let's wait till the re-read reaches that point, shall we? It won't be all that long since we are already in LOC. Then we can discuss it in some detail.
It is still my impression that her panicking and misinterpretation of her own visions contributed a lot to Rand's fear of the SAS and underestimation of the TAS, though certainly Alanna's and Verin's actions didn't help. I am still at loss as to why Verin decided to stage the confrontation.

But Rand had no reason to fear even 13 AS as long as he allowed WOs to guard him (which they were happy to do) - however for some reason he had problems with that as well.

Re: meeting Semi, Min went _instead_ of a channeler, not as an "extra", so yea. And Rand absolutely got blasted because she was the only one there who couldn't have protected herself. While her visions may have provided some insight, with the strong likelihood of a trap her going immediately struck me as a very bad idea. YMMV.
Shelbourn
125. kab1
@ Isielel, sounds good. but I do agree with that Min probably contributed to the situation, I just didn't think she was completely to blame.

@121 and 122 thanks! you guys are so [i] savvy!
Antoni Ivanov
126. tonka
@124.Isilel
It is still my impression that her panicking and misinterpretation of her own visions contributed a lot to Rand's fear of the SAS


Min cannot misinterpret her visions, that's one of the greatest things about her visions. (unlike foretelling which might tell absolute truth but who knows what it means, or unlike dreaming which is only the possible future although here like in Min's talent if the dreamer knows what it means , that's going to be-no misinterpretation)

If Min tells "Alivia is going to help you die" it doesn't mean that Alivia is going to kill him or something else it means exactly as Min says it.
Antoni Ivanov
127. tonka
@124.Isilel

Re: meeting Semi, Min went _instead_ of a channeler, not as an "extra", so yea. And Rand absolutely got blasted because she was the only one there who couldn't have protected herself. While her visions may have provided some insight, with the strong likelihood of a trap her going immediately struck me as a very bad idea. YMMV.


Min did not go instead of a channeler. ( I cannot believe you thought that Nynaeve or Cadsuane would allow that , even if Rand did, or that Min would have wanted to go in some channeler's place)

Let's count them then :
Rand, Logain, Narishma, Donalo Sandomere, Cadsuane, Nynaeve - 6 channelers .

Let's see the quote
She will bring six
sul'dam and damane, but no other attendants

Where she is Tuon, supposedly, a non-channeler.

So here we have it 6 channelers(sul'dam and damane count as one for Seanchan) on both sides and one non-channeler to make the honors even. (you know Seanchan are very touchy about honor and such almost like Sea Folk. ugh)
Antoni Ivanov
128. tonka
@122.alreadymadwithcaemlynas
Tonka @118
Min, toying with the reins of her gray mare nearby, was feeling smug, and that irritated him. She had inveigled a promise from him in a weak moment and refused to release him. He could just break it. He should break it.

Speculation, I know, but it sounds like a bedroom scene to me.


I must have miss this. I never thought about this .It's quote possible you are right. It would have been kinda amusing. Unless it is in RJ's notes and get published we're never going to know.
Hugh Arai
129. HArai
Tonka@110: Not at all. In their position I would latch on to anyone who does know Rand, especially people that he likes and possibly trusts. I would include them in the embassy to pick their brains on how he would react to various items, and to show Rand people he knows are part of the group he's dealing with. You know, like the Wise Ones did. Also, putting myself in the position of an intelligent channeling person in a group of any kind, it occurred to me immediately that giving political leadership to the strongest channeler _because of their strength_ is stupid. That is in fact for me the least believable thing about AS period.


Kab1@120: Enough of the AS appear to know of the connection between Min and Rand, and it seems likely the same AS would know about Elayne. Even so, they should all know about Nynaeve and Egwene. And why not send an Accepted? I'm not saying send them by themselves, but as part of the embassy. Many people here are commenting on how big and scary Rand appears to them. It took Moiraine what, 5 min to realize how loyal to the TR folk Rand is. She deftly used that as part of her toolset to try to control him. It took Verin maybe 10, and then she did the same. Even if they don't know the SGs are basically the only AS he'd trust (and I agree they probably don't) what is so logical about not including the people Rand knows, to say "Look: these girls you know are part of our group. They agree with our goals. You get along with them, we can't be all bad right?"

Am I supposed to believe that Moiraine and Verin are the only AS capable of dealing with the situation when the subject doesn't immediately assume the AS are always right? Hell, even Elaida knew enough to grill the girls, including Min.
Brett Michie
130. bchurch
tonka @ 126

I agree that Min did not misinterpret her visions. She was honest with Rand from the get go about them. She told him that women who could channel were going to hurt him and that she could not be sure that it was not going to be the SAS who did it. When she saw the same aura around Bera and Kiruna, it freaked her out. It was that viewing, along side Asmodean's warning about the thirteen weakest women in the Tower being able to overwhelm him that caused him to flee to Cairhien.

As to Rand's underestimation of the TAS, I believe it came down to a simple matter of comparing and contrasting the differences in the two embassies behaviors towards him. The TAS, while they appeared to be trying to bribe him, had thus far been fairly respectful. The SAS had just tried to provoke him and then had their number increased to thirteen. Rand had no way of knowing why they tried to provoke him or that their increase in numbers was not intentional, just as he didn't know that the TAS numbered far more than thirteen.

I can see no reason to find Min culpable in this.
Pete Pratt
131. PeteP
It is really annoying for people to argue about Min's culpability in any of Rand's mishaps. She did not cause them.

Min is the most honest and least power hungry character in the books. She knew from Book 1 that she would fall in love with Rand and share him with two other women. And it took a long time for any of that to happen. She has been nothing but helpful to everyone around her. She is not an Aes Sedai (or a SG) deceiving everyone around her. She is just Min, which is a good thing.
Shelbourn
132. Valan
@ Pete P
Wouldn't agree thats its really annoying to read the arguments, debate is what this is mostly about. Or at least well-supported agreements. heh

Totally agree with your assessment of Min, she seems to be the only slightly normal person of the entire cast, even with her ability. I like her. (so much for well-supported)


This scene with Demandred at Shayol Ghul is one hell of a way to start a book. Love it. I still can't wait to find out what craziness he's been up to.
Tess Laird
133. thewindrose
alreadymadwithcaemlynas @122
Tonka @118
Min, toying with the reins of her gray mare nearby, was feeling smug, and that irritated him. She had inveigled a promise from him in a weak moment and refused to release him. He could just break it. He should break it.

Speculation, I know, but it sounds like a bedroom scene to me.


This is from KoD - Chapter 27 A Plain Wooden Box
Long after there has been established sexual relations between Rand and Min, they also have that 4 way bond going on.
Shelbourn
134. kab1
@HArin-
From what I can see, I think that Moraine, Verin and a few others (Cads in the future) are the only ones capable of coherent thoughts concerning Rand. I totally agree with your assessment of the situation and I think it would have made sense to send Elayne and /or Nyn. However, if they were capable of proceeding in a logical manner (from our all knowing viewpoint) then they would have simply asked him about Demira's attack. It's actions like these that make me feel most of them are, well,unreasonable for lack of a better word. But, it's important to remember that they seem very unsure of Rand.

I believe RJ writes them this way on purpose, their actions are based on their (sometimes shortsided) view of the world. and it can be incredibly frustrating to the reader at times, but incredibly fun as well. I realize how attached I am to this world when I find myself self talking back to the audiobooks!

As far as them knowing about Elayne/Rand I think the fact that they know about Min is why they don't suspect the same thing for Elayne. But they might be aware she and rand are friends. I'm sure once this quad love fest is public it will be quite the scandal. Nyneave's reaction in Camlyn was priceless.
Aidan Young
135. aidanyoung1102
I think the whole SAS and Rand confrontation was designed to "teach Rand a lesson." One of my favorite scenes in the entire series is that scene where they confront him in the palace. I know that they're thinking going into it, "this ought to show him" and then he's totally unimpressed.

One of the great ironies about the WT is that by the time we get to this point in the series all of these women who are the "best-trained" channelers in the world start to outed as the weakest and most ignorant. Think about it: SGs are more powerful and able. Wise ones and Seafolk know all kinds of things that AS don't, Damane capture them like nothing, and then the Ashaman and Rand take them out easily in every confrontation. I love it every time an AS finds out that she's got nothing because they are -almost to a woman- very arrogant and presumptuous about their power.

The reason Rand ends up getting trapped by the TAS has NOTHING to do with AS channeling ability but rather a very well-laid plan.
Roger Powell
136. forkroot
kab1@143
I'm sure once this quad love fest is public it will be quite the scandal. Nyneave's reaction in Camlyn was priceless.
For my money, Lan's was even better. First time we ever see him seriously rattled.
craig thrift
137. gagecreedlives
I wonder how Tam is gonna react when he finds out he has 3 daughters in law. And when he finds out not only is he gonna be a grandfather but he is going to be the grandfather to the heir of one the most powerful nations in Randland.
Vincent Lane
138. Aegnor
I'm behind on the comments, but I just thought of something while reading the comments on Moggy's collar and bracelet. I had never thought of it before...

Moggy to some random servant in Salidar: "Hey can you help me, I can't get this blasted neclace off. The clasp is right here..."

Servant: "Um...ok. Sure." *click*

Moggy: "Thanks! You have no idea how annoying this collar is. Now excuse me while I go kill..I mean talk to Nynaeve."

Wonder why she never tried that.
Antoni Ivanov
139. tonka
@129.HArai

Oh but HArai the Salidar Aes Sedai grilled the girls about Rand, they learned a lot about him from Nynaeve ,mainly. They just didn't want to sent 20/26 year old Accepted to do the work that Aes Sedai of more than a 100 should be able to do.
I like to think that Siuan might have done as you say but the rest of the Aes Sedai- they would never send an Accepted on such danger, especially one as important as Elayne. They sent Min though so it is not like that they decided not to do like you .They just din't risk the more important in their view(thank god no Aes Sedai knew about Min's ability- Siuan and Leane are not AS at this point)
john massey
140. subwoofer
In keeping with my current theme of making comments not related to what others are discussing( my last 2 posts on this thread)... that will get glossed over but everyone will mention in their own words at a later thread and hailed as a stroke of genius...

I found Pedron Niall's POV very interesting.I know that there is no love for him here, but he is one of the five living great captains so anything he says bares paying attention to, especially in terms of tactics and strategy.

The world was full of fools who could not think. The Last Battle would not be some titanic struggle between the Dark One and a Dragon Reborn, a mere man. The Creator had abandoned mankind to its own devices long ago. No, when TG came, it would be as in the Trolloc Wars two thousand years ago and more, when hordes of Trollocs and other Shadowspawn poured out of the Great Blight, tore through the Borderlands and nearly drowned humanity in a sea of blood. He did not mean to let mankind face that divided and unprepared...

More than a thousand years ago, Guaire Amalasan had named himself the Dragon Reborn, a false Dragon who could channel. Amalasan had conquered more land than al'Thor now held, before a young king named Artur Paendrag Tanreall tooke the field against him and began his own climb to empire. Niall did not consider himself another Artur Hawkwing, but he was what the world had. He would not give up while he lived.


Found this fascinating on two levels.

The first being that this is what Rand is trying to do, just in a different way than Niall. So this gives credit to Rand's plan to face the Shadow with nations united.

The second is that maybe after Niall dies, he leaves some notes or a journal behind and Galad finds it and appreciates the ideas therein- he's done that before- and goes out nation building himself.

Just sayin'.

Woof.
craig thrift
141. gagecreedlives
Looks like Im jumping on the unrelated posts bandwagon,

"More than a thousand years ago, Guaire Amalasan had named himself the Dragon Reborn, a false Dragon who could channel. Amalasan had conquered more land than al'Thor now held, before a young king named Artur Paendrag Tanreall tooke the field against him and began his own climb to empire."

That could explain Hawkwings comment back in tGH about facing LTT. Maybe Guaire Amalasan was the dragon reborn. Just reborn at the wrong time but was needed to set up the events that would lead to Hawkwings rise in power.

Somebody else might of thrown that idea out there back when it was relevant but its just an idle pre bed thought I'd throw out there.
Tess Laird
142. thewindrose
subwoofer - interesting vid @112 Was it made just for fun, or is it promoting something?

Pedron Niall -one of the 5 great general of Randland. Had a very interesting advisor for awhile, Ordeith. And starting with his time being advised by Ordeith/Fain started to think the way you have brought up. *Megalomania* Another one who thinks much the same way now is Elaida, after her time with Fain.
Pete Pratt
143. PeteP
gagecreedlives @ 141

I have always wondered whether some of those old time false Dragons were not also the real Dragon spun out to address a different issue or problem, not the opening of the Bore. Except Rand would have some memories of these other guys, too.

Oh, well, nice idea though.
john massey
144. subwoofer
I am thinking that Guiare was the DR at that time for that Age. There have been other rebirths etc. The Pattern/Wheel has spun out LTT several times before. Demandred mentions that he and LTT have fought thousands of times over the eons so...

@ thewindrose- excellent point about megalomania linked with Fain. Reminds me of LotR and Worm Tongue. I can also see Aragorn/Lan at the end of this one saying "For Frodo... er For Rand".
Jason Lyman
145. jlyman
@51. SteelBlaidd

I see you didn't have to go far then :)
Shelbourn
146. twicemarked
gagecreedlives@141

If that theory is right, why didn't Hawkwings address Rand as Guaire Amalasan instead of LTT? RJ said that Heros of the Horn refer to each other by their name in their previous incarnation.

Also, when Ishamael talked to Rand, he would have said WT "used you as a false Dragon the last time", instead of "used Guaire Amalasan as a false dragon". That would be much more persuadsive WT is bad for Rand.
Tess Laird
147. thewindrose
Subwoofer - I almost wrote Grima Wormtongue!

Speaking of spinning out - we know the Heroes of the Horn do this, is there a dark side 'Baddies' section as well. I know that Ishamael has stated the he and the 'Dragon' have fought against each other since time unknown. Of course he also said they fought on the same team - and RJ said 'you beleive Ishamael'?
Maybe for the bad guys, they just get reborn, don't remember their past life(s) and just inherently turn bad.
John Fitzingo
148. Xandar01
@34. SteelBlaidd

This is what happened the first time Leigh, linked to that tropes site. Help!
Greg Hollingsworth
149. artifex
I just caught up on reading all of these posts. I must say that it has been enjoyable; thanks Leigh!
john massey
150. subwoofer
Am thinking that all Dragons would be referred to as LTT as he was OG er D.

@thewindrose- Yes I do agree, though in following the analogy of the Wheel, it seems that these things would re-occur.
Shelbourn
151. dchambers59
thewindrose @ 74

I don't like the a'dam, but kodos to Elayne for making it Wi-Fi. She does have that creative side to her that enables her to make jumps like that. I mean, how long have the Seanchan been making the same ter'angreal with out any modifications?


This just occurred to me - if the a'dam is a ter'angreal, and the Seanchan have been making them, well, forever, then how can anyone say that no one has been able to make a ter'angreal since the AOL?
Tess Laird
152. thewindrose
dchambers59 @151
This thought is held by the White Tower, and as we know, the White Tower is often wrong in it's beliefs, or at least misguided in thinking they know it all!
Shelbourn
153. dchamber59
thewindrose@152

Yes, I realize that. I probably should have specified Elayne above, because she recognizes that the Seanchan are making these, yet becomes very, very excited about being the first person in forever to make ter'agreal. Just struck me funny, that's all.
Shelbourn
154. EmilyD
mark-p @ 17
I find shopping at Walmart to be EVIL, so it makes sense that Trollocs would shop there. (I see some scary people at my local Walmart when I can steel myself enough to go inside)
William McDaniel
155. willmcd
I had not noticed before this reading that Moghedien makes an attempt to get Nynaeve to consider turning to the Dark Side:
"You bite at one another like rats in a sealed box," Marigan said. "On the evidence, your chances are not very good. Perhaps you should consider . . . other options."
Nynaeve then bites her head off for suggesting it. It's doubtful this was anything more than a ploy to start down a road toward getting released, but Moghedien's assessment of the Salidar AS is correct: they are far too much at odds with each other to be an effective force for the Light.

Fortunately, Egwene will change that. I haven't liked her much to this point in the series, and frankly still don't much care for her as a personal character even after having read AMoL, but she does turn the focus of this particular group from politcking/bickering to action.
William McDaniel
156. willmcd
I also just noted that the children's rhyme about the Lord of Chaos at the beginning of the book comes from "Great Aravalon"; a future version of Tar Valon, perhaps?

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