Jul 13 2009 6:07pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Fires of Heaven, Part 20

Whoo, Monday, whoo, Wheel of Time, whoo Re-read. Whoo. Yee-haw.

I’m enthused. No really, I am. Whoo. Chapters 47-48 of The Fires of Heaven, whoo.

Previous entries, whee. Spoilers for this and all other previously published novels in the Wheel of Time series, booyah. Yippee-ki-yay, uh-huh.

Enthusiasm! I has it. Rah, rah, sis boom bah.

Oh, and the podcast went well, I think. Only time will tell if I made a complete fool of myself or not, but I had fun. The good part is, if I did, make a fool of myself I mean, the whole Internets will find out at the same time I do. Whoo? Whoo!

Anyways, I’ll be sure and let y’all know when it’s up and ready for your edification and delectation. Yippee-skippy!

And, yeah. Post? Post!

Chapter 47: The Price of a Ship

What Happens
Nynaeve dresses for the day and thinks about her nightmares, which she attributes to stress from the past three days of waiting, though she doesn’t understand why Egwene had been in nearly every one of them, “yammering” at her. She trades barbs with Elayne about her breeches, and Elayne glares and comments that she dreamed about Egwene last night, who said that Nynaeve was turning into a screaming harridan, but Elayne would say a fishmonger, herself. Nynaeve starts to snap back, but then stops.

With an effort she forced her voice to be level. “You dreamed about Egwene?” Elayne nodded curtly. “And she talked of Rand and Cairhien?” The younger woman rolled her eyes in exaggerated exasperation and went on with her, braid. Nynaeve made her hand loose its fistful of brassy red hair, made herself stop thinking of teaching the Daughter-Heir of bloody Andor some simple common courtesy. If they did not find a ship soon...

Nynaeve continues that she dreamed of Egwene too, who told her that Rand had won a great victory at Cairhien. They discuss her news, with many acid asides to each other, and Elayne opines that they should use the ring again. Nynaeve says no, but Elayne points out that if they could learn how to do this talking in your own dreams thing, they wouldn’t have to worry about meeting Moghedien in the Dreamworld. Nynaeve says dryly that she doubts it’s quite that easy to learn, but admits to herself she can see the value of it. Elayne wonders, though, why Egwene had been so insistent that they not tell anyone, and worries about the fact that the last time, Egwene had vanished in mid-sentence, looking frightened. Nynaeve is still against the idea, but the notion that Egwene might be danger gives her pause.

Sometimes it seemed to Nynaeve that she had forgotten why she had left the Two Rivers in the first place. To protect young people from her village who had been caught in Aes Sedai webs [...] Somehow, though, protecting Rand and Egwene and Mat and Perrin from Aes Sedai had become helping them survive, and finally, without her quite realizing when or how, even that goal had been submerged in other needs. Entering the White Tower to learn how better to pull down Moiraine had become a burning desire to learn how to Heal. Even her hatred for Aes Sedai meddling in people’s lives now coexisted with her desire to become one. Not that she really wanted to, but it was the only way to learn what she wanted to learn. Everything had become as tangled as one of those Aes Sedai webs, herself included, and she did not know how to escape.

Nynaeve announces that she will use the ring that night; Elayne watches her silently, and Nynaeve interprets this as skepticism, and admits to herself that she’d had a brief thought about only pretending to go, and hurries to finish and get away from the other woman. Birgitte bursts in, and laughs at Nynaeve, who’d thought it was Luca and was trying to cover up, and advises her to “breathe deeply”, demonstrating in her own dress. Nynaeve accuses her of being easy, and Birgitte accuses her of being an ice queen, and Elayne jumps in between them before it comes to blows.

“Both of you stop it this minute,” she said, eyeing them in turn with equal haughtiness. “Lini always said ‘Waiting turns men into bears in a barn, and women into cats in a sack,’ but you will stop clawing at one another right now! I will not put up with it any longer!”

Birgitte blushes and apologizes – to Elayne, not Nynaeve – but Nynaeve just glares, thinking Elayne certainly had no room to talk. Birgitte tells them that Juilin and Thom are back from town, and both Elayne and Nynaeve are incensed to learn they’d gone in the first place. The three women go outside to find Juilin and Thom nursing injuries, and Elayne gasps and runs to Thom, exclaiming over his wounds. He tries to fend her off while Nynaeve demands to know what they were thinking, going into town and almost getting killed when finding a ship has already been taken care of. Juilin tells her Samara is “a school of silverpike around a chunk of bloody meat”, with mobs roaming everywhere. Birgitte observes that there are a couple of fires starting, and Juilin says it’ll be more than that soon, and it’s time to go; they won’t stand out enough for Moghedien to notice, with people running in every direction, and anyway it won’t matter if they end up torn to pieces by a mob. Nynaeve tells him sharply not to use that name, and thinks the problem is he was right. She’s not ready to admit that, though, and says she will consider it; she would hate to find out a ship showed up after they left. The men look at her like she’s crazy, but then she spies Uno approaching and brightens, saying perhaps it’s arrived already.

As usual [Uno] grinned at Birgitte as soon as he saw her, and rolled his lone eye in an ostentatious stare at her exposed bosom, and as usual she grinned back and eyed him up and down lazily. For once, though, Nynaeve did not care how reprehensibly they behaved. “Is there a ship?”

Uno’s grin faded. “There’s a bloo— a ship,” he said grimly, “if I can get you to it whole.”

Nynaeve replies that surely fifteen Shienarans can get them through, and Uno tells her (choking off obscenities – Nynaeve had found it necessary to forbid swearing entirely when he wouldn’t hold to the “every other sentence” rule) that Masema’s people are fighting Whitecloaks, and he’s ordered his people to “take Amadicia with fire and sword”. Nynaeve returns that that changes nothing; Elayne puts in regally that she had heard many stories of the bravery of Shienar’s soldiers, and Birgitte steps up and massages the back of his neck.

“Three thousand years guarding the Blight,” she said gently. Gently. It had been two days since she had spoken to Nynaeve like that! “Three thousand years, and never a step back not paid for ten times over in blood. This may not be Enkara, or the Soralle Step, but I know what you will do.”

Uno growls, and asks Thom and Juilin if they can’t talk to them; Thom laughs and asks when a woman has ever listened to sense when she doesn’t want to, and grunts when Elayne begins cleaning his scalp wound with perhaps more force than necessary. Uno shakes his head, and explains that Masema’s people found the boat, but then Whitecloaks seized it, and that’s what started this whole business; Masema’s probably forgotten all about the boat by now, but his people didn’t get the message, and there’s fighting at the docks. And he has no idea how he’s supposed to get them on a boat still in Whitecloak hands. Nynaeve is stunned, and thinks it had to be a coincidence, but then Galad appears, dressed in ordinary clothes instead of a Whitecloak uniform. The female circus performers in eyeshot all react to the sight of his face. Nynaeve demands to know why he seized the boat as soon as he comes up to them, and Galad gives her an incredulous look and replies she asked him to secure passage, didn’t she?

“I didn’t ask you to start a riot!”

“A riot?” Elayne put in. “A war. An invasion. All begun over this vessel.”

Galad answered calmly. “I gave Nynaeve my word, sister. My first duty is to see you safely on your way to Caemlyn. And Nynaeve, of course. The Children would have had to fight this Prophet soon or late.”

“Couldn’t you simply have let us know the ship was here?” Nynaeve asked wearily. Men and their word. It was all very admirable, sometimes, but she should have listened when Elayne said he did what he saw as right no matter who was hurt.

Galad replies that he didn’t know what the Prophet wanted the ship for, but he doubts it was to give them passage downriver. Nynaeve flinches, and he goes on that he doesn’t understand what the problem is; they asked for a ship and he got them one. Thom remarks dryly that the price has been paid for it, so they might as well take it, and Nynaeve flinches again. Galad understates that there might be trouble reaching the river, and asks Uno if his friend is still about. Uno smiles back evilly and allows as to how there might be one or two more, and they’ll see whether the Whitecloaks hang on to this ship or not.

Elayne opened her mouth, but Nynaeve spoke up quickly. “That’s enough, both of you!” Elayne would just have tried honeyed words again. They might have worked, but she wanted to lash out. At something, anything. “We need to move quickly.” She should have considered, when she flung two madmen at the same target, what might happen if they both hit at once.

Luca hurries back into camp, sporting some bruises of his own, and begins bellowing for everyone to pack up and get ready to leave; anything not ready to go in an hour gets left behind, unless they want to find themselves conscripted into marching on Amadicia for the Prophet. The camp explodes into activity, and Luca comes up to Nynaeve and tells her he wants to talk to her alone. She tries to tell him they are not going with him, but he grabs her arm and pulls her away from the others; Nynaeve is annoyed that none of her companions seem to have a problem with this. She jerks her arm free and says she supposes this is about the money, and he will have his hundred gold marks. Luca replies angrily that he is not interested in the gold. Nynaeve crosses her arms and immediately wishes she hadn’t, but surprisingly Luca doesn’t take his eyes from her face. Nynaeve wonders if he’s ill, and asks what this is about, then. Luca says he’s been thinking about how she was going to leave, and he doesn’t know what she’s running from, or whether any of their story is true, but he wants her to stay; there’s a whole world out there, and whoever’s looking for her will never find her with him. Nynaeve doesn’t understand, and asks why she should stay when they have intended to reach Ghealdan from the beginning.

“Why? Why, to have my children, of course.” He took one of her hands in both of his. “Nana, your eyes drink my soul, your lips inflame my heart, your shoulders make my pulse race, your —”

She cut in hurriedly. “You want to marry me?” she said incredulously.

“Marry?” He blinked. “Well... uh... yes. Yes, of course.” His voice picked up strength again, and he pressed her fingers to his lips. “We will be wed at the first town where I can arrange it. I’ve never asked another woman to marry me.”

“I can quite believe it,” she said faintly.

She pulls her hand free and tells him she appreciates it, but she is betrothed to another; Luca says he should bundle her off and make her forget the fellow, and she replies he’ll be sorry if he tries it. This doesn’t seem to put him off, and she tells him he doesn’t know anything about her or her enemies, and he should be glad he doesn’t; she is going, so he may as well stop blathering.

Luca sighed heavily. “You are the only woman for me, Nana. Let other men choose boring flutterers with their shy sighs. A man would know he had to walk through fire and tame a lioness with his bare hands every time he approached you. Every day an adventure, and every night...” His smile almost earned him boxed ears. “I will find you again, Nana, and you will choose me. I know it in here.” Thumping his chest dramatically, he gave his cape an even more pretentious swirl. “And you know it, too, my dearest Nana. In your fair heart, you do.”

Nynaeve did not know whether to shake her head or gape. Men were mad. All of them.

Elayne stalks through the bedlam of camp, muttering to herself about Nynaeve’s comments about her breeches, and her refusal to believe Elayne about Galad and what it had wrought. Birgitte asks if she said something, and Elayne stops and asks Birgitte what she thinks of how Elayne is dressed.

“It allows freedom of movement,” the other woman said judiciously. Elayne nodded. “Of course, it’s good that your bottom isn’t too big, as tight as those —”

Striding on furiously, Elayne tugged the coat down with sharp yanks. Nynaeve’s tongue had nothing on Birgitte’s. She really should have required some oath of obedience, or at least some show of proper respect.

Elayne finds Cerandin and tells her they must speak, but Cerandin is concerned with getting the s’redit ready to leave and impatiently asks what she wants. Elayne tells her they are leaving, and Cerandin is coming with them. Cerandin doesn’t think a riverboat can carry s’redit, and Elayne tells her they will have to be left behind; they will need Cerandin’s information on her people where they are going. Cerandin shakes her head and says no, and Elayne tells the woman her true name and rank, expecting Cerandin’s upbringing would guarantee her obedience. Cerandin tells her she believed Elayne’s claim to be a lady at first, but now... She eyes Elayne’s breeches, and Elayne is astounded. She tries to grab Cerandin’s arm, and Cerandin puts her in an armlock. Birgitte doesn’t do a thing, and Elayne demands that Cerandin release her. Finally she does, and tells her she will always be a friend, and maybe one day she will rise high enough to be a lord’s asa one day, and bids her farewell. She walks off, and Elayne growls at Birgitte that she was a fat lot of help; isn’t she supposed to be Elayne’s Warder?

“I will defend you when you are in danger, but if the danger is only of being turned over someone’s knee because you’ve behaved like a spoiled child, I will have to decide whether it’s better to let you learn a lesson that might save you the same or worse another time. Telling her you were heir to a throne! Really! If you are going to be Aes Sedai, you had better start practicing how to bend the truth, not break it into shards.”

Elayne gapes at her, and stutters, but she is! Birgitte rolls her eyes at the breeches and replies, if Elayne says so. Elayne throws her head back and screams her frustration, silencing the camp for a moment. Birgitte asks if she needs a wet nurse, and Elayne snarls and marches off.

So there’s a little old lady out there somewhere whose poor heart may never be the same, because she happened to be sitting next to me on the subway when I got to Luca’s “marriage proposal”. HAHAHAHAHA!

*wipes tears* Oh, the funny. The line about having his children...! Holy crap. I don’t know whether to be sorry for Luca or slap him upside the head. Maybe both. The best thing about it, of course, is how completely clueless Nynaeve is. Too hilarious.

It’s a good enjoyment to have, since otherwise this is a chapter about pissy people behaving pissily. It’s understandable, but otherwise pretty annoying to read about, really.

It cannot be denied that Nynaeve screwed up here, but she does have a point that no one else considered that Galad and Masema might end up in conflict over the same ship, either. Perhaps it is a poor defense, but I remember that it certainly hadn’t occurred to me, the first time through. It seems to me to be a logical – if regrettable – kind of mistake to make. Whether my status as a Nynaeve fan is influencing my view here is an exercise left to the reader.

Elayne: on the one hand, I laughed at her scream, because no one believing you when you are telling the truth is annoying beyond belief, but on the other, good Lord. How could she possibly have thought Cerandin would just abandon her elephants? I’ve known people who work with animals, so I have a pretty good grasp of how they regard them, and true, Elayne may not have, but even so, jeez. I could see that reaction coming a mile away.

On the other other hand, I thought it was awfully sexist that everyone, even Birgitte, was judging Elayne just because she was wearing breeches. I thought it was especially stupid coming from Birgitte, considering trousers are her normal attire. Baggy trousers, yeah, but still. I know that the values are different, etc., and the whole thing was supposed to be played for comedy, but I have to admit I had some trouble with it, especially since I really don’t recall that Min got that much flak for wearing men’s clothes. The whole thing struck me as really... catty. If the girl wants to wear pants, she can wear pants! Sheesh.

Galad: See? Elayne was right! She really is, you guys. You can still not like her for whatever reason, but she is not delusional about Galad. The guy started a freakin’ war to get a boat. Hello! You can nitpick whether that was Nynaeve’s fault, but let’s not deny Galad’s culpability, hm? I’m just saying.

Chapter 48: Leavetakings

What Happens
In the wagon, Nynaeve changes into a wool dress and packs the things she wants to take, leaving the a’dam and the silver arrow.

For a moment she frowned at the arrow, contemplating Moghedien. It was best to do whatever was necessary to avoid her. It was. I bested her once! And had been hung up like a sausage in the kitchen the second time. If not for Birgitte... She made her own choice. The woman had said so, and it was true. I could defeat her again. I could. But if I failed... If she failed...

Bracing herself, she takes out the seal, telling herself she only imagines that it reeks of evil, and wraps it securely to take as well. Elayne enters and begins packing; her silence speaks volumes when she sees that Nynaeve has taken the ring and left her the other two ter’angreal that allow entrance to the Dreamworld. She packs the a’dam too, meeting Nynaeve’s sniff with a chilly stare. Outside, the men and Birgitte are waiting impatiently, which Nynaeve doesn’t think is very fair, considering they had nothing to pack. Birgitte is dressed almost as she was in Tel’aran’rhiod, courtesy of Clarine, who comes by to bid them farewell along with most of the other performers except Cerandin, who Nynaeve is just as glad not to see. Luca shows up last, and gives Nynaeve a bunch of limp wildflowers along with undying protestations of his love and assurances that he will find her again. Nynaeve gets redder and redder, and doesn’t dare look at either Elayne or Birgitte. Finally Luca flourishes himself away, and once they are outside the camp Nynaeve hurls the flowers down in a fury, making Ragan and the other Shienarans stare.

Lan had never given her flowers. Not that that was of any account. He had expressed his feelings in words deeper and more heartfelt than Valan Luca could ever manage. She had meant every word to Luca, but if Lan said he was going to carry you off, threats would never stop him; channeling would not stop him unless you managed it before he turned your brain and your knees to jelly with kisses. Still, flowers would have been nice. Nicer than another explanation of why their love could never be, certainly. Men and their word! Men and their honor! Wedded to death, was he? Him and his personal war with the Shadow! He was going to live, he was going to wed her, and if he thought differently on either point, she intended to set him straight. There was only the small matter of his bond to Moiraine to deal with. She could have screamed in frustration.

The others catch up with her, and Elayne sniffs while Birgitte mutters audibly; Nynaeve ignores them both. The men and Birgitte spread out to flank them, and Nynaeve thinks they are being a little ridiculous until they reach Samara, and then wishes they had a hundred more men. It is deserted where they enter, but the wrecked houses are littered with corpses, and Nynaeve can hear the roar of the mob in the distance as they search for more victims. Then suddenly they come upon them, and the mob sees their group and attacks. Nynaeve is angry enough to embrace saidar, and sees Elayne has done the same, but they dare do nothing unless there was no other choice. Birgitte’s arrow takes the lead attacker in the eye, and then the mob hits the Shienarans, whose line does not break; Juilin is cracking skulls in that line, too, and Thom is darting in and out from behind them with his knives, while Birgitte’s every arrow finds an eye.

Yet if they held the mob, it was Galad who broke them. He faced their charge as though awaiting the next dance at a ball, arms folded and unconcerned, not even bothering to bare his blade until they were almost on top of him. Then he did dance, all his grace turned in an instant to fluid death.

Their attackers soon break and run, and Nynaeve shivers. She thanks the men, sincerely, and when Birgitte nods as well in acknowledgement, makes herself tell Birgitte that she shot very well. Birgitte grins, knowing how hard that was for her to say. Most of the men except Galad are wounded, but all insist their injuries are not serious. They hear the mob again as they continue on, but word must have gotten around, for they are not molested again until they reach the docks, where they are confronted by two dozen Whitecloaks. Galad speaks to them, and the Whitecloaks doubtfully let them through to where the Riverserpent is moored, with a small crowd of women, children and older men clustered hopefully nearby; Nynaeve’s heart goes out to them. Galad hustles her and Elayne onto the boat, where Neres, the captain, demands extra for the “other wench” and the men. Nynaeve tells him he’ll be taking other passengers as well, nodding toward the refugees; Neres is about to refuse, when he catches sight of Thom, Juilin and Uno staring at him blandly while covered in blood, and gives in with ill grace. Nynaeve sniffs and goes over to where Galad is speaking to Elayne; he apologizes to her that he could only afford to pay their passage to Boannda, so they will have to make their own way to Caemlyn from there. Elayne comments that he’s done quite enough, watching the plumes of smoke above Samara, and he replies wearily that he promised.

Nynaeve managed to offer her thanks, which he dismissed graciously, but with a look as if she, too, did not understand. And she was more than ready to admit as much. He started a war to keep a promise — Elayne was right about that; it would be a war, if it was not already — yet, with his men holding Neres’ ship, he would not demand a better price. It was Neres’ ship, and Neres could charge as he chose. As long as he took Elayne and Nynaeve. It was true: Galad never counted the cost of doing right, not to himself or anyone else.

Galad pauses at the gangplank, and warns them to stay clear of Rand al’Thor; he brings destruction, and will break the world again before he’s done. He leaves, and Nynaeve thinks surely he couldn’t have guessed they have no intention of going to Caemlyn. She and Elayne share a wondering look until they remember they are not speaking, and look away again hastily.

Well, we are finally away from the circus, so hooray for that, but everyone’s still being pissy, and wow that’s getting old. It’s funny; a lot of people have historically complained about the circus section, but I didn’t get annoyed with it until here, right as they are about to leave anyway. Is that irony?

Speaking of annoying, isn’t it annoying when people are annoying, yet badass at the same time? This is how I feel about Galad. Of course, I suspect this is how I’m supposed to feel about Galad, so there’s that.

I really really really hope he and Rand meet up at some point in the last three books, and I really really really hope that someone clues him in to the fact that he and Rand are half-brothers, because damn I want to see that reaction. (Rand already knows, or at least knows enough to be able to make the connection, though I’m also going to take a moment to feel annoyed that we’ve never gotten Rand’s thoughts on the situation either.) I really want to see this, you guys. This is right up there with my wishes for a Rand/Tam reunion. Please, Santa, I have been so good!

Luca: heh. Still funny. The bedraggled wildflowers were a nice touch, but more touching was Nynaeve’s thoughts about Lan, because man I can see how that would make you want to bite things. We know how it all comes out now, of course, but I remember at the time I was like, damn, girl, that bites.

The commenters were talking recently about a problem that’s been brought up often with regard to Nynaeve and Lan, and Moiraine/Thom and Rand/Min for that matter, which is the knowledge that the channeler half of these various relationships is going to outlive the non-channeler half by about three or even four times as many years, which kind of totally sucks. And I agree, but I’m not necessarily sure that that’s grounds for calling the whole thing off. Sure, the channelers could live for 600 years or however long, but they could also get hit by a bus tomorrow, or (perhaps slightly more likely) get killed in the Big Ass Showdown we’re all hoping to see Real Soon Now.

Nothing is guaranteed. Even if you only get to have your love for ten years, or one, or two weeks, ‘tis better to have loved and lost than to blah blah blah, right? Otherwise you get what most of the Aes Sedai of current times do, which is to lock yourself up in your long-lived ivory tower (literally) and get completely cut off from life-type things to put it all in perspective. Either side has legit arguments, but me, I’m gonna say take what happiness you can, and pay for it when you have to. The alternative is to have safe, boring non-happiness for forever and ever. Which, yeah, no. Call me crazy.

Hey, quit calling me crazy! Well, fine! Screw you guys, I’m going home. Maybe I’ll be back on Wednesday. MAYBE.

1. Cyarger
Awesome Job Yet again Leigh!
Pete Pratt
2. PeteP
Now let us repeat, "The war is all Nynaeve's fault."

As Galad, explained, war was coming anyway, and from his perspective, he had to oppose the Prophet and his "vile" motives.

Exactly what does he do wrong?

Nynaeve should have only asked 1 person to get her a ship!

Besides, I love the entry into the riot, with Galad not even drawing his sword until the last second and then breaking the Prophet's men so that they run in fear. Totally cool!

Luca's proposal is awesome, it actually made the circus scenes enjoyable.
3. CalaLily
"I’m gonna say take what happiness you can, and pay for it when you have to."

Isn't that a saying in the books? "Take what you want, and pay for it."

Seems fitting regarding channeler/non-channeler relationships.

Then again, it makes the Aes Sedai/Asha'man bondings more...practical. Relationship-wise, anyway. And if the reactions are even relatively like they are as of KoD, then I wouldn't be surpised if an Aes Sedai bonding an Asha'man becomes much more common than an Aes Sedai bonding a trained Warder. The other way around, I have issues with, because the whole imposition of will thing is too close to damane for my taste.

@Pete: Well, with the Prophet forgetting half the things he promises, I don't blame the girl for having a backup plan. It does suck that she started a war, but does being the catalyst for aggression that was building anyway make her completely responsible?
Andrew J
4. Waitingforthenextpost
Maybe it was because I was expecting it, after this many books, but when I first read Nynaeve trying to get them both to get a ship, I knew this was going to be the end result.

Talk about a rock and a hard place. And her reactions to it make it all worth while to me.

I agree that Galad always does the right thing no matter the result but I have to throw this into Nynaeves lap. She told a fanatic that Rand wanted here and then told a equall fanatic that the best way to keep his sister safe was to get a boat.

Really!? At no point did she think that they might both focus on the only boat that has put in to the town in how long? Really?! Shudder

Luca HAH great comedy there.
Pete Pratt
5. PeteP
No, it removes the responsibility from Galad. Elayne trained us well in hating on Galad and he does not deserve it.

If we ask what was the "but for" or "proximate cause" of the conflict, Nyn sticks out.

Even here, Nyn is blaming Galad and justifying herself, rationalizing her own fault.
Vincent Lane
6. Aegnor
Yeah, I'm definately looking forward to the Rand-Galad meeting. I think it would be interesting.
AJ MacPherson
7. Mackey62
It is not Nyn's fault, it is Moraine's fault for letting Psycho Prophet off his leash. Wait, it is Uno's fault for not controlling his subordinates. No, it is Rand's fault for being the Dragon Reborn and making Psycho Prophet all evangelical.
Claire Edwards
8. ClaireBelle
With regards to apportioning blame, quite how was Nyneave supposed to get Galad to leave them be without agreeing to let him find them transport? As I recall he was pretty implacable about getting Nyn & Elayne out of Samara by any means - whether they wanted to go or not!

Also (as Nyneave said to Galad) why didn't he just come and tell them - the ship wasn't about to up and leave instantly! He didn't seem to care who got hurt as long as he achieved his aim... Here I completely agree with Elayne and Min's assessments of Galad - he will do whatever he thinks is right no matter who it hurts. In this situation he does appear monsterous - he genuinely doesn't seem to care what the consequences of his actions are.
9. MasterAlThor
Galadd started a riot not a war. she breathes deeply, I thumb my earlobe.

Elyane vs Min in breeches: I seem to remember that almost everytime Min is mentioned in breeches by a woman, nothing nice is said. So Elaynes treatment is fair. I would still thumb my earlobe at either one.

And yea! We don't have to go through detox. No more twitching.
Luke M
10. lmelior
I really really really hope and Rand meet up at some point in the last three books...This is right up there with my wishes for a Rand/Tam reunion.
Yeah, those two are high on my list of Reunions I Want To See as well:

Egwene/Bran & Marin


And not really a reunion, but:
Damer Flinn/Nynaeve & other SAS (I harbor a secret hope that Flinn will correctly Heal Siuan and Leane)

I'm sure there are more that I'm forgetting. I know some of those probably won't happen, but I can wish.
11. Lsana
Galad did not start a war for a boat: he started a war to protect the Daughter-Heir of Andor. Elayne is in danger whether she will admit it or not. She needs to get away, and she is needed in Andor. If we think of her as just Elayne, then Galad's actions to protect her may be overkill, but if we remember her social position, they aren't. Suppose that Barack Obama were trapped in a third-world country somewhere. Do we really think the Secret Service would do any less than Galad did to bring him back?

I can't blame Galad for this one. Because of what Elayne is, more than this would be justified to get her to safety.
12. Mike JM
I don't think that it's being sexist about Elayne's pants because most men wouldn't wear pants like that.
mark Proctor
13. mark-p
Nynaeve made a big mistake not realising asking both to find a boat would cause conflict but it is not quite the same as starting the riots her self.

What would have happened if she had trusted Galad a bit more and mentioned something about asking Measema to find a boat as well?

It seems a bit strange that Elayne and Birgitte didn't try to get to know each other a bit more. Surely Elayne trusts her enough to talk about who she is and her background etc. Or did RJ just want to make another joke.

And something i noticed reading Leigh's reread that i didn't the other day rereading the book was Egwene being in their dreams must have been when Aviendha saw her being woken by the wise ones, and joked about her being punished.
Michael Thompson
14. TrollocBait
Nyn started the war. It all comes back to that WOT theme of talking to people and letting them know what is going on. This is one of those times when it is okay for the right hand to know what the left hand is doing.
Jeroen Boerlage
15. Alea_iacta_est
Am i really the only person who actually likes Galad?
I mean, the guy's doing good for the sole purpose of doing good. That's a godlike quality, people! As to the costs of doing good: If the cost would be greater then the outcome, it wouldn't be good. The only thing that leaves to dicuss is which good thing is more important, and in this case, I think Galad keaping his promise is more important. After all, Samara was already on the verge of exploding, and all Galad did was be the one to make it go boom. Not keeping his promise might have given the town an extra week or two, but no more.
Plus, to me, breaking a promise is a mortal sin.
16. MasterAlThor
Mark P

"What would have happened if she had trusted Galad a bit more and mentioned something about asking Measema to find a boat as well?"

This is why people do not like Nynaeve. She is on record saying that men are too stupid for their own good. Why would she trust Galad or the Prophet?

This is both of their faults, but I side with Galad and Lsana's explanation. He knows who Elyane is and how important she is.
j p
17. sps49
I don't blame anyone, but I note that Nyneave isn't volunteering any information that could implicate her.

I don't dislike her, though. I read her (and others') internal monologues as intended for humor and/ or Mars vs. Venus commentary. I'm sure other things spin me up that other readers shrug at.

I always roll my eyes at the girl channelers views on men. You don't need men using physical force, until you really need men using physical force.

(And Birgitte).

And I don't think the boat would have been still been there if Galad hadn't held it up.
18. CalaLily
I can't help feeling the result would have been the same no matter if Nynaeve had told Galad she got the Prophet boat shopping for her or not. He probably would have burst a blood vessel and tried to seize it anyway. I mean, him leaving the well-being of his sister -not to mention the all-important Daughter Heir- to the whims of a madman with bloodthirsty cut-throats for henchmen? I think not. Plus, I don't even think Masema told his followers what he wanted the boat for, did he? If Ny and El had managed to even get to the docks, would they gotten on board without having to carve a path to the boarding ramp? Would they have taken on all those people waiting there for the ship?

While I do understand Nynaeve's part in the exploded pustule of Bad that is Samara, I don't think it's fair to say that she's the sole cause of it.
19. Seamus1602
Galas certainly deserves some blame for this war. Regardless if Nyn's actions, Galad's utter disregard for the price associated with his actions (I.e. Starting a war to get these 2 a boat) that has always been Elayne's problem with him. Nyn put 2 parties on a collision course, but if Galad was not as consumed by madness (I consider willful disregard for human life as a consequence to be madness) as Masema. If either of those parties are remotely sane, they would have informed Nyn and them taken action. Instead, Masema acts predictably acts like a loon while Galad does as well, something only Elayne recognized coming.
mark Proctor
20. mark-p
MasterAlThor, 16.
I wouldn't trust the Prophet either.
and all Nynaeve really knows about Galad is what Elayne told her, so maybe she dosn't have much reason to trust him (he could have decided to get the white cloaks more involved in their protection or something else inconvenient) but he could have done a better job (not triggered the riot) if he had all the information.
but supposing Nynaeve hadn't spoken to the Prophet and he had seized the boat for a different reason, would Galads actions have been better?
21. Drew Holton
This scene of Galad fighting in the riot is what convinced me that of all the blademasters we've seen in action, Rand, Lan, Toram Riatin, Tam, et al, *he* is truly the Master. None of the others, it seems to me, displayed the utter casual, effortless, and nonchalant skill we see as he wades into those rioters. On the other hand, in KoD, as much as I enjoyed the encounter, the fight between Galad and Eamon Valda seems to contradict this. We've seen blademasters face off before, Rand vs High Lord Whatisname, Lan and his "buddy" in New Spring, Rand and Toram (in a sparring match), yet none of the "good guys" came so close to losing as Galad, or at least bleeding to death. Was Eamon Valda just really, really good? Could any of the blademasters have done equally well against the rioters? Quick Poll: Rate the Blademaster! (no doubt this will restart the "Lan is bad" series again...)
22. porcelina
A couple of posts ago, someone asked for an example of a real-life version of Masema. I was still catching up at that point so I was too late for that post, but now that I am caught up, I have to point out IMHO the most obvious example that no one else mentioned.

In advance: I realize this may not go over well, and I truly don't mean to be offensive, but personal feelings aside, there are some striking coincidences.

Masema could be based on the real-life Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (in his later years, not his peaceful early years).

Mohammed, by today's standards, would be considered insane (hallucinations, delusions of grandeur, etc.) Both are initially motivated by a very noble goal, but eventually turn to violent means. Both take from the rich to give to the poor, and both Prophets themselves lived modestly and didn't use those taxes for personal (non-military) gain. Both are obsessed with all nations of the world joining their cause. Both use draconian punishments (e.g. flogging) for relatively harmless (from the modern POV) acts like blasphemy, alcohol consumption, and showing too much skin (for women). Finally, both condone violence if it's a means to their end (Mohammed employed such people in wars against neighboring pagan and Jewish regions).

And obviously, just following either Prophet's teachings does not automatically mean that you become violent or evil, but there are several examples of people in WoT and iRL who use those teachings to do horrible things. Masema's role I think makes a point about the danger of people who are already predisposed to violence, now getting religious authority to do whatever they want. Same idea with the Whitecloaks (who resemble the Christian religion during the Inquisition), but there are slight differences in the exact nature of the religious conviction.
23. MasterAlThor
I am not justifying Galad's actions. I am saying that Nynaeve is mostly responsible. And this could have been avoided.

Galad knowing what needed to be known could have made for a better end. I say could have because then he would be trusting the Prophet. But lets say that he knew that the Prophet was getting a boat. When Galad found out that there was a boat in town he could have come and told Nynaeve. Again I say could because we don't really know what he would have done in that situation.

Nynaeve has to take blame for setting tow people at the same target. I agree with the earlier poster that said that Galad and the Prophet are fanatics. Come on Nyn, man/woman up.
24. Latecomer

Happy Monday to you too! :)
25. MasterAlThor
Hmmmmm rate blademasters.


after those 3 who else really matters???
Lannis .
26. Lannis
Does anyone else wonder if Luca will magically run into Nynaeve and Lan soon, and recap his flowery ultimatum?--with comical consequences? I kind of want to see this...

CalaLily @ 3: re: channeler/non-channeler relationships... Then again, it makes the Aes Sedai/Asha'man bondings more...practical. Relationship-wise, anyway.

Yeah, I remember having an "Aha!" moment when the Asha'man started bonding... it's one of those things that's bugged me from the beginning, in a melancholy "love is blind" kind of way...

Great recap, Leigh! Thanks! Love the snarcasm, btw. :)
27. The Ninth Horse
Drew Holton @ 21: A trained swordsman and a bunch of equally trained fighters at his back vs. a mob of untrained, ineffectively armed zealots. How good the swordsman looks is not a good indicator of his actual skill.
When Galad fought Eamon Valda, we were supposed to believe he was not as good.
When Rand fought Toram Riatan, he did pretty well until the sky decided to snack on the people around him.
Pete Pratt
28. PeteP
The problem with the whole "who started the war" issue is that Elayne and Nynaeve blame Galad for it.

Again, what did he do to start a war?

1. Nyn asks for a boat.
2. Galad arranges for transport in order to protect the Daughter-heir, even if under Whitecloak law he should arrest her.
3. Galad protects said boat.
4. Prophet's men attempt to seize said boat for "unknown reasons"
5. Whitecloaks protect boat.
6. Galad comes circus.
7. Galad escorts Elayne and Nynaeve to boat, breaking the attackers with grace and style.

What exactly did he do wrong?

Now let's look at Nynaeve.

1. Nynaeve sees Uno and follows him.
2. Nynaeve asks explains problem of leaving town.
3. Uno tells Nynaeve that Prophet could help.
4. Nynaeve goes to Prophet and lies about reason for wanting to boat.
5. Nynaeve also risks serious problems with Prophet due to her attitude.
6. Nynaeve attempts to avoid Galad.
7. Nynaeve accepts Galad's aid in finding said boat.
8. Nynaeve fails to inform either side Galad or the Prophet that she commissioned two hostile groups to aid her.
9. Any reasonable person would suppose that engaging two hostile groups in the same task would lead to conflict.
10. Upon obtaining news of the boat being secured by Galad, Nynaeve blames Galad for starting a war.
11. Nynaeve and Elayne is successfully escorted to boat by Galad.

Again, who is being reckless and who is being responsible?
craig thrift
29. gagecreedlives
I honestly think the battle between whitecloaks and Masema would of happened anyway and soon. The boat was just the catalyst but it could have just as easily been something else.


That would be a funny scene but remember Luca is now married himself. And I really have trouble imagining Lan at a circus.
John Massey
30. subwoofer
Hi Leigh- missed the podcast, will look for it on youtube, maybe luck out.

Galad- moment of coolness in this. The way he whooped a$$ with the sword with his deadly dance of death. Good times. Even the Shienarans were eying him with respect afterward.

As for whose fault. Nobody wins when you play the blame game. Suffice it to say, the end result was some pages of fun reading and a hurried exit that was made special by Luca. The only level of guilt I will allot is Ny holding Galad in contempt for keeping his word. Call me old fashion, but the way I was raised was that your word is your bond and a person should not take that lightly.

Just sayin'.

Go Bela!
John Fitzingo
31. Xandar01
@11. Lsana

Well said about Galad protecting Elayne's status. It puts the whole situation in a different perspective. I'd like to add, it doesn't take much to start a riot when people are already cramped and agitated. I was working at SF Magic Mountain in 93 when they had a big riot. Don't know what exactly started it, but they do snowball out of control pretty quickly. On top of that, we've discussed incessantly how lawless the Prohpet's followers are. I imagine they took the excuse of violence or even a threat of violence to riot. (LA R. King riot of '92 anyone?) So how could we blame Nyn or Galad?

For those that do like to blame Nyn, isn't this the second riot that the Super Girls are somehow responsible for starting?
32. whatusername
@21 Drew -- Rand vs High Lord Turak was pretty close (Rand wasn't a blademaster until *after* that fight though..) -- I would have said going to sheathe the sword is about as close as bleeding to death.

Wasn't Rand training against something like 4 or 5 Aiel simultaneously? (rather than just farmers/townsfolk rioting?).

On that note - Uno/Ragan/etc -- Gareth Bryne recruits them as Heavy Cavalry / Lancers - if that's the case - then how well do they fight on foot/hand-to-hand? That could explain the discrepancy - why they took injuries from the peasants but Galad didn't.

In Summary - Rand / Lan / Galad / Valda / etc are all damn good with a blade. (Although there's obviously a lot more blademasters than those 4 (plus Tam & Toram) if you need to be able to get a panel of 5 together to raise a new blademaster.
33. Latecomer
Re. Blademaster's list... I don't think Rand minus hand isn't going to be particularly awesome. And of course once you have all decided on 'the best swordsmen in the world', Mat will come along and kick their asses with a quarterstaff :)

Re. Elayne's breeches v/s Min's.
I've always pictured Elyane's as the sort of outfits the matadors wear, tight, ostentious look at me type clothing.
Min OTOH I picture as wearing the sort of trousers most women wear in their daily life - practical but not flashy.
I'm probably totally wrong, and they are the same - but that's what my head pictures.

Re poster @22 - comparison of crazy prophets.. are'nt they all insane by todat's standards?

Moses - ddoes magic, god spoke to him, everyone but the chose people will die - yeah right!

Jesus - raises the dead, rouses people against religious authority, claims to be gods son, rises from the dead himself after a seriously emo scene - yeah right!

The point is that all religions want to say that THEY are right, THEY are god's chosen ones, THEY are the upholders of morality and justice and everyone else is wrong. Christians can't go around saying that the pagans are lovely folk and their religions are great too - why should anyone then convert to Christianity.

Finally re. the point about attracting the people pre-disposed to violence - Don't we hear this all the time about the Army? The perfect home for violent, crazy, impulsive, rash people - its called bravery in war times.
Lannis .
34. Lannis
Gagecreed @ 29: Damn! I forgot that Luca's married now... my memory of the last few books is pretty hazy... thanks for shattering my dream! ;P
35. Sonofthunder
Ok question. This may not be in these two chapters, but Luca reminded me. What, pray tell, is a well-turned calf? Is that just a fine-looking leg? Any of the ladies care to enlighten me here?? It's been bothering me ever since I've read it applied to almost every handsome man in WoT ever...
36. alreadymadwithfickleloon
Hold on a minute! Why is the war Galad's fault?
Somebody said that Galad would never entrust the safety of Nynaeve and Elayne to Masema even had he known. I agree. The man is unstable. Somebody pointed out he may not even have told his followers what the boat was for. I doubt he even remembers. His attention span in things not Dragon related was obviously all over the map. It might be a bit too much to blame Nynaeve too. After all, how was she to know what the consequences of her actions were. It's not as if she has a reputation for forethought. Galad had a point. The Children and the Prophet's followers would have come to blows eventually. In his position, I'd agree it might as well have been over safe passage for Elayne and Nynaeve.

They might have worked, but she wanted to lash out. At something, anything.

That's Nynaeve's temper going into a boil over something she started. Really, trying to look for somebody to lay the blame on once more? That's wisdom for you.

And special mention to one of my favorite quotes:

If you want to draw attention, don't bother fiddling. It is too obvious. Just breathe deeply
Deborah Jones
37. NanaD
Son of thunder ,you are correct.
It refers to a nice shapely leg. I believe the formal dress for Randland was tight pants ending just below the knee worn with tights or long socks.
38. ZamIt
Lannis, I don't think Luca will repeat he love for Nynaeve anytime soon. Luca is married, as his wife would be about as dangerous as Lan.
Speaking of Luca, I don't think I really cared much for him at this point. He just kind of annoyed me. I can see his comic role better now, but he still is far from my favorite character.
39. JennB
It is ridiculous to blame Nynaeve for the riot.

They needed a boat, so she asked the only person she know of with the power to get one. She was told he probably would not remember. (And of course she lied to him, Uno told her Masema would not help and possibly would have killed her if she had told him the truth.)

Galad offered to help and would not take no for an answer. Having two people looking for a boat increases your chances of finding a boat. Of course she did not tell Galad she had been visiting with a madman who could have killed her just for being who she is. (She also wants to give Galad the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Elayne's assessment of him.)

Galad also is not to blame. He did what he needed to do to protect his sister and he knew that the riot would happen anyways.

Masema and the famine are at fault. Both destabilized the city and insured violence was on the way. In fact it had already started before Nynaeve had talked to the Propet and had been getting worse the whole time she was waiting for the boat.
Pete Pratt
40. PeteP
JennB -- Nyn is the cause. Without her actions, there would not been a riot at that time. Nyn is reckless.

But Elayne and Nyn blame Galad without any good reason!
41. alreadymadwithdissingalad
The only thing I will agree on is that Nynaeve and Elayne are again being patently unfair in their judgment of Galad. Blaming everything on Nynaeve is probably stretching it, as she was just looking for a way to get out of that place. But selling Galad short for just literally starting a war to get them out of there? Were they supposed to put their faith in an unstable loon like Masema? Really, Galad deserves a bit more credit.
sandi vogel
42. sinfulcashew
In response to the comment about Elaynes 'britches'.
I gathered that the comments were about the 'tightness' of the aforementioned trousers.
Not that she was wearing trousers.

I think that RJ is to blame for all this commenting about who did what to whom and their responsibility in the whole fiasco.

After all the Creator is always to blame!!!!!
43. Rampant Lion
On the blademaster issue I would really like to Tam in a dual against another blademaster. Tam might have been rusty early in the series but since training Aram and some of the Two Rivers men Im sure he's shaken out the cobb webs and now he has old man strenght on top of his skill.
Rikka Cordin
44. Rikka
I really really really hope he and Rand meet up at some point in the last three books, and I really really really hope that someone clues him in to the fact that he and Rand are half-brothers, because damn I want to see that reaction. (Rand already knows, or at least knows enough to be able to make the connection, though I’m also going to take a moment to feel annoyed that we’ve never gotten Rand’s thoughts on the situation either.)

I would pay to see that. And I think Rand probably doesn't know because he's a bit dense about the whole family ties thing (it took him how many books to figure out that Tigraine was his mommy? Though he did recognize the potential for ElaynexRand incest pretty quickly, if subconsciously...) but then again, Rand hasn't made his relation to the former Daughter Heir known to... anyone really which limits him having someone else be able to point the obvious out to him. Moiraine knew/knows (amIright?) but she's not around and I'm pretty sure no one else knows. Though... that one Andoran lady could have had an idea if she had more wit and less ambition....
Richard Fife
45. R.Fife
Can't we just say the riot is Masema's fault for actually remembering to do something someone asked him for once?

Seriously, I'm in the "it's all their faults". Masema for being crazy prophet dude and whipping up a riot, Galad for going crazy "must have boat at all costs", Nynaeve for both asking two diff peeps and for not cluing at least one of said peeps in that she asked someone else, and--most importantly--the streetfulls of average mob members for being light-blinded goat-kissing sheep. Gah I hate stupid people, especially in large quantities and without names.
j p
46. sps49
@33 Latecomer-

Violent, crazy, impulsive, rash are not generally desired in the military. Attacks are desired at particular times, toward particular objectives, and as part of a team of some size.

@44 Rikka-

Rand is lucky someone told him about his mother, because there is no way he was going to figure it out.

Which just reminds me of this:

Gitara: He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount!

Moiraine: Too bad she didn't specify when and where the Dragon was reborn.

Siuan: Yes, it's quite a puzzle.

Moiraine: Yes, if only there were some specificity to her comments.

Tamra: To be safe, fill this journal with the name of every boy born in the last ten years from here to the ocean.
John Massey
47. subwoofer
'K- let's get down to it.

First off-Elayne and pants. No problem with it. Maybe Birgette's comments are related to Elayne having a big bum? ;)

Galad- his first duty is to ensure the daughter-heir's safety. He did that by getting her on the boat.

Uno- love the guy just about dying to cuss, but having the integrity to try not to at Nana's "request".

War: Prophet+ request=disaster. Maybe if Ny had a short stick she could go poke a bear.

Speaking of Ny, just wanted to touch briefly on some of the text. Specifically the bit about her motivation for leaving the TR. I find it interesting that throughout the story she does keep her loyalty to the "kids" she set out to protect. All the way to helping Rand cleanse Sadin. Also her quest to enter the Tower to learn how to HEAL. That's a biggun for me.

Another thing she talks about is her tug of war with Moiraine. I find this motivation curious on many levels. She wants to break Moiraine's bond to Lan. She wants to become full AS and rise above to one up Moiraine. Interesting power struggle there. Moiraine must of really pissed in Ny's Cornflakes when I wasn't looking. Granted it was cool when Lan had to struggle with his loyalty to Mo and Ny and was pulled in two directions.

Can't Ny just say, "hey, this is the guy I love. He loves me too. We want to be married, can you pass his bond off?" Is Moiraine so hell bent on ticking Ny off that she would not? Seems to be another case where a little communication could go a long way. I dunno. Just musing...
James Jones
49. jamesedjones
47 Subwoofer

"Moiraine must of really pissed in Ny's Cornflakes when I wasn't looking."

I'm still laughing at that one. Where did it come from?

Also, there was a scene where Nyneave considered asking Moiraine (or Egwene thought about Nyneave's situation) and concluded that it would be too much for Nyneave's pride. It was one of those slow parts in the series, so I'm not sure if it was before or after where we are in the reread. Anyone else remember the part I'm thinking of?

Awesome pic.
Ryan Thistlethwaite
50. shintemaster
Re: Uno and the swearing.

I also get great lols out of that, I'm pretty sure Nyneave admires his effort and later tells him maybe every second sentence would be ok. Check the books - Jordan actually then writes dialogue with Uno really swearing in every second line. Funny, smart and creative writing with real personality.
51. MasterAlThor
Ah Latecomer why did you go and kick the anthill?

Apparently you care not for Christianity or the military.

Let me correct you on one thing since someone else already took care of the military part.

Moses didn't do magic. You can say all day that he did, but Moses himself said that he could do nothing without God. So really God used Moses to do miracles.

By the way, God speaks to everyone. We just choose wether or not to listen or acknowledge Him.

Another aside, I fall into the Christian camp. I believe that our way is the only way, but I will not begrudge anyone for what they believe or don't believe. Faith is a personal choice.
Hurin Smells
53. HurinSmells
Galad - utilmate bad-ass in these chapters. Which is great cause we don't see him again until the KoD prologue! Can't wait till the family re-union with Rand (who definately knows he's his brother, as of LoC Ch16, also, Mo is his Aunt!), before he hook's up with Berelain and takes the Sun Throne. It'll be interesting to see how such a no-nonsense guy manages in the Game of Houses!

Ny - is in no way accountable for the war. She may have been the catalyst, but Whitecloaks + Dragonsworn was always going to end badly. Ny needed a boat, and she got one. Wars have been started over less.
John Massey
54. subwoofer
Entering the White Tower to learn how better to pull down Moiraine had become a burning desire to learn how to Heal

And there was the bit in a book- I forget which one, where Lan learns that Ny is being sent to Ebou Dar- flips out and says he will get on a horse right away... then things go sideways from there.

Er... not that I am against good conversation and dialogue but maybe avoiding comments involving real world politics and religion would not be a bad idea. It was always a great way to start an argument at Thanksgiving- mention politics with my dad and my brothers in the room and watch the fireworks. Same applies here. Have already stated my faith so it would be redundant.

Have to give Ny a short stick and point her in the direction of the nearest bear.
John Massey
55. subwoofer
Maybe Ny should of asked Galad for a nine horse hitch;)
Roger Powell
56. forkroot

Lan doesn't "flip out", IIRC. He was being held on an extremely tight leash (close to compelled) by Myrelle. Myrelle had a reputation for saving Warders when their Aes Sedai died; it appears that some of her methods were less than ethical. I have a feeling that other Aes Sedai preferred not to look too closely (y'know laws, sausages, etc.)

At any rate - Egwene is now on to Myrelle (and in the process of blackmailing her.) She informs Lan of Nynaeve's situation (and probably orders Myrelle to reduce the compulsion.)

Lan, now given a purpose, is indeed reinvigorated emotionally and heads for Ebou Dar with Egwene's help.

Stepping back for a moment: Why was Lan with Myrelle? Because of Moiraine's planning! She arranged so that if anything should happen to her, the bond would pass to Myrelle who was under instruction to pass it to Nynaeve when she was raised. Moraine could not have arranged to pass it to Nynaeve as she was only an Accepted.

So, despite Nynaeve's venomous thoughts about Moraine, Mo has arranged things for Nyn's ultimate benefit. Obviously it was more out of affection for Lan, although Moraine did not bear Nynaeve any ill will either.
Ryan Thistlethwaite
57. shintemaster
@ subwoofer
I also think talking about religion, at least the real world equivalents should be restricted to influences and similarities in the books.

@ Master Al'Thor
I'm not interested in your religion or interpretation of the story of Moses. I'd suggest that you might find it better to not bring fantasy into a blog about a errrr, fantasy series.
John Massey
58. subwoofer
Yet if they held the mob, it was Galad who broke them. He faced their charge as though awaiting the next dance at the ball, arms folded and unconcerned, not even bothering to bare his blade until they were almost on top of him. Then he did dance, all his grace turned in and instant to fluid death. He did not stand against them; he carved a path into their heart, a clear swath as wide as his sword's reach. Sometimes five or six men closed in around him with swords and axes and table legs for clubs, but only for the brief time it took for them to die. In the end, all their rage, all their thirst for blood could not face him. It was from him that the first ran, flinging away weapons, and when the rest fled, they divided around him. As they vanished back the way they had come, he stood twenty paces from anyone else, alone among the dead and the groans of the dying.

Nynaeve shivered as he bent to clean his blade on a corpse's coat. He was graceful, even doing that. He was beautiful, even doing that. She thought she might sick up.

She had no idea how ong it had taken. Some of the Shienarans were leaning on their swords, panting. And eying Galad with a good deal of respect. Thom was bent over with one hand on his knee, trying to fend Elayne off with the other while telling her he just had to catch his breath. Minutes, an hour; it could have been either.

For once, looking at the injured men lying on the pavement here and there, the one crawling away, she felt no desire to Heal no pity at all. Not far off was the pitchfork, where someone had flung it; a man's severed head was impaled on one tine, a woman's on another. All she felt was queasy, and grateful that it was not her head. That, and cold.

"Thank you," she said aloud, to no one in particular and to everyone. "Thank you very much." The words grated a little- she did not like confessing something she had not been able to do for herself- but they were fervent.

Just wanted to throw in a bit of text I really loved that was summarized. Thought it was cool with Galad, and Ny admitting out loud, that she was grateful for other people's help. A watershed moment in WoT.

@forkroot- just a figure of speech:) Perhaps I should of said spaz out. I dunno. Never said Mo had any feelings of ill will to Ny. Just that somebody- read Ny- should of swallowed her pride and sat down and talked with Mo. See- it seemed like Mo pissed in Ny's Cornflakes- not the other way 'round. And Mo could of maybe given Ny a letter or something explaining things. Maybe even a post dated letter to Lan. Use the Postal Service. It would of reached Lan well after Mo's "death"- in case she was worried that Lan would try to alter events.

edit- ummm... no offense to any Postal workers out there... just sayin'

Go Bela!
59. Valan
@57 Shintemaster
Damn. Ouch.
Yeah agree, this is not the place for such things, as i recall things getting nasty afterwards on a previous occasion, please stay away from touchy subjects unless its about whether or whether not you hate Elayne. ;)

I was once swayed by Elayne about Galad, but now I realize that I dislike Elayne, and Galad is a badass. Style does count for a lot, even if it is seperate from skill. If you can make it look effortless, it'll make your enemies that much more afraid of you. Plus promises count for something in my book too, and those Dragonsworn are crazy as hell. I definately think this is a case of Fain's evil spreading, starting with Masema at Far Dara.
60. Valan
@57 Shintemaster
Damn. Ouch.
Yeah agree, this is not the place for such things, as i recall things getting nasty afterwards on a previous occasion, please stay away from touchy subjects unless its about whether or whether not you hate Elayne. ;)

I was once swayed by Elayne about Galad, but now I realize that I dislike Elayne, and Galad is a badass. Style does count for a lot, even if it is seperate from skill. If you can make it look effortless, it'll make your enemies that much more afraid of you. Plus promises count for something in my book too, and those Dragonsworn are crazy as hell. I definately think this is a case of Fain's evil spreading, starting with Masema at Far Dara.
61. Latecomer
Sorry - not trying to offend anyone but was trying to point out that almost every religion was spearheaded by someone that would be considered crazy if he was walking the streets talking that sort of today in today's day and age.

Re the war thing - I've read a few opnions in various books and essays that a lot of people that are considered 'trouble-makers' in normal life actually do very well in the milatary and shine in combat situations. This is due to some characteristics that make them 'heroes' (and also the discipline and training I imagine) - those same characteristics might not be so valuable as a software engineer. I probably didn't phrase any of my first comment well - I was so excited to have read the post within the first 8 hours for once, and I had a few quick minutes to comment only.

Moiraine - one of the reasons I love that lady is that she knew full well about Lan and Nyn, figured out that Nyn being who she is would never have taken the first step and arranged for the happy couple to be togther - all done practically within the confines of tower law.

It was a good idea sending Lan to Myrelle first anyway, even if Nyn HAD been a full sister. Lan would have come to the relationship full of guilt and bitterness and Nyn would have been at the same time resentful and guilty towards Moiraine as well.
Hurin Smells
62. HurinSmells
I think the most recent example of religious "craziness" being accepted by a large number of people is Scientology. Starting a relgion based on a self-help program is a little more mundane than a crazed Borderlands warrior claiming the Dragon Reborn is the Light made flesh.

I have a pretty good feeling that Masema is a puppet of Demandred though. The only thing he lacks that all other good prophets have is a miracle, and I suspect Demandred may be the one to help him out in that area.
James Jones
63. jamesedjones
61 Latecomer

Wow. That was very classy. A lot of our flame wars might be smaller and more reasonable if more folks followed your example. Thanks for the clarification.
64. Noren
Nah.Masema is just plain old garden variety crazy.Perhaps a little touched by Fain's special brand of insanity,but even that I doubt;a seemingly constant effect of Fain's influence is a hatred of Rand,which Masema hasn't exhibited.

Galad:distilled awesome.To be admired from afar.By surveillance drone.Looking forward to his next meeting with Rand.AND waiting with bated breath for his meeting with Berelain;here's hoping he falls for her as hard as she will fall for him:)

Why is it that no one ever seems to count Mat when enumerating blademasters?Are spears being discriminated against?Even Galad's scene here comes nowhere near matching what Mat did outside the hell in KoD.And he was wielding KNIVES!!!I wonder if there's an equivalent rank among the Aiel...

PS It just occurred to me that an awful lot of A- and B-list characters are related by blood or marriage to Rand.Is it all in my head,or is he accumulating the kind of huge household that LTT used to have?
Pete Pratt
65. PeteP
subwoofer @ 58
Thank you for posting the whole passage. I actually got excited reading through these chapters during this re-read looking forward to Galad (and I have read this book at least 15 times).

I really like Galad now that I can look at him without Elayne's hatred. Amazing what one POV in KoD can do.....
Michael Catapano
66. hoping
The to-do at the docks was inevitable. Samara was a tinderbox. Masema and the Dragonrabble (90's death metal group, iirc) have been causing trouble since tGH, or thereabouts. Just more DO inspired chaos that will have to be cleaned up eventually. Anyway, it was good to see some action finally and move this story out of the dreaded circus scenes.

Galad was great - wanted to do the right thing, did the right thing and kicked ass doing it. Even the Shienarans were suitably impressed.

"light blinded goat-kissing sheep" !?
You know how I feel about goats. Must be some discerning sheep

re blademasters
I think RJ said in a blog that Lan was best and Rand second. As of KOD ending, I think we have to move Galad into second place.

re reunions we'd like to see
Mandarb and Bela. He always had a thing about a well turned fetlock
Hurin Smells
67. HurinSmells
OMG! I never made the Kinslayer connection until your post! That would be a very interesting twist, and a good way to redeem the plot after having such a low head-count of major characters.
Maiane Bakroeva
68. Isilel
I have to say that reading the circus chapters (which I otherwise rather enjoy for their humor), I can't help but grind my teeth at El learning various useless tricks like rope-acrobatics at a breakneck speed, whilst neglecting to pick up some very necessary fighting skills from Cerandin and later Brigitte.
I mean, how many times have the SGs have been in the soup to date, where chanelling couldn't help them, but some physical fighting could? Ditto Nyn. It is particularly frustrating since Nyn often longs to lay into things with a stick, and sometimes follows the impulse. Maybe your subconscious tries to tell you something there, girl?

And they could have worked out their steam and not exposed us to such concentrated cattiness at such length in the bargain.

Luca is awesome! But then, I am in the minority of those who always liked the circus sequences, in these early books.

Re: Galad, strict idealists are very dangerous people. Remember, please, that French Revolution and Russian October Revolution, as well as many others where carried out by idealists, who proceeded to spill rivers of blood in a futile attempt to make reality conform to their world view. And the terrible thing is - they meant well, most of them.

Anyway, I really hope that Galad's experiences in the world, so to speak, are going to bring him down to earth a bit.
And I have to say that if he was so worried about defending Andoran interests - why ever did he join WCs in the first place?
Seriously, the guy's adopted mother, sister and aunt are channelers! And he loves the first 2 and doesn't hate the last as far as we know. How messed up is it that he joined such an organization?!

I always rather liked Galad, though, and thought that Elayne's treatment of her brothers when she hared off to Tear was inexcusable.

It is sort of funny in a sad way that WCs and Dragonsworn share intense hatred of channelers, but still hate each other even more. And aren't WCs also supposed to be ascetic, theoretically? Yes, a lot of troubling similarities, indeed. Once WCs admit that Rand is the real thing, are they going to be one big happy family? Urgh.

I don't absolve Nyn of her share of the blame - there wasn't any real reason not to warn Galad about Masema, but to say that she _caused_ all this is too strong.

Re: well-turned calves - when men wore tights or knee-length pantaloons and stockings, calves were one of the standards of male beauty. Because so many people were bandy-legged due to rickets, I imagine.
Oh, and female calves were covered by long skirts, of course.
Michael Catapano
69. hoping

Re: Galad, strict idealists are very dangerous people. Remember, please, that French Revolution and Russian October Revolution, as well as many others where carried out by idealists, who proceeded to spill rivers of blood in a futile attempt to make reality conform to their world view. And the terrible thing is - they meant well, most of them.

I take it that you don't approve of Galad.

He should have reported them to the WC commander. That would have been the *right* right thing to do. Instead, he protected his sister and a friend in a very lawless part of the world, at no small risk to himself. So, I think he comes off pretty well here.
Michael Ikeda
70. mikeda

Galad's a natural fanatic. Of COURSE he's going to join, and fit in well with, an organization of fanatics.
John Massey
71. subwoofer
@Hoping- Mandrab &Bela *LOL* A match made in heaven.

@Noreen- hmmmm... seems like all that begatting after the last breaking of the world is leading to somewhere. I dunno if there is going to be mass carnage this time as Rand cleansed Sadin. Unless he went loony before the cleanse.

Viva le Revolution! Viva Canada! Eh;)
Maiane Bakroeva
72. Isilel

How could I approve of somebody who knows for a fact that channelers aren't inherently evil and cares deeply about a few of them, joining an organization such as WCs?

I don't agree with El's opinion on him and always said that El treated her brothers abominably and idiotically when she didn't explain to them at least some of what was going on (they were in danger from the BA too!) and take them along to Tear.

But that idealism untampered by practicality and mercy can be incredibly dangerous and lead to major bloodshed and suffering - well, there are more than enough examples of that in history, sadly. Today, especially this comes to mind.
Lannis .
73. Lannis
Noren @ 64: re: Rand's cast of relatives... you just tickled a random thought for me... bear with me, guys, here it comes...

What if the idea of helping Rand save his big ol' family he hasn't even had a chance to enjoy will somehow kick LLT into survival mode? What if the idea of doing for Rand and Rand's family what LLT couldn't do for his own (namely ensuring their survival) will be one of those key factors in Rand and LLT truly working hand in hand in the Last Battle?

There she is, folks... cut her to ribbons... though be forewarned, she's just an idea and I'm pretty busy lately (international relatives are here for summer vacay), so I probably won't be around much to defend it... besides, s'just a goofy idea... :)
Marcus W
74. toryx
I think it's funny that Elayne and Nynaeve are so disparaging of Galad for starting a riot when they did the exact same thing, intentionally, in Tanchico. How many people died that day? Have they ever given any thoughts of remorse for that?

Yet Galad is a monster for sparking a riot to help them.

Having said that, I don't blame Nynaeve for it either. As Galad points out, the whole situation was a powder keg already. Almost anything could have started it.

I like Galad, but I have a little bit of trouble with how awesome he is in battle. Taking on that mob without getting a scratch when everyone else, trained warriors from one of the most dangerous lands in the world, gets hurt? I just don't buy it.

Rand does know that Galad is his brother. He works it out after he asks Dylin a bunch of careful questions in LoC.

Elayne's pants: I think the reason she's getting so much flack is because they're extremely tight. Far tighter than what Min wears (until LoC anyway) and certainly tighter than Birgitte's. It's one thing to show a lot of leg; it's quite another thing to outline other bits of the feminine figure. At least, in that particular culture.

Frankly, I'm still shocked that Elayne consented to wear them.
John Massey
75. subwoofer
I don't want to get too much into weapon arcs but here's the thing. Shienarans are horsemen. They carry their broadswords on their backs because they are so long. Long, heavy, takes two hands to wield and has a long swing and recovery. A heron marked blade Rand, Lan, or one like Galad's has a much smaller arc and can be swung quicker with more recovery and chance to parry. Less tip velocity and momentum. Just as quick though.

The thing that really burns me is the people bringing knives to a sword fight. They must be like Fairbains or really long daggers because of the very limited range. It is like fighting a guy with a two foot reach advantage.

Just sayin'.
Joseph Blaidd
76. SteelBlaidd
For all the argument about whose at fault about starting the riot I think the most telling demonstration of Galad's character is this.

He started a war to keep a promise — Elayne was right about that; it would be a war, if it was not already — yet, with his men holding Neres’ ship, he would not demand a better price. It was Neres’ ship, and Neres could charge as he chose.

Consider the commitment to civilized behavior that it takes to not include "I'm letting you keep your head" as a part of the negotiated fare for which benefit Mr. Neres should give him a suitable discount. Especially in contrast to the shameless way in which the girls blackmail and extort him into providing space for the refugees. Even if he is a smuggler and it is a good deed.

on a side note, I absolutely love Elaynes use of "primal Scream Therapy" and he way that it works as a stress relief just long enough for some one to twit her about it. :)
Emma B
77. EmmaB
I always think of Elayne's breeches/coat here, and LoC Min's, as being roughly equivalent to modern-day equestrian ensembles, which is to say a pair of skintight leggings with a hip-length coat. Men's breeches, which is what pre-LoC Min wore, would be a good bit looser through the hips and seat. Without stretch knit fabrics, men need several inches of ease, especially to mount a horse.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable today just walking around in public in that kind of outfit. I've spent a lot of time in both riding breeches and skimpy workout clothes, but I feel kind of naked if I pop into the grocery store on your way home from the barn or the gym. Elayne's getup strikes me as the WoT equivalent of walking around downtown wearing a bikini.
Maiane Bakroeva
78. Isilel
Galad _is_ a trained warrior - he probably trained at arms since he was 4 or 5. And given his dedication to duty we know that he trained to the best of his ability. Add huge native talent to that and he is a much more plausible super-badass fighter than Duopotamians or Aram or whoever.

He didn't have battle experience before the series started, that's all.

Re: Shienarans, they don't have Galad's talent. No amount of experience can make up for that in the long run, given equal dedication to training, of course.

Re: knives to a sword fight, indeed. It always baffles me that the rare women whom Jordan allows to have some skill at physical fighting (apart from the Maidens, of course) are also perennially stuck with inferior weapons. As if they don't have enough physical disadvantages to overcome!

If I was a Hunter for the Horn or a Saldean officer's wife, etc., I sure would have preferred not to get into very close quarters that knife fighting requires and packed a nice rapier or cavalry saber instead. Ditto Brigitte - a bow is all well and good, but once enemies get into melee range even a hatchet would be preferable to a dagger.
79. zdrakec
If this were movie: William Atherton = Valan Luca.

Blake Engholm
80. UncrownedKing
Ha ha ha I love this right now.

The whole Galad stuff.
I say that he is not a likable person until KoD, but I'll agree that he did nothing wrong here. Nyn and Elayne are wrong in this instance (they are wrong most the time are they not?). So I'm on the Galad side of the fence Go Light!

@66 hoping

Mandarb's cheating eyes! Better hope Aldieb doesn't see all this or there will be equestri-cide.

Hopeful Reunions:

- Fain & Rand
- The big 3
- Lan and Malkier
- Moraine and everyone (Moraine and
- Elaida....Muahhahahah)
- Rand and Galad and Gawyn
and if Morgase and Elayne don't meet up soon I will explode
Marcus W
81. toryx
Despite the different degrees of training, different types of weapons and talent, it still strikes me as incredibly unlikely for anyone, no matter how skilled, to walk into a pitched battle against multiple opponents and walk out again without a scratch.

That's all I'm saying.

With every other great fighter and hero in these books, including Lan, they always get at least a bruise or a nick if not a gash or slash. Until Galad comes along.

Of course, he's the Arthurian parallel of Galahad so it's probably to be expected but it still irritates me a little.
James Jones
82. jamesedjones
73 Lannis

Since I endorse Looney Theories (even though I might not agree with them), I'd like to suggest that your theory also has the benefit of translation. 'His blood on the rocks of SG' could reference the red stuff inside him, but it could also reference the blood in his family; maybe even his twins.
Blake Engholm
83. UncrownedKing

If the blood of his twins happens, then does that lead to "there will be others" conversation with Cheni... I mean Elayne. Which then leads to the Childeren of Dune... I mean Randland. and other bad sequals? sorry bad flash back there.
Vincent Lane
84. Aegnor

Sheesh... you say we shouldn't bring real-life religion into the discusion, and then in the next paragraph you take an explicit swipe at all Christians. Hypocritical much?

Regarding the blademaster issue. In the Galad-Valda fight, I don't think Galad came off as weak. Or rather, I think it was intentional. In a fight between two blademasters, anything can happen. They are both incredibly skilled. Galad could have done more to prevent injury to himself, but it very well could have resulted in his death.

Instead he crafted an ingenious strategy to lure Valda into a trap, that would greatly increase his chances of ultimate victory. Galad was obviously the better blademaster.
John Mann
85. jcmnyu
@ 10 lmelior

I had the same thought while reading the summary.

Here is my list of reunions/scenes/meetings in no particular order:

Rand-Tam (Obviously)
Rand-Mat-Perrin (Rainbow Connection resolution)
Rand-Galad (Bromance?)
Galad-Berelain (Wouldn't it be funny if they had ugly kids?)
Rand-Fain (Just end it once and for all)
Lan-Slayer (You've been a bad boy)
Moiraine-Thom (Missed ya)
Rand-Moridin (You've got something in your eyes)
Siuan-Elaida (Miss me?)
Egwene-Alviarin (You have toh)
Rand-Gawyn (For the last time, I didn't kill your Mom)
Elayne-Morgaise (Wait, you did what?)
Rand-Demandred (Where have you been? I've been looking all over for you.)
Mat-Abell (So, a general and a prince, huh?)
Rand-Moiraine (Have I done well?)
Shadar Haran-Mat (Badass Death Match)
Egwene-Bran/Marin (You're grounded)
Mat-Bode (Mother's milk in a cup, I have a big head? You are Aes Sedai.)
Nynaeve-Dalmer Flynn (No, that is not how you heal someone who has been stilled.)
Dalmer Flynn-Siuan/Leane (Look, I'll show you.)
Verin-Moiraine-Cadusane (The Battle of Wills)
Rand-Tuon (You swear fealty. No you swear fealty.)
Faile-Elayne (What the hell have you been doing in the West of my country?)
Rand-Taim (You got a minute?)
Maiane Bakroeva
86. Isilel
I imagine that Luc was supposed to provide the requisite "Dragon's blood on the stones", but depending on how much Isam's possession has messed things up, Galad may have to take his place.

Re: Valda, not all blademasters are equal. Also, Rand is the strongest ta'veren ever, so more than just his skill is in play when his life is threatened.

Re: Galad escaping without a scratch - he fought rabble in this scene, whereas Lan's assassins in the New Spring were trained Borderland fighters. His DF childhood buddy was phenomenal, but he wasn't even officially a blademaster, IIRC.
87. kab1
In reference to post 64-
could someone list all the people that are (blood) related to Rand?
Galad as half-brother, Elayne and Gawyn as distant (basically unrelated cousins) and Mo as his (great?) aunt. There are his twins with Elayne and of course his love for Elayne, Min and Avienhdra make them family. Who are the others that make up his large family? by blood I mean.

@64. or do you mean his large family because every character (Mat, Perrin, Lan, Loial, Nyn, etc.) cares for him and is tied to him in some way?

Also I'm a little hazy on the Mo connection- can explain this or point me to a FAQ. I can never quite keep the Andoran- Cairhairen marriage and subsequent children straight.
88. kab1
Ah, Luc, I had already forgotten him!
John Mann
89. jcmnyu
@21 Drew Holton

If I was going to bet on who would win a duel, here are my rankings up to the end of Book 5:

1. Mat (defeated Couladin, Galad, Gawyn, and many fades)
2. Galad (style and substance)
3. Lan (skill and experience)
4. Rand
5. Gawyn (killed Hammar and Coulin)
6. Rhuarc (Aiel mostly on reputation)
7. Bael
8. Gaul
9. Perrin (When wolf instincts take over, pretty imposing)
10. Han
Michael Thompson
90. TrollocBait
Re Galad not getting a scratch on him in the mob fight. I think everyone is forgetting that Galad is the most attractive male ever to grace the face of Randland. All of the people he was fighting were awestruck and amazed at the grace and beauty that is Galadedrid Damodred. So as they were just standing there staring, he was using his new turbo Ginsu to great effect.
James Jones
91. jamesedjones
85 jcmnyu

Nice, but you need one tweak.
Rand-Taim (Can I see you in my office?)
John Mann
92. jcmnyu
@91 Jamesedjones

That is exactly what I was looking for. The boss pulling you in for a "talk". I just couldn't come up with the right phrase.
Vincent Lane
93. Aegnor

I lik your list, except
Egwene-Alviarin (You have toh)

They've already had a meeting in KoD, and not much happened as Egwene doesn't know she's Black Ajah. In fact, I think the last chapter we see Egwene in, included a meeting between Egwene and Alviarin. Now when/if Egwene finds out, that could be interesting.
94. JennB
I believe that Rand is only related by blood to Galad who is his half brother and Luc who is his uncle.

While Galad is related to Moraine on his father's side, Rand has no blood connection to her.

His relation to Elayne and Gawayn is so distant that it would not even be recognized by us peasants.
Jason Lyman
95. jlyman
I apologize for arriving late. But I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts as I skimmed through most of the comments.

@27. The Ninth Horse

As to Galad's sword skill, I just would like to add that you are seeing the fights from two different points of view as well. I have been in the martial arts for several years and I know that when I am doing a self-defense technique in front of several people I am concious of all the mistakes I make, all the adjustments I have to make and all the things that just don't go as they should. But if you talk to any of the people who were watching? They all say that I moved more smoothly and quickly than they could beleive. I think we run into the same thing here. The fight against the rioters is through the eyes of a "bystnader" while the fight with Valda is through Galad's own eyes. Each view is tainted by the viewer's own knowledge and understanding. The only thing that says it was any easier against the rioters is that Galad comes away unscathed.

@48. subwoofer

Pretty sweet pic

@62. HurinSmells

I think the most recent example of religious "craziness" being accepted by a large number of people is Scientology.

So I guess we'll see Masema on the local cable show jumping on the furniture...? :-)

@90. TrollocBait


I think that the best reunion we will see coming up is: Barid Bel Medar and Lews Therin Telamon. :-)
96. Noren
@85 jcmnyu
Shadar Haran-Mat?
No.Hell no.What did Mat ever do to you?The Hand of the Dark is way,WAY outta Mat's league.

Luc is Rand's uncle,which connects him to Lan via Isam.Lan is connected to Moiraine via Luc as well.Luc/Isam killed Janduin,Rand's bio father.Galad is Rand's half brother.Morgase,Galad's stepmother,is Elayne's mother.Elayne's brother Gawyn is in love with Rand's ex.And that's just off the top of my head.

Honestly,sometiimes Randland jsut seems like one big dysfunctional family soap opera.You know,the Bold and the Beautiful type.
Rich Bennett
97. Neuralnet
one thing that is never really described in any of the fights between blademasters is the strength and reach of each opponent. They may both be blade masters but if one is a 7 foot tall heavy weight he will have a slight advantage even if the combatants are of equal skill.
John Mann
98. jcmnyu
@96 Noren

I'll make the argument that Shadar Haran is way out of the league of the channelers because he appears to able to cut them off from the source. Mat obviously isn't susceptible to that, so he would be just fighting. We haven't seen SH fight yet, so it is all conjecture. I think Mat would be at least competitive. And since I would rank Mat #1 in duels, I would like to see it. I'd also like Mat to win.
Vincent Lane
99. Aegnor
An easy way to understand how Rand and Elayne/Gawyn are related, is think of it in today's terms.

Tigraine and Taringail get married and have a child called Galad.

Tigraine and Taringail then get divorced.

Tigraine then marries a guy named Janduin. They have a kid named Rand. Rand and Galad are half brothers.

Taringail marries a girl named Morgase.

Taringail and Morgase have a child named Gawyn and another named Elayne. They have a half brother in Galad. But are both completely unrelated to Rand.

Except...that's not entirely true, as Way far back they have the same ancestor. But it is far enough back that they certainly wouldn't be related today.
Jason Lyman
100. jlyman
@97. Neuralnet

I actually think that that is one of the better things about Jordan's writing. One of my sons likes to write stories and it is usually quite amusing to read them. He is so involved in all the details of how many inches long things are, how many mph they are traveling, etc. that, other than a few phrases of dialogue, the story itself never really gets told.

The fact that Jordan doesn't get bogged down in the details of height, weight, reach, etc. of each combatant helps the story flow and allows the reader to use his/her imagination. I seem to remember someone here saying that that is the reason for the sword forms... so he wouldn't have to describe blow by blow what was happening. It allows us as the observer to create the movements in our own minds.
Tess Laird
101. thewindrose
I am waiting for the Rand and Elayne reunion - he is not aware of Elayne's condition. "Umm, Elayne is there something different about you?"
And the Elayne and Morgase reunion. "What in the Light were you up to Elayne?" Followed by the Rand and Morgase meeting. "What in the light have you done to my daughter. Mother's milk in a cup!"

Also about the twins - some have speculated that they are the fortold twins that are born at the end of every age.
This certainly doesn't clear the matter up but from RJ Dragoncon 05:
Q101 – Part 1: Are Calian and Shiva born at the end of every Age?

RJ: Yes.

Q102 – Part 2: Are they already born?

Tess Laird
102. thewindrose

And since I would rank Mat #1 in duels, I would like to see it. I'd also like Mat to win.

It's good to know you are on the side of Light:)
103. MasterAlThor

Your opinions on my beliefs are moot. The post was directly to latecomer.

As liberals like to say "if you don't like it, don't read it'.


No offense taken. I see your point. Just wanted to correct you about Moses.
104. JennB
The twins born at the end of every age? I have never heard this. What does it refer to?
Tess Laird
105. thewindrose
JennB - The twins are tied to the Horn, but are spun out at the end of each age to Herald the next age.
Elayne is pregnant with twins, and so the speculation comes from that.

Edit: I should also add that Min has a view "She'll get with child from this. Two of them; a boy and a girl; both healthy and strong."

And Shivan the Hunter is a boy and Calian the Chooser is a girl.
Andrew Lovsness
106. drewlovs
I'm late to the party, and have only read the first 25 or so comments (nothing really to add to Leigh's original commentary), and I have to ask Pete: Do you really hate Nynaeve so much?

I am amazed at all the evidence you have come up with to demonize her, while being extremely unsympathetic to the situation she was in. I look at her decisions the same way Matt looked at "escaping" Rand... every small moved seems so innocent, so neccesary. And yet, when taken as a whole, we see that it led to disaster. Well, for Nynaeve... for Matt, it led to coolness.

When I judge the characters, I throw out all the inner monologes, since in real life I would have no way of knowing them; in a psychology class, I was told by my professor that most humans think about themselves 98% of the time... the true humanitarians only 90%. Judging people on what they are thinking, especially when comparing them to someone who's inner monologe we don't get to see is unfair.

Nothing Nynaeve did when getting to the boat scene seemed wrong to me; I thought she was doing a good job thinking ahead. But then, her opinions of men do not get under my skin, I think they are funny more than anything else.
Christa Warden
107. grnidgrl
@ the twins comment...

Okay so I am probably the only one that hasn't read it but is this story from the BBoBA?
108. MasterAlThor
jemnyu @85

roflmao, great list...please explain the Eg/Alv connection. Great now I have Rainbow Connection stuck in my head.

Gonna have to watch the movie with kids. Thanks!
Tess Laird
109. thewindrose
Also at jcmnyu - what if Berelain and Galad had Gadal Cain for a child?

Edit - I know, he has already been spun out - just going with the joke.
James Jones
110. jamesedjones
107 grnidgrl

Nope. They are two of the heros that Rand recognizes when Mat blows his own horn in tGH.
John Mann
111. jcmnyu
@108 MasterAlThor

At some point, Alviarin is going to be caught (at least I hope) and I believe it will be after the Tower split is resolved. So, my guess is that the meeting of the two of them will when Alviarin is the first Black Ajah to be tried and sentenced by Egwene.

@109 thewindrose

At least that ugly.
Kelly Lysaught
112. kcl3935
OK, this has always driven me crazy during this section, when Birgitte finaly wakes up after being tossesd out of TAR and Elayne explains that she bonded her warder Birgitte says

"You saved my life, Daughter-Heir of Andor. I will keep your secret and serve you as Warder. And be your friend, if you will have me."

How did Birgitte lose that information???
Tess Laird
113. thewindrose
kcl3935 - I think Birgitte comes to the conclusion that Elayne was lying about that. Why would the Daughter-Heir of Andor be doing what she is - tight rope walking and also allowing herself to be dressed the way she is. She had already been lying about being a Sister so IMO Birgette just took it a step further. She is truly surprised when she does find out later on that Elayne is the Daughter-Heir.
114. J.Dauro
kcl3935 @ 112

from the Encyclopedia WOT

In early printings Birgitte refers to Elayne as "Daughter-Heir of Andor." This was a mistake, as Birgitte later does not believe Elayne when she claims to be the Daughter-Heir in TFoH,Ch47. In later printings Birgitte simply calls her "Elayne."
115. MasterAlThor
just a question, what is BBoBA....Big Book of Bad Acts???
James Jones
116. jamesedjones
115 MasterAlThor

"The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time"

Also known as the "Big Book of Bad Art". If you've seen it, you'll understand. The pictures are terrible.
Pete Pratt
117. PeteP
Drewloves @ 108. No, I do not hate Nynaeve. I actually like her a bit these days. But RJ wrote in a way to demonstrate much of the foibles and errors of her sex.

She always tries to justify her actions and rationalize the bad results from her poor decisions. Rarely does she ever admit responsibility.

Only with Birgitte (and getting married) does she start to realize that she has not always made the best choice.

I think that the main reason she couldn't overcome her block until death had her, was that she could not be honest with herself.

What really gets me is that throughout the WoT, Galad is really set up by Elayne as someone who is bad because he does good. With KoD, we finally had a Galad PoV. Doing a re-read of the whole series after that, I really felt bad for my hostile feelings toward Galad which are all set up by lies.

Nyn blaming Galad for her own failings really annoys me. But I understand her better after 14 of marriage to my wife. She does provide some of the best comic relief of the series. And the Golden Crane gets me every time I read it.

Of the good guy characters, the only one that really bothers me is Egwene, because she is the most dishonest of the bunch. Her treatment of Rand is horrible. Even her actions toward Nynaeve really get me mad.

All Aes Sedai are liars -- their oath actually makes then better liars because they can not lie outright. Egwene is so Aes Sedai that she really is a master of self-deception.
Marcus W
118. toryx
I've always known what BBoBA referred to but I still can't help but see it as "Big Book of Black Ajah" every single time someone uses it.

And yeah, the art truly is awful. In comparison to that, the book covers are splendid.
119. Latecomer
jamesdjones, masteralthor, shintemaster - thanks for your responses, I hope I have cleared my position up.

Re the twins - Shivan and Calian - this is the first I am registering them too, after 3 re-reads and countless hours of reading/ lurking the WOT FAQs and forums. And this is what I love about RJ's writing - there is always a new nugget of gold somewhere to be found. Although he is lucky to have dedicated (read obsessed) readers like us looking for gold in the same spots over and over and over..... :)

Once you guys have decided on the #1 blademaster let me know - and I'll send Mat along to show 'em what fighting is all about :)
Vincent Lane
120. Aegnor
Yeah, I recently got "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" and read it. Some interesting stuff there, but yes the art is truly horrible. Mainly it is the people that are horribly drawn. I'm not sure who did the portraits, but they are just hideous. They seriously could have hired some high school artist for $6 an hour and got much better quality.
Vincent Lane
121. Aegnor
I'd never heard of Shivan and Calian either. At least if I did, I don't remember it. I wonder if Shivan is related in some way to the Hindu god Shiva. Calian is the English version of the name Kalyan, which is a city near Mumbai in India. That leads me to believe there is some connection.

Edit: Ah, its Kali another Hindu goddess.
122. alreadymadwithbirgitte
kcl3935 @112
Re: Birgitte forgetting about Elayne being Daughter-Heir

She could have stopped believing it. On the other hand, it's established by KoD that she's actually losing some of her memories since being ripped out of TAR.
Claire Edwards
123. ClaireBelle
Pete P @ 117 - "RJ wrote her in a way to demonstrate much of the foibles and errors of her sex"

Seriously?! So according to you all women are compulsively dishonest?
John Massey
124. subwoofer
@123 There's this show called Desperate Housewives... ducks for cover in the bunker Lan cleaned out.

um saying all women would be a very broad generalization;)

No idea where Peter P was coming from but I just had to have some fun. Weeee.

Please don't hurt me....
Anthony Pero
125. anthonypero
I would just like to point out that this entire thread, and the thousands and thousands like it over the last 10 years stand as a harbinger and tribute to how incredibly awesome Robert Jordan was at characterization. By awesome I mean awe-inspiring.

We sit and argue about whose fault this riot was, and there are as many opinions as there are posters. We believe in the reality of these characters and their choices in a way I've never seen in fiction. They are completely three dimensional. Even someone like Galad, who is a very minor character in the scheme of things, can inspire admiration from some and contempt from others in a single scene; because he's a real person to us, who engenders very real emotions. Rarely in the course of 8000 pages of story do characters act randomly out of left field, and when they do, there's generally some sort of Ta'veren explaination for it, and it makes perfect sense to us.

Brandon Sanderson must have been insane to say yes to Harriet, lol. Of course, it would have been insane to say no, as well. I love his books, his plotting, and I find his characters extremely interesting... but what RJ does with character is at a completely different level. People aren't going to disagree very much on Kelsier's motivation in Mistborn.
126. Latecomer
Agenor @121

You raise a very interesting point. If indeed the basis of the twins are Shiva and Kali then it makes perfect sense to link them to the end of an age as they are both representative of destruction (just male and femal representations). Do we get any descriptions of them at all?

ClaireBelle @ 123 - I thought something similar but didn't want to say anything, since I already have one contentious post in this thread. But yeah, 14 years of marriage to someone who is very like Nyn? Does that make Pete a "Lan" type man :)
I did think that entire post 117 - Pete seemed a bit "woman-bashing", maybe its just how it come across there...

AnthonyPero@125 - I hear ya!
Vincent Lane
127. Aegnor

Here is some key points from the wiki page about Kali:

"Despite her negative connotations, she is today considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence."

"Kali is represented as the consort of god Shiva, on whose body she is often seen standing."

It makes perfect sense that there would be a dual view of Calian. Harbinger of destruction, or goddess of time and change. The old age is destroyed to make way for the new one.

Pretty cool symbolism that I missed before.
craig thrift
128. gagecreedlives

Good pick up. Ive never noticed that either.


Sorry. But to try and make it up to you, imagine Lan, Nyn, Luca and Latelle in a circus tent. Now imagine them all chasing Luca around the tent. Now imagine it all set to the Benny Hill music.


“I would pay to see that”

Granted I don’t really have a lot of knowledge about the publishing industry but I think that’s the idea :)


If Mat can go toe to toe with a Gholam he can beat an overly tall fade.
John Massey
129. subwoofer
'K @85jcmnyu- interesting.

I'd amend the Lan-Slayer reunion- Lan- What's that over there? A can of Whoop A$$. Here let me open it on you.

Maybe everyone should meet in the ring and have a battle royal. Winner takes all. Somebody could toss in a chair.

Al Pacino said it best. On any given Sunday anybody can win. That is why they play the game. Also applies to who is the best. Maybe Valda or Hammar were the best, they just had a bad day. I like Mat but it all reminds me of the old saw... Who would win- Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan? How about Roy Jones Jr.?

Doesn't matter- they can't beat a guy who can twitch his finger- What does that twitch represent? A guy pressing a trigger. In our age for a gun, back when, for a cross bow. For winning, hand or no you gotta go with Rand- he can turn the rest into turnips. For skill- Lan- Everyone else is padawan to Lan's Jedi master skills.

Just sayin'.
Pete Pratt
130. PeteP
No women bashing here (and I don'see it re-reading the post). I love 'em, especially my wife. and I never said "all", merely that RJ wanted to make a few points about some women using Nynaeve.

RJ said in an interview long ago that he based all the main female characters on some aspect of his wife, to which I thought he must have some wife.

One RJ's major points was that the sexes must work together, and that working separately causes all sorts of problems.

I do find that many women think that men need fixing. Most men like themselves just as they are. Years ago, I discussed this point with my best friend's mother. Her response was priceless "I just want to influence as many men as I can."

I have also found that many women can rarely admit to their own faults. Not that many men don't have the same problem, but we know we are lazy slackers, and like it that way, just like Mat.

RJ wanted to use a sledgehammer on this point with Nynaeve. So many chapters are spent on Nynaeve and her issues, not all of which are merely for comic relief.

I worked for many years as an attorney doing family law among other things, doing about 1,000 or so divorce cases, representing men and women. Seen a whole lot of situations, analyzed a lot of failed relationships. Makes me a bit jaded about men and women. I am sure glad I stopped doing that....

As for me, one of wife's best qualities is that she is very stubborn, as well as beautiful, intelligent, and fun. So, yes, Nynaeve may in fact be similar to my wife in many ways (in the good ways). I never thought about it before.

Now, I have long (since before tSR came out) thought that the Oath about lying actually made people trust Aes Sedai less, not more. Everyone in Randland knows that Aes Sedai can twist words, so that what you think you hear is not what they meant. Nobody really trusts them.
Joseph Blaidd
131. SteelBlaidd
Maybe everyone should meet in the ring and have a battle royal. Winner takes all. Somebody could toss in a chair.

Yes!!!!!! Ultimate Showdown

Images are from one of the best web comics ever. It inspires the same kind of character and plot discussion as WoT.
Julian Augustus
132. Alisonwonderland
Do whitecloaks marry? I can't recall if any of the ones we've met has a wife. We know Geoff Bornhald has a son, Dain, but we never learn if Dain's mother is alive and still married to Geoff. The whitecloak life most definitely does not lend itself to going home to the wife after a hard day's work.

Where am I going with this? It presents some interesting possibilities for Galad's prophesied hookup with Berelain. Here are the possible paths for the story:

1. Galad doesn't fall in love with Berelain as much as she does with him, and tells her to piss off. Not very likely.

2. Galad and Berelain fall in love, but he can't marry her, so he does the noble Lan act and tells her to forget him. Likely? Somewhat.

3. Galad and Berelain fall in love, but he can't marry her, so they live in sin. Least likely, considering the society they live in and Galad's own do-the-right-thing nature.

4. Galad and Berelain fall in love, but he can't marry her and remain in the whitecloaks, so he resigns as LCC. I vote for this one!
Hurin Smells
133. HurinSmells
I agree, there's no doubt that the central theme of WoT is "bad things happen when there's no balance between the sexes". I think RJ's depiction of women can go a little too far in some cases, although never beyond the realms of believability. At least he's balanced the type A's with some cool chicks like Min and Birgette.

I also used to think the Oath about lying was a negative, but I think it's pointed out the Eg in CoT, maybe WH, that at least everyone knows when an AS says something outright without mincing words people know she's telling the truth. It's unfortunate that most of the time AS don't speak this way, but it's a good fall back when necessary.
John Massey
134. subwoofer
Yes, let's revisit the oaths- I feel that at some point WoT readers have to either:

A. Trust that the Oaths work and that anybody outright lying is BA.

B. The Oaths don't work and are as useful as tits on a bull, which is what all the AS are spewing.

I think it was Eg and Suian who were clamoring to get their hands on the Oath Rod so they could swear right away. There is a level of trust with the Oaths that straight out they cannot lie. Also there is the no nuking innocent bystanders unless attacked yourself. I like the Oaths. Regardless of whatever, there are some women who have a way of manipulating the truth. Without power or oaths. Maybe if RJ was modeling a character after his wife, this was catharsis for him.

At some point you either have to trust people and believe what they say or trust no one and be skeptical of everything.

Maybe the question should be who would want to marry a Child of the Light?

Edit- not a big fan of the term White Cloak. Makes me uncomfortable. Put a hood on them and you have KKK and a grand wizard floating around. Gives balance though. There is the Black Ajah who are baddies and there are the WC- who are not as a rule bad- the organization was started to hunt out Dark Friends- but went fanatical. And the ultimate dark friends, the Forsaken.

And the Children fight the Prophet- who is supposed to speak for the Dragon- but went fanatical.
135. birgit
Masema and the Dragonrabble (90's death metal group, iirc) have been causing trouble since tGH, or thereabouts.

Moiraine sent the Shienarans away at the beginning of tDR. Masema started preaching when they found out that the woman Moiraine sent them to was dead.

The thing that really burns me is the people bringing knives to a sword fight.

Thom throws knives, but even he should run out of knifes when he is fighting a crowd.

Also I'm a little hazy on the Mo connection- can explain this or point me to a FAQ. I can never quite keep the Andoran- Cairhairen marriage and subsequent children straight.

There is a family tree on Dragonmount:
Michael Catapano
136. hoping
Dragonsworn were causing trouble on the Almoth Plain in the first chapters of tDR, presumably right after Falme and during the winter between tGH and tDR. Rand and Moraine argued about whether he should go and assist them. Masema left for parts unknown at the beginning of tDR, as you said, but was a fervent dragon believer in the winter camp.
But the dragonsworn were killing and fighting, probably close to the onset of the falme vision.

re the 'twins'

This quote is from aCoS (C21) and is Mat's musings when he sees Birgitte and recognizes who she is from his recollections of Falme after blowing the horn.

Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.

I couldn't find a reference stating that they were twins. Anyone have that?
Michael Catapano
137. hoping

I don't want to get too much into weapon arcs but here's the thing. Shienarans are horsemen. They carry their broadswords on their backs because they are so long. Long, heavy, takes two hands to wield and has a long swing and recovery. A heron marked blade Rand, Lan, or one like Galad's has a much smaller arc and can be swung quicker with more recovery and chance to parry. Less tip velocity and momentum. Just as quick though.

I know little about weapons IRL but how can the Shienarans wield a broadsword from the back of the horse. They must have dismounted broadsword training and should have handled themselves in the mob pretty well. Do they have another weapon when on horseback, such as a polearm of some sort?

equestri-cide lol
John Massey
138. subwoofer
@Hoping... er yes,
Backswords were often the secondary weapons of European-style cavalrymen beginning in the late 16th, early 17th centuries. The weapon's name was possibly derived from the practice of slinging the weapon in a scabbard behind the trooper's back while riding in order to prevent it from clanging against his or the horse’s side as they galloped.

Also remember, Shienarans were fighting Trollocs, not typical human infantry so weapons and tactics must change. In my minds eye I see some serious arcs while fighting the beasties. IIRC when Gareth Bryne employed the Shienarans as heavy calvary, he equipped them with lances. And in the chapters we just went over Ny does make comments as to how wide Uno is when he is in the cabin with her- something about if you give men a chance to loom the argument is already half won...

edit- 'K that came out wrong- swords are heavy and would probably put them off balance so thinking that was for after the fact of the initial charge.

Up at the crack of dawn with the goats I see. Good morning:)
Michael Catapano
140. hoping
thanks for the info
the goats usually expect some attention around 6. They were quite unhappy that I had to clear up some WOT issues first. ;)
(They have some bones to pick with RJ about his goat epithets, but I give them grain and they are fine.)
Pete Pratt
141. PeteP
Hurinsmells @ 130. I completely agree that RJ went out of his way to demonstrate (in a totally exaggerated way) certain aspects of women.

But RJ also set up a world where the most powerful people were women without true male equals. He wanted to turn so many things on their heads (like having Nordic Aiel living in the desert).

As to the Oaths -- the Oath Rod was rediscovered during the Trolloc Wars. At the same time, Ishy started up his Black Ajah.

The Three Oaths put AS at distinct disadvantage in doing their jobs (when trying to do something good). Example: Dumai Wells -- AS have to go into the very middle of battle to fight.

Or having to all master the art of lying better than Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon so that nobody trusts you unless you speak super plainly. Again, nobody trusts the Aes Sedai because they know that they find away around this oath. This Oath transforms the Aes Sedai into used car salesman.

Given the timeline connection between the Oath Rod and the Black Ajah, I think Ishy had his Black Ajah "discover" the Oath Rod. That way he could hurt the Aes Sedai (giving them limitations, shortening life span, etc), all the while giving his own BA their new "Oaths", so they could remain hidden in the middle of the rest of the Aes Sedai. We do not know the BA Oaths (which I found very odd that they did not find that out during the investigation in the WT), but we know one is to not disclose anything about the BA (The first rule of BA is you do talk about the BA).

The Oaths are a severe liability. They limit the Aes Sedai. It makes almost all Aes Sedai into virtual Oathbreakers (since they all use the One Power to hit other people, etc.).

The Wise Ones exist inside their society without Oaths. The Kin seem to do pretty well obeying their Rule without the Oath Rod. The Windfinders work inside their culture, obeying non-channelers, without the Oath Rod.

Do the Aes Sedai really need it? Can women channelers not be trusted without binding them like criminals? Especially when male channelers will not be so bound? Sounds pretty sexist.
Asger Grunnet
142. asgerix
Am I the only one who noticed that Leigh wrote "Chapter 49" instead of "Chapter 48"?

Since we all know that Leigh does not make mistakes like that, I can only assume that this is a hint at some profound insight she has had. ;-)
John Massey
143. subwoofer
@PeterP- the Wise Ones are different. They, like the rest of the Aiel, live by Ji'e'toh. They do not believe in lying or spying. AS like the BA or others who don't take the Oaths are not bound by the same thing.
John Massey
144. subwoofer
Windfinders also have some kind of code to bind them.

I don't think that the AS need it, just in WoT it is the way that others trust AS. The men are not bound, they may be in the future, but for all intents and purposes most males were killed or gentled if they could channel.
145. alreadymadwithuntrueoaths
Alisonwonderland @132

PeteP @141
Aes Sedai did NOT have to wade into the battle of Dumai's Wells to actually use the Power. They just used it as an excuse so they could get to Rand ahead of everybody else.

Also, given the Oaths, and Aes Sedai inclination to dodge them, that makes them a bunch of implicit liars. Always committing lies of omission, which is probably worse than outright lies.
Tess Laird
147. thewindrose
What about wise one dream walkers - they had no problem watching Rands dreams until he wards them? I consider that spying. Did they only do that with Rand, or do they do it to others as well?
148. kab1
these rereads and comments are great, very addicting...

@135 thanks so much for the tree!

So Mo is Elayne's (half) aunt. Do they ever mention that themselves? Obviously they both would know. When were they together- just after Falme?

Does anyone know who was Tigraine and Luc's father?
149. normalphil
Something that got left out of the recap pretty much clears Galad of "starting a war to get a boat" culpability.

That being, he found the boat first, and paid the captain for Elayne's and Nynaeve's passage in advance. Then he left two men to watch the boat to make sure the captain didn't just up and leave with his money before the girls got on board.

A little while later one of the men he'd left returns wounded, saying that the other guy is dead and the Prophet has the ship.

Galad doubles down and takes the ship back from the mob. Then he holds it in the face of everything that gets thrown at him.

That always struck me as an awesome feat of brotherlyness. "I don't know why all hell is breaking loose on me and why an entire nation has spontaneously decided to kill me and all my men, but I'm holding this ship until I can get my sister on it and out of this hellpit"-brotherly awesome.
150. MasterAlThor
Someone did this already but I was hoping that they could do it again or point me in the right direction. What are the races of Randland and Seanchan?

This I know some of the black characters

Tylee Khirgan

I am quite sure about those characters.
151. CalaLily
Question re: LTT in Rand's head:

If he is real, why isn't he speaking the Old Tongue?

Just a question. xD Could support the whole "He made him up" argument, though.


In Seanchan, skin color doesn't really seem to be limited to certain areas. Since the entire continent is essentially one country, I imagine that people of different "races" move freely about within it's borders. They aren't tied to countries, after all, just the Empress, so the only nationality they know is Seanchan. There are those of the Blood who are black, and then those who are white-as-snow with blonde hair. I believe, in the scene where Mat watches Seanchan immigrants disembark from the ships in Ebou Dar, he remarks that some of them could have come from Andor while others are extremely "exotic" looking, with dark skin, more Asian appearances and differing heights that aren't really seen commonly in Randland. It makes sense, though, considering Seanchan takes up an entire continent and the different "races" within it.

In Randland, the skin colors seem more built around European countries, with some, such as Altara and Shienar, that have Arabic and Asian influences. Tear is Spanish, with a more Asian influence on those who aren't nobility, Borderlands are decidedly Asian; Murandy, Andor and Cairhien are western European, and those along the coastline seem a mix of meditteranean and Arabic.

hopin @ 137

I seem to recall discussion of the Shienarans dissing the Two Rivers longbow because it couldn't be used on horseback, while their shorter bows could. So, they have bows, swords, probably pretty good-sized hunting knives and the like.


They probably saw it as their duty, since he's going to destroy most of their population. All anyone has to do, really, to skirt around their "code of conduct" is justify it to themselves, make it worth whatever cost they know they are going to pay.

I don't know, I'm kind of iffy on the Oaths. While I understand the whole argument that it makes them even more untrustworthy, if you demanded an Aes Sedai tell you flat out that something is or isn't, and they did, you would believe them. Like when the Sitters in the Tower all retook the Oath against lying and said flat out they weren't Darkfriends or Black Ajah.
Pete Pratt
152. PeteP
Eg goes 180 on the Oaths. Why? Siuan did not convince her of it. This 180 happened after Halima started giving her the massages.

Coincidence? I think not. Moridin has been supporting the Oath Rod for over 2,000 years. The idea of unbound Aes Sedai must make him very unhappy.
Joseph Blaidd
153. SteelBlaidd
Unlike the other Groups Aes Sedai are extremely individualistic the oaths being one of very few things that holds them together as a group.

Regarding knives vs. Swords: the most dangerous part of a sword is the last six inches which means if you can get inside a swordsman's reach with a shorter weapon you win. Consider Rand killing Kinsman in Far Mading. If you are working in narrow streets the Knife man has even more of an advantage.
John Massey
154. subwoofer
Ha Ha! A new post is up- so until some chucklehead who is a lurker and not a poster comes along- I have the FINAL WORD.

@SteelBlaidd- deal! When we meet at the next Jordancon, you can have a knife, I'll be the one with a sword. A person has to be really good with a knife to parry a sword. Even in the confines of an alley there is still a significant reach advantage. There are still thrusts and vertical slashes that are very effective with a sword. For a knife you can hold it heaven or earth, but the reach is still the effective blade length. You can throw a knife, but if you miss, then what. Use harsh language? I dunno, give me a sword any day.
156. Aye Aye Sedai
Thhpt _

Still no discussion of whether a hooded or blinded AS can channel?

John Massey
157. subwoofer
Perfect- you guys should be doing stand up :P

edit- gnghphgrrr- I will let thewindrose have the last word as I have a healthy respect for blindfolded channelers... but- the last word
Tess Laird
159. thewindrose
I will meet you and SteelBlaidd at the next JordenCon and I will use the OP hooded and blindfolded.

Andrew Lovsness
160. drewlovs
156. Aye Aye Sedai

Still no discussion of whether a hooded or blinded AS can channel?

Rand was able to channel in the box he was held in. I doubt he had a flashlight like Beatrice Kiddo did...
163. Lightbringer
@22. Porcelina.

I kindly ask you to read up properly and correctly on the life of the Prophet Muhammad rather than state things without knowledge.
It is a smarter thing to take knowledge from those who actually know about him and not what some historians have "read" or "decided" was true. Personally, I recommend the late Ahmad Deedat, and any of his works as a beginner (for example, his work Muhammad the Greatest). You can find alot of his works on the internet with ease.
Thank you,
Kind regards.
164. alreadymadwithprophets
Lightbringer @163
Hero-worship tends to bring out the best (founded or not) about a man.
165. wishiwasMat
Not sure if this is mentioned in previous comments, can't be bothered reading them all, but shouldn't Galad have recognised Thom here? He is considerably older then Elayne & she remembers, even if it does take some time.
Jonathan Levy
166. JonathanLevy
Interesting idea, wishiwasMat, but I think it's also reasonable that he didn't recognize him. It's been 15 years, and we don't know how much attention Thom paid to Galad to begin with. Also, he looks very different now, is dressed differently, and is in a different context. It's not easy to recognize someone you didn't know so well and haven't seen in a long time, when you suddenly stumble upon him in a different context, and with distractions.

So yeah, he could have recognized him, but he could easily have missed it.

But kudos for the idea - it never occurred to me that he might have.
Stefan Mitev
167. Bergmaniac
In an earlier chapter when they first met Galad, Elayne asked Thom whether Galad recognised him and he said “No. Fifteen years changes a man more than it does a boy." Which is totally reasonable given the circumstanes. Elayne recognising Thom despite being her being only about 2-3 years old when he left Caemlyn is what is really stretching plausibility.

It's also possible that Thom looked familiar to Galad here, but it wasn't really the time for chatting about that, with the riots and all.
Tess Laird
168. thewindrose
ActuallyI think when Thom saw Galad he was like - Word Up;)
Alice Arneson
169. Wetlandernw
FWIW, as a toddler Elayne may well have been in her mother's presence at the same time as Thom in a much different way than an 8- or 10-year-old boy would have. Recall that she remembers sitting on his lap playing with his moustaches - hardly a thing Galad would have done. Galad would have been less interested in his mother's court bard than in her general and his swordmasters; in addition, he would have been in the midst of his education. Elayne would have spent far more time with Thom and would have had far fewer distractions or other interests.
170. chaplainchris1
It's entirely reasonable that Elayne recognized Thom...eventually. I'm sure Galad would have eventually too, if he'd spent days on end in his company at close quarters observing his mannerisms.
171. s'rEDIT
Arrrghhh! Where's that smiley tearing out handfuls of hair?
Arrrghhh! *runs screaming*
Arrrghhh, I say!

would of happened anyway . . .

Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system.

Leigh. I hope you've noticed how much we continue to enjoy your efforts, even two years later.

And I don't really have anything of substance or interest to add.

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