Jun 8 2009 2:41pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Fires of Heaven, Part 6

Greetings and salutations, people of! I come in peace, or at least only in mild feistiness, to bring you yet another installment of the Wheel of Time Re-read, with pretty pictures and everything.

Today we are covering Chapters 11-13 of The Fires of Heaven, in which things happen.

Previous entries are here, and spoilers abound for all currently published books in the Wheel of Time series, so bear that in mind if/as you read.

And I believe that satisfies the legalese portion of our show (and I am amused to note that the spellchecker does not have a problem with the word “legalese”), so without further ado, let’s get to the further ado.

Chapter 11: The Nine Horse Hitch

What Happens
Logain, Siuan, Leane, and Min enter the city of Lugard, and Siuan reflects on how easy it had been to convince Logain he was in charge, and a small enough price to pay, considering her plans for him. He chooses an inn called the Nine Horse Hitch, and Siuan sidles over to Leane and tells her that she should practice her wiles on “Dalyn” tonight, so that he will not notice Siuan is not there. Leane looks doubtful, but agrees; Min is sullen, but also goes along with it. Siuan heads out, walking past groups of roughly dressed men who shout suggestive invitations to the women on the street, and is surprised to realize some of them are aimed at her. She is not really angry, only startled. She looks at herself in a shop window and observes that she is not just young-appearing, but actually young, no more than a year or so older than Min.

An advantage to having been stilled, she told herself. She had met women who would pay any price to lose fifteen or twenty years; some might even consider her price a fair bargain. She often found herself listing such advantages, perhaps trying to convince herself they were real.

She thinks that she might even be somewhat better-looking now than she had been when she was really this age, though she thinks that merely “pretty” is still the best adjective that applies. She can’t really connect it with the image she still has of herself. The inn names in Lugard run toward the lewd, and the inn she enters has a name she skips over as soon as she recognizes it, with a picture of a woman on horseback wearing only her hair. Inside the inn is what you’d expect, and Siuan resolves to leave as soon as possible. She goes up to the innkeeper, Mistress Tharne, and tells her she wants a job singing. The woman laughs raucously and demands to see her legs.

“I can sing ‘The Song of the Three Fishes,” Siuan said loudly. This had to be the right woman. Surely two women in one city could not have hair like that, not and answer to the right name at the right inn.

The woman only laughs harder, and says to show her legs or get out; redfaced, Siuan slowly complies, and Tharne says they’ll have to get those stockings off to make sure, and hustles her in the back. Siuan can’t figure out why this woman, one of her most reliable eyes-and-ears from before she became Amyrlin, would be so vile, and she begins to tell her off as soon as they are alone, but Mistress Tharne snaps back that if she’d come at opening or closing like she was supposed to, she wouldn’t have had to put on that show for the patrons; she can’t afford to have anyone wondering about her. She threatens to thrash Siuan if she doesn’t keep a civil tongue, and demands to know what she wants. Siuan quivers with anger, but keeps it in check, realizing that the woman could easily best her in a physical fight, a thing Siuan is still getting used to. She tells Tharne that she has a message for those they serve, but they are not where she was told they’d be, and she was hoping the innkeeper knew. Tharne demands to know what is going on in the Tower first, and Siuan tells her evenly that Siuan Sanche has been stilled, and Elaida a’Roihan is now Amyrlin.

Mistress Tharne’s face showed no reaction. “Well, that explains some of the orders I’ve gotten. Some of them, maybe. Stilled her, did they? I thought she’d be Amyrlin forever. I saw her once, a few years ago in Caemlyn. At a distance. She looked like she could chew harness straps for breakfast.” Those impossible scarlet curls swung as she shook her head. “Well, done’s done. The Ajahs have split, haven’t they? Only thing that fits; my orders, and the old buzzard stilled. The Tower’s broken, and the Blues are running.”

Siuan grinds her teeth at “old buzzard”, but merely says that she must deliver the message as soon as possible. Finally the woman tells her that all she has is a name, and she doesn’t know what it means: “Sallie Daera”. Siuan hides her excitement and endeavors to appear dejected. Tharne tells her that if she does find them, to tell Aeldene Sedai that she is still loyal, and Siuan notes that she hadn’t known Aeldene was the one who replaced her in running the Blue’s eyes-and-ears. Mistress Tharne advises Siuan to climb down a rung or two in her manner, and then brings her back out to the common room, where she mocks Siuan loudly and lewdly until Siuan flees, red as a beet. Outside, she dismisses thoughts of revenge on the woman in favor of the information she’d given.

Not Sallie Daera; not a woman at all. Only a Blue would know, or even suspect. Salidar. Birthplace of Deane Aryman, the Blue sister who had become Amyrlin after Bonwhin and had rescued the Tower from the ruin Bonwhin had poised it for. Salidar. One of the last places anyone would look for Aes Sedai, short of Amadicia itself.

Two Whitecloaks ride by, and Siuan hides her face and shrinks back before she remembers it isn’t necessary, then curses herself for possibly drawing their attention. She heads back to the inn.

Min sits and watches the corner where Leane is holding court with half the men in the common room. She had nearly started a riot at one point, but had smoothed the waters as easily as she had roused them, and Min is a little envious, even though she would only want to do that to one man. She berates herself for thinking of changing just for a man, but can’t help considering it. She is interrupted by Siuan, who tells her they have to leave and go south, now. Min points out that they can’t reach anywhere with an inn by nightfall; Siuan admits that she may have attracted the attention of Whitecloaks, and Min doesn’t argue further.

“What is a Nine Horse Hitch, anyway?” she asked, getting to her feet. She had gone out front hoping for a hint, but the sign over the door bore only the name. “I have seen eight, and ten, but never nine.”

“In this town,” Siuan said primly, “it is better not to ask.” Sudden spots of color in her cheeks made Min think that she knew very well.

Min goes to get Leane, thinking maybe she would ask her for some tips after all.

Trust Siuan to have a countersign involving fish.

What is it with guys shouting at women on the street, anyway? I’m seriously asking, because I never saw the point of it. I mean, that doesn’t ever work, does it? So why bother? For the joy of getting a “fuck off” reaction? Tis a puzzlement!

I am firmly avoiding coming up with a lewd interpretation of “Nine Horse Hitch”, because it very swiftly goes into Brain Bleach territory. If you guys must run with it, I just ask that you try to at least nominally not turn this page into something that would come up on an equestrian porn search. (Eurgh.)

There’s not a whole else to say about this chapter, as it is pretty straightforward plot advancement, other than Siuan’s bemusement about being younger and prettier than she was. This may seem shallow or vain of her, but I don’t think it comes across that way in the text; she’s downright clinical about it, and I don’t doubt that she is actually correct. And like it or not, that does have an effect, not only on how you see yourself, but on how others see you. And well, we’ve seen that difference already, re: Bryne. Who’s in the next chapter; let’s go see what he is up to!

Chapter 12: An Old Pipe

What Happens
In Lugard, Gareth Bryne loses his hat under a wagon in the street and doesn’t care. He enters an inn called The Wagon Seat, whose sign gives the name “an explicit interpretation”, and motions Joni and Barim to leave. They retrieve their horses, and once they are away from Lugard, Barim tells Bryne that the three women were there yesterday, with a broad-shouldered fellow who sounds like the Dalyn who burned down Nem’s barn, but he hadn’t been able to find out which way they were going when they left. Joni had, though; he says they went west on the Jehannah road, and furthermore he talked to two merchant guards who were in an inn called The Good Night’s Ride, and saw the girl Mara come in and ask for a job singing, and didn’t get it because she wasn’t willing to show her legs. He adds that he doesn’t like it, and it sounds to him like Mara might be trying to get away from this Dalyn fellow.

Strangely, despite the lump on his head, Joni had no animosity toward the three young women. It was his opinion, often expressed since leaving the manor, that the girls were in some sort of predicament and needed to be rescued. Bryne suspected that if he did catch up to the young women and take them back to his estate, Joni would be after him to turn them over to Joni's daughters to mother.

Barim is not so enthusiastic, and doesn’t think it worth their time to go near Ghealdan or Altara or Amadicia to get them back; Bryne thinks again he is being a fool, especially as an Andorman chasing all over Murandy, where they are not well loved. Joni mentions casually that the guards he spoke to were two of many who had been let go from where they’d all used to serve, and are being replaced by troublemakers who call themselves the White Lions, and are only loyal to Gaebril. He adds Gaebril has ten times as many men as there are Guards, and they’re only sworn to the throne of Andor, not Morgase personally. Bryne tells him curtly that that’s not their business anymore, and tells Barim to spit out whatever he’s thinking about. Barim tells him that he’d heard that Whitecloaks had been asking around about a girl who sounds like Mara, and they’d got real interested when they heard she’d left. Bryne can’t imagine what Whitecloaks would want with Mara; he considers the notion that she is a Darkfriend, but then rejects it firmly, and takes off to where the rest of his men are bivouacked. He looks at them, and tells himself again he is a fool to get them involved in a wild goose chase; he should take them home, and leave Mara to Whitecloak justice.

“We will be heading west,” he announced, and immediately there was a scramble of dousing fires with the tea and fastening pots to saddles. “We will have to press hard. I mean to catch them in Altara, if I can, but if not, there’s no telling where they’ll lead us. You could see Jehannah or Amador or Ebou Dar before we’re done.” He affected a laugh. “You’ll find out how tough you are if we reach Ebou Dar. They’ve taverns there where the barmaids skin Illianers for dinner and spit Whitecloaks for sport.”

The men laugh, and one of them makes a joke about the Amyrlin that inevitably leads to mention of Morgase, at which the others shut him up. Bryne thinks if Morgase, who had once trusted him, had called him a traitor and looked at him like he was a stranger, that was reason enough for him to put the past in the past.

Hooking a knee around the high cantle of his saddle, he took out his pipe and pouch and filled his pipe with tabac. The bowl was carved with a wild bull collared with the Rose Crown of Andor. For a thousand years that had been the sign of House Bryne; strength and courage in service of the queen. He needed a new pipe; this one was old.

He tells the men the rest of the story about his meeting with the Amyrlin, about how she had dressed him down like a raw recruit, deliberately mentioning Morgase’s part in the tale. They laugh, and mount up, and Bryne thinks again that he will know why Mara broke her oath, even if he has to follow her to the Pit of Doom.

This again is plot movement; as far as character development goes it’s practically a repeat of the Bryne POV we got in the Prologue, though the symbolism with the pipe was nicely done.

This can probably be considered the point, psychologically at least, that Min’s viewing about a bull ripping roses from his neck is fulfilled. Although, after saying this I went and checked, and Min hasn’t even had that viewing yet. But still, I think it’s safe to say that this is where the process began, at any rate. I think the shiny new rose-and-bull icon here backs me up on that, too.


Chapter 13: A Small Room in Sienda

What Happens
As Elayne and Nynaeve travel in the coach across Amadicia, Elayne tries to ignore Nynaeve’s mock-solicitous inquiries about whether her Lady is bored, but Nynaeve says her Lady must want to move faster, and yells to Thom to pick up the pace. Elayne hears Thom muttering to himself, and then the coach jolts forward, bouncing them about terribly. Elayne tries to say something, but Nynaeve cuts her off.

“Is my Lady uncomfortable? I know ladies are used to comfort, the sort of thing a poor maid wouldn’t know about, but surely my Lady wants to make the next town before dark? So my Lady’s maid can serve my Lady’s supper and turn down my Lady's bed?”

Elayne sighs. Nynaeve had seen the point originally, that Elayne was far better equipped to play the noblewoman than Nynaeve, but they had stayed at an inn in a town called Bellon, where the innkeeper had insisted that only the Lady Morelin’s maid, Nana, would know the proper way to wait on her in every way. Elayne thought the woman was trying to get free work out of someone she didn’t have to pay, but it would have looked strange if she hadn’t gone along, and now Nynaeve was punishing her with a “lady’s maid from the Blight” act. Elayne resolves that she will stop trying to apologize, and tells Nynaeve that she has been thinking about getting to Tar Valon.

“My Lady has been thinking? My Lady must have a headache from all that effort. I will make my Lady a nice tea of sheepstongue root and red daisy as soon as — “

“Be quiet, Nana,” Elayne said, calmly but firmly; it was her very best imitation of her mother. Nynaeve’s jaw dropped. “If you pull that braid at me, you can ride on the roof with the baggage.”

She points out that she had tried to spare Nynaeve, but Nynaeve wouldn’t let her, and that she will play the maid at the next stop if that’s what it takes. After a moment, Nynaeve mutters something vaguely apologetic and then yells at Thom to slow down, is he trying to kill them? There is dead silence from above, but the coach slows again. Red-faced, Nynaeve asks Elayne to continue, and Elayne points out that they are rushing to Tar Valon without having any idea of what awaits them there, and after what happened in Mardecin, she does not intend to set foot inside it until they do. Nynaeve agrees, and then they are interrupted by the coach jolting to a halt, throwing Elayne on top of Nynaeve. She looks out the coach and is relieved to see it is only a traveling menagerie, with lions and capars and bears – and also, she sees with shock, three huge gray wrinkled creatures with tusks and trunks, which she had seen before. A good-looking man in a red silk cloak approaches and gives them a flourishing bow, apologizing if the “boar-horses” spooked their animals, and murmuring “be still my heart” as he gets a good look at Elayne. He introduces himself as Valan Luca, and tells them the boar-horses come from Shara, which Elayne knows to be a lie. He entreats them to allow him to put on a private show for them before they continue on to Ghealdan, promising tumblers and even an Illuminator to dazzle them, but Nynaeve tells him curtly that they are not interested. Elayne asks why he is going to Ghealdan, with all the troubles there with the Prophet and rioting, but Luca replies grandly that where there are crowds there are people wanting to be entertained. He also adds that they had a little trouble back in Sienda with one of the boar-horses, and paying the fines has left him a little low on funds. He asks again to put on a show for them, and Elayne tells him she has no time, but will give him something to help, and tells “Nana” to pay him. Nynaeve grumbles and presses something into Luca’s hand.

He looked startled as she said, “If you took a decent job of work, you would not have to beg. Drive on, Thom!”

Thom’s whip cracked, and Elayne was thrown back into her seat. “You did not have to be rude,” she said. “Or so abrupt. What did you give him?”

“A silver penny,” Nynaeve replied calmly, putting the purse back into her pouch. “And more than he deserved.”

“Nynaeve,” Elayne groaned. “The man probably thinks we were making sport of him.”

Nynaeve sniffed. “With those shoulders, a good day’s work would not kill him.”

Elayne lets it go, and they soon reach Sienda. Since the first inn is repairing a gaping hole in its wall, presumably courtesy of the “boar-horse”, they end up at the only other inn in town, called The Light of Truth, and Elayne is unnerved to see its common room is filled with Whitecloaks. Elayne plays the haughty noblewoman, and demands a separate bed for her maid this time; Nynaeve does not appreciate that she cites snoring as the reason, though Elayne thinks it is true. Thom and Juilin carry the trunks up to their small room and say they are going out to gather information; Elayne thinks it is cute that they think they are there for more than heavy lifting, and smiles at Thom and warns them to be careful. The men exchange a long-suffering look and leave, and Nynaeve pointedly fails to comment on Elayne’s behavior toward Thom, preparing for her meetings in Tel’aran’rhiod. Elayne tells her to tell Egwene to tell Rand she loves him, and Nynaeve rolls her eyes and agrees.

Enter: THE CIRCUS. (Dun!) Avec new elephant icon, which I guess was to make sure we really for true understood what the “giant boar-horses” were, like, thanks, we get it.

(Although, I know the “capars” are referring to an animal in the real world, and I cannot for the life of me remember what they are called. It’s kind of driving me nuts. Google is not being of much help, since shockingly, searching for “things that look kind of like boars” does not produce much in the way of useful results. Who’d’ve thunk it.)

The problem with summarizing anything involving Elayne and Nynaeve’s Odd Couple routine in TFOH (and onward) is that if I sat there and put in every nuance of their back-and-forth snarkery, well, I would just have to paste the whole chapter up and have done with it. However, if I don’t, it actually becomes very difficult not to make one or the other of them (or both) look like a complete bitch, because bits are missing which mitigate it.

(Cue Elayne- and/or Nynaeve-haters to chime in with “Well, she IS a complete bitch, bulleted list!”)

They aren’t, really, at least not in my opinion, though Nynaeve in particular really does not come off very well here. However, Nynaeve is going through something of a paradigm shift at the moment (which we will see in the next chapter), so while her current behavior is not exactly winning her Miss Congeniality awards anytime soon, I think it is understandable – and anyway, she pays the price for it Real Soon Now.

Of course, Elayne is not covering herself in glory either, with her dismissive thoughts about Thom and Juilin, right after the men had saved their asses big time. Which is quite definitely an example, in my opinion, of Jordan making a gender-flipped Point, and so I applaud it on a meta level while simultaneously being indignant on the guys’ behalf on an individual level. That’s because I can multitask.

And... that’s about what I got on this one. Have fun, and I’ll see youse guys Wednesday, ya heard me?

1. David-2
9 horse hitch. Easing the badger. My list of questions just keeps piling up.
Blake Engholm
2. UncrownedKing
Located here is probably the longest stretch of *Yawn* chapters in the entire series....

Alas, I do laugh at the absurdity of Nyn here. Get over your self!!

Happy post-day all
3. puffpio
About the Nine Horse Hitch: I don't think it means anything! Just implies everything! Just a chapter or two ago we had "Figs and Mice" which setup the idea of not knowing what the heck it is for, just lets the recipient's imagination run wild. I think Jordan than turned that idea from the book's world, into the reader's world w/ the lewd inn names...
4. alreadymadwithtravellingoddities
Typical Nynaeve. Get knocked down a notch, strike at somebody else. That useless man over there for instance. Never mind if you owe them, debts to men absolutely do not count.
Luke M
5. lmelior
On Dragonmount somebody suggested that the name had more to do with the almost-homophone of horse - whores - indicating it is a brothel. I tend to agree with #3 though, just an extension of Juilin's "figs and mice" trick. We can come up with more dirty definitions than he could possibly write. On the flip side, that makes it easier for younger readers to miss any sexual connotation.
James Jones
6. jamesedjones
Enter one of the most interesting characters in the series, Valan Luca. Don't get me wrong, I could do without everything that happens around him. But, if you pay attention, every single one of the major characters gets the same impression of him. Do we have any other characters in the series that are so clearly labled by both the guys and the girls? If so, please let me know.
7. david-2
puffpio - but ... what about Min's observation? Coincidence?? I think not!

Was Luca swooning for Elayne, not Nyn? I remembered that backwards, then. Nyn's treatment of him was really harsh, even if he is kind of a jackass. Still, he's got the vision and energy to create the first true circus of Randland ... entrepreneurs are often annoying and self-aggrandizing - not to mention a bit crazy - so I feel like cutting him some slack.
Dru O'Higgins
8. bellman
Capars might refer to Tapirs, a south american swinelike animal with a long flexible snout.
Maggie M
9. Eswana
What is it with guys shouting at women on the street, anyway? I’m seriously asking, because I never saw the point of it. I mean, that doesn’t ever work, does it? So why bother? For the joy of getting a “fuck off” reaction?

This is a huge pet peeve of mine, as well. Seriously. Men who are in this forum: NEVER do this. Do you think it's a compliment? 'cause I always feel objectified and you end of looking like a douche.

It doesn't even work! There was an episode of Sex & the City where Miranda confronts the construction workers who are yelling at her, and it wasn't pretty.

Sorry, rant. I'm sure the men of this forum are respectful gentlemen who would never dishonor a woman this way. But tell your friends: no cat calling.

I think I liked the Circus at first, because it ws so different from any of the other settings we'd seen thus far in WoT. Also, Randland has circuses? Cool?
But then they were with Luca for the nearly whole damn book, at which point I got bored with it.

And when Mat & Tuon & Co. end up with Luca five books from now, I was not pleased. Oh well. At least their Circus Hideout is short.
Lannis .
10. Lannis
I always found Gareth Bryne to be a little sad to read, at least at the beginning. Here's a man whose loyalty to Morgase was trampled on, and he's left to deal with the wreckage. I suppose it smacks of realism, which is why it's so sad...

I've always been a little confused (chicken/egg style) about the end of the Morgase/Bryne relationship. Did Rahvin come in to play and help plant the Tower Is The Enemy seed, and Bryne tried to advise another route and breakdown ensued? Or was Morgase legitimately angry with the Tower and had ditched Bryne before Rahvin showed up and Elaida left for Tar Valon? Anybody?

About the menagerie... I was really surprised when we meet up with Valan Luca later in the series--I have no idea, why... I mean, look at how much Jordan conserves his characters (and strangely, circuses). It made more sense on later readings because I recognized Aludra, but then was wondering why she was kicking around--plot wise, that is, seeing how all she does in this book is perfect her matches... I guess that reason alone is a big tell that Jordan wasn't finished with his animals on wheels...
Alex Johns
11. almuric
Capybara? And the spellchecker doesn't have a problem with 'legalese' because it's an, uh, legal word. Has been for about 100 years. :P

And yeah, I hated this part until Birgitte appeared. If I'd been traveling with Nynaeve I would have stolen the fox-medallion from Mat and taken a rug-beater to Nynaeve's backside for so long she wouldn't be able to sit for a month. Is it really so hard to treat other people decently?
James Jones
12. jamesedjones
10 Lannis

I've always thought that the falling out with Morgase and Bryne was instigated by Rahvin (on purpose, of course) starting the riots, and then using techniques and methods that Bryne didn't agree with.

Edit: Summed up by Gill in TDR before Mat and Thom left for Tear.
Jason Deshaies
13. darxbane
Not the most exciting chapters, are they? I do like the continued culture clash between Nynaeve and Elayne, even if they are acting foolish. Nynaeve is in such self denial it is pitiable. Her whole act is a defense mechanism to hide her insecurity, and she got so good at it that she doesn't know any other way. She doesn't hate to apologize because she is vain, she hates it because she is afraid that admitting you are wrong will somehow allow people to see that she is silly and weak. Her personal growth is a great story itself, in my opinion.

Leigh, Min will have that viewing once Bryne catches up to them in Salidar. It's another one of her "Maybe" viewings that she never used to get before.
Lannis .
14. Lannis
jamesedjones @ 12: Thanks!

Kind of puts more sad light on Bryne's story, though... :/
15. dwndrgn
Both of the girls tend to come off as self-centered manhaters in these chapters. They gradually get over it though I'm currently halfway through PoD this re-read and they still treat Matt like the 6 yo brother they tried to get rid of and Thom and Juilan might as well be mosquitoes they'd like to brush away. They never say thank you to anyone!!

What makes Valan Luca so special? He seems like a normal, everyday kinda bizman who likes the ladies.
James Jones
16. jamesedjones
14 Lannis

Absolutely. Can you imagine either one of them looking back once they get all the facts?

"You know, if it weren't for that Forsaken setting up shop in town..."

On the other hand, you could make a case that both of them upgraded for a younger model. :P
Jason Deshaies
17. darxbane
On Morgase's, as well. Even by the end of KoD, I don't think she knows that she was under Compulsion, or that Gaebril was Rahvin.

by the way; The Nine Horse Hitch - make the two H's silent, and the s sound more like a z......apparently, STD's even exist in Randland.
Tess Laird
18. thewindrose
I was a bit surprised that Rahvin let Byrne live. I think it probably had a lot to do with Morgase being so stong in herself that Rahvin wasn't able to get Byrnes killed, but only sent away. She knew inside that something was just not right, but not what.
Also, I wanted to comment that at least Byrne does not lose his 'bad assery', and goes on to be Egwene's general, and does not crumble under the SAS Halls manipulations. Maybe it takes being involved with at least 2 SG's for awhile to lose some of your cool - as in Thom and Julian.
Lannis .
19. Lannis
darxbane @ 17: re: Morgase and compulsion... for sure--Morgase has been violated more than anyone, we don't need to rehash it. But you're right, she still doesn't know. It would be an interesting scene if she found out onscreen. Hrm...

upgrading for a younger model: BAHAHahahaha!
Brian Kaul
20. bkaul
Nine Whores Itch ... don't think I want to go there. I agree on the Figs & Mice comments about the inn names.

Salidar. Birthplace of Deane Aryman, the Blue sister who had become Amyrlin after Bonwhin and had rescued the Tower from the ruin Bonwhin had poised it for.

Nice foreshadowing of Egwene's future starting in Salidar, with the Deane parallel.
21. Miythrandir
My take on Nynaeve and Elayne...Nynaeve gets better as the series progresses - I love her stint regarding Lan in KoD. She starts out as insufferable and whinny, but her comic relief transition makes her much more entertaining. I don't think she's a B. She's just butting heads with miss High & Mighty. I think their Good Cop/Bad Cop routine is great, and I like Elayne's sweet & sunny side. She just comes off as being ignorant and ultra-cocky. Guess every character has their imperfections.
22. Lsana
I just have one thing to say about these chapters, one thing that has always bothered me: the Blue Ajah is supposed to have the most extensive network of Eyes-and-Ears, be the best at spying, and the most effective at conspiracy and manipulation. And the best code they can come up with is "Sallie Daera" = "Salidar"? Really, guys? No one but a Blue could figure that out? I figured out they were going to Salidar as soon as that was said, and I hadn't even studied the map closely enough to know for sure there was a place called Salidar.

Clearly, the Blues need to re-read the Evil Overlord List and remember to run all codes and passwords past their five-year-old child advisor.

@7 david-2,

I think the idea was that while Suian's reaction indicates that "nine horse hitch" does mean something in the WOT world, RJ may not have bothered to figure out what. He just trusted us to come up with something sufficiently dirty.
Maggie M
23. Eswana
jamesedjones @ 16
both of them upgraded for a younger model. :P
Alex Johns
24. almuric
In explanation (not defense, necessarily) of yelling at women on the street. In times past, I was in the military. US Navy. For 10 years. So I know a little bit about inappropriate and even lecherous behavior.

Speaking to all women for the male half: "We want to have sex with you. Often. Repeatedly." Perhaps this isn't news to women, but the extent of this desire is something most women don't/can't understand. I don't have a degree in psychology or sociology but I lived in close confines with many males for long periods of time. You can learn a lot about a subject from just observing it for a long time.

Speaking evolutionarily, I am the end product of a whole bunch of rapists successfully impregnating females. My dad wasn't a rapist. I don't believe his dad was either. Perhaps not for even a few more generations before that. But remember, a general acknowledgment of women's equality is a very recent development in human history. 99.999% of my male ancestors, all the way back to the very first sexually reproducing paramecium (or whatever it was) didn't ask for consent from their female partners. (Now perhaps some of those females would have consented if asked, but still, not all the niceties we take for granted nowadays were followed.)

I cannot overemphasize this point: We want to have sex with you. Badly. To the point of distraction. We will spend large chunks of our paychecks just to see women undress. We do all sorts of things to try to get your attention. As far as yelling at you on the street, it works better than ignoring you. I guarantee that someone, somewhere got laid because they wolf-whistled at a passing girl.

An instructor early in my military career told me this story: Him and his buddy were in New York. They were talking about women and how to get laid and somehow they ended up making a bet. The instructor bet his buddy that he could walk down a block of a fairly heavily traveled street, ask every girl if she wanted to go and have sex, and not make it to the end of the block before some girl said yes. He reported that about the 20th girl he asked said yes. (This was told to me in 1983 and from the age of the instructor I inferred this was in the mid-to-late 60's. Also, he didn't really seem like the kind of guy who had to make up stories like this. But you can disbelieve if you want.)

So to the detractors of the wolf whistle, the shouted "Hey gorgeous", the misused Mr. Microphones of the world, remember that hope springs eternal. And oftentimes, it is a compliment. One you may not want, but a compliment nonetheless. (I'm sure the germans have a word for that.)

With all that said, let me just point out that it has been at least 20 years since I last wolf-whistled or shouted a compliment at a woman. We do grow up eventually. Or get married. Or both.
Hugh Arai
25. HArai
Having these chapters recapped together really contrasts to me just how immature Nynaeve and Elayne are compared to Siuan and Gareth. Elayne obviously didn't internalize much about how to lead from Gareth's example. I keep trying to figure out how two obviously intelligent women can be so damn stupid. I know it's just a story, but arrgh!
Kevin Morgan
26. DrMorganstien
@20 almuric
I can definitely see the logic in those statements.

The one or two times I have ever felt the need to act in such a boorish fashion is when the woman about to be yelled at looks at a group of guys (who are being completely innocuous and just talking to each other) and gives the "Elayne putting her veil in her mouth" response and I've decided she needs to be as offended as I am, and the best way to do it is to use her own judgements against her. Is that the right thing to do? Probably not. Is it the fun thing to do? Absolutely.
John Fitzingo
27. Xandar01
Doesn't Santa use a nine-"horse"-hitch on them especially foggy days?
Michael Catapano
28. hoping
Not much to talk about with these two chapters.

What can I say without getting dragged into it?
I will say that men wolfcall primarily to impress their buddies. You will not see a lone man wolfcall.
29. alreadymadwithbrynesouster
Lannis @10
I thought Bryne was maneuvered out around the same time most of the Morgase loyalists were. The ones that resurface in large numbers when Elayne returns to Caemlyn.

thewindrose @18
Rahvin, being an arrogant Forsaken, probably figured Bryne would be helpless once out of the palace. Trying to get him killed was likely to attract more attention than he wanted at the time.
Alice Arneson
30. Wetlandernw
puffpio @3

I'm with you on this one. I had never really thought about the near juxtaposition of the figs-and-mice trick with the inn-names thing. Funny when you consider it that way! But yeah, I always figured that RJ knew human nature pretty well: make up a meaningless name and tell people it's lewd, and they'll figure something out. I was always grateful he didn't go into it much more than that, so I don't get stuck with a bunch of mental images I don't need.

(Hey, guys, there's one of the disadvantages to the memory we were talking about last time. Once I've seen/read/imaged something, I can NEVER get rid of it. Really stinks sometimes. And don't anyone EVER tell me the words to "The Girl from Ipanema" please.)
Andrew Lovsness
31. drewlovs
When ever I see Nynaeve in these chapters, two things come to mind. The first is an impulse to skip, skip SKIP!! that chapter.

The second is to remind myself of what she becomes. Remember, when Nynaeve and Lan hook up with Rand onward, she is completely loyal to Rand, even to the point of crossing Cadsuane without really knowing all the consequences. Lan at that time is trying to help Nynaeve become a true Aei Sedai in terms of how to act, speak, etc. I really liked her at that point on.

Why? Well, I REALLY liked the end result of all that personal growth we have to endure firsthand. In other words, there is indeed a payoff with Nynaeve when it comes to her irritating attitudes, speech and beliefs. I once heard a cliche, "I hate personal growth, but I love the results." Nynaeve is one of the best examples of just how true this is...

And, for the record, the Gareth/Siuan relationship is one of the best written in WoT, for me personally...and I don't know why.
32. alreadymadwithdisgustingmice
Mice and figs. Mice nibbling on your skin...
Did I mention that I hate mice?
They carry all sorts of diseases.
Bubonic plague, Rabies, Lhasa fever, Leptospirosis.
Hugh Arai
33. HArai
thewindrose@18: Unfair comparision to Thom and Juilin. Don't forget they were under serious pressure to go with Elayne and Nyneave (from Rand, Moirain and Lan) and got stuck swearing an oath to obey the whiney little brats to get passage on the raker. Gareth Bryne was never put in such a disadvantaged position, since the Salidar AS needed him more than he needed them.
John Fitzingo
34. Xandar01
@24. almuric

Yeah, there seem to be certain occupations that encourage cat calling. Not sure how it goes for construction workers, but it does seem to work often enough when you are in the military. (Especially if you are visiting a port in some foreign country.) But it doesn't work for every body.

Same thing with pick up lines in bars. I've seen guys hook up with the lamest line while someone else uses the same line on someone else and no luck.

And yeah most of us outgrow it, or get married that is. ;)
Tess Laird
35. thewindrose
I can relate a funny story about getting "wolfcalled". I was walking to lunch with my husband in a business district. Some constuction workers started yelling inappopraite (but flattering?) words my way. I turned red, but had to laugh - it was just too funny. My husband just shook his head.

Anyways - WoT related - Valan Luca. He does chase Elayne for about a minute, until she blows him off and Thom also has some words with him. Then he starts chasing Nynaeve, and she seems to be playing hard to get, which encourages Valan even more.
Now, does Elayne bring this up to Nynaeve - I am at work and don't have the book here. Because after getting lectured on Rand like Elayne has - I sure would have.
Jason Deshaies
36. darxbane
@25, They are both out of their element, waayy out of their element. People can act quite oddly when removed from their comfort zone.
37. Cowboy Funk
I agree the "hooting and hollaring" us males do is usually when in a group. I cant recall every driving along alone and whistling at anyone on the street...but add a few friends into the mix and we're fighting for spots to hang out the window. lol. Kinda sad, I know....but it happens.

Hasn't anyone seen that Seinfeld where Jerry does a stand up on this in the beginning? Its the best we got....millions of years of evolution and yelling or whistling at the opposite sex is the best we've come up with. Caveman times I am sure we just threw a rock or hit her over the head with a T-Rex bone.

And oh my goodness...I hate skipping chapters cus there usually is some small gem in even the most drull chapter, but these adventures with Supergirls + circus are just BRUTAL at times. Luca is a cool character cus he is what he is. But the circus doesnt really offer any other interesting character development until Mat & Co. start travelling with them.

and thats my 2 cents.
James Jones
38. jamesedjones
33 Harai

Good Point! Juilin was pretty much under the "keep her alive or die" oath, and Thom needed to go with them to Tanchico or Moiraine wouldn't offer the names of the Reds. Nyneave played the card early and for all it was worth while she could on the Sea Folk ship.

Considering that he showed Mat the letter, was there another piece of paper in the note he received? I do not remember the names of any Reds in the note that Mat read. Is he not going to get the names unless he rescues her from the Finns?

Bryne's oath was more along the lines of, "I'll do whatever it takes to get Tar Valon for you." And he managed to convince the Sitters and Egwene that he knew the best way to do it.
Tess Laird
39. thewindrose
HArai - Tom is a master at Das Daemar - he could have gotten out of that promise as soon as the raker docked. And Julian was also quite a capable man. I think they where awesome in Tanchico, but during this story arc they become less 'bad ass' and more support characters for the 2 SG's they are with.
40. CalaLily
@35: Yeah, Elayne points out that Nynaeve seems to be acting hard-to-get, which just encourages Luca. Nynaeve's completely oblivious that she's been doing that, though. She says she was trying to control her temper around him, and Elayne says that if she wanted to discourage him she should have kept biting his head off, instead of ignoring him.

Re: wolf whistles/cat calls: I...would probably not know how to react. xD I'm painfully modest, so I'd most likely just blush and keep walking. Or, ya know, take a picture with the guys. I'm not afraid to admit I am a nice little country mouse. xD Cityfolk generally worry me, but as a tourist, I'd love to have a pic with "The Whistling Construction Workers" written under it in a scrapbook or something.

The concept doesn't really bother me. If anything, the men look like pigs. Just shrug it off and keep walking, ladies.
Hugh Arai
41. HArai
thewindrose@39: T&J probably could have gotten out of it yes. I submit however, unlike virtually all the wetlander women, when they swear an oath, what they do is try to live up to it. Instead of immediately hunting for all the ways to get out of it.
42. alreadymadwithgreatcaptbryne
HArai @33
I would not be so sure that Gareth did not need them as much as the AS needed him. The man is a general, and he knows the Last Battle is coming. He does not want to be caught without an army at his back. Any army.
In fact, his POV states he was actually willing to bargain away one or two of the conditions he imposed as long as he got his army. The AS just happened to be too desperate to even think about question him. I guess being one the best generals in the land gave him quite a bargaining position.

Re: the catcalling and hooting
I don't do that. A smile and an ogle is usually enough for me.
Roger Powell
43. forkroot

Was Luca swooning for Elayne, not Nyn?

On the first meeting, yes Luca does make a fuss over Elayne. When they go back to join his circus, he eventually does develop the hots for Nynaeve.

EDIT: Gah! Forgot to refresh. thewindrose@35 had this covered.
Sara H
44. LadyBelaine
I always thought that 'capar' where probably tapirs:

Here are some examples:

* tapir?
* tapir!

And for what its worth, the "lady's maid from the Blight" comment continues to tickle me as one of the most humorous lines in the whole gosh-darned saga.
Hugh Arai
45. HArai
alreadymad@42: Oh, I agree Gareth had things he wanted from the Salidar AS as well. My point was he was never in a position where he had to swear to let the AS jerk him around the way Thom & Juilin had to swear to Nyneave and Elayne. In fact, some of the conditions he was willing to get killed over were basically that the AS would promise not to mess around when it was important.
46. RobMRobM
Not to say I gave the matter much thought, but keep in mind that a hitching post capable of having nine horses tied to it is a really really long hard object....

Just sayin. ;-)

Tess Laird
47. thewindrose
Generalizations tend to paint a person into the corner. I see how you seperated wetlander women from the Aiel. But, look at MO - she has made it her life to fight the DO and to do it at any expense(an Oath that does require her to break other Oaths). The SG's have also joined this battle, but with the caveat being to also save Rand at any cost. They are not looking for ways to get around these Oaths, but for ways to actually get it done. Now as readers, we all know that if people actually comunicated with each other, we would get some results, but we really only start seeing this in KoD. I think Thom and Juilin are great characters, it just sucks that they go down a notch or two with N & E. But Tom and Juilin also experience this somewhat with Mat, how do you compete on stage with Mat? I thought when it was just Mat and Thom there was some real chemistry, but as Mat grows into his role, it is hard to compete.
Roger Powell
48. forkroot
Regarding Nine-Horse Hitches and other things left to the imagination:

I believe Tom Lehrer said it best:

When correctly viewed,
Everything is lewd.
(I could tell you things about Peter Pan,
And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man!)

Many of us who fall in the older half of Wetlandernw's summarization recall Tom fondly. The younger generation who listen to Dr Demento are also likely acquainted with his work.
Tess Laird
49. thewindrose
Also - look at the Shaido wise ones - they have assuredly lost all honor, and the Aiel honor code is equivalent to an swearing an oath.
Perrin's promise to Rand, while not an oath, goes down the drain when his wife is taken.
50. RobMRobM
@48 "So bow your head with great respect and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect...."

51. Freelancer
16, school bus, heading for a high school track meet.

The last time in my life I catcalled a female.

I wasn't strong enough to brush off peer pressure yet, and everyone on the bus was yelling at three girls walking home. It didn't help that I was the younger senior in the school, and needed desperately to feel less like a misfit.

RE: Gareth Bryne

Rahvin most certainly imposed his Compulsion on Morgase in order for her to label Bryne a traitor. Even without Basel Gill's input it would be nigh impossible to think otherwise. One of the "great captains" of the known world, the Captain-General of the Andoran Queen's Guard, Morgase's most trusted advisor outside of Elaida, which means her most trusted since her displeasure with Tar Valon. In her right mind, Morgase knows his loyalty to her is unassailable. Ergo, she's not in her right mind.
52. longtimefan
As for the public calling I tend to side with the "showing off for other men" camp.

It is a key way to prove to other men your level of commitment to heterosexual interest.

there is a lot of other psychological blah blah blah but I am at work.
Richard Fife
53. R.Fife
On the catcalling, I agree with the peer pressure, showing off for men. I work with two sailors, and they like to catcall and honk, and I call them down for it, and yet I'm the stupid idiot.
Tony Zbaraschuk
54. tonyz
I've actually come to enjoy these chapters a bit more on the re-re-read. (I liked them initially, then thought "can't you get on with it", and now they're back to the "pretty good" position.)

The fun part is tracking down the difference between what people think is going on, and what's actually going on. And watching Nynaeve's character growth -- the mention a few chapters ago of "Now I understand why Aes Sedai have Warders", for instance, was a good moment... and a nice preparation for when Lan becomes her Warder. Nynaeve is getting hammered into shape. Elayne's POV provides an interesting contrast as well.
Hugh Arai
55. HArai
thewindrose@47: You're correct I shouldn't generalize. I freely acknowledge the SGs commitment to fighting the DO. I don't think they've sworn an oath to do so, at least not in the explicit fashion that Lan has for instance. I'm not sure if even Moiraine has done that.

Moiraine kept her oaths of course and very likely would have even if she wasn't bound to. The SGs? Well Egwene breaks her personal promises. She owns up to it, but she still does it. Nynaeve keeps hers to Lan apparently. Not sure if Elayne actually swears any.

The people and oaths I'm looking at really are the Athan Miere, Kin and Aes Sedai, and the agreements they make between the groups and amongst themselves. And I do include Elayne and Nynaeve here. They barely, barely follow the letter of agreements, constantly looking for loopholes. It's pretty sickening really. Gah, look at Beonin! or Annoura - "Well I don't know about you but I feel in danger..well maybe not, well maybe". Sheesh.
Faile and Berelain do their little dances around promises and oaths too. And really that's what.. 80%-90% of the wetlander women we see?

The Shaido, well they were breaking oaths when they appeared in the story and never stopped. To be honest, I found them weird because they seem to be the only human group that uniformly oathbreaks and "just because" as far as I can tell.

Very much agreed about Perrin. And that's going to really suck I think. But in this case, you're swinging wider than I did. I just said T&J keep their oaths without trying to break them or work around them. I didn't say all the men did. That would be hard considering the Whitecloaks are in the story.
James Jones
56. jamesedjones
53 R.Fife

Maybe. On the other hand, it could be the yellow shawl...

Edit: For explanation, see the RickRoller's recap here.
57. cor-darei4life
already mad @ 32 dont forget Hantavirus, boy thats a nasty one.

and I was thinking the nine horse hitch could be some very interesting bedroom ropework
58. alreadymadwithbiggeneralbryne
HArai @45
Indeed being a Great Captain makes for a very powerful bargaining position. I guess even the AS would think twice before secondguessing his management of an army. Still, the mere fact that he was actually willing to renege on a few of his conditions indicates how much he wants to have an army to command. Goes back to my comment about knowing the Last Battle is drawing near and wanting to be prepared for it.

And I agree. It is sickening to see how these women seem to swear oaths for the express purpose of trying to find a loophole around them.
59. Freelancer

Try being in the Navy for 21 years as someone who does not smoke, drink or use profanity. Talk about being outcast. Whenever people want to act in a base manner, they will automatically put down and ridicule anyone who doesn't join in. It's a defense mechanism attempting to shield them from their own conscience. Very much like Nynaeve's methods.
Richard Fife
60. R.Fife
@59: Oh yeah, my swearing has gotten horrendous since I started working where I am. And interesting. I have learned ways to swear I never knew existed, and here I thought the old "swears that would make a sailor blush" was an urban legend! It really kills the goat.
Alice Arneson
61. Wetlandernw

I like your summary of Nynaeve and her growth. Her defense mechanisms against what she sees as her own problems are kind of amazing. But (as I sometimes hate to admit) I can relate to her all too well. Back in my teens I was extremely shy and insecure, so I hid behind a facade of aloofness. I would much rather have had people think I was stuck up than let them know how painfully shy I was. Nynaeve spends a lot of time pushing people around because she doesn't want to give them a chance to notice that she's scared.

Rats, I was going to say something else really profound about this, but that was an hour ago and now I can't remember it.
Michael Catapano
62. hoping
RFife You may not know that this is National Kiss a Goat Month.
Hugh Arai
64. HArai
alreadymad@58: Well you know, what we see of the High Lords of Tear, the Whitecloaks, and the Brotherless is pretty sickening too for the most part. It's not just women by any means.

It does occur to me the Borderlander women seem to honor both the letter and the spirit of their oaths. Likewise Birgitte and Min and Aludra.
65. Buddhacat
What is it with guys shouting at women on the street, anyway? I’m seriously asking, because I never saw the point of it. I mean, that doesn’t ever work, does it? So why bother? For the joy of getting a “fuck off” reaction? Tis a puzzlement!

I have never seen it here in the US, but this is very common back in India. It's called "eve-teasing" and it can get a lot nastier than just lewd comments. There are even laws to try and control it. The Lugard version seems like a milder form of eve-teasing.
66. ammbd
@ almuric:

very nicely & clearly put!

i will add that having been wolf whistled at from time to time, when it's all in good fun - it's fine.

it's the times, when it's not at all in fun - that it's not fine.
Tess Laird
67. thewindrose
HArai - totally not picking on you. But I do have a borderland woman in mind that you have aready mention that likes to skirt promises and oaths as well as she can. But she also takes oaths made to her very seriously...Faile. When the fellow prisoners are swearing oaths to her, she is determined to keep her vow that she will somehow come back for them and set them free.
Sam Mickel
68. Samadai

I think you should leave your name as it is, it is a perfectly cool way to describe what you are talking about while making me laugh always.

As regarding the oath following cultures, it seems that the old blood cultures are more likely to keep their oaths, the borderlands, Two Rivers, Aiel, Sea Folk. I think that there relative isolation from others allows them a better Ideal of how to live. Of course just like any culture there are those who are not trustworthy to oaths.
John Massey
69. subwoofer
Conversation seems to have gone sideways before I came along. The phrase don't touch it with a ten foot pole comes immediately to mind.

As far as ummm... calling out to ladies. Now I am not condoning the actions, but it does happen. Funny story that- it may be related to cabin fever. In my experience, when you stare at guys all day long- for days/weeks/months at a time, your perception tends to get skewed. Ladies that would be... okay looking... suddenly become God's gift because you have been looking at a bunch of guys digging and scratching and poking... forever. And you do things that are out of the norm- because things get tense after a bit.

As for cussin', it is almost like relating to babies. It is a struggle to bring yourself up to normal societal levels after dealing day-in and day-out with dirtbags. Tends to rot the mind. Right or wrong, it is what it is.
Tess Laird
70. thewindrose
How about the Seanchan? They are like crazy oath followers.
Hugh Arai
71. HArai
thewindrose@67: Not to worry. I like to debate :) As for Faile: Big points for her behavior in the Shaido camp. Minus tons of points for her jerking Loial around by one of his oaths. In my opinion anyway.

Incidentally, back to the idea you pointed out at the start: Having just read the scene where Thera stands up and meets the eyes of the Deathwatch Guard, lots of cool points to Master Juilin Sandar.
And cool points to Thom for leaving it up to Mat whether he wants help rescue Moiraine. The decent thing to do, and the smartest way to handle Mat to boot.

@70: Tuon, Tyree and the Deathwatch Guard all seemed to fulfil their obligations. Trying to think of others that weren't either darkfriends or stuck following darkfriend orders.
Sam Mickel
72. Samadai
I missed the post from #5 but I am 38/m / oregon/ 17+ some WoT years old
73. Valan
@ the wind rose 70

Hmmm. There less Oath-Keepers and more a crazy brainwashed culture. *Ha epiphany!* I think the Seanchan must be a product of an idea Jordan had of standing the premise "Every wo/man is equal" on its head.
I really like these chapters. In fact so far (in this particular re-read and normally) I really love this book. Its just so fun to see all of our strongest female characters brought down a notch or two. The strongest (IMHO) being (at this point in the WoT) Moraine, Suian and Nynaeve. Moraine gets to beg, Suian gets to be humiliated in public and Nynaeve gets to act - not just like a complet bitch - but like a little girl. I find the first instance very satisfactory and the last two as demonstrated in this recap exceedingly hilarious... yes, i really enjoy it.

Gareth Bryne is seems just the same as he did earlier in the book/series because, he needs to be just the same. He is a natural Randland crazy-awesome-dude and needs to stay that way.

And the famous Managerie... or circus... I prefer the former term cause I hate the circus and clowns even more. But I really enjoy these chapters because they are a nice relief from the the world is coming to an end drama norm. They work well, we get one of the coolest characters ever out of it - Valan Luca of course! (ha, j/k, name is a coinicidence I assure you). No, notably, birgitte. Who is MoA. Luca is a rather fun character, especially when he's chasing after nynaeve and we all know that that is hopeless for him. Sad, but funny. Especially since's he's a hopeless prick. Plus Thom kind of gets to show off his gleeman skills and almost skin Nynaeve. Which is awesome. Yeah, i dig the Managerie. and will quit rambling. i promise.



That I won't keep!

I have never once in all of my 23 years of life cat-called a woman. Not because I'm extremely sensitive or anything, but because I've always assumed it would never work and considered it rather idiotic. I can understand the urge though in the military situations I've read about in the comments above. ummmm (looking) Almuric and the U.S. Navy. Yeah I'm cutting ya'll plenty of slack.
74. HurinSmells
I really don't like the Siuan/Gareth sub-plot. As a plot device to get the Salidar AS a super-general resposible for building their army it does what it needs to, but as a romance it's horrible. Almost as difficult to sit through as Morgase/Trakand. Maybe it's just the "old people" romances that I struggle with.

Cowboy Funk @ 37, I'm with you on the skipping... if there weren't so many details interwoven with the boring narratives of these sub-plots I'd be skipping in a heartbeat.
75. RobMRobM
@62. That's funny, I heard it was National Kiss a Nine Horse Hitch Month....
craig thrift
76. gagecreedlives
Im certainly not one for catcalling but I have been known to give a pretty girl a honk and a friendly wave.


Yeah pretty ordinary secret code. Just because they have the most extensive network doesn’t mean they have the most efficient. Im gonna go with the white ajah has having the best covert eyes and ears network.
Lannis .
77. Lannis
Valan @ 73: re: the women of the series being brought down a peg...

I think this might be one of the reasons Jordan's world is so realistic... NONE of the characters are untouched by the whirlwind chaos that the world is quickly degenerating into... name anybody, and their lot in life is changed from their first introduction to our last view of them. Anyone in power becomes powerless, and people who were rooted to their village/place in life are uprooted and on their way, wherever that may be. S'complex. S'cool.

RobM @ 75: Ick! :|
78. Freelancer

Go ahead and cut them slack. I don't. "When I was a child, I spake as a child..."
We all know where that passage goes. But adult males who are supposed to be men, have no excuse for acting like children. Pulling the false excuse of "I signed up to fight for my country", as cart blanche for acting the dirtbag (thanks subwoofer), is a copout. My entire career in uniform I kept my body parts to myself. You can't avoid seeing what's in the path of your eyes, but you have a choice about whether the aim lingers.

What's sadder still is the number of ladies who in recent decades have chosen to act as badly or worse. Whether to fit in, prove themselves as tough as the guys, or whatever, it pains me whenever I witness it.
79. Freelancer
Almost as difficult to sit through as Morgase/Trakand.
I'm supposing you meant Morgase/Tallanvor, yes?
John Massey
80. subwoofer
give a pretty girl a honk and a friendly wave- is that what it's called these days? ;)

As for Garath- yup, he's a gooder. No doubt. Love the terms he tells the AS. Probably because he knows if the AS kiss and make up, he's the one holding the bag, and, as he is one of the Great Captains, unless the AS are hiding a brilliant tactician in their ranks, let the General, general.

As for his motivation, I am not entirely sure it is because he wants a command. It may also have to do with a pair of blue eyes. Men have done foolish things for less. He may see that Suian has chosen a side and wanted to do his best to back her.

And it may also have to do with the hinted at Egwene tav'ereness that she may or may not have. Because Garath swore to her not the Sallidar AS.
81. RobMRobM
Lannis@77. Sorry about that. I don't wolf whistle so off color jokes must be my outlet.
82. SusanB
Re: Cat calls... I love them. I think they are very flattering, as long as all the men are doing is hooting. In fact, all my friends feel the same way. I don't know any woman who dislikes someone telling them they are beautiful in any way, shape or form.
83. alreadymadwithnetworking
gagecreedlives @76
They're not supposed to have a network at all IIRC. But then again, I suppose they're so good at hiding it even RJ doesn't know. :P
Timothy Schaefer
84. breeze
Ahhh, the Nine Horse Hitch. For some reason I've always taken to the theory that the horses are men and the hitch is a woman. At least, I remember reading that somewhere. I can't quite remember where, alas.
85. Freelancer

Siuan's attraction is certainly a major part of Bryne's decision not to just go home. But there is far more. It's a while yet before the re-read gets there, but Thom plays his own part. Bryne is a brilliant man, with great discernment, and no small ability in the Game. He picks up on why the SAS are there, and surely can see that it is Siuan's plotting that aims at retaking the Tower. As much as they did not get along in their past interactions, each is aware of the other's skills and strengths. The entire business of the Amyrlin Seat declaring limits of activity to the Andoran Captain is because he is so effective, and could easily have ruined the Tower's scheme for the Murandy border (which got ruined by a random farmer anyway).

Bryne may have been unhappy about that event, but he recognizes that Siuan's side of the Tower split has honorable intentions. All he knows about the other side is that Elaida leads. I'm confident that that's all he needs to know to choose sides. Once Egwene has been installed, to me it seems just an added bonus that Bryne gets to ignore the almighty Hall in favor of the child-Amyrlin, who just happens to be guided by his erstwhile lady-love.

Maybe he's a fool for following a pair of pretty eyes, but he's a wise fool. ;-)
Lannis .
86. Lannis
@ RobM... no apology necessary. Hands over my eyes on the Nine Horse Hitch debate. La la la!
87. Master Al'Thor
For practically the rest of the book they get on my nerves. Really bad.

Cat calls....
I always wondered why women didn't like this. It's meant to be a compliment. But objectification is a bad thing.

Question to you ladies
If a man came up to you and said nice ass and walked on, would you find that insulting or offensive?

Or would you prefer the wolf whistle?

I'm happily married so I only do this to my wife.
But I have sons and younger brothers and I am trying to help them out. So please help me out.
88. SusanB
Master Al'Thor

Catcalls...I think "nice ass" is a little crass. I would prefer a whistle or a "hey sexy". But, from earlier responses it seems that most women don't like this at all. I don't understand this. I like the random compliments.
John Massey
89. subwoofer
@SusanB- I like random compliments too. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. ;)

@Free- excellent point- after all the comments, how could I forget that Elaida sits on the other side of the conflict and the fine relationship Bryne has with her. That would be motivation enough for most. Daes Dae'mar comes full circle for him.
Tess Laird
90. thewindrose
I liked the Sea Folk when we first met them.
But now, as in the fateful Elayne & Nyn Bargin, I just can't stomach them. (And I will agree that Elayne @ Nyn got schooled there!)
Although I do think that the marraige between Lan and Nyn is hilarious, and just what the wisdom ordered - haha.
I love that Rand goes all ta'veren on them. But he leaves too soon, and they get back alot in their Bargin.
Samadai- do you really think they don't try to skirt around their oaths - real question, I tend to read really fast though any thing Sea Folk.
sandi vogel
91. sinfulcashew
Thank you so much for the link that has nothing to do with WOT!
I love this man with a passion from the times of my youth. So hilarious!
Now I can listen again and LMAO.
Stan Freberg was very good also, but they are two different types. (Not to mention Ray Stevens)

All this debating of characteristics of the characters.....
I started the books with teenager types and have followed them through as they aged and grew up some.
I don't fault them for their mistakes and sillynesses, as I figured they would eventually pass all the kid-stuff and become the heroes and heroines that they will be.

Is this 9-hitch horse thingy a reality?
I would think with my age I would have heard of such a thing along my way.
But it certainly doesn't ring a bell(I tried to come up with a fitting rejoinder, but alas.....)
92. Shadow_Jak
Wetlandernw @ 30

Tall and tan and young and lovely
The girl from Ipanema goes walking
And when she passes, each one she passes goes...
Yip, Yip, Yahoo! *whistle* Hey Bay-Bee!
Nice tan. Is it "all over"!
Who's your Daddy, who's your Daddy
Whoop! whoop!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

HArai @33
Gareth Bryne was never put in such a disadvantaged position, since the Salidar AS needed him more than he needed them.
Actually, he was in an even bigger fix. He was convinced the AS would not let him leave there alive without an agreement.

Alreadymad... @42
Re: the catcalling and hooting
I don't do that. A smile and an ogle is usually enough for me.
Yeah, me too. And rub my earlobe of course.
93. RobMRobM
Lannis@86. As I'm only nine months old in WOT time I can't be held responsible for my poor behavior. Goo.

Sinful@91. I'm a big Lehrer fan. I found a cool weblink to his Elements song with interesting graphics (where he recites all of 200-plus elements to the tune of the Major General's song from Pirates of Penzance) and emailed it to my daughter's fourth grade teacher. My favorite remains the Vatican Rag with its amazing rhyme scheme playing with Catholic Church traditions ("Get in line in that processional, step into that small recessional, there the guy who's got religion'll tell you if your sin's original, if it is try playin it safer, drink the wine and chew the wafer, two, four six eight -- time to transusbstantiate...."). Truly brilliant.

James Jones
94. jamesedjones
91 SinfulCashew

Lmelior got this on the 5th post. A Nine Horse Hitch is what you get after sleeping with - 9 whores. Yes, it's tasteless, and really not funny even once you get it. Ah, well.

Edit: Darxbane got it, too, on 17. (The joke, not the itch)
Hugh Arai
95. HArai
Shadow_Jak@92: Yes, but he also knew that they wanted his services as one of the great generals and that he'd die anyway if he agreed to let them tell him what to do. That's a stronger position than having to beg to go with two women convinced they know everything and that they don't need you.

RobMRobM@93: Pollution is my favorite ("Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly... but they don't last long if they try!)
96. The Ninth Horse
Nine horse hitches are, apparently, completely innocuous, at least in reality. The horses are arranged in three rows of three horses. I guess they are primarily used by the Amish. Hooray for Google!
Did Robert Jordan know this? And if so, did he know something about the Amish we don't (perhaps there are alternate uses for nine horse hitches than fieldwork)?
97. mike178623487263746972349
both of them upgraded for a younger model. :P

Im pretty sure this should be on the Official Quote list, and if there is no Official Quote list there should be
craig thrift
98. gagecreedlives

IIRC an aes sedai assumes that the white has no network. And working with the equation of aes sedai + assumption = wrong then the white must have the best.

But if RJ confirmed that they have no network then its a massive D’’oh to me then


A big Hey Sexy to you my dear and Subwoofer, although your not really my type, a Nice Ass to you.

All in the interest of making people feel all good and fuzzy on the inside. I personally use whiskey but whatever
99. alreadymadwithmorebryneytalk
All valid reasons for Gareth, I'm sure. In fact IIRC Egwene points out to an incredulous Siuan that Gareth really did not have any other reason to support her other than the fact that Siuan does as well. But right here when Gareth first accepts command of the Salidar army, I'm still with the Great Captain ain't gonna get caught by the Last Battle without an army position.

The Ninth Horse @96
As hilarious as it may be to try to imagine... I don't think the Amish are that kinky.
100. jafco
Ahh, subwoofer:

@80. '...a pair of blue eyes..." I thought your were going to get literate on us, bringing in Thomas Hardy, but then your links led to some cheesy videos. Mr. Hardy gave us the term "cliffhanger" (considered to have originated with Thomas Hardy's serial novel A Pair of Blue Eyes in 1873 (wikipedia)). That would have applied to something good ol' Asmodean talked about earlier but not much in the present and next few chapters here.

Love these chapters! E&N come off as real women, learning and growing and trampling all over one another and everybody else. Thom and Juilin are just these guys, ya' know, and remain loyal, steadfast and dismissive.

I don't think they catcall gals in Iran, wearing, uhh, their burkhas.
John Massey
101. subwoofer
@100- nope- just a direct quote out of text- Bryne muses about blue eyes- Suian's.
(Prologue TFoH)"Why did he find himself thinking of a pair of blue eyes? Challenging him as though wishing she had a sword, afraid and refusing to yield to fear."

Long live cheesy videos.

@98- gagecreedlives- awwwwwwwwww thanks. Feeling fuzzy...

edit- hi Leigh- this reminds me of Barney in HIMYM- WWBD?
sandi vogel
102. sinfulcashew
At first I thought you were AMW sneaking in here!
But thank goodness he has kept his nose clean!

Well, we have two ways to go with the horsey thing. Thanks? for the info.
I like the Amish. I've heard that everything they construct has one mistake. No perfection as God is the only one that is perfect.

I really enjoy the S & G romance. And I liked the N & L
romance too! It seems that starting out on the wrong sides leads to winding up together. Seen it happen alot.
103. HurinSmells
Doh! Morgase/Tallanvor is what I meant. My least favourite story arc in the entire series.
Alice Arneson
104. Wetlandernw
Master Al'Thor @ 87
Question to you ladies
If a man came up to you and said nice ass and walked on, would you find that insulting or offensive?

Or would you prefer the wolf whistle?

Ummmm... at the moment, if a guy did that to me I'd probably suggest an urgent visit to his ophthamologist! ;)

Seriously, though (or as serious as I can get on the subject) I think of the two I'd prefer the wolf whistle. Better yet, go with alreadymad's smile & ogle. The smile at least indicates some possible recognition of a person...

Okay, I can't resist. I have to tell a funny from college. I was walking home from campus one evening when I met someone who was, oddly enough, standing still on the sidewalk. Since I was thinking hard about something else, I gave my usual polite smile & nod and walked calmly on. It was probably half a block farther on that the actual image registered. I'd just been flashed and didn't even notice... Poor guy. :> It still makes me laugh to remember it.


I closed my eyes!!!!! Lalalalalala...
105. mcrbryant

No idea why men shout at women in the street but Eddie Izzard does a VERY funny sketch about it (and also about how the same idiots shout at him for wearing a dress - he is a transvestite ), anyway here is a transcript but it is much funnier when he does it in person:

”And they shout at women as well, I don’t know why they shout at women. “Oy, darling! Oy, darling! (cackles) Oy, darling! (cackles again) I told her too! Yes…”

I think there’s an idea of trying to chat up women, that’s what it is.

“Oy, darling, you and me! You and me! You and me…”

And if one woman ever did say, “Okay, let’s go now!” I think that would totally freak him out. (freaked)

“She said yes! She said yes! That’s not the deal, she’s not supposed to say yes. I don’t know what to do! Have you got any instructions?”
Philbert de Zwart
106. philbert
107. birgit
Salidar. Birthplace of Deane Aryman, the Blue sister who had become Amyrlin after Bonwhin and had rescued the Tower from the ruin Bonwhin had poised it for.

Nice foreshadowing of Egwene's future starting in Salidar, with the Deane parallel.

And Elaida had a picture of Bonwhin in her office to tell everybody that she is incompetent and will be replaced by the Salidar Amyrlin.
108. CJB
Re: the next chapter

Is that the one where Egwene threatens Nynaeve with rape in t'a'r unless she stops being so uppity?
Lannis .
109. Lannis
RobM @ 93: BAhahahaha!

Birgit @ 107: So that's why she hung it... I just thought Elaida had a thing for antiques. ;)
Blake Engholm
110. UncrownedKing

Wait....What? does that actually happen? I have had a few rereads now and I do not recall such a thing.
Michael Catapano
111. hoping
Didn't she threaten N with a cup of bad tasting brew? The memory is a little fuzzy.

In the next chapters, Eg does make a nightmare of two men attacking N to teach her a lesson about TAR. Forgot about that.
112. Rand Al'Todd
Re: Catcalls -

1st point -
I'm not a catcaller, wolf whistler, etc. Never have been. However, I, being male, have always considered such to be something of a complement to the recipient. Several of the women here have commented that they accept them as such - at least to a degree.

But girls, especially if you say you don't like it - Flip it a little - You're going down the sidewalk, the guys at the corner are whooping it up over three girls in front of you, then are silent when you go by - NOW which is more insulting - the catcall/whistle or the silence????

2nd Point
@66 Ammbd said

"i will add that having been wolf whistled at from time to time, when it's all in good fun - it's fine.

it's the times, when it's not at all in fun - that it's not fine."

Ammbd's comment has a bit of a hook in it. Most of the time, it is in fun if a little crude. But who decides if it is not in fun???

Answer: The girl!!! Who may just not be in the mood, but who may be walking alone and feel more threatened, even though nothing is different from five minutes ago when a group of three girls went past. OR who may have been victim of a rape attempt some time in the past and therefore might be overly sensitive and fearful about the situation. And you can't tell if she is going to be upset until AFTER the whistle/comment.

My observation is that while this behavior sometimes happens "on the good side of town", so a woman can't always avoid it, MOST often it occurs in "certain parts of town." That being the case, it also means that these are locations with more chance that someone may DO something beyond whistle, and are therefore more cause for worry on the girl's part.
113. CJB
She does force Nynaeve to drink a nasty cup of tea, but she also conjures a couple of men to appear and start ripping at Nynaeve's clothes until she begs Egwene to make them stop.

Even if Egwene might have stopped them eventually without the begging, that's still a totally fucked up thing to do.

To be honest, I think I'd rather be friends with Semiharge than Egwene.
Michael Catapano
114. hoping
It was a very effective lesson, tho. N needs to know the downside of TAR. Perhaps a lesser demonstration would have sufficed, I agree.
Blake Engholm
115. UncrownedKing

It would be better to be friends with Semi then enemies, one would think. I remember this now. Amazing how much your mind can forget after 2 months and a session or two with Frank Herbert (Never read past Dune, EVER) and RA Salvatore.
O wells.

I will agree that Nyn needed the wake up call. Somone needs to beat that girl sensless from time to time. She becomes more fun to read when she gets the mental-spanking she deserves.
116. alreadymadwithharshlessons
No.... These girls need to be taught the fear of god.
Come on! Several brushes and they have yet to learn caution. Not to mention gratitude to those who rescue them.
Harsh? I think the lesson is. But considering these girls, I don't think a lesser lesson would have worked.
Brian Kaul
117. bkaul
Gratitude? Nynaeve said "thank you," didn't she? What more can we ask for? ;)
Deborah Jones
118. NanaD
Egwene tried to tell Nynaeve that TAR was dangerous, just as the Wise One tried to tell her, neither would listen so an object lesson was needed. Harsh, yes. Effective, definitely!
A little caution goes a long way.
Maggie M
119. Eswana
Master Al'Thor @87:
Here's my 2 cents, perfectly expressed in this excerpt from a friend's blog (sorry about the length, but I think the context is important):

"While at the mall, Jenna and I stop in The Buckle, where my current beau is working. Somehow his and my how-we-met story is brought up, followed by my boy’s bashful admission that I am entered in his cell phone as “Hot Katy.” I giggle and blush approvingly, flattered of course – but then proceed to analyze with Jenna after leaving the store about this label’s implications.

Of course “hot” can’t just be taken for face value – that this kid finds me attractive. End of story. Does hot mean sexy? And if it does, does sexy mean sexual? Exuding sexual vibes, like I want sex and lots of it? Does it mean that I look easy or loose? Or does hot just mean attractive? Well if it does, then why couldn’t he have used a less loaded word – one like pretty, or even beautiful?

Jenn and I agree that we like those words better, especially “beautiful.” Because, while guys seem to think that all of the above adjectives are interchangeable, we as girls recognize that each one holds a very different meaning – notably that “sexy” and “hot” objectify women more than “pretty” and “beautiful” do.

Sexy and hot are Playmate of the Month words, whereas pretty and beautiful imply a level of respect for the fairer sex, are more feminine, soft, and complimentary to the delicacy of being a girl. So boys, take note: if you want to appeal to a girl’s animalistic, sexual side, go ahead and call her “F*cking hot!!” If you want to appeal to her as a person, as someone to whom you are attracted, but also respect, call her beautiful. She’ll blush, I promise.

So essentially, not all compliments are created equal. Speaking only for myself of course, not the entire female half of the species, but there's a big differance from being called pretty or beautiful while being hit on a party or a bar (hopefully by someone who has spent at least two minutes getting to know me as a *person*) versus being catcalled by someone who's doing it not to flatter me or express his appreciation for my beauty, but to show off for his friends or cover up for his own insecurities.

Okay, I promise I won't post about this anymore. Dead horse. :-)
Michael Catapano
120. hoping
(sorry already mad)

It is not about being complimentary at all. It is all about power, which the group of guys have and the solitary female does not. It is meant to be intimidating and is always offensive.

(I thought I saw the horse take a breath so I gave it an extra shot)
Jason Deshaies
121. darxbane
@113 I agree Egwene over-did it a little, but to be compared with Semirhage? Using fear to teach a lesson (especially one that could save your life)is nothing compared to keeping someone alive and sane for 5 years just to hear them scream. In fact, if I was being a careless moron, I would expect my truest friends to do whatever they could to make me realize it. A little fear now can prevent a lot of pain later.
Tess Laird
122. thewindrose
About Nyn getting the harsh TAR lesson. I believe Egwene received a similar lesson from the Wise One Dreamers. So, given Eg's proclivity to become what she is learning - wise one dreamer at this moment- it makes sense that she does this, even if it seems quite radical to us, the audience.

And poor Bela, stop beating her - she's not dead and it hurts;)
Tony Zbaraschuk
123. tonyz
The only major complaint I have about the Gareth Bryne/Siuan romance is that we're very distant observers: we're told there is an attraction, but it never really gets shown in enough detail to be real. (To be fair, the last five books probably could have used some pruning anyway, so I'm not really asking for yet another set of chapters to be added.)
124. alreadymadwiththanklessgirls
bkaul @117
Thank you for saving us. You should not have followed us because we are on Aes Sedai business. Don't count on us staying out of trouble because we are the Supergirls. Nothing can stand in the way of our stubbornness. And since we are thanking you now, we are in no way obliged to be grateful the next time you save us. So just sit there and stay out of our way.

tonyz @123
Yep. All we get are hints of Spanking. Yummmm.
Alice Arneson
125. Wetlandernw
I just had a thought... I know RJ said he never changed anything he was going to write just because of what he read/heard from readers. But I have to wonder if he got that same reaction this bunch had on the Perrin/Faile/Ways episode (or other similar ones), and decided to include a gracious plenty scattered through the rest of the books just to yank people's chains. I know he liked to tease people when he thought they needed to lighten up... I wonder if this was one such case. :) We'll never know, but I like to think so.
126. herbaliser
re: catcalling, hoping @120 nails it. A single woman walking by herself, even getting honked at in broad daylight can be intimidating.
127. Freelancer

I warned you! Stick to Bob Salvatore, and avoid Herbert. In fact, after the last time you brought it up, I pulled out the Dark Elf Trilogy and started over. And I guess only a guy with a name like Salvatore can create characters like svirfneblin or duergar.

Drizzt is the bomb.

So was Paul Atreides, but Leto II? In Leigh's words, Eurgh.

RE: The very-close-to-dead horse

A general rule I teach my son and other kids who will listen. If you'd be upset to see it done to your mother, grandmother, wife, or daughter, don't do it to another female.
128. cps2195
in regards to catcallling:

This seems highly unlikely to work. 99.999% of the time it won't help get you laid. If you do happen to find a women this works on wouldn't that make you have second thoughts about her? It is almost guaranteed that you wouldn't be the first random stranger she hopped into bed with. All I know is I wouldn't want that taint on my saidin.
129. Master Al'Thor
Thank you one and all for the insight.

Eswana @119

Seriously? Calling a woman hot does refer to her as being sexually attractive, but it also refers to her outward beauty. Men do not use beautiful or pretty to describe someone who they clearly think is better than that. Fault men or the english language as you wish.

Before I got married if I refered to a woman as hot, it was meant as the highest form of appreciation. She had a physical beauty that pretty or beautiful just couldn't cover.

Think of it like this. Beautiful is a dress or a painting. Pretty is your sister. Hot is earth shattering 9 or 10 out of 10.

Now a hot girl may have a crappy attitude and no personality, but men (not all) tend to be shallow and can let that slide as long as they get to "be with" them.
Deborah Jones
130. NanaD
I have been reading all the comments about the catcalling and just wanted to say ,not all the women being harassed are young and slim or hot. Old fat ugly women have been the object of this behavior also. There was nothing complimentary about it.

And Master Al'Thor I think of it like this:
Beautiful is a woman you respect. Pretty is a woman your best friend should date. Hot is how they make you feel.
Brian Kaul
131. bkaul

Exactly. I'm sure that was her internal monologue, at least.

I think Nynaeve is more annoying through this stretch because we have to see her obnoxious, arrogant thought process. If it was all Thom & Juilin POVs, it'd be a little easier to give her the benefit of the doubt. I do like her elsewhere in the series when she's going around with Rand and helps cleanse Saidin, etc. but here, she could stand to be a little less self-centered.
132. Master Al'Thor

I never thought of it that way.

The hot is how they make you feel part.

But shouldn't women still like to be seen as or thought of as hot??? And if so, what wrong with telling them so.

Catcalls are bad. Wolfwhistles bad. Telling someone they are hot is bad???

My male brain does not understand this. If someone said I was hot, I would probably gush like a schoolgirl.

I get that saying a woman is beautiful scores major respect points. But how can saying OMFG you are sooooo hot be a bad thing?
Maggie M
133. Eswana
Master al'Thor @ 132
I promised I was done with this. Sorry I lied. But briefly:

I don't find it horrible to be called hot. It can be flattering, depending on the context and who says it (eg, if my boyfriend calls me hot, that's okay. He knows me. He knows that there'e more to my personhood than a set of boobs).

However, "hot" usually translates to "wow, I really want to get in your pants." Now, that's not necessarily bad either, especially given what almuric explained up @ 24 (=men are evolutionarily designed to want to have sex with pretty much anyone, anywhere, anytime). Great.

However, calling a woman "beautiful" is far more complimentary. Beautiful, at least to me, says, "You have lots of incredbily nice physial attributes, and in addition, I see that you have a quality of inherent dignity and worth that is awesome. You're not like the Playmate I'm going to fantasize about merely because of her body, but rather you're someone I would appreciate spending time with, which might include having sex or not."

Does that help?
134. alreadymadwithcatcalling
Freelancer @127
Good rule to live by.

As for Drizzt. He's good. But over the years, the books on him have turned formulaic.
Insert awesome swordfights.
Insert Monologue.
Insert more awesome swordfights.
Insert crisis of character.
Insert awesome swordfight with big bad.
Insert monologue.

For somebody who grew up in a morally "flexible" society, he's got way too hangups.

I was actually glad when Road of the Patriarchs came out. Finally, someone other than Drizzt.
James Jones
135. jamesedjones
133 Eswana

Inherent Dignity? I have never intended to tell a woman that I thought highly of her and her inherent dignity when I refered to her as beautiful. Most of the rest of your description was pretty close (that's pretty close as in really close, not pretty close as in my friend should date close). But, seriously, we guys do not put that much though into our adjectives and adverbs.

I am so very grateful for the information and assistance in communicating with the opposite sex. We all need it, on both sides. It just does not seem to be getting us anywhere in this particular discussion. Like most guys, I use the easiest and closest word that comes to mind at the moment. (The safest one I've found happens to be 'lovely') But your friend's beau put a handle for her in his phone. I've got a $200 phone, and I still have friends that I can't fit their entire name in the field. "Hot" is the easiest to type, spell, say, find, and remember on a phone. And, if he was willing to show it to your friend, then it wasn't intended to be degrading.

Poor guy.

Edit: this post was one that I really tried to avoid posting, and I hope it did not come across as offensive (especially to Eswana, who has been very kind and objective in her comments).
Jason Deshaies
136. darxbane
By that definition, we are now unable to use the word beautiful for someone we just met, because it is impossible to know whether you have anything more than physical attraction to them until you get to know them. Thanks a lot! :)
I'm sure every time you see an attractive guy the first thing you think of is "oohh, I wonder if he is a Wheel of Time fan". We all objectify to some extent, and physical attraction can trump just about anything. Until they make an outfit that only makes you look hot to people you find attractive, we are all gonna have to deal with the occaisional unwanted complement. This does not mean I condone harrassment, that's different.

My last point: If you really wanted to ensure your personality was what people noticed, wouldn't it make sense to dress in the homeliest possible outfits? There'd be little danger of objectification if you wore a poncho everywhere.
137. Master Al'Thor
Eswana @ 133

Sorry can't let this go.

It does help some but your example in which your b/f calls you hot is not fair. He knows you. I thought we were talking strickly about first impressions.

In which case you could be called hot and be offended just because the guy didn't know you.

I am not saying women don't have the right to be offended. Feel how you want. But is it wrong to tell someone that they are hot?

I just don't see why women would be put off by this. Am I just being stupid or thickheaded?
Tess Laird
138. thewindrose
darxbane @ 136
I'm sure every time you see an attractive guy the first thing you think of is "oohh, I wonder if he is a Wheel of Time fan".
ROTFLMAO at work:)
How about girls can use Yum or Very Yummy - because we don't really know if that guy over there is a nice guy, but he sure looks yummy;)
139. Kaboom
On the hot topic (pun intended)

I'm a woman, and since the beginning of this thread, I have tried to figured out what I feel about it. I honestly cannot say. I think it is very situation-dependent.

But I also honestly believe that guys will not say "beautiful" in these situations. At least not these days. It would be way too long to say. People these days always take the quick way to say things. Just look at the acronyms in this board! Or SMS.
Genevieve Williams
140. welltemperedwriter
Yeah, but Kaboom, I was hearing stuff like this before the invention of SMS, so I don't think that's it.

Context matters. Here are a few contexts in which I've received catcalls:

- group of half a dozen construction workers, when I was walking alone in my own neighborhood less than six blocks from my house. I was fourteen, meaning that these men were old enough to be my father.

- out the window of a car at a shopping center near my house, when I was about 16. A grandfatherly man standing nearby told me that I should expect that kind of attention.

- again out the window of a car, three blocks from my house. This particular instance was long and obscene, AND my mother overheard it.

None of these made me feel complimented. Every one of them made me feel small, afraid, and ashamed for existing. All (and I think this is important) occurred before I turned 18. So guys, really, if you MUST do this, can you can the four-letter words and be reasonably certain that the object of your admiration is over the age of consent?

Now, leaving aside how my personal experience is certainly biasing my reaction to this discussion, I'll go ahead and add that to me, compliments--if that's what they are--like these presume a certain level of intimacy. I will accept them and consider them flattering from my husband and close friends (male or female, by the way).

The rest of you should be courteous enough to introduce yourselves first.
Alice Arneson
141. Wetlandernw
Beautiful is a woman you respect. Pretty is a woman your best friend should date. Hot is how they make you feel.

Exactly!!! Well said.
Hugh Arai
142. HArai
Kaboom@139: Trying to think of something to say that would be so much quicker to say than "You're beautiful" that I would actually notice. If a person is so speed-obsessed AND content-free as to care about 2 syllables while speaking, isn't just groping more efficient? Not that I suggest or condone that in any way but the person's priority is obviously not communication.
143. Kaboom
welltemperedwriter @140

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough.
I was not referring to catcalling, but rather to the example that someone gave about calling his girlfriend hot rather than beautiful (with the cell phone), hence the "hot" topic.

I just don't see guys in general saying "hey you're beautiful".

But that's just my opinion, and I did mention that it was situation-specific.

Again sorry for the misunderstanding.
Maggie M
144. Eswana
It's really okay guys, don't be so worried :-) Not offended, just offering 2 cents (or probably up to a whole dollar at this point). And no, Master al'Thor, you're being neither stupid nor thickheaded.

Desperately trying to bring this back to WoT (which is after all the reason we're here! Not that discussing gender politics, spanking, and torture isn't fun and all....):

Let's use my favorite WoT couple (Nynaeve and Lan!) as an example.

When they first meet in tEotW, Lan would have to be blind not to notice that Nynaeve is a beautiful woman. He doesn't know a thing about her at first except that she likes pulling her braid at people. However, by the time they're in the Blight, he's gotten to know her and has a lot of respect for her. So, when tells her that she's " beautiful as the sunrise" he means it. And all the women swoon. He also includes in his list other things he likes about her- she's brave, she's clever... etc.

It wouldn't have been inaccurate for Lan to call Nynaeve beautiful the first day they met. She is beautiful, and it would be nice, even if that's all he know about her. So you're right- I don't think a guy has to carefully think before complimenting, "Now, do I think this woman is someone I want to marry?" in order to compliment her? Of course not. Goodness, that would be a lot of work and a lot of guys freaked out if that were so!

I guess what I meant by what "beautiful" means to me as a woman (which, again, could be different for any other woman you ask) is that it implies a certain level of respect that's lacking in "hot." Hot doesn't always mean "objectified," certainly not. But beautiful is a far nicer alternative to hot in my opinion . Someone else might feel differently, and that's totally okay.

It's like swearing. Nynaeve, for example, (especially in the early books) jumped all over everyone all the time for their language (especially Mat and Uno!) Elayne, however, loves adding new words to her verbal arsenel and wouldn't be offended in the least if she heard someone swear around her. The ways in which people respond to different descriptions is very very individual and relative.

Whew, this is a far cry from the catcalling discussion we started with!
So in the end.... just be nice to people and all will be well. It's all about the love!
145. Kaboom
Harai @ 142

I guess a part of my point was that I find that good communication is not a priority as much as it used to be. (maybe also a point of RJ).

This may be ironic coming from me as I'm obviously not very good at communicating my thoughts, but hey english is not my first language. It's always hard for me to be clear.

(but I still like to give my opinion once in a while :) )
Luke M
146. lmelior
Re: hot vs. beautiful
It's definitely a maturity thing. I don't believe I thought of anything as beautiful until I was well out of high school. Or if I did, I didn't actually ascribe that word to it mentally. Too many syllables, I think. Girls were hot chicks and other stuff that was pleasing to the eye looked cool, awesome, or sweet. Words like "pretty" and "beautiful" were too girly or mushy. Come to think of it, the word that was popular when I was in high school was probably more offensive - "bangin'."

I think darxbane @136 may have hit the nail on the head. I can definitely understand feeling unsafe or uncomfortable, but perhaps some women are just offended because they know the men are picturing them having sex, and they don't like their own mental image of it.

Anecdotal evidence: In the Twilight movie, and there is a part where two girls are trying on dresses and a group of guys sees them and knocks on the window, one says, "lookin' good", the others are whistling or laughing, etc. The main character says, "that's disgusting" and the girls give each other uncomfortable looks. I asked my wife why that was disgusting and she said, "I don't know, maybe the guys are disgusting?" She takes such things as compliments though.

Also, point of note: I avoid the term "catcalling" since it is defined as a deliberately rude or derisive remark. When I think of catcalls I think of NanaD's post @130, calling others fat or ugly. My experience in school was that girls did this to other girls far more than the boys did.
147. RobMRobM
Eswana - As you recall from the Baerlon chapters, Lan first noticed Nynaeve based on her excellent tracking skills and no doubt said (off camera) that he liked that she was "hot on his trail."

P.s. That was a beautful post you made there.
Alice Arneson
148. Wetlandernw
Master Al'Thor

Regarding "hot" as a compliment... it's mostly a matter of perception, but I guess it depends on your purpose in giving it. If your goal is simply to express your reaction to her, use whatever word you want. Oh well. On the other hand, if you really want to make a woman feel complimented, you need to think about how SHE will take it more than how you meant it.

As to "hot" specifically, it still depends on who it's coming from. From my husband, no problem (although it's not really his style; he's much more poetic than that). I can't really explain why but it carries a much more sexual connotation than beautiful, pretty, or lovely. (Good choice, jamesedjones.) Probably partly because it's a relatively new use of the word (i.e. slang) which frankly feels a lot less flattering. Also, to me "hot" implies just a bit that you think I look like I wouldn't mind jumping into bed with you (or someone) on little or no acquaintance. I'm not saying that's what you mean by it, that's just the feeling it gives me. So... telling me I'm beautiful makes me feel complimented. Telling me I look like I'm easy... not so much, thanks.

Again, all just my opinions.
Dan Sparks
149. RedHanded
So where does intelligence and personality fit into this?
I'm not against complimenting someone on their physical attractiveness, which is almost as subjective as you can get, but at the same time I try to not focus on it. I know I want an intelligent woman who knows what she wants and if all I do is compliment her or other people on their looks then I'm only going to find people who like to be complimented on their looks or at least really like compliments, right? I guess my point is, that I don't really see the point.

Hey you are beautiful/hot/pretty...whatever. Ok so who wants unsolicited opinions? Obviously from a boyfriend/husband/girlfriend whatever these are fine even though I'd think that someone is attracted to you if they are in a relationship with you. I don't know maybe it's because I don't handle compliments very well and don't take them too seriously.
Hugh Arai
150. HArai
Kaboom@145: If English is not your first language, you do an excellent job of sharing your thoughts in my opinion. Far better than I can do in any language other than English, unless my thoughts happen to be solely about food, washrooms, shelter or booze :)

I definitely agree that RJ is making a point about people needing to communicate more. It's probably the one thing in the books I wish was less true to life, because it happens so often and it irritates in the books almost as much as it irritates me in real life.
151. Kaboom
HArai @ 150

I have worked very hard at it, and I'm fine writing in English for science purposes (part of my job),
But I'm still uncomfortable in other purposes. The spell checker function really helps though!
Jason Deshaies
152. darxbane
I certainly respect your opinions, but I wonder why "Hot" means the guy thinks your easy? It has been my rather unfortunate experience that the hotter I thought a girl was the LESS likely she was to sleep with me. I guess the reason why guys are perplexed is that we want to have sex with you no matter what word we use. No offense, and not trying to be a pig, but that's what testosterone does. We can respect your intellect, style, humor, think you are the greatest human being who ever lived, but deep down.....It's why we don't live as long, if you ask me. Oh well, time to go home. Thankfully, new chapters tomorrow.
Kevin Morgan
153. DrMorganstien
I've got another survey question, if I'm allowed to ask one.
What are the user's first languages?
I've honestly never looked at any post on here and thought to myself that the poster's first language was not English, which I do think a lot in a auditory communication.

Mine is English (actually, its little bastard cousin American, at least the way I speak it)
154. Freelancer
My last point: If you really wanted to ensure your personality was what people noticed, wouldn't it make sense to dress in the homeliest possible outfits? There'd be little danger of objectification if you wore a poncho everywhere.

My first impression is that you meant this as an extreme example to prove a point. But the truth is, this is exactly correct. A woman who wants more than her body to be noticed during a first encounter should allow for her other attributes to be more prominent. I expect I'll get a grilling for this, and I promise, I am not slamming how any particular female feels like dressing, but it isn't false that women's clothing gets the response it deserves. (Men's too, of course)

If the clothing leaves little/nothing to the imagination, that will be the center of focus of men's eyes. Modest clothing will force men to focus on "the person", not the flesh. Modesty doesn't demand a poncho, though. Modest dress can be flattering without being revealing.

RedHanded makes an excellent point. To a great extent, one's behavior will dictate the sort of person they are likely to "catch". It took my brother almost 15 years and nearly a dozen discarded relationships to figure out he wasn't going to find the kind of woman he wanted in the places he was looking. Call it a generalization all day long, and it was still the truth of his experience.
155. Master Al'Thor
Eswana@144 and Wetlandernw@148

Thank you both. You have answered my questions as well as they can be answered.

Wetlandernw you in particular make it very clear this is about how the object of the attention feels more than how the person saying it means it. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Eswana I really appreaciate your candor and the way that you expained your point of view. It made me think and question the motives behind all of this. Good example with Lan and Nyn.

Both of your husbands should be proud to have you as wives.

Harai very good job on your English. Keep up the good work.

Again thank you all for your insights. I have a lot to teach my kids.
156. Kaboom
I think this (second) survey a good idea, as I have ofter wondered about that.

For me, I'm a french Canadian, which is not quite the same language as French from France (but obviously a "cousin").

(and for those who know Canada, not Quebec french either)
157. Master Al'Thor
Sorry Kaboom I confused your post with HArai's.

Your English is well thought out. And keep up the good work.

You too HArai if English isn't your first language.
Or even if it is.
Alice Arneson
158. Wetlandernw
Hey, I've gotta say that even though this topic is not very WoT-related, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. We have something extremely rare here - an honest attempt (from a bunch of folks who really don't even know each other! Wow!) to understand how other people feel about a fairly sensitive situation. As someone pointed out earlier, guys (generalization alert!) have a tendency to pop out whatever pops into their head as a compliment, without putting a lot of work into it, and figure it should be taken as it was intended. Girls (generalization alert!) tend to analyze the whole thing to death, trying to figure out exactly what he meant by what he said, and whether it should be a compliment or an insult, and what he expects her to do about it, and on and on. So we're (generally!) coming at it from different perspectives. We've done a lot of this here, but this is one of the occasions where it's not a hot debate, but a hot topic where we're really trying to understand. Or at least, some of the guys are trying to understand how women react, and some of the women are trying to help... ;)

Oh, and I have to say... My husband's take on trying to understand women goes something like this: When you look at the order of creation (assuming you believe the Biblical account; the rest of you just play along for the moment...), each thing created got more complicated than the last. Light, lights, water/earth, plants, fish & birds, animals, man... and finally... Woman. So logically, it's unrealistic for the less complex to think he can fully understand the more complex... So women can understand men, but men can't understand women, and there you have it.

It makes a good theory, anyway - and great fun to discuss over good wine! :)
159. Master Al'Thor
Ditto to Dr. Morganstein

I speak American. It would be nice to speak another language too, but alas I have not the time nor inclination to learn another at this point in my life.

Wait does toddlerlese count???
Dan Sparks
160. RedHanded
@154 Freelancer

Agreed that if a woman is wearing a revealing outfit that she should expect to be looked at...I mean why the hell are you dressing like that otherwise? Because you like it? Well imagine a "hot" guy wearing revealing clothing, should he expect a woman not to look? Modest clothing could work for sure but.....I also think it has to do with who you meet, I mean some people place more emphasis on wanting someone who looks good and are willing to overlook some intelligence and personality deficits than others are. I personally don't care how someone dresses, I care about how they act and what they have to say. (I guess if you dress like a clown though I would probably treat you like a clown). :)
161. Master Al'Thor

Oh my (wiping tears from eyes) that is hilarious.


Still laughing. Tell your husband he got it.

As well as try to understand the sun.
Alice Arneson
162. Wetlandernw
darxbane @152
I certainly respect your opinions, but I wonder why "Hot" means the guy thinks your easy.

I'm not really saying that's what he means, I'm just saying that's my gut reaction to it. It's what comes across to me, whatever he intended by it (which might be nothing of the sort).

Master Al'Thor @155
You're welcome - and thank you. You summed up my point much better than I did. :)
Sam Mickel
163. Samadai
I can recall only 1 experience I had w/ catcalling. my friends and I were driving thru the university area, passing a group of girls and we all stuck are heads out the windows and catcalled. To this day every time I drive by women on the street all I can think is what a jackass I was then. It makes me sick to think about it. It was the only time I ever did it and I never went anywhere in a car with those people again. We scared those girls and I am very ashamed of that. I actually wrote a letter to the school newspaper and apologized to those girls for my stupidity.
Maggie M
164. Eswana

Or, you could say that you really need a rough draft before you make a masterpiece... ;-)

For the survey- I'm American, specifically Midwestern dialect. I took French in high school and college but don't speak it well anymore (I can sort of write it and read it fairly well)
165. alreadymadwithmorecatcalls
DrMorganstien @153
English would be my 3rd language, actually. My first two were local dialects.

Wetlandernw @158
Your husband would fit right in with the inhabitants of Randland.
166. RobMRobM
Survey says:
- American (lived in Massachusetts virtually entire life but have no local accent - beaten out of me at college)
- speak and write un peu de francais und ein bischen deutch.
- however, I am fluent in Ubbi-Dubbi for those who were fans of the US show Zoom in the 1970s.

Deborah Jones
167. NanaD
Samadai, good for you. Our world and Randland would be a better place if we all could admit when we are wrong and learn from our mistakes.

For the survey- I've been told that I speak Southern English. I speak toddlerese also.
Jay Dauro
168. J.Dauro

I have already forwarded your husband's comments (and it was all to women friends... what does that say about me?)

Native language: American. Or as close to it as we speak in Alabama.
Richard Fife
169. R.Fife
Survey: Real American (Midwest dialect)
Michael Catapano
170. hoping
survey Amer New Yawk with a smattering of Klingon (linguistically derived from Brooklynese, I'm told)
Hugh Arai
171. HArai
Survey: english Canadian (Western dialect)

@Kaboom: Is non-Quebec Canadian french as different from Quebec french as Western Canadian english is from say... Newfie?
172. CalaLily
I wrote an essay on the correlation between how a person is treated and seen, their personality, and the types of clothes they wore.

:D Yay two cents time!

I'd feel most comfortable with being called "hot" if it was someone I knew; i.e best friends, sister, etc. In fact, I'm only ever comfortable with the word if it's applied from a female perspective. I mean, if one of my guy friends called me hot, awkwardness would ensue.

Now, me and my friends giggling over a cute guy and saying he's "hot" doesn't bother me in the least. Call it objectification of men, but from what I've read, guys don't really mind being objectified. If you go back to biological programming, then a female thinking a male is attractive is a good thing for the male, because it means he's one step closer to ensuring the next generation.

Women need emotional connection. Men are prone to just the physical side. For a man to call a women "hot", "bangin'", "smokin'" or any derivative thereof where she can hear is ignoring the fundamental foundation women want and need for any sort of relationship. In essence, it makes men look shallow, piggish, and gives the impression they don't think with the brain in their skull.

And we all know that that's the completely wrong impression. :)

Survey: Georgia peach, here, ya'll. ;D . Makes for an odd combo when you think Mat has an Irish-ish accent and Tuon's from downtown Houston, Texas. xD

173. Kaboom
HArai @171

@Kaboom: Is non-Quebec Canadian french as different from Quebec french as Western Canadian english is from say... Newfie?

I guess that would depend on where in Canada you are.
French in some places in Nova Scotia (acadian) I can't understand at all, but for mine is not so different from Quebec. Although some expressions are totally different and of course the accent.
174. Freelancer
::paints a big fat target on his back::

My first language? Valley Dude. But not like you heard in the songs and movies. The "totally" authentic version. Ya'know, '70s surf puppy an' all. Rippin', gnarly, tubular, the works. All y'all got it from us. But hey, yer utterly welcome! Literally!

At the same time, I've always read anything available, and there was plenty of Asimov, Bradbury, Vonnegut, Van Vogt, Clarke, Verne, Norman, Anderson etc. lying about. Far too heavy for my age, but then how does a pre-teen know better? So my exposure to a vast vocabulary sometimes made it difficult to maintain the "style" of my peers.
Hugh Arai
175. HArai
CalaLily@172: I don't know if I would say I don't mind being objectified. I like being appreciated for my intellect and personality. I would say it's more that men are less likely to be made uncomfortable or feel threatened when made aware that a woman finds them physically attractive.
Sam Mickel
176. Samadai
Northwestern united states English, Spanish, can spell my way through sign language, and of course Tolkien Elvish
177. Freelancer

Interesting. I think of a Moroccan accent when I think of the Seanchan, not American South.

Maybe it's because I know a Moroccan lady who fits Tuon's description very closely (no shaved head, but she keeps it pulled back tightly). When she speaks English, it's slow, and the words all slide together, so to me it fits.

And since we're still on the gender thing...

Women tend to be more integrated, so the emotional and rational aspects of the personality are inextricably involved and combined. When speaking or listening, there is more of an undercurrent of concern with how the receiving party will take what is being said. (Unless you're a Duopotamian Wisdom)

Men tend to be more compartmented, allowing one portion of their personality to take a dominant role at times with virtually no input from the other. In general this makes men less sensitive, more aggressive, more aloof. (Unless you're a yellow-eyed blacksmith)

Current science claims that, during fetal development, males experience the release of a chemical which interferes with connections between the two halves of the brain, resulting in the above described differences.
178. Freelancer

Or, you could say that you really need a rough draft before you make a masterpiece... ;-)

Uhh. Hmm. ::shrug::

Hey, wait just a minute there! ::cries the rough draft just before the masterpiece next to him elbows him in the ribs::
sandi vogel
179. sinfulcashew
I hope I remember this right: RobMRobM
"I am fluent in Ubbi-Dubbi for those who were fans of the US show Zoom in the 1970s."

I dislike-read hated-that ubbi dubbi talk. My granddaugher liked the show and I liked it also, but for the 'talk'. It drove me nuts and they sounded like idiots. IMHO!

As for the 'hot' talk, said GD uses it to express her opinion of a boy, 'He's hot!'
She's TEN! No use splainin' anything to her. She watches TV.
Do we get to blame Parris Hilton for this atrocity?

I haven't been hooted at for so long I can't remember what it is all about?
At the time I think I appreciated it in that it meant I looked nice? that day!

Now I would think they needed glasses.
Gray hair, extra tubby, etc.

I speak the language they speak on TV, no matter where they come from. It always puzzled me that everyone spoke what I grew up with and even went to classes to get rid of accents. Weird?????

I am finishing up KOD. Lordy, but there are a lot of plot lines getting revved up for the big finish.
There is more jumping around than in any other book, I think.
Roger Powell
180. forkroot
For the survey -
First language: Perl :-) OK... American English

Missing from the above discussions on being called "hot" (or whatever) is that in the real world there are all sorts of additional clues (tone of voice, body language, etc.)

A man can call a woman "hot" in an obviously light-hearted and complimentary fashion. Or he could do it in leering, degrading fashion. Same word, but the tone etc. makes all the difference.
Luke M
181. lmelior
Standard American English. Sadly, like most Americans that's all I got. I can pick up bits of Spanish and make some rough basic conversation, but not enough to be bilingual. I also like to insert certain French, Japanese (mostly from anime), and Korean phrases into my normal speech, along with the usual German and Latin loanwords like schadenfruede and caveat. Just a wannabe multilingual here. Well, to be fair, I do speak C++ and Matlab quite fluently too. ;)

EDIT: Drat, forkroot@180 ninja'd my nerdiness.

As far as accent goes I had a NY accent when I was very young but lost it long ago. I've been told I have no discernable accent.

I'm curious to know the specifics of what "Midwest dialect" entails, as Wikipedia considers it standard American English. Some northern cities have a distinct dialect (in Cleveland, it's, "oh my Gad"), and a friend of mine from another part of central Ohio never pronounces the long "e" sound ("still" instead of "steel"). Some people from eastern Ohio just mispronounce specific words instead of entire sounds - where I mostly grew up a few people say things like "crick" instead of "creek" and something like "warsh" or "wursh" (though the "r" is not so pronounced as Goofy might say it) instead of "wash." I guess I still say "pop" instead of "soda," though I usually refer to the specific soft drink.
James Jones
182. jamesedjones
174 Freelancer

I'll forgive you this time, but you don't want to go around telling any Texans: "All y'all got it from us." Most of us in the south would take a little offense at the attempt to claim a term we've been using for well over a century.

Y'all just be careful.
Luke M
183. lmelior
@182 jamesedjones
That reminds me of one more funny Midwest word. A childhood friend of mine used to say "y'ins" or "y'ins guys" with the same meaning as "y'all." Has anybody else heard that one?

EDIT: Turns out this is Pittsburgh English
Richard Fife
184. R.Fife
Watch something streaming from here. In general, though, the english you here on most nation-wide news programs is "Midwest" English. It got to be the "main" dialect of american english because honestly, its the easiest to understand. Its about mild-speed, and has the most phoneticly correct enunciation (no warsh, Mina-sooda, or yawl.) Also what people talk like when they aren't supposed to be from anywhere specific in movies.

Interestingly, I feel like this trend is going away, though, as "folksy", er, dialectic accents are becoming more used, both in news to relate to teh viewer and make the anchor more "interesting", and in entertainment to add an extra layer of characterization and story telling.
Alice Arneson
185. Wetlandernw
Samadai @163
...I am very ashamed of that. I actually wrote a letter to the school newspaper and apologized to those girls for my stupidity.

All I can say is, it takes a man to do that. I'm proud to be your neighbor.

Go Light.
James Jones
186. jamesedjones
183 lmelior

My favorite has to be the plural you from the far north east. "Youse" always sounded somewhat off, yet at the same time, exactly as it was intended. IMHO.

Just sat down and finished the prologue and first chapter of Warbreaker. This thing is so much better in hard copy. I was simply never that impressed with it on MS Word.
sandi vogel
188. sinfulcashew
I found a recipe for Schadenfruede Pie! Is that the same thing? What does it mean?
The pie has Kahlua in it, so that makes it a keeper for me.

Now we can share our favorite recipes????(haha)
Lannis .
189. Lannis
Hey all... sorry I haven't added much to the conversation, though it's been fascinating from the sidelines.

re: the whole "hot" conversation... I agree with whomever mentioned verbal tone. The delivery of the compliment makes the compliment. And the delivery infers respect, as well.

As for the second survey: First language Canadian English (little brother to the British). A smattering of French from school, which did nothing but embarrass me on a trip to Paris, even though in Canadian schools it is Parisian French that is taught (completely different than Québécois French). Ah, well... long story short, never slur fraises into fesses. Whoops!
John Massey
190. subwoofer
Subwoofer/ 10 foot pole /"hot" topic. Not gonna do it. Respect Bela too much.

um... Dialect- When I'm not reading this, I read Chris Newman, Ester Friesner, Pratchett, Louis L'amour, and Peterson's Bowhunting. Throw in random assortment of tech mags to keep me plugged in.

WoT related, read through the bit where Egwene is monkeying around in Gawyn's dreams. The bit where he dreams about beheading Rand for the usual reasons. Then he tells Egwene she's hot and they start kissing.;)

Anyways- just thinking that Galad was loopy over Eg too and if there will be some brotherly friction- er...sword fighting and blood shed and stuff. And back to the whole Gawyn being a doofus and not hearing people out before passing judgment on Rand. Other side of the coin- why would Rand take it? Why not turn Gawyn into a turnip and put us all out of our collective misery?

edit- @sinful- hoot:)
Alice Arneson
191. Wetlandernw
Why not turn Gawyn into a turnip and put us all out of our collective misery?

Can he do that? Oooooohh!
192. alreadymadwithplantingturnips
He can make a flower out of dustballs. I'm guessing he can probably figure out how. Whether he actually will though, is an entirely different matter. He probably blames himself for not moving on Caemlyn sooner. Like before Morgase got offed. Which she wasn't. So in his slowly going insane mind, he as good as killed her himself.
So now Gawyn blames him for killing Morgase, which he didn't. And he blames himself anyway for her being dead, which she isn't.
193. Valan
My first language is Texan, real Texan, you can't say Texas English because its like saying The Murdered English Language.

...and if you're from Texas you prolly dig that statement ;)

2nd language is English, which I speak to this day. (Though admittedly the accent does come out a bit when around others that speak it profusely.)

3rd language is what I like to call Restaurant Spanish. Its where you can't communicate, so you then find meanings of certain words of the language of individuals you work with in the restaurant, and form your own TexMex/English/Spanish dialect. (Though in my experiences most of this comes to fruition while getting plastered at the bar with your buddy. The result of this is you basically only learn insults, food, alcoholic terms and very basic phrases)

On the whole "hot topic", hmmm. It does seem to me tone would have everything to do with a woman's reaction. I've found this to be true of everything that comes out of my mouth, though.
sandi vogel
194. sinfulcashew
I just 'got' it! too funny!

(wink wink-nudge nudge!

A whole lot a Canucks on here! A close friend of mine is returning to his roots. Canada of course.
Alberta-Saskatchawan, I believe.
195. SusanB
First language...American English, slight NY accent

As to the "hot" debate. I'm apparently the odd woman out. On my wedding day I wanted people to think I was beautiful. Most of the rest of the time I would prefer to be thought of as "hot". Beautiful is too mushy & it implies knowledge of the individual's total self (personality, intelligence & looks). I think as a compliment from someone you don't know "hot" is more appropriate b/c it addresses only your looks. I do agree with others that tone matters too.

And IMHO any woman wearing a short skirt or a low cut shirt, absolutely wants people to look & appreciate. She probably went through 4 or 5 outfits before deciding on that one, because she thought she looked "hot" in it. I think its completely unfair for women to expect to wear such things & not get comments on it. (They should not be stalked or touched, but I don't think comments should be forbidden. I think we've taken the whole PC thing too far). Now, if you are wearing a poncho down the street & get "hot stuff" comments, then I think you can get upset.

As for personal experience...I've been whistled at on the street more than once (but don't recall if any verbal comments were made), and I've gotten hot/sexy/beautiful type comments from random guys in bars. (Personally, I felt the guys who called me beautiful were trying to "get in my pants" where as the ones who called me "hot or sexy" were just commenting on my appearance). Lastly, the most outrageous/extreme "compliment" occurred when I was in Rome walking through a church...a random guy grabbed my ass as I passed him. I was shocked at first, but then laughed about it a few minutes later. It was bizarre, funny & I choose not to take offense to it. I wouldn't want that to happen regularly, but it makes a funny story. At least to me. From reading all the above, I guess most people would be upset by it. I'm not really sure what my point is, except maybe that everyone is different & everyone reacts to situations differently.
196. Branwhin
Lannis@ 189

ROFLMAO!! No, don't do that. That could get either humourously nonsensical or really lewd, really quickly.

I'm Canadian also, first language English. I do well enough en francais, though I virtually never get any practice. I also have a few words of Welsh (oddly, as I've an Irish and Scottish background). My Latin is horrifically bad.

I have my own silly translation story, actually. I was getting ready to go to France, and I thought, 'what better way to prepare than to read books I could quote backward and forward in French translation?'

So I was still at home (not, thankfully, on the plane), and I couldn't resist cracking open "L'oeil du monde," Well, we all know how the prologue to The Eye of the World goes. Horribly tragic, everybody dies except somebody we're *really* wishing would die.

I had forgotten, or perhaps I never knew, that one French word for 'lightning bolt' is 'eclair.' The only eclairs I recall hearing of are those yummy pastries with chocolate and whipped cream on top.

I don't think, until that moment, that I had ever *literally* rolled on the floor laughing. Some tragedy.
197. CalaLily
Freelancer@177: I've always associated the Seanchan with sort of a mixed, heavy African-accented tone until I read this:

"In March of 2000, Paul Ward received a letter from RJ in which he listed what some of the regional accents of Randland sound like:

* Two Rivers - Irish/English
* Illianers - Dutch
* Aiel - somewhat Slavic
* Tairen - Spanish
* Domani - Indian
* Saldaean - Egyptian/North African
* Seanchan - Texas

("Y'all bow down to the Empress, y'hear?" - Johan Gustafsson)"

After that, no matter what I did, Tuon sounded a bit like Dolly Parton in my head. .-. Less giggly, though. A LOT less. Maybe an angry Dolly Parton.

Selucia sounds like Reba McEntire. :)
198. Kaboom
It's nice to see a lot of canadians on the site.
But I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow to hear about europeans or asians. I'm really curious to see how many there might be.

Since people are talking also about second third languages, I will add:

First: Canadian French
Second: English (not too bad now except for conveying feelings or complex ideas)
Third: German (certainly not fluent but enough to get by in Germany where I lived for a year and to read).
Sean Banawnie
199. Seanie
@197 Calalily :
Too funny !
Illianers , I figured for kinda Greek, Domani Italian or Spanish. Never pictured Seanchan as Texan....I kinda thought of them as mixed ---oriental and something else ---
I was just reading my daughter a bed time story and its funny occcured to me: I am originally from Philly , later, after living in upstate Pa while at Penn State , I moved to South Jersey eventually and now in Lancaster county Pa which is Pa Dutch country . Each of these areas have a distinctive accent .
I have acquired phrases more so than an accent . At least to me. I can turn it off and on more or less (depends how silly or hammy I am being) I guess. here it is " Welll noww ,dontcha know ....
feel free to slur heavily . :)

@199 Kaboom:

Haha -I have a hard enough time explaining feelings or complexities in any manner let alone another language. ;)
200. HurinSmells
RE: Hot, catcalling etc
When a group of guys is hollering at a girl all they're after is a reaction to let them know they've been heard, it doesn't really matter to them if it's positive or negative. To them it's just like going fishing, it doesn't matter how many fish you catch, it's just something to do with your mates.

There's two ways to deal with it, ignore it and not take the bait, or confront them and tell them all to drop their pants so you can get an idea as to whether they're wasting your time or not (if anyone has ever actually done this, you're my personal hero).

As to using the word hot, there's no cut and dry answer. Some girls might prefer to be called hot, some might prefer beautiful. Chances are if a guy that prefers the word hot finds a girl that likes being called hot, they're a good match. Personally I can't see how anyone would want to be in a relationship with someone who didn't think they were hot! As well as beautiful, pretty, cute, funny, smart, etc etc.

Also... from Australia, speak English. And I always imagined the Seanchan with a Japanese accent, Illianers as Scottish, Tarabon as Indian, Tear as Spanish, Lugarder as Cockney English and Domani as Middle-Eastern.
sandi vogel
201. sinfulcashew
I never thought of the countries in Randland as having different accents. Just the slower drawls or faster speech of the same language. Kind of like the usofa having accents from the different compass points.
Just goes to show you how slow this particular nwsterner is.
I just wanted to find out what's next?????
202. Wolfmage
Re: Hot debate. Grr die! :(

“Re: the next chapter

Is that the one where Egwene threatens Nynaeve with rape in t'a'r unless she stops being so uppity?”

That’s the one after the next one. There is “Meetings” and then "What Can Be Learned in Dreams" – the two Chapter sequence where Egwene overtakes Nynaeve and shows she’s a complete douche along the way.
John Massey
203. subwoofer
Internet was down- and the world didn't end!

@sinful... wink,wink, nudge,nudge, say no more:)

12 years of French immersion taught me one thing- how quick it is to forget a language if it is not a part of your daily living. My wife is trying to teach me Polish, but I am mangling it so badly that she has passed the torch to her little brother.

My Spanish consists of dónde está el cuarto de baño? And una cerveza por favor? um... and ella está caliente. :) - all the Spanish I needed to know I learned in Browsville.
204. The Ninth Horse
Survey says:
I natively (my spell checker suggests "naively" instead) speak Midwesterner American. Despite classes in French and Spanish in school, I only know those about as well as I know Dutch, German, Latin, Yiddish, and Greek, which is to say I can understand a little here and there, but that is all.

@181 lmelior
I guess I still say "pop" instead of "soda," though I usually refer to the specific soft drink.
Isn't "pop" more international where "soda" is American?

Re "hot" and this might put the last nail in the coffin:
When I use slang "hot", I mean especially desirable, especially, but not exclusively, in appearance. That said, I almost never use it to refer to humans, so maybe it is just that I am weird.

Bill Reamy
205. BillinHI
2nd/3rd survey: Less than 4 years old in WOT. First language American, retain a bit of my Russian from Air Force/DoD days, and maybe a few words of my high school french. Originally from the Baltimore (MD) area but now can't hardly stand to hear the really broad Balmer-ese accent, though I never had it and don't know why I don't like it any more. The few times I have heard myself recorded, I sound like I have a southern accent and REALLY don't know where that comes from.

Hot debate: Totally agree context is everything. You must know your audience, so to speak.

Nyn definitely needs to be taken down more than a peg or two, but Eg definitely came on too strong with the unwanted attentions from two men. But both are definitely getting better and will continue to do so, even though they backslide at times.

Related to the language issue(s): I've done some editing at various times and it always grates somewhat when I see some of the all-too-common misuse of words: effect/affect, the various forms of they/they're/there/their, loosing/losing, etc. Just one of those little things that drive me up a wall sometimes. /end rant
206. The Not So Dark One
For the Survey:

I'm a scouse. Which to those of you across the pond means Im from Liverpool, England.

A friend of mine was recently in Florida and was asked where he was from - "England" he replied - "what language do you speak there?", he was asked.

On Egwene, someone who would stage/ mock up the attempted rape of their friend aint no one I'd like any kid of mine hanging round with - underlying moral message or no underlying moral message.

As for those guys on here who do not have English as their first language - it's not been noticable, and your English is far better than my french, petit pois, bonnet de douche.
craig thrift
207. gagecreedlives

You work in the field of science and you call yourself Kaboom?! Hahahaha I love it

I can barely use the English language proper like let alone trying to learn another language. Although I can decipher out some words in german.

The Not So Dark One@206

“A friend of mine was recently in Florida and was asked where he was from - "England" he replied - "what language do you speak there?", he was asked.

Reminds me of when I was in New Orleans. I met a lady on hearing my accent asked where I was from. When I said Australia she claimed to never have heard of it.

But she did provide me with my first serving of gumbo so I forgave.
Alice Arneson
208. Wetlandernw
BillinHI @205

So TOTALLY with you on the common misused or misspelled words. For those with English as a second language, it doesn't bother me, but otherwise... Ack! And you picked my two greatest pet peeves in the language, I think. In order. :) I'm sure my next three or four posts will have spelling errors just to make me eat this, but I obsessively check my text before I post to make sure the spelling is right and any grammatical errors are done on purpose and for a specific effect. I try hard to refrain from correcting others, except sometimes with the names... (Juilin and Mat are always the killers; people keeping typing Julian and Matt. Argh. I worked SO HARD to get Juilin right!) Sometimes I just can't help it.

Okay, so I'm a bit OCD on some things... ;)

On a completely unrelated subject, what happened to aiel1219? We haven't seen him since TSR, I think.
j p
209. sps49
BillinHI @ 205-

Chair Force, huh?
210. stylusmobilus
Anytime I hear the word 'hot' used in that fashion, I think of Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie....'woooowww, he's so hahhhht....'

It's hard, for us in Australia. We have a mixture of girls here. Some girls are totally lacking in class, some are one of the blokes, and quite a few like to put on airs and graces. A bloke can call one girl an absolute piece of arse and get knocked on his then say it to her gurlfrund and she loves it.

Nynaeve strikes me as the type of girl who would crack you with a 4x2 if you said it to her, but I think Elayne would lap it up bigtime. She knows noone will be game or drunk enough to pull it on when she's running Andor so nows the time. Rand might want to be careful with her, she might feel that since he's shagging two others, it should be ok for her to have a bit on the side. Which is fair.
211. CJB
Sorry if I'm dragging up an almost dead discussion, but...

If I'm remembering this correctly, Egwene wasn't even initially intending a lesson, she just wanted to keep Nynaeve from noticing/commenting on something (can't quite remember what though).

Judging from her giddy joy upon waking, Egwene enjoyed it a fair bit and seems to enjoy occasionally using Nynaeve as something of a punching bag throughout the rest of the series.

At least Semiharge is honest about her sadism.

The survey:

Being English, my first language is pretty obvious, but I also have a decent understanding of foreign tongues such as Scouse & Geordie. Glaswegian still eludes me though.
212. Freelancer

Ahh, someone from a place where ladies are commonly referred to as "sheilas" and "birds" must take care when getting into a gender-based discussion, lest they accidentally lob a grenade or two, eh mate?. Just kidding.

But you're totally out to lunch with your comment about Elayne wanting "a bit on the side", or that it would be "fair". That's flat ridiculous. They all love each other. Which of those characters has had a tryst out of pure lust? Which of them seems likely to out of jealousy?


Seriously, are we related? Don't think it OCD to insist on accuracy. It isn't, when applied to yourself, and as long as you don't get on others about it, you aren't compulsive, just observant. Even if you do get on others occasionally, it wouldn't be compulsive, depending on how obnoxious and common the errors were. Sometimes you need to speak up or just pull hair, and I haven't enough left to be going there. The one that gets me the most is using "of" instead of "have", as in: "I should of known better." Talk about a ::headdesk:: inducer.

Feel better?


Interesting list, thanks. Surely can't argue with the Creator, but I work with quite a number of Dutch folks, and I cannot for the life of me reconcile the Illianer idiomatic with a Dutch accent. Welsh, perhaps.


You forgive me? Pfffft. There's more than one way to say what is spelled as y'all. And I don't mean the Texish yaawll. I can offer you at least seven different versions of y'all. Memphian, Kentuckian, Ohioan, Georgian, Alabaman, Flo-idian, are each distinct, even from the Texish version. Well, the Left Coast version is clearly different as well. Dude.


MatLab, eh? A language for where the rubber meets the road, indeed. Your nerdiness is intact, be assured.


Egads, Zoom. 1970s, are you sure? I remember my daughter watching that show, and she was born in the late '80s. Still, I always thought of that ubbi-dubbi speech as a rip-off of Bill Cosby's Mushmouth character. Or from his dentist visit sketch:

"Yoube seebe thibis? Thibis is mybe bottom libip!"
"Smobuke! Smobuke! Smobuke! Fiber! Fiber! Thebir ibis fiber ibin mybe moubeth!
213. birgit
If I'm remembering this correctly, Egwene wasn't even initially intending a lesson, she just wanted to keep Nynaeve from noticing/commenting on something (can't quite remember what though).

She doesn't want to admit that she is in TAR without permission from the Wise Ones.

I'm German. English is my second language, I also learned French, Latin and a bit of Spanish at school, and Japanese and Chinese at University.
craig thrift
214. gagecreedlives

sheilas?! Struth mate are you fair dinkum? I havent heard any bloke say that in a donkey's age
Michael Catapano
215. hoping

re N assault by E
I just looked at the chapter (in next post.) E continued the lecture Melaine started on the dangers in TAR and N was not listening. E just wanted to get her attention and gave a frightening demonstration of what nightmares were in TAR.
Sorry to get ahead of the re-read.
James Jones
216. jamesedjones
212 Freelancer

You're not the only one who loves accuracy and headdesks at unobservant mistakes. What I said was, ' don't want to go around telling any Texans: "All y'all got it from us."' And then I went on to identify it as a southern term. We, of the southern twang, have been using it since before California was part of the US. But you make my argument for me. This, I don't mind. What I mind is folks making up arguments for me. Please don't do that.
217. Freelancer

Deadset and dinki-di, cobber. Hey, check the lone-star ocker big-note himself in a bodgy blue. He's on his tickets, eh?
James Jones
218. jamesedjones
217 Freelancer

Yup. And always. LOL

Spanish won't work, either. You'll have to go French on me.

But I don't mind. The first comment was me making a funny. The second? Meh. Just had to be said. Bodgy? To anyone not from Texas, probably. No worries.
219. alreadymadwithgrammartalk
Now we're on common grammar problems.

could of being mistakenly used instead of
Very common error. I don't know what to make of it.
James Jones
220. jamesedjones
208 Wetlander

Seriously, what happened to Aiel1219??? He might have enjoyed this...
221. Aye Aye Sedai
Re - EG / NYN - if its is not physical attack can we perhaps not use the term "Rape" as this has a lot of other baggage - it is a very loaded term and we should not be too casual with it, Not sure EQ would have let NYN be truly violated - but remember with these stubborn girls that they will not listen to words of advice but have to experience the anger before they believe it.

Re languages - at least there is no Cockney slang - that reall drives me crazy.

On a different note - if you approach an AS with open arms; etc claiming that you mean no harm to them can they use the One Power on you? Or is this a violation of the Oaths? (BA are excepted) IF they are not in fear of their life and you can disarm the warders and are known not to be a Darkfriend - I would think that they could not use the power to attack - and possibly not defend.

Can this be applied to the Damnae ? IIRC that they can not Compel an AS to utter a Lie but can they use the same to attack?? What rationale can they use to circumvent the OP???

In The two rivers they were certainly helpful in building weapons of mass destruction and directed the construction if they did not build it directly - and of course that knowledge can be shared to others - would a loittle creativity to use oil and gunpowder instead of the OP for the effect.

Another side note - Many times Rand comments on Lanfear coming and going with out feeling Saidar - is she using the True Power like Moridin?

Are we certain that Moraine only knows of the Lanfear battle from the Rings and not from the Snakes? In hindsight it is the tragic setup of accepting her fate but setting up the best potential outcome - notice that she places a bracelet in a specific spot for Lanfear etc. But she is not positive which of the many scenarios will work. Im guessing that Lanfear had to be killed - probably by the Foxes in order for her to be reborn - not sure if we learn that she made a deal to escape as part of the Bargain. IF she made deals what were her other trades for?

HMMM maybe Lanfear was determined to eliminate Asmodean as her vengeance - but then she would have had to have been in the Lanfear guise for him to recognize - hmm we only had a few players on stage with the potential to use the True Power or TAR to appear silently. Although there could be another hidden spy - but I believe we can rule out Mog and Semi as suspects - recall semi would torture and not kill him and Moggy is captive.
222. AYe Aye Sedai
That should state - experience the Danger not the Anger :)
223. Aye Aye Sedai
I also meant to say OR (oath Rod) and not the OP in the above comment- when discussing attacking with Damnae who were once AS.
224. alreadymadwithapproachingAS
Aye Aye Sedai @221
Approaching Aes Sedai with open arms would probably be enough to dissuade them from using the Power on you. Some might just see the fact that you are powerful enough to disarm Warders as proof that you are a threat. They would probably wait until you actually prove you are out to harm them. What proof they will take as valid is the real question.

Even when collared the damane cannot use the OP except in defense. That's one of the drawbacks several Seanchan POV's make note of. They can still make pretty skylights and do Healing.

On Lanfear coming and going without Rand noticing, I'm thinking she's just using that weave that hides her strength. In KoD, Nynaeve and the others also use it and Rand also never notices they're already holding the Power.
Tess Laird
225. thewindrose
Survey #2 - 19 years old
Survey #3 - American - mid-west dialect Mi segunda lengua es el español.
Funny story - I had an Australian professor for
Labor Econ. She introduced herself, and than said that we might find her dialect fascinating at first, but it would start grating on us after awhile. I don't know why she said that (maybe she heard mid-westerners unequivocally hear only mid-west dialect).
Still off Wot but on the hot button topic - most of my classmates were male, and they thought that not only was she(hot) but she had a super sexy voice. And... I think they attended class more and were always asking questions, which was humorous to me because in other classes they were not as attentive.
Also on Wot -
#122 thewindrose(quoting myself, because I seem to remember this)
About Nyn getting the harsh TAR lesson. I believe Egwene received a similar lesson from the Wise One Dreamers. So, given Eg's proclivity to become what she is learning - wise one dreamer at this moment- it makes sense that she does this, even if it seems quite radical to us, the audience.
Joseph Blaidd
226. SteelBlaidd

Regarding the discussion of whether or not cat calls are "complimentary," the above comic illustrates the point that part of the reason for all of the old rules that got thrown out in the "Sexual Revolution" was to clearly establish the context of thes kinds of interactions. They, in effect provided a common context and value for certain kinds of expressions of interest.

We each still have all the contexts, ass illistrated by the comments in this thread, but now we each have to establish or reestablish the other persons context on a case by case basis.

Jordan, I think, was well aware of the problem of conflicting contexts for insult and compliment as he uses it constantly in the various relationships between people raised with different courting rituals, the Perrin, Faiel, Berilain triangle being the most blatant example, but Mat hits it coming and going with Tylan and Tuon, Rand with MAE in part because he either follows the procedure without knowing (Aviendha), is operating out side the know script (Eayne) or not following any sort of "courting standard" at all (Min who moves from Acquaintance to Wife with no intervening steps and without informing Rand.
227. The Not So Dark One
Cartoon Funny
228. CJB
221 Aye Aye Sedai

I certainly never meant to use the term rape in a casual way, and I apologise profusely if it seems that way and if I've offended anyone.

That said, I have to disagree that it wasn't a physical attack.
Jay Dauro
229. J.Dauro
@221 Aye Aye Sedai

We need to be careful.

1) To speak no word that is not true.
2) To make no weapon for one man to kill another.
3) Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.

The Oaths do not say that AS cannot produce weapons, just that they cannot use the One Power as a weapon except in defined circumstances, and they cannot make weapons for man to kill man.

So they can make weapons to kill trollocs. They can tell men how to make weapons to kill men. They can use the one power to kill trollocs.

I made the slip with the killing of Alruc. An AS could kill him with a knife, just not with the One Power. (I am not saying an AS did, just that they could.)

However I do agree with AM... . If you managed to disarm my Warder, I would probably consider that a threat.
230. Freelancer

You won't take it wrongly if I simply say you'll have to go French on yourself, no parlais. (In your words, it had to be said)


There are two things that for me provide the very strong implication that Moiraine's knowledge of the incident on the Cairhien docks comes from Rhuidean.

1) The question she would have asked the snakes to get this answer would have been very dangerous with its proximity to the Shadow, and I don't know that the Snakes would comment specifically regarding a forsaken even if the question weren't about them.

2) Her dramatic shift in behavior, from almost passively observant to urgently begging Rand to listen to her advice happens post-Rhuidean. The beginning of her comments such as "you won't have me with you always", follow her trip into the rings.

Regarding the Oaths, no matter who you are or what you have said, an Aes Sedai may employ the Power as a weapon "in the last defense of her life, or that of her warder, or of one of her sisters". As has been stated, where that line is drawn is subject to the individual Aes Sedai's perception, so there is room for variance, but there is no room for deceipt. She could not lie even to herself in believing that she is in danger when she is not.

Regarding Lanfear, I think her suspicion as Asmodean's killer has been pounded into the dirt long ago. But then, there are still Taimandred believers, too.
232. Kaboom
Free Lancer @230

Regarding Lanfear, I think her suspicion as Asmodean's killer has been pounded into the dirt long ago.

Can you give a short summary of this discussion, or at least a conclusion as I did not see it.

Helen Peters
233. Helen
232 Kaboom
Coz Sammy did it, that's why

For the survey, Real English, as in Queen's English, and as we said when we were little... like wot the queen taught us :)
sandi vogel
234. sinfulcashew
You guys must be clogging up the Tor site! I couldn't even get on it an hour ago.
Now it didn't want to load my log on. I hope it's nothing personal.

212. Freelancer:
I think it started around then (70's)and then ran alot of reruns? I think? Or did it just keep on filming?
My GD watched it when she was 5 or 6.
Is it gone now?
I know they ran alot of Electric Company for awhile.

I'm still waiting for the Shadenfreude? explanation here! I can't remember who started that.

I have notice that I remember page locations of where I was reading when I get interrupted. I thought every one did that? Otherwise my photographic memory never did develop properly. (is that a pun?)

The new post better be up soon. I may be able to come up with something relevant then.

235. RobMRobM
Free @212. I'm the Zoom/ubbi-dubbi guy. Subo, hubi Frubeelubancuber! (Harder to say than to spell.) Yes, it was on in the 70s when I was a kid, then revived for a few years in the late 90s or early 00s when my kids were little. But no I did not send in anything to "Box 350 Boston Mass 0-2-1-3-4."

Hugh Arai
236. HArai
Regarding the Oaths, no matter who you are or what you have said, an Aes Sedai may employ the Power as a weapon "in the last defense of her life, or that of her warder, or of one of her sisters". As has been stated, where that line is drawn is subject to the individual Aes Sedai's perception, so there is room for variance, but there is no room for deceipt. She could not lie even to herself in believing that she is in danger when she is not.

I don't have the text with me, but there was one section in KoD, where Annoura (to me at least) appears to do exactly that when facing the Shaido. She claims she feels threatened and goes to channel, the others look at her, and she looks embarrassed and doesn't.

sinfulcashew@234: Also having issues with the site. As for schadenfreude: it is the pleasure taken from someone else's misfortune.
sandi vogel
237. sinfulcashew
You guys must be clogging up the Tor site! I couldn't even get on it an hour ago.
Now it didn't want to load my log on. I hope it's nothing personal.

212. Freelancer:
I think it started around then (70's)and then ran alot of reruns? I think? Or did it just keep on filming?
My GD watched it when she was 5 or 6.
Is it gone now?
I know they ran alot of Electric Company for awhile.

I'm still waiting for the Shadenfreude? explanation here! I can't remember who started that.

I have notice that I remember page locations of where I was reading when I get interrupted. I thought every one did that? Otherwise my photographic memory never did develop properly. (is that a pun?)

The new post better be up soon. I may be able to come up with something relevant then.


edit: wow, the site is taking forever to load. I'm not sure this is even going to get up there.
posted at 1:23 and now it is 1:44 and let's see if it gets there any time soon!

Keep getting 'network timeout'
sandi vogel
238. sinfulcashew
I wondered what was going to happen with all the times I tried to post. At least it was just one double.
239. alreadymadwithbreakingsite
HArai @236
That's peer pressure. Annoura by herself felt threatened enough to channel. The others were not. The Aiel weren't anyway.

I think the site's broken again. LTT's voice is getting louder...
break it break it break it
Pablo Defendini
240. pablodefendini
Yes, we're having issues with our server. Rest assured, it's not your doing—you ain't broken shit.

Patience, we'll have this sorted out sooner rather than later.
Hugh Arai
241. HArai

So you're saying her decision on whether the situation is "in the last defense of her life" is decided by peer pressure?

Better change that oath to "will use the One Power as a weapon whenever it's not socially embarrassing".
242. RobSS
Is it "Post Time" yet????
Kurt Lorey
243. Shimrod
Ok. Who broke the site - again?

sinfulcashew. Google schadenfreude. Even misspelling it would have gotten you there.

Man. Have I missed some interesting interplay. Lose one's DSL for a few days...
Roger Powell
244. forkroot
HArai@241 LOL - Thanks for a good chuckle.

I too had experienced a lot of trouble with the site, but it seems that Pablo has it covered now.
Lannis .
245. Lannis
@ Pablo... careful... that might be misconstrued as a challenge. :|
Alice Arneson
246. Wetlandernw
HArai @241
So you're saying her decision on whether the situation is "in the last defense of her life" is decided by peer pressure?

No, for purposes of fulfilling the Oath, she felt threatened enough that she could have used the Power. Her decision not to do so was determined by peer pressure; the Oath wouldn't have stopped her.
247. toddywatts
On approaching an Aes Sedai with open arms...

Just because you have open arms and you declare you are not going to harm her does not mean that you are honest. It would really depend on whether or not the AS really believed what you meant.

That being said, there are still other options available to her. She could just as easily wrap you in air to keep you from advancing or taking any other action.
Hugh Arai
248. HArai
Wetlandernw@246: I understand the argument, I think. I just can't accept the conclusion. Or at least I can't manage to be as weasel minded as Annoura. I take "in the last defense of her life" to mean "there is nothing else she can do to avoid being killed". Perrin's discussion with Alanna about the Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers comes to mind. How Annoura takes it is apparently "if there is some conceivable way the people I want to fireball might hurt me". She can't possibly be convinced that it's the last resort to defend her life because she then _doesn't do it_. Although I guess she could be deciding to commit suicide because last resort channeling might embarrass her?

Edit: Another contrast - the Aes Sedai (Bera and Kiruna?) that have to ride into the midst of the Shaido in LoC before they can channel.
249. alreadymadwithnitpickingoaths
HArai @248
Those two were nitpicking then. As Perrin points out in ACOS, they just wanted to get to Rand ahead of everybody else. If they really wanted to channel at the Shaido, they could have done so any time without having to close in. After all, it was an Aes Sedai encampment that the Shaido had surrounded. And they could just have sent their Warders without actually going themselves.
250. Pendragon
Where do todays post be?
Maggie M
251. Eswana
alreadymad, when I first saw your handle I thought it said, "alreadymadwithnitpickingoats." You could take that as a statement about sometimes-goat-brained Aes Sedai.... or just that I, like Aberforth Dumbledore, find goats simply fascinating (as long as they're not in my apartment, like Ted Mosby).

You do keep us quite entertained around here!!
Antoni Ivanov
252. tonka
They would never part from their Warders.Not to send them to potential death so that only they can channel safely. The notion is ridiculous to contemplate even!
Brian Kaul
253. bkaul
Survey: US English, standard Midwest

@203: soda vs pop: The former is a word that refers to carbonated beverages. The latter is an onomatopoeia, which in certain regions of the US is used to refer to the aforementioned beverages due to the sound the old corked glass bottles made when they were opened.

An interesting note on the Third Oath, as regards shadowspan and darkfriends: In New Spring, when we see Moiraine taking the Oaths, the relevant oath is worded:

Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister.

But in The Great Hunt, when Sheriam is explaining the ter'angreal to Nynaeve (Ch. 23 "The Testing", p. 282), she says:

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadow spawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.

So, did RJ change his mind on Darkfriends between writing these two books? Does a later reprinting of TGH modify that quote? Which is officially correct?
Maggie M
254. Eswana
Or, Sheriam herself classifies Darkfriends as Shadowspawn. That's a matter of subjectivity too. If I'm an Aes Sedai and I *know* that someone is a Darkfriend and is going to committ an evil act (ie, slaughtering kittens, etc), is it within my Third Oath to use the One Power to prevent it, or not? Whereas, if I saw a Myrdraal walking down the street eating icecream, it's not committing an evil act at that moment, but it's still Shadowspawn, so it's eligibe to be balefired?
Jay Dauro
255. J.Dauro
@253 bkaul

I can't really say, and I do not know if "darkfriends" was added in a reprint.

Or it just could be that the AS decided to add something to a 3000 year old oath in the last 20 years. Well, maybe not, if AS have been wearing Red Socks for 50 years, we can't change. It would be unthinkable.

And of course NS was written after TGH.

I guess we will never know.


James Jones
256. jamesedjones
254 Eswana

But everyone knows that ice cream is pure evil...
257. alreadymadwithsistersindanger
tonka @252
True. And I didn't say they had to do that, only that the option existed. Besides there were still all those sisters, surrounded by thousands of violent, black-veiled Aiel savages.
Brian Kaul
258. bkaul
I'm sure "Darkfriends" was there originally. I'm wondering if it was removed in a later reprint, after New Spring was written. The NS version is much more restrictive than the one that includes Darkfriends.
259. toddywatts
Is it fair to the ice cream vendor to balefire the Myrdraal?
Hugh Arai
260. HArai
alreadymad@249: Good points. Defending the life of another sister would have worked. Oh well. It's not like another example of why a person shouldn't have any respect for the three Oaths is a surprise :)

In any event, if some can equate "last extreme of defending your life" and "I feel threatened" in their head, any sensible person would just assume they will attack you with the power. "Aaah! *balefire*. Ooops sorry about your cat...".
261. toddywatts
Maybe Sheriam was paraphrasing?
Shaylyn Austin
262. Ispan
With Darkfriend added in, would this mean that an Aes Sedai could torch someone as long as THEY believed the person was a Darkfriend? It seems similar to one Aes Sedai feeling threatened enough to attack/defend when the others nearby do not.

If I were an Aes Sedai I probably would've wrongly whacked a decent number of characters in the series so far... oops!
Sam Mickel
263. Samadai
Local ice cream vendor sitting around talking to his buddies. I swear to the creator I just sold an ice cream to that fade. I was so scared that it was going to kill me but instead it hjust ordered 2 scoops of rocky road in a waffle cone. It started to walk down the street and there was ahuge column of fire, the fade was gone and the ice cream was back in my hand.
His friends. man your crazy a fade eating ice cream, you need to give up the brandy
Tess Laird
264. thewindrose
I think Sheriam was just explaining the 3 Oaths to the SG's(or one of them?). So, she did not have the Oath Rod in hand and say "repeat after me" and say the Oaths as they should be sworn.
Brian Kaul
265. bkaul
@261, 264: Maybe, but paraphrasing by adding a term to make it less restrictive? And the other wording is identical except for the switch from first to second person.

@262: Exactly - they could use the OP against anyone they were convinced was a Darkfriend, even without being threatened, if that's in there. I'm thinking maybe RJ realized later that it gave too much wiggle room and removed it.
266. toddywatts
Ispan @262
That's my whole theory of why psychic/magic/super powers don't exist. I would have blown up God knows how many cars on my daily commute otherwise.
Wheres the new post *Twitch*
268. OldWoman
Survey 2:
Mid-Western English
etc. etc. etc.
No one calls me 'hot' anymore and I do not miss it at all. I'm happy my granddaughters don't understand how the pre 60s world was for women. I have many stories.
Hugh Arai
269. HArai
toddywatt@266: All that proves is you don't have them :)

New post please?
John Pigott
270. AbEnd
Soda vs Pop vs Coke

"Pop" seems to be more prevalent in the northern US states (WA, ID, MN) and "Soda" elsewhere with "Coke" being a soft drink catch-all in TX.

"Y'all want a Coke?"
"Great, we got Big Red and Dr Pepper"
Jason Deshaies
271. darxbane
@266, They'd get the hint after a while though, wouldn't they? Seriously, though, it's all relative. All these amazing feats the power can do, and what is Rand most amazed at? That's right, the HORSELESS CARRIAGE!

Soda, Pop, Cola. I have heard them all, but I have one that seems to be restricted to the greater Boston area; Tonic. That's right, my wife and her family all call it tonic, and I had never heard it called that before, even though I live an hour outside the city. It took months for me to remember they didn't want tonic water
Roger Powell
272. forkroot
Yup, "tonic". I too heard that while growing up in the Boston area. You never realize how regional a term is until you leave home.

Sure was a shock the first time I left New England and tried to order a "frappe".
Alice Arneson
273. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @212
Seriously, are we related?
I'm beginning to think so!
274. darkstar
mice & figs: 1. smear the victims face with nice juicy figs. Be sure to get lots in the hair. 2. Place head in a roomy cage with door. 3. Insert 2-3 mice in cage.

Nine horse hitch: a mixed gender (and even species) orgy comprising of nine individuals. A fairly lewd one will include a German Shepard. An extreme one will include either a stallion or jackass.

Although I must admidt I was rather taken with the explaination of the 9 'orse 'itch as an STD as being rather good. youall vote
Wayne Wilson
275. stylusmobilus

Totally tongue in cheek, mate. As for having to be careful about comments, it sometimes works the other way round for us, in fact. Due to the sheila and bird thing, not a lot is expected of us in lieu of our comments, so we tend to get away with it a fair bit! Seriously though, most women in Australia are very down to earth and brush this type of thing off very easily. It is mentioned in the next part of the reread by SusanB that 'penis envy' is only the ability to pee standing up. That describes perfectly how Aussie girls see it, and with the same level of importance attached.
276. RobK
Just wanted to add a point re: whistling/calling at women in the street. In most cases, you'll find that men only do this in the company of other men, never while alone, and that the reason is therefore competition between men, rather than competition for women. i.e. it's a Red Queen behaviour driven in the main by sexual selection (evolutionary competition between members of the same sex).
Eric Hughes
277. CireNaes

Keep huffin and puffin. You'll catch up eventually.
278. s'rEDIT

I was amazed and followed with special enjoyment the analytical look at a"hot" topic without anyone getting hot under the collar about it. Very informational for both sides, I believe. You all are MoA!

@Freelancer212 and wetlandernw273

Exactly my thoughts since maybe the first posts. I just keep wishing I were caught up so I at least could chime in with a "Me too!" every once in a while.
279. s'rEDIT
@Freelancer212 and wetlandernw273

(RE: typos, usage gaffs , analytical outlook, classical music training , remembering and locating text , and last but never least: IXOYE.)

*Yeah, sorry about the double post and all . . . forgot to sign in, so I couldn't edit.
Alice Arneson
280. Wetlandernw
s/rEDIT @279 - Have I said before that I love your "name"? It cracks me up every time.

It will be great when you catch up - and since the reread is slowing down again, it should happen faster. I can always use a "me too!" :)
Deana Whitney
283. Braid_Tug
A minor point that got lost in the cat call discussion...
I think it's funny when E & N are talking about not going to the Tower until they know what's going on and "we should behave as though the Black Ajah itself has control."
Since at this point in the story, the Black do have control of the Tower.
And as of ToM, has Elayne been back to the Tower? I don't think so. She's only been back to the Tar Valon Tower in TAR.
William McDaniel
284. willmcd
Regarding chapter 12 and freelancer's comments @ 85: What exactly WAS the White Tower plot for the Murandy Border that was ruined by a random farmer? It tickles at my memory but I can't recall where we've heard about that.
Alice Arneson
285. Wetlandernw
willmcd @284 - The story is told in TFOH Ch 28. Briefly, there was a border dispute between Andor and Murandy; Bryne had sent troops to settle things down and stop the Murandians. However, the Aes Sedai had their eye on a young Murandian who was developing into a leader with the potential to unite Murandy, and they were afraid Bryne's troops would kill him. Because of that, Siuan ordered Morgase to order Bryne to withdraw his troops; when he objected, she raked him down for it. They "couldn't" give the real reason, and his objection was... inconvenient. What was really embarrassing was that, after all their maneuvering, the man was killed on a sheep raid by an arrow from an Andoran farmer.

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