Wed
Jun 3 2009 2:57pm
The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Fires of Heaven, Part 4

Oi, mates! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read. Today we are covering Chapters 6-7 of The Fires of Heaven.

Previous entries are Indexed here, and spoilers for this and all other currently published novels in the Wheel of Time series are sprinkled throughout; if you haven’t read, don’t read.

I apologize in advance for the commentary in this post, by the way. This week’s been a lot, and I was kind of loopy when I wrote a lot of this. Sleep deprivation sometimes results in Deep Thoughts, but more often it results in Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey. Guess which one you’re getting.

So, there’s... that. Onward? Onward!

Chapter 6: Gateways

What Happens
Rand wakes from a dream of teaching Aviendha to swim, sensing something foul coming from under the door. He stands, seizing saidin, and exits his room into the hallway, sensing whatever it was coming closer. He hesitates, and then decides to take the battle where the Maidens were unlikely to hear, as they would be sure to join if they were wakened. He grins and runs up to the top level of the building.

Striding to the center of the room, he planted himself atop the mosaic there, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, ten feet across. It was an apt place. “Under this sign will he conquer.” That was what the Prophecy of Rhuidean said of him.

A burned sulphur smell fills the air, and three huge dogs slide out of the shadows. Feeling a bit contemptuous, he calls up his fire sword and, as the dogs attack, swiftly slices them to bits. He laughs and lets the sword go, but his laughter fades as the body parts of the dogs melt and flow together, and reform into wholes again. Instead of the sword this time, he channels as he remembers doing once, and the dogs disappear in a bar of molten white light. One of the columns of the room collapses where the light had sliced across it, and a huge swath of wall is missing. He spins at the sound of Moiraine’s voice, asking if they bit him or bled on him, and asks if she is Far Dareis Mai now, that the Maidens let her in. She answers impatiently that she has some of the privileges of a Wise One, and asks again urgently if the Darkhounds got any blood or saliva on him.

“No,” he answered slowly. Darkhounds. The little he knew he had gotten from old stories, the sort used to frighten children in the southlands. Some grown-ups believed, too. “Why should a bite worry you? You could Heal it. Does this mean the Dark One is free?” Enclosed in the Void as he was, even fear was distant.

Moiraine tells him, no, Darkhounds are just another kind of Shadowspawn, but their bite is deadly, and their saliva and blood is poisonous; he was lucky there were only three. Usually they travel in larger packs. Rand realizes that he is not the only target possible in Rhuidean, and takes off running, ignoring Moiraine’s shouts after him. He dashes out of the building, ignoring Lan’s shout as well, and runs to a building on the edge of the city, where he sees three more Darkhounds clawing and snarling at a bronze door. Rand channels the white fire again, trying to make it less this time, and destroys the Darkhounds, and then pounds on the door, yelling for Mat to open up. Mat opens the door, wearing nothing but the foxhead medallion; Rand sees a blonde woman behind him wrapping herself in a blanket and hastily averts his eyes. He asks if Mat is all right, and Mat answers that they’re fine, and that it’s bloody hard being Rand’s friend sometimes. Rand tells him the Darkhounds are gone, and Mat groans that he didn’t want to know what they were. He scratches a red place on his arm, and comments that it’s funny, because he could have sworn that one of the hounds had chewed all the way through the door, but there are only small holes in it now. Moiraine dashes in, fuming, with Lan and a bunch of Maidens in tow, and Mat yelps and dashes back into his room to pull some clothes on, while Melindhra watches with a grin. He keeps scratching his arm, and Rand asks what’s wrong with it.

“I told you the mind plays funny tricks,” Mat said, still trying to scratch and pull at the same time. “When I thought that thing chewed through the door, I thought it slobbered all over my arm, too, and now it bloody itches like fire. Even looks like a burn there.”

Moiraine pushes past Rand and grabs Mat’s head in her hands, but instead of the usual reaction to being Healed, Mat shivers and pulls the medallion away from his chest, muttering that it’s ice cold, and asks Moiraine what she’s waiting for. Moiraine looks more startled than Rand had ever seen her, and says slowly to Mat that if the medallion is cold, maybe he should take it off. Mat frowns, but obeys, and this time Moiraine’s Healing works. Mat yells and complains, but Moiraine barely bothers to chastise him, staring at the medallion. She tells him to stay in bed tomorrow if he feels like it, and Melindhra assures her that she will see to it, calling Mat “her little mischief maker”. Mat looks horrified, and the Maidens behind Lan chuckle. Adelin tells Melindhra to teach him to sing; Rand tells them to let the man rest, but they still try to look in, laughing, until Moiraine asks them to let her and Rand speak alone. The Maidens start heading out, and Rand stops Adelin and asks how he can use them in battle if they won’t do as he says?

He did not intend to if he could help it; he knew they were fierce warriors, but he had been raised to believe it was a man’s place to die if necessary before a woman had to. Logic might say it was foolish, especially with women like this, but that was how he felt. He knew better than to tell them that, however.

Adelin is surprised, and tells him that in the dance of spears they will go as he directs, but this is not the dance; another Maiden adds that the Car’a’carn is not a wetlander king. They leave, and Moiraine starts to speak, but Rand cuts her off and says they can speak tomorrow, and if she’s thinking of trying to take that medallion away from Mat she can think again. He turns away, thinking there’s one other thing he had to check on. Moiraine says “please, Rand,” and the pleading tone in her voice stops him dead. Lan becomes angry, chastising Rand, but Moiraine cuts in:

“I will not be with you forever,” Moiraine said urgently. Her hands gripped her skirts so hard that they trembled. “I might die in the next attack. I could fall from my horse and break my neck, or take a Darkfriend’s arrow through my heart, and death cannot be Healed. I have given my entire life to the search for you, to find you and help you. You still do not know your own strength; you cannot know half of what you do. I — apologize — most humbly for any offense I have given you.” Those words — words he had never thought to hear from her — came out as if dragged, but they came; and she could not lie. “Let me help you as much as I can, while I can. Please.”

Rand tells her it is hard to trust her; she has handled him like a puppet from the moment they met, and he can only be free of her if he ignores her. Moiraine laughs bitterly, and replies it has been more like wrestling with a bear than pulling strings on a puppet. She tells him if he wants an oath from her to not manipulate him, she gives it; if he wants her to obey like the Maidens or even a gai’shain, she will, but she asks, humbly, to allow her to help him. Both Lan and Rand stare at her in utter amazement; finally Rand replies that he will accept her help, and apologizes for being rude. Moiraine loses her tension, and explains to him that he had been using something called balefire, which has been forbidden since before the Breaking; even the Forsaken were reluctant to use it, and the Tower refuses to even teach it. Rand points out that he thought he saw her use it once, and Moiraine flushes and says that sometimes it is necessary to break the rules. She explains that whatever balefire destroys ceases to exist before the moment it is destroyed; the stronger the balefire, the further back in time the effect reaches. She says the strongest balefire she can produce only goes back a few seconds, but Rand is much stronger. Mat remembered the Darkhound getting all the way through the door, but there is no hole there now, and if it had slavered on him as much as he remembers, he would have been dead long before she could have gotten to him. It no longer happened, and only the memories of those present remain. Rand says, then it’s a good thing he used balefire, if it means Mat is still alive.

“It is terrible, Rand.” An urgent note entered her, voice. “Why do you think even the Forsaken feared to use it? Think of the effect on the Pattern of a single thread, one man, removed from hours, or days, that have already been woven, like one thread picked partly out of a piece of cloth. Fragments of manuscripts remaining from the War of Power say several entire cities were destroyed with balefire before both sides realized the dangers. Hundreds of thousands of threads pulled from the Pattern, gone for days already past; whatever those people had done, now no longer had been done, and neither had what others had done because of their actions. The memories remained, but not the actions. The ripples were incalculable. The Pattern itself nearly unraveled. It could have been the destruction of everything. World, time, Creation itself.”

Rand shivers, but says he cannot promise never to use it again; as she herself said, sometimes you must do what is forbidden. Moiraine replies that she didn’t think he would, but that he must be careful; Rand notes ironically that she is back to “must” now that’s she calmed down. He tells her he has to check on someone, and creates a hole in the air that Asmodean had told him was called a gateway. Moiraine gasps, and asks what it is, but Rand avoids answering, and instead orders her to leave Mat and his medallion alone. Moiraine tries to argue, but Rand repeats the order, and after a struggle with herself Moiraine acquiesces. She leaves, Lan on her heels after giving Rand an unreadable look, and Rand steps through the gateway to stand on a disc colored like the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. He thinks that Asmodean claimed there was a faster method called Traveling, but had been unable to teach it for lack of strength.

In any case, Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading well, but Asmodean seemed to think that that was like asking why air was not water. There was a great deal that Asmodean took for granted. Anyway, Skimming was fast enough.

He steps out in the hallway outside Asmodean’s room, and sees that the man is still alive and sleeping, and that there had been three or four Darkhounds outside the room, from the prints in the stone of the floor. Rand channels Earth, smoothing out the prints in the stone, so there is no evidence that Shadowspawn could have any interest in a simple gleeman. Then he Skims back to his bedroom rather than brave the Maidens the old-fashioned way, and once there channels to reveal an alcove he had carved in the wall, holding the two access ter’angreal, which he had lied to Asmodean about.

The male figure could link him to a huge replica of itself, the most powerful male sa’angreal ever made, even if he were on the other side of the Aryth Ocean from it. It had only been finished after the Dark One’s prison was resealed — How do I know that? — and hidden before any of the male Aes Sedai going mad could find it.

Rand recalls the incident in the Stone when he had tried to Heal the little dead girl with Callandor, and thinks that if he could not be trusted with even that much Power, he should destroy these ter’angreal altogether. As he hides the alcove again, a woman’s voice asks what he is doing, and he hastily resets all the traps on the alcove before turning and demanding of Lanfear what she wants, trying to remember how he had blocked Egwene and Elayne from the Power before. He tries to tell himself to balefire her, but remembers the woman he beheaded, and knows he can’t do it. Lanfear says that he has two of them, and smiles with delight, saying he is beginning to consider her plan, isn’t he?

“You were always ambitious, Mierin.” His voice grated in his ears. “Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn’t Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!”

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. “Graendal said...” she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. “Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!”

Rand tries to hide his shock, and says harshly that he is Rand al’Thor. Lanfear begins to recover, and rationalizes aloud that Asmodean must have been telling Rand lies about her, that he did love her until “that trollop Ilyena” stole him away. She tells him that Asmodean severed his own mother, and Rand cannot trust the word of a man like that. Rand finds this statement highly ironic coming from her, and again demands to know what she wants, and she tells him Rahvin sent the Darkhounds, and that she would have come sooner to help, but she cannot let the others know she is on his side. Rand wonders if she is completely mad, or if the power of those sa’angreal was really as great as she claimed, and firmly steers his thoughts away from that. He asks why Rahvin would choose now to attack him; he thought Rahvin would avoid him as long as he did not impinge on Rahvin’s interests. Lanfear replies, but he is impinging, and explains that Rahvin is ruling Andor through Morgase, and intends to use her to claim the throne of Cairhien, and Cairhien is where Rand’s Tairens are currently sending food and troops into. Rand mentally asks Elayne to forgive him, and pretends indifference to Morgase’s plight, and thanks her for the warning, thinking that at least one good reason not to kill her was that she would tell him more than she meant to, if he let her. Then he wonders if that was his own thought. Lanfear observes that he is warding his dreams against her, and Rand replies that he is shielding from everyone, not just her; she says dreams are hers, and threatens to break through his warding. He pretends unconcern, sitting down and trying again to remember how to block someone from the Source. Lanfear continues that she could frighten these Wise Ones so they never attempt to spy on him again; Rand doesn’t dare tell her to leave them alone, and so counters that he thought she would not aid him openly. Then she remarks that the girl Egwene’s dreams most often feature Morgase’s son and stepson, especially the former, Gawyn.

She was trying to test his jealousy, he realized. She really thought he warded his dreams to hide thoughts of another woman!

There is a knock at the door, and Rand jumps up, but Lanfear already has a gateway open. She tells him to remember that she is his only hope of survival, and leaves. Rand opens the door, and Enaila sticks her head in, looking around suspiciously, and tells him the clan chiefs are waiting below for him. As soon as Rand reaches them, Han tells him that the Shaido are on the move, as well as all the unaffiliated clans. Rand asks whether the other clans move to join Couladin or him, and Rhuarc says it’s too early to tell, but the Shaido are moving toward Jangai Pass. Rand nods, thinking that Couladin has forced his hand, and tells the chiefs to rouse the spears; if they can’t catch Couladin, Rand means to be right behind him into Cairhien.

Commentary
Balefire: not an indoor sport, evidently. From the descriptions of what happens every time the characters use balefire, in fact, I would think the greatest danger from using it would be, not destroying the Pattern, but dying from structural collapse immediately afterwards. I guess it’s just ta’veren luck that Rand’s never sliced through a load-bearing wall, eh?

Now that I think about it, I don’t understand how on earth the whole Palace in Tanchico didn’t go splat in TSR, from the amount of masonry Jeaine Caide appeared to have taken out before pulling a Claude Rains. Retroactive architecture fail? You decide!

(“Retroactive.” I should probably be fined.)

I always thought balefire as Randland’s version of WMD was a pretty cool concept, myself. Certainly the idea of something that can unravel frickin’ reality is pretty durn scary. Scary enough, evidently, to induce Moiraine to go for broke and try (DUN!) humility as a court of last resort. (DUN!)

I personally applauded the hell out of this move, the first time, even as my jaw positively dropped with surprise. (DU- okay, I’ll stop doing that now.) Not because I was all like “yay, Moiraine comeuppance!” (though there was a leetle bit of that, I’ll admit), but because I was like “Jesus H., FINALLY someone tries a method that might actually work on Stubborn McChivalry over there!” You know, like telling the truth? Actual communication, liek whoa? It’s so crazy it just might work!

Although, the problem with Moiraine telling Rand not to use balefire (well, one of them) is that balefire seems to be the only thing that actually kills Darkhounds really most sincerely Ded. Have we seen them get reliably killed any other way?

Also also, re: poisonous blood/saliva/anything: I just happened to catch Resident Evil on cable the other day. COINCIDENCE? Okay, probably. But I’m pretty comfortable with the assertion that Darkhounds are the zombies of Randland; they’re just wolf zombies, instead of braaains people zombies. Snazzy!

Traveling: I’m sorry, but that whole “you have to know where you are, not where you’re going” thing is one of the most counterintuitive One Power concepts in all of WOT, if you ask me. It makes no sense. How do you tell it where to go if you don’t know where you’re going? Even OnStar needs a street name and a zipcode, for the love of Pete! “Oh, yeah, I know this patch of grass super-good, now take me to that place with the guy by the thing.” Rational!

Lanfear: sing it with me if you know it: Crazy for FEE-ling so bluuueeeueuee! I totally did not remember that it was Lanfear who first gives us the clue that Egwene wants Gawyn more than Galad; trust Lanfear to note that detail. I give her the reaction to the “Mierin” speech quoted above, though. That had to be one hell of a shock, hearing all that come out of Rand’s mouth. Not as shocking as it was for him, of course, but still.

Did I tell you guys what my personal Lews Therin theory is yet? Well, if I did, too bad, you’re hearing it again. My personal Lews Therin theory (mostly cheerfully stolen from Jean Dufresne, ex-rasfwr-jian) is that the memories/mannerisms/drawing skills are real, leakage from his previous incarnation as Lews Therin Telamon, but the “Lews Therin” voice Rand talks to is not real. The loony Lews Therin in his head (sez I) is an alternate personality constructed to siphon off Rand’s own encroaching taint-induced insanity, and leave the sane “Rand” personality free to be, well, not crazy. It’s All So Freudian.

(I have issues with Freud as applied in the real world, but as a source for narrative devices he is kickass.)

Jordan’s weigh-in on the subject (that Rand is one soul with two personalities) is vague enough in my opinion that it can be viewed as either support for the argument or evidence against it, so naturally I take the position that it supports my position. Yay, I win!

Now, having thrown my Holy Hand Grenade, I runaway!


Chapter 7: A Departure

What Happens
Egwene yawns and mounts her horse; she is not looking forward to the journey west. She shares a smile with Amys, for she had successfully found Amys’s dreams the night before, and they had had tea in the dream to celebrate. Afterwards Egwene had been too excited to stop, and had gone exploring. She had been careful not to enter Bair’s or Melaine’s dreams, and had tried Rand’s instead, but it was like running into a wall; she is resolved not to give up on the problem of how to get around the ward. Everything is in organized chaos as the Aiel prepare to depart, and Egwene ignores Kadere’s bow to her, thinking that his dreams had been decidedly unpleasant. She rides to the Roof of the Maidens, and sees that Isendre is now clothed like the gai’shain, but in black instead of white, which Egwene thinks is going to be tortuous once the day’s heat gets going. She knows better than to try and intervene in the Maidens’ affairs, especially since they had decided that she was more a Wise One pupil than she was Aes Sedai, but can’t help thinking of the glimpse she had had of Isendre’s dreams, which were horrific nightmares of torture that had sent Egwene bolting awake. She sees Rand outside the Roof, and notes he has a new belt buckle in the shape of a dragon, and thinks disapprovingly that he is really starting think a lot of himself. Rand is talking to the Aiel who are staying behind about the Ogier stonemasons he sent for to help rebuild Rhuidean, which Egwene approves of. She sees Mat, looking rumpled as usual, and thinks she had carefully avoided his dreams, and her suspicions over what they would have been about are confirmed when he looks embarrassed at a blonde Maiden’s grin at him. She stops her horse beside his, and Mat nods to Moiraine and tells Egwene that Rand told her to be quiet, and she did it.

“She started telling him why this is the wrong thing to do — sounded to me like she was saying it for the hundredth time — and he said, ‘I’ve decided, Moiraine. Stand over there and be quiet till I have time for you.’ Like he expected her to do as she was told. And she did. Is that steam coming out of her ears?”

He chortles. Egwene sniffs loudly, but Mat only gives her a wry look and chuckles again, and Egwene ignores him in favor of wondering why on earth Moiraine would do as Rand told her. She has a feeling Moiraine will tell her it’s none of her business, but Egwene hates not understanding things, and determines to get to the bottom of it. She spots Aviendha and heads over to her. Aviendha is staring at Rand, turning her ivory bracelet over and over; Egwene knows that the bracelet has something to do with Aviendha’s difficulty with Rand, but Aviendha refuses to explain it to Egwene. Egwene asks Aviendha to let her try again to talk the Wise Ones out of their plan for her, and Aviendha is puzzled that she’s still up in arms about that. Egwene then says that Aviendha does not have to be afraid of Rand, and Aviendha flares up and replies that she is scared of no man, and Egwene should not say such things, near-sister or not. Egwene sighs.

Aviendha’s dream had been too painful to watch for long. Naked but for that ivory bracelet, and that seeming to drag at her as if it weighed a hundred pounds, Aviendha had been running as hard as she could across a cracked clay flat. And behind her, Rand came, a giant twice the size of an Ogier on a huge Jeade’en, slowly but inexorably catching up.

Egwene thinks you can’t tell your friends they are lying, especially when she would have to admit how she knew it for a lie. Egwene flushes a little, and promises herself, no more rummaging in other people’s dreams. The crowd around Rand starts to break up, and as he mounts his horse, one of the traders asks if he means to ever return. Silence spreads as the question is passed back among the crowd, and Rand is silent too for a moment. Then he says that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, but he hopes to return; and in any case, he will give them something to remember him by, and sticks his hand in his coat pocket.

Abruptly a fountain near the Roof burst to life, water gushing from the mouths of incongruous porpoises standing on their tails. Beyond that, a statue of a young man with a horn raised to the sky suddenly was putting up a spreading fan, and then two stone women farther on were casting sprays of water from their hands. In stunned stillness the Aiel watched as all the fountains of Rhuidean flowed once more.

Rand mutters that he should have done that long since, but his voice carries clearly in the stillness. Egwene stares at him, thinking that she keeps thinking she’s used to the fact that Rand is a man who can channel, and then suddenly it hits her all at once again. She thinks maybe Aviendha is right to be afraid of him, but when she looks, Aviendha is staring at the fountains with delighted wonder. Rand gives the order to move out, and the huge party of thousands begins its trek out of Rhuidean.

Moiraine double-checks that the doorframe ter’angreal is firmly lashed in the lead wagon behind Kadere’s, and looks back at the plaza, noting the glass columns and the three gray metal rings. She thinks of the rings, and how the first test to become a Wise One was to step through any one of them, and go through one’s own life over and over, with each possible future based on every possible decision throughout her life.

Death was possible in those, too; some women could not face the future any more than others could face the past. All possible futures were too many for a mind to retain, of course. They jumbled together and faded away for the most part, but a woman gained a sense of things that would happen in her life, that must happen, that might happen. Usually even that was hidden until the moment was on her. Not always, though. Moiraine had been through those rings.

A spoonful of hope and a cup of despair, she thought.

Lan is distressed, and tells her he does not like seeing her like this. Moiraine asks, like what, and he replies that he has never seen her worried and afraid before, not even when she found out Sammael was in the same city as they. He asks, is the end coming? Moiraine gives a start, and tries to cover it by assuming he means Tarmon Gai’don, and saying “a redbird in Seleisin” knows as well as she. Lan asks slowly what else he could have meant, and Moiraine curses herself for saying anything. He says she has grown impatient, and he doesn’t understand what possessed her to give “the boy” an oath like that. Moiraine replies that Rand has been drawing away from her, and she will do everything short of sharing his bed to make sure he gets the guidance he needs.

The rings had told her that that would be disaster. Not that she had ever considered it — the very idea still shocked her! — but in the rings it was something she would or could have considered in the future. It was a measure of her growing desperation, no doubt, and in the rings she had seen that it would bring ruination on everything.

Lan remarks that perhaps it will help her humility grow if she has to fetch Rand’s slippers, and Moiraine wonders if he just tried to make a joke. If so, it wasn’t very funny (Moiraine had never seen the point of humility), but it meant that he was changing, and that was because of Nynaeve al’Meara. Lan had tried to deny it, not that he loved Nynaeve, but that he could ever have her, and Moiraine thinks that she’s taken care of that, at least, though he would not know how until it was done.

“This arid land seems to have withered your own humility, al’Lan Mandragoran. I shall have to find some water to make it grow again.”

“My humility is honed to razor sharpness,” he told her dryly. “You never let it grow too dull.”

The long column of Aiel snakes out of Chaendaer, and Moiraine looks at the barren landscape – a hard land that shaped a hard people – and wonders what Rand will make of the Aiel in the end.

Commentary
Oh, Egwene. (Ooh! Ooh!)

Violation of privacy continues apace! Although – eh, I don’t know. With the spectacular lack of communicating all the characters in WOT do, Egwene (and the readers) would never find out anything without her being a giant snoop, so maybe it’s justified. Or at least understandable. I guess you have to ask yourself, if you suddenly discovered that you could horn in on people’s dreams, would you be able to resist taking a peek?

Of course, she still doesn’t necessarily get the interpretations of what she sees right (see Aviendha), but you know. I was really disappointed that she hadn’t peeked into Mat’s dreams, personally, because I bet he wouldn’t have been dreaming about what she thinks he would have been dreaming about. Well, not the whole time, anyway.

Interesting, after Lanfear’s little tidbit in the previous chapter, that Egwene never thinks about what she’s been dreaming about, isn’t it?

I’m with Aviendha: I loved Rand reviving the fountains. One of those cool little sensawunda moments I dote upon in fantasy.

Moiraine POV, yay! They’re fun because they’re so rare. Though of course as usual she manages to be mysterious even when we’re inside her head.

The concept behind the Wise Ones’ rings is a little dizzying, too. If it shows you every possible result of every possible decision... well, I ain’t no math major, but I can say authoritatively that that is a metric fuckton of possible futures, right there. No wonder you can’t hold them all in your head. I’d be screwed, I can’t even finish a “hard” level game of sudoku.

I have the same reaction here to the possibility of Moiraine sleeping with Rand as I did to the “sexy” scene with her and Perrin in TDR, namely Eurgh. So wrong, you guys. This is probably just me, but I actually have trouble seeing her romantically involved with anyone at all. I don’t know why; something about the notion of her becoming unguarded enough to be mushy with a guy just seems bizarre and unlikely.

That includes Thom, by the way; if Brandon manages to pull off a successful love scene with the two of them in the last three books (assuming one happens, which it may not, who knows), I will be frankly impressed. (By “love scene” I don’t necessarily mean “sex scene”, I mean any scene in which they express love for each other. I just can’t picture it!)

I love the Lan/Moiraine banter here (nice subtle reference to the then-unwritten events of New Spring), though I love less what she’s going to end up doing to him. But that’s for later.


And that’s all I gots for now, chirren. Hopefully Friday will provide more coherency, i.e. sleep. See you there!

355 comments
j p
1. sps49
I dunno about the timing, but Lanfear showing up with the darkhounds is suspicious to me.

First confirmation of the medallion?
Kurt Lorey
2. Shimrod
I really like the mutual respect between Moiraine and Lan. Twenty years together. Some might have run away shrieking after seven.

The dream finding is a bit intrusive for my part.

The Rhuidean Rings might just show the most likely choices, or the best/worst case scenarios. Otherwise, you'd think they'd be in there for months.

Way cool that those Rhuidean Rings are automatic, rather than the Final Test in Tar Valon Rings which involve all of the participants.
Richard Fife
3. R.Fife
A note on Mat: the foxhead medallion protects his dreams (RJ said so in a Q&A, also said that it is a genunine side effect, not a purposeful ability of the medallion).

Yes, I'd peek in on dreams, and probably regret it.

Not much else to say until other people start churning the mud.
toryx
4. toryx
Leigh's theory about Rand and Lews Therin is pretty much the same as mine. But better put.

The whole business with Moiraine and the ter'angreal that allows her to see the result of every decision she could make really is amazingly far out. But it also sounds incredibly traumatic. It's one thing to be forced to deal with all your bad choices once after another and light knows there have got to be a ton of them. But how many times did she see the Dark One break free and break the wheel of time?

That's got to be like experiencing your worse nightmare come true over and over again. Except that, based on the description of the experiences inside the Ter'angreal in the Tower, it's far more real than any dream.

Sometimes I think the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends who created all these things were true masochists.
toryx
5. Browncoat Jayson
Yeah, personal boundaries never stop Egwene. But she is a narrator's choice.

The Rhuidean (and Accepted) Rings must have been made during the Age of Legends. No wars, low crime, no DARK ONE... yeah, probably never a death in the Rings during those times. Now, too much bad mojo for some people; they just can't take it!

Maybe Lanfear used the Rings after the DO broke out. Would help explain some of the crazy...
Sara H
6. LadyBelaine
Lovely job as always, Leigh.

More later but I just wanted to say that I completely missed the fact that Darkhounds, even after being sliced and diced, slide back together and re-congeal like the T-1000.

That's sorta gross amd creepy.

(I also loved Rand making it rain on Arrakis ... I mean, Paul making the fountains of Rhuidean flow...oh, you know what I mean)
toryx
7. Artsapat
Great post, as always. Thank you.

Re: Pattern

I think what the retional behind it is, is this: to Travel, you need to either "fold" the Pattern (Saidar) or make a "tear" in the Pattern (Saidin - I think this is explained somewhere in the next book), and if you want to do this, you need to be able to "feel" the Pattern at this location to know how and where to "cut", "fold", "art-and-crafts". If you manage to make the "fold" or "tear" at the right location, it's easy to find where you need to go, even if you have never been there before.

The same holds for "skimming": you move, even if you don't feel it and you know when you arrived. Just a matter of "reading the Pattern".

Personally, I think it's one of the fun peculiarities of WOT "magic". Instead of the whole "watch where you're going, you're going to end up inside of a mountain", we've got "I can't go there and have to fight these Trollocs, because I only arrived a minute ago".
toryx
8. Lsana
A couple of things. First of all, reading Ch. 7, was anyone else thinking, "Light, Egwene! Do you have any idea what you're doing?" during the bit when she was describing spying on Kadere and Isendre? It's a very good thing that the Wise One's didn't start these lessons while Kellie was still with the party or who knows what Lanfear would have done to her? I don't think Egwene ever really learns to be careful.

Interesting point, though, about how she never really thinks about her own dreams or worries about who might be watching them...

Also, another point that I've been wanting to mention for a while, and this seems as good a place as any: it surprises me that people put so much faith in Aes Sedai promises and oaths, not the ones taken on the Oath Rod, just ordinary oaths. There seems to be an assumption that the First Oath prevents them from breaking a promise. I don't think that's true. The fact that an Aes Sedai says, "I'm wearing a blue dress," doesn't prevent her from changing into a red one later in the evening. Likewise, while an Aes Sedai would have to mean any promise she gave at the time she gave it, I don't think there is anything that would hold her to that promise if she changed her mind about keeping it. Otherwise, why bother making them swear 3 Oaths rather than just the first, then promising not to attack anyone or make a weapon?
toryx
9. alreadymadwithMo'sbreakdown
I actually agree with you on LTT's voice, Leigh. Furthermore, I believe the loony quality is entirely Rand's imagination. LTT's voice is sometimes impulsive, but when he does give advice it usually makes sense. Ditto on Moiraine's lovelife. I don't see it either. Not even with Thom.

As for Travelling. After some consideration, it finally made sense. You are not actually heading for your destination at super speed when you Travel, so you don't need exact coordinates for the destination. You are in essence bending reality, pulling your destination's location in the Pattern closer to you. For that, you don't need a waypoint so much as an anchor. You need to anchor your self to your current location.

Oh and I found Egwene's thought about Rand's buckle hilarious. If she only knew where he got it.
Luke M
10. lmelior
Somebody mentioned this a couple dozen posts ago, but do we ever find out what happens to all of these ter'angreal they've loaded on these wagons? Are they lost or destroyed in the Lanfear fight?
toryx
11. GregoryD
Hey, I get the first comment!

Nice going on the rereads, LB.

So if the voice in Rand's head is not LLT, then who tells rand how to break the weaves holding him inside the box in the next chapter. More of his doing things he doesn't know who to do, but never managing to destroy the whole world?
James Jones
12. jamesedjones
I'm of the opinion that LTT is real, but certifiably insane (with grief, not the taint). Rand, however, is not insane... yet. Thus, the two personalities.

As LTT grows more sane, and Rand grows more insane, I think the LTT voices will disappear.

As for Traveling, see the movie Stargate. It seems to feature the same argument that RJ is using in the WOT.

Thanks again, Leigh! Love your sleep deprived comments.

Edit: Before I get a whole ton of arguments about the taint being gone, I'm thinking that Rand's big emo whoopla about killing women is what's driving him nuts. Okay, unleash the argument hounds.
Richard Fife
13. R.Fife
Lmelior: one of the Wagons melts, but RJ said in a Q&A that they are still sitting at the Cairhien docks, warded so that only Rand can go near them.

On the voice, I oddly am in favor that it all is actually LTT coming through and not a constructed personality, especially with the talk of personality re-integration from Semi at the end of KoD. As the voice rants with LTT's memories, I do kind of think it is LTT's personality cause, after all, what makes a person's personality but the summation of the experience/memory?
j p
14. sps49
@8 Lsana-

An AS can't make an oath that they think they might ever break, so that would be better than other promises and good enough for me.

@11 Gregory-

I think it is Rand remembering.

And I recall commenting on Cadsuane slapping Rand later for using balefire and wanting her to come up with an alternative for him. I'm still waiting.
toryx
15. Rebecca Starr
Ch 6
Let's backtrack for a minute here... I think it's fairly obvious that Mat and Melindhra are giving each other more than back massages, and unless Mat lost the big V back home in the Two Rivers, then that means he lost his virginity off screen with her right around here - in which case, congrats to him for being the first of RMP to do so!

also I just have to say, what's up with Rand and the Waterwood in his dreams? kinda weird, you know what I'm saying?

Ch 7
I too love the Lan/Moiraine banter here, but I have to say, I'm actually struck by the *goodness* of what Moiraine did. Okay, okay, illegal and all that. But by transferring Lan's bond to Myrelle in order to then transfer it to Nynaeve she a) saves Lan's life from avenging her and b) allows Lan to be with Nynaeve, even knowing that Nynaeve hates her and even having been a bit jealous of the space Nynaeve took over in Lan's heart. it's very... unselfish of her.

One random point to back up how much I love gender in WoT - the way Jordan subtly plays with pronouns: "The terrain in the Waste was not hospitable to wheels, as more than one peddler had learned to his or her sorrow."
Sydo Zandstra
16. Fiddler
Good recap, Leigh.

One thing I wonder about is why Rand didn't tell Lan Mat almost died to get that medallion (without going into further details).

With all the Tai'shar's going back and forth in the earlier books I guess Lan would have understood...
Hugh Arai
17. HArai
On Moiraine's new strategy for dealing with Rand: That pretty much sums up "being Aes Sedai" for me right there. It takes having knowledge of her own rapidly approaching self-sacrifice fighting a Forsaken to convince one to actually communicate with the One Hope for the World(tm). It's pathological. Side effect of that ter'angreal I suppose.
Leigh Butler
18. leighdb
GregoryD @11:

So if the voice in Rand's head is not LLT, then who tells rand how to break the weaves holding him inside the box in the next chapter.

The memories are real; the loonball personality Rand is funneling them through is not.

In My Opinion, Of Course.

Rebecca Starr @ 15:

Well, I don't have any proof, of course, but I personally think there's no way Mat got out of the Stone of Tear still a virgin. Even if the Maidens' Kiss thing never got beyond first base, I do not doubt that there was at *least* one chambermaid.
toryx
19. toryx
Fiddler @ 16

One thing I wonder about is why Rand didn't tell Lan Mat almost died to get that medallion (without going into further details).


One thing that most of the Good Guys in these novels respect is another's right to privacy (Even Egwene sometimes). Rand is respecting Mat's right to privacy. Mat doesn't want anyone to know about what happened to him in the Ter'Angreal so Rand isn't saying anything.

Even though that willingness to keep other people's secrets can cause a lot of problems, I respect the hell out of them for doing it.
James Jones
20. jamesedjones
15 Rebecca

Let's not give Mat too much credit. He had lots of opportunities in the Stone.

Edit: Leigh caught it. :)
Richard Fife
21. R.Fife
and, if Mat did somehow get out of the Stone "in tact", then Perrin beat him. He did have a wedding night last book, remember. Anyway you cut it, though, Rand is a late bloomer, but he sure makes up for it later, eh?
toryx
22. Evinfuilt
The buckle with Egwene annoys me. Its really the begining of everyone assuming Rand is super vain, when people for plenty good reasons give him honest gifts (with meaning.)

If she just asked, where he got the belt. Why he has giant thrones carved, the seanchan spear, the sword, etcetra. But nope, all the super girls just assume Rand is power mad and vain.
Sydo Zandstra
23. Fiddler
Toryx @ 19:

I see your point, and I agree. But if Moiraine would have been slightly less bound by Oath to Rand at the time, she would have had the medallion. A simple request to Lan would have sufficed.

(although maybe Lan would have refused to take it away from him. oh well... )
James Jones
24. jamesedjones
22 Evinfuilt

Leigh's control group theory. See the Monday blog.

Personally, I just see it as 'Projecting'. Love me some Freud! LOL

Edit: Damn, I'm just making all kinds of assumptions today. In case you don't follow the Dallas Cowboys, this is a major issue for Terrel Owens. He is notorious for thinking everyone is just like him. And his major quote from his time as a Cowboy is "I love me some me". Really sick stuff.
Helen Peters
25. Helen
Re comments on last post (not mine): Proof of channeler begetting channeler, in Randland, but not the seafolk. Asmo severed his mum.
Ofer Nave
26. odigity
Leigh@0: I have the same reaction here to the possibility of Moiraine sleeping with Rand as I did to the “sexy” scene with her and Perrin in TDR, namely Eurgh. So wrong, you guys. This is probably just me, but I actually have trouble seeing her romantically involved with anyone at all. I don’t know why; something about the notion of her becoming unguarded enough to be mushy with a guy just seems bizarre and unlikely.

I expect this to be a common feeling among the men, but less so among the women, for some reason. I guess I expect women to be better able to appreciate the fact that Moiraine is, in a fact, a woman - and probably a rather young and pretty one, at that. It's been less than two decades since she started slowing. Probably doesn't look much older than Nynaeve. On the flip side, I would expect the men, having mostly likely identified with Rand through EotW, to still have a lingering perception of Moiraine as a mother figure, and therefore react... well, like you're reacting.

Being slightly kooky myself, I enjoy hopping through both (and other perspectives). I liked the Perrin/nightgown scene. It added dimension to the characters.

I've posted before about how often (especially compared to her sisters) Moiraine demostrates a surprising amount of empathy and compassionate, considering her goals and M.O. I've also posted about how I view her life as one of the most tragic. She's had no period of her life ever approach normalcy, and no opportunity to invest her emotional assets into a personal relationship (as opposed to the more abstract relationship with the world as a whole in her attempts to save it) which would be rewarding for her in a different way.

I'm totally rooting for Moiraine and Thom. My favorite relationship in the series - which is funny, cause they don't technically have one yet.

Leigh@0: Violation of privacy continues apace! Although – eh, I don’t know. With the spectacular lack of communicating all the characters in WOT do, Egwene (and the readers) would never find out anything without her being a giant snoop, so maybe it’s justified. Or at least understandable. I guess you have to ask yourself, if you suddenly discovered that you could horn in on people’s dreams, would you be able to resist taking a peek?

Apologies for posting the majority of the lyrics, but the song is just too perfect:

It's funny I know
But I'm disappointed in you
I thought you could read my mind
But I came home early
And saw that a drawer'd been opened
Looks like you've been reading my diary instead

How does it feel to realize
You're all alone behind your eyes?
It seems to me if you can't trust
You can't be trusted

Caught in a dream
Picking up astral signals
Some of them psychic, you better watch what you think
Happens to be that everybody else's dreams are Freudian clues
You better watch what you dream

You wanna see the other side
What's going on behind the eyes
Still it seems if you can't trust
You can't be trusted


Trusted by Ben Folds
Helen Peters
27. Helen
New subject to discuss, one I'd never even contemplated before. Is Mo black ajah? She can lie, I think.
She says “I will not be with you forever,” Moiraine said urgently. Her hands gripped her skirts so hard that they trembled. “I might die in the next attack. I could fall from my horse and break my neck, or take a Darkfriend’s arrow through my heart, and death cannot be Healed." quote by Leigh (thanks) So has she seen herself going through the doorway with Lanfear? Did she see that in the rhuidean rings? If she knows (and by her letter it's pretty certain she knows what her fate is) how can she give the above speech without knowing it's a lie. Or has she found some other way round, is "might" enough to make it not a lie?

Gonna go back and read the rest now.
Hugh Arai
28. HArai
leighdb@18: Got to agree there. Mat must have hooked up with *someone* in Tear.

I like your LTT theory. My own theory is that Rand hearing LTT and Rand going mad are two separate issues. LTT (real or filter) is from being reborn. Going mad or what he thinks of as going mad, just what happens when a normal, decent, dutiful shepherd get volunteered to save the world. Under that much pressure anger,depression, trouble staying focused and trouble being too focused all strike me as pretty... sane? At least not taint-based?
Aidan Young
29. aidanyoung1102
This time through I'm really starting to feel for Aviendha. She's been through the rings, too, and she is just totally losing it over her 'fate' with Rand. It must suck to find out that you're gonna hook up with the guy you agreed to watch for your best friend.
Luke M
30. lmelior
Re: Moiraine attempting to use her feminine wiles on Rand
Yeah, I can't imagine that ever working. Not because I don't believe she can (I did say I'd marry her after all, way back in the Post-that-is-no-longer-a-post), but rather Rand's awkwardness with women. He'd be clueless as to what she was doing at first, then he'd start to bumble around and run away.

@odigity #26
I don't know if I ever did picture her as a motherly type of character, but if so it is as you say, the nightgown scene changed that.

Re: The LTT theory as posted
Interesting, I'd always thought of LTT as being actually there, but the memories-only theory makes sense too. As far as I've thought about it so far, I don't see any holes in it. Of course, RJ might just leave it a mystery, as it might not matter either way.

EDIT:
Also, the Moiraine/Thom relationship that I'd never thought of until reading these posts, that seems way more "wrong" to me than Moiraine trying to seduce Rand. I'd always pictured Thom as looking like Richard Harris (Dumbledore in the first two Harry Potter movies).
Sydo Zandstra
31. Fiddler
Helen@27:

Moiraine: I could fall from my horse and break my neck, or take a Darkfriend’s arrow through my heart, and death cannot be Healed.


No lie there, just typical AS Oath Bending. She mentions the possibility, but doesn't say it will or will not happen.
Ofer Nave
32. odigity
Re: killing Darkhounds without Balefire

Perrin does it outside of Illian in TDR with three arrows fired from a TR bow.

Rebecca Starr@15: Let's backtrack for a minute here... I think it's fairly obvious that Mat and Melindhra are giving each other more than back massages, and unless Mat lost the big V back home in the Two Rivers, then that means he lost his virginity off screen with her right around here - in which case, congrats to him for being the first of RMP to do so!

Perrin and Faile most definitely consumated after the final ISAM! battle at the end of TSR, so if you mean in narrative order, Perrin wins. If you mean in chronological order, then you'll have to consult the glorious WOT Chronology website, which I'm too lazy to link to or visit.

Re: Moiraine supervising the transport of the twisted stone ter'angreal

Does anyone else find these brief mentions heartbreaking? She's taking care to ensure her death happens correctly.
Kurt Lorey
33. Shimrod
I love all the different theories.

My take is that the Dragon (LTT) has been reborn like all Heroes of the Horn, spun out by the Pattern to fulfill a particular destiny. But this time, for some reason, he moved in to share a body with Rand, instead of the body being his alone.

The good thing? We'll all get to find out which one is right (if any!) within a measurable time frame. Thanks Harriet and Brandon! ;)
toryx
34. lostmypassword
Does knowing your starting point well mean a less likelyhood of slicing innocent people when you finally open a gateway at your destination?

I think in later books when everyone learns how to Skim, they eventually end up choosing the same destinations (from Salidar to Egwene's camp outside of Tar Valon).

Also, not to be off topic, but RIP David Eddings.
Rikka Cordin
36. Rikka
I could easily see Moiraine taking a lover, even Thom (I love the thought of that pairing. if Sanderson pulls it off... :D ) I just think, as a Cairhienin Aes Sedai, she's very practiced at being discreet.
Ofer Nave
37. odigity
lmelior@30: Also, the Moiraine/Thom relationship that I'd never thought of until reading these posts, that seems way more "wrong" to me than Moiraine trying to seduce Rand. I'd always pictured Thom as looking like Richard Harris (Dumbledore in the first two Harry Potter movies).

Good god, no. Thom is not that old. Not even 50, I don't think. He's just weary/wise beyond his years because of:
1) knowing damn near everything about politics and political history
2) knowing nearly every gleeman's song and tale, which includes a wealth of knowledge about people, relationships, behavior, etc
3) served and bedded a queen
4) had a nephew "gentled" by Red Ajah (without even following their own due process code), and subsequently die
5) been nearly executed by above queen
6) personally killed or arranged for the death of one king and another quasi-king
7) ah, whatever, you've got the picture by now

He's also witty and charming. Aside from Morgase, he manages to capture the attentions of an attractive and very talented bardress-in-training in Cairhien in TGH, and later even Elayne flirts with him.

Most importantly (to me), he's the only man we've ever seen Moiraine show even the slightest personal interest in. If I knew nothing about Thom but a name and this fact, I would already know nearly everything I needed to.

(Yes, I said "only man", because, well... Siuan.)
Chris Hall
38. bookwormchris
I think we learn later on that Moiraine never gets to see past her little Lanfear incident from those rings. She only has some basic info about what might be done to free her. Although one wonders what she learned from the other doorway trip. I don't know how she states it in the letter, guess we'll see that later unless people want to go dig up the presumable links out on the internet.

The BBoBA mentions different types of Darkhounds, I think. Either that or it was the RP Game books. Perhaps both. I can't check right now. Basically the lessor ones could be killed by conventional means while the greater ones can regenerate and thus need balefire (or something else? Not sure anything else would work besides dumping them in Skimming land.)

Balefire is awesome stuff, but I will again bring up Rand's scene in the Stone (well, he might have been in TAR at the time) when he uses the Sword That Is Not to split the stream of balefire, thus preventing his death. I've never really been sure how that all works, but it was an awesome scene. So far about the only thing we know that can't be balefired out of existence is Heartstone. Except for the seals now, which would probably evaporate faster than water in the Waste.

I am really looking forward to the rescue of Moiraine. She might be a completely different person after her time in Snake and Fox Tower. I want to see what she thinks of Rand now, half a dozen books worth of events later. Hopefully Brandon can deliver some awesome in the last 3 books. (Just ordered a signed copy of Warbreaker to read over the summer. I have Jury Duty right when I get back home. Good reading time, if nothing else.)
toryx
39. alreadymadwithtalkofgateways
lostmypassword @34
Nope. Knowing the starting point is a requirement for opening the Gateway. The channeler is not really taking the destination into account. Only as far as where it is in relation to his point of origination. He doesn't need to know as much details as he would for the starting point. If there's anybody at the destination, that guy's out of luck.
Also the main reason why most set aside a specific area for Travelling. To avoid innocent bystanders.
Ofer Nave
40. odigity
lostmypassword@34: Also, not to be off topic, but RIP David Eddings.

I would classify that as on-topic. I've never read any Eddings, but I know the name, and am sure some people here have, and appreciate knowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Eddings
Helen Peters
41. Helen
32. odigity
Re: Moiraine supervising the transport of the twisted stone ter'angreal

Does anyone else find these brief mentions heartbreaking? She's taking care to ensure her death happens correctly.


She's not dead, she knows she's not going to die, she saw that in the rings as well. You know, Mat has to ask to read Thom's letter....


Edited to add..OK, bookwormChris got in first and shot my theory down.
Sara H
42. LadyBelaine
odigity@32

Perrin was striking them down with arrows in tGh, but they'd get back up again (which we didn't see, but they must based upon what we see in this chapter), but doesn't Moiraine balefire them in that same scene?
K F
43. TAmyrlinring1
lmelior@30

I always imagined Thom more like the actor that played Virgil Earp in Tombstone. White hair, but not old, and what a voice! (Lose the twang, of course.

*** and to whomever did the post about Moiraine possibly lieing . . . someone has already addressed that she is bending in AS style, but you might want to consider what Rand would do if she told him of the impending row with Lanfear. He would stop Moiraine from meeting Lanfear and then Lanfear would not have been stopped, and there might have been something in the rings that told her that that would have been disastrous, like, perhaps, Rand dieing since Lanfear is enraged at him. So Mo may just be protecting him as per knowledge gained that telling him would be disaster.
Helen Peters
44. Helen
It's years and years since I've read David Eddings but one bit has always stuck in my mind. In the Belgariad, cannot remember which book, Poledra says she's going to have a bath coz she smells, her dad (Belgarion? I did say years didn't I?) says they all smell. Poledra's reply is one of my all time favorites "No, I smell, you stink!"

Brilliant writer, he'll be missed.
Sara H
45. LadyBelaine
TAmyrlin@43,

Nope - Thom will be played by Patrick Stewart, with a white wig.

But in my mind's eye, he looks a lot like this.
Helen Peters
46. Helen
43. TAmyrlinring1
*** and to whomever did the post about Moiraine possibly lying . . .

That was me. But if she knows what is going to happen, isn't her saying might still a lie, because she knows it won't? Or does it not count because at that moment she doesn't really believe it's going to happen how she saw it?
Richard Fife
47. R.Fife
Helen: she does not know the future, just possible futures. There could have been futures she did not see where the mights she said are possible, or perhaps she even did see futures where those very things did happen. It's kinda like the future-sight Paul has in Dune. He sees a vast field of maybe, but nothing is solid until it happens.
Elroy Skimms
48. elroyskimms
alreadymadwithMo'sbreakdown @ 9
You are in essence bending reality, pulling your destination's location in the Pattern closer to you.


"there is such a thing as a tesseract"

-E
Michael Catapano
49. hoping
sps49@1
I always thought lanfear was being truthful with Rand in her dealings with him. After all, she is in love (as she knows it) with him and wants to rule with him. I could just be gullible.

And, if Lanfear can find love then Moraine can as well. There is someone that holds the key to her heart and Thom could be the guy.

Leighdb re balefire

The incident with the darkhounds at Mat's door is the first time that Rand realizes he can modulate balefire.
He uses it to greater effect at the end of tFoH when he kills only the trollocs in the melee after killing Rahvin. By adjusting the amount of power, he narrows the beam and is able to cut it off so that it doesn't continue on and kill friendlies. The implication is that all balefire ends, depending on how much power is used.

Sorry to hear the news about Eddings. I enjoyed his writing.
K F
50. TAmyrlinring1
Helen @46

I say no, first because it's couched in might, and second because she doesn't *know* what will happen. The rings didn't fortell, but showed her what would happen with different choices (like sleeping with Rand, which was apparently a very bad idea). She still has the ability to run away screaming (unless you count in that ta'veren pull)or to tell Rand what's coming up or to do a myriad of things. I think she *has* to have a choice on that one though or there would be no other possibilities for the rings to show, so there is no true "knowing." I think that her letter to Rand showed the truth in that by saying something about it he was reading it that all had gone as she had hoped (don't have the quote in front of me though.)
Don Barkauskas
51. bad_platypus
A small detail that struck me:

He thinks that Asmodean claimed there was a faster method called Traveling, but had been unable to teach it for lack of strength.

But we know from later (WH, I believe?) that Sorilea (almost as weak as possible for a channeler to be) demonstrates the Travel weave well enough for Cadsuane to learn it. Possible explanations:

1. RJ messed up/changed his mind
2. Asmodean was lying
3. Other?

Frankly, #2 seems unlikely given Asmodean's character, so I lean towards #1.

Thoughts?
Sydo Zandstra
52. Fiddler
@ bad_platypus :

Sorilea knew how the weave in order to Travel goes, but she lacks the strength to actually do it by herself. Note how stronger sisters can make larger gateways than weaker ones.

In a US comparison, when I played baseball, I had the technique to throw a fastball as a pitcher (although I wasn't really one; I just threw batting practice), and could teach kids about that technique.

But I lacked the strength myself to make it a real bullet, while some of this kids could, later. ;)
toryx
53. lerris
bad_platypus@51

We know from LoC that Travelling is different for men and women. For that reason I choose option 3- females require less power to Travel than males.
K F
54. TAmyrlinring1
bad @51

I'll bite--I think it more likely that he was lying. He's a Forsaken, so truth and all of that have no allure. Rand has no clue what Asmodean's talking about really, so Asmo looks good for mentioning traveling, but Rand can't know that he isn't lying about being too weak to teach it. I also think it likely that Asmo thinks/hopes at least partially that he will somehow be freed before TG and win himself back into the evil graces of his master.
Michael Catapano
55. hoping
badplatypus

I think number 2. Asmo was lying. Also, it would have dramatically changed the book. Rand could have met the Shaido at the Jangai pass and defeated them there. There would have been no battle in Carhein, no dispersed shaido, no faile capture and subsequent rescue travesty...
Galen Brinn
56. GatheringStorm
I'm of the camp that LTT is real.

I suspect the teaching of Travelling may have been a case where The Creator hadn't finalized the details. Since Sorilea can make the weave (and be as weak as you can be and still channel), it follows that Asmodean should have at least been able to show Rand how to create that type of gateway, even if he couldn't make the weave "stick" himself.
toryx
57. The Not So Dark One
Lsana @8 and sps49@14

What about Merellille when she runs away with Talan after promising to be the first to go to the windfinders and serve a year as a teacher?
DOes this mean she made the promise and then changed her mind later? Or felt her teaching to that point meant she had met her promise to be the first? or does she plan to go back later? possibly hoping TG will take care of the issue for her? Or...is she a darkfriend?
toryx
58. alreadymadwithgatewaylimits
elroyskimms @48
Unfortunately, I am no longer the geek I was as a child.

bad_platypus @51
#3 Other
Asmo relied on strength and was limited by his own preconceived notions about opening a Gateway. Sorilea, on the other hand, was familiar with her own weakness and was still able to form the weave despite being too weak to make it work. Besides, women are generally more dextrous weavers than men.
toryx
59. CalaLily
The Not So Dark One:

If Merilille is as Aes Sedai as any other Aes Sedai, her promise was not "I promise to serve a full 365 day year with no interruptions or side trips and devote my time fully to teaching the Atha'an Miere everything I know."

It was probably more along the lines of, "I promise to teach the Atha'an Miere everything I know for one year."

Which gives her plenty of leeway to get the heck outta Caemlyn. Which I really don't blame her for doing. I don't like how the Sea Folk treat their non-Sea Folk teachers.

However, she'll have to face the music eventually, because her year was nowhere near over. :\
Blake Engholm
60. UncrownedKing
yay for reread fix!

Love when Muad'Dib Rand brings water to Arakeen Rhuidean. Always thought it signified the changing of the tides. This is probably the end of the Aiel as they are now. If they survive TG they will never be the same. Love the symbalism. R.Fife if it was you that posted "Dune-Kitty" yesterday I loved it. And you should repost it. hahahah

This is where, on my first read through, balefire became bonified badass! Its the Creators ultimate "undo button"

Mo finally!! You realize that maybe you being a typical AS stuck up biotch, might not work with your messiah. Way to go! Good for you! ...... argh. Love Lan's reaction, kind of a WTF look.

I liked the Mat and Milly relationship first time through..... sigh. This eventually leads to the Chivalrous (sp?) Mat and his slight case of Rand like "I dont hurt woman" syndrome. Still cool though. Love the scene where he kills her....that sounds really bad. Oh well

QUESTION:
Did Mo put the door frame on the back of the cart on purpose? Door facing the back? We were told she didnt know she would take Lanfear with her, but did she know she'd have to jump through that? I dont know if this is ever revealed.

EDIT: apparently strike through doesn't work today. TOR hates me
toryx
61. The Not So Dark One
CalaLily @59

That could be true, but I'm also guessing there was some part to about acting as they expect shorebound teachers to act, and that means obeying the Windfinders. Now she could have reasoned out to herself many ways out of that, and maybe she couldn't. Maybe she reasoned she was obeying Talan in taking her to Tar Valon. All I'm saying is it was left deliberately vague so the story could grow and not be constricted - we never hear the exact terms of the bargain. I just wouldn't be surprised if she turns out be black ajah, that's all.
Helen Peters
62. Helen
When Rand turned on the fountains, not just water, Aiel waste = hot sun,
sun + little droplets of water = RAINBOWS
I'd probably still be there.
toryx
63. CalaLily
Well, we know by the end of KoD that Careane certainly IS Black Ajah, so the possibility of more than one Black sister in the Palace is a very real one. However, I doubt it myself. :)

Who knows, I could be surprised when tGS comes out.

*counts down days until November*
toryx
64. The Not So Dark One
Yeah, I remember until that scene thinking than Vandene was the Black Sister who had killed her own Sister when she was found out, and thats why her investigation was going nowhere, then feeling a lil guilty when she gets her revenge regardless of the cost.
toryx
65. longtimefan
Just a thought on Thom's looks.

I always imagined him as Mark Twain.
toryx
66. Garstzilla
I think Rand is actually talking to the consciousness of Lews. Very first book doesn't it say Therin was acting like he was talking to someone else when he was found before he started calling for his wife. I remember a similar transformation for Thomas out of Fife’s Riftwar series.
Joseph Daly
67. Joed1414
I think that when Lews Therin created Dragonmount upon dieing he locked his soul into the mountain and when Rand was born on the slopes his soul entered Rand's body when he was born. If all the Forsaken can get new bodies if they die why not Lews Therin?
Roger Powell
68. forkroot
longtimefan@65

I always imagined him as Mark Twain.

I had a similar initial image but kept modifying it based on things like Thom's athleticism (he does handstands etc. in his gleeman act -- not to mention that he's a fairly impressive fighter.)

I think it's the white hair that throws us off initially.
Jason Deshaies
69. darxbane
I am also in the LTT "real" camp, even though the Tyler Durden option is appealing.

Channeling is different between men and women, so I guess it's possible that the male gateway weave must actually be completed to be taught, while the female gateway just needs the general pattern be seen. My opinion, though, is that Asmo was lying, because he was a scumbag who not only had his mother severed, but gave her to the Myrrdraahl. I can't believe you guys leave that part out. She was basically raped to death. Happy Mother's Day!!!
K F
70. TAmyrlinring1
Garstzilla@66

Hmm. I don't remember Therin talking to anyone not there, just calling for his wife and then Ishy, but now I'll take another look . . . but, I don't think we have the Tomas/Ashen Shugar paradox like in Feist. The prophecies here say that the Dragon will be reborn. Tomas, in Feist's series, was normal until he put on the Dragon Lord's armor, transmitting the essence/power of Ashen Shugar into him--so, he was already there. Here, from all information, LTT was already "there" in Rand, but is just manifesting since Rand began to channel. Although, I have to say the "battle" for control seems somewhat similar. I'll admit that I never thought of the LTT "consciousness" being a construct of Rand's insane mind--it's interesting. I went more the separate entity route. I think there was a viewing by Min of two men in Rand which initially led me that way. And, someone has to die at SG, we know that LTT wants to kick because of what he did to Ilyena, and by geez I don't want Rand to die, so it seems much more convenient if the LTT "part", "consciousness", separate person or whatever does the dieing there and Rand gets to hang around in the end.

EDIT: I meant that Tomas was already born before being "invaded" by Ashen Shugar as a boy when he put on the armor, and that here LTT has always been a part of Rand. Of course, I just saw a comment using Dragonmount for the transference--now that's interesting! (Would be a good reason to be born there . . .)
K F
71. TAmyrlinring1
Here's a fun question. If 13 dreadlords & Myrr can turn you to the dark side, then what can turn you to the light? And, if you can return to the light when a DF, why can't you after the DLs & Myrrs have had hold of you?

Anything short of death should be able to be healed. *sniff, pull braid*

Here's why I went down that line of thought--darkhounds. Darkhounds are the twisted souls of wolves . . . if they can be twisted, can they be, for lack of a better word, untwisted. And the same for those turned by the DLs & Myrrs? If so, what would the light equivalent of a Myrr be--Bella?
Joseph Daly
72. Joed1414
The Forsaken's convo in the last book when they talk about Rand going insane from having 2 souls in one body pretty much tells you that LTs soul is in his body. I'm wondering how they get his soul out and whos body they put it in. Maybe he can figure out in the next book.....
toryx
73. gambit
OK off topic Noal Charin is Demandred, they both in their descriptions have hooked noses... discuss.
toryx
74. Lsana
@57 The Not So Dark One, @59 CalaLily,

Merilill is a possible example of an Aes Sedai breaking a promise, although it is somewhat problematical due to a) The fact that we don't know whether or not she is Black Ajah, b) We don't know exactly what went on in her head at the time. Maybe she had to justify it to herself with some kind of "Well, I said that I'd teach them for a year, but I didn't say that it would be a consecutive year," or if she was just able to say, "I can't take it anymore!" and run off.

A better example would probably be Seaine. She promises to keep secret what Elaida tells her, then immediately turns around and tells Pevara everything. In Seaine's case, we know she isn't Black Ajah, and we do see her thoughts, and they don't involve any attempt to pretend she isn't breaking her promise.

==============================================

On the LTT/Rand topic:

I'm another one in the camp that says that Rand is LTT reborn, so the memories are real, the skills he gets from those memories are real, but the "Lews Therin" in his head is just a delusion created by his poor, taint-addled brain. If not for the taint, I think Rand would be a lot more like Mat: occasionally freaked out by the fact that he has things in his mind that don't come from this life, but able to draw on those skills and that knowledge without having to get instructions from the voice in his head.

For that matter, that's how it seems to work here. Rand's knowledge of balefire, and his mentions of the Can Breat and Mierin's past just come without any intervention from "Lews Therin." It's only later after the taint has had more time to affect Rand that "Lews Therin" starts talking to him.
toryx
75. Rebecca Starr
doh - yeah, I had a total mind blank on the wedding scene in TSR and Maiden's Kiss of course! (because I definitely think it involves more than just kissin')

I just saw the David Eddings news! So sad right now. After Tolkien, he was the one that got me hooked on the genre... and yes I even have a white birthmark. Sad.
Joseph Daly
76. Joed1414
@74
Then how do you explain the forsaken's conversation about there being 2 souls in his body? Not to mention Jordan is very clever. There was a reason he would be reborn on Dragonmount..so LTs soul could enter the child. I think channeling awakened that soul.
toryx
77. Lsana
@76 Joed1414,

I haven't re-read anything after book 7, so I don't remember the conversation you are referring to. My only memory of anything similar is Semirhage's comments after she's caught that suggest she thinks Rand is nuttier than the buffet at a squirrel convention.

Without being able to reference the specific situation, though, I would just say that the Forsaken don't have a clue what's going on in Rand's head. As they point out in the prologue to this book, the situation is unprecedented (or as unprecedented as anything can get when time is a wheel), and they don't have any clue exactly what The Dragon Reborn is or how it will play out.
Joseph Daly
78. Joed1414
I think it would be cool. I mean storing your soul in a mountain so it could be reborn one day to fight the dark one. Or maybe Ishy sealed his soul in the mountain so the chosen one would eventualy go crazy with 2 souls in his head. Or maybe the Creator did it so Rand would have the subconcious knowledge in his head to do things LT could do.
Jacob Lincoln
79. tomewyrm
I'm in the camp that thinks LTT's memories/experiences/knowledge/whatever are real, and leaking through for whatever reason. I'm still undecided on whether or not the voice of Lews is actually him, though from what I've gathered from the Heroes of the Horn talking about being respun, LTT shouldn't be a separate soul, Rand's soul should be LTT with a memory wipe.
Then again, LTT was crazy-strong, killed himself while nuttier than a jungle of walnut trees, using absolutely insane amounts of the power, and rand was born at the site of his previous life's death, he was a specific person reborn to fulfill prophecy. It's conceivable that Rand was supplanted/displaced/latched-onto by LTT's soul as though Rand is no more than a vessel.

I'd like to think LTT is real because that means that Rand isn't battier than Count Dracula's belfry, and also gives Paul... err... Rand a chance at living after TG (and that just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of Happily Ever After, or at least an ever after)

:)

@gambit 73
Noal Charin is actually Jain Farstrider, I don't think there's ever been concrete confirmation, but the consensus among the reference sites is that Noal is Jain
Hugh Arai
80. HArai
Bela is Jain Farstrider. Nobody covers ground like Bela.
toryx
81. toryx
Joed1414 @76

Then how do you explain the forsaken's conversation about there being 2 souls in his body?

Two ways: First, Robert Jordan actually came out and said publicly that there's one soul, two personalities. I was there on one of the occasions when he said it.

Second, the Forsaken don't know everything. They're wrong more often than they're right, and as such, are unreliable.
Joseph Daly
82. Joed1414
@81
Do you have a link where this is confirmed?
Hugh Arai
83. HArai
toryx@81:

I guess the question then becomes are the memories/abilities based in the soul or the personality. If it's the soul then the LTT in Rand's head could still be a "filter", if it's the personality then LTT must be "real".
toryx
84. two minds one heart
My feeling is that Rand is not the dragon reborn; LTT is the dragon, reborn in a surrogate body.

The prophecies say the dragon will be reborn - he was; inside a body that already had a soul attached to it.

I'm undecided as to whether the pattern intended LTT to fully take over at some point at the expense of Rand OR Rands body and personality is supposed to shepherd the batshit crazy LTT persona all the way until TG

Rand starting to channel is what has awakened LTT.

I think it is LTT himself talking to Rand. Based on the things he said I don't believe that Rand was worldly/sophisticated enough to have phrased the things in the way LTT talks to him
Elroy Skimms
85. elroyskimms
alreadymadwithgatewaylimits @ 58

Unfortunately, I am no longer the geek I was as a child.


I couldn't resist. All of the discussion on Traveling being "folding" or "pulling" the Pattern gave me flashbacks to, "A Wrinkle in Time". Never really liked the book, but the "tesseract" thing stuck.

-E
toryx
86. cor-darei4life
I was always of the impression, that LTT was real and the taint, broke down the "walls" separating Rand from his former life. Thus allowing some sort of communication.
Joseph Daly
87. Joed1414
On traveling....I think the reason reality is going bye bye is because of all the Male traveling going on. What is male traveling? They bore a hole in the pattern!!!! Rand set up the Black tower and there are literally hundreds of men boring holes into the pattern. This is what the whole "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" Thing is about. Why else would the Shadow send one of their dreadlords ,Taim, to help Rand form the Black Tower? So the Pattern would unravel.
toryx
88. Wolfmage
I really don't think it's plausible to think LTT's voice is not real. Are people just focusing on its cackling, killing impulses and grief-struck laments - and forgetting all the times it demonstrates detailed awareness, a hyper realistic LTT personality and knowledge of LTT's memories? Is the voice just meant to be a construct that happens to soak up many more things from the barrier separating Rand and LTT, insulating Rand? I don't buy it.

The voice has detailed knowledge of channelling, it reacts to Rand's perceptions directly (whistling, snide comments, and advice on topic); it even attempts to and succeeds at seizing and controlling Saidin. Those scenes where LTT takes Saidin never read to me like Rand is just overcome by psychosis, they read like an actual presence in Rand's head has taken control. The chapter Vows in KoD is particularly clear on this when LTT is pleading for Rand's body to raise his hands, with a clear intention to use Arrows of Fire with urgency. It would have to be one hell of a weird firewall in his head for that to be unreal.

Also, do you remember when the voice scoffs at Rand's thought that merchants types are slow to innovate when he is thinking about the steam wagon? Well, that is exactly what a leader and scholar from a modern age, with some knowledge of economics, would do.
toryx
89. jafco
Re: LTT and Rand

I think LTT is in T'A'R, but gibbering mad as he clearly was in the opening prologue ("Dragonmount") of the series. (We see exactly the same weepy scenes repeated in Rand's head as portrayed there.)

Why is he there? Beats me, but then why are Birgitte, A. Hawkwing, G. Cain and many others there? These latter heroic figures can be summoned back to the real world by blowing the Horn, or be ripped out of T'A'R by some overt act of a powerful channeler, or be spun out in in flesh and blood in another turn of the Wheel. (Extreme conservation of characters - at least those that somehow affect the Weave in a substantial way. The Creator, apparently, does take some actions to support His version of things winning out.) ;=)

Somehow, LTT's T'A'R being has become affixed in Rand's head - maybe it's a form of seeking out dreams, or as mentioned above, something that is related to Rand's birth on Dragonmount. However it comes about, LTT is real, mad, and separate. He's not a prior incarnation of Rand. Rand is unique, but afflicted (and maybe blessed) with the madness/knowledge of a giant like LTT to call on when he can. Mat got disparate memories; Rand got the greatest man of the past Age, although a man in bad shape.
Captain Hammer
90. Randalator
Artsapat @7

to Travel, you need to either "fold" the Pattern (Saidar) or make a "tear" in the Pattern (Saidin - I think this is explained somewhere in the next book)

Saidin: fold-and-poke routine
Saidar: creating a "same-ness" between places


Re: Travelling logic

Warning: Here be wild and random analogizing and it's coming right for you...

The whole concept reminds me of a funnel. For both saidin and saidar Travelling means bringing a destination to you, either through folding or making part of it the same as your current position. The small end is aimed at your current position, the wide end at your destination. And then you force the destination towards you through that funnel.

If your pouring water into a funnel the general direction suffices, because your pouring it into the wide end. That's the whole point of using a funnel in the first place. But you really have to know where the small end has to go or you're just gonna create a huge mess.

Now for Travelling that means that you just need a general idea of where your going and it will all snap into place. But you have to point the other end of the funnel correctly or you'll spill everything. And since it is essentially the pattern that you're spilling, I guess that would be really really bad.

At least that's my rationale for the topsy-turvy mechanics of Travelling...
James Jones
91. jamesedjones
67 & 87 Joed1414

Hello. Ok, first you suggest that LTT is another soul inhabiting Rand, a la Harry Potter; and now you suggest that saidin Traveling is destroying the pattern, even though it was the primary form of transportation for male channelers in the AOL. Is that about right?

If you've read the books, you've invested a few weeks worth of time into the story. Please spend a few more hours checking out these websites.

www.dragonmount.com
www.wotmania.com

and especially,

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/0_admin/0.01_intro.html

This is only if you're being serious about the ideas, since they have been hammered out already. I think you'll really enjoy the information.

If you're just trying to start some long discussions in the hopes of causing some glitches in Tor.com, well... we welcome your assistance. :)
Hugh Arai
92. HArai
Wolfmage@88:

I think I've been using real when I mean something more complicated. It seems confirmed the knowledge has to be coming from somewhere other than the "Rand al'Thor" personality. However, I still see two possibilities:

1) LTT is an independent personality that remembers being alive, like Birgitte remembers her previous lives and is tied to Rand's body because it's the same soul. This is what I've been calling "real".
or
2) Since Rand's soul came from the used bin, it has these memories/experiences imprinted on it and his mind has generated a second personality to deal with knowing all these things he can't possibly know. I see this kind of like Mat. Mat got a bunch of memory fragments and has trouble for a while distinguishing them from "his own" memories. Rand got an entire life intact and assigns them all to a second personality. This is what I've been calling a "filter".

Just a theory, without the support of any training or knowledge of RL people with multiple personalities.
toryx
93. Wolfmage
jafco @ 89

"I think LTT is in T'A'R, but gibbering mad as he clearly was in the opening prologue ("Dragonmount") of the series."

Yes, I could believe something like that. TAR is hugely significant in the overall physics of Randland and will probably be important in the Last Battle. We have plenty of evidence such as the Heroes of the Horn and Wolf Souls inhabiting TAR, to support the idea that TAR plays some kind of intermediation role between life and death.

It's also interesting here to recall Rand's upcoming battle with Rahvin in TAR, where Rahvin tries to deconstruct Rand's identity and superimpose LTT in control - as I believe that LTT's voice becomes pronounced from that point on in the story. My theory has always been that this battle produces a tear, where before there was only seeping cracks, which then allows LTT's voice to assert its self.

Of course, there is a problem with the balefire - but RJ is unclear about how that works in relation to actions in TAR. Rand balestine Rahvin so much that Mat is alive, however, Nynaeve still has to heal his bite wounds which were sustained by Rahvin thinking in TAR. So there is a possibility that balefire doesn't undo stuff done in TAR properly.

HArai @ 92

Hi thanks. Yes, I think option 1 is hugely more supported by the text. I still think LTT is just too fleshed out, realistic and nuanced, down to his personality ticks, AoL values and speaking idioms, for him to be a mere coping mechanism / split-off which has simply soaked up all the inherited memories. A psychosis induced voice wouldn't be so consistently true to the real LTT and it wouldn't be so reflective either.
Lannis .
94. Lannis
As always, thanks for the recap, Leigh! :)

Re: the Wise Ones' rings... if it shows you all possible outcomes of a certain situation... well... I guess we know what took Moiraine so long to return from the naked run to Rhuidean...

alreadymad @ 9: re: LTT's voice... I totally agree with you there... it's more the fact that Rand can hear LTT's voice in his head that gets him (Rand) all jumpy about going mad--not any actual madness in LTT's voice or what he says. (Mind you, when the whole Rand-in-a-box happens, the pair of them get a little loopy, but who wouldn't?)

But I'm on the side that it's actually LTT who's coming through--not some self-preservation construct. It's just too freaking cool! If it's a Rand-made phenomenon, it reeks too much of those crazy episodes of [insert TV show name here] where the characters act outrageously or events are completely off the wall... and then the title character wakes up... and it was all a dream. Grr to cop outs.
toryx
95. alreadymadwithLTTgibberish
Wolfmage @93
Now why would Rahvin try to deconstruct Rand and superimpose LTT? It makes absolutely no sense. Rand alone was strong enough to send him running. Why replace that with the obviously more formidable LTT? Rahvin wouldn't have stood a chance.
Rahvin was trying to devolve Rand into something less than human.
T C
96. Freelancer
Gads, non-stop meetings all day, and now there's near 100 comments to face already.

Lsana@8

Egwene could find Kadere and Isendre's dreams, because they are run-of-the-mill DFs. No way she's going to get into Lanfear or Asmodean's dreams, they know they're toast if they're uncovered, so those dreams are locked up tight. The text never mentions that she tried, and I'm normally not one for conjecture about actions that are not supported by the text. And yet, would Egwene rather know what was in a "random merchant's" mind, or that of Jasin Natael, rand's personal gleeman? I could imagine she tried, and also that she wouldn't think much of not being able to find his dreams, since she's just beginning to get the hang.


More than one comment referred to LTT dying where he created Dragonmount, and that he was insane when he did so. Not quite so, Ishamael had Healed him of his insanity, and LTT knew precisely what he was doing, it was a form of suicide that he felt he deserved since he had slain everyone he loved.

Helen@27

Moiraine doesn't lie to Rand in that sequence. She tells him that she won't be with him forever. Oblique enough. She then outlines some potential events that could theoretically be responsible for her being "not with him". She isn't saying any of those will happen. She knows something about what will happen, but cannot tell him the whole truth about it. Why isn't said. Perhaps during her trip through the Rhuidean rings she sees that telling anyone the details brings bad results. Not that Moiraine requires a reason to keep information to herself.

If there's one AS we can be sure isn't BA, it's Moiraine. From New Spring, her and Siuan are the first Tower sisters to know that the BA is real. Moiraine is the first to kill a member of the BA, in Chachin during the beginning of her hunt for the Dragon. Besides, if she were BA, what would be the motivation for seeing that Lan stays safe for Nynaeve? What would be her motivation for facing off with Lanfear? Why would she have balefired Be'lal?

In a soft form of the epic Law of first mention, our first Aes Sedai character is a true hero of the story.
toryx
97. jafco
@93. Wolfmage

"...Hi thanks. Yes, I think option 1 {LTT is a real being; ed.} is hugely more supported by the text. I still think LTT is just too fleshed out, realistic and nuanced, down to his personality ticks, AoL values and speaking idioms, for him to be a mere coping mechanism / split-off which has simply soaked up all the inherited memories. A psychosis induced voice wouldn't be so consistently true to the real LTT and it wouldn't be so reflective either...."

I like that explanation and wish I had written it! LTT is the real deal. By the same token, Rand's journey through the columns in Rhuidean show someone who is descended from contemporaries of LTT. Also, Rand's long trip through the Portal Stone worlds in tGH do not show him to be a rebirth of LTT. So far we've never seen one iota of those memories recalled by Rand (Mat and Perrin said a little about it, just enough to know that things could have been far different from this time), but he has them, and he still wonders what the heck this mad man/insanity is in his head. Obviously, in however many other possible worlds, Rand and LTT are not the same, and therefore seemingly never connected.
T C
98. Freelancer
Tamyrlinring1@43

That would be Sam Elliot. Not a fan, myself, though he is surely talented. If he were in the cast of WoT, I'd rather he were King Alsalam.


Hoping@49

Yes, strangely I don't think Lanfear ever out-and-out lies to Rand. She's just that loopy. She's the anti-Moiraine. Poor Rand.


RE: Asmodean saying he couldn't teach Rand the weave for Traveling because of the shield

This is a BFL. The weave is not that much different, and there is a huge difference between making a weave form, and getting it to operate. He simply didn't want Rand to have that advanced toy. This reminds me. When it came up in the last book, people asked why Asmo Skimmed to Rhuidean instead of Traveling. I suggest that when a person sees an open Traveling gateway, there is a much better chance that they could replicate the destination, whereas with Skimming, you'd have to find the other person "by chance" in the in-between place. Rand succeeded in the latter, not because he was looking for Asmodean, but because he happened to be going to the same place. So Asmo Skimmed to keep his destination secret, which turned out a massive fail.


Garstzilla@66

Tomas, Pug's boyhood friend in Feist's Midkemia epic, goes through an internal war when the dragonlord psyche is insinuated into him via the armor (yet another plot of Macros the Black). The Valheru essence becomes a permanent part of Tomas, but his own personality came through the struggle as dominant. Differences from WoT are that Ashen-shugar was never a part of Tomas before he put on the armor, and that Tomas is physically changed as well, becoming a very large, very muscular, and very long-lived human.


Joed1414@67

I think you're ascribing to a human a very deific capability there. Lews is just zis guy, you know? He can't lock his soul into anywhere. It's not like the prophecies already existed, and he said to himself, "Self, you need your soul to park somewhere awaiting the next guy, who will get it right". Besides, this universe has a place set aside for just such things as non-living souls, Tel'Aran'Rhiod.


Gah, I see Tamyrlinring1 is a Feist afficionado. Heh. Leaving mine up there anyway.


LTT is real. Wolfmage made all the appropriate arguments. The extra construction involved in having knowledge-leakage from the deepest darkest pit of the souls memories, and a Freudian psychotic split assigning a fabricated personality to all that leaked data as a coping mechanism, just a bit unwieldy for me.
toryx
99. Wolfmage
alreadymadwithLTTgibberish @ 95

"Now why would Rahvin try to deconstruct Rand and superimpose LTT? It makes absolutely no sense. Rand alone was strong enough to send him running. Why replace that with the obviously more formidable LTT? Rahvin wouldn't have stood a chance.
Rahvin was trying to devolve Rand into something less than human."

Well, that is only an objection if you think Rahvin was superimposing a sane and in control LTT on Rand. But I don't for a second think that was Rahvin's intention. For the sake of argument, whether he is creating an artificial LTT or working to assert he primary of the real one, I think we can safely assume the objective was to swap Rand for a crazy and unreliable antagonist.

Now, at this point it makes sense to pose the question why Rahvin would have tried this at all, when he could have just as easily changed Rand into a child or a horse, ala Moggy, but that isn't fatal to what I've said. It could be a tactical failure by Rahvin, or it could be that there was some purpose to making Rand LTT that we don't know. Or it may that given Rahvin's TAR skills, it was just easier to impose a LTT, and he thought it was enough to give him an edge over Rand with an angreal.

I'm kind of puzzled by you're surprised by my citing this event of imposing LTT. I'm not making this stuff up. I think it's a fairly straight forward interpretation of what Rahvin did based strictly on the text of that battle. One moment Rand is cruising along in TAR after Rahvin, the next he is being transformed into LTT. What are you suggesting happened there if not Rahvin trying to impose LTT on Rand?
toryx
100. Planeswalker
Funny how everyone comments the order of who lost their virginity first between RMP. But has anyone ever wondered from the Supergirl's side? Or anyone of the leading female chars for that matter? Min, Elayne, Aviendha? Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine (she's still a virgin, right?) and whoever else?

On Chapter 6, I really liked Lanfear's reaction here to Lews Therin calling her. Man, she really is CRAZY in love... pitiful... but admirable in a way...
toryx
101. toryx
Joed1414 @82.

Do you have a link where this is confirmed?

It's in the FAQ. Scroll down a few paragraphs on that page and you'll find it reference to a Barnes & Noble signing in New York.

Myself, I heard him say it (and asked him to repeat it) at Archon (outside St. Louis Missouri on the Illinois side of the Mississippi) back in 2001. I'd spent about an hour and a half sitting with Harriet while RJ was signing books, answering questions and talking about his next (sadly, never to be written now) series.

Of course, that was after Winter's Heart, so who knows? Maybe he changed his mind. But I'll believe him before I trust the word of any idiot Forsaken.
toryx
102. toryx
Freelancer @ 98

The extra construction involved in having knowledge-leakage from the deepest darkest pit of the souls memories, and a Freudian psychotic split assigning a fabricated personality to all that leaked data as a coping mechanism, just a bit unwieldy for me.

Given that in the real world, people split off different personalities all the time as a coping mechanism for things they cannot handle without the corrupting influence of saidin's taint screwing with their mind, I can't see how you'd find it that unwieldy.

We know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. We know that reincarnation exists in Randland; Brigitte is living proof of it. We also know that the memories of these past lives survive, even if they don't usually crop up until after death.

The effect of the taint is a relatively reasonable explanation for those memories to break through to Rand's consciousness. After living his entire life with the concept that Lews Therin is the worst thing that ever happened to the world outside the Dark One breaking free from his prison and the additional belief that the worse thing that could ever happen is for the Dragon to be Reborn, it makes perfect sense that the notion that he and Lews Therin are the same, separated only by a lifetime's experience would force him to deal with it in unhealthy ways. Such as giving Lews Therin a voice, a presence that doesn't exist.

In other words, constructing a consciousness that can explain why he's suddenly remembering things he has no business remembering.

I don't think that's unwieldy at all. Psychologically, it's quite plausible.
toryx
103. Kaboom
I'm also in the camp that LTT is real.

Besides that is crucial for my interpretation of how the men channelers get mad(written late in the last post). The taint is only indirectly causing the men to become mad. It principally cause a leakage of the reincarnated soul and that manifestation (voice or other) is what gets the men mad since they can't deal with it very well.
Michael Johnson
104. twosheddz
Freelancer @96

You're right about Ishy healing LTT's insanity so that he could get the full effect of what he had done. However, that realization quite likely could have caused a psychotic break resulting in him being insane all over again. So, I agree that he may have in fact been insane when he went poof!
toryx
105. Wolfmage
"I don't think that's unwieldy at all. Psychologically, it's quite plausible."

I would again refer you back to the personality ticks, the habits, the idioms of speech, the AoL values, and the detailed knowledge of a lifetime's worth of channelling which is exhibited by the voice throughout the books.

If we accept this theory, then we essentially must believe a psychosis-induced personality is so miraculously exact in its mimicry of a real, reactive perspective that it is indistinguishable from a real voice. In other words, if it was a computer it would pass the Turing test. That seems to be a gratuitous argument to make when we can more readily suppose it is actually a real voice.

The consistency of the voice in its identity is unerring. Even if we assume for a second that it was plausible that certain voiced thoughts could be puppet-emoted by Rand's sub-conscious as part of a re-constructed basic LTT-like identity, which was formed through his mental defences and the taint, it is a big stretch to suppose such a voice would inherit all the details of LTT's life in such a comprehensive way, and show such perfect mimicry of LTT's perspective, as demonstrated by the voice in the books. Some might be explained by drifted memories - but the Rand couldn't piece together LTT so well alone.

For example, I again don't see how a constructed voice would scoff at the idea of merchants being resistant to change. That observation seems purely based on the application of LTT's theoretical knowledge about economics and social theory - an esoteric domain. But this isn't just a random tidbit of knowledge, it is the voice reacting to Rand's generalisation about the merchant class, based on the application of critical thinking. I don't see as plausible that Rand's head is just doing all the work, under some notion of a mental defence split personality.
j p
106. sps49
@ 100 Planeswalker-

I don't think Mo is cherry, she's a sophisticated city girl (even follows the "my roommate in college" trope!). And except for Rand's girls, we don't know about the others, but I doubt if they ever had the opportunity.

And I, too, loved that moment from Lanfear. Almost mkaes you think she could've been redeemed....
Hugh Arai
107. HArai
Wolfmage@99:
I'm kind of puzzled by you're surprised by my citing this event of imposing LTT. I'm not making this stuff up. I think it's a fairly straight forward interpretation of what Rahvin did based strictly on the text of that battle. One moment Rand is cruising along in TAR after Rahvin, the next he is being transformed into LTT. What are you suggesting happened there if not Rahvin trying to impose LTT on Rand?


Well reading that section I see the following:
1. Rand starts to become insubstantial.
2. There's a NO! I am Lews Ther- and LTT's image begins to form.
3. Rand breaks in with I am Rand al'Thor and returns to solid.
4. Rand wonders why LTT tried to take him over.
Thinks about it and realize it was Rahvin making him fade and that it was asserting his personality that beat the attack.

Rather than believe Rahvin tried to make Rand into LTT for some reason, I conclude Ravhin tried to unmake Rand altogether (as Rand concludes in the text), the LTT personality realizes what is happening and tries to assert itself to block it, and the Rand personality immediately asserts itself "in defence".

This makes much more sense in terms of Rahvin's tactics.
Hugh Arai
108. HArai
Wolfmage@105:

I don't insist on the split personality interpretation. However, I'm not sure why you find the consistency of the LTT personality such a strong indication. If Mat can be spliced with experiences/knowledge from many lives to the extent that like Birgitte he catches cultural references and jokes from hundreds of lives without thinking about it, why is it a stretch that Rand has access to his soul's last life in its entirety? I'm not sure why you feel he would have to piece it together. Birgitte doesn't have to and that's hundreds of lives not just one extra.
toryx
109. CalaLily
"I don't see as plausible that Rand's head is just doing all the work, under some notion of a mental defence split personality."

lol, now I'm thinking of House seeing/hearing Amber.
john massey
110. subwoofer
woah! I'm a little late on the scene but I must give respect where it is due. @34 lostmypassword, heavy news. Still processing it. I remember the covers of the Belgariad, they were like something out of a cheesy 70's mural. Once you get into them though it was good reading with very relatible characters.

Much like Star Trek, the main crew always put themselves in harms way... but I digress. One of the things that sticks out to me was a quote by Belgarath. It is late and I am... tired so bare with me..."do you honestly think that anyone can live on the earth for 8000 years and not develop some kind of humor about the world"... True words. You can't take yourself or life too seriously and enjoy things. Laughter is key.

Hi Leigh... no one is going to fine you, and I always appreciate your honesty. Honestly.
toryx
111. Valan
@ Wolfmage
If we accept this theory, then we essentially must believe a psychosis-induced personality is so miraculously exact in its mimicry of a real, reactive perspective that it is indistinguishable from a real voice. In other words, if it was a computer it would pass the Turing test. That seems to be a gratuitous argument to make when we can more readily suppose it is actually a real voice.


I am firmly in the camp that Rand is batshit crazy. As far as Lews Therin's exact personality and ticks and such, the only evidence we have to go on comes from Lews Therin's voice. This makes all such evidence entirely irrevelent.

There is another key piece of evidence, however, which is this very scene where he talks to Mierin/Lanfear. However, it is very apparent, that whoever's talking is not insane. And I have to disagree with whoever said above that Lews therin's voice is not necessarily insane. I most certainly assert the opposite.

Therefore what we have is indeed a schizophrenic defence mechanism going on, induce by the taint, in which Rand creates a seperate personality to deal with all the information coming to him through his soul. There is evidence to this in Mat's old blood sequences where he suddenly remembers the old tongue.

However, thats Mat. This is the Dragon Reborn, Savior and Destroyer of the World and is entitled to more info because of his uber ta'vereness if nothing else.
john massey
112. subwoofer
As for Rand and LTT, I am not sure how to put this into words, so here goes... LTT is the Dragon. His rebirth is the only one of all the Heroes of Legend that is in prophecy. At every battle of power LTT is present. The Dragon is tied to the Wheel and spun out in every age to battle the DO. I think Ishamael claims that he and LTT have fought each other countless times since the dawn of mankind.

Rand is the current or end product of the Pattern and of prophecy. The link with him and LTT is real and I think that LTT being spun out time and time again is a unique occurance as the Dragon is unique. It is possible that LTT, being linked to the Wheel has a spirit that attaches to the current incarnation of the Dragon. That is how Cadsuane knows about voices, as it has happened before her eyes in the past and that is how LTT is doomed to always be reborn.
Joseph Blaidd
113. SteelBlaidd
Regarding the Rand/LTT personality debate I again urge everyone to read The Personality Integration of Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon as the most detailed examination of the subject.

There seems to be two main debates in the thread regarding this issue.

1. Do we have 2 souls/1 body or 2 personalities/1 soul.
Word of God says two personalities one soul.

2.Is LTT a separate (I.E. Real)Personality or a coping mechanism.
This is a bit more complicated question, in part because, I think, it is a false dichotomy. In other words, the Lews Therin that speaks as a voice in Rand's head is BOTH a fully formed personality, specifically the last known incarnation of the soul currently known as Rand Al'Thor(personally I believe that he has been incarnated other times during this age just not as 'The Dragon Reborn'), AND a coping mechenism that Rand uses to deal with his awareness of the memories and emotions of his previous life as well as the emotional and psychological stress of being and accepting being 'The Dragon Reborn.'

From Maggie's Essay
Rand is the Dragon Reborn. In Book 3, The Dragon Reborn, Rand accepted the duty of being the Dragon Reborn, but he had not accepted the reality of being Lews Therin Telemon reborn. And he must do this if he is going to defeat the Dark One.

Everybody in the Wheel of Time world is somebody reborn, but people are usually pretty much unconscious of their previous personalities. The taint on saidin seems to break down the barrier between them, and this problem of more than one conscious person in one body seems to be part of the madness that affects male channelers.

For Rand, the problem seems worst when the two personalities mix together, screwing up all his instincts and reactions, both physical and emotional. This is a major cause of the anger and rage that become so prevalent in his character.

Sometimes, Rand is able to deal with this problem of emerging awareness of LTT's soul (personality?) by hearing LTT speak as a voice in his head. It's an unconscious defense that lets Rand reject that other personality when he needs to. This makes it possible for him to keep LTT separate, and claim his body as his own.

Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. (Lord of Chaos, p.104)

In spite of Rand's maintaining some separation, during Lord of Chaos and A Crown of Swords, LTT has become more and more a part of Rand, as Rand takes on LTT's memories, abilities, behavior patterns, and speech patterns. Egwene knows this. She speaks of seeing another man looking out of Rand's eyes. Rand doesn't know. He thinks Lews Therin is a voice and he is afraid of LTT taking him over, but he doesn't recognize what's going on. He is, however, fiercely determined that if he must die at Tarmon Gai'don, he will die as himself--Rand al'Thor.

Rand is definitely walking the edge of madness, with uncontrollable anger and other emotional upset, constantly wrestling for control with LTT, the personality that is becoming strong enough and aware enough to influence him.

All of this comes to a head on page 331 of Crown of Swords, when Cadsuane asks Rand whether he hears voices, then tells him that hearing voices is part of the madness. Rand doesn't hear the voice of LTT after this. Here's the reason: Cadsuane has identified his unconscious defense mechanism, brought his attention to it in a different way. After she calls it madness, making him aware of it, making him think about it differently, he can't do it anymore.

Now he's worse off. He still has this problem of two personalities, added to the other difficulties of being the Dragon Reborn. He doesn't have a way to deal with it, yet he can't escape. The duty is still there.

That unfocused rage inside him settles on his self-image. He hurls away the Dragon scepter, smashes the Dragon throne, breaks the mirrors in the room, and goes into a real funk. Min breaks through all this, treats him like a person, (thank you, Min) and they *comfort* each other.

Afterwards, Rand's reaction to the comforting seems all out of proportion, unless you consider that his and Min's off-screen action must have been more violent (or perhaps just more mature) than anything Rand considered acceptable, AND unless you realize that more was going on than just an excess of hormones and passion. Rand lost control, and what he lost control to was the LTT part of himself. (All along, LTT seems to be a lot lustier than Rand, and he's certainly more experienced.) This is a big part of what Rand can't accept, what makes an emotional and sexual interaction that was totally acceptable to Min seem abominable to Rand.

There's more to it than that, though. Rand and LTT are coexisting but the result is uneven, unhappy, insane. Since losing "LTT's voice", Rand has lost much of his ability to be the dominant personality. His subconscious is a battlefield, and he spends those next days and nights (after Cadsuane's visit) unable to sleep except to be overwhelmed by nightmares. He refuses to see anyone, less because of ordinary anger or shame, than because suddenly he has no "self" to put on, no identity to wear in public, a feeling more naked (more shameful) than most of us can imagine.

While he hides away from everyone, Rand says over and over, "I am the Dragon Reborn". He is tormented by it. He seems to be wallowing in a very LTT-influenced frame of mind. "What a fool he had been to want to live past Tarmon Gai'don. He did not deserve to." Crown of Swords (522)

How many times had LTT's voice said, "Let me die. I deserve only death"? In the past, it had been LTT's voice, and Rand only had to listen to it. He can't make that distinction any more, so the death-wish is part of himself and it's dragging him under.

Min comes to Rand, talks to him. (Why didn't they talk sooner?) She tells him she loves him, and that Elayne and Aviendha love him, too. This is a tremendous thing, because he is a person who has a lot of love to give, but thinks that as the Dragon Reborn, he is both unworthy and unable to give it. He's certainly had very little hope of any love being returned. Suddenly, out of the blue, he finds out that not only Min, but all three girls love him. It's the best thing that has happened to him in years, and it anchors his self-image to something good, for a change. This revelation triggers the turning point for Rand and LTT.

It happens on page 525 of A Crown of Swords, Chapter 33 (A Bath):

He raised his right hand and studied the flat of his palm, where the branded heron stood clear, then looked at her. She eyed his hand warily and shifted herself on his knees, then conspicuously ignored everything except his face.

"I won't go, Rand," she said quietly.


His hand is in the traditional gesture of offering. It makes sense that he is thinking that all he can offer her is the Dragon Reborn, with all that entails, including madness, death, LTT, and danger to her. Min accepts that, and it "makes all his troubles shrink". He accepts himself then--Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telemon, both.

After that, there is a shift in the way Rand talks and acts. He even seems to move differently. And Robert Jordan states, over and over, that the difference is significant.

Min grumbles, "You're in love with the Dragon Reborn, Min Farshaw, and best you remember it. Best you did too, Rand."


Rand agrees to see the Sea Folk, whom he had been avoiding because he had wanted to protect them from being tangled in the prophecies of the Dragon. He goes so far opposite as to say that "now the Sea Folk can kneel to the Dragon Reborn in all his splendor." (A Crown of Swords p.526)

Rand asks for Min's viewing, and Min tells him, "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another". She follows with her worries about which one dies, but Rand isn't bothered by that at all. He's grinning. He goes on to think, "One lived and one died, but he had known for a long time that he was going to die. " (A Crown of Swords, A Bath, pg. 526) (Something about this last statement lets the reader feel the one-ness in Rand. He takes her worries about two people, dismisses them as a sure thing for one person.)

Rand doesn't have any experience with the concepts of multiple personalities. He interprets Min's viewing as a sign that the voice was real, so he's jubilantly relieved. "At least he was not mad. Or not as mad as he had feared." (A Crown of Swords p.526)

The chapter ends with the bath with Min and the Maidens. It states, "Rand al'Thor" (the personal Rand, the one who had previously owned the naked body) "might have been routed in a bathtub, but the Dragon Reborn was going to the Sea Folk in a style that would send them plummeting to their knees with awe." (A Crown of Swords p.528) Again, Jordan is restating and highlighting the change.

The next two chapters (Ta'veren and Into the Woods) describe Rand's manic assertion of himself as the Dragon Reborn. This is uppermost in Rand's mind and everyone else's. The chapters are loaded with Dragon symbolism (the word Dragon comes up 18 times) and full of ta'veren-ness, and after all, who could be more ta'veren than the Dragon Reborn when being fully himself, not fighting himself?

Note: In some ways, this whole business reminds me of those horrible parlor games, where there is a joke or trick that is hidden in full sight. (Chinese Numbers, I Take the Scissors Crossed and pass them Uncrossed, etc.) Once it is seen, it is so obvious that you can't believe you didn't get it right away. I think Jordan is telling us straight out, over and over, what happened here. --M.H.

Check it out for yourself. If you've lent your book to someone, you may never get it back. Just order a new one. Once you notice this stuff, it's like reading a new book.


There is a lot of other really good stuff that helps make a whole lot of books 6-8 make a lot more sense in the rest of the essay.
toryx
114. Wolfmage
Valan @ 111.


"I am firmly in the camp that Rand is batshit crazy. As far as Lews Therin's exact personality and ticks and such, the only evidence we have to go on comes from Lews Therin's voice. This makes all such evidence entirely irrevelent."

I know what you're arguing here - that the evidence is circular because it is attested only by LTT's voice itself. But that ignores Rand's certainty that it is LTT's habits, like whistling and thumbing his ear, as opposed to just the reader seeing what the voice does and assuming it is LTT. Also, that doesn't help with the voice's intricate knowledge of the power, or its applied knowledge of things which are beyond Rand's ken.

Again we are forced to assume that Rand is assimilating a lifetimes worth of knowledge in a separate functional personality, which mimics a perfect AoL perspective to the impartial observer, unbeknownst to his conscious mind. That is, if you'll forgive me, always going to be a clumsy elaborate theory when we have an easier, parsimonious theory which fits the observed facts.

"There is evidence to this in Mat's old blood sequences where he suddenly remembers the old tongue. "

That's not relevant. Mat has two sources for his memories. One is the old blood, (not his reincarnated soul btw), which produces one battle flash back, an old tongue battle cry, and some limited snippets of old tongue words or phrases. Such genetic memory language through the old blood, as demonstrated by Mat, and as explained by Birgitte later - are never fully comprehended or at the subject's conscious disposal. They are like wispy bit that cross the boundaries between lives - nothing like LTT's concrete and vivid perspective.

The other source of Mat's memories is obviously the 'finn's wish, which gives him an array of memories from adventurers and battle leaders, which grants him comprehensive usage of the old tongue.

Rand's LTT voice is completely different. Rand's voice has a fully fleshed out AoL perspective.
Alice Arneson
115. Wetlandernw
Late in getting here. Oy! The whole LTT personality thing leaves me totally stone cold, so I'll go stick my spoon in a different pot. With one other thought: If you had all that going on in your head, you'd be carrying on cranky too.

I don't really have too much problem with the whole "other peoples' dreams" thing the way it's used here. I'll freely admit that the wrong person could seriously abuse it, but... To start with, the ability is limited to Wise Ones. The knowledge, however, is pretty common in the Aiel culture, so everyone knows about their ability to touch dreams and no one minds. The big thing is, though, they don't just go randomly poking around in other folks' dreams. Primarily, they use it to communicate with other Wise Ones and clan chiefs who are at a distance, and it sure beats sending runners! The message gets there clearly, ungarbled, instantly. Just at this point, Egwene is learning and isn't all that good at finding dreams. Later, when she has learned more about it, she's also learned the responsibility to use it carefully (with one notable and often gag-worthy exception). After she gets past that annoying lets-go-get-caught-in-Gawyn's-dream-for-fun, she pretty much uses it the same way the Wise Ones do - to communicate important info to those she trusts. IIRC, there's a place where she's really annoyed about Rand's shielded dreams because she really wants to tell him something important and she has no other way to reach him.

Oy. It's getting late and I'm not sure I'm coherent any more. If that doesn't make any sense, don't flame me for it in the morning. I won't read it until Friday anyway. :)

David Eddings. Wow. I really enjoyed his work. Great sense of humor, which a lot of sf/fantasy writers seem to lack. Even made sly fun of himself and the genre in the middle of stories and it slid right in seamlessly. Oh, and whoever... Polgara's father was Belgarath.

Was that a slam on L'Engle? I love those books. Tesseract indeed.

Valan: is that a nod to B5?
j p
116. sps49
Do all these tesseract mentions remind anyone of Heinlein's "-And he Built a Crooked House"?
Noton Yourlife
117. Roxinos
In starting this post, I must say, just because I'm honorable like that, that I was wrong about my assertions in the previous re-read post that the Dragon has never turned to the Shadow in any previous turning of the Wheel. I was proven wrong.

Moving on.

Traveling: I’m sorry, but that whole “you have to know where you are, not where you’re going” thing is one of the most counterintuitive One Power concepts in all of WOT, if you ask me. It makes no sense. How do you tell it where to go if you don’t know where you’re going?


Indeed, it is rather counter-intuitive. However, it isn't the same type of "know" as you would imagine. You can sit in a field with your eyes closed for 30 minutes and stand up "knowing" the field.

What's interesting is that you need to know the starting point well, and you don't need to know the end point at all for Traveling. But when you Travel to somewhere, the time it takes to "know" the place the gateway opens is severely cut (practically to the point where you're able to immediately open another gateway). This is the logic behind the rapid gateway leaps to move large armies later on in the series.

On the other hand, Skimming requires you to "know" your destination very well, and your starting point almost not at all. And the same logic for Skimming works for Traveling but in reverse. If you open a gateway for Skimming to a place that you know, you will almost immediately "know" the place that you're currently at. So you can use that technique to learn areas you're new to and then open a Travel gateway.

This was always one thing I just chalked up to It's Magic Stupid.

Did I tell you guys what my personal Lews Therin theory is yet?


If Rand has the memories and soul of Lews Therin, and an alternate personality is created which shares the soul and memories of Lews Therin, then what is the difference between the "real" Lews Therin and this "fake" personality, eh?

I posit there is no difference. Regardless of if the personality in Rand's head is "truly" Lews Therin or just a schizo personality created by the taint, the end result is the same. Lews Therin is in Rand's head. A batshit insane Lews Therin, but Lews Therin Telamon nonetheless.

Of course, that position is just an excuse to not really take a side. Lews Therin is real insofar as he contains everything needed to be labeled real. He has a soul (though he shares it with another personality). He has a personality. He has memories of his own. Etc. Etc. So whether or not he is induced by Rand's insanity, he is a separate personality and he has a soul and memories, and thus he is real. Just as a person with split personality disorder has two distinct and real people. (Except, on a more awesome level because souls are real in Randland.)

@7/Artsapat:

The same holds for "skimming": you move, even if you don't feel it and you know when you arrived. Just a matter of "reading the Pattern".


Not exactly the same. Read my above comment on Traveling vs. Skimming. But I'm pretty sure that your point still stands (regardless of its validity, I don't know) in spite of it.

@8/Lsana:

There seems to be an assumption that the First Oath prevents them from breaking a promise. I don't think that's true.


Regardless of if it does or does not is besides the point. People do not hold only Aes Sedai to their oaths. See the scene in which Min, Siuan, and Leane give their oaths to Gareth Bryne to stay and work off their debt. Oaths are not regarded in Randland as they are regarded in our world. They are a thing of honor, just as in our world. But honor in Randland means a lot more than honor in our world.

Moreover, the oath Moiraine gave to Rand was meant to have Rand learn to trust her. If she gives him her oath that she will obey him, and she does not follow the oath, then she has essentially destroyed her last chance to ever get Rand to trust her. And she needs Rand to trust her.

The fact that an Aes Sedai says, "I'm wearing a blue dress," doesn't prevent her from changing into a red one later in the evening.


Completely faulty logic, no matter its validity (which I'm not commenting on). The First Oath prevents her from telling a lie. Stating a fact of the nature of the present is not made a lie later on. She could not say something like, "I'm always going to wear a red dress," because she knows it is not true. One speaks only towards the present and one speaks about the present and the future.

To actually comment on whether or not such a sentiment would be true (that sentiment being statements of the future such as oaths are binding under the First Oath) is a little more difficult. There really isn't enough information to decide on whether or not the First Oath would prevent retroactively making a statement a lie. We know for certain someone would not be able to say an oath that they did not intend on keeping because that would be a lie period. So in essence, the oath is upheld because the Aes Sedai has no intention of breaking the oath upon making it.

Does that mean she can't break the oath, though? No idea.

Otherwise, why bother making them swear 3 Oaths rather than just the first, then promising not to attack anyone or make a weapon?


Answering this question directly is easy. Regardless of the actual nature of oath-breaking surrounding the First Oath, this question is very easy to answer.

The Three Oaths were invented for a reason. It was not to actually prevent the Aes Sedai from doing the things that the Oaths prevented them from doing. Certainly, no person would willingly take a binding oath to never lie without a very good reason. That very good reason was to get people to trust them.

Remember, the Aes Sedai caused the Breaking. Memories of that are still passed down some 3000 years after the Breaking. Regardless of if it were men or women, it is known that Aes Sedai caused it. But in order to help the world get through the time of crisis after the Breaking, they needed to have people trust them. So what do you do? You take Oaths that address people's fears.

People think Aes Sedai are all liars. You take an Oath that prevents you from lying.

People think Aes Sedai can kill them all wily-nilly using the Power. You take an Oath that prevents you from hurting anyone with the Power except Shadowspawn and Darkfriends.

People think the Aes Sedai may not be too neutral and may support an army in a war using the Power to forge weapons. You take an Oath that prevents you from creating anything with the Power that will be used for war.

Aside from the actual effects of the Three Oaths, they're very good motivators to get people to trust them. It's all for showmanship.

@9/alreadymad:

You need to anchor your self to your current location.


Then what about Skimming where you don't need to know your starting point but rather your destination?

@27/Helen:

In addition to what a couple of others have said: an Aes Sedai can say something which is not meant to be taken as literal truth (they can use sarcasm, figures of speech, idioms, etc.) without breaking the First Oath.

@54 and 55/TAmyrlinring1 and hoping:

Given Asmodean's conversation with Rand about why Asmodean doesn't try to go back to the Shadow and why he's actually helping Rand (when he doesn't have to), I think it's quite clear that he isn't lying. Asmodean only joined the Shadow so that he could live forever and practice his music forever. He was never actually a believer in the cause. Is he evil? Quite so, but he is nowhere near as conniving as any of the other Chosen. Once he has had his immortality taken from him, he said himself, the only choice he has is to grasp for the nearest hope, no matter how unlikely (like the story of the man who fell off a cliff and grabbed for a tuft of grass knowing the grass could not hold him).

Asmodean has absolutely no reason to lie.

@66/Garstzilla:

Very first book doesn't it say Therin was acting like he was talking to someone else when he was found before he started calling for his wife.


Nope, never happened.

@71/TAmyrlinring1:

If 13 dreadlords & Myrr can turn you to the dark side, then what can turn you to the light? And, if you can return to the light when a DF, why can't you after the DLs & Myrrs have had hold of you?


There is no equivalent for the Light. The very reason the method works is because the Myrddraal exist. There is no equivalent on the side of the Light for Myrddraal, so there is no equivalent for the personality switch.

You also cannot be turned back to the Light once you've had the personality switch done on you because it is not a choice to be evil. You have been turned evil, so you can't just make the decision to stop being evil. Your personality is completely reversed, all of the darkness in your heart amplified to the level where you are evil.

The comparison between being a Darkfriend and turning back to the Light and being turned to the Shadow against your will and turning back to the Light does not compute.

@87/Joed1414:

On traveling....I think the reason reality is going bye bye is because of all the Male traveling going on. What is male traveling? They bore a hole in the pattern!!!! Rand set up the Black tower and there are literally hundreds of men boring holes into the pattern. This is what the whole "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" Thing is about. Why else would the Shadow send one of their dreadlords ,Taim, to help Rand form the Black Tower? So the Pattern would unravel.


There is absolutely no evidence to support this theory. There is nothing to suggest that the male method of Traveling has any negative effect on the Pattern other than a semantic argument. There is plenty of other explanations on what "let the Lord of Chaos rule" means. It is pretty much established to mean, "Let Rand (the Lord of Chaos) do whatever the hell he wants."

@84/two minds one heart:

See post #101.

@90/Randalator:

The whole concept reminds me of a funnel. For both saidin and saidar Travelling means bringing a destination to you, either through folding or making part of it the same as your current position.


Then how is "making part of it the same as your current position" like bringing it to you at all? You're using a weak semantic argument to support your premise.
toryx
118. KévinT
My .02 on the Rand/LTT debate:

What struck me for the first time during this re-read (my 5th or 6th) is the connection between the two problems ailing male channelers: insanity and the rotting sickness.

Both body and mind are merged (or taken over) by the dead person: the body merges i-e becomes a rotting corpse, the mind merges i-e becomes insane.

Why is the dead mind insane? For LTT, we know he was mad before dying. For the others, perhaps they have spent a few thousand years in the clutches of the DO (Lord of the Grave anyone?)
toryx
119. birgit
I dunno about the timing, but Lanfear showing up with the darkhounds is suspicious to me.

She was part of the Forsaken council and knows what the others are doing (might even have been her idea).

It's a very good thing that the Wise One's didn't start these lessons while Kellie was still with the party or who knows what Lanfear would have done to her?

Why does nobody wonder why Keille isn't around any more?
craig thrift
120. gagecreedlives
"Then she remarks that the girl Egwene’s dreams most often feature Morgase’s son and stepson, especially the former, Gawyn.”

So Lanfear spill the beans. Are they appearing one at a time, one after another or at the same time? C’mon inquiring minds want to know.

Poor Isendre. Getting punished by the maidens during the day and having Lanfears jealous, batshit crazy arse going psycho on you at night. No wonder she breaks.

“By “love scene” I don’t necessarily mean “sex scene”, I mean any scene in which they express love for each other. I just can’t picture it!”

Both being masters at the game of houses there is a very real possibility they may confess their love for each other without anyone noticing.

odigity @32

“Does anyone else find these brief mentions heartbreaking? She's taking care to ensure her death happens correctly.”

Or she could be setting things up the way it needs to be for that spoonful of hope.

bad_platypus @51

Im going with option 2. I think Asmo is telling some giant porky pies. He might not want to give everything away in a vain hope that somehow the great lord will take him back. I call bullshit on his ability not to teach Rand travelling. I also call bullshit on him being unable to show Rand how to invert weaves in chapter 3 and am also highly dubious on the fact that Asmo is still as shielded as he pretends.
Asmo’s analogy of a man grabbing at the tuft of grass could work just as well as an analogy of him trying to stay on the dark ones side. He know the great lord can reach beyond death so slitting his wrist isn’t going to help and he truly believes Rands cause is hopeless without the choedan kal.

The Not So Dark One@57

Well if Merelille teaches Talaan for a year has she fulfilled the bargain in her mind. If the bargain is to teach a windfinder about channelling for a year than maybe an apprentice windfinder will be enough for mental justification.

cor-darei4life@86

Yeah that’s my basic understanding of it too.
toryx
121. Planeswalker
@117 Roxinos

Yea, right... we all have opinions though... and we try not to assert them but impress others about them. That's what this post is for. :)

I agree to some of your ideas, but i guess there was only one who could have answered all our questions. sadly, he isn't here anymore... :(

Still, no one guessing which of the Supergirls got boinked first? hahaha
toryx
122. toryx
Wolfmage @105.

I would again refer you back to the personality ticks, the habits, the idioms of speech, the AoL values, and the detailed knowledge of a lifetime's worth of channelling which is exhibited by the voice throughout the books.

If we accept this theory, then we essentially must believe a psychosis-induced personality is so miraculously exact in its mimicry of a real, reactive perspective that it is indistinguishable from a real voice.


I'd agree with you if it were miraculous. But it's not. Rand IS the Dragon Reborn. All that information, the knowledge, the experience of Lews Therin is contained within that soul. He's not pulling it out of nowhere. Rand's accessing it from within himself. He has the information available to him to have Lews Therin's voice and personal tics.

Granted, we don't know what keeps the memories back in the ordinary situation. We don't know why other rebirths keep the memories and experiences separate until death.

I'd posit (without any evidence one way or another to support me) that there is something in the nature of the physical rebirth that walls all that information and experience off. It's locked up behind steel walls (metaphorically) speaking that ordinarily don't come down until death.

My suggestion is that the effect of the Taint was able to weaken those steel walls every bit as effectively as the Dark One has somehow managed to weaken the Seals.

We can already assume that the barrier between one life and the next isn't all that strong anyway. Before Mat ever got the dagger he was calling on memories that weren't even his, but merely present in the blood. In our own world/ time/ universe or whatever, people claim to have memories of past lives and are influenced by those previous experiences.

So the taint on saidin has weakened the wall, barrier, what have you that separate the memories and experiences of Lews Therin from Rand's own. With that barrier weakened everything that Lews Therin was is at Rand's mental figertips. All he has to do is draw on them, and being unable to accept that they are actually his knowledge and experience from a past life, he has created a voice and presence to give them to him. It's his way of dealing with it, poor though it is.

In that sense it's not miraculous at all that Rand is using LT's voice, expressions and body language. He's simply drawing on the pool of information that's available to him by virtue of being a rebirth.

Which, it appears, someone else seems to have reasoned out as shown in the FAQ. So maybe I should just shut up and refer there.
craig thrift
123. gagecreedlives
Planeswalker

Im gonna go with Aviendha being the first of the super girls to lose it.

Actually brings to mind a saying I once heard. Virginity is like a balloon. One prick and its gone.
Noton Yourlife
124. Roxinos
Egwene: Still hasn't in reality. Though, she's probably done it plenty in Gawyn's dreams.

Elayne: Winter's Heart Chapter 12.

Nynaeve: Presumably, after she and Lan get married. A Crown of Swords Chapter 31.

Aviendha: The Fires of Heaven Chapter 31.

Min: A Crown of Swords Chapter 19.

So, Aviendha lost it first.

And haha, two sex scenes in one book.
Richard Fife
125. R.Fife
@124 Does Pillow-friending count? *snerk*
Noton Yourlife
126. Roxinos
I don't believe any of them had pillow friends.

:-p
Richard Fife
127. R.Fife
Iunno. It's kinda implied that Elayne and Egwene were close, many long nights of crying together after trips to the MoN study, and long nights of talking to eachother through the hole in the wall.

As Jayne says: I'll be in my bunk.
toryx
128. toryx
I always got the impression that Min had been with others before Rand. She seemed to be the most experienced of the bunch.

Nynaeve seemed to jump Lan as soon as they'd finished their vows. And as I recall, she didn't let him leave their cabin for quite a while after.
toryx
129. alreadymadwithTravellingqueries
Roxinos @117
It's pretty much established that Skimming does not work on the same rules of familiarity as Travelling. Only Travelling works by anchoring yourself to your point of origination. Skimming works differently and does not require knowing the starting point well. I don't get your question.

Also as for the armies leapfrogging with Gateways, IIRC knowing the starting point intimately is not as important if you're Travelling short distances. I assume they mean line of sight for this, no specific limit is ever mentioned for this exception.
Joseph Daly
130. Joed1414
There is subtle evidence all over this series that traveling wasn't always the prefered method of moving around. Sho-wings in the age of legends, the Ways, if balefire can directly affect the pattern why not traveling? I look at skimming more like riding the pattern rather than poking holes in the pattern. I think those in the age of legends knew this could happen and the forsaken are keeping very quite about it because they know and don't care that the pattern can rip. The Dark one has said he's trying to rip the pattern. I'm sure I may not have put as much time as some of you into these theories. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.
Kurt Lorey
131. Shimrod
The Ways post date the Breaking, and were meant for the Ogier. Sho-wings? Um, most people can't channel. Gotta get around somehow.

Pet theories can't always work out. Most of mine are perfect examples of that.
Sara H
132. LadyBelaine
toryx@128

I always got the impression that Min had been with others before Rand. She seemed to be the most experienced of the bunch.

Min says somewhere that Rand was her first, despite that being, I think, somewhat out of character for her. Being a little more mature than the other girls, living in a sizable town, having a job....
Blake Engholm
133. UncrownedKing
Happy almost new post/Friday!

OK let UCK comment on a few things...
@66 Gastzilla + 98 and 71: Love Fiest! He's the author I went to after I started RJ when I was younger. Still reading all his work today. Just finished his latest book. What a world he's created. Intense. Love the work he did with Janny Wurts (Empire series). It was sooo good.

@73 Gambit: WRONG! Dammy couldn't stand being that close to one of the three and not kill him. I would love to know who Dammy really is though. Someone enlighten me please!

@67 Joed1414: I love the idea of LTT's soul being in the mountain waiting for a child to attach to. Cool as hell.

@133 haha Quote much? ...:)

@117 You sir/ma'am have won the award for longest post...ever!! ...*mischevioussmirk* >:]

"SEXY TIME, ITS NICE":
Anyone want to see a scene that shows what exactly "Ye who follows in public, Leads in private" means? I don't mean a incredibly descriptive scene, but a scene none the less. I have always been interested in this concept. Only thing about the Sea Folk I am not annoyed with. Well, that and the boat scenes when land isn't in sight.....:)

QUESTION: While going through this reread I have began getting this feeling, and I want to know if anyone else is getting this feeling. I am beginning to sense a Lanfear=Darth Vadar in SW ep.6 and is going to pull a "I now realize the evil of my ways and to save a person I love I will destroy my master." Not that I believe that can be done but....I like the scene playing in my head.
James Jones
134. jamesedjones
130 Joed1414

No worries. It's a great discussion, but I think it would be better if it were directed toward using the True Power to Travel. There's a scene after Dumai's Wells where Moridin is wrapped in fancloth watching Sammael and the Shaido Wise Ones. He uses the True Power to "tear a hole in the pattern" in order to Travel. There's something there about the universe or pattern screaming. IMHO that would be where this subject should focus on.

As for other methods of travel, RJ said that while there were many more channelers in the AOL, they were and always will be a very small ratio of the population. Kind of like how high level govt officials in the US can travel using military transport, but the rest of the population has to hop in their car or go through security at your local airport.
toryx
135. Garstzilla
Heres one to comment on do you notice that Perrin and Matt both have problems that are specific to them but are just a step behind all the problems that Rand faces. Perrin's problem of whether or not the wolf's nature is going to take him over one uped by Rand's worry about going mad because of or with the one power. Matt's filled up memories of all these other men again one uped by Rand's wondering if he is going to be taken over by Therin. Im sure it was presented this way for a reason so that both of their situations would be the clues to explain better what is happening to Rand. So if Matt can have holes in his memeory filled up by other guys why cant Rand have the complete memories/personality of Therin in his head. There is more to this line of thought but I Have to get back to work.
toryx
136. alreadymadwithlanfearsmadness
UncrownedKing @163
I don't think Lanfear is gonna go the Darth Vader route. For one thing, Vader never really got over the I want to recruit him to my side phase. Lanfear as Cyndane is over it now and just wants Rand dead for having 3 women and leaving her out.

Besides, how is Rand gonna fit her into his schedule with three wives to take care of?
Blake Engholm
137. UncrownedKing
@136 AlreadyMadWhenIKilledUCK'sBuzz
*Pouting* I didn't say she'd be one of his girls. I was implying the Go back to Light (Go LIGHT!) side of the force. She would then take her own life for all the wrong she had done in a cool Samurai way! Yeah
Kurt Lorey
138. Shimrod
@134 jamesedjones. Great point about Moridin and his method of Traveling.
toryx
139. alreadymadwcozlanfearsnuts
UncrownedKing @137
Lanfear doesn't really care much about Dark or Light. Much of her motivation thus far is to have LTT or the next best thing to him, namely one shepherd boy named Rand, all to herself forever. Now since that is obviously not working out. She's now moved past that and on to the If I can't have him, no one will mentality.
toryx
141. toryx
alreadymad @ 139

I agree with you about Lanfear not really caring much about the Dark or the Light. But I think that the one thing that does matter to her is that she gets what she wants. Ultimately, she wants to be the big cheese, most powerful person in the universe. Lews Therin was always, I think, just a stepping stone along the way despite her constant pleas that she loved him.

I'd have bet anything that if she had succeeded in overthrowing the Dark One and the Creator, she would have tossed Lews Therin aside as soon as she had everything she wanted. The only draw for her about LT was that he was another thing she couldn't have.

On an altogether separate topic, I'm up to Chapter 50 in FoH and light, do I hate the Aes Sedai in Salidar almost as much as Elaida. They're just as stubborn, proud, and overbearing as she is. Grrr!
Jay Dauro
142. J.Dauro
Joed1414 @ 130

Since the AS have banned Balefire, I would think that if Traveling caused similar problems, they would have banned it.

They no longer teach Balefire, but every AS knows why. None of the AS think badly of Traveling, so I doubt it has the problem.
Michael Catapano
143. hoping
Just having a stray thought about the Pattern. Here's the definition from the glossary.

The Wheel of Time weaves the threads of human lives into the Pattern of an Age, often called simply the Pattern, which forms the substance of reality for that Age.


Does the Pattern only include human lives as implied above or are shadowspawn 'lives' included also? Is anything else included?

The reason I ask is that the darkhounds were burned out of the Pattern and their actions negated by Rand's balefire. So, the Pattern must include more than human lives. Or do darkhounds have a human component, such as wolfbrothers?
Noton Yourlife
144. Roxinos
@129/alreadymad:

Well, it was precisely that. Traveling and Skimming may work differently, but they still work off of the same principle of "knowing" an area. The difference is what area you know, your starting or your ending point. I was asking how you reconcile your understanding of Traveling with your understanding of Skimming. And it seems to be just, "Well, Skimming is different. Whatever."

Also as for the armies leapfrogging with Gateways, IIRC knowing the starting point intimately is not as important if you're Travelling short distances.


Which is pretty much what I said. Kinda sorta. What you say is true. But so is what I said. So...yeah. Awesome.

@130/Joed1414:

There is subtle evidence all over this series that traveling wasn't always the prefered method of moving around. Sho-wings in the age of legends, the Ways, if balefire can directly affect the pattern why not traveling?


Just going to repeat what Shimrod said.

Because not everyone can channel.

Sho-wings and Sho-cars and the like were for the average person. Only a very small percent of the population can channel. For everyone else, how would you propose they travel long distances quickly?

As for the Ways? They were made during the Breaking, and were not commonly used by anyone except the Ogier. They were a gift to the Ogier, a people who cannot channel, so they could not Travel.

So your suggestion is nonsense and it holds no weight.

@141/toryx:

Lews Therin was always, I think, just a stepping stone along the way despite her constant pleas that she loved him.


Lews Therin was also one of only two people who was stronger than Lanfear in the Power.

Regardless, the scene in Chapter 6 that Leigh just went over where Rand screams about Mierin always being power-hungry overrides that "stepping stone" idea quite neatly.

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. “Graendal said...” she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. “Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!”
Joseph Daly
145. Joed1414
People in the Age of Legends didn't know everything. This is proven with the Forsaken. Perhaps the taint has something to do with it. Tainted Saidin boring holes in the pattern perhaps the holes don't close. How would the DO tear the pattern? He needs Rand and the ashaman to do it for him by boring holes into it.
Jason Deshaies
146. darxbane
Wow. Way too many posts to read. One more point about Traveling ans Skimming, however. It is true, you have to know your current location better than your destination, but you still need to have some idea of the destination, and to accurately place the gateway, you have to know the destination pretty well also. Don't confuse knowing one better than the other with only needing to know one or the other.

Asmodean skimmed because he was not familiar enough with Alcair Dal to Travel to Rhuidean.

That essay a bunch of posts up was awesome, by the way.

I also had an epiphany while reading LoC last night, but I think I'll save the details till we get there. In the meantime, read the section where Rand takes the Ogier to Shadar Logoth to find the waygate, and what happens to him physically when he channels there, and how similar it is to him seizing Saidin in later books.

Edit: Joed@145,
The DO is the anti-creator; his touch equals destruction. Taveling bores a hole through the pattern. It is the "True Power" that Moridin uses that actually tears a hole in the pattern, and there is a difference. Besides, if tainted Traveling gateways were damaging the pattern, the cleansing of Saidin would have stopped it from getting worse.
Richard Fife
147. R.Fife
I've always thought of male travelling more putting a pin in a shirt and not screwing up. You aren't actually damaging the thread at all, just pushing it aside a bit. When the pin is taken out, the thread goes back to normal and no hole can be seen.
Noton Yourlife
148. Roxinos
@145/Joed1414:

People in the Age of Legends didn't know everything. This is proven with the Forsaken. Perhaps the taint has something to do with it. Tainted Saidin boring holes in the pattern perhaps the holes don't close. How would the DO tear the pattern? He needs Rand and the ashaman to do it for him by boring hole into it.


You're right, they didn't know everything. But what weaves they did know, they understood quite well. The One Power was a science in the Age of Legends. It was studied quite extensively. They knew how things worked. They may not have always known why things worked the way they worked, but they always knew how things worked. If Traveling posed a threat to the Pattern, they would not have used it.

Reality was a thing which was actively studied in the Age of Legends.

Regardless, you're basing your entire conclusion on a weak semantic argument.

I say "weak" because it's based on a metaphor, not an actual description of the effect Traveling has on the Pattern. Rand and the males describe Traveling as "bending the Pattern and forcing their way through," but that does not actually mean they're literally bending the Pattern and forcing their way between two points.

As for your addition of the taint to your argument? That's just reaching for straws. You can't even form a reasonable argument for why the taint would effect anything (considering weaves made with saidin are not effected by the taint in the slightest, the body serves as a filter and absorbs all of the taint), you just leave it to our imagination by posing the question.

I'm sorry, but again, your argument has no ground to stand on.

@133/UncrownedKing:

You sir/ma'am have won the award for longest post...ever!! ...*mischevioussmirk* >:]


Thank you very much. But my post isn't the longest. The one with the essay is (post #113).
sandi vogel
149. sinfulcashew
alreadymadw coz lan fears nuts

Can't resist! When I got to your latest alias, this is the first thing I saw. Had to go over it to ferret out the real? meaning!

All this talk of craziness.....
I think Rand is pretty much fine.
The other personality in his head is crazy to a point.
All this debating.....
Makes me crazy!

Oh, and in reading KOD again I found an interesting mention of a scene that I think I asked about waaaay back in some of the first posts. I would like to refer to it again, but as we are a long way from it, perhaps I'd better wait?
Kurt Lorey
150. Shimrod
@146 darxbane.

Very interesting observation regarding Shadar Logoth and Rand.

@147 R.Fifearoller.

Me, too. A pin.
Richard Fife
151. R.Fife
Roxinos: while I don't disagree with the point you are making, try be a hair more civil, eh? I think it is far more constructive to calmly debunk than to belittle, and the little one-line stingers your putting in are, well, not adding to your point. Just saying, more flies with sugar than vinegar, and the first person to cite that mythbusters episode can share a sweat tent with Elaida.
Noton Yourlife
152. Roxinos
@151/R.Fife:

More civil?

So basically I'm not allowed to say, "You're wrong." I'm also not allowed to make any disparaging remarks on the strength of an argument.

I've been more civil on here than anywhere else on the Internet. A great way to break my hold on civility is to tell me to be more civil. When I start insulting someone, then you can step up and I'll back down. Until then, I'm sorry, but I'm being perfectly civil.

Also:

I've always thought of male travelling more putting a pin in a shirt and not screwing up. You aren't actually damaging the thread at all, just pushing it aside a bit. When the pin is taken out, the thread goes back to normal and no hole can be seen.


This is a perfect analogy.
Deborah Jones
153. NanaD
In regards to the voice being real or not:

Unless Robert Jordan,(aka: God, the Creator) stated clearly in the text, or his blog ,or in an interview how this worked, your guess is as good as mine, or mine is as good as yours. We have had some very interesting theories but only Jordan knew where his head was when he wrote these books.

I think the voice was real. A result of the reborn soul,being the dragon reborn and his ta'verness.

Rand thought that hearing the voice was an indication that he was going mad. There was no one around to tell him that this was perfectly natural. All male channelers before him were told they would go mad if they lived long enough. So they were gentled to protect them and society.
He had no teachers, no role models, so the Pattertn provided one for him, LTT's memories of how this all worked. Had Rand been encouraged to listen to his inner voice, and learn from it,much of his anger and dismay could have been avoided.

My ideas, for what they are worth. This and $6.50(?) will get you a small plain coffee from Starbucks
toryx
154. alreadymadwithbendingreality
Roxinos @144
I think the main issue is the one actually opening the Gateway. In Travelling, he anchors himself to his current location and pulls his destination toward him. But in Skimming since the channeler knows the destination better, he is essentially pulling himself toward it. Reality (the Pattern) still bends but not as drastically as if he had Travelled, not all the way. He can't bend the Pattern all the way because he can't anchor himself as well as if he had Travelled.

darxbane @146
Actually, in Travelling you don't need to know the destination so much as where it is in relation to yourself and your starting point. This is proven in CoT (or was it WH) when Jur accurately opens a Gateway to the vicinity of Malden by going only on descriptions of how to get there and how far away it was. He had never been to Malden up until then.
Richard Fife
155. R.Fife
Telling people they are objectively wrong I have no problem with, and I never said I was "allowing" or "disallowing" anything. I'm a shmuck like any other, I was just asking.

What tweaked my nose was the somewhat aggressive tone and talking down to people, pointing out "nonsense" and "fallicy". I think all of us are smart enough to take contrary, offered evidence and realize that it counters our own ideas or offered theories. And, trust me, I have heard very respectable people have "loonier" theories than "tainted traveling is harming the pattern."

Cause, I could kind of see that, or in general the use of tainted saidin was leaving a residue on the pattern. Could explain why the DO won't be able to just simply undo what the Bowl of the Winds did. He had to use alot of stored up "grease" on the pattern to change things because of his limited influence, and now the source of the grease is gone.
Brian Kaul
156. bkaul
Roxinos@152:

Saying "you're incorrect" is one thing. Saying that a person's comments are "nonsense" and that he "has no ground to stand on" would be taken by many as more insulting than if you simply pointed out the evidence against his arguments. I can see how you meant them to refer to the argument rather than the arguer, but with that sort of dismissive phrasing, they're also pointed enough to be easily misinterpreted such that a person who disagrees could feel attacked, even if that wasn't your intent. Not being dismissive can go a long way towards not inadvertently insulting people. :)
Brian Kaul
157. bkaul
FWIW, I agree with Roxinos on the tainted traveling theory being unlikely, but "loony" speculative theories are pretty standard around here. Speculating is half the fun. ;)
Hugh Arai
158. HArai
Roxinos@148:
You're right, they didn't know everything. But what weaves they did know, they understood quite well. The One Power was a science in the Age of Legends. It was studied quite extensively. They knew how things worked. They may not have always known why things worked the way they worked, but they always knew how things worked.


Text evidence? If you're equating treating the OP as a science with always knowing how it worked, you have a remarkably divergent concept of science than I do.


So basically I'm not allowed to say, "You're wrong." I'm also not allowed to make any disparaging remarks on the strength of an argument.

I've been more civil on here than anywhere else on the Internet. A great way to break my hold on civility is to tell me to be more civil. When I start insulting someone, then you can step up and I'll back down. Until then, I'm sorry, but I'm being perfectly civil.


Being less civil elsewhere does not equate to being civil here. Also by your own words you are making disparaging remarks:

disparage:
1.to speak of or treat slightingly; depreciate; belittle: Do not disparage good manners.
2.to bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of: Your behavior will disparage the whole family.
toryx
159. toryx
Roxinos @ 144

I know that Lanfear has insisted that she loves Lews Therin time and time again; I was alluding to that same quote when I said I suspect she views LT as a stepping stone despite her insistence that she loves him.

I just don't believe her. As a wise man once said, everybody lies.

She might think she loves him, but I believe she loves the power he wields and the potential of LT helping her become more powerful than anything.

That he discarded her for another (in her viewpoint) makes her crave him even more but that's not love. That's why I think that if Lanfear did win Lews Therin's heart, she'd toss him aside when she got what she wanted out of him. Like Lews Therin/ Rand has said, she loves power.
Richard Fife
160. R.Fife
@159: I agree. Additionally, love is a two-way street. If she actually loved the man and not the idea of the man, she would not be batshit crazy and possessive. I doubt Lanfear is actually capible of "love".
toryx
161. Lsana
@148 Roxinos,

While the AOL folk knew a lot about the One Power, they most assuredly did not know everything:

1. They didn't know it was possible to heal someone who'd been stilled.

2. They didn't know it was possible to force channelers to link against their will.

3. They didn't have any idea what Mierin and Beidomon were about to let loose when Mierin found her "new source" for the power.

Do I think it's likely that male Traveling is damaging the pattern? Not in the least. Do I think it's "nonsense" that the same people who authorized #3 might be ignorant that something they were doing was highly damaging to reality? I think the question answers itself.

@153 NanaD,

If the pattern were going to provide Rand with a teacher, I would have thought that it would provide Rand with a teacher back in Dragon Reborn when he had barely any control over saidin and it was starting to look like a real possibility that he might be one of the 3-in-4 wilders who kills himself. Why wait until he already can control saidin and has reached the point where he can teach himself before sending LTT to him?
Deborah Jones
162. NanaD
@161 Lsana

LTT was always there. Rand did things he had no idea how or why he did them. The increase in using the Power woke him(LTT) to be more aware of Rand.(?)
Hugh Arai
163. HArai
Lsana@161: Good examples. Another would be that both sides in the War of the Shadow used balefire until they realized what they were doing.
Noton Yourlife
164. Roxinos
@158/HArai:

Text evidence?


The Collam Daan was a university in the Age of Legends.

Semirhage studied Healing.
Lanfear was studying the Bore when it was discovered (she was studying it as a replacement power for the One Power).
Aginor studied genetics (and he used the One Power in his studies).

If you're equating treating the OP as a science with always knowing how it worked, you have a remarkably divergent concept of science than I do.


In terms of something immediately testable and simple, yes. The One Power is a remarkably scientific instrument. So much so that it does not compare to anything in reality. But the principles of science are the same.

I am not equating the two. I am making a logical deduction based on the information we do have. The One Power was treated as a science and studied. The One Power was regarded as a tool to be used to help people. Taking those two, it is not that far to saying that the Aes Sedai would have studied extensively any new weaves discovered. As the weave for Traveling was used quite extensively, it is fair to say that the weave was studied quite extensively. In fact, it's safe to say that both Skimming and Traveling were both studied quite extensively and that the discovery and subsequent research of one probably led to the discovery and subsequent research of the other (the order doesn't matter).

Being less civil elsewhere does not equate to being civil here.


Never said it did. I was using my experience elsewhere on the Internet as an indication that I can determine when I'm being civil and when I'm not. If I can decide that I'm distinctly uncivil elsewhere, then the same could apply to this instance if indeed in this instance I was being uncivil.

I was not making disparaging remarks about Joed1414. I was making disparaging remarks about his logic. If logic is fault, you say so. Or else you are not helping anyone at all.

@157/bkaul:

Speculating is half the fun.


Agreed. I've not said anything in response to half of the people in relation to their theories about Lews Therin. I guarantee you I could. I do not, because speculation is fun. I do not discourage it. What I discourage is mindless speculation. You may as well speculate on the nature of Bela's sex life as speculate on the nature of Traveling when your speculation has no grounding.

@156:

Saying that a person's comments are "nonsense" and that he "has no ground to stand on" would be taken by many as more insulting than if you simply pointed out the evidence against his arguments.


How a person takes a remark and how the remark is presented are two different things. Joed1414 may very well be insulted. That does not mean I was being uncivil. Many people can be insulted by fairly innocuous things. I don't feel a need to be politically correct about everything, and if you want me to be, then I think you can just move along. (That last sentence is not directed just to you, bkaul. It's directed to everyone I'm having this little discussion with.)

@155/R.Fife:

And, trust me, I have heard very respectable people have "loonier" theories than "tainted traveling is harming the pattern."


Yep. And I've made no comment on the character of Joed1414. I've merely made comments on his theory. And his theory is, quite plainly, without grounding and nonsense. For all of the reasons I described in my posts directed to him.

And I would very much prefer if this topic were dropped. Commenting on any perceived rudeness on my part is completely unproductive. Be assured that I will not insult anyone, and my posts are merely challenges for Joed1414 to actually support his theory with evidence rather than bald assertions and questions which challenge us to use our imagination ("If you don't talk, I'm going to get myself a string, two pairs of bunny slippers, and a couple of possums") rather than actually provide an explanation.

@154/alreadymad:

Ah. Alright, that clears that up. Interesting idea. Certainly does make a certain amount of sense, though, there isn't really any explicit support for it.

@159/toryx:

She might think she loves him, but I believe she loves the power he wields and the potential of LT helping her become more powerful than anything.


Yet, she helps Rand who is quite powerless before he receives her help. Yet, she goes completely insane and attempts to kill Rand when she discovers another woman has slept with him.

It's one thing to say everyone lies. It's another thing to say that someone is lying 1) for no reason, 2) in private, 3) to herself, and 4) with no benefit.

You have an argument for why she loved Lews Therin in the Age of Legends, yes. That makes sense. It does not, however, match up with her behavior towards Rand in the Third Age. In this case, I call on the power of Occam's razor. She could either be doing all of the above mentioned things and be crazy to boot, or she could just be in love with Rand and crazy.

I know that Lanfear has insisted that she loves Lews Therin time and time again; I was alluding to that same quote when I said I suspect she views LT as a stepping stone despite her insistence that she loves him.


Forgive, my confusion lay in your use of the word "despite."

I recommend you attempt to phrase it in a way that doesn't use that word. Then again, that's for my own benefit.

It doesn't matter as, if I'm correct in my interpretation of what you mean to say, the quote I provided still overrides your idea on Lanfear quite neatly. It is clear she truly does love Lews Therin. To say that she may be lying to herself is just psychoanalyzing a character with no basis besides a separate character trait. You have no evidence on the part of Lanfear's thoughts or actions to indicate that she is lying to herself about what aspect of Lews Therin she loves.

@160/R.Fife:

If she actually loved the man and not the idea of the man, she would not be batshit crazy and possessive.


Unfortunately, that's a preconception on the nature of love. You're welcome to it, but there's no evidence to suggest that Lanfear does not truly love Lews Therin. Some people are needlessly clingy and batshit insane. Believe me, I live amongst Hispanics. They're all insane when it comes to relationships.

@161/Lsana:

While the AOL folk knew a lot about the One Power, they most assuredly did not know everything:


I know. I said the same thing.

But what I was indicating was not that they had ultimate knowledge over the One Power and all of its capabilities. But rather, that the weaves they did know about were extensively studied.

1. They didn't know it was possible to heal someone who'd been stilled.


You're right. They didn't know the weave. But I guarantee you that if they did know the weave, they'd know exactly how it worked (just as the Aes Sedai in Randland knew exactly how it worked the second Nynaeve Healed Siuan).

2. They didn't know it was possible to force channelers to link against their will.


Yep, because they had no weave for bonding. But again, I guarantee you that if they did have a weave for bonding, they would know exactly how it works.

3. They didn't have any idea what Mierin and Beidomon were about to let loose when Mierin found her "new source" for the power.


This one is a bit unfair for a few reasons.

1. No one except Mierin and Beidomon was actually studying the prison. So no one outside of them and the other people involved in their research could have known. It wasn't something like Traveling which is common.

2. It is unrelated to the One Power. To compare the methods for studying the prison to the methods for studying the One Power isn't good. One is through experimentation the results of which is not immediately discernible, and the other has immediately discernible results.

3. It is arguable that Mierin did know what was inside the prison when she drilled the Bore. Beidomon certainly didn't, though.

Do I think it's "nonsense" that the same people who authorized #3 might be ignorant that something they were doing was highly damaging to reality? I think the question answers itself.


Again, it is an improper comparison. The two are not analogous with one another. You need to compare weaves because a weave is intimately involved with the person studying it whereas something like the prison is not.

A more appropriate comparison would be balefire and even that is unfair. It is unfair because balefire was discovered during the War of Power as a weapon of war. It was not extensively studied just as machine guns, napalm, and Agent Orange were not extensively studied in our world before they were used in war.

And yet, after they began using it, they discovered the full weight of its abilities simply by its use. The same can be said of Traveling which was not discovered in time of war and for use in war. It was discovered in a time of discovery, invention, and science. The time spent analyzing the weave for Traveling is analogous to the time spent using the weave for balefire and in an equivalent time frame, it is logical to assume that the people of the Age of Legends would easily be able to discern any negative effects of the weave for Traveling.

And again, not sure why I'm telling you this, the main problem with Joed1414's post is not simply my counter-evidence. Rather, it is precisely his lack of evidence and lack of a fully reasoned argument. It is based almost purely on a weak semantic argument. The argument is nonsense. Moreover, actually based on the counter-evidence I provided, we can see distinctly that the theory itself is nonsense.

Is it possible? Sure. Just as it's possible that Bela is the Creator. Is it likely? No. Is it nonsense? Of course.

And it's great that I also addressed HArai in my post directed at you, Lsana.
Kurt Lorey
165. Shimrod
OMG!!

Not the bunny slippers!

I'll talk!

I'll talk!

Just no bunny slippers!

Please?

What would be next? Mice and figs?
K F
166. TAmyrlinring1
Roxinos @ 152

Perhaps you might just take a moment to realize that saying "I think you're wrong because . . . " or "I disagree because . . .". Yes, we understand you feel passionately about what you're saying, so do many here, and here and there everyone ruffles a few feathers, but RFife @151 was very politely pointing out to you that you were repeatedly (unintentionally I'm sure) coming off as a bit insensitive. A nice way to respond to that is to say, oh, hey sorry, didn't mean anything personally there. There's no need to one up any one here, or establish the absolute validity of your own theories--just make the point and discuss. Some of the theories may be a little off the wall, and some you may think completely nuts, but that doesn't mean that they aren't worth discussing, civilly.
Michael Catapano
167. hoping
Hoping that this marks the end of this unpleasantness-or I will touch you armed and take you all gaishan
Blake Engholm
168. UncrownedKing
@164 Roxinos
Remember when you claimed that you didn't have the longest post ever.......ZOMG!! You crushed it here. Quite opinionated are we? lol I am sorry but theres no chance in Hell I am going to read it :)

Why are we talking about this? we arn't philosiphizers are we? I didn't think Socrates or Homer were RJ fans. Come on Friday.
Noton Yourlife
169. Roxinos
Perhaps you might just take a moment to realize that saying "I think you're wrong because . . . " or "I disagree because . . .".


Political correctedness. It is not rude to simply phrase it "you are wrong" rather than "I think you're wrong." He is wrong because of the evidence I provided not because I think he's wrong. So to say, "I think you're wrong because..." would be just a bit dishonest. I do not think he's wrong. I know he's wrong.

Arrogance, sure. I'll gladly own up to arrogance. I will not, however, own up to being rude.

...but RFife @151 was very politely pointing out to you that you were repeatedly (unintentionally I'm sure) coming off as a bit insensitive.


He said I should be more civil. If he wanted me to be more sensitive he should have said so. I'm arguing against his assertion that I was somehow rude. Arrogant, yes. Rude, no.

Some of the theories may be a little off the wall, and some you may think completely nuts, but that doesn't mean that they aren't worth discussing, civilly.


And I discussed and subsequently dismissed them based on my discussion quite civilly.

@168/UncrownedKing:

Remember when you claimed that you didn't have the longest post ever.......ZOMG!! You crushed it here. Quite opinionated are we? lol I am sorry but theres no chance in Hell I am going to read it :)


Nope, it's still not the longest. :D

And if you don't read it, then you no longer have a right to respond to my arguments relating to this topic. Sorry. That's just the way the cookie crumbles, my friend.

@165/Shimrod:

Yesss....*cackles madly*
Blake Engholm
170. UncrownedKing
@169 RoxyFoxySoxy
First: I have yet to respond to anyones comments on the subjects of manors, and civility. I don't care.

Second: You can't count #113 because it was all an essay written by someone else that pertained to the subject we all were discussing. It was all a quote (almost).

You at 164 and at 117 both contain your own thoughts as the majority of the content. So you win. Just except it.

Third: These comments are boring the hell out of me.
Noton Yourlife
171. Roxinos
@170/UncrownedKing:

First: I have yet to respond to anyones comments on the subjects of manors, and civility. I don't care.


Well, I was talking about the Traveling bit, actually. I don't care about the civility thing at all. *laughs*

Second: You can't count #113 because it was all an essay written by someone else that pertained to the subject we all were discussing. It was all a quote (almost).


Well, if you're not counting that, then yes. I'm awesomely long-winded.

Third: These comments are boring the hell out of me.


Then stop commenting. :-p Friday couldn't come any quicker if it was a 13 year old boy. *dirty grin*
toryx
172. alreadymadwithwildleapsoffancy
Well I wouldn't exactly go so far as to say some arguments are nonsense. More like wishful thinking(ducks).
Let's face it. Some people tend toward rational, well thought out arguments. Some tend toward wild leaps of fancy. It's like Saidin and Saidar. People are just wired differently.
As for answers to our questions, I'm afraid it's too late to ask the Creator. The Creator set the Wheel of Time spinning and has since left us to our own devices. Our only hope now lies in the Chosen One, the Champion of the Light.
Alice Arneson
173. Wetlandernw
Wow! Some incredibly verbose posts here. Leigh, I do believe there are others who have even less friendship with brevity than you! ;)

Roxinos@117: It is pretty much established to mean, "Let Rand (the Lord of Chaos) do whatever the hell he wants."

Established where? and by whom? Personally I don't buy it, and as someone said up there a bit, barring straight talk from RJ or his notes, you can't prove that's what it means. You can only say that you and many others are convinced of it.

lots@lots: Speaking of which, I find all the debate about Traveling and the LTT/Rand soul-and-personality debate, while rather boring in itself, hilarious in concept. You guys are getting all wound up making these detailed arguments, and there's a pretty good chance that RJ himself had a much more simple explanation for each one. Or perhaps no explanation whatsoever, just a "here's what it looks like and we'll never know exactly how it works." It is, after all, a work of... well... fiction... and it works however the author decides it works. It's not like you can go do scientific experiments to see if it works this way or that...

RFife @151: Thanks for saying it. And well said. (Am grateful I don't have to figure out how to say it!)

Makes me think of something I was noticing a week or so ago... Back in the early days there was a bit of flaming going on, but somewhere along the line that mostly disappeared. Not sure if people got uncomfortable and left, or if most everyone decided to be civil and have fun and just maybe quit taking themselves so seriously, or what. (We even managed civility, if a little strained sometimes, in some political and moral debates recently. Wow!)In any case, it's generally a lot more fun now. So here's to you folks that make this a fun place to be! CHEERS!
K F
174. TAmyrlinring1
Roxinos@164

Look, I was trying to kindly offer advice on how to avoid needlessly long responses directed to your offensive behavior thereby interrupting the enjoyment of the discussion. And, rude is a definition set by the group you are in, not by you yourself. If you're not going to step up to the group plate, then, well, whether you get it or not, that is in fact your problem.

And, Ian, this is a fictional work (sacreligious statement, I know). RJ was good, so logic does indeed have a place, but sometimes, those wild leaps of fancy do turn out to be "right" because "right" is what the author made of the story, not what we crazy kids here on the boards intuit the answer should have been, logically.
Joseph Daly
175. Joed1414
Wow....didn't mean to start WWIII in here. One of the fellow posters...I'm not going to go back and see which one...gave me an idea. I had forgot about Moridin traveling with the True Power ripped a hole in the pattern and reality screamed. i think that the counter stroke when he was sealed in the bore was made with the true power. I believe this taint could have been an injection of the True power into Saidin. Now if the true power tears holes in the pattern and the true power is part of saidin when it was tainted then my theory holds water. BTW no offense taken.
James Jones
176. jamesedjones
164 Roxinos

OMG Your comments on Bela's love life, bunny slippers, and the broad, sweeping (maybe a bit racist) joke about minorities in FL had me crying I was laughing so hard. I don't agree with any of it (the stuff that falls outside of your logic), but I have my suspicions that you don't either. You strike me as the type to find a great deal of entertainment in tweaking other peoples noses.

Also, UncrownedKing is 100% on this one. Your own material counts way more than any quote. LOL
James Jones
177. jamesedjones
173 Wetlander

The uncivility started when one of the posters suggested that Leigh moderate her language. Naturally, everyone rallied to her defense. It was a lot of fun, but we haven't seen anotherfan since then.
James Jones
178. jamesedjones
172. alreadymadwithwildleapsoffancy

Woah, did you just refer to Sanderson as the Chosen One? I've only been reading his blog and his tweets, but I'm sure he'd have a blast with that. Maybe even going so far as to destroy a sheet making a cape...
K F
179. TAmyrlinring1
WetlandernW@173

I think we were working on the same thought at the same time. This is fiction everyone. Good fiction, granted, and it is fun to try to understand what RJ meant, where he was going with it, and what could happen next, but no one can possibly be 100% sure of anything here because you are not RJ!

I enjoy the series and the discussions, especially when we all try to be civil and give each other little pats on the back even when we have given some pretty hard citation evidence against someone's theory. It is way too cool to read a post and go, "hey, I never thought of that!" even though you've read the series through about 10 times.

And, yes, even though in my work I have to subscribe to logic (like it or not), I get to read RJ's books and hope against hope that Rand lives on--regardless of any evidence to the contrary ;-)
Sam Mickel
180. Samadai
Light I wish it was anyone but Cenns day to lead the village council
sandi vogel
182. sinfulcashew
Roxy:
Hope you don't mind the nickname?

Just wanted to ask if you have given us your a/s/l?
I would like to know whereof you grew up, your background, how you became so strong.

You did say you were banned from another site.
I don't think we would like to see that happen again?
Just my own opinion.

We would like to get to know more about a person before making such a drastic decision!

I know I am probably talking out my a&&, but I am sure the others will let me know!
toryx
183. Lsana
Because I'm bored and this beats doing actual work...

@164 Roxinos,

I don't think I buy the argument that if the AOL folk saw Nynaeve's healing weave, they would instantly know everything about how it worked. The modern Aes Sedai certainly don't; they can't figure out why Logain was healed to full strength while Suian and Leane are just barely strong enough to qualify as Aes Sedai. I'm not willing to accept that they couldn't use a weave without missing some subtle side-effect.

As for the drilling into the bore, I know it isn't exactly the same thing, but stay with me for a moment. If the Collam Daan is anything like a modern research university, then it's not like Mierin and Beidomon were rubbing their fingers together and cackling in the basement with only their faithful Aiel knowing what they were up to. They would have been part of a department, with department heads responsible for keeping an eye on what they were doing. They would have had to answer to grant committees. If there was even a remote chance that their research might have been dangerous, they would have had to justify it through the gills.

Perhaps they wouldn't have to go through the exact same steps as at a modern school, but if the Collam Daan was able to advance science, I can't imagine it didn't have some sort of bureaucracy in place along with some safeguards and ethical guidelines to keep things in order. But whatever safeguards there were, they failed entirely. They missed something so huge that it caused the Collam Daan itself to go boom.

If the powers that be missed something that big, I think it's distinctly possible they missed something much smaller and more subtle, even with a weave that was used much more frequently. If it took 1000s of uses of it before you would see any effect, that could easily be overlooked if no one was specifically looking for it.
Alice Arneson
184. Wetlandernw
167. hoping Hoping that this marks the end of this unpleasantness-or I will touch you armed and take you all gaishan - Go for it!!

168. UncrownedKing
Come on Friday. Hear, hear!!


177. jamesedjones
The uncivility started when one of the posters suggested that Leigh moderate her language. Yes, I remember the entire thing all too nauseatingly well. It was disgusting. As if Leigh hadn't taken care of it in the next comment quite adequately. I didn't see any reason to bring up more detail than was necessary. And how do you know we haven't seen anotherfan since then? Since he wasn't logged on, he could still be on here with another name and you'd never know. BTW, have you noticed that the language on here has gotten a lot cleaner since then, as a general rule? Oh, and for what it's worth, there have been a few other rather heated debates where names were called and great offense taken. NO NAMES, but at one point someone said they didn't want to associate with us terrible people any more. Oh well.

175. Joed1414
...I think that the counter stroke when he was sealed in the bore was made with the true power. I believe this taint could have been an injection of the True power into Saidin... No idea if this will hold up under intense scrutiny, but I like the idea that the True Power was the source of the taint on Saidin. It makes a certain amount of sense, given the effect the crossed balefires (One Power X True Power in Shadar Logoth) had on Rand. No idea if RJ had this in mind or not, but it's a cool thought. I like it.
AJ MacPherson
185. Mackey62
Is that why Bela was so winded when she ran to EF, Narg tired to have his way with her in the Barn?

Oh sorry, wild speculation. Please ignore.
Michael Catapano
186. hoping
wetlandernw@184
done
Consider yourselves gaishan, you know who you are. You now have a year and a day of keeping this site clear of RFife's rickrolls, or until the bleakness takes you
Blake Engholm
187. UncrownedKing
@186 Hoping
I have compiled a list of said offenders. Look and see which of our bretheren you can now order around.
toryx
188. alreadymadwithtalkoftheAoL
jamesedjones @178
Well he is, isn't he? I also called him Champion of the Light, too, in case you haven't noticed.

Lsana @183
Perhaps they would not be able to figure out why Logain was healed to full strength while Siuan and Leane. But then again, in the AoL they were more sensitive to the nuances of Saidin/Saidar interrelations, so it's possible the difference might be obvious to them as well. How are we to know, after all, we have no POV. Halima couldn't care less.
K F
191. TAmyrlinring1
UCK @187

That is a stubborn, willful gaishan who lacks in ji and doesn't recognize his toh. Can we let Sorilea at him?
Kevin Morgan
192. DrMorganstien
@190 R.Fife
Looks even better than I expected
K F
193. TAmyrlinring1
RFife @190

I think Lan and Moiraine look a lot better than the book covers even if Moiraine is, well, rather generously endowed. The boys are good, but I think Rand looks a little weird. Definitely better than the book covers though.
Elroy Skimms
194. elroyskimms
Roxinos @ 164

Well said. There may always be a nicer way of saying something, but we can't please everyone. You attacked his argument and not him, that seemed clear enough to me. If he was offended, he can speak up. I appreciate R.Fife et. al. for sticking up where they thought it was needed, but we're all big kids on this playground and should be able to speak up for ourselves when needed.

You may as well speculate on the nature of Bela's sex life...


...Narg

-E

EDIT: Looks like Mackey62 @ 185 beat me to it... {angry fist shaking and taunting in his/her general direction}
Joseph Daly
195. Joed1414
@194
Did you happen to see the last post I made rebuting her attack? What do you think about that? I'm not offended btw. Who gets offended by some random person on the internet? There is evidence to suggest my theory holds water. Just because I think differently from her doesn't mean what I said is "nonsense" though.
Tess Laird
196. thewindrose
I am so glad I got home for that UCK!!
Thanks for the link R.Fife, I like how it looks, and I will be getting it for my son - he is 8 and likes to draw...comics - great way to get him involved in my madness.

Also, I like the idea that the taint was created by the TP. I will have to think on that, has there been any indication in any of the books about this? Or on one of the theory websites?
Joseph Daly
197. Joed1414
@196
What other power does the DO use? It must have been the TP. Its logical right?
Luke M
198. lmelior
@Roxinos
#164
Is it possible? Sure.

#169
I do not think he's wrong. I know he's wrong.

For one who prides himself in logic, that's a pretty deep logic fail there. You're basing your argument on assumption, that the AoL Aes Sedai would know if there were negative effects on the Pattern from male Traveling weave, because they so quickly recognized the problems with using balefire. However, it is not logical to assume they would recognize any negative effects of Traveling if they are several orders of magnitude smaller than those of balefire.

For a real life example, humans have been smoking tobacco for 7000 years, and only within the last 100 have we realized that it's bad for you. On the other hand, we probably learned pretty quickly that setting yourself on fire is bad for you too.

@Joed1414 #175
Hmmm, interesting...recall also that Asha'man healing is rougher than Aes Sedai healing (not just Nynaeve's better healing either). True Power healing, from the prologue, is immensely painful. There are pretty drastic effects to channeling the True Power, perhaps the madness of channeling saidin is simply a slower version of the same effect. Interesting Demandred quote: "[Moridin] truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison."

Explaining the male Forsaken in light of this could be the weak part though (recognizing the taint, how they freak out when Rand cuts their cords, etc.).
Joseph Daly
199. Joed1414
I want to know what roxi thinks about this. How he/she shoots this one down get her in here.
K F
200. TAmyrlinring1
Joed1414@195 and elroyskimms@194

Roxinos is a guy. I am glad that joed was not offened by Roxinos' comments, but agree with joed that calling someone's statements "nonsense" is not necessarily appropriate. Not to mention some race-baiting comments.

And, elroy--are you sure there aren't any kids on here? A lot of people have stated they started reading these books pretty young, and I'd really hate for even a teenager to be watching posts and thinking that dismissing someone's argument that way is an appropriate way to act on one of these boards. Adults present arguments without judgment. It's not really needed anyway. Give the cite (where applicable), give the argument, enough said.
toryx
201. alreadymadwithWOTcomics
Is it just me... or does the Myrddraal look like a knockoff of a Nazgul?
And Moiraine may be short, but I never thought she was HUGE.
Joseph Daly
202. Joed1414
What do you think about my theory tamyrlin?
Elroy Skimms
203. elroyskimms
Joed1414 @ 195

Did you happen to see the last post I made rebuting her attack? What do you think about that?


My point was that you are capable of addressing it on your own. R.Fife et. al., though well meaning, only make it worse by dragging it out, much like I am doing here. Can I be the kettle?

Your opinion is that what you said is NOT nonsense. Roxi's opinion is that it IS nonsense. To each his own. You think what I say IS nonsense, and I'd probably happen to agree with you. The point though is that Roxi's view of your idea is just as valid as your own opinion of it.

-E
Joseph Daly
204. Joed1414
I think it was the angle of the camera that made her look giant. I think I might pick that comic up. Never got into comics but its WOT so I might.
K F
205. TAmyrlinring1
lmelior@198

Hmm, if saidin healing is "rougher", and the true source healing is really bad, and you think that maybe saidin's healing is rougher because of a TS taint on saidin, then now that saidin is "clean", shouldn't we see, oh was it Damer, healing someone and it not being terrible anymore? Or, at least not so bad--saidin is chaotic/rough, etc. anyway, so there might be some of that painfulness that is simply due to saidin. Interesting line of thought though. I especially liked the earlier discussions with the Moridin/Rand crossed-balefire theories, which is of course, related here.
Joseph Daly
206. Joed1414
I don't know if I'm right but it would be cool. I mean I've read the books 7 or 8 times but i don't research them like some people. I want to hear what he says about the evidence i found that supports my theory.
Tess Laird
208. thewindrose
alreadymadwithWOTcomics- RJ did say the first 100 or so pages were supposed to be a lot like LoTR - so Nazgul = Myrddraal - sure. And for the other hrmm obsevation - comic license?
K F
209. TAmyrlinring1
elroyskimms@203

I have to disagree--not that joed isn't perfectly capable of taking care of himself--but that there is some problem with "tactful intervention".

Roxinos has some valuable commentary to add to the discussion--seems fairly smart even if intentionally not tactful, but initially ignoring the offensive bits wasn't working, and there is no need for that stuff. RFife was really very darn tactful and polite, and it should have ended there, but frankly, I doubt it has.

I think I'm tired of the commentary kettle on this one now. Back to a real discussion . . .
Joseph Daly
210. Joed1414
The one he said was nonsense. If the taint was Tp and TP rips holes in the pattern/reality then touching the pattern with tainted saidin thousands of times could be turning the pattern to swiss cheese. This might explain the problem men are having traveling. What happens when you try to push through something when theres already a hole there? This could explain the weaves snapping into place. Or sometimes not working at all.
Noton Yourlife
211. Roxinos
@173/Wetlandernw:

Established where? and by whom? Personally I don't buy it, and as someone said up there a bit, barring straight talk from RJ or his notes, you can't prove that's what it means. You can only say that you and many others are convinced of it.


I never said established by explicit mention in books or by RJ. I know far too little about RJ's Q&A sessions on various tours for my own good.

However, it is the fairly logical conclusion and it is generally accepted by the online community.

Of course, I said it so offhandedly that I should be shot. The Lord of Chaos is not just Rand, but rather it is a command to sow general disorder, dissent, and chaos through the ranks of the Light.

Taken from the FAQ at http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.5_blackornot/1.5.6_taim.html

The DO's orders were to "let the Lord of Chaos rule," which seems to refer to "sowing chaos" in general, and to promoting divisiveness among the enemies of the Shadow.


This isn't something I really care to argue about. It's really not something I know enough to argue about, certainly. But it most certainly does not refer to the Great Lord himself.

You guys are getting all wound up making these detailed arguments, and there's a pretty good chance that RJ himself had a much more simple explanation for each one.


Not sure anyone is getting wound up about anything. Taking the time out to write a long post does not indicate any exasperation or irritation. It merely indicates, at the very least, a mild interest in the topic at hand and a willingness to debate.

@174/TAmyrlinring1:

Look, I was trying to kindly offer advice on how to avoid needlessly long responses directed to your offensive behavior thereby interrupting the enjoyment of the discussion.


I appreciate the effort. I do. But please refrain. It does not interrupt my enjoyment. I've been dealing with it for a good portion of my life. I've grown used to it.

If you're not going to step up to the group plate, then, well, whether you get it or not, that is in fact your problem.


Probably. Yet I maintain that arrogance and rudeness are not equal. Akin to one another, perhaps, but not equal.

@172/alreadymad:

Well I wouldn't exactly go so far as to say some arguments are nonsense.


Eh, difference of opinion. I'm alright with that. So long as you don't try to preclude me from voicing my opinion, that is. Which, I don't think you or anyone else on here would try to do. I get that you're all trying to keep the peace.

@175/Joed1414:

i think that the counter stroke when he was sealed in the bore was made with the true power.


Nope. It makes no sense that the True Power can be overlaid like a taint on the One Power. They are rather opposing powers. After all, look at what happened when a stream of balefire made with the One Power and a stream of balefire made with the True Power crossed ("Whatever you do, don't cross the streams").

Now if the true power tears holes in the pattern and the true power is part of saidin when it was tainted then my theory holds water.


Still doesn't hold water, actually, for a few reasons.

1. We know the effects True Power has on an individual (gradual, but intense addiction; insanity; saa which eventually goes from being black flecks across the vision to cavernous eyes and mouth of fire), and the taint the True Power is not.

2. Even if the taint on saidin was the True Power, it wouldn't effect weaves. When saidin is channeled, the channeler acts as a conduit ("...the One Power is passing through the channeler, one of the reasons for individual limits on how much of the Power a particular person can handle. (And you have seen characters react as if to a blow from having a flow snapped or cut.)") for the One Power. As such, the taint is absorbed by the channeler and does not effect the weave at all.

3. The aforementioned repellent properties of the two Powers.

BTW no offense taken.


Thanks. There sincerely was none intended.

@176/jamesedjones:

OMG Your comments on Bela's love life, bunny slippers, and the broad, sweeping (maybe a bit racist) joke about minorities in FL had me crying I was laughing so hard. I don't agree with any of it (the stuff that falls outside of your logic), but I have my suspicions that you don't either. You strike me as the type to find a great deal of entertainment in tweaking other peoples noses.


Oh, thanks so much. :D You know me so well, and you've only read a few of my posts. I'm glad to make you laugh. Though, honestly, I think Leigh has a better sense of humor than myself.

@182/sinfulcashew:

Hope you don't mind the nickname?


Actually, I do. Just Rox, please. Only a select few people call me Roxy, and it's with the specific intent to piss me off (they absolutely refuse to stop).

Just wanted to ask if you have given us your a/s/l?
I would like to know whereof you grew up, your background, how you became so strong.


I was actually planning on doing that survey yesterday, but I got distracted doing other things.

I'm 18, male, and I live in Miami, FL. I've lived in Miami all of my life. Graduated last year. I'm currently attending a local college with a major in English. The details of how my personality developed to what it is now is a much longer story then I'm willing to tell. Needless to say, I'm fairly average. I come off much the same way in person as online, but it's a bit more toned down in person. I wouldn't say I'm shy, I just have a bit of mild anxiety combined with stage fright (redundant?).

I got into The Wheel of Time when I was 12. My brother and my father were always talking about the series, and I got tired of listening to them without actually understanding a single word of what they were saying. I confronted my dad, and he tossed me The Eye of the World. I spent the next two years reading through the series. Most recently, I absorbed the Knife of Dreams in about 17 hours. Around the time I finished reading through the series (14, late 2004), I Googled fan sites for the series and found Dragonmount.

I spent my first few months on Dragonmount on the General WoT Discussion board (my first thread was asking what the Eye of the World was). Then I moved to the Community side and spent the next three and a half years tormenting people with my wit from the Shayol Ghul community. I quit a high ranking position there about a year and a half or so ago and then quit the community altogether about a year ago.

And I got banned from Dragonmount about a month ago. I would hate to see it happen again. I don't think it will. ;)

@183/Lsana:

The modern Aes Sedai certainly don't; they can't figure out why Logain was healed to full strength while Suian and Leane are just barely strong enough to qualify as Aes Sedai.


They knew how the weave worked watching it once. And within seconds they were contemplating how to improve the weave and how to apply it to various different specific situations. They could not figure out why it effected men and women differently, but they understood how it worked. And that's my point. The Aes Sedai of today can understand a weave instantly. Back then, the same was most likely true. And in the Age of Legends, they also had extensive research facilities and plenty of time to research.

I'm not willing to accept that they couldn't use a weave without missing some subtle side-effect.


The Aes Sedai of the present, probably not. But then again, they do not study. But they understand how Traveling works merely by using it. The Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends most likely spent time studying the weave for Traveling. They (the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends) most likely would not miss a side-effect. Especially one as severe as damaging the Pattern.

If the Collam Daan is anything like a modern research university, then it's not like Mierin and Beidomon were rubbing their fingers together and cackling in the basement with only their faithful Aiel knowing what they were up to.


Just being pedantic here, but you're right. It isn't known whether or not Mierin was aware what the prison was, though the chance is there. Beidomon most certainly did not know what the prison was. In fact, he was lucky he even survived Collam Daan's explosion. And none of the Aiel knew about what was in the prison (or that it was even a prison), as evidenced by Rand's walk through the crystal ter'angreal.

They would have been part of a department, with department heads responsible for keeping an eye on what they were doing.


They were the department heads. They had no one to answer to, because they were the ones heading the research. They were the ones performing most of the research.

They would have had to answer to grant committees.


Doubtful, but I won't rule it out.

If there was even a remote chance that their research might have been dangerous, they would have had to justify it through the gills.


Agreed. But, presumably, they had no clue what it was. Mierin was rather respected, and she was "convinced" that she'd found another source of the One Power which did not separate itself between genders. You know that she had convinced everyone else of this certainly from, again, Rand's trip through the crystal ter'angreal.

If the powers that be missed something that big, I think it's distinctly possible they missed something much smaller and more subtle, even with a weave that was used much more frequently.


They did not miss anything because the prison was not something they had such intimate control over as the Power. As I've said before, there is a rather large difference between the methods of experimentation required on an object and the methods of experimentation required with the One Power. I know of no better way to phrase it than the intimacy of the One Power. It isn't like examining something with your five senses.

@185/Mackey62:

Is that why Bela was so winded when she ran to EF, Narg tired to have his way with her in the Barn?

Oh sorry, wild speculation. Please ignore.


What're you talking about? That's brilliant!

@198/lmelior:

You're basing your argument on assumption, that the AoL Aes Sedai would know if there were negative effects on the Pattern from male Traveling weave, because they so quickly recognized the problems with using balefire.


Nope. I'll present my argument in traditional logical terms: premises and a conclusion.

Premises:
1. The One Power is an inherently scientific tool.
2. The One Power is an intensely intimate tool.
3. The Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were a scientific bunch.
4. Due to (3), the Aes Sedai studied weaves and things related to the One Power extensively.
5. Modern Aes Sedai can understand how a weave works by simply seeing it and performing it once.
6. (5) must also be true of Age of Legends Aes Sedai.
7. Due to all of the above, the Age of Legends Aes Sedai must have studied Traveling extensively.
8. Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends lived to serve, and they attempted to do everything for the benefit of mankind.
9. The One Power was viewed as the ultimate tool to benefit mankind.
10. Any weave which had detrimental effects would be disavowed due to 8 and 9.
11. Balefire, a weave with decidedly detrimental effects on the Pattern, was discovered to have detrimental effects on the Pattern with a decided lack of scrutiny.
12. The nature of the Pattern is fairly well understood (though, not necessarily the Wheel and Ages and the like as evidenced by Graendal).

Conclusion:
Traveling would not have been used as extensively as it was if it had any detrimental effects on the Pattern, and it would most likely have been discovered to have detrimental effects if they existed.

For a real life example, humans have been smoking tobacco for 7000 years, and only within the last 100 have we realized that it's bad for you.


A) Smoking tobacco is not nearly as intimate as using the One Power. It is not an action which merely performing it induces an understanding of it.

B) The harmful effects of tobacco were understood after scientific scrutiny, which Traveling almost certainly endured during the Age of Legends as did, probably, every other weave.

@200/TAmyrlinring1:

Roxinos is a guy.


How'd you know?

Not to mention some race-baiting comments.


You know, that's the second time someone has mentioned a potentially racist comment of mine. I'm actually quite flabbergasted. I'm curious as to which statement has incurred such an understanding. I'll be sure to look it over and remove it if it's inappropriate.

@209/TAmyrlinring1:

Roxinos has some valuable commentary to add to the discussion--seems fairly smart even if intentionally not tactful...


Thank you.
K F
212. TAmyrlinring1
thewindrose @208

. . . comic license? Oi! She looks very nice though, all things considered even. I'm going to hope they make Rand look a little less Yu-gi-oh (or however you spell that out, *shakes head sadly for giving clues to age*) in the comic itself, but Lan in particular looks closer to how I imagined him. The Lan on EotW was just unreal--I mean really unreal, even in Randland.
Elroy Skimms
213. elroyskimms
TAmyrlinring1 @ 200
are you sure there aren't any kids on here?
I'd really hate for even a teenager to be watching posts and thinking that dismissing someone's argument that way is an appropriate way to act on one of these boards. Adults present arguments without judgment.


I used "big kids" and "playground" instead of "adults" intentionally. We can all disagree and still play nice. Joed has already responded that he wasn't offended, so the sleeping dog or dead horse should have been left to lie unbeaten. But, since I've never been able to pass a sleeping dog without kicking it or beating a dead equestrian, I will continue. Any decent debate offers the participants a rebuttal. It is a chance to "judge" the opposing opinion that was just presented, and usually an attempt to invalidate it with evidence. Roxi gave the opposing evidence, and drew the conclusion that Joed's suggestion was nonsense and held no weight. Roxi did so without attacking Joed personally in any way, he kept the comments specifically targeted to the suggestion given by Joed. Roxi even used actual textual evidence, which is better than most presidential debates. I still see no foul.

-E
Joseph Daly
214. Joed1414
There was no taint in the AOLs Roxi. Perhaps traveling wasn't harmful in TAOLs but due to the taint it is in the present. Jordan took the time for rand to explain how to travel in detail. Maybe he was being subtle.
Joseph Daly
215. Joed1414
So basically roxy you sound like a college no=it-all hippie that Cartman from south park would capture and put in his basement. Nothing wrong with what you said but damn man.
Alice Arneson
216. Wetlandernw
lmelior@198

Agree that from the data given, it's extrapolating pretty freely, even loosely, to assume that because they had a big research institute, they therefore knew all there was to know about the weaves they used. It's always possible for some miniscule side effect to be missed by even a good researcher, but miniscule effects can add up over time & use.

That aside, if the taint is TP, the effect on the pattern of those saidin-holes could be dramatically different in this age than it was in the AOL. So Joed's theory, even if it wasn't worked all the way through, may have been correct.

I'd like to know what you were thinking with this: Explaining the male Forsaken in light of this could be the weak part though (recognizing the taint, how they freak out when Rand cuts their cords, etc.). I'm intrigued by the TP/taint theory and would like to know the potential problems so I can stew on them. :)
K F
217. TAmyrlinring1
Roxinos @211

I could say that no female could be so arrogant or rude or childish or whatever, but nah, that's not it. I can tell you truly that from the tenor of your retorts that I IMMEDIATELY suspected your age. That is not a statement intended to flatter you. But, as for the rest, I merely clicked on your moniker and it happily told me your full name and residence (city, at least). Then a quick Google search even gave me your picture and list of friends on Facebook--most of which seem to have some Hispanic heritage or at least name, so your comments are most mystifying on that front. By the way, it might be a good idea NOT to put your full name on a blog or chat site. You're legally an adult and all that, but if you're going to go out of your way to not be tactful on various sites, please watch out. We are, I think, all pretty calm, mild people here, but that is not true of everywhere.

I am not in your area, but I am also very familiar with many members of a significant hispanic population and found your gross generalization, well, more likely to be true of a group of your clearly very young friends who just also happen to be Hispanic than actually representative of the Hispanic population as a whole, so I figured you might even be quick enough that you were just trying to mess with us on that one--hence the "baiting" part of my statement. But, I am glad you are at least entertaining the notion of examining what you are saying. Hey, progress!

And I mean it, you do have some good insights, but you're really killing getting them read for two reasons, (1) being intentionally tactless, and (2)un-bel-iev-ably long posts. (Although the second point is the pot calling the kettle black on this one.)
Joseph Daly
218. Joed1414
Yeah he's long winded I really don't want CTS from all the typing or i'm sure i could write up a full theory.
Tess Laird
219. thewindrose
I would like to take a moment and ask the IT minded of our community, if really long posts would be a way to break TOR again? We know number of posts = 800+ breaks it, I don't how we broke it when we couldn't bbCode, and alreayMad "enraged" the powers that be with his long handles, sooo could several long post's of Rox's type be our next "break it break it break it" moment?
Richard Fife
220. R.Fife
Rox:
You comment that you "hispanic" neighbors are clingy. I believe that was the racial stereotyping being latched onto.

Anywho, we have no proof of Lanfear/Bedi being dept heads. They were simply listed as researchers working on a project. Plenty of talented scientists don't get to be the beaucratic top dog (and frankly don't want it as it takes away from research time).

Also, even if they were dept heads, their research would still need to go before boards and committees, both for general approval and safety analysis and funding. Not to mention they had probably been putting out journal articals and papers like mad trying to generate interest and thus money (and more important for the Age, respect) for their project.

That being said, how, pray tell, does one study the pattern? We have yet to see a single textual reference to the pattern itself being observed directly, so it could be that while the AS could see large disruptions to it, ie Balefire burning large swaths, they were not as apt at seeing small problems, a la the fraying/rubbing of the threads. Not outright saying I think Traveling is "bad", but I won't be so arrogant as to instantly say I "know" it is one way or the other.

As to the TP/Saidin idea, I still like it. The taint and Saidin don't mix, after all. It's an oil slick on top. And male channeling is affected by the taint vis a vis the Ways. They were created with Saidin (potentially soley Saidin), and they went dark and evil. Granted, this is a bit of a logical leap, but our vaunted AS and the Ogier both are of the opinion that it was likely the taint from Saidin that corrupted the saidin-wrought construct.

So, while most of the taint is absorbed by the channeler, it is not irrational to think some small part carries on to the weave. Might even explain why Damar was able to contain the Shadar Logath evil when the AS with Rand were completely unable.

And the TP/OP Balefire/Ghostbusters instance is not a control group. For all we know, bad juju happens when Balefire meets Balefire in general, or perhaps when Saidar balefire meets Saidin Balefire too.
toryx
221. Aegnor
Roxinos@164

I think it is fairly obvious that Lanfear is a psychopath (a category which all of the forsaken could probably fall into). It is unlikely that Lanfear is capable of actual love for anyone but herself.

That doesn't mean she doesn't feel possesive of Rand. Imagine the psychopathic boyfriend, who beats and tortures his girlfriend, and then finally kills her when she tries to leave. He doesn't actually love her, but he views her as his and is furious when she tries to leave him.

This is the exact same type of "love" that Lanfear has for Rand. With LTT Lanfear considered him hers. Having someone as powerful as LTT be hers gave her a power trip. Psychopaths mimic love for many reasons, but they aren't capable of actually feeling it.
K F
222. TAmyrlinring1
Elroyskimms@213

Was that a whinny? Poor horse . . . alas I have the same failing. It was the additive effect of the comments that made it somewhat personal, and not everyone will have as thick a skin as joed, and frankly, shouldn't have to have.

I think that Roxinos finally understood at least where several us were going with our modest reproaches, since he said @211 that "Eh, difference of opinion" referencing an earlier statement that peoples' opinions shouldn't be dismissed as nonsense "I'm alright with that. So long as you don't try to preclude me from voicing my opinion, that is. Which, I don't think you or anyone else on here would try to do. I get that you're all trying to keep the peace." That went out after my last diatribe, so I am trying to slowly walk away from the horse here ;-) I have no trouble with his opinions, whether supported by copious facts or even not, I merely have trouble with people being rude and dismissive of others' opinions when there is no need--all you have to do is say you disagree. **turns back and RUNS from horse*
Noton Yourlife
223. Roxinos
@213/elroyskimms:

I still see no foul.


Thank you.

@214/Joed1414:

There was no taint in the AOLs Roxi. Perhaps traveling wasn't harmful in TAOLs but due to the taint it is in the present. Jordan took the time for rand to explain how to travel in detail. Maybe he was being subtle.


And I responded to this. Well, both points made, actually.

1) The taint does not effect a weave of saidin at all as it is absorbed entirely by the channeler (see my previous post where I quote RJ on how the One Power passes through the channeler)

2) You're still basing your entire argument on a simple metaphor used by Rand. That metaphor is that male Traveling is like "boring a hole in the Pattern." To base your entire belief on a single metaphor and then to try to justify that belief with a constantly changing argument. First your argument is that the method of "boring a hold in the Pattern" is what causes damage to the Pattern. Then your argument is that the taint is what causes damage to the Pattern. Then, when you can't explain how the taint could do such a thing, you latch onto the fact that the True Power and the taint both come from the same source and then equate the two and use another metaphor to explain how the True Power as the taint could damage the Pattern when Traveling.

I love semantic arguments. When we're actually both arguing the use of a single word over another word. However, when the entire basis of your belief is a single metaphor and you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence, constantly shifted your position to support your belief, and (failing the other two options) failed to actually provide a rationale grounded in the books, I'm forced to call your theory bunk.

So basically roxy you sound like a college no=it-all hippie that Cartman from south park would capture and put in his basement. Nothing wrong with what you said but damn man.


There's really no tactful way to respond to this, so I won't.

@216/Wetlandernw:

So Joed's theory, even if it wasn't worked all the way through, may have been correct.


Oh yes. It may be correct. Again, just as Bela may be the Great Lord of the Dark. Just because it's a possibility doesn't mean we should treat it seriously. Without logical reasoning grounded in the books or evidence directly from the books or something RJ himself as said, there's no reason to believe something like that.

@217/TAmyrlinring1:

Congratulations, TAmyrlinring1. You've just incited me to stop posting here. For various reasons.
K F
224. TAmyrlinring1
RFife @220

Killjoy. Bringing the control group into it. I really liked the taint explanation for the balefire craze. Argh, will we ever have an answer now--Rand cleaned up saidin, so that can never be a definitive yes or no unless it's in the Creator's notes somewhere.

thewindrose@219

Where's Davram Bashere when you need him? I'll try to back down on mine just in case. Are you with us on that Roxinos?
K F
225. TAmyrlinring1
Roxinos @223
That was not the intent. The intent was to get you to think about how you say things, and also, because you are young, I wanted you to understand that you *are* putting yourself out there, and by identifying yourself, possibly in a scary way. There are some really nasty people out here, and by being admittedly arrogant you are going to cheese some people off mightily. Just change your id information so that people can't look you up. If you're scared of me, notify the site and why. I'm perfectly non-scary, but when I clicked on you to see if you had any information listed to get a better read on why you responded the way you did, there was a name. Curious, I googled it, and there is a picture of you showing me that you are indeed young. So, I felt I should give you some motherly advice to protect yourself from someone out there who might do something with that info.
Tess Laird
226. thewindrose
As I said above - I like the TP taint idea. I believe people can disagree with out making each other feel bad, and was in agreement with what RFife sedai said when he called out Rox. I am sad that Rox seems to have decided to leave us, all idea's are good to think about - but please be less... ya know!
Joseph Daly
227. Joed1414
I was just trying to lighten the situation roxy. Just a little humor. Come on who didn't think that SP episode was the S**T? Even if he cleansed Saidin there are still thousands of tainted holes in the pattern , if my theory is correct. There has to be some cause to the reality changing in the WOT world. You could say its the Dark One being loose. But Rand is destined to Break the world again is he not?
K F
228. TAmyrlinring1
Well everyone, he does have talent--I feel a bit like the Grinch. I still think the reproof to be respectful of other posters was appropriate, but I believe now that that was all probably bravado. If you're looking at this Roxinos, I do still think you have talent and that your ideas could stand on their own--the rest is not necessary.
Hugh Arai
229. HArai
R.Fife@220: It is interesting that it is the Ways, an OP contruct we know was created with saidin that decayed over time. The Stone did not and that it was created after the Breaking so very likely with saidar alone. Do we have other examples of long-term OP constructs that we know were created with one or the other? It makes me wonder about the ter'angreal that appear to have such unstable effects. Created with saidin perhaps?
Joseph Daly
232. Joed1414
How about the Balefire one that disintegrated that Black Ajah member?
James Jones
233. jamesedjones
Um, guys, what is the pattern?

Most of the responses on here seem to indicate that the pattern is representative of reality "as a whole." That the threads represent every single tiny particle of structure, and they flow through time.

On the other hand, RJ (along with quite a few other sources) has described the pattern as all of existence as defined by the lives living in it. Those "lives" are the threads. So if you open a gateway on top of a horse, you sever the thread of the horse's life, and the death works just like every other death in the pattern. Otherwise, you do nothing to the pattern. Unless you go back and kick the horse - in which case you start a flame war. :P
Joseph Daly
234. Joed1414
But Ishy or aginor i fiorget which one said the DO wants to tear the age lace. Break the wheel of time and rip the pattern.
K F
235. TAmyrlinring1
jamesdjones @233
Don't kick the horse. It's a trap like the broken ter'angreal to the sa'angreal--it'll cause pain and reel you in.
Richard Fife
236. R.Fife
Off hand, I think the Ways are the only large OP construct created post taint aside from the Eye, which was made specifically to avoid it being tainted. I don't know if you could consider, you know, the entire map a saidin-wrote thing. Not exactly the same as the Ways, though, since the Ways are more, you know, supernaturally on-going, as opposed to just kicked around dirt.

Also, I don't think the Stone would count in the same way as the Ways, since I am fairly sure (not 100%) that it was commented in the text somewhere that it was only built using the power, but not "reinforced" or "imbued" with the power, thus why Mat was able to blow a hole in the side of it.

Re:James @233
There was actually some heated discussion about this at the Rampant Theories panal at JordanCon. Best answer I heard and liked was that the shape of the pattern is the choices/actions of the lives. I will add to this, though, that I think that is more of the design of the "age lace" and the base material the design is being woven into is the whole of existence. After all, per Verin, TAR is part of the greater pattern too, the woop to each world of "if"'s weft. Also, to "punch a hole" in the pattern a la Rand, and to travel "outside" of the pattern as per skimming, well, seems that Existence has to come in there somewhere.
Hugh Arai
237. HArai
TAmyrlinring1@231: I didn't have one in particular in mind, but in general the ones that keep getting described as "So'n'so Sedai tried to study the x ter'angreal and she was burnt out and lost her memory for a week". Those ones :) With the sort of safeguards that the ones the Aes Sedai know how to work seem to have built in, it just seems strange to me that every so often one is so trememdously dangerous.

On a related note: We know Callandor is flawed. Do we know if it's always been flawed? Lanfear seemed to think Rand should use it which is a strange thing to tell such an inexperienced channeler if you know.. you want him to live to be your love slave.
K F
238. TAmyrlinring1
joed1414 @234 I think that was ishy, but not sure. And, I'm a little lost on where the generalized discussion of the pattern fits here. At one point we're discussing that the TP may be the taint on saidin, and there's some discussion by Roxinos that that can't be because it's all absorbed (taint) by the channeler, and then RFife argues that we don't know that and that the ways are evidence to the contrary. So, what was the pattern bit?

As for the unstable ter'angreal--yes the one Jean Cade used I think, interesting thought! I just assumed that she wasn't strong enough to control it.
K F
239. TAmyrlinring1
HArai @237

Hmm. That's a thought. How many of them are truly "safe" though? The ones that take you TAR can't be because you can get hurt (and on occasion burnt out) and in the case of the Acceptatron (I think that was what I heard it called), you can even just not come back at all. I guess the one that makes fancloth (Gaidan cloaks) is "safe", but are there really that many others that are?
Hugh Arai
240. HArai
R.Fife@236: I think I am looking for long-term "imbued" objects as you put it. Will have to check the text about the Stone, memory is telling me you have it correct. Should also check what the text says about the White Bridge, construction-wise.

There's the Seals to the DO's prison. They seem to be decaying too. Probably a bit of a stretch to call that taint though.
Richard Fife
241. R.Fife
HArai, the seals would be a bit of a comment on the decaying power of the TP, though, since the seals are more or less directly touching the DO's influence, and thus are probably somewhat "awash" with the TP/taint (if they are indeed the same). I always got the impression that White Bridge was made during AoL.
Hugh Arai
242. HArai
Tamyrlinring1@238,239: I guess what I mean by safe is "safe to operate as intended". For example, channeling into the TAR ter'angreals to get you to TAR doen't appear to be dangerous, it's TAR itself that is. And channeling into the Acceptatron to create the gate doesn't appear to be dangerous, it seems like it's not taking the gate back, that makes you not come back at all.

But there are other objects describe where just channeling at them to see what happens or even channeling near them is dangerous. I speculate those could be made with saidin, therefore tainted and with their wires crossed so to speak.

Also the angreals made for women are described as having buffers that keep you from drawing too much, whereas Callandor is busted. Rand's little fat man angreal seems to work fine though so that could be one against. We don't know if a male angreal can be made by a woman but I'd be surprised considering they can't even see flows of saidin.

Just a looney theory to hurl upon the web :)
Joseph Daly
243. Joed1414
@238
It all ties in. My point is that gateways with tainted saidin are boring holes in the pattern. The pattern is decaying just like the ways!!! The taint comes from the true power that the DO injected into the one power. And if what rfife and Harai are saying is true then maybe the DO did this consciously so the seals would break down after a time. His counter stroke wasn't made to make all the male AS insane it was so he would one day get out of his prison.
James Jones
244. jamesedjones
225. TAmyrlinring1

No, Tammy Thingy, what you did was not "motherly advice". What you did was incorporate a type of bullying. Little Boy bullying involves threats and action. Little Girl bullying involves revelations of information, such as gossip. You acted as a little girl bully by trying to scare Rox away (yes, that's exactly what you were trying to do). This wasn't a private email to the individual. And you could have sent that private email if you were able to find their facebook page. No, this was a revelation of information to everyone who might be offended by Rox.
Joseph Daly
245. Joed1414
Actually the seals were made post tainting of saidin so the seals breaking down wouldn't be because of tainted saidin but could be because of the tainted pattern.
sandi vogel
246. sinfulcashew
Rox:
"It merely indicates, at the very least, a MILD interest in the topic at hand and a willingness to debate."(Capitals mine)

If your interest is as you stated, I would not like to see when you are REALLY interested in a topic.
Kinda scary?
If you realize how you come across, you should also realize that the statement is way understated.

I certainly would not like to see you leave us. You bring a new-bright-colorful----(almost overbearing)- can't think of the right word-outlook to our humble page.

I did not see you as a male, let alone, one as young as you are.(I thought you were a 'girl' with a chip on her shoulder)
I take people as they come, however they come.
Then later I try to dig in and see what they are about.

I guess I'd better end this and get back to the topics at hand, of which I have no valid opinions.
later %(* *)%
Joseph Daly
247. Joed1414
I'm not offended btw. Its the internet you can't get offended by anything anyone says to you on the net. Who are they to you really? His is arrogent though and a know-it-all apparently. I'm sure hes trying to find a way to disprove my theory right now.
Alice Arneson
248. Wetlandernw
244. jamesedjones

Disagree strongly. Tam only commented on the info Rox himself has made public. And for what it's worth, didn't say a thing I hadn't thought of saying, only s/he got there first. I don't think s/he was at all out of line.
Hugh Arai
249. HArai
Joed1414: The only argument I would put up against your theory that the DO planned for tainted gateways to free him would be that if that was the plan making the male AS go mad and rot seems counter-productive. Why not just let them blip happily around until the Pattern tore? Instead you rapidly drain the pool of male channelers.

That doesn't prove tainted gateways don't damage the Pattern though. To do that someone would have to have proof that gateways don't damage the Pattern and that the taint doesn't affect the flows a male channeler casts. Roxinos hasn't done either with the arguments he put forth to this point.
toryx
250. alreadymadwithuntaintedPattern
thewindrose @219
I've never really encountered that broken thread error. But from what others who have encountered it described, it appears that each thread has a specific maximum number of bytes it can be. So yeah, I think we can break it with fewer but loooonnnggeerrrrr posts. On the other hand, the posting stopped at an even number so I'm not really a hundred percent on it.

R.Fife @220
From what we've seen thus far, the Pattern isn't studied directly. People study the effects on the Pattern. Similar to how Moiraine was able to track Rand via his ta'veren effect. Ishy also apparently has this skill.

HArai @237
Lanfear may simply have not known. Even Verin and the other browns did not show any signs of knowing. Only Cads seems to have bothered to dig up that particular detail.

HArai @240
Actually I'm pretty sure the Seals are decaying due to the Dark One. From what we are told, it's practically impervious to all natural and Power-related attacks. What could break such a thing? Something unnatural, of course, something not meant to be part of the Pattern. Most likely energies from the Dark One leeching through. Not exactly the taint. But coming from the same source as the taint. And the True Power.

Joed1414 @245
Now that's just plain wrong. The Seals were created to re-seal the Dark One's prison and end the War of Power. That was when Saidin was clean, before the Forsaken were imprisoned, and definitely before the Taint.
Hugh Arai
252. HArai
alreadymad(X)@250: That's sort of what I was getting at with Callandor. If Lanfear didn't know, could the flaw have happened after she was sealed away? It was the 3rd most powerful sa'angreal ever after all, she'd want to learn about it in case someone used it on her. If the flaw did happen after she was sealed away, it could be taint decay.
I don't insist on it, there's a lot of ifs there.
toryx
253. Planeswalker
hehehe @Roxinos
...must be the hormones, eh?

@everyone
...c'mon, i'm enjoying the posts... most of us are old people here already, thus we need to calm down and welcome young blood here. no need to ban Rox... he had good/great ideas too that we agree with, and some *uh-hum comments to other posters that others might take offense. I think we've thought him to be mild enough already or at least well, we know a little bit of his character to understand... okies?

i do agree though on the opinion that Lanfear IS IN LOVE with LTT. I don't like it when people say she isn't even capable of it. I mean, c'mon people, everyone HAS THE RIGHT TO FALL IN LOVE just because everyone has the capacity to love. Although, being in love does not falsify the fact that she IS crazy. She WANTS power, but she LOVES LTT. Can't both desires exist? am i right? or am i right? =)
Tess Laird
254. thewindrose
Lanfear loves power. I think that really sums it up. If she had convinced Rand to use the KC with her, he would have got a knife in the back after the objective{subplanting the DO} or "even the Creator" had happened. She may think she loves LTT, but it is just the power he has, and she wants to trump that and be number one. That is not love for a human but love for desire for power.
An aside, she seems amused and shows approval for Egwene desire to learn - remember back in The Dragon Reborn {Lanfear to Egwene} "Bold," the woman said. "You are bold to go running about so, alone, where so many murders have been done." She sounded almost pleased.
I think she mistakes Egwene's desire to learn as much as possibe as a desire to aquire as much power as possible.
K F
255. TAmyrlinring1
jamesed @243

Not biting or stooping to that level. Since your name is James I'm guessing it likely you wouldn't get the mother thing, but when I found out I could access that much info about him (and I don't do facebook, so I don't know anything about that, it was just the first link from Google) I told him so he could change it before he made someone angry and they could actually find him.

I was frustrated with the tenor of the comments, and only entered the conversation to support RFife's statement and let the kid know that that was not just one individual's sentiment, but I was certainly not angry. I gave the kid as many warm fuzzys as possible about that fact that he was obviously intelligent because I *didn't* want him to go. I'm unsure why you would want to devolve into name calling now, but should you wish to do so, you will. Whatever.
Richard Fife
256. R.Fife
Planeswalker@253:
I disagree that everyone has the capacity to love, at least in a healthy, mutually returned way. I have known a good many people with both chemical psychological issues or childhood traumas that have left them with distance and self-image issues that more or less make them incapible of respecting or getting close to another human enough to actually love them. Maybe Lanfear's daddy didn't hug her enough when she was a little girl, it toasted her self-image, and now she is desperately striving for power to prove herself to her long dead dad that she is good enough for a pat on the head and a hug.

All she wanted was to sit on the curb, eat ice cream, and count the cars, dammit!
toryx
257. alreadymadwithtalkofthetaint
HArai @252
That's possible. I always thought Callandor was flawed simply because knowledge had already begun to deteriorate by the time it was crafted. We don't really have any proof that it was created before the Taint. For all we know it does not have a buffer because they simply could not allow any males to participate in crafting it. With the taint present they did not dare include any males in creating it any more than absolutely necessary and hence they had no way of testing it to make sure it works properly.

Alternately, they simply designed it without the buffer. So that the Dragon Reborn would be forced to seek the help of women when he arose. It could all be a subtle message on their part that men and women had to work together. How were they to know that their descendants would have degenerated into a twisted, power-mongering, domineering, untrustworthy organization by the time the Dragon Reborn came on the scene?

thewindrose @254
Interesting, you are saying that Lanfear essentially saw a kindred spirit in Egwene.

R.Fife @256
You mean count the jo-cars. And the jumpers. And the hoverflies. And the sho-wings.
K F
258. TAmyrlinring1
windrose @254

I'm a bit of two minds about that myself (now I know how Rand feels). On the one hand, we know that Lanfear's *focus* is love of power--the need the greed for it. But, can we say truly and utterly that she doesn't love LTT too, or at least, her concept of LTT?

And, then my other side thinks that she's in daffy duck land and completely incapable of the true emotion, but then it becomes a game of semantics and just what is love?
Elroy Skimms
259. elroyskimms
R.Fife @ 256
wanted was to sit on the curb, eat ice cream, and count the cars, dammit!


lol

SQUIRREL ------>

-E
john massey
260. subwoofer
What?! Who kicked Bela?!!! The nerve!

K', sorry it took me awhile to get here but I had to wail by some epic posts... reminds me of 1:50-3:29 in we break for nobody. And then I had to go back again because some wiseacre said something about bunny slippers and I thought WTF?

I must of been in Jamaica for the whole course language/defending Leigh bit 'cause I still cuss like a sailor. I honestly was not aware it was an issue. Just me being me. But you were not talking about me so moving on...

I don't know if this was thrown out there or not so I will. Callandor- maybe it was made before the DO touched the world and there was a need for a buffer. It could of been like the Chysler building. Made and it was the tallest, then came the ESB and the WTC. Callandor may of come first and the other two things that were made that could channel more power were created in an attempt to one-up Callandor, and they made them bigger and better. And as they had to follow current "building codes" they were made with buffers because the taint was around then.

- Just spitballin'...
-@R.Fife- thank you for the protection of your yellow shawl. Let your healing touch flow to all...
K F
261. TAmyrlinring1
windrose @254

Interesting thought on Lanfear liking Egwene's "ambition". Hope she doesn't endeavor to take the little one under her wing--eek. I didn't think of it as being pleased--I just thought she was amused by the funny little child playing with the power. Adds another potential area for interaction later on.
Tess Laird
262. thewindrose
TAmyrlinring1 @258
Survey says - Lanfear is in daffy duck land;)
“You were always ambitious, Mierin.” His voice grated in his ears. “Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn’t Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!”

As to Lanfear and Egwene, I think there are some tells of Lanfear that indicate she is a "Go Girl Power" type of female. I think she resents that LTT and Isshy are "stonger" then she is in the power, and I think that was the driving force behind discovering a new type of power that both women and men could use. The question is, did she think that by discovering it, she would become the most powerful, or was there some kind of behind the scences "push" that made her think that this was some how promised to her if she unleased it.

I do not think Egwene seeks power, she wants unity, and I think she will see her way to the belief that women and men working together is the best way for the patern to weave.
Lanfear says she wants to work together, but she wants to be top dog.
john massey
263. subwoofer
@ TAmyrlinring1- don't sweat the small stuff. You were schooling the kid on the realities of the world. I tend to swear at my monitor then walk away and come back and attempt to be civil and respectful to the rest of the people here because they treat me the same way. Do unto others...

I have eaten my fair share of humble pie so I am speaking from a point of experience. There is nothing wrong with what you or R.Fife said. I have developed thicker skin over the years and as a fellow poster has pointed out, it is not worth getting worked up over a random occurance on the internet.

If I took everything that was said about me to heart... Warning, much use of inappropriate language- I'd go Jay and Silent Bob on random people. But I have bigger fish to fry these days... and you do get what you give. And we are all friends again. Kumbaya...

-edit- @whoeverwastalkinaboutLanfear&vader- it could happen. I saw Elvis the other day in a retirement home so anything is possible. Hoffa told me so. Just wanted to say that even though it was conceded. ;)
toryx
264. alreadymadwithhealingtalk
R.fife @220
The Aes Sedai being unable to contain Rand's wound may be due more to the limitations of the healing weave they know. They can't heal a specific wound. Everything gets healed. And since they lack the power to remove the taint in Rand's wound. They couldn't do anything about it. Asha'man healing, on the other hand, can heal specific injuries and leave the overall health of the patient untouched. Also, having been a soldier, Damer may simply have been more familiar with the concept of imprisoning foreign agents. That's why he hit upon the idea of building a ward around the wound to contain the evils in it.
K F
265. TAmyrlinring1
thewindrose @262

Totally agree on the analysis of Egwene. She was a little immature, but who isn't at that age, but is coming along at a clip w-e-l-l beyond average.

I can believe that as a motivation for Lanfear--always just a little behind the two top dogs in the power and always wanting a little more. We haven't been shown anything yet that says that she had any "visible" push from the dark side to go a'boring, but whether there was or wasn't, I don't think she actually needed one. She was already after more power, so when an Overwhelming Dark One was suddenly in front of her with unlimited power (suddenly out of the itty bitty living space), I think she just said "more power, sign me up." She'd already lost LTT, so what did she have to lose--nothing, to gain--more power. I personally think she thought she'd be first in line for all the new power, literally, and therefore the most powerful. She got what she was looking for, but I think just not quite in the way she anticipated.
K F
266. TAmyrlinring1
Subwoofer @263

Thanks;-) I have kids, so he honestly did worry me with his approach, especially when I saw how easy it was to find him. I have seen too many nutjobs out there, and if I can find you with the information you put out there (and computer guru I am not), then what's going to happen when it is the nutjob looking because you didn't bother to be civil?

Not to mention, we all get too much in the way of unpleasantness from outside sources. This is supposed to be fun.
K F
267. TAmyrlinring1
subwoofer @263

Elvis & Hoffa? Hmm . . . maybe they know who killed Asmo? :-)
john massey
268. subwoofer
comment just went up in smoke...grrr... anyway just a thought, up until WWI, there was a high occurance of soldiers dying from infections. It is just good battle field triage to disinfect- or in Rand's case- ward a wound from spreading through the blood to the body and increasing the risk of death. Damar was using his noggin the way that some yellow shawled AS should of been in healing things that are "unable to be healed". Btw, I still think that super Ny, with her new found skills, should take another shot at Rand's wound. It has been said that anything short of death could be healed, so get on with it already.

@ TAmyrlinring1- you are welcome. I like to give credit where it is due.
James Jones
269. jamesedjones
255 Tammy

You can keep trying to convince yourself, but it's all BS at this point. What you did was give step-by-step instructions on how to find the kid. Most of the information was well known. It is very easy to find folks out there. So the only reason to do it (and then post it for the public) was to scare him.

As soon as we see him on the site again, and hear from him that he wasn't scared, I'll admit you didn't do any damage. But until both things happen... congratulations, you just terrorized an 18 year old. Hope you feel big and impressive.
Torie Atkinson
270. Torie
Tammy, James, and everyone else on this subject:

Drop it. Time to move on.
Tess Laird
271. thewindrose
I cannot remember if it was this thread or an earlier one, where there was discussion on how 'no one can walk so long in the dark, but can come back to the light'. Well jumping ahead (The Time Travel Talent) hasn't been discovered yet, to KoD - what about Alviarin?

'Talene must be found and brought back, of course. For punishmemt and execution, if she had simply panicked, and if she had not, if she had somehow found a way to betray her oaths...Alviarin clung to that hope while she commanded a close watch put on Yukiri and Doesine.'

Maybe a canidate? Although being the ring leader of the Black Ajah is not going to garner any sympathy from Egwene if that is the case.
K F
272. TAmyrlinring1
Subwoofer @268

Again, thanks. I think you're going to be waiting until after SG to see Nynaeve fix Rand up, if it's even possible then, but that gets us into the is there someone in there to die besides Rand argument, so I'll just leave that one alone for the moment. Can't wait for the next post from Leigh.
K F
274. TAmyrlinring1
thewindrose @271

Talene as a candidate to return to the light? Maybe. But, I assume she was a volunteer to the dark side, and not "turned" via 13 dreadlords & myrrs. If the light had the equivalent of myrrs, then they could "undo" the turning, but they don't. So, I'm left with why--does that mean that there is somehow another way to undo the turning of one to the dark?
Tess Laird
275. thewindrose
TAmyrlinring1 -
I mean Alviarin - "Alviarin clung to that hope"
The hope that Talene had somehow betrayed her oaths to the Dark One.
john massey
276. subwoofer
Can't find the quote but I remember Rand saying something to Ingtar about anybody walking in the Shadow can walk back in the light again. Or vice versa. There is a question of trust. Can you truly trust the fallen again? I haven't read the books, but in one of the HP movies, there was a teacher who was imprisoned but received clemency for narcing on other baddies.

And are we talking about the same Alviarin?I do remember her giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies. Makes me want to crowd into the bunker- Elaida or no.
Tess Laird
278. thewindrose
subwoofer - Yes same Alviarin. She may be just looking for a way to hide herself from everyone, Shadar, Meassana(sp), Black Ajah hunters. But what I quoted above is from KoD.
Edit -To bed for me - new post tomorrow!
toryx
280. Valan
Damn Torie, I'm sorry too. Did you just read all of these bloody posts to find that there is a war going on at Tor.com, and not the kind where you get the satisfaction of killing Trollocs? Damn.

Please, everyone, please I beg you in the future listen to Leigh and play nice in the comments!

Ok tirade over.

I didn't write down whoever originated these comments for lack of time, but, please, give yourself credit where credit is due.

The idea where LTT's soul was trapped in Dragonmount and the endowed upon Rand is uber cool, but doesn't work out because Artur Hawkwing's so bloody familiar with LTT/Rand in the Great Hunt, that he had to of been chillin in Tel'Aran'Rhoid.

I am in the camp that strongly disagrees that Travelling has a negative effect on the Pattern. A pin through fabric indeed.

Also, concerning the Pattern, I think (and this is pure speculation) that the Pattern is made of life/decisions that effect life and woven onto the Age Lace, which is the world. This explains how Tel'Aran'Rhiod is a reflection of the Pattern, and the portal stones transport into other Patterns, but it is still all part of of one thing - the Lace of Ages.
(Age Lace to the manager's office, Manager's office Lace of Ages)

And if you get that you are so automatically cool forever. If you don't - no worries, there shall be future chances.

And... Aviendha lost the virginity first. And Mat totally got it on in the stone.

That's all I got tonight. Peace (literally)
toryx
281. nar'bahadin
i love lanfear in this book....
toryx
282. Planeswalker
R.Fife@256

I may not agree with you in the ice cream part. Any guy would gladly give her anything she wants just because she's beautiful (including her father!). Although, she may be ugly when she was still a child. That would explain many things... You shouldn't have reenacted as Mat then, but as Meirin's dad. I know R.Fife loves hugs. :)

Seriously, back to topic. Any person, however evil they may be or how much her desire is for other things, is still capable of falling in love. hayyy, maybe i'm too optimistic...

oh, and guys? nobody ain't tryin to search for my profile... okay? i think im a suspected terrorist... *giggles* hehehe
Fred Kevin Abenis
283. Nivek
hey plainwalker what do you think bout the sweat tents of the aiel wise ones?kinda weird arent they....
toryx
284. Wolfmage
“I'd agree with you if it were miraculous. But it's not. Rand IS the Dragon Reborn. All that information, the knowledge, the experience of Lews Therin is contained within that soul.”
I’m not so confident as you in asserting that the soul has carriage of memory in WOT. I would be confidence that the soul is tied to channelling facility, as I believe RJ is on record about that. But it doesn’t affect my argument either way.

He's not pulling it out of nowhere. Rand's accessing it from within himself. He has the information available to him to have Lews Therin's voice and personal tics.”

I know all that. I'm not referring to Rand's uptake of LLT's knowledge, I'm talking about the voice. Under this theory the voice has that knowledge too. So I’m not suggesting the presence of real, accessible AoL memories is miraculous. That is of course assumed under both theories. My reference something miraculous was about my incredulity about what I find to be the implausible and gratuitous in the theory; that is, about Rand’s mental defences having originally reacted to some much fuller access to LTT's real memories, but then partitioning them off and creating a fictional personality construct within his head which has internalised all those memories, values and thought processes, to produce a constructive LTT.

Have you read Neuromancer? Well, under this theory, if we take seriously the real behaviour and independence of the voice, the voice must effectively be an emergent version of LTT which has somehow been created by Rand, equivilent to virtual personality matrix of the Dixie Flatline rom cassette - McCoy Pauley. That’s what I find miraculous – the too neat, perfect partitioning of the memories – the too perfect assimilation of it into a LTT construct-like entity, with such the convincingness and completeness to an outside observer, it radically separateness from Rand’s subjective experience. It is in a very real sense a disembodied and distinct entity.

To me it seems implausible for Rand to be doing because the voice is much more readily explained as a real voice than through this convoluted process.
toryx
285. HurinSmells
Wow... reading this thread is almost like reading WOT itself! I imagine lots of braid pulling, sniffing, arms being folded under breasts etc while these replies are being typed :)

Roxinos @ x
I'll weigh in only on one point. Your assupmtion that the study of the One Power in the AoL is equivalent to scientific study is a bit of a stretch. Just because something is studied doesn't make it scientific. Granted the One Power produces many and varied real world applications, but surely if study of the One Power was in any way scientific there would be written materials how to reproduce a weave (take one strand Fire, mix 2 strand Air, wait till golden brown and leave to cool for 30mins)?

It seems the only way to learn a weave is to either work it out yourself or to have someone show you (or if you're Rand, to have LTT simply step in take over). I don't believe there has been any mention of documentation related to learning specific weaves, either in the AoL or the Third Age. If this was possible "Learn to Channel in 21 days" would be every novices bible. Even if all written knowledge of weaving the One Power was destroyed in the Breaking, the Brown Ajah would have started writting it down again by now as they seemingly document everything else!
toryx
286. Digital_Eon
Okay, first off, a personal issue here: Can we please not refer to younger posters as "kid"? I recognize that they may be so to others here, because of the age difference, but on this message board, aren't we all equal? Referring to someone as a "kid", whether when speaking to them or not, reinforces that age gap and really doesn't make the other poster feel confident that they'll be taken seriously as an adult - even if you didn't mean it. As someone who is that age myself, I can say that I immediately felt hesitant about having revealed it in a previous post (not that anyone remembers, probably, since I'm hardly a prolific poster :P) for the future. No one (except subwoofer! :P) is calling anyone old grannies or young'uns or get-off-my-lawn-you-damn-kids!, so...

On the subject of the TP producing the Taint: I'm not convinced. They both come from the Dark One, but that's no reason to believe they're any more closely related. As Roxinas pointed out (I think? Maybe in a different way), the effects of TP addiction are very different from the taint... in fact, there's really no similarity at all, unlike what would be expected if the TP had created the taint. So until further evidence pops up...

Also, I agree with the notion that (again, until more evidence is produced, in future books, or... well, my reading skills aren't great, so most of my knowledge comes from discussions) saidin-created weaves are not necessarily flawed due to the taint. Then again, there's really no evidence for or against the idea.

(Has it ever been stated/implied by characters in WoT that the taint caused the deterioration of the Ways? As far as I can remember, the cause was unknown - and it could indeed be the speculated reason of "a parasite of a living thing". Not sure what I believe there.)

Callandor was created during the Breaking. I'm pretty sure it's special as a male sa'angreal in having that flaw. Was it speculation I read that said it was just... er, not important, I guess? Kinda rare for angreal to have been created after the counterstroke.

Definitely believe Rand is insane and LTT is the result. There's just too much evidence (to me) pointing to that conclusion - mostly in the form of Cadsuane's comments on insane men hearing voices and the correlation between LTT and Rand's emotions (which I won't state again because it's already been mentioned, above). None of the other characters with memories of previous or other lives report hearing a voice, much less talking to one - they just have the memories. And it's pretty clear Rand had those, too, from all the slips of the tongue he's been having in these current re-read chapters. He'd been having LTT leakage long before LTT actually appeared.

And anyway, why couldn't Rand have suffered effects of the taint? He may be the Dragon Reborn, but he's still human and (was) channelling the taint. The Light's Champion is hardly protected against all ills of the world simply by being the Light's Champion.

(Darn, I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative here. I just... disagree with a lot, that's all! Really! Just like so many Two Rivers... okay, Wheel of Time females!)

Finally, the reason weaves weren't written down in textbooks or whatever was probably because they're too complex... and three-dimensional. You couldn't draw a perfect picture, and who knows what problems could come of a failure. Written materials also couldn't describe that image properly. Maybe if the Age of Legends had holographic technology... :3
Alice Arneson
287. Wetlandernw
Digital Eon: Not to worry. We thrive on argument here. :) And you're right - I only remember how old you are because I was just scanning back through some stuff, and it surprised me all over again.
toryx
288. stylusmobilus
I've always thought the rings (and the mirror ter'angreal) were made specifically for the Aiel and, I guess, the Dragon Reborn, by the Aes Sedai with the Jenn. In fact, I agree with Rand's idle thought that perhaps the entire city was made for him.
j p
289. sps49
@267 TAmyrlinring1-

Asmodean, like Elvis, is alive. He is just hiding himself so well that even RJ was fooled.
Kurt Lorey
290. Shimrod
Just cause some character (no matter how knowledgable or experienced) says something, that doesn't make it true. Even if they aren't deliberately lying (yes, Semirhage - I'm talking about you).

That works for Callandor and for the idea that Rand is insane.

Ever think that Callandor was made that way because it was always intended that a man was not supposed to use it without being buffered by a woman? And, that said restriction was lost over time? That it is considered "flawed" is a value based assumption on the part of some of the characters.

Rand, sane or not? Who is to say? This hasn't happened before, so everybody is just guessing (Graendal, Semirhge, Cadsuane, et al). I can certainly see where they would all consider it insanity within their knowledge and experience, but that does not make it so.

Guessing without enough information? Hmm, hmm, that sounds awfully familiar to me for some reason. Oh yeah, some of my theories...lol.
Michael Catapano
291. hoping
RFife@236

Back @143 (just before the current 'vileness' ;) ),
I posted the definition of the Pattern from the glossary.

The Wheel of Time weaves the threads of human lives into the Pattern of an Age, often called simply the Pattern, which forms the substance of reality for that Age.



I would definitely like to hear more about what was discussed at the con re what actually constitutes the Pattern.
K F
292. TAmyrlinring1
Digital Eon @286

Since I'm the source of that remark, mea culpa. At that point, I was frustrated, but in truth have no problem with a younger poster, particularly one with good ideas. I've said multiple times what the problem was, and it was not youth or engaging in debate, or being "argumentative".

Enough already on that stuff. If you're young--great, we get a fresher less jaded perspective, and I'm definitely not a granny, so feel free to stay on the lawn ;-)

Back to your discussion, I have to agree with you that Rand is not immune to the taint. Otherwise, he would not feel it so profoundly every time he channels. And while I may agree, logically, that LTT manifesting as a voice is a product of madness, I have to still, illogically, root for him being separate so that he can willingly die at SG and let Rand be.
Richard Fife
293. R.Fife
If Lanfear knows about Callandor and its relative strength, seems to indicate that it was made during the AoL pre-breaking. Perhaps it was made during the War of Power itself, which might explain why she doesn't know its little "secret" of no buffer.

Hoping: I suck, honestly. I remember that there was the discussion, and that I (and Leigh, actually) enjoyed the idea of the "choices" being the pattern, but the other theories/speculations that came up therein are lost to my addled brain. To much braid-tugging, I guess. And sadly, Portalstones did not get that panel on tape, so no rewatch either. Phooy.

But, as to the glossary definition, that is amazingly vague. What exactly does that mean, that the "thread of human lives". Since the wheel is "of time", seems to make sense that it is the course of the life, and the way balefire works, it is the actions and decisions of the life that are the "thread". Yet, I somehow doubt that Rand is "punching a hole" in the decisions of lives, when what he is doing is more like space-folding a la Dune. That is the reason my personal theory is that the choices are overlaid on the raw "existence". After all, a rock has a thread too, and it "chooses" to just just sit right where it is until someone kicks it. But if the kicker is Balefired and the Rock ends back up where it started, then that implies the rock is affected by the pattern.

Perhaps the "physical" world is the thread itself, and the actions/choices of the souls/lives are the pattern the thread gets put into. I like that... After all, our bodies are made of the same stuff as the rock, so nothing "special" there except that we are directly influence by the soul's decisions, where the rock gets a secondary influence. Kind like wrapping Thread A around Thread B to move Thread B over some.
Philbert de Zwart
294. philbert
About Callandor: we know that it was created before the Strike at Shayol Ghul, from Rand's Rhuidean flashback tour.
"He shudders to see that on the table lies the banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, held down by a crystal sword; he wonders why the accursed thing had not been destroyed."

Apparently the proto-Aiel Jonai already knew that it was flawed.

The fact (if it is a fact) that Lanfear doesn't know that Callandor is flawed, may mean that it was created after the Opening of the Bore, as after that Mierin went over to the Dark Side.

Edit: 'that accursed thing' probably refers to the Dragon Banner, I realize now.
Kurt Lorey
295. Shimrod
The accursed thing for Jonai was the Dragon Banner, IMO.
john massey
296. subwoofer
@digital_eon286- *waving his cane* why back in my day... Mea culpa too. I happily jumped into the army at age 17 and did not look back. I figure if you are old enough to die for your country, you are an adult. And I said students and grammies, and office people...and stuff... With old age-*I'm okay once I've had my fiber* comes my bad memory.kumbaya...

Just spitballing about Callandor to change subjects. I do like what Shimrod had to say about it. It could be when Callandor was made it was designed to be used by man and women channeling together as that is how great things were done during AoL. hmmmmm.

About Cadsuane's comments to Rand about hearing voices is one of the signs of impending insanity... did she say that to get a rise out of him/ tie him to her? Can't find the exact quote but that is what I got from the text... she was dangling a carrot.
Michael Catapano
297. hoping
RFife@293
Yes, the definition is vague and narrow. It would seem to exclude all non human life threads, whatever a thread is, as well as inanimate objects. So you could balefire a mountain into the ether and if you didn't kill a human, then the pattern would be unaffected. That's the conclusion I would draw.
Why then would the pattern be affected if you balefire a darkhound? We have no evidence a darkhound has human characteristics. I'm not even sure they are carbon based life forms.
There's much about the Pattern that doesn't make sense to me, but I can say that about a bunch of things.
Agree with the space folding idea but I don't know how it fits into the threads concept either.
john massey
298. subwoofer
I was always under the impression that the threads were lives. Nothing more nothing less. When you balefire a life, you balefire a thread and that was how the Pattern was coming apart. Too many threads being burned out of the Pattern.
K F
299. TAmyrlinring1
hoping @297

maybe it's just things that are alive . . .
rocks, mountains, etc. no change--things with life (even the evil warped created kind, like twisting humans into trollocs and then myrrs, and twisting wolves into darkhounds) gets you a pattern change.

subwoofer @296

as for the flaw of Callandor--maybe it's not really a "flaw" per se. Do we really know for sure that all men's angreal/sa'angreal don't magnify the taint too? Maybe the flaw is that Callandor magnifies the taint into the channeler but that is only because it lets them handle the power on greater orders of magnitude instead of like Rand's smaller angreal.
Kurt Lorey
300. Shimrod
A weaver could explain the Pattern. subwoofer has it right. The integrity of the warp and woof of the Pattern was endangered when so many threads were burned out all at once.

The interesting argument is whether any particular thread touches all other threads that are affected by that particular thread. If so, then threads would have to be differing lengths, and the density of the Pattern would change across the breadth of the Age Lace. It would explain how burning out a Thread affected the Threads that life had touched. Moreso, in that the short term memory of that "touch" didn't seem to be deleted as well.
Michael Catapano
301. hoping
Tam and Sub

The definition says human lives so I wonder how darkhounds fit in. Trollocs I could buy.

sub
Kumbaya on meth
It's like the reverse of Carrie Underwood singing a Motley Crue song on AI. (yes, I watched)
toryx
302. Buster
RE Callandor and the buffer (or lack thereof)

I always got the impression that the buffer on angreals and the like was in place to stop the wielder drawing to much of the power and burning themselves out/killing themselves. I don`t know whether Callandors amplification of the taint is a side effect of that or a seperate, taint induced flaw, or if I´m just completely misreading the intent here or what...

Any ideas?
john massey
303. subwoofer
@ TAmyrlinring1- For the CK the access keys are the buffers. Interesting theory Buster... the thing I think of in that case is that man/woman, drawing in Saidin/Saidar without any angreals etc. can draw in too much and burn themselves out. So I do not know if it is a limiter or what because the same should apply if you draw in power with a tool.

I think Callandor does not amplify the taint, just that when you are taking in so much power there is that much more taint. And Callandor does not have a buffer for the taint, unlike other Sa'angreal.

@hoping- LOL! not on meth- they just need to be heard.;)

If wolves have lives and Threads as part of the Pattern and Darkhounds are Shadowbrothers then...
toryx
304. Buster
Subwoofer@303

While it is true that a person can burn themselves out unaided, according to PoD angreal buffer you against drawing to much:

"Now, don`t fear that whoever leads the circle," she (Nynaeve) shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, "can make you draw to much. This really is a great deal lika an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can`t be made to draw too much." (The Path Of Daggers; The Breaking Storm)

This also comes back to Callandor. Supposedly it can only be used safely in a circle with a woman leading. That supports my point about the flaw in Callandor since in a circle you can`t be made to draw to much, therefore the lack of a buffer is negated.
john massey
305. subwoofer
See? I learned a new thing today. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Good point Buster:)
James Jones
306. jamesedjones
304 Buster

That's Brilliant! Can't believe it's taken this long for me to read how someone else made the connection ('cause I could have gone forever without making that connection meself).
Jason Deshaies
307. darxbane
@ 154, even though it seems too far away to matter at this point;
I didn't say they had to know the destination well, just that they had to have some knowledge of it. A previous post had said that you didn't need to know your destination at all when Travelling. Also, I just read the scene in LoC where Rand takes the Ogier to Duopotamia, and it is mentioned there that placing a gateway exactly where you want it (like inside a room, for example) requires almost as much knowledge of where your going as where you are. In KoD, Logain actually has to see his destination in order to put it the gateway high enough above the deck of the Sea Folk ship to avoid slicing it with the Gateway.
Sean Banawnie
308. Seanie
@304 Buster : good explanation/theory , I like it.


Good to see a calmer mood around here today.
Looking forward to a good post ! Sleep well Leigh?
Our happiness is in your hands...... ; ))
toryx
309. alreadymadwithRandsissues
darxbane @407
This is more in relation to placing it accurately so as to avoid any obstacles from being damaged. If you don't care about damaging the scenery, a general idea of where it is in relation to your starting point would suffice.

Cadsuane trying to get a rise out of Rand? Probably just seeing how he would react. She's only lucky Rand did not react so violently. Though his reaction was spectacular enough.
I don't get Rand. He's accepted the burden. Ostensibly, he's accepted the possibility of dying, of going insane. But so far, he's extremely sensitive about the possibility of going mad. As if he wasn't mad already.

Re: Callandor
First view we have of it is from Rand's old ancestral memories. This was well within the Breaking, though, with madmen Jaric and Heindar closing in on Paaran Disen. The cursed thing could be a) the Dragon Banner b) the Sword, even without the sa'angreal properties c) the Sa'angreal itself. We can take our pick.
At this point, we have no actual proof that Callandor predated the Breaking. The fact that it had no buffer IMO points to the fact that it was made during the Breaking. As I mentioned before, it could be reflective of the general breakdown of knowledge. Or it could also be that with males going mad left and right, they would no longer dare trust any with assisting with the making of such a powerful device. Thus they no longer had the means to test it.
Or alternately, it was some subtle hint for men and women to cooperate.
James Jones
310. jamesedjones
309 AlreadyMadwithRandsPsycosis

I always thought Cadsuane was hoping for a violent reaction from Rand. We know she has an angreal. And there were strong indications from Setalle Anan that she's got a Ter'angreal that is like Mat's foxhead. Pushing Rand to an explosion would have made her message that she won't budge on certain things much simpler.

It gives me the feeling that the first time he channels at her, he will have his a$$ handed to him.
Sam Mickel
311. Samadai
Subwoofer,

the Quote from Cadsuane is, "If you want to find out what someone is made of, push him from a direction they aren't expecting." She quotes that when she is talking to Merana and Annoura after meeting Rand.

I always took that to mean she was just pushing him around and did not actually mean what she said about all male channelers hearing voices.
sandi vogel
312. sinfulcashew
re: burning threads:
"It would explain how burning out a Thread affected the Threads that life had touched. Moreso, in that the short term memory of that "touch" didn't seem to be deleted as well."

Not sure if you mean forgetting the burned out thread-person.
I wouldn't think that it would delete memories?
What that 'thread' had been or done previously should remain.
I would think that whatever was done a few moments or hours before, could be burnt out, but not the whole of them.

Perhaps I have misunderstood something?
Jason Deshaies
313. darxbane
Roxinos,
While I agree with much of what you have posted, you are dead wrong about the taint not effecting weaves, and there are two GLARING examples.
1. The WAYs, which eventually became befouled because they were created with TAINTED Saidin.
2. If all the taint was absorbed by the channeler, Rand would have absorbed the entire taint into himself instead of depositing it in Shadar Logoth when he cleansed Saidin.
Also, whether the taint is a residue of the "True" Power or not is irrelelvant, as the DO's essence is Destruction, so anything the taint touches would be affected by it. I still don't think Joe's theory is correct, as the amount of male Travelling done since the AOL has been very small, and wouldn't have the time to really effect anything. The Bowl of Winds, however, used Saidin, a very large amount of Saidin. This could have caused a negative affect on the pattern. Since there is no mention of pattern chaos during the war of power, where the bore was completey open for many years, then we can assume that something else has caused this new effect. This leaves the possibility of tainted Saidin traveling as a viable hypothesis, certainly not worthy of you striking him down so hard.
Torie Atkinson
314. Torie
@ 313 darxbane

Moderator warning: Learn to disagree nicely, and quickly. That kind of name-calling and personal attack is utterly uncalled for and it won't be tolerated on Tor.com.
toryx
315. alreadymadwithcadspushing
I doubt it will go too badly for Rand. By this time, he's faced off with several of the Forsaken. Besides such a battle would surely attract the attention of LTT. And Cadsuane isn't as spry as she used to be. She isn't strong enough to contain him anyway. A draw, most likely. With the Sun Palace in ruins around them.
Andrew J
316. Waitingforthenextpost
@309 Alreadymadwithmath


Just went back to double check,

To find out the actuall time between the strike and the scene with Callandor there is some evidence.

At age 16 Cumin learn of the Strike at SG.

Some time passes (Unknown amount of time but since he doesn't channel we can assume something aproaching a normal lifespan, I would guess about 10 more years)

Cumin fathers Jonai

Jonai is 63 and sees the sword.

So really somewhere between 64 years and ??? but probibly mot more then 80 years.

Pleanty of time to create a flawed sword.

My other thought is that in a culture that treats sword play as a dance and has no violence, ie pre the bore. Why would you create a giant sa'sngreal in the shape of a sword, seems hinky to me.

My guess is that Callandor was created during the war of power or at least after things got violent after the bore.

We see that the bore occured in Charn's lifetime at age 25 when he was about to get married.

Cumin claims that Charn is his fathers greatfather (Whatever that relation is) Maybe Great-Great Grandfather. so at 25 years per generation?

My math comes out to ~190 years between the bore and the scene with Callandor being the upper time frame for the possible age of Callandor. Lots of time.
Richard Fife
317. R.Fife
Anoo.. perhaps its been a while since I've read the Bowl scene, but where is it said that it accessed Saidin? It was used by a pure female circle. Again, might be foggy brained, but thought that was pure saidar.
Hugh Arai
318. HArai
alreadymad@309:

About Rand: I think he's so touchy about going mad _because_ he's accepted the burden. He knows the odds of succeeding are pretty damn poor if he's loopy before or during the Last Battle. He's convinced he's got to "hold on" till after, so he freaks out whenever he thinks he might not be making it. Sometimes I think every second line of the Prophecies of the Dragon should be "But you know.. no pressure man!".
Jason Deshaies
319. darxbane
Saidar seemed to be weaving around something invisible. I believe Elayne points out that it must be Saidin.
James Jones
320. jamesedjones
316. Waitingforthenextpost

Nice analysis.

313 Darxbane

Don't be knockin' the silly ideas (see my ham-sammich theory in part 4 of TSR). They are a lot more fun when someone tries really hard to give evidence (starts more discussing).
Hugh Arai
321. HArai
R.Fife@317: The description of the use of the bowl was consistent with the description of the other objects/weavings that used both saidar and saidin. The old "gaps where something should be but she couldn't see anything" bit...
Michael Catapano
322. hoping
The bowl drew saidin without prompting by the circle and was responsible for the saidin difficulties in Ebou Dar in tPoD.
I don't have the book with me but it is in enc-wot
Blake Engholm
323. UncrownedKing
Subby @ 298
The Godfather.....YES!! My favorite movie(s) of all time (well The first and second are my number 1 and 2)

Ladies and Gents:
I think that Roxinos has officially left us. *sniffle* Although he was young (I don't know how young didn't facebook stalk his page....Who was that? ha) he did bring a voice to our little chat room. A large, long winded, firey voice. And if nothing else he made us discuss things. I too am young and I......well no I didn't agree with anything and really didn't read 1/3 of his comments, because I am at work and do not have multiple hours and large amounts of caffeine that would be needed to venture through his volumes of postage.

Alas, *cheers* to a lost brother.

O and before I forget....*Twitch*
Jason Deshaies
324. darxbane
That's just it, though, I wasn't knocking anyone's ideas, I was actually defending a theory (one I don't agree with besides). Apparently, my wording was thoroughly misinterpreted.
Andrew J
325. Waitingforthenextpost
@313 darxbane

That is not how I remember #1

I thought I remember that the ways could be grown with a ter'angreal (Loial says something about talesman of growing) created by men that the Ogier had if they found additional Steddings. So wouldn't the ter'angreal be using tainted power to grow the ways because there were no men left to grow the ways after a while.

I know that the darkness was consitered having come from the taint so any new growings would get infected. (trying to remember, possible a book signing with RJ)

But the implication is that use of a ter'angreal could be used in specific circumstances to achieve effects cleanly by not touching the taint.

I find it hard to believe that the AS of the AOL wouldn't have created a filter ter'angreal to fill a well, like the Eye of the World rather then killing themselves to fill it.

Interesting thoughts.

As far as #2 I always thought that the female half was acting as a oil water seperator skimming off the taint prior to it getting to rand and the taint sent to SL. I may be totally wrong there it has been a long time since I last read that scene.
Joseph Daly
326. Joed1414
RE:Moderater warnig at 314
Roxinos' comments were much more hostile than Darxsbane's really. Not to mention he wrote a book and a half. Darxbane was just providing evidence to my Theory.
Torie Atkinson
327. Torie
@ 326

I missed the first post, but it applies to everyone. Be nice.
Andrew J
328. Waitingforthenextpost
@325 Myself

Oops I misread darxbane, I was thinking the cleansing not the bowl of winds

But the theory is the same as with #1 if the bowl of winds was using saidin was it clean saidin or tainted saidin.


Jamesedjones

Thank you for the compliment. I don't post much but I love the details and always get drawn into the timing that RJ layed out. Its the science brain I have along with lots of post it notes.

And I just reread that scene and could remember it.
john massey
329. subwoofer
@ Samadai- thanks- I seem to remember Cadsuane giving me an object lesson in how to manipulate men. I tend to glance over the epic posts myself unless I see type that jumps out at me(my version of speed reading)or somebody mentions bunny slippers.

I am a dinosaur in the sense that I am not on Facebook. My wife is on it enough for the both of us. Heck, for everyone in this discussion. Between active pursuits, blogging on this, F1 and hunting, I have chosen to opt out of Facebook.

darxbane- happens to me all the time- that was my humble pie reference and someone keeps messin' with my meds. I seem to spend at least one post per Leigh post saying I'm sorry. To err is human...
Jason Deshaies
330. darxbane
Understood. Thanks for the backup though, Joe.

@325
The Talisman of regrowing only grows a new Waygate, it does not recreate the Ways. That was done by male channelers as a thanks for allowing them to use the Stedding to prevent madness. In the end, none of them could avoid channeling anymore than the Ogier could avoid the Stedding for too long, but they were still greatful (I believe Loial explains this in EotW). As for the Cleansing, Rand's POV continually mentions the Taint "rushing through him" as he channels the weaves together that squeeze the taint into Shadar Logoth.

During the AOL, there was no taint, and it appears that the world was pretty screwed up even before the backlash of the 100; much was lost already. They may not have had time to study and create a filter (if it was even possible). This has been something I always thought would be awesome. I envisioned the Isle of Madmen residents discovering something like this, but all the men pretending to be insane so they would be left alone. Imagine a whole army of male channelers appearing to support Rand now that Saidin is clean (also how ticked everyone would be when they found out a filter Ter'Angreal was available all this time).
toryx
331. alreadymadwithdoingmath
Waitingforthenextpost @316
The only flaw I can see with your math is arbitrarily assigning 25 as the length of each generation. 25 is commonly used in our reality because in our reality, most have kids by 25.
We have no evidence it would be the same in the AoL. Jonai is at the prime of his life and he is 63. In modern times this would be the equivalent of 30-40. If lives are longer, then this would also directly affect the lengths of each generation. 40-50 would be a closer guess IMHO.
James Jones
332. jamesedjones
330 Darxbane

Interesting thought, but wouldn't the taint have to go... somewhere? When Rand cleansed it, we had a big ball of taint that destroyed Shadar Logoth. When the Eye of the World was created, all we know is that the process killed everyone working on it. Would the isle of madmen theory leave another blob of taint waiting?

Love the possibilities open with the land of madmen. That's the kind of reputation that leaves me thinking that the sea folk did not set up periodic information trips.

"Okay, did the last ship we sent down there come back?"

"Nope."

Writing in logbook, "Stil - not - safe. Good to know. Schedule the next trip in another decade."
Andrew J
333. Waitingforthenextpost
@330


Hmmm rushing thru him, that does seem to indicate something other then a body filter.

Oh well I wasn't sure if I liked Roxy's argument about that anyway. Or we are all just getting a bit picky.

One question about the Waygates then. If the Talisman only grows the waygate, then what does the waygate attach to?

What I am asking is that when you enter a waygate there is a short section that runs to the first platform. I understand that the lines and the guidings could have been installed or carved after the fact, but are there dead ends that go to no where off of each platform. There is somewhere a comment on when new steddings were found a new gate could be grown to attach the stedding to the ways Network indicating a place that there wasn't a route to.

Have always had this view of the subway, you enter, walk down a flight of stairs to get to the platform, get on the train and then leave. What I am imagining you are saying is that the Growing will only grow the doors at the top of the stairways as you leave. Are there extra stairs that go no where or does the Growing also attach the doors and a set of stairs to the platform.

did that make sence? I am trying to describe this in a way that gets what is in my head to a way that someone else can understand and I am not sure if I am doing a good job.
Andrew J
334. Waitingforthenextpost
@331

Yes I was thiking of that as well.

So you have at 50 years per generation 350 years by my math then.

What is the generally accepted time frame for the breaking and the fallout according to the FAQ et al.?

That is allso assuming I correctly guess what a great father is.
Jason Deshaies
335. darxbane
@333, it does make sense. There would have to be an additional "connection" piece that the Talisman would also create.

With the taint - if there was a way to block it, a la the big black lines attached to foresaken, I would imagine the taint would just return to the reservoir of Saidin in the universe. It makes you realize that Rand may have had to channel every particle of Saidin in the universe (possibly more than once)into shadar logoth. He basically wrung the taint out of the weaves of Saidin into Shadar Logoth, and the 2 evils canceled each other out (SHH! POSSIBLE FORESHADOWING).
Dru O'Higgins
336. bellman
Wacky theories

Is the corrupting of the Ways caused by the taint or by having one of the Ways in Shadar Logoth? Either way, some character should stick their head inside to see if things have changed. I think the information that the damaged Ways was caused by the taint came from Loial, and how would he know for sure?

Rand/LTT
Hearing voices is common with madness. So lets assume that the specific madness caused by the taint usually incorporates this symptom. Now Rand was showing access to information he shouldn't have had much as Mat was, and to roughly the same degree. Then he went inside Tel'aran'rhiod in his physical body, which the Wise ones say is a BAD idea, you can lose part of yourself. Maybe losing part of yourself happens because a past personality can imprint itself into your brain. So the personality of LTT actually exists, but there is only one soul.

At the end of the series the Dark One will die, perhaps by creating a stedding over the Bore. And Padan Fain finds himself buried alive in a different location, doomed to become the Dark one, as he always was.
Jason Deshaies
337. darxbane
We can't be sure, really. Either way, the Ways would still be corrupted. The damage has been done.

Now, super crazy theory: What if Cadsuane asks if Rand hears voices because she recognizes her own condition? Cadsuane knows far too much for just being a worldly or well-read Aes Sedai. I think her past self has long since leaked in. It would certainly explain her knowledge and Ter'Angreal cache, and her sympathy for male channelers going mad could also come from her own descent into madness, for lack of a better phrase.
Don Barkauskas
338. bad_platypus
Re: Buster@304

Something else to consider is that a circle of two women and one man is the smallest mixed circle in which a woman can lead. That along with Cadsuane's specification that a woman would have to lead makes me to think that the answer is that it's not the buffer against overdrawing (which would be there in a two-person mixed circle) that protects, but simply that a woman needs to lead the circle to safely use Callandor.

Also, I've always been partial to the theory that Callandor was made during the War of Power for a "QRC (Quick Response Contract)" (as per John Novak on the WoT FAQ, section 2.6.1) and the flaw is simply a matter of its manufacture being rushed.
Brian Kaul
339. bkaul
Roxinos@164:
You may as well speculate on the nature of Bela's sex life as speculate on the nature of Traveling when your speculation has no grounding.

With some of the speculation on the other characters' sex lives, I'm almost surprised (though pleasantly so!) that we haven't seen a conversation about Bela's, too. ;)
Alice Arneson
340. Wetlandernw
323. UncrownedKing

Rox gave us his age up in 211, if you have the patience to scan through it. Among the youngest of us, yes. Not necessarily the youngest.

A large, long winded, firey voice.

Hah!
Luke M
341. lmelior
@Wetlandernw @ 216
I'd like to know what you were thinking with this: Explaining the male Forsaken in light of this could be the weak part though (recognizing the taint, how they freak out when Rand cuts their cords, etc.). I'm intrigued by the TP/taint theory and would like to know the potential problems so I can stew on them. :)


Yeah, I had a number of thoughts but I didn't want to try and fit them together just then.

Some of the male Forsaken have actually used the True Power, so they know what it feels like. Should they be able to recognize the taint as the True Power? They are protected from the taint possibly by the black cords, though, so perhaps they never actually come in contact with it when they channel. Should they still be afraid of the taint, as I believe they are when Rand cuts their cords? That last might be explained, Asmodean would be horrified, as he probably isn't allowed to channel the True Power, and wouldn't want to besides. Was Ishamael afraid? I know Rand cut the cord and then burned him at the end of tEotW, and he didn't like that. Perhaps he was only reacting to the burning. Those were the only two that suffered the cord cutting, if I recall correctly.

Here's another angle: Joed's earlier post makes perfect sense, the DO uses the True Power, so it follows that his counterstroke was probably made with it. But is the taint itself the True Power, or simply a result of the True Power? Could Demandred, for example, actually use the taint on top of saidin if he could get to it? If it is just a result, would it still cause the same kind of problems as the True Power?
Hugh Arai
342. HArai
lmelior@341: I suspect the taint is a result of the True Power the way a charred Trolloc is a result of saidin/saidar. Neither can be used to "power" anything. But that's just my take.
toryx
343. birgit
What I am imagining you are saying is that the Growing will only grow the doors at the top of the stairways as you leave. Are there extra stairs that go no where or does the Growing also attach the doors and a set of stairs to the platform.

I think you have to grow the stairs, too. Maybe the Talisman is used on an island that still has room for a new ramp to grow a line with a gate at the end like a new branch on a tree (the Ways are described as alive somewhere). You have to know where the stedding is to grow the Waygate at the right place, but it is done from within the Ways, not the location in Randland where the Waygate will open (like a Skimming gateway opening from Skimming Space).
Ed Dyer
344. HumbleReader
Waitingfor the nextpost@325
I thought I remember that the ways could be grown with a ter'angreal

Loyal talks about the "Talisman of Growing" that the Ogier Elders had, but also we have heard Avienda, while checking out Elayne's horde of objects of the Power in Caemlyn (KoD, I think, before she travels West with the Wise Ones) picks up one item "for growing something." It didn't use the Power, as I recall... Was this also a "Talisman of Growing" for the ways, or perhaps it is for making the Nym (Someshda's kind - the Green Man) ?

{Looney Theory} Or as a really wild idea, to grow aangreal or saangreal?

For the survey, my boss's boss asked me today when I was going to retire O_O ; married with 2 grown boys (or should I say men :-) ; BSc, took my first "programming course" 43.5 years ago, and spent the last 31 years in a Research Lab, watching electrons, ions, and computers (SEM, MassSpec, and Support tech respectively.)

My eldest introduced me to WOT in his first year of University, so that was probably 7 or 8 years ago, and I have read all the way through at least twice, and listened at least 4 or 5 times (all 190 odd hours each time).
toryx
345. RJFanAttic
Leigh, my one thought on your Rand/LTT theory... I buy the split personality/muliple personality aspect, with the memories, skills (drawing), etc. leaking through. But it doesn't make sense to me when applied to the scene in CoT(?) where LTT beats Rand to saidin, and starts channeling all these new tricks, which Rand had no clue about. You could argue that if the new channeling tricks are memories, Rand may have been subconciously aware of them, but never used/embraced them, but in times where his life is on the line (battle with Sammael), why not throw a bunch of twisting gateways out there on remote control and do some damage that way? Plus there's Min's viewing of two men, and one dies, making me think that LTT is not just a creation of Rand's damaged psyche, but an actual man (or personality anyway).

Thanks as always for the excellent work! Keep it coming!
toryx
347. AutomatedTeller
This is a long time after the fact... but didn't Moraine tell Lan in The Great Hunt that she arranged to have his bond pass to Myrelle?
Zachary D. Wall
348. zipadax
Re: Having to know your starting position better than your end position when Travelling. It makes perfect sense when you relate it to space travel of a great distance. Without knowing exactly where you are your ending position will be significantly different than if you just kinda guess at where you are whereas if you fudge the ending position you may be a little off, but generally in the the ballpark so to say. Screw up your original position then you bork your heading which has a cascading efffect where everything ends up wrong.

I know this comment is a little late to the game, but I'm just going through your excellent re-read (after reading TofM btw). Also, sorry if this was covered in the previous 348 comments lol
toryx
349. s'rEDIT
Well, you're not the last, by any means. Here I am, exactly 3 months behind you!

LEIGH . . . thank you so much! These rereads are marvelous. Maybe I'll catch up to you all before you finish KOD. I hope so.

btw, I agreed (above) with the question of civility. The easily misunderstood comment could just as easily been apologized for. Too bad we lost a prolific thinker/poster over such a minor issue.
toryx
350. yasiru89
I probably started loathing Egwene as a character around this latter chapter. The most annoying bit is that she never really learns anything from the would-be lessons that come her way later on.

On the counterintuitive point about Travelling, Rand explains to Egwene later that 'there's no space between one point and the other' or something in LoC. This, I believe, implies that what Rand does is make two points the same by parsing through another dimension. So as a starting point, he essentially needs to have a sense of the starting point along with a vague notion of destination (since destination is picked out in the act itself). This probably is a nod to Jordan's physics background, since Wormholes are believed to work in a similar fashion.

Also, I've yet to read a theory of personality as compelling as Freud's account.
john massey
351. subwoofer
@yasir- couple of things- first off, yeah, totally forgot about RJ's physics background, but fwiw, Rand also does his neet trick of "jumping" a short distance to a point he has memorized then going to a point where he wants and this helps him with the time it takes to memorize a place for a starting point.

Freud's theories... I dunno, much of what he says is based on some kind of sexual repression wanting to get out or acting out in ways that mimics your sexual tendancies- ie. oral fixations( bear in mind that I took university t@#$^ years ago so all this is recollection of Psych 104 from back in the day). But the best thing he ever said for me is:

"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization."

Not sure about the Egwene hating. Don't get me wrong, I have my issues with her too, but I think this is the start of actually writing in Egwene's ambitions. In ToM she stands toe to toe with Rand, as an equal. Egwene still has a hard time wrapping her head around Rand channeling, let alone him being the DR. Everything she is doing now is a reflection of her upbringing as a true TR girl putting a TR boy in his place.

Woof™.
Hugh Arai
352. HArai
subwoofer@351: But that is the annoying part. From here until ToM, she considers herself to have learned and grown enough to be competent all the way to being a true Amyrlin but continues to treat Rand like he hasn't learned a thing since the start of the series. In other words, a very smart woman is doing a fine job of being an idiot. And that's annoying! :)
toryx
353. yasiru89
Don't get me wrong, Egwene, along with Elayne and Nynaeve, are often quite competent in whatever they've ventured on to (eg- Egwene's rise to power as true Amyrlin among the rebels and later the Tower; Elayne's ascent to the Lion Throne). They're also the 'good guys' in that they fight the Shadow and clear evil forces with conviction. However, they aren't particularly pleasant people at least to begin with. We see Nynaeve in The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight has matured beyond this flaw, but in Elayne and Egwene it remains strong.
It perhaps comes down to a matter of seeing weakness in courtesy, but there it is.
john massey
354. subwoofer
Hmmmmm.... well, I don't want to get all carried away and start defending Egwene, that would go against everything I have said in following posts regarding ToM... and my gag reflex would kick in again. In saying that however, I do think that Egwene's maintaining her TR role is one of the things that keeps Rand grounded, the same way Min endears herself calling Rand "wool headed" and "sheepherder". As grating as it is for me to read, Egwene's approach to Rand reminds him that there are still people in the world that knew him back when and folks that are not just about sucking up to him like the sycophantic nobles capering around Rand.

Wetlander in a following post makes an excellent point- the TR people are sharpening their skills to help Rand. Mat got Moiraine, Perrin and Mat are bringing an army, Ny has discovered all sorts of healing and has helped with the cleansing and stuff, Egwene is going to bring the Tower to Rand.... something that previous Amyrlin's never did. I think that having a take charge TR girl at the head of the AS is what is going to have AS on the battlefield as opposed to sitting in a hall somewhere arguing about whether or not the Last Battle is actually here.

Woof™.
toryx
356. WouldbeBrownAjah
Since I’m reading this re-read after Towers of Midnight is out, I think it’s funny how many of Leigh’s theories are right (Rand/LLT) and wrong (Verin).
And yes, while I think the Tom/Moiraine love scene is a little odd, considering they’ve done almost nothing but think of each other for months, it’s believable. So Brandon pulled it off.
Since the first time I read these books Moiraine’s change in attitude surprised me, but when she tells the girls later on: “I remembered how to control saidar”, the change made total sense.
Mike Meyer
357. Meyer217
Okay well, I just started this series because my brother's best friend recommended it, and I have to say I am completely in love with the WOT. I started reading all the books but my library doesn't supply every one so I came here and found this blog and became addicted. I can't wait to see what else comes up in RandLand.

On a side note, as bad as balefire sounds from Moiraine's POV, I still think it is one of the coolest weapons thus far. And for some odd reason Rand is still my favorite character even if he continues to make me facepalm.

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