May 20 2009 2:34pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Shadow Rising, Part 21

Hello! ’Tis moi, your friendly neighborhood Wheel of Time recapper, with the absolute last final for true no I mean it installment of The Shadow Rising, in which we cover Chapters 57 & 58. Which are the last chapters. No, really. Scout’s honor!

Previous entries can be found here. Please note that there are rampant spoilers throughout for all the Wheel of Time novels currently published, so if you haven’t read, don’t read. I’m serious, y’all.

Scheduling note: There will be no WOT Re-read post on Friday, as I want a little prep time before getting started on the next book. However, I may—MAY—have something else up for you on Friday instead, so keep an eye out, ya heard me?

All righty then! So, look fondly for the last time on my least favorite of all the WOT covers (in which The Little Woman cooks for Random Archer Guy and his friend Eighties Sweatband Guy, who clearly fell through a time warp from a Richard Simmons workout tape onto the Oregon Trail, where he never got a chance to learn how to wear them old-fangled coats before they all died of dysentery) and click for The End of the Longest Book.

Chapter 57: A Breaking in the Three-fold Land

What Happens
Rand watches the approaching mountains as he rides toward Alcair Dal, surrounded by an honor guard of ten Maidens. He notes that Aviendha, who is striding along beside him as usual, refuses to take off the ivory bracelet he’d given her, but also hides it from view anytime she thinks the Maidens might be looking at it. Rand also thinks about how he had tried to suggest that another society besides the Maidens might provide his guard, and Adelin’s answer that chiefs are usually accompanied by a few members of their former society; Rand has no society, but his mother was a Maiden.

For countless years Maidens who would not give up the spear have given their babes for the Wise Ones to hand to other women, none knowing where the child went or even whether boy or girl. Now a Maiden’s son has come back to us, and we know him. We will go to Alcair Dal for your honor, son of Shaiel, a Maiden of the Chumai Taardad.

When he had accepted (since it didn’t look to him as if Adelin would have taken kindly to a refusal), the ten Maidens there had repeated the “remember honor” ceremony with him, except this time instead of tea they gave him a drink called oosquai, which Rand soon realized is stronger than distilled brandy. He ended up thoroughly drunk, and remembers with embarrassment that the Maidens had eventually put him to bed, making a game out of it and tickling him until he was breathless with laughter. Aviendha had watched the whole thing with an expression like stone. They are followed by most of the spears of the Taardad clan, stretching back for two miles; Rand estimates their numbers at over fifteen thousand. Rand soon arrives at the fair set up for the meeting, which looks nearly empty, and sees five camps set up on the surrounding heights, all but one of which are equally low in population. Rhuarc approaches with his escort, Heirn with his escort, and forty more sept chiefs with their escorts, which together is a force larger than the one that took the Stone, and remarks that the large camp is Shaido, which makes Rand not the only one to break custom. Rand replies it’s as well he did, and asks Rhuarc if he could have forced his way into Alcair Dal at two-to-one odds. Rhuarc sees what he means, and grows angrier at Couladin. He asks if Rand expected this, and Rand replies, not exactly, but he couldn’t think of many other reasons Couladin would have been in such a tearing hurry to get here. Rhuarc seems uncertain of whether peace will be maintained with so many different clans here. Mat, Egwene, Lan, Moiraine, and the Wise Ones approach, and Lan eyes the Shaido, murmuring that that could be a problem. Moiraine is vastly displeased that she is not allowed to enter Alcair Dal, but Amys tells her that a clan chiefs’ meeting is men’s business, and that if Wise Ones insist on coming along, then they will have chiefs trying to attend their meetings. Melaine looks at Rand distrustfully, though, and Rand thinks that he had hardly slept since leaving Cold Rocks, and if they had spied on his dreams they would have only seen nightmares.

“Be careful, Rand al’Thor,” Bair said as if she had read his thoughts. “A tired man makes mistakes. You cannot afford mistakes today.” She pulled her shawl down around her thin shoulders, and her thin voice took on an almost angry note. “We cannot afford for you to make mistakes. The Aiel cannot afford it.”

Rand watches as Kadere’s wagon train arrives. Egwene pulls up next to him and tells him that he has not spoken to her since Cold Rocks, and reminds him that he does not fight alone, that others do battle for him too. He asks what she means, and Moiraine interjects that she fights for him, as does Egwene, plus many more he doesn’t even know about; his forcing the Pattern causes ripples in the lives of people he will never meet, and if he fails, it will all come apart. She asks that if she cannot go with him into Alcair Dal, for him to take Lan. Rand answers that Lan should stay with Moiraine, and Far Dareis Mai carries his honor, which displeases Moiraine but causes the Maidens to grin widely. Rand notes Isendre and Keille having a staring contest down among the wagons, and tells Egwene and everyone to be on their guard. Amys tries to tell him even the Shaido would not bother an Aes Sedai.

“Just be on your guard!” He had not meant to be that sharp. Even Rhuarc stared at him. They did not understand, and he dared not tell them. Not yet. Who would spring their trap first? He had to risk them as well as himself.

Mat suddenly asks if there’s a problem if he comes with Rand, rolling a coin across his fingers; surprised, Rand says he’d thought Mat would want to stay with the peddlers. Mat frowns and answers he doesn’t think it would be very easy to get out of here if Rand gets himself killed, then murmurs “Dovienya” to himself, which Rand’s heard Mat say before (Lan told Rand it means “luck” in the Old Tongue), and flips the coin, but fumbles the catch. The coin lands on edge and rolls all the way down to the wagons before finally falling over, where Isendre picks it up, staring back up the hill; Mat growls at Rand to quit doing that. Rand tells Mat he can come. The Taardad Aiel begin playing pipes, and the warriors sing, which they only do for battle songs and laments for the dead. The other Aiel and the peddlers watch in amazement, and the Taardad begin streaming into Alcair Dal. Rand, Rhuarc, Mat, and their escorts start down the hill, as everyone left behind watches, and Rand thinks that he can barely remember what it was like to have no one watching him. As they reach the fair, they are stopped by a delegation of Goshien. One of the men, whom Rhuarc greets as Mandhuin, answers Rhuarc’s query that besides the Goshien, the Shaarad, Chareen and Tomanelle are here, and Sevanna convinced the clan chiefs to go in a short while earlier. A woman next to him puts in that she heard He Who Comes With the Dawn has come out of Rhuidean, and that the Car’a’carn will be named today.

“Then someone spoke you a prophecy,” Rand said. He touched the dapple’s flanks with his heels; the delegation moved out of his way.

Dovienya,” Mat murmured. “Mia dovienya nesodhin soende.” Whatever it meant, it sounded a fervent wish.

The Taardad have come up on either said of the Shaido, who are all veiled, still singing, outnumbering the Shaido fifteen to one. Rhuarc raises a hand to his veil; Rand tells him not to, as they are not here to fight them, but Rhuarc takes it differently, calling out “no honor to the Shaido!” to the Taardad, who drop their veils. The Shaido blocking the entrance shift uneasily, and finally part slowly to let Rand’s delegation through; Rand sighs in relief. They pass through a gorge into the canyon of Alcair Dal, and the Taardad who had come in with them peel off to join their respective societies, which Rhuarc had said was an aid to keeping peace; there are perhaps three thousand Aiel present in the canyon. Only Rhuarc’s Red Shields and the Maidens stay with Rand’s party. Rand sees that Couladin is among the sept chiefs gathered at the far end of the canyon, and a golden-haired woman who must be Sevanna is on the ledge itself with the clan chiefs; her voice carries clearly as she demands that Couladin be given the right to speak. Han, clan chief of the Tomanelle, tells her that only one who has been to Rhuidean may speak here, and Couladin was refused. Couladin shouts something Rand can’t hear, and Erim of the Chareen shuts him up sharply. Bael, clan chief of the Goshien and the tallest man Rand’s ever seen, says that if this is all Sevanna wants to talk about he will go back to his tents; Jheran, clan chief of the Shaarad and Bael’s blood enemy, naturally disagrees and wants to talk about water. Sevanna calls them fools, and then they all notice the new arrivals, and fall silent to watch their approach. Rand thinks that Sevanna is pretty, but has a “greedy mouth”, too much cleavage showing, and a calculating air at odds with the clan chiefs around her. Rhuarc strides straight to the ledge and climbs up to join the other chiefs, and Rand hands his reins to Mat and steps directly from his saddle to the ledge. Han demands to know what Rhuarc is about, letting this wetlander stand like a chief, and Rhuarc asks did not the dreamwalkers tell Han about who Rhuarc was bringing? Han is in disbelief that this is who Melaine had meant, and Sevanna jumps in and says if Rand is allowed to speak, so is Couladin. Couladin immediately jumps up on the ledge, to a roar of protest from Han.

“It is time to be done with worn-out customs!” the fiery-haired Shaido shouted, stripping off his gray-and-brown coat. There was no need for shouting—his words echoed across the canyon—but he did not lower his voice. “I am He Who Comes With the Dawn!” Shoving shirtsleeves above his elbows, he thrust his fists into the air. Around each forearm wound a serpentine creature scaled in crimson and gold, glittering metallically, feet each tipped with five golden claws, golden-maned heads resting on the backs of his wrists. Two perfect Dragons. “I am the Car’a’carn!” The roar that came back was like thunder, Aiel leaping to their feet and shouting joyously.

The clan chiefs are stunned, even Rhuarc. Couladin begins shouting to the Aiel about the glory he will bring them with the conquest of the wetlanders as Rand stands there, thinking that of all the things he had thought might happen, this one had never occurred to him. He takes off his coat, pausing to stick the fat man angreal in the waistband of his breeches, and rolls up his sleeves, stepping up beside Couladin and raising his arms as well. It takes the cheering Aiel a few moments to notice, but soon the silence is total. Sevanna looks shocked, and Rand guesses Couladin had failed to inform her that Rand had the markings too, no doubt thinking he would have more time to establish himself before Rand arrived. Couladin knows what the silence means and shouts without looking at Rand to look at his clothes, he is a wetlander. Rand agrees, a wetlander, and then calmly gives his parents’ names, and reminds the Aiel that the prophecy of the Car’a’carn states that he will be born of the blood but raised elsewhere. Bael and the other clan chiefs nod reluctantly. Couladin sneers that the Prophecy is probably corrupted, and insists that Rand is a dupe set up by the Aes Sedai he has with him to “bind them with fakery”. Rhuarc steps up and declares that Couladin never went to Rhuidean, but Rand al’Thor did, and returned marked, and that Rhuarc witnessed this.

“And why did they refuse me?” Couladin snarled. “Because the Aes Sedai told them to! Rhuarc does not tell you that one of the Aes Sedai went down from Chaendaer with this wetlander! That is how he returned with the Dragons! By Aes Sedai witchery!”

He adds that he went to Rhuidean in secret, and only revealed himself now because that is proper for the Car’a’carn; Rand thinks it is very clever, lies flavored with just enough truth. The clan chiefs are displeased that Couladin claims to have gone to Rhuidean without permission, but Couladin retorts that his coming breaks the rules. Mat gestures to Rand to get in the saddle, but Rand knows that unless he can convince the Aiel Couladin is the fake, he was unlikely to get out of here alive.

“Rhuidean,” he said. The word seemed to fill the canyon. “You claim you went to Rhuidean, Couladin. What did you see there?”

Couladin snaps back that no one is to talk of what they see there, and the other chiefs try to say they should go apart to discuss it, but Rand ignores them and continues.

“I walked among glass columns beside Avendesora.” Rand spoke quietly, but the words carried everywhere. “I saw the history of the Aiel through my ancestors’ eyes. What did you see, Couladin? I am not afraid to speak. Are you?” The Shaido quivered with rage, face nearly the color of his fiery hair.

The chiefs are uneasy now, and Sevanna, sensing the change, quickly accuses Rhuarc of telling Rand about Rhuidean, but the other chiefs refuse to even consider the possibility of Rhuarc doing such a thing. Couladin shouts that he saw the Aiel’s glory, which he will return to them.

“I saw the Age of Legends,” Rand announced, “and the beginning of the Aiel journey to the Three-fold Land.” Rhuarc caught his arm, but he shook the clan chief off. This moment had been fated since the Aiel gathered before Rhuidean the first time. “I saw the Aiel when they were called the Da’shain Aiel, and followed the Way of the Leaf.”

A cacophony of denial goes up from the Aiel gathered in the canyon, even from the Taardad sept chiefs, and Adelin looks stricken. Couladin ignores Sevanna’s attempt to caution him, and shouts that Rand is a liar, that the Aiel have always been warriors. The Aiel roar approval of this, but the clan chiefs stand silent; oblivious, Couladin shakes his arms and plays to the crowd. Rhuarc asks Rand why, quietly; doesn’t he understand why they never speak of Rhuidean? To face the fact that Aiel were once as the despised Tuatha’an kills one in three who go to Rhuidean, and now it will spread everywhere. Rand answers sadly that he brings change and turmoil, not peace. After a moment, Rhuarc accepts this. Couladin is still basking in the adulation of the crowd, but Sevanna is staring at the chiefs and knows something is wrong. Finally, reluctantly, Bael declares that Rand al’Thor is the Car’a’carn, and the other chiefs follow suit. Couladin stares in disbelief a moment, then suddenly leaps down and grabs a spear from one of his men and hurls it straight at Rand. Adelin jumps in between and blocks the spear with her buckler, and instant pandemonium ensues, everyone shouting and shoving. Rand sees spears being used, knows he has to stop this somehow, and thinks of water. He seizes saidin and channels without really knowing what he is doing, and creates a rainstorm. Suddenly the rain is gone from the ledge, blocked by an expanding dome that is pushing the Aiel and Mat away with only him under it.

“You utter fool, playing games with these other fools! Wasting all my planning and effort!”

He turns to face Lanfear, and remarks that he didn’t expect her to reveal herself so soon, and asks where “he” is. Lanfear says she knew he would give himself away by coming into Rand’s dreams, but Rand cuts in and tells her he knew from the start, had expected it since the day he left Tear, and the trap is his, not hers. Rand asks again where he is, and Lanfear shoots back that if Rand knew, why did he chase him away with talk of what had to be done?

Scorn weighted the words like stones. “I brought Asmodean to teach you, but he was always one to leap to another plan if the first proved difficult. Now he thinks he has found something better for himself in Rhuidean. And he is off to take it while you stand here. Couladin, the Draghkar, all to hold your attention while he made sure. All my plans for nothing because you must be stubborn! Do you have any idea what effort it will take to convince him again? It must be him. Demandred or Rahvin or Sammael would kill you before teaching you to lift a hand unless they have you bound like a dog at heel!”

Rand thinks that Rhuidean was weeks away, but that he had done something, once... He asks why she let Asmodean go if she’s so interested in aiding Rand, and Lanfear reminds him, not openly. She starts trying to tempt him again with the two great sa’angreal, and stops at the look on his face as he remembers.

With the Power he folded reality, bent a small patch of what was. A door opened beneath the dome in front of him. That was the only way to describe it. An opening into darkness, into somewhere else.

Lanfear looks at it, and says it seems he does remember a few things, and wants to know what’s so important in Rhuidean. Rand answers, Asmodean. He hesitates, wishing he could make himself kill a woman who was only frowning at him, but then steps through the door and closes it behind him, knowing the making of her own would slow her down.

Kudos to Jordan, because of all the things I thought might happen at the big Aiel Show and Tell the first time around, the duplicate Dragons thing was a twist I genuinely never saw coming. I remember being seriously upset when Couladin stole Rand’s thunder; in fact I think I may have even yelled something along the lines of “Oh, you did NOT!” at the book when it happened. This is the kind of thing that is embarrassing when it happens in a Starbucks. Not that I know this from personal experience or anything.

But it was extremely dismaying, especially coming from a modern perspective (which I think Jordan definitely shared) that this is the kind of loss of PR momentum which can never be truly regained. The annoying thing about people is that the cliché “you never get a second chance to make a first impression” is really true, and this is borne out throughout the series in regard to the Aiel’s half-assed acceptance of Rand. Even crushing the Shaido at Cairhien in TFOH isn’t enough to overcome the initially instilled perception that Rand is not the Real True Chosen One, hence the damn ongoing “Shaido rebels” storyline which is still plaguing us through the end of KOD.

It’s a subconscious thing, which I think Jordan comments on specifically later, though I can’t recall the exact circumstances. Something where someone (Elayne?) thinks about how if people see you on a throne initially, they will always on some level think of you as a king or queen even if you get down and roll in the mud afterwards, but that unfortunately the same applies in reverse. And it’s damnably true.

This chapter is also the real start of the highly dysfunctional relationship between Rand and the Maidens, which I’ve always found by turns either incredibly amusing or incredibly irritating, depending on the situation. Rand, by the way, contributes just as much to the dysfunction as do the Maidens; to say it is a culture clash of epic proportions is probably understating the case. But hey, it does definitely make things interesting.

This particular one was amusing, in a kind of “Tickling? O...kay?” kind of way, which I actually find kind of irritating of myself. Because, you know, it is possible to have relatively intimate physical contact between people of mutually attracted genders (in whatever combination is relevant for the people involved) without it being necessarily sexual in context. But it doesn’t seem like I’m helped to realize this culturally. Lack of agape-style affectionate expression in American culture FTW!

Mat: this is one of the few times his presence seems really superfluous. I’m not sure why such a big deal was made of his coming along, only for him to do precisely nothing, other than mutter in the Old Tongue. I dunno, I guess not everyone has to be significant all the time, plotwise, but it seems like a minor failure of the Chekov’s Gun principle, in this case.

You know, it’s still unclear here whether Lanfear knew about the fake Dragon/Couladin ploy in advance or not. I vote not; I think she’s just quick on the uptake. Remember: crazy, but not stupid. And with much better dialogue than Dennis Hopper.

Chapter 58: The Traps of Rhuidean

What Happens
Rand is surrounded by blackness, with stone steps hanging seemingly in midair in front of him and stretching out of sight. He knows somehow that they will take him where he wants to go, but wonders if he created them or if they were here some other way.

With the thought, the gray stone under his foot began to fade, and all the others ahead shimmered. Desperately he concentrated on them, gray stone and real. Real! The shimmering stopped.

He starts to run up the stairs, taking them three at a time, and winces to see they have accommodated themselves to his stride and are now only appearing at three-step intervals. He forces himself to keep going, ignoring the growing pain in the wound in his side. Then he sees a man in a red coat ahead and to his left, standing on a silvery platform that glides forward. Rand knows this is Asmodean, and immediately stops running; the step he’s standing on starts moving forward in imitation of the Forsaken’s platform. Rand also sees what looks like black threads or wires running off from Asmodean, disappearing into the dark, and thinks he’s seen something like them before. Then Asmodean turns his head, and Rand sees to his surprise that the face is Jasin Natael’s; Rand had been sure it was Kadere. Asmodean sees him at the same moment, and sends a mile-high sheet of fire at Rand. Rand channels desperately and bursts it into shards, but Asmodean keeps sending one after another at him, and Rand angrily returns in kind at first, but then stops himself, because he does not want to kill the man, but catch him. Then the Forsaken’s platform stops and a door appears in front of it; Asmodean jumps through, and the door begins to close. Rand channels wildly, somehow stopping the door from closing, and his step stops dead, flinging him through the narrow opening, landing him outside of Rhuidean.

He took a step toward the wall of mist and stopped, lifting his left foot. His bootheel was sliced cleanly though. The tug he had felt; the doorway closing. He was dimly aware of shivering in spite of the heat. He had not known it was that dangerous. The Forsaken had all the knowledge. Asmodean would not escape him.

He runs into the fog surrounding the city, and as he reaches the inner edge flings himself down and rolls just barely in time to avoid the razor-edged rope trap Asmodean had left for him. He disperses the Power-made wires, and then channels again, pulling down buildings in front of the running Asmodean to keep him from getting to the central square. Asmodean sends lightning and fire at Rand as he clambers over the rubble, and Rand weaves himself a shield and keeps running. They continue back and forth in this manner, fighting to be the first to reach the square, wrecking the city in the process. Asmodean searches wildly through the square, and dives for a figurine of a man holding a crystal sphere aloft, but Rand reaches it at almost the same time, and they both grab it and reach through the statuette ter’angreal for access to one of the two largest sa’angreals ever made.

Vaguely Rand was aware of a great, half-buried statue in far-off Cairhien, of the huge crystal sphere in its hand, glowing like the sun, pulsing with the One Power. And the Power in him surged up like all the seas of the world in storm. With this surely he could do anything; surely he could even have Healed that dead child. The taint swelled as much, curling ’round every particle of him, seeping into every crevice, into his soul. He wanted to howl; he wanted to explode. Yet he only held half what that sa’angreal could deliver; the other half filled Asmodean.

They struggle back and forth, both physically and on an entirely different level:

Hammers of Power large enough to level mountains struck at Rand, and blades that could have pierced the earth’s heart; unseen pincers tried to tear his mind from his body, ripped at his very soul. Every scrap of Power he could draw went to hurl those attacks away. Any one could destroy him as if he had never been; he was sure of it.

Rand is nearing exhaustion, and knows Asmodean is tired too, but doesn’t know which of them will falter and break their impasse first. Then he feels the fat man angreal pressing against him where it is still stuck in his breeches, and wonders if it is even possible to draw on that and on the great sa’angreal at the same time. He can no longer see the black wires around Asmodean, but he visualizes where they were, and makes himself one with his target. He draws on the little fat man angreal and strikes at the cords.

Asmodean’s eyes went wide, and he screamed, a howl from the depths of horror; like a struck gong the Forsaken quivered. For an instant there seemed to be two of him, shivering away from each other; then they slid back together. He fell over on his back, arms flung out in his now dirty, tattered red coat, chest heaving; staring up at nothing, his dark eyes looked lost.

Rand loses saidin and rolls away, still clutching the access ter’angreal. He pushes himself to his knees, and sees that almost everything in the square – and the city – has been destroyed, including Avendesora, though the glass columns still stand. The fog surrounding Rhuidean is dissipating as well, and several of the mountains surrounding the city have collapsed or been visibly altered in shape. Asmodean starts to crawl toward him, eyes on the ter’angreal, but Rand raises a fist at him and tells him not to even think about it. Lanfear appears, and observes that she likes to see men fight, but this is ridiculous. She comments that Rand has destroyed whatever shield had been over the city, and crouches to examine the ter’angreal Rand is holding.

“So that is what he was after. I thought they were all destroyed. Only half remains of the single one I have seen; a fine trap for some unwary Aes Sedai.” She put out a hand, and he clutched the ter’angreal tighter. Her smile did not touch her eyes. “Keep it, certainly. To me it is no more than a figurine.”

She rises, pretending not to search for the figurine’s mate, and asks Rand what it was like to use it, and again tells him they could displace the Dark One himself with the two sa’angreal together. Asmodean crawls toward her and begs for help, and Lanfear sneers at him. Rand gets up and tells her tauntingly that he cut Asmodean off from their precious Dark One, which shocks Lanfear; she says surely he doesn’t think to bring him back to the Light, and Rand says no, but none of the other Forsaken will believe he hasn’t switched sides. He will not be taught by a man still linked to the Dark One, and now he has one who isn’t. He thanks her for the idea, though. Asmodean pleads with her that the others will believe her if she tells them he is still faithful, but she ignores him, staring at Rand.

For the first time ever that he had seen, she looked uncertain. “How much do you remember, Lews Therin? How much is you, and how much the shepherd? This is the sort of plan you might have devised when we—”

She cuts herself off, and answers Asmodean that he’s right, they will believe her – when she tells them Asmodean has thrown in with the other side. She tells Rand the shield she has put on the man will only allow him to channel a trickle, though it will dissipate in time, but it will be enough to teach him in the meantime. Asmodean screams and pleads with her again, calling her “Mierin”, and she snarls at him that her name is Lanfear, and begins pummeling him with the Power. Rand wearily draws on the fat man angreal again, and flings the Power between them in hopes of distracting her from killing Asmodean. Instead he causes a ten-foot high wall of fire that almost kills Asmodean. Lanfear rounds on him, infuriated, and Rand thinks she might kill him, but then she regains control of herself and purrs seductively at him. Rand asks if she hurt anyone back at Alcair Dal.

Her face never stopped smiling, but her caress changed, fingers suddenly poised as if to rip out his throat. “Such as who? I thought you had realized you did not love that little farmgirl. Or is it the Aiel jade?”

Rand says he just needs to use them for a while longer, trying to seem callous about it, and she laughs and says she remembers when he was too soft-hearted to use people, and tells him she does not kill without cause. She surveys the city again, and tells Rand to use Asmodean’s teaching well, for Sammael, Demandred, and Rahvin will be more eager than ever to destroy him once they learn he carries that ter’angreal. She seems to consider taking it from him again, but then opens a Power-wrought doorway to someplace full of white marble and silk hangings. Rand asks as she steps toward which one she had been, and she smiles coyly.

“Do you think I could stand to be fat, ugly Keille?” She ran hands down her rounded slimness for emphasis. “Isendre, now. Slim, beautiful Isendre. I thought if you suspected, you would suspect her. My pride is strong enough to support a little fat, when it must.”

She laughs at Isendre’s foolishness, and says that Rand might get back in time to save her from punishment for the thievery Lanfear framed her for. She marvels at the changes in the Aiel from her day, and tells Rand to learn well and quickly, and leaves. Rand takes a breath, and remembers the name “Mierin” from his trip through the glass columns; he wonders if she had known what she was doing when she bored the hole into the Dark One’s prison. Asmodean staggers to his feet, and informs Rand that he’s a lousy teacher, and that now he is fated to go mad just like any other saidin channeler. Rand totters off and searches the rubble in the square until he finds the female access ter’angreal, and considers destroying it.

“She was looking for that.” He had not realized Asmodean had followed him. Wavering, the man scrubbed at his bloody mouth. “She will rip your heart out to put her hands on it.”

“Or yours, for keeping it secret from her. She loves me.” Light help me. Like being loved by a rabid wolf!

He decides to keep it, as it might come in handy. He looks out over the altered valley and sees that the water formerly deep below the surface has been broken free, and is already forming a lake at one end of the valley. He thinks that people will come to live here, and maybe even rebuild Rhuidean; maybe he’ll even live to see it. He opens a doorway back to the dark place, and Asmodean sneers at the step he creates for them both to ride back on. As they travel, Rand says he can’t call him Asmodean; Asmodean shivers and tells him his real name was Joar Addam Nesossin, but Rand says he can’t call him that either. He decides they will stick with Jasin Natael, and he can be the gleeman to the Dragon Reborn. He tells Asmodean the first thing he will teach him is how to guard his dreams. They arrive back at Alcair Dal, where the Aiel have stopped fighting and are watching Moiraine, Egwene, Lan, and the Wise Ones, who have joined the chiefs on the ledge. Mat and the Maidens squat a little ways off. Everyone gapes as Rand and Natael step through onto the ledge, though Mat grins as well. Rand asks Adelin to go and tell the Aiel at the fair to stop beating Isendre; Adelin is startled, but sends another Maiden to do it. Moiraine demands to know where he’s been, and watches as he wraps his coat around the two statuettes, trying to keep them hidden.

He did not know if she even suspected what they were, but he intended to hide them as best he could from anyone. If he could not trust himself with Callandor’s power, how much less with the great sa’angreal? Not until he had learned more of how to control it, and himself.

He asks what happened here, ignoring Moiraine, and Rhuarc answers that Couladin and the Shaido have left, along with portions of the other clans except Taardad; all who remain support Rand. Rand thinks he is not done with the Shaido, and tells himself he has to be hard. Rand mounts his horse, motioning Asmodean to stand beside him, and tells those still on the ledge that it is a long and bloody road back, and it begins when the other clan chiefs get here.

“It began long ago,” Rhuarc said quietly. “The question is where and how it ends.”

Rand has no answer for that.

The inevitable climactic epic battle scene that is invariably a part of the Big Ass WOT Ending is very cool, as always. However, not to be a Debbie Downer or anything, but I can’t help noticing that it’s been four times in a row now that Rand has been thrown into a Colossal One Power Showdown without having a clue of what he’s doing, and basically just making shit up, channeling-wise, and pulling a win out of nowhere, when by all rights he should have been killed, well, four times over. At least this one doesn’t still include Ishamael somehow.

So I think the best thing that this particular Big Ass Ending provides us, therefore, is the hope of assurance that the next Big Ass Ending will not be more of the same, as presumably Rand will have actually learned something about channeling by the end of the next book. I mean, finally! (And we are right, mostly. But more on that as we get to it.)

This is also, as usual for a WOT Big Ass Ending, a scene which I would kill to see on film, and yet simultaneously can’t imagine that a film version would be able to do the esotericness of it justice, no matter how much money you spent on the FX. I’m just saying, any duke ‘em out single combat scene which also collapses mountains has got issues going in re: a coherent visual representation.

The chapter also nicely sets up a lot of what’s coming in The Fires of Heaven, in particular the Battle of Cairhien (to this day one of my favorite scenes in all WOT) and Lanfear’s nuclear meltdown of Crazy on the docks of same. Because remember: not stupid, but really fucking crazy. I mean, damn.

So, to put my initial confusion on the whole Lanfear/Asmodean plot to bed, it seems that Lanfear was definitely Keille, not Isendre, Lanfear did not know about the Couladin thing (or the Rhuidean thing) beforehand, and while Rand knew the two of them were skulking about, he totally fell for the Kadere/Isendre strawmen.

Oh, and Lanfear is a whole Planter’s factory of nuts. Well, I knew that last one already.

The tag prophecy here is also one of my favorites:

And when the blood was sprinkled on ground where nothing could grow, the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.

Which, of course, is a reference to the legend of Jason and the Argonauts, which is probably my favorite Greek myth ever, because I’m pretty sure it was the first of them I ever read. I think I was probably eight or nine, and I just loved the hell out of it, and was like “why isn’t there more stuff like this?”

And lo, I found out there was, and the rest, as they say, is history. Or mythology. Ba dum dum.

So here ends The Shadow Rising. While it is not my personal favorite of the books, at least going by which I’ve voluntarily reread the most, I do think it is probably the best written of the currently published novels, taken individually: elegant, tight plotting, well-woven and satisfactorily resolved plot threads, fabulous character development, and some of the most gripping (and moving) action sequences in the whole series. I’m glad this is where I chose to slow things down, as I think I was much better able to appreciate it as a result.

Good times, y’all. Good times.

Four down, and still alive! Aw, Yeah. Join me next time, Gadget, next time mrrrrrow, for the start of Book Five, The Fires of Heaven. Whoot!

1. david-2
Woo-hoo! My life is complete!
lanyo lanyo
2. lanyo
I love that Mat's coin thing keeps being messed up when he's around Rand, and instead of being all "ack! One power!" He just goes, "dammit Rand, knock that shit off"

And how cool and collected must you be to stand chatting w psycho exgf and then walk over to the great big prize she's hoping for and will most likely kill you over?!
3. alreadymadwhenasmogotpunkd
Does anybody realize that Rand caught up to Asmodean in mid-transit while Skimming? Something that Egwene thinks later is next to impossible? Hmph, goes to show what the Girls know. And Rand forces a gateway to stay open. Something he'll do again.
5. lmelior
There will be no WOT Re-read post on Friday, as I want a little prep time before getting started on the next book. However, I may—MAY—have something else up for you on Friday instead, so keep an eye out, ya heard me?
Oh now you've done it. Be prepared for hysteria combined with massive amounts of twitching if the Friday thing doesn't come true.

Personally I think Rand should've challenged Couladin to a one-on-one fight right then and there. Surely the Aiel have something like that, and surely Couladin would've accepted. I guess we see later on that Couladin being dead doesn't really stop the Shaido, but perhaps it would have stopped more of the Aiel from becoming Mera'din.
Alex Johns
6. almuric
Anybody taking bets on when the post numbering jumps to 10000? Or 20000?

Thanks for all the writing, Leigh. I'm guessing you're not looking forward to WH or CoT. A lot of summing up for a lot of nothing.
Luke M
7. lmelior
Here is what happens in the next book.

They answer my question:

Rand: Too bad no one killed Couladin when we had the chance.
Rhuarc: That would violate ji'e'toh.
Rand: ji'e'toh restricts you from stopping madmen warlords?
Rhuarc: Yes. The rule is madmen warlords can try to kill you, and everyone near you, and everyone else who isn't near you, and everyone they know, and everyone they thought was looking at them funny.
Rand: What does ji'e'toh let me do?
Rhuarc: You can mutter under your breath.
Rand: Shaido dogs.
Rhuarc: Now you're getting it.

And let's not forget what else is coming...You? No!
Maggie M
8. Eswana
Happy hump day, y'all.

Great recap Leigh. I love the end of this book. So much.

I'm with you on Couladin. Good Lord what a rat bastard. I think I hated him more than any male villain before or since- simply because he's not just Evil, he's Way Messed Up and Crazy, with a loyal band of equally crazy/blindly devoted followers. Kind of like the Aiel Masema. But Couladin wins the award for worst stupidhead because he married Sevanna, which means that even after he's dead, we now we have to deal with *her* for the next seven+ books. Geez.

However, I've often wondered why Rand didn't just do what the chiefs wanted; i.e., go discuss Rhuidean/etc alone with Couladin so they could all publicly declare for Rand. Would this have prevented the Bleakness? Why did Rand want to desperately to reveal the history? Did he know what sort of shockwaves it would cause?

I'm so pumped for tFoH, friends.

Be prepared for some serious twitching in the coming days. Dearest Pablo, please be nice to us. We'll try really hard not to break the site. Again.

alreadymad @3
Does anybody realize that Rand caught up to Asmodean in mid-transit while Skimming? Something that Egwene thinks later is next to impossible?
I noticed that too. So either 1) Egwene doesn't know everything there is to know about Skimming or 2) Men's and women's abilities in Skim-land are different.

I'm going with 2), because I believe Egwene was taught the Skimming theory by Moghedian, and while Moghedian has reason to hold back knowledge, it would be hard for her to lie while wearing the a'dam.

Also- Rand's momentary panic about the platform dissolving is a nice prelude to the Aiel Who Fell Off the Skimming Platform, coming up at the end of tFoH.
Anthony Williams
9. Galagros
I have to say, I am really anxious for this re-read to get into some of the later books, as I have a lot to say about them. I started my own re-read (my 3rd in total) right around the time that Leigh began The Shadow Rising and I am now about to finish Crossroads of Twilight. (When I first started I had the idea in my head to take it slow and stay in line with the re-read ... but that didn't quite work out).

Anyways, I guess what I am saying is that the first 4-5 books don't bring as much to the table to really discuss as books 6-11 do, IMO (at least not when you have all the knowledge gained from the later books).

Keep up the good work.
10. Rebecca Starr
Yay! We made it through the longest book. Great recap as always

Ch 57
The Rand oosqui thing has always just been hilarious to me. It reminds me of a story a friend once told me, how she decided that it was her solemn duty to do a shot with every single guest at her brother's wedding... and we're talking a big Indian wedding. You can guess how that turned out ha

Ch 58
not my favorite WoT ending, but still great, and the whole book ends with one of my all time fave quotes: "It began long ago. The question is where and how it ends." Rhuarc rocks my socks

the impossible steps right at the beginning of the chapter, Rand notes that he has seen the like before... I'm trying to remember which climax that was. TEotW? TGH?
11. Damplander
Well first post! Leigh you are awesome. Love the Reread, I had started re-reading not long before this and just finished the last book over the weekend so this is all kinds of wonderful.

This last scene is I believe the last one before the whole Lews Therin is a different "mind" sharing Rand's body thing becomes a big thing. Obviously LT is there in this last scene but it's not really of the speaking and trying to be in charge as it becomes in all the following books:(

This brings up the point from having just finished the last book of how many things(LT and Rand finally resolving their issues as an example) that I thought were resolved by book 11 and weren't:)

Particularly with the last book but the others leading up to it I was amazed at how many details I had managed to misremember! Just goes to show how the brain begins to fail with age... that and RJ's stories are insanely detailed. Good thing I've always loved a long detail rich story. Which is the main reason I finally decided to start reading the series in the mid 90's.

Anyhow just weighing in!
John Massey
12. subwoofer
Holy panicked mob. I dunno. Long weekend coming up in the States... maybe people will be out invading the country side. I get poopy wifi out in the country so I gave up and focused on more recreational activities...

This Rand guy and his crazy powers... wonders what his retention rate is like for his butt whoppin' he puts on Asmo... and that was one of the crazy images I took away from the books- the massive battle with power that was knocking over buildings. Reminds me of Eddings when Belgarath was fighting whatshispickle at the end in the City of Night.

Yay for Leigh!
Cool Beans!
13. WiseOne
Awesome and do-able visual scene: Alcair Dal.
Couladin shouting on the ledge and Rand standing beside him, both with their dragony arms showing. It's just cool to see the contrast between them, because I've always loved it when Rand talks quietly. It just seems more powerful than Couladin's yelling.
14. Blacktower
I have to commend your (you Leigh!) insight on various subjects outside of just the books, particularly in Monday's commentary on power and people's desire for it. You're using that noggin!Word.


In the Middle East
James Jones
15. jamesedjones
7 lmelior

Perfect description.

12 Subwoofer

Let's not forget, Eddings is the other author with the wolves playing important, good characters.

That scene when the Aiel appear in the collumns, chanting and ready to wipe out some really annoying Shaido dogs, was an amazingly cool way to point out how honorless the Shaido are. "Okay, we're ready to kill this group of clan chiefs with our warriors. Of course it's honorable! They could have brought more warriors if they really wanted to... Oh, crap."
Blake Engholm
16. UncrownedKing
Lads and Ladies, Prepare yourselves. No post Friday and only a chance for a post on Monday (it is a holiday) We very well might bring the site to a screeching hault.

Should be fun. LETS DO IT!!

Ending is made of awesome. I remember being blown away by Couly here. Never saw it coming intitally. And Lanfear is the definition of crazy.
Lannis .
17. Lannis
Almost forgot it's reread day! Yay! Thanks, Leigh!

TSR was the first book in the series for which I had to wait to be published, so it holds a special place in my heart, but the dock scene in tFoH is seared into my head, so I'm excited it's coming up.

I can remember feeling all giddy thinking of the abilities Rand'll soon have after being instructed by Asmodean... he really was handy to have around--too bad it didn't last long.

Have a great weekend, Leigh!
Andrew Lovsness
18. drewlovs
I'm still not getting why Asmo just didn't go and get the sa’angreal long before all this happened. There was obviously a shield on it, but Asmo knew exactly where to go, perhaps from Rand's speech? But that doesn't make sense either.

Can anyone shed some light here? It's making my brain ache...
19. toryx
Thus ends my favorite of the WoT books. But at least there are still some really good ones to come.

Someone already mentioned it in a comment to an earlier post, but one of my favorite moments is that instant when Rand just barely manages to grab the Ter'Angreal as Asmodean gets it. The writing provided such a perfect image in my mind. Just awesome.

Lanfear's Insanity: The thing about Lanfear is that she reminds me of women I've actually known. Even, Light help me, dated. The only difference between her and them is that she's ungodly powerful. Which, in retrospect, scares the crap out of me.

That's saying a lot because for the most part, the only other female character who remotely resembles anyone I know/known is Min. I've always wondered if that's just because I've never lived in the South.

Anyway, I love that Rand got Asmodean even if he turns out to be a crappy ass teacher. I also appreciated that he got those two sa'angreal keys. The one thing I've never understood though, is how they got from where TSR ended with them waiting for the other clan chiefs there in Alcair Dal to hanging out in ruined Rhuidean in the beginning of FoH.
Kurt Lorey
20. Shimrod
I'm confident that Asmodean was just fishing. He was pretty sure that Rhuidean was likely full of angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal.
21. toryx
drewlovs @18.

I'm still not getting why Asmo just didn't go and get the sa’angreal long before all this happened. There was obviously a shield on it, but Asmo knew exactly where to go, perhaps from Rand's speech? But that doesn't make sense either.

The fog had to have shielded Rhuidean, which is why it's death to any man to go there twice and any woman to go three times. So Asmodean had to find a way around that. Evidently Skimming works, but even with that he had to make sure that Rand wouldn't be able to follow until he had time to get the keystone.

Asmodean mainly learned about the things in Rhuidean from Mat. That must have been when he decided to go after the ter'angreal. The rest of it had to do with timing and circumnavigating the shield.
22. BigMac
Just had to say-- um... I hear ya on that cover art Leigh.

As always, awesome commentary!
Andrew Lovsness
23. drewlovs
I still don't buy it. He was using the whole "two chief of chiefs" thing to distract Rand while he went off to become badass. But judging from everything else that has happened up to this point, he had plenty of time. Like, instead of camping out with the Shaido, for instance... Rand wasn't even paying attention.

What told Asmo "NOW" was the time? Lanfear infers that he gave up on her plan and started using his own, but I can't help but think that Asmo had no intentions of becoming the enemy's teacher unless something extremely significant was in the offing; getting the sa’angreal works for me, but why wait until that particular moment??
24. swmdilla
Huh...for some reason i thought Rand left the access ter' angreal in Rhuidean. Where does he keep them untill he and Nyneave kick ass?
25. swmdilla
*access sa'angreal. sorry
26. Maimie
Just one question: why do magic fights always have to include fireballs or fire in some other form? For example, Verin throwing fireballs at Trollocs in the battle in Two Rivers... it takes ages (well, maybe a few minutes, but that's ages in a battle) to burn to death, and a burning Trolloc can still do much damage. Why not, say, fill their lungs with water, or change their body temperature by some 10-20 degrees, or severe their heads with a blade made of Air? Much more effective, less dangerous to the people around and probably easier.

Except that the answer is clear. No point in doing magic if you can't set up a proper show. Duh. But it still bugs me.
Don Johnson
27. Paracelsus
Once again, Crazy on the Docks (Lanfear, hilarious nickname btw) shows how disturbing her viewpoint of life is.

Lanfear completely suspects Rand of being in love with Aviendha. A few chapters ago Rand even told Lanfear Aviendha's name. Yet in TFOH, Crazy on the Docks still doesn't know who Aviendha is. Lanfear considers herself so far above the peons of this day and age that she can't even remember who Aviendha is despite the fact that she suspects Rand might be in love with her. What a nutjob!

"Her face never stopped smiling, but her caress changed, fingers suddenly poised as if to rip out his throat. 'Such as who? I thought you had realized you did not love that little farmgirl. Or is it the Aiel jade?'"
Andrew Lovsness
28. drewlovs
He has a fake wall somewhere; Lanfear see em over his shoulder in one scene.
Maggie M
29. Eswana
swmdilla @ 24

He hides them in his room at the Sun Palace after he conquers Cairhien, and until then they just chillax in his saddlebags, I think. Which is really unsafe, btw.

Feel free to correct me, anyone who's read tFoH more recently...
Veronica Jane
30. Zarine
No Friday post...wait for it ......wait for it...."Now that killed the goat." yeah I don't really have much to say about this ending. It is awesome but I am dreading the s l o w pace that is coming. Honestly this book could have been 2 and the next one not a damn thing happens except Lanfear's meltdown. I do love that scene, but a Whole book building up to it? really? have a good weekend everyone.
Helen Peters
31. Helen
swmdilla @ 25, you were right first time they're ter'angs, made as a key for the big sa'angs

The bit about the power struggle that i liked was the parallels with Nyn and Moggy. Both Nyn and Rand fighting, putting their all in and thinking 'when's the forsaken gonna finish this?' Then realising, hang on, I'm matching them. I also like the way they've got different ways of dealing with it, Nyn lobbing something at Moggy, Rand using the little angreal for a bit extra. It reflects how the white and black tower work, white tower train by hard sluggery and black by making them do everything with the power.

drewlovs Hopefully R.Fife will be around soon, he'll tell us why Asmo waited, and how Rand got through the mist a second time if it's meant to kill men going through twice. And no I'm not being sarcastic, he's answered all my questions so far.
32. Damplander
You were correct the first time Swmdilla:) The little copies are ter'angreal that allow contact with the big sa'angreal.

As to when Asmo decided to go after the ter'angreal I believe it's a combination of three things. One Asmo is the most like Moghie so he's not real brave.

This combined with needing to figure a way through the shield around Rhuidean and it taking time to be confident in what Mat told him of the items in Rhuidean.

Finally being a bit of a chicken he needed to be sure that both Rand's and Lanfear's attention would be somewhere else. After all even though he knows Rand isn't real knowlegable with the power he has to be afraid that he will feel him using the power when he skims for Rhuidean and/or that Lanfear will be watching him for her own purposes.

Thus the fake dragons on Couladin, they were as stated a distraction. In fact, a case can be made that he waited until Rand began to channel to make it rain before deciding to skim to Rhuidean so Lanfear and Rand would be less likely to notice him skimming.

Of course the last reason is it makes for a cool conflict to end the book on:)
Andrew Lovsness
33. drewlovs
30. Zarine
I disagree... the next 3 books move well for me, on a lot of levels, though by Crown of Swords, Rand is really getting a little whacky.

Path of Daggers is the start of the "Bad Times" for me, where you got to get your love where ya find it...
Alan Perry
34. stepper
Leigh, great wrap up thanks!

I think it was Moraine who told Rand about needing to be seen looking like a King the first time he meets someone....I believe it comes up when he meets with Dylin and the other nobles in Andor.

@uncrownedking, lol
Chris Maurer
35. grayfox
He actually hides them both in his room in Rhuidean, then moves them to the Sun Palace later. I think early on in tFoH he reveals his hidey hole.
Blake Engholm
36. UncrownedKing
In Cairhien, he has a fake wall wrapped in about as many weaves as he did around Callandor in the stone.

Once he learns traveling though he might actually move them around with him.

I agree that everything up to PoD is good. PoD WH and CoT all needed to be combined. Way too many POV's from chars I don't care about, and, as someone said on the last post, we don't need 10 pages describing Ewg walking around the camp.

But that aside, Im of the belief that KoD made up for the excess in detail of the three previous books. And lets face it, a lot of shit happened in those three books that is essential to the plot.
David Dudley
37. Warspoon
26. Maimie

The Asha'Man blow up heads.
AJ MacPherson
38. Mackey62
I think that shield was there from re-entering a second time until Rand "The Chief of Cheifs" came back.

Asmo is a coward, as is repeated told to us. He does not like confrontation. He thought Rand was on to him based on the conversation with Crazy Lady (side note, if I had time or knowledge, a link to Buckcherry's "Crazy B*&$h" would be really good theme song, not condoning, just saying. You know LTT has some good memories). So he thinks Rand will be distracted for a while, he can sneak off and become #1. "By the Power of Shayol Ghul, I have the Power"
Blake Engholm
39. UncrownedKing
The earth usually rolls around and explodes
And sniffing.
Dru O'Higgins
40. bellman
Btw, my local comicbook store has The Eye of the World #0 listed in today's stock.
Brian Kaul
41. bkaul
One thing seemed odd to me about this climax: why did Asmo Skim instead of Traveling? From the perspective of working with the plot, it allowed for Rand to catch up, but that aspect makes less sense to me than the timing of his departure.
42. crsandoval
Wow Leigh thanks for the Re-read
it helps me through the day that is for sure
i cannot wait for the discussion on who killed asmodean? crazy huh.
James Jones
43. jamesedjones
36 King o' Clubs (Moron Bat)

Sure a lot of stuff happened, but I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't be wailing and gnashing our teeth if it hadn't taken 2-3 years per book to get to a an entire novel of info-dump. Path of Daggers is what 'killed the goat' for me.

I'm of the opinion that the chiefs and wise ones stuck their heads together right after the climax and had a little conference that went like this:

"He says he broke Rhuidien."
"He what? Damnit. Let's go see how much we've got to fix."
Tony Zbaraschuk
44. tonyz
One of the impressive contrasts that flood this book: compare Rand vs Asmodean with Nynaeve vs. Moghedien. In both cases, we have a Duopotamian channeller battling one of the Forsaken -- but look at how different the duels are. Two women staring at each other and nothing else happening, versus two men in one of the Great Action Scenes of all time, with mountains exploding in the background as a mere consequence of them blocking each other's attacks. Chuck Norris has nothing on that.

Also probably has something to say about male methods of problem resolution vs. female methods of problem resolution. (I am very much looking forward to Leigh's analysis of Rand and the Maidens.)

And I love the description of Asmodean's reaction: "a howl from the depths of horror". Jordan does the big picture surpassingly well, but he also has a master's hand with the small touches and the little lines. "Far Dareis Mai carries my honor," is another of them.

Notice that Rand the shepherd, the guy experienced at long walks, manages to win the battle by out-physicalling Asmodean -- running faster, not getting tired quite as fast. Power-wise they're an absolute match.

Along the lines of "why not fight intelligently with the Power", one of the lines I truly love is coming up in a couple of books, where Bashere uses the MoronBat on Rand: "Why are you fooling around with that sword of flame when you can just blow them up??"
Tony Zbaraschuk
45. tonyz
>why did Asmo Skim instead of Traveling?

Because he hadn't been at Al'cair Dail long enough to "learn" it. (This is something we the readers don't learn for another couple of books, I think, once Egwene starts teaching the Aes Sedai the stuff she's extracted from Moghedien. But there are a lot of things where Jordan had the rules worked out a long way in advance.)

Though there are some flubs. For instance, in my copy of The Fires of Heaven, Avendesora survives the battle unharmed, but it starts the next book wrecked... when did that happen?
Michael Catapano
46. hoping
I think it was liandrin that said killing with the one power was very similar to healing which most channelers are weak with. So they have to use some type of kinetic energy (fireballs, land exploding) perhaps in a power they are most strong in. You would expect that would be air or water for women and earth and fire for men, but it doesn't always work that way, as we have seen. Blades of air severing heads would be cool as would razor lines of air ala asmo in rhuidean.
47. Roxinos

You have to remember that Asmodean is scared shitless of Lanfear. He was always planning on getting the access ter'angreal, but he couldn't very well do it while Lanfear was watching. And Lanfear was always watching. He needed a point where Lanfear would be focused on Rand almost entirely, and a point when Rand would be focused on the Aiel through his own machinations. That's why he set up the whole Couladin thing.

He didn't have any time because at any point, he was being watched by Lanfear or Rand. Even if Rand had no clue that Natael was the Chosen, Asmodean certainly did not know that. Asmodean is a cautious one. Unlike Moghedien, he's not cautious out of belief in planning and strategy. Rather, he's cautious out of fear. Fear of Rand, fear of Lanfear. He probably did not want to teach Rand at all, but until he could find a way to get Lanfear out of the picture, he had no choice. Remember, he's scared shitless of her.


For the Aes Sedai, you don't always see fireballs only. You see lightning, earthquakes, and fireballs. Three basic magic techniques. Presumably, fireballs are the easiest of the three.

You must remember that most Aes Sedai are not as strong as the great people we see like Rand, Logain, Taim, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lanfear, and Ishamael. They are relatively weak, and must, therefore, ration their power expenditure. Certainly they can't use many of the more powerful things like Arrows of Fire (flaming lines that shoot from your fingers) because they require a lot more of the Power than they are capable of. Many Aes Sedai cannot even open a gateway to Travel.

And then we come to this particular fight with Rand and Asmodean. Asmodean was not trying to kill Rand. Granted, he would have been quite happy if Rand had been struck by one of his traps or fireballs, but he's in a rush to get the ter'angreal before Rand can. Fireballs and the like are quick and easy. Their effects are more secondary to channeling. Instead of directly channeling at the person, you just form a fireball and throw.

As for why they don't do those things you specifically mentioned? Because they can't, for the most part. They're either in too much of a rush to weave these things (remember, the more complicated weaves take time, energy, and thought), or they are simply much less likely to work.

At one point, Rand is encased in a ball of water and is drowning. He then slices the weave and is onto chasing the Chosen down again (I don't remember which one; either Ishamael or Rahvin, maybe Sammael). The same is true for raising a person's body temperature. If you wanted to do it the simplest way, you must be actually in range to see the person you're going to channel at (which is already placing yourself in a pretty damned significant amount of danger) and you would have to channel a flow of Fire at them. That's easily deflected. Cutting a flow is simple work.

Severing their heads with a blade made of Air? Asmodean does this in the battle here. He sets up a series of razor-thin wires made of the Power. Rand sees them and dismantles them. At best, it slows the person down. They'd have to be pretty thick to actually get caught in the weave, though. Not to mention the setting up of the weave is a risk in itself because it slows the weaver down.

So no. The answer is not as clear as "no point in doing magic if you can't set up a proper show." Killing someone is not easy. Even with the Power. At least, not when the person you're trying to kill is able to channel as well.
Brian Kaul
48. bkaul
Just one question: why do magic fights always have to include fireballs or fire in some other form?
Except that the answer is clear. No point in doing magic if you can't set up a proper show.

I think this is a lot of it, when they're dealing with armies anyway - the show is actually as important as the direct effect, in many cases. There's something instinctively terrifying about uncontrollable fire that dropping dead from unseen causes doesn't quite match. The spectacle of the fire can cause a panic and break the opposing ranks, in a way that people just being killed in less terrifying manners does not. Of course, as Warspoon mentioned, the Asha'Man blow up people's heads, and both Rand and Moiraine in TEOTW send the earth itself in waves at the enemy. But fire can be a pretty powerful weapon on the morale front, too. As for using it in one-on-one fights, it's probably a little more dubious, but maybe the advantage of being able to start it going and then launch other attacks while it progresses could count for something.
49. westwasp
The up-and-coming hero wielding arcane power beyond his training is a classic trope (which I also find very annoying / facile). At least with Rand, there is the believable interpretation that when he unconsciously does something with saidin, it's because Lews Therin has the know-how. Of course later on he has to actually wrestle with LT over his consciousness.
Rich Bennett
50. Neuralnet
Thanks for another great reread Leigh!

Book four is still my favorite of the series. It just has a very epic, exciting, magical feel to me and yet is still very efficiently written and the aiel are great characters.
Michael Catapano
51. hoping
Do we know that it is the fog that prevents a man from going to rhuidean twice? Rand passed thru it for a second time with no trouble except for the asmo ambushes.
I assumed that no man could go thru the crystal columns twice.
Rhuidean can't be entered into via TAR which was why asmo was peering into the fog while in TAR.

This is an excerpt from my book right after rand cuts the invisible wires.
...but Avendosora, that had lived three thousand years in legend and truth, Avendesora blazed like a torch, and as for the rest of Rhuidean...

So if your edition doens't have that then it was an error that was corrected.

After rand fills the valley with water he muses that people will live there and tend avendesora, the last tree. Maybe he doesn't know it's toast.
52. Shmoo

I think the first time is when Lan tells Rand that first impressions mean so much... in the tGH - dressing him up and teaching him all the formality when he meets SS...
Luke M
53. lmelior
Dumai's Wells is like a cliff. A cliff...of...time. Um, yeah. The story just crawls along all the way until KoD.

Example 1:
"Let's use the Bowl of the Winds to fix the weather!"
...2,000 pages later...
"Weather's fixed! Let's pretend that never happened and that the Dark One won't just mess it up again."

Example 2:
"Hmmm, maybe I should cleanse saidin."
...5,000 pages later...
"It's clean!"

for page in theNext1000pages:
print('Wow, saidin is clean!')

Phew, my Python skillz are a bit rusty.
Jay Dauro
54. J.Dauro

I don't believe Sevanna ever married Coulidan. She was married to Suladric when he died, and speaks for the Shaido because of that marriage. She has made the two most probable replacements, Muradin and Couladin, think that she loves each of them (and hides this fact from the other), so that she will have influence when one of them qualifies by enetering Rhuidean.

But of course Muradin can't face it, and the Wise Ones won't let Coulidan try. So she still is the "leader".

Later we see that the Chiefs or Wise Ones (I can't find it right now) send someone to Rhuidean without asking her. She is trying to prevent anyone from going so she stays in charge.
55. Latecomer
Awesome ending! And Rhuarc totally rocks.

What's up on Friday Leigh - you doing a Verin on us?

As to the 'slow' books - the first time I read the books, it was incredibly frustrating to deal with the baths and dresses and general petty 'not al lot happening' stuff going on. Because I was after action, adventure, romance, yo!

But the next time I read through, it was equally incredible how little they bothered me. I knew what was coming, so was quite happy to soak up the 'character and world building' stuff.

Thinking about this, I am also convinced that the reason that I dislike Elayne so much isn't anything 'personal' - its usually because she's been the main focus of those bath, dresses, and unending Andor politicking for the throne that slows the story down for me.

Put another way - she's been so often in the bits I find boring or unexciting, that I started associating those qualities with her.

Deep thorts at 9.00 a.m! *wanders off to find a cup of tea*
David Dudley
56. Warspoon
41. bkaul

In order to Travel from one location to another, the person Traveling needs to know their starting location very well (hence the "Traveling Grounds" we see in later books). If Asmo was Skimming from the golden bowl, it stands to reason that he didn't know the ground well enough to Travel.
sandi vogel
57. sinfulcashew
24 swmdilla
I just read where Rand took the aforementioned items out of a special cubbyhole in his room, just before he and Nyn go to clean the Power.
I believe it is said that he had been keeping them hidden for some time.
(eswana has more particulars on the items.)
Helen Peters
58. Helen
Ok question, it's sort of relevant here. The Aiel gathered by society at Alcair Dal. Now I understand clans (I think of that as nationality) and societies (like ajahs), but what are septs? Are they the 'towns' within the 'nationalities', continuing with the analogy here, if so they'd correspond with the Holds?
Amar Ramraj
59. aiel1219
About why Rand didn't die when he entered Ruhidean the 2nd time, Here's my theory:
"Abruptly he threw himself down, rolling the last stride out of the fog onto gritty paving stones. Lying there, he stared up at three bright ribbons, silver-blue in the strange light of Rhuidean, stretching to left and right, floating in the air. When he stood, they were at the level of his waist, chest and neck, and so thin that they vanished edge-on. He could see how they had been made and hung, even if he did not understand it. Hard as steel, sharp enough to make a razor seem a feather. Had he run into those, they would have sliced through him. A tiny surge of the Power, and the silver ribbons fell in dust. Cold anger, outside the Void; inside, cold purpose, and the One Power."

I think the fog usually read if a man had been into Ruhidean b4 and if yes throw up the OP ribbon blades, but because Rand can use Saidin he is able to see them n counter it. This was what I thought when I first read the book.
Jay Dauro
60. J.Dauro
Helen @58

Yes, Septs are sub-groups of Clans. If you go to

Encyclopedia WOT

And look at Orginazations, Aiel, you get a good overview of all of the Clans, and the Septs in each clan.

The Societies go across clans.
61. cor-darei4life
As always a great job!

a question however, does anyone else notice that the index takes several days sometimes to update itself?
Deborah Jones
62. NanaD
I think of them as
The Aiel=USA
Societies= Military divisions(Army, Navy,etc.)
sandi vogel
63. sinfulcashew
(And as I continued reading youse guys comments, I see that others know more details than I remembered)
Go figure!
64. Latecomer
Aiel1219 - well spotted! thanks for that.

Helen - yes, think of clans as individual towns and Septs as Guilds or Clubs that can have members from different towns.
Michael Catapano
65. hoping
I never thought of it that way. Certainly is a possibility. We see other inanimate objects that are traps that can be srpung, like siuan's letter box and the hedgehog. A construct that can detect a soul and ambush it must be many times more complex. Asmo had sent power weaves before and after the razor wires so I assumed they were his as well.
Rand detected them so they must have been made of saidan and not saidar. I don't think there were any male AS when rhuidean was made. So I think the razor wires were asmo's.
66. alreadymadwhenthewastesawrain
Warspoon @37
I don't think it's just heads they blew up. One Seanchan officer noted that at least damane left pieces large enough to bury.

Warspoon @56
The various Travellers actually measure the time to know a starting point in hours. Less if they hold the Power while doing it.

hoping @51
The fog was the visible part of the ward protecting Rhuidean. As for why everybody seems to come and go, the ward was built by female Aes Sedai. Don't expect it to hold off one of the forsaken for long.
The tree was burned, but the damage wasn't fatal either.

Re: Couladin's ultimate warrior ideology
He looks stupid presenting it, but we must remember that roughly two thirds of the Aiel agree with him. This was the ratio of prospective clan chiefs dying in Rhuidean before. Those who, like Muradin, could not accept the truth. This ratio still holds true for the average Aiel spearfighters when Rand revealed the big secret. I'm not saying we should cut Couladin some slack. He's still stupid and the Shaido still are pests.
67. WOT Goldfish
Re: Ending. While it is a masive OP battle between Rand who doesn't know what he is doing and a Forsaken, there are some changes.

1) Ishy isn't there.
2) Nobody big died (or sort of died).
3) The gang is NOT all in the same place.

It is a modification of the theme Jordan has established, with more than a few hints that there will be more modifications.

It has been a REAL long time (ten years?) since I had read TSR and I have been amazed how tight and well constructed it is. I don't remember it that way. It just makes so much more sense after we see what else happens.
68. Freelancer
In Chapter 57, from Leigh's brilliant recap:
He asks what she means, and Moiraine interjects that she fights for him, as does Egwene, plus many more he doesn't even know about; his forcing the Pattern causes ripples in the lives of people he will negver meet, and if he fails, it will all come apart.

For me, this was Moiraine's low point. On my first reading, because of the Aes Sedai mystique built up in the first chapters of TEotW, I could accept Moiraine having reasons not to tell all, especially if she thought that by telling the ta'veren trio what she knew of prophecy, it would somehow negatively alter its course.

But by Alcair Dal, it's clear that Moiraine is guessing as often as not (thinking that they were the People of the Dragon at the Stone, until Rhuarc spoke up), yet even though she realizes this for herself, she is trying everything in her power to continue being the Hitchhiker's Guide to Being the Dragon Reborn, for how Rand should move through prophecy. She's even willing to beg, and to submit, in order to retain any sort of control. I can understand and forgive all that, up to this point.

Now, as if he doesn't have enough on his plate, as if that mountain isn't already more than he can handle, when he's about to put a spear through the ribs of Aiel traditional history, she calmly tells him that his forcing the Pattern (By who's interpretation, Blue? Yours, which has been quite consistently inconsistent regarding prophecy?) can basically tear the world apart.

Moiraine deserves the legendary status she's going to have, for the bold moves she (and Siuan) have taken to help save the world, and I liked her very much from the start. At this point of the story, I don't like her much, for trying to scare Rand into following her idea of the right path.

Also from this chapter, Rand shows again that he knows a Forsaken trap is set, and that he's known it since Tear. Now, Rand is a reasonably bright young man, and since accepting his role he took the wise action of learning as much as he could that might make a difference. But I have to ask here, how does he know what he knows? It would have been most unwise for this to be from a question he asked the Aelfinn, touching the Shadow as it does. But from the time he jammed Callandor back into the stone in the Heart of the Stone (does that make it heartstone?), we have gotten hints that he knows the game is afoot, and no hints how he knows. That said, it's totally sweet that nobody else has the faintest idea. Not Moiraine, not Lan, not Egwene, not the Wise Ones. He should have spent the entire trip to Alcair Dal humming "I've Got a Secret".

RE: Couladin

Yeah, Leigh, none of us saw that coming. An interesting side observation. Again quoting the recap:
Couladin sneers that the Prophecy is probably corrupted, and insists that Rand is a dupe set up by the Aes Sedai he has with him to "bind them with fakery".
This is definitely a case of cracking out of school. If two men are marked in a way only one should be, then one is a fake. You can almost call it a law that whoever hollers first that the other is a cheater, especially if he alludes to something about how the fakery is set in place, you have your guilty party. The innocent party would be busy wondering what's going on, how it happened, etc (and we get some of that in the Rand POV description of Couladin's "two perfect dragons"), while the perpetrator is busy telling everyone that the other guy is cheating.

Fortunately, Couladin isn't smart enough to know when to fold a losing hand, so he tells on himself quite thoroughly, to the point that clan chiefs who would perhaps prefer to deny Rand are forced to pronounce him. I very much enjoy Rhuarc asking Rand why, and getting the "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." answer from He Who Comes with the Dawn.

RE: Chekov's Gun

Leigh, I dig the quotes and examples given in the TV Tropes site, always a hoot, so I followed your link. Down the page, I find this:
Although many people consider the phrase "Chekhov's gun" to be the equivalent of foreshadowing, the statements the author made about it can be more properly interpreted as meaning "do not include any unnecessary elements in a story."
Also known as "The Law Of Conservation Of Detail." When used properly, this rule gives the item in question some degree of presence before being used, enough to prevent a potential Ass Pull that might jar and grate on the viewer. It can, however, turn out to be a Red Herring after all.
As a result of the success of franchises like Lost or Harry Potter, viewers and fans of Myth Arc-laden and/or carefully written shows and books have become accustomed to obsessing over minuscule details and looking out for Chekhov's Guns everywhere and anywhere...whether they actually exist or not. We call these Epileptic Trees and Wild Mass Guessing.

Hah! Pikers, upstarts, amateurs, n00bs! They haven't seen Wild Mass Guessing until they've seen us WoTFans with a theory to tear into.

Last thing, RE: the Maiden tickling scene.
But it doesn’t seem like I’m helped to realize this culturally. Lack of agape-style affectionate expression in American culture FTW!
It must be a regional thing, not American cultural thing. Where I grew up, ticking someone of the opposite gender to the edge of them having an accident, never had a too-intimate connotation. It was what it was. But teenagers in the realm I operated in hugged and smooched regularly, and in a totally platonic manner.
Brian Kaul
69. bkaul
alreadymad singing in the rain @66:
Warspoon @56
The various Travellers actually measure the time to know a starting point in hours. Less if they hold the Power while doing it.

I've not yet caught up in my re-read, so I'm not sure how long they were at Al'cair Dail before he Skimmed away ... I suppose maybe he didn't want to hold the power in order to learn the location quickly lest he draw attention to himself (since he's a coward), though it would seem he should know how to mask that, what with being one of the Forsaken and all.
John Fitzingo
70. Xandar01
@26. Maimie
@37. Warspoon

The Asha'Man blow up heads.

You know, I always think of the game lemmings when I read about Asha'Man blowing up heads.

"ooohhh Nooo"... POP!!

(I'd find a youtube link, but we are blocked at work.)
John Fitzingo
71. Xandar01
@44. tonyz

There is another crucial difference between Nynaeve v. Moggy and Rand v. Asmo. The fight over the most hugest Sa'angreal EVER! With out that, the effects of the male battle may have been more destructive than the chick fight,but they also would have been less intense (and less cool.)

Also the objective of the two battles were different; Asmo wanted Rand D-E-A-D, Moggy wanted a pet.
Alice Arneson
72. Wetlandernw
Hah! Pikers, upstarts, amateurs, n00bs! They haven't seen Wild Mass Guessing until they've seen us WoTFans with a theory to tear into.

Hah! indeed!
Kurt Lorey
73. Shimrod
Maybe, the permission of the Wise Ones got one into Rhuidean. Maybe they channeled at it, or something?

Otherwise, it's weird that Moiraine and Mat can enter, but Asmodean cannnot.

Maybe, it just took having Aiel blood or a name starting with the letter "M"?
Alice Arneson
74. Wetlandernw
Ummm... I don't have the oomph to go look it up, but I thought Asmodean was only poking around the edges (i.e. when Nynaeve saw him) because you can't get to Rhuidean in TAR. I didn't think he'd tried before in the "real world"; he just wanted to go when no one was looking so that he'd have plenty of time to look around undisturbed and pick up whatever he wanted. He probably wasn't in a huge hurry, so he carefully set up his distraction and waited until the trap was sprung, then figured he could go do his own thing at his leisure. By the time Rand or Lanfear noticed he was gone, he'd have found the goodies and they wouldn't be able to touch him.

Edit: Asmo wasn't in a HUGE hurry, but he obviously needed to go before Rand got his ducks lined up so that he didn't get to the good stuff first. As long as Rand was focused on getting acknowledged as Car'a'carn, Asmo had time, but once that was done...

Okay, now someone can post the quote where he tried to get in and couldn't... ;)
75. SRizea
Call me crazy, but I think Moiraine and Thom should have switched places in this book. I realize everybody's favorite AS had to go to Ruidean in order to save Rand from Senora Psychopath, but she really didn't do much else. In Tanchico now, she could have reined in some of the smackings-worthy happenings over there. Also, if Thom had been with Rand, Couladin would have quietly disappeared...
76. Belmont
@Leigh re:

"This is the kind of thing that is embarrassing when it happens in a Starbucks."

Was this time-period perhaps a kind of modern Age of Legends, a golden time before everyone in the universe had a cellphone/ipod/Bluetooth device and could not possibly turn it off for 5 seconds and not subject the rest of us to their neverending one-sided conversations? :=).

Ah, the good ol' days when people just thought you were talking to yourself and you were instantly labeled "kind of out there".
Chris Hall
77. bookwormchris
I do like the big reveal here, although I do get annoyed at all the fun chaos this created. Asmo has done more damage here than many of the other Forsaken, in my opinion. Can't wait until Mat kicks some fake dragon(s) butt.

As for TSR being the longest book, I didn't think it was until I went and looked up the word count again thanks to Wikipedia. It is somewhat odd that LOC has more pages (paperback edition)than TSR. Then again, I was looking at my books before sending them to the library (or, you know, carrying them in a box) and tFoH appears to be the thickest. Again, paperback. I joked with my roommate that if any book could stop a bullet, it would be The Fires of Heaven. Although if anyone actually shot my copy, I would have to kill them with a pair of sursa.

I haven't had a chance to look at the last Re-read since early Tuesday I think, but I was just thinking that we could screw the Cuendillar Cannon (which would be nice because ancient cannons has a pension for exploding) and instead make armo(u)r out of heartstone. Guaranteed to stop balefire or your money back! Not likely to actually happen, but shields and armor out of the stuff would be interesting (and mostly One Power proof, to some extent.)

Paperbacks are for reading (and more portable, plus I was poor(er) when I bought most of my books) and then nice hardcovers when they come out with the steamer trunk box set. Which is going to set me back a few hundred dollars at least, I guess. Although, I might buy the last three in hardcover because I don't think I can wait.
78. Tailspinner
I will only agree with Leigh on the cover art,

It seems like only TEOTW has a woman on it who doesn't look like she is serving, cooking, cleaning or just completely stunned.
79. Freelancer
However, I've often wondered why Rand didn't just do what the chiefs wanted; i.e., go discuss Rhuidean/etc alone with Couladin so they could all publicly declare for Rand. Would this have prevented the Bleakness? Why did Rand want to desperately to reveal the history? Did he know what sort of shockwaves it would cause?

You can't make an omelet...
Rand knew it would be very painful. He saw what Muradin did to himself because he couldn't face it. My guess is he chose to be up-front and honest, rather than continue the tradition of hiding their true history, to set himself apart. Remember, he doesn't want to be a clan chief, doesn't really want to be the chief of chiefs. He wants people that accept him as a person, and will follow him because they believe it is right, rather than from fear or schemes.

Rebecca Starr@10

the impossible steps right at the beginning of the chapter, Rand notes that he has seen the like before... I'm trying to remember which climax that was. TEotW? TGH?

The thing he's seen before isn't the steps, it's the black threads, the Dark One's Firewire Link for male channelers. He saw them on Ishamael.


KoD has Galina on the cover, playing the imperious Aes Sedai for all she's worth, but the guys are having none of it. Perrin is pointing at the map, trying to get her to tell where the Gai'shan are kept, Arganda is giving her the stink-eye, and Gaul is studiously NOT looking at her, but looming to the side just in case Perrin needs protection.
Rikka Cordin
80. Rikka
alas, TFoH is where the series begins to drag and by CoS, it's getting painful to read, though a few of my favorite scenes evar are in FoH and CoS... ah well.

I can't decide if I'm going to buy the last three in hardback or not. I did that with TG's Sword of Truth series and it is a nice way to end it. Of course, I also don't own from PoD to KoD so I still have some buying to do. stupid epic series....
81. SusanB
@58 Thanks for the question, I've been wondering the same thing myself.

@60 Thanks for the answer, that cleared everything up for me.
82. Valan
Yeah, Awesome ending for sure. As far as why Asmo didn't just Travel to Rhuidean, well the've been travelling to Alcair Dal and he hasn't had time to memorize the land yet to Travel, hence the Skimming instead.

As far as the later books go, I rememeber clearly being pissed when Mat didn't show up in A Path of Daggers but when I got to re-read them (without waiting 2-4 years between books) I really enjoyed aPoD and Winter's Heart is quite possibly my favorite novel of the series, though I like Lord of Chaos almost as much, maybe just.

Anyway, I guess the point being is there is a certain point in WoT that its stops being a series and becomes one big-ass book. This point is different for lots of people (for me it is Lord of Chaos.) The general side-effect of this is that we get pissed when things don't end, and its not going to until A Memory of Light part 3.
I'm reconciled to that now though, and its what I love about the series the most, its one HUGE novel
*end weird crazy tangent thing*
Luke M
83. lmelior
bookwormchris @77
Re: cuendillar armor
I also thought of that. If you do some googling, you can see some other people did too. People say it'll be too heavy or too stiff, but they could make thin cuendillar plates with holes for connecting them with other material. Rand could've used that many times now.

The general consensus is that it won't happen though.

Question: Can the Shadar Logoth dagger affect cuendillar?
84. Rebecca Starr
Nana@62, so I am of the Concord sept of the Massachusetts Aiel? i love it!
85. Wolfmage
Alreadymadwhenasmogotpunkd @ 3

“Does anybody realize that Rand caught up to Asmodean in mid-transit while Skimming? Something that Egwene thinks later is next to impossible? Hmph, goes to show what the Girls know. And Rand forces a gateway to stay open. Something he'll do again.”

I believe there is a FAQ entry on this which explores the discrepancy. But yes, it has always jumped out at me with each read-through. Assuming it isn’t an error, it may have just been a highly improbable ta’veren luck, or it may mean there are differences in the male version of Skimming. I don’t think we have much reason to doubt Egwene’s internal certainty at least where the female version is concerned. I have little doubt Salidar Aes Sedai would have been testing the new weaves pretty thoroughly in their travelling area.

If it was meant to be an improbably occurrence, there is still a major problem beyond difficulty though. Egwene suggests the weave must be in exactly the same spot – and that this is very difficult to pull off even if you see it for yourself – but that seems impossible here. Asmodean didn’t open a gateway directly from the Alcair Dal ledge, where we know Rand’s point of origin was. There was a massive Aiel presence there well before Rand arrived, and Asmo is still in transit when Rand sees him, so he must have left from a more discrete place - probably near or in his tent or a wagon. So I would suggest this points to either male / female differences or an error by RJ.

Still on the subject of Skimming, it is interesting to note that the destination gateway deposits both men outside the misty barrier, which neatly matches up with what we know about Rhuidean being shielded from TAR and the connection between Skimming space and the world of dreams.

Eswana @ 8.

“I'm with you on Couladin. Good Lord what a rat bastard. I think I hated him more than any male villain before or since- simply because he's not just Evil, he's Way Messed Up and Crazy, with a loyal band of equally crazy/blindly devoted followers.”

I agree. But at least Couladin is one person who you can easily imagine existing. In contrast, it’s always kind of bothered me somewhat that an entire Clan could be filled with douchebags – moreso than say societies or sub-elements. Shaido are a necessary obstacle and foil to Rand’s dominance – but I think they could have been made more multidimensional than the darkfriend Melindhra, a bunch of awful Wise Ones complicit in murder and the one character Rolan.

“However, I've often wondered why Rand didn't just do what the chiefs wanted; i.e., go discuss Rhuidean/etc alone with Couladin so they could all publicly declare for Rand. Would this have prevented the Bleakness? Why did Rand want to desperately to reveal the history? Did he know what sort of shockwaves it would cause?”

Well maybe if all things were equal that would be prudent. But by this stage Rand is very familiar with the Prophesy of the Dragon. There isn’t much ambiguity about “shatter them with the leaf” etc., once you’ve gone through the glass columns like Rand has. He knows that this moment has been foreordained for thousands of years. He deliberately adverts to it in his head before he makes the revelation.
86. Freelancer
Rolan isn't Shaido. He is only with them because it seemed to the mera'din the only place to go, when they chose not to accept Rand as HWCwtD.
craig thrift
87. gagecreedlives
“With this surely he could do anything; surely he could even have Healed that dead child.”

I thought that feeling came originally because of the flaw in Callandor. Does this imply that there is a flaw in the control statue as well?

“They struggle back and forth, both physically and on an entirely different level”

I now have an image in my hand of Rand and Asmo pushing and pulling the statue between them like a couple of kids. Its mine, no its mine, mum said you had to share.

Eswana @8

Its hard for Moggy to lie under the a'dam but not impossible. She teaches the girls the weave to detect men channelling but only gives them headaches. Also when she is released from captivity she did claim to have lied and held info back.

Rebecca Starr@10

Its EotW. Its when he chases down Ishy after hearing the mysterious caps voice.

tonyz @44

I think you may have mentally combined 2 different scenes. In the Stone Lanfear ask what he is doing with the sword of fire while he has callandor and can destroy them all with it and later Bashere in Andor asks why Rand is practicing the sword when he can channel. Then throws a knife at him to prove his point. Gotta love Saldeans.

lmelior @83

I wouldn’t of thought so but maybe. Im more curious to know what would happen if you stabbed a Gholam with it.
88. RobMRobM
Rebecca@84 - well met clansister! My sept is south in one of the W towns. Perhaps we'll meet at your local version of Alca'Dair, Kimballs (i.e., translated as "the Ice Cream Bowl"). Rob
89. Wolfmage
"Rolan isn't Shaido. He is only with them because it seemed to the mera'din the only place to go, when they chose not to accept Rand as HWCwtD. "

Fair enough. I only checked the encyclopaedia WOT quickly and it implied he was part of Sevana's Shaido, but I knew there was a definite possibility he was a brotherless. I've always found that whole saga and scenes of Faile's captivity agonisingly slow and boring, so I sometimes skip them making me less familiar with the details.

Still - it makes the Shaido's uniformity of idiocy even more conspicuous.
90. FSkornia
Hiya all, my first post here, but I've been following since the fourth or so section of TEotW and I've finally caught up on my own reread. Hence there are a lot of things I've been wanting to bring up myself.

One of the other things that really struck me while I was rereading this was the similarities between Rand's relationship with the Aiel and his future use of them, and Paul Maud'Dib Atreides' relationship with the Fremen in the Dune series. In both cases we have a group of people that have survived in situations of incredible hardship, and have honed themselves into a nearly unstoppable military force. Both the Fremen and the Aiel have prepared themselves for the coming of some prophecied individual (whether it be the Chief of Chiefs or the Messiah).

Going back to their origins, we see both people coming from a peaceful lifestyle as well, until prophecy forced them to take up the spear (or crysknife).

Then there are the similarities between the Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit - both are the origin of the prophecies for the appropriate desert folk, both are female only - until the Big Damn Hero shows up (Paul as the Kwitsaz Haderach and Rand as the Car'a'carn). Also in both cases (with Lady Jessica and Moiraine) the mentor of the main character acts almost as a renegade from their order.

I'm sure that with the amount of analysis that has gone into the WOT, this theory has been talked about to death, but it was something that struck me. One of the earlier posters mentioned that it was too bad there wasn't just a one on one fight between Rand and Couladin, I thought about the fight scene between Paul and the Fremen in Dune which cements his entry into the Fremen tribe. I can almost see Moiraine murmuring that Rand is used to fighting with a shield and his reactions times are slowed because of it.

Ah well, thanks for the reread Leigh, it's been great, especially finding a community of people that like to discuss all of this. Now onto TFoH, which for me starts the downward trend of this series. That is until Knife of Dreams, I remember when that came out I reread the series in preparation, felt the same ennui about the later books, but Knife of Dreams blew me away, reminding me of these earlier books. New Spring did the same thing when I read it - ah the simpler times when you don't have 2 dozen characters to keep track of.
91. Valan
@ Wolfmage

"A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Doesn't make it less true from coming from a movie (Men in Black)

People are idiots. It doesn't surprise me at all when they gather together with the rest of their kind. And its not 100% some Maidens come over to Rand's side I believe from the Shaido. So yeah an entire Clan in denial doesn't surprise me when their leader led them to that conclusion. Irritate, yes.
John Massey
92. subwoofer
Hey Leigh, I always thought of these books as excellent camping or fishing books. You don't want to weigh your pack down on a hike, but it definitely whiles away the time between nibbles. As for the Starbucks shout out, I'm not the biggest fan, but I did have a similar moment on the lake with a guy 50 yards away thinking I lost it-yelling at the fish- then having to give the "Sorry, I'm an idiot" wave.

I know aiel are prickly when it comes to Ji'e'toh, but would an assassination attempt be too much to ask for? Killing Couladin- dead. It could of saved a lot of grief and aggravation. As for Lanfear- I wonder what roots/herbs/ potions would be the equivalent to prozac back when. If ever somebody needed a prescription...

I also think what a waste it is that Rand does not spend more time discovering what the many ter'angreal could do. He already has the big one, it's a pity he find something that maybe kills shadow spawn en mass or hurls lightening a mile or anything that he could use instead of almost burning himself out or constantly wondering about the Forsaken. It's like having NOS in your car and not using it because you feel it gives you an unfair advantage?! Especially when the other guy would kill to have the same toys.
And Rand put his foot in it when he says Far Dareis Mai carries my honor. That follows him around forever...
j p
93. sps49

Testing *angreal is risky; AS have been stilled from the study.
94. Wolfmage
Valan @ 91.

Maybe. I'm not denying the propensity for collective stupidity in human history. But unless there is some kind of metaphysical voodoo going on, like with Mordeth and Shadar Logoth, I don't personally favour portrayal of such a tight uniformity of disreputable character within large groups, even supposing that uniformity is high in a clan social structure with hierarchy pulling them through rotten leadership. The saying that wven an Aiel Clan Chief is not a wetlander king - should cut both ways.

Whether it people from Taren Ferry, Aiel Septs or Clans - it seems a generalisations may be often true but always true is kind of a walking caricature.

I know some Shaido Maidens must be with Rand, but I don't know remember getting any numbers or feature time. Otherwise the Shaido are consistently portrayed as living up to their billing as 'sneaky', 'boastful', 'troublemakers', and their Wise Ones have, as near as I can tell, completely abandoned even a pretence of Ji'e'toh.
Amar Ramraj
95. aiel1219
@65. hoping
I actually thought of the fact that there were no male AS involved in Ruhidean. Then I came up with an explanation for how Rand was able to get rid of the ribbons even tho they were Saidar made.
It's just like he was able to stop Aviendhas gateway from closing when he followed her into Seanchan. H can affect Saidar made weaves when he can see their reults I think. Just the same way that males and females can battle eachother. So actually the ribbons need not have been Saidin for him to be able to dispel them.
I hope u'll reply on this... it's a real interesting topic don't u think?? :)
96. Freelancer

Aside from the fact that we now know that the Choeden Kal doesn't induce "wildness of the mind" as Callandor does, Rand's idea that he might have used it to resuscitate the girl in Tear just harks back to that Two Rivers sense of personal responsibility. Rand felt guilt for the girl (as he does for the death of any female) because he took too long to figure out how to kill the shadowspawn in the Stone. And having figured out such a remarkable attack weave, he figured he had a chance.

Then after feeling only half of the unimaginable power of the Choeden Kal, he believes that it would have been enough to make the difference.

RE: Moghedien under the a'dam

It isn't that it's hard for her to lie. Egwene promised to execute her if she caught her in one. The weave she pretended was for detecting a male channeling WAS a lie, but one she was sure wouldn't be discovered, since no female channelers of this age would know the difference, and because the Supergirls wouldn't tell if they did learn such a weave, if only to protect Rand.

RE: The Shaido

There are two different thoughts to apply to the generalization of Shaido as honorless. Certainly one might be that a history of unjust and despicable behavior being more prevalent across this clan than any other would devolve into the entire clan being considered guilty of such, just as much of the world believes that the worst of the "ugly American" behaviors applies to everyone from the U.S., rather than an identifiable few. The other thought is that the venom aimed at the Shaido is more accurately deserved by their leadership, but as is common the few represent the many, so guilt by association paints the entire clan with a broad brush.

Yes, there are a number of Shaido among the Maidens in the Dragon's camp. The Maidens seem to hold themselves to an especially high standard of integrity and behavior, so likely they avoid much of the stigma of their clan.


The ribbons' are not saidar. If they were part of the "defense mechanism" of Rhuidean, why didn't Rand and Mat encounter them on their first trip into the fog? The only explanation that makes sense is they are Asmodean's work, meaning they are saidin, so Rand sensing them is no issue. Immediately before then, Asmodean had been channeling deadly stuff at Rand while the two Skimmed. Immediately after getting through the fog, Asmodean channeled deadly stuff at Rand, trying to make sure he got to the access key first. So sandwiched between those two is a previously escaped saidar-made head-chopper that Rand somehow manaages to detect?
Roger Powell
97. forkroot
Hah!, my former sept! I'm afraid that my current residence in the desert southwest is much more like the threefold land.

You have brought back memories of summer nights and fresh raspberries over heavenly ice cream. I hadn't thought about Kimballs for years.... I have toh.
craig thrift
98. gagecreedlives

I thought the "wildness of the mind" was the feeling that he could do anything with Callandor. Like resuscitate the dead girl or when he thinks he can destroy the entire seanchan army in tPoD. What else would it be?

"RE: Moghedien under the a'dam

It isn't that it's hard for her to lie. Egwene promised to execute her if she caught her in one. The weave she pretended was for detecting a male channeling WAS a lie, but one she was sure wouldn't be discovered, since no female channelers of this age would know the difference, and because the Supergirls wouldn't tell if they did learn such a weave, if only to protect Rand. "

Pretty big risk for her to take considering Eg just showed her that she knew how to travel and no other female channeller of this age knew how to do that either.
99. Wolfmage
Yeah, the ribbons were definitely saidin. What interests me was whether they were inverted or not. I don't think the text makes it explicit. It doesn't help that Rand is still untrained at this point, so he doesn't know the mechanics yet to illuminate the perspective.

But it would seem odd if they weren't inverted, even assuming Asmo was in a huge rush. I've never got hte impression inversion was time consuming - just a matter of knowing how. IMO Rand's hesitation might make more sense than sheer ta'veren luck, if it was his nascent ability with channelling that detected the weave of saidin.
Amar Ramraj
100. aiel1219
Uhh,mb u didn't read the other posts I was referring to, but we were talking abt the ribbons being a defensive mechanism made of saidin and they came about as a response to a man trying to enter Ruhidean a 2nd time i.e. my theory was the fog read men entering and if they were entering for a 2nd time they activated the ribbons. I thought mb the ribbons were saidin and thus Rand was able to sense them. Thus the first time they didn't show up because they wetre specifically meant to stop men from entering more than once.

For reference to the discussion pls refer to 59. aiel1219 65. hoping and 95. aiel1219.

mb that will give u a better grasp of what I was trying to say.
Chris Hall
101. bookwormchris
I always read those wires of Saidin as a sneaky and nasty little surprise set up for Rand by the Forsaken he is chasing. I don't have the books now and won't have them back for over a week I think, so it is rather difficult for me to check the context.

Do you have the quote where it is mentioned that men can only go once and women can only go twice? I thought that was more custom and tradition than anything else. I could be wrong of course, it has been, as I've said before, nearly a year since my last reading of the series and I've read quite a few books in the intervening time.
sandi vogel
102. sinfulcashew
100. Aiel 1219
I agree with you as to the reason for the 'ribbons'
Until I got to your post, I was going to posit the same response.
Michael Ikeda
103. mikeda

The thing is that Couladin is telling the Shaido what they very much WANT to believe. And there isn't anyone of authority within the clan telling them anything different.

The other clans all have clan leaders who can tell them that what they want to believe isn't really true. And even then there are some clans where a substantial portion decides to follow Couladin.
John Massey
104. subwoofer
I am with Aiel1219 on this one. When I first read post 59 it was an "ah ha!" moment. Or WTF, how did I miss that in the text?- then going back and finding it as plain as day. That is what I get out of these discussions. Considering the length of this series, there is too much detail to retain unless you are taking notes for it like a university level course. Talking about it helps me put things into context.

@sps49,- that is what Asmo is for. He is shielded enough that he can be the fodder for discovery. Maybe Rand could watch him with a Louisville of power and if he does anything untoward, smack him one. It would accomplish two things. First, there might be some neat toys. Second, it would be like negative stimulus therapy for Asmo.

Maybe that was the thing. The Forsaken just went off their meds or had a bad reaction, crappy therapy and the whole DO thing came about. I dunno. Just a theory.

@lmelior83- I have put up the odd thread that gets discarded, only to find it taken up again at a later time. I don't take it personally. I just figure the timing wasn't right or that people have other things they want to discuss. The dagger- I don't think anything is supposed to damage cuendillar, it is WoT version of adamantium, maybe in a compromised state, like the seals, it could taint cuendillar.
Dale Norman
105. dokipen
Hey guys.

I've nothing to add to the literary comments that hasn't been said already but as to the pace of the novels.

I didn't come to the WoT until after KoD was already published. So, for me, there were no issues with patience and slog through the later books, it was all at once. I did, though, go through at such a pace that I missed a lot of detail that a second read, the FAQ and the Encyclopaedia made clear. It's more enjoyable on this re-read (I'm already about a quarter into tFoH) in that I'm picking up on even more and I'm taking my time.

Looking forward to the next re-read entry and for Friday... *is intrigued*

Cheers Leigh.
106. RobMRobM
forkroot@97 - Very little toh, spear sister. ;-)

FS@90. Welcome! On this site, check the April 8 blog post which argued that Dune was a great book for fantasy fans that don't like Sci-Fi. I did a post, mostly tongue in cheek, comparing the two series, as follows (with some edits) - Rob


Hi all - Dune is the best sci-fi/fantasy book ever written, bar none. Read it today.

For the Jordan/WOT fans, there are many similarities in the two worlds:

Citations to historical sources from pre-post events: both books
Lots of economics and ecology woven into storyline: both books
Paul = Rand
Bene Geserits = Aes Sedai
Head of BGs - Mix of Siuan and Elaida
Jessica = Moiraine
Baron Harkonnen = Padan Fain (but w/o magic)
Duncan Idaho = Lan
Gurney Hallek = Thom Merrilin
Fremen = Aiel
Stilgar = Rhuarc
Chani = Aviendha
Duke Leto = Davrahm Bashere (if he were king rather than marshall general and had a wife with a lot more secrets and secret skills)

Probably more but that's enough for now. Rob
Lannis .
107. Lannis
Hey all... I don't have a lot to add to the conversation at this point--my points have basically been said and, well, to be honest, the weather's fabulous here so I'm heading outside to read tFoH.

Freelancer: I find your analysis and comments very insightful... thanks! And I read the info on the Chekov's Gun link, too...

Hah! Pikers, upstarts, amateurs, n00bs! They haven't seen Wild Mass Guessing until they've seen us WoTFans with a theory to tear into.


Oh... and I smell some Darkfriends among us... (Chosen?!)

108. Wolfmage
Mikeda @ 103
“The thing is that Couladin is telling the Shaido what they very much WANT to believe. And there isn't anyone of authority within the clan telling them anything different.

The other clans all have clan leaders who can tell them that what they want to believe isn't really true. And even then there are some clans where a substantial portion decides to follow Couladin.”

Oh I understand the attraction of rejecting hard, alien truths and following a leader who tells you things which more readily fit your identity and ethos. And I certainly accept there would be massive convergence under a militaristic clan-based society, particularly from rank and file warriors.

However, there are two things which I think that make this insufficient. The first is that from the start a significant consensus in support of Rand is made by other Clan Chiefs, which eventually becomes all other Clan Chiefs. No doubt in-group loyalties are strong, but that must sow doubt to any rational person.

The second, and more important factor however, is the Shaido Wise Ones. We cannot dismiss the fact that they are both numerous and people of stature and influence in Aiel society. When they speak, Clan Chiefs listen. They can intermediate disputes. They are immune from violations against their person, and they can render judgements like making others outcasts. In other words, they are leaders of their people. Yet, despite knowing full well that Rand is the true HWCwtD from their own journey to the Glass Columns, they don't side with Rand. Instead, they cover up the truth and underwrite Sevanna’s agenda. So in many ways the Shaido Wise Ones are the most culpable - both in their own right and for not guiding their people.
Michael Catapano
109. hoping
I agree that the razor ribbons are interesting. I do love dissecting the details that make the world more real. Funny to say that when I am talking about fantasy but I like my fantasy to be consistent in its premises. RJ created an incredibly complex world that hangs together really well.

Remember the Superman comic books of the 50s and 60s? There was always a letters page in which the readers would point out inconsistencies in the storyline and the publishers would sometimes have to dance to make it right. Frequently they would really stretch it. RJ's world has few if any inconsistencies.

Anyway, on to the razor ribbons. Rand intuitively sensed the ribbons and rolled to avoid them. That implies to me that it was saidin. He can't see or sense Elayne making weaves in the scene while in the Stone. He only has the tingle. He can see the results of saidar weaves, as anyone can, if it is visible like lightning or a gateway. When he sees the ribbons he can see how to make them. I don't think he could do that if they were saidar.

Asmo was sending huge flames, fires and lightning before and after, not subtle at all. It does seem odd that he would sandwich a very subtle weave like razor ribbon in between. But I think they must have been saidin.

re wildness of mind with the choedan kal
With this surely he could do anything; surely he could even have Healed that dead child.

The difference I see is that the tone of the sentence seems thoughtful and rational and it doesn't feel like he was taken over by it.
I wonder if this is a foreshadowing that the male ck can be used in a circle with women for even greater affect.
110. CalaLily
hoping: "I wonder if this is a foreshadowing that the male ck can be used in a circle with women for even greater affect."

That's why I think there were two female access keys and only one male one. :)
Michael Catapano
111. hoping

Re death for repeat rhuidean visits

Rand wanted to go back to find Mo and Avi.
...Melaine exploded.
"You fool man! No man can go twice to Rhuidean. Even you would not come back alive!..."

Melaine seems adamant, like she really knows he would die, rather than it would be merely a break with tradition. Hard to say for sure.
I couldn't find the quote re women.
112. swmdilla
Maybe I'm slow, or maybe it's that i don't have internet in my apt, but TGS cover art is comment
113. cor-darei4life
The cover art as usual is uninspiring, although the cover does appears to contain a scene from the LAST book.

I had always assumed that the ribbons where a trap laid by asmo, but i could easily be wrong about that.
114. Rebecca Starr
forkroot and Rob.... oh yes Kimball's! It's been a while... I guess I'm a traitor because now I've switched to the New York clan and sept.
Andrew Lovsness
115. drewlovs
The ribbons are an enigma; I first thought they were a part of the "defense of Rhuidean", to stop men from returning. It made sense to me, since I wondered the first time I readd the book what would stop a man from returning. You know, the same machismo that Rand felt towards Avi and Mairaine, but just imagine a clan chief who has a wise woman in training for a wife...

ANYWAY. The discussion here has put that into doubt; if it were part of the defenses created at the time Rhuidean was built, it could only be Saidar, not Saidin -> no male Aei Sedai were part of its construction. So...if Rand saw what created them, even if he didn't understan what he was seeing...the fact that he COULD see them means it was probably a sly trap from Asmo and NOT part of the defense.

And comparing the Nynaeve fight with Mog to Rand's fight with Asmo is apples to oranges; Mog looked at Nynaeve in the same way Moiraine did, in that Nynaeve was under-trained and over confident. A threat, but one easily overcome. The fact tat she tried compulsion again, and did not attack is proof of this in my book.

Asmo, however, knew Rand was a badass, and had killed other forsaken strong than himself. There was no way in hades that Asmo would under-estimate Rand's ability to open a can of whoop-ass if he wasn't careful.

And, not to be a broken record, but the attack by shadowspawn was easily enough of a distraction to Rand for Asmo to make a trip to Rhuidean; and, Lanfear was NOT a significant detraction from Asmo's curiosity as to what was in the city that he could use, such as the statuette ter’angreal.

Fear of Lanfear doesn't work for me, because Lanfear would not be distracted by the events at Alcair Dal either. So for me at least, Asmo could have no real assurance that Lanfear wouldn't interfer during the attack of the shadowspawn OR the events at the end of the book.

Taking these thoughts to their logical conclusion, Asmo was never concerned with her in the first place as far as his exploration of Rhuidean.
John Fitzingo
116. Xandar01
62. NanaD and 84. Rebecca Starr

I am Bakersfield sept of the California Aiel. I pick Sovin Nai as my society.
Roger Powell
117. forkroot
Confidential to RobMRobM@106: That's um, spear brother :-)
And I'm still craving Kimballs on a warm summer night.

Agreed that Dune is awesome, but one huge difference from WoT is that the books that followed are mediocre (or worse). IMO, RJ kept getting better and better through the first five books of WoT and then maintained a fairly high level afterward.
118. alreadymadwhenCouladinsucked
More on Couladin's stupidity:
Note that Couladin at this point is not essentially evil. Violent and a bit unhinged, yes. But certainly no servant of the Dark One. An unwilling dupe at most. At his core, however, he is little more than a Two Rivers Coplin or Congar with a spear. He still sucks.

On Rand catching up to Asmodean. Egwene does note that it is not impossible. Just highly improbable and that a possible way to do it was to copy the weave exactly at the exact same starting point. Rand's ta'veren abilities might cover most of the odds. But Rand has other skills as well.
Arguably Rand has a talent for Travelling. It is not the first time he has Skimmed. A very flowery description of Skimming is depicted in EOTW when he went from the EoTW to Tarwin's Gap and on to his rendezvous with Ishamael. He is also able to do things with Gateways that surprise even Asmodean. Namely, he can hold them open with the Power. Whether they are made of Saidin or Saidar doesn't matter. He can hold one open overnight. Which is long enough for monkey business even by modern standards.
Another talent Rand will be displaying soon is an ability read residues. He does not think of it much. But if you skip to a White Tower POV, it is a very rare ability for them. He is however able to read residues of gateways accurately enough to determine where it is going. He can also copy the weave exactly so it will go to the exact same place, or alter it slightly so it will open some distance away.

Re: parallels with Dune
The Aiel and Fremen connection is the only one I really paid attention to. You need desert power to rule.
James Jones
119. jamesedjones
117 Forkroot


It's also possible that it's just an appropriate, and exact, quote from the books.
120. RobMRobM
Forkroot - I was riffing on the Avi - Liah? byplay in TFoH or LOC (I believe I used the exact quote from Liah's finger talk) but, in any event, appreciate the "confidential" clarification. I should have been clearer myself. Rob

P.s. How bout those Red Sox....
Sam Mickel
121. Samadai

I am of the Eugene sept of the Oregon Aiel.

I am of the opinion that the thin slices of air were left by Asmodean as a trap for Rand. Although looking at it objectively it could be Rhuideans trap for men entering twice.

Again we are talking about another skill that everyone thought was impossible, the ability to detect men channeling by a woman. We have Moggy "teaching" the girl trio a way to detect a man channeling even though there is "no such way". Then a long comes some random AS and sure enough there is a way to detect them.
James Jones
122. jamesedjones
121 Samadai

CAN NOT WAIT for the trio to find out the real way to sense saidin being channeled.

Egwene, being the lying hypocrite that she is, will probably claim that she had already decided that's the way to do it.

Elayne, having learned a little humility, might actually widen her eyes in shock and simply try to learn from the experience.

Nyneave, after tearing her braid out, might just tell Lan she's changed her mind and retrieve him from the Borderlands to set out to beat some 'wisdom' into Moggy.
Galen Brinn
123. GatheringStorm
Salisbury Sept, North Carolina Aiel.

I recall from a Graendal POV that even in the AoL, there was no way for women to detect men channeling. IIRC, she is thinking that it's unfair that men can feel when women are holding the Power but it's not the same in reverse. The ter'angreal that Cadsuane (and the ones in Far Madding) are the only things we've seen thus far that can detect male channeling.

That being said, given (sniff with nose in air) Elayne's ability to figure out ter'angreals and how to make them, it probably wouldn't take her too terribly long to figure those out and how to make it work w/o the ter'angreal...
124. Wolfmage
alreadymadwhenCouladinsucked @ 118.

As I posted at 85, I highly doubt Rand can be in any position to replicate Asmo's gateway of origin, whether he can read a residue or not (and I think he probably does have that talent).

We have virtually no reason to think Asmodean could possibly have left for Rhuidean from the ledge in full public view only minutes before Rand leaves Lanfear. Skimming is slower than travelling certainly, but it isn't THAT much slower. Most probably Asmodean left from somewhere else relatively close to the wagons, but not local to Rand's immediate vicinity, which leaves us where we started: Rand doing something that doesn't fit the Skimming rules as understood by Egwene. That is why a possible Saidar / Saidin difference is raised on the facts to explain the discrepancy.
125. alreadymadwhenAsmofreaked
Wolfmage @124
True, and I never meant to imply that Rand copied Asmodean's weave to Skim, though such a feat should be within his abilities if the opportunity had presented itself. I suspect Rand and Asmo meeting in the space between is a combination of Rand's ta'veren ability to bend the odds and his own innate Talents with Travelling.

Re: RobMRob's quote.
Yes, I believe that comes straight out of the books. Although I think the dialogue went this way:
A: I have toh
L: Very small, spear-sister.
Antoni Ivanov
126. tonka
@ 122.jamesedjones

Why ? I don't think Egwene is hypocrite.
Antoni Ivanov
127. tonka
In Winter Heart everyone in the whole World felt when Ny and Rand were channeling with the two ter'angreals. But no one seems to mention when Rand and Asmo channel half of that power each. It still must be felt by at least half the world. Did any of the Forsaken sense that? Any of the male channelers (the future Asha'man) ?
Galen Brinn
128. GatheringStorm

Good point. I actually hadn't thought about that myself. However, people who can't yet channel can't detect the power (at least from what we've seen so far), so the only "future Ashaman" I can think of who would have felt it would be Mazrim Taim and...that's about it. None of the rest were channeling yet: Mazrim mostly finds those who can learn and a very small number of those with the ability in-born.

The male Forsaken should have felt it, I would think, though. So this might be one fine detail that slipped past The Creator...
James Jones
129. jamesedjones
126 Tonka

Really?! You don't remember Egwene getting caught in TAR (when she was explicitly told not to) and then turning it around on Nyneave in a despicable fashion?
130. wsean
Well, doesn't Sammael start sending Darkhounds and whatnot after Rand shortly after this battle?

At this point, the only other ones who could've detected the massive channeling were Rahvin, Demandred, and Taim.

And I may be mistaken, but I vaguely recall Taim commenting at one point on the existence of enormous sa'angreal, kind of subtly asking if Rand knows anything about them. This would point to his having detected the channeling.
131. jlyman
I am from teh West Valley sept of the Utah Aiel. And I think that I would probably make enough noise walkiing around that I would be of the Thunder Walkers society.

LOL I crack myself up. I know, everyone else is just scratching their heads and moving on to the next comment.

It's been quite some time since I have read The Shadow Rising (still in The Dragon Reborn in my reread), but I remember thinking that the ribbons must have been something that Asmodean set up. It makes sense to me that he would try something not so "in your face" after so many firewalls and stuff. But it's an interesting theory that they were actually part of the defenses of Rhuidean.
James Jones
132. jamesedjones
130 Wsean

I could have sworn the comment from Taim came before the massive spring cleansing. I figured it, like his quote about "so called Aiel", was another reference to his being Demandred.

Edit: Never mind. You're actually referencing the pertinent information with Asmo and Rand in Rhuidean. Sorry.

Also, we have got to find a reference to something online that specifies if there are any shadowspan who can survive gateways. It just seems like such an easy solution to gholam and darkhounds.
133. Perhaps.
Re: 132

Not so easy of a solution being that MOST are not powerful enough to weave a gateway. Plus, who knows, Shadar (the uber mydral (sp?) ) may perhaps be what you are talking about.
Antoni Ivanov
134. tonka

Oh, This one everyone is doing it. You remember Elayne when Ny defeated Moggy. And I think Min's being that way a few times with Rand. Maybe I should say that I don't think that Egwene is more hypocrite than the others. Maybe A little bit. She is an Amyrlin, she is playing the Great Game with the best. Hypocrisy is kinda part of being a good manipulator. But even then I don't found Egwene being hypocrite really. Maybe my judgment is not good and I am wrong but that's what I think
Alice Arneson
135. Wetlandernw
Agree with tonka that Egwene is not a hypocrite. She reaches a point where she decides not to let Nynaeve keep the authority position, but iirc Nynaeve didn't have anything to do with whether Egwene was supposed to be in TAR or not. So the fact that she catches Nynaeve in something to distract from her own situation isn't hypocritical in my book. Just basically changing the subject so as not to get caught up in defending herself to someone who has no right to judge anyway.

Other than that, Egwene adopts a firm code of "do what you have to do, and bear the consequences." At this point in the books, she's still very much in the growing-up stage, but by the time she leaves the Aiel I think she's a pretty admirable woman. Some people think it's hypocritical to adopt another culture so much, as she does, but I think it's a matter of soaking up everything she can, and trying to soak up the best/most useful qualities in every situation. She picks up the most from the Aiel and Aes Sedai (added to the character shaped by the TR upbringing), with a few tidbits learned from the Tinkers, Seanchan, and various other contacts. So by the time you get to the end of what's been written, she's learned to be devious, forceful, clever, thorough, strong, humble, and dignified, as well as smart enough to know which trait to emphasize when. Okay, so that makes her a born manipulator, but given the situations she ends up facing, it's a good thing in my book. She's both strong and flexible, and it's gonna help save the world.

Oh, and the only time I can think of when she "claim(ed) that she had already decided that's the way to do it" was when Moggy tried to pretend she couldn't show her how to Travel. And she HAD already mostly figured it out; Mog just inadvertently confirmed that she was right. You could at least give her credit that she had hesitated to try it until she got that confirmation.
Antoni Ivanov
136. tonka
@ 130.wsean
Well, doesn't Sammael start sending Darkhounds and whatnot after Rand shortly after this battle?

At this point, the only other ones who could've detected the massive channeling were Rahvin, Demandred, and Taim.

You forgot Sammael, Rahvin, and I bet that Taim was not the only men who could channel in the whole World. He was just the only one who was known to(besides Rand) I bet that most people who discover they can channel decide not to try their luck by claiming to be the Dragon Reborn (and yeah probably most of the people who channel don't even know until it kill/drive them crazy kinda (kinda!) like Nyneave). And it's likely that a few of then ended being Asha'man.

And one more thing. Demandred is not Taim and Taim is not Demandred , that was repudiated by RJ a few times.So 100% Taim is not Demandred

And one more thing RJ said that we've never seen Demandred's alter ego in the books(in the first 10 at least. Nothing's said about KOD)

If you don't believe me click here :
137. Spook
Cutting Asmo's link to the dark one was a great move.
Next on my favorite events in WOT: Mat taking up his role as general. Looking foreward to that one!
James Jones
138. jamesedjones
136 Tonka

Just a red herring. :P

Thought the joke was pretty clear. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
139. alreadymadwhenRhuideangotnuk
GatheringStorm @128
They would have felt it, IMHO and they would have stayed away. Most had to be ordered to go to Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing. And the weaving there had a specific purpose. One that they could potentially disturb or disrupt. Rand and Asmo at Rhuidean just had large random weaves of the Power going any which way. Can anybody say nuclear warzone?
140. Freelancer

Agree with you regarding WoT/Dune comparison. It seems to me that Jordan saw the whole from the beginning, and built the plot details to an excruciating and unparalleled level before any volumes were published, whereas the feeling from Dune is that Herbert had a well-built plot for two books, and then kept adding on to both the future and backstory as he went along.

The largest problem I have with the books following God Emporer is the spiraling descent into graphic descriptions of behaviors of the flesh, rather than substantial plot activity. Not near as bad as Heinlein, who couldn't get much more than halfway through a book without it turning into pr0n, but still not what I buy sci-fi novels for.

Jordan's work is to be appreciated for many things, but maintaining a reasonable level of modesty is a big one for me.


How about Dem Bums in LA?


Thank you, I needn't comment regarding Egwene's "hypocrisy", since you said what I would have.
141. Freelancer

I imagine the thoughts going on in a male forsaken's mind during the Rand/Asmo throwdown would resemble the following:

::Holy crap! I haven't felt weaves like that since before the 3000 year nap.::

::I can't believe that anybody of this age knows how to do that, and nobody of any age is strong enough unaided for me to feel a thing from such a distance. That means Lews Therin, and probably also one of us is involved, as well as a major sa'angreal::

::Should I go check it out? Nope, not getting within five leagues of an untrained channeler with access to that much Power, nor making myself a target for another Chosen on True Source steroids::
Dru O'Higgins
142. bellman
I thought the cleansing was sensed because the weaves were affecting the whole planet. I think the bowl of the winds was also sensed from a distance, probably for the same reason. The Rand/Asmodean slapfest was huge but local.
Michael Catapano
143. hoping
I would add
::I gotta get me one of those::
Roger Powell
144. forkroot

Not near as bad as Heinlein, who couldn't get much more than halfway through a book without it turning into pr0n, but still not what I buy sci-fi novels for.

Agree with the above, but only for "later" Heinlein. He had a good body of work, then came Stranger in a Strange Land and it went downhill from there.

Another point about the Asmo vs. Rand set-to. Remember that the cleansing went on for quite some time (many hours, maybe a day?). This time, along with the fact that they knew it might be coming, gave the Forsaken plenty of opportunity to show up and try to ruin the party.

In contrast, I don't think Rand and Asmo struggled for that long before Rand cut him off. Given the surprise, any male channeler who sensed all that saidan being channeled might have still been considering what to do when it stopped.
Jay Dauro
145. J.Dauro
@141 and others going back

Possibly it could be related to only being two men fighting over one sa'angreal.

Yes, they tore up a lot. But when Rand and Nyneave link and channel, we get into the concept of the One Power is most powerful when Men and Women work together.

We see later that a typical channeling man and women linked can build a much larger gateway than Rand alone. (KOD) So maybe a man and a woman linked (pretty much the most powerful channeler of each sex) can really make those sa'angreal get a workout. And they had two, not one.

And remember that they destroy one of the sa'angreal doing it.

So possibly in Rhuidean it could be detected at a much greater distance than usual channeling, but maybe not as far as WH.

Still, you wouldn't catch me going to check if I did detect it. No sir. My momma taught me when to keep my nose out of other people's business.
Alice Arneson
146. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @140
Thanks - it's good to know the little grey cells are working again. :)

I was a little startled when I saw your comment on Heinlein, but I think most of what I've read was either earlier work or stuff targeted to younger readers. I'll make sure I avoid his later stuff next time I get the urge to read him. Thanks for the warning. Seems like it got to be a "thing" in the scififan genre for a while, like an author figured that if they didn't go at least "soft porn" occasionally no one would take them seriously. I got pretty edgy about trying new authors after while, and got pretty disgusted with some of the old faves, too. And what really annoyed me was that many of them were crafting perfectly good readable stories that I would have otherwise enjoyed. Gah. You're right - it's one of the things I've appreciated about RJ as well. You can read as much or as little into things as you want, depending on your mindset, but he always left the details to your imagination.
Roger Powell
147. forkroot
It wasn't just that Heinlein started writing more erotic passages, it bothered me more that he just started dragging on and on with that crap. I'm no prude, but I prefer plot twists, action scenes, and (for SciFi) visions of how society might deal with various imagined technological advances.

Unfortunately, Heinlein is not the only author who peaked and then got away with a lot of schlock based on his good name. Rather than dwell on that, I'd rather express my delight that RJ actually evolved and improved his writing over the course of the WoT.

I will grant that the later volumes got a bit indulgent on introducing extra plot threads, characters, and so forth. But the actual quality of the writing remained strong, even when the story would slow down for a while.

Now, regretfully, RJ died in his prime. (Does anyone else besides me feel get a weird feeling when they read on the "About the Author" page that he "plans to continue (keep writing) until they nail shut his coffin"?)

We can only surmise that he would keep up his standards through the planned prequels, outriggers, and other series. Damn! I wish we could have found out.
148. Freelancer

Glad to know that judgement about Heinlein wasn't unique to me. Never can tell how others relate. Yes, is was indeed "Stranger in a Strange Land" that turned me off of Heinlein. It's really too bad, the first half of the book is top-notch, you grok? Herbert never got as prurient in the Dune books, and he played the old boiling-a-frog routine, each volume raising (lowering) the bar, culminating in really unnecessary stuff in Chapterhouse.


I already had the impression that we share a similar mindset on a number of topics, and your comments about the descent of some sci-fi work resonates very strongly with me. And it is exactly the leaving the details to the reader's imagination that makes the written word so much more powerful than movies.
149. Wolfmage
“She reaches a point where she decides not to let Nynaeve keep the authority position, but iirc Nynaeve didn't have anything to do with whether Egwene was supposed to be in TAR or not. So the fact that she catches Nynaeve in something to distract from her own situation isn't hypocritical in my book. Just basically changing the subject so as not to get caught up in defending herself to someone who has no right to judge anyway.”

Hypocrisy is probably the wrong word, but don’t you find something flakey with her approach and motives in those scenes? I mean there is nothing wrong with Egwene trying to rebalance her relationship with Nyneave, using whatever rhetorical tricks, force of personality and influence she can muster to do it. But IMO she should be doing that independently of ulterior motives – just as a matter of her growing up and the relationship developing past Wisdom-Assistant.

But in the scenes we are all referring to, Egwene is essentially experimenting with manipulation to try to unbalance Nyneave purely to prevent her connecting the dots about her breach of the teaching covenant with the Wise One’s. She feels incredibly treated by this because she desires knowledge and is afraid of being cut off. First, she acts with the reflexivity of a child caught red handed by dressing Nyneave down in front of the Wise Ones to smokescreen her deceit to them. Then afterwards, to avoid dealing with her feelings of guilt and the fallout from treating Nyneave like that, she emotionally bulldozes her in the Tower meeting scene - again - because she is worried that she may be exposed. Her perspective is given and she is literally exhilarated with the experimental knockout she has just administered to Nyneave, without any appreciable concern for the fact that it was based on petty self-interest and a loss of high moral ground.

Now, I know there are plenty of Nyneave haters who may think Nyneave deserves what she gets, but it always left a bad taste in my mouth about Egwene even if you don't sympathise with Nyneave.

“Other than that, Egwene adopts a firm code of "do what you have to do, and bear the consequences."

She does get better at this. But it is a gradual transition and she hasn't convinced me yet. Her first courageous act of discharging toh to the Wise Ones was highly prompted by being shamed by her mentors and her cowardice and she got it easy by doing it all at once. Possibly each individual trangression was worth a slippery to remember but she got to do it all in one sitting - like confession. It's also selective in application - I haven't seen her try to discharge toh to Wetlanders. Finally, I’ll also put more credit in that truism once she at least discharges her toh to Melaine and Rhuarc at the minimum. BS better not forget!
150. TAmyrlinring1

In case you misread this part, for later events, the female sa'angreal wasn't destroyed, just its ter'angreal key. So, I would be surprised if another key isn't found somewhere so that it can be used again.
151. Wolfmage
Couple of correction aids to reading the above: treated = threatened and slippery = slippering.

Oh, and I forgot to mention Egwene's major toh to Mat for his rescue of the Supergirls from the Stone. Nyneave and Elayne have basically discharged that now, but will Egwene? I'm betting she isn't even aware she has toh, which is a shameful thing in itself for those that profess to follow ji'e'toh.
152. TAmyrlinring1
@149 and @ 151 Wolfmage

Exactly. I was surprised reading posts here (I'm a newbie to the site) just how vehement the hatred is towards Nynaeve. I always felt sorry for her. She had worked hard against odds (being and looking young in a society that doesn't favor either as worthy of respect, quite the opposite) to be a good and "proper" Wisdom to Emond's Fielders. She had a niche there where it was hard to maintain and keep respect, but she did it. Then she was drawn out into a totally different world where her "safety" approach totally fell flat. She couldn't pull rank on Aes Sedai and the heirarchy at the WT left her totally bereft. And then, the child she had cared for, Egwene, although admittedly "growing up", suddenly turns the tables on her and forces her somewhat into a submissive role. She may not deal with things in the best way, but surely she's not worthy of the general hatred directed her way. I think she's just growing up herself and that she'll settle down into her role in life as the story unfolds.
153. jafco
@82. Valan

"...Anyway, I guess the point being is there is a certain point in WoT that its stops being a series and becomes one big-ass book. This point is different for lots of people (for me it is Lord of Chaos.) The general side-effect of this is that we get pissed when things don't end, and its not going to until A Memory of Light part 3...."

Maybe, but I'm not sure I really want it to end. I mean -- no more exploits of Mat, wondering when the dice will stop spinning and what in the world it means? No more epic braid-pulling, sniffing, skirt-tending scenes between Nyn and however many other characters. This stuff is ADDICTIVE, I tells ya. And I mean that.
Amar Ramraj
154. aiel1219
Uhh, abt the forsaken and other male channelers not feeling Rand's and Asmo's big throwdown. Here r my thoughts:
1. Well it would be half the size of what Rand and Nyn used to cleanse the source, so not nearly as noticable (two distinct set of weaves).
2. They were directing it at eachother not straight at the ACTUAL SOURCE of the OP. So that might also have had something to do with it.
3. I was always under the impression that part of why EVERY OP user in the world sensed the cleansing was because it was this huge force actually directed at the source of the one power itself!
4. Another thing to consider is the shield around Rhuidean. Why can it not be entered in T'A'R. Could the shield somehow have dampened the OP activity being broadcast? MB?

ok well 2 n 3 are extensions of eachother.
That's my interpretation... but very likely its probably wrong. meh.
Chris Hall
155. bookwormchris

Perhaps then the problem is not entering twice but rather leaving the second time. Rand solved that particular problem by shredding the shield (and whatever else) around the city in his fight. It would be interesting to know where the Wise Ones get their information on this matter.

As for Egwene, I really think her time with the Wise Ones has matured her quite a bit. She still has much to learn, but then I think we all continue to learn, at least until we die (can't speak for after death, and yes, that bit in the back of the books always gives me a shiver down the spine when I read it.) Her time in the Tower after her capture is really pure Awesome for me. Can't wait to see how all of that resolves itself.
Jay Dauro
156. J.Dauro
TAmyrlinring1 @150

KOD Chapter 22.

The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow. It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion.

It appears that both the access key and the sa'angreal were destroyed.
Alice Arneson
157. Wetlandernw
TAmyrlinring1 @150

Uh, no, the crystal on Tremalking is completely toast. The male sa'angreal in Cairhien is, as far as we know, still intact, but the female one will never be used again.

TAmyrlinring1 @152

Don't get me wrong - I love Nynaeve. Like all the girls (well, the guys too!) she deserves a slap upside the head sometimes, but I really like her. (Go back and read the... discussion... between Freelancer & I on her. *wink* One of the few issues we've taken opposite sides on.) I only referred to that episode in response to jamesedjones@129 comment. I felt it was unjust of him to accuse Egwene of hypocrisy in that case; while she did feel a bit of unholy glee at being able to turn the tables, I don't think hypocrisy comes into it. You really can't fault her reaction - Nynaeve had ALWAYS been in authority over her, and much to her surprise the quick-and-dirty attempt to change the subject worked WAY better than she expected and all of a sudden she had the upper hand. Wouldn't you try it again, just to see if it would work twice? I'm always a bit torn on that scene, because I see both sides of it WAY too well, so I end up with this rueful laugh thing going.
158. TAmyrlinring1
J. Dauro @156

I stand corrected. I don't have KOD, and only borrowed it from the library once, but I do remember the reference about the time of illusion now that you cited it. Had forgotten the part about the hand melting though, just remembered the melted ter'angreal that Nynaeve used. Doesn't that then beg the question of why that sa'angreal was destroyed and not the male one?

Thanks for the point out. I'll have to go borrow KOD again :-)
159. TAmyrlinring1
Wetlandernw @157

It wasn't a reference to any of the posts today, but some older threads I looked through. I won't bother to go back, but there were actually references of hating that b-h Nynaeve. I was just sort of startled about that, that's all. I pretty much thought, as you did, that they all deserved the occasional slap upside the head, but certainly wouldn't have picked Nynaeve out as being that objectionable. RJ simply did a good job at giving each of the characters some very human faults. I personally found Faile more annoying, but still liked her.
160. ZamIt
Leigh's commentary "He pushes himself to his knees, and sees that almost everything in the square – and the city – has been destroyed, including Avendesora, though the glass columns still stand."

From my book "The glass columns still stood -- he was grateful for that ; destroying them would have been like obliterating the history of the Aiel -- and though trefoil leaves littered the pavement beneath Avendesora, only one branch on the great tree hung broken."

I had to check. The tree still lives!

Also, who at this point thought that Couladin would meet his end at Mat's hands? That was kind of a curveball. It makes me wonder who gets to take care of the remaining baddies, ie Masema, Luc/Isam, Fain. I would guess Perrin, Lan, and Rand respectively, but that is why Couladin/Mat is so neat to me. The obvious match-ups may not work out so obviously. And I left out plenty of other baddies. There's lots to go around.
Jay Dauro
161. J.Dauro
TAmyrlinring1 @158

Possibly because Rand is stronger than Nyneave.

But more I think that it was being worked more. In the channeling to cleanse the source, Rand had to use Saidar as the conduit to push all of Saiden through. So maybe it took more power on the female half.


All of them need a dope slap at times. I personnaly find Nyneave a bit more objectionable than Faile, particulary with the "all men are fools" attitude. And the idea that she is perfect, while the others are unreasonable (just finished my re-read of FOH, thinking particularly of the time on the River Serpent, and her relations with Elayne and Birgitte.)
Jay Dauro
162. J.Dauro

This is what is called a continuity error.

From the Encyclopedia WOT

In early printings of TSR, Avendesora had only a single broken branch. This contradicted TFoH,Ch2 where Avendesora is badly charred, but still alive.

TFoH Chapter 2

Moiraine said it still lived, that it would put out shoots again, but so far he saw only blackened bark, and bare branches.

So later printings had the end of TSR changed to match TFoH
163. ZamIt
Well, at least the tree still lives somehow. When the tinkers get their song back, it wouldn't be right (or even possible) without the tree.
Alice Arneson
164. Wetlandernw
TAmyrlinring1 @159

Yes, in some of the past threads there has been a LOT of Nynaeve-hating. Also Faile-hating, Egwene-hating, Elayne-hating, even a little Moiraine-, Aviendha- and Min-hating. (Not much of the last.) I've never agreed with any of it, and don't entirely understand it either. (I must admit to a huge amount of amusement at all of us, though, in the way we get so emotionally involved in these fictional characters. We have these heated debates over their motivations and personalities as if they were real people. We're hilarious.) But I personally think RJ wrote some very believable, likable characters with realistic flaws to keep them from being annoyingly perfect - so they are sometimes annoying. Oh well.

Oh, and let's not forget the Berelain-hating. That's me. :) I understand that one.
165. Wolfmage
"You really can't fault her reaction"

Why not? I outline my opinion above @ 149 stating exactly what I find objectionable and flakey about her motives and approach in those scenes. Hypocrisy doesn't enter into it, but she is still acting in a callow fashion.

"Nynaeve had ALWAYS been in authority over her, and much to her surprise the quick-and-dirty attempt to change the subject worked WAY better than she expected and all of a sudden she had the upper hand."

True, but the whole reason she turns the tables in the situation isn't part of a rightful demand for recognition of her new self, in the spirit of forging a new balance in their relationship. It was entirely about her covering up her wilful violation of the Wise One's trust, and then she suddenly and opportunistically finds out she can manipulate Nyneave to gain the upper hand over, and so exploits it gleefully.

I'm not an Egwene hater by any means. But I think compared to Elayne and Nyneave she doesn't do much until the later books to actually warrant her cushy ride. She gets Siuan accelerated treatment from all those around her without actually have Siuan's brains if you ask me. We only get these occasional flashes of insight into political situations, which aren't particularly noteworthy or insightful, as the literary crutch for supposing she is worthy of the office. Only after a while in the Stole does she start acting like a real leader IMO.
Alice Arneson
166. Wetlandernw
Wolfmage: All I can say is, you've obviously never been a 17-year-old girl who unexpectedly finds herself with a bit of leverage on an authority figure she's been doing her best to catch up with for the last year or so...!
Alice Arneson
167. Wetlandernw
Oh, and may I point out that while you don't feel Egwene measures up to Elayne & Nynaeve, she is 8 years younger than Nynaeve and was brought up as the innkeeper's daughter, not the Daughter-Heir of Andor. Of course she doesn't have the same level of experience they do. She's just got a whole lot of potential and a burning desire to learn. And it looks like she's gonna need all that potential AND all she can learn.
Antoni Ivanov
168. tonka
But of course. Egwene is barely 20 years at age. And Siuan is has been Aes Sedai for 20 years and Amyrlin half of that time.And 7 years in Tower training before being raised.It was as good as bad all this forcing.

Egwene is supposed to not know anything, to make mistakes. But what is good here is that she learns quick. Just remember her in EotW and in the beginning of LoC and later in KOD. She has matured a lot, learned a lot. She doesn't think that men are worth nothing. Look at how she handle with Talmanes and Bryne. And she even protected kinda Mat in front Ny and Elayne.She always follows the advice to the people around her and listen to them especially Siuan.
If it was not for Siuan Egwene wouldn't be what she is now.But Siuan is only a teacher and a friend.Nothing more.
169. Wolfmage
Heh. No, I should think not! Whilst it may be completely understandable for a young person to find themselves suddenly overturning past relationship barriers and then feeling exhilaration about it, her motives and the way she goes about it is not flattering for me. If the scene was about Nyneave attempting to bully her and then Egwene overawing her I would feel completely different.

But I also obviously have bit of a disconnect with the way RJ writes Egwenes' entitlement more broadly through the series, which means I must follow and relive each of her steps to ascendency somewhat grudgingly. It also doesn't help that I like Nyneave, and this happens to be the beginning of the long road of Nyneave's diminution as a peremptory character.
John Massey
170. subwoofer
'K - others have mentioned it as lmelior points out, but the armor has been talked about. At the dreaded Post #10 -which proves how things go sideways when Leigh leaves us unsupervised Randalator talks about it too.

And there was this R.Fife guy who wanted to crawl into a cuendillar bunker when he Rickrolled us the first goabout. The doof.

And Forkroot, I thought it was creepy too about RJ's famous last words, STS. Was looking for a link to a previous post but then came to my senses as I have talked waaay too much. It must of been one of my dark, moody, drinking and typing posts...always happens when I post after midnight...

And for me, the whole Egwene as Amyrlin came out of nowhere. One moment she is learning how to dream walk, the next she is summoned to the hall. A barely raised Accepted. I think I am going to have to go back and follow that train down the tracks too. Did not see it coming. A WTF moment, even with the reduced amount of sisters that left the Tower, there must of been some better qualified. Unless it was the power struggle thing. But still...
171. Wolfmage
"And Siuan is has been Aes Sedai for 20 years and Amyrlin half of that time.And 7 years in Tower training before being raised."

I'm not trying to compare Siuan the full Aes Sedai with Egwene at this point; I'm comparing her to Siuan the Accepted or newly raised Aes Sedai. Now, inevitably some bleeding of chronologically later perceptions may occur into earlier ones, because New Spring is a prequel by nature, and you can only make first impressions once. But for what its worth, I note that Siuan started life in the Tower as a poor fisherman's daughter with no education, (probably less than Egwene’s as the daughter of the Mayor and proprietor of the Winespring Inn). But she still became the best student in her year absorbing the wisdom and knowledge of all this education so well that she was teaching the bloody old tongue classes. Now, I know Egwene is also a bit of a sponge, but I don't think she ever has objective accolades on that level as far as I can see.

In her corner she has what I consider to be two largely undeserved and arbitrary genetic gifts - channelling strength and the facility to dreamwalk. Indeed, but for a couple of generic insightful remarks and some heavy handed foreshadowing by Moiraine, I’m not see her appeal as the second coming.

In contrast, Siuan at the same stage struck me as being wise and intense from the word dot. She also passed that card coding test the moment she was raised and got selected to work the Blue's Eyes and Ears network. I think that's all pretty powerful testimony that Siuan actually deserved her entitlement.

"But what is good here is that she learns quick. Just remember her in EotW and in the beginning of LoC and later in KOD. She has matured a lot, learned a lot. She doesn't think that men are worth nothing. Look at how she handle with Talmanes and Bryne."

Oh definitely she gets much, much better. But remember that that is much later than what I’m talking about, and by that stage she has already been on the cushy-express plot train for a long time.
172. Wolfmage
subwoofer @ 170

"And for me, the whole Egwene as Amyrlin came out of nowhere. One moment she is learning how to dream walk, the next she is summoned to the hall. A barely raised Accepted. I think I am going to have to go back and follow that train down the tracks too. Did not see it coming. even with the reduced amount of sisters that left the Tower, there must of been some better qualified. Unless it was the power struggle thing. But still..."

It was definitely tied up with the political desirability of a having a Hall controlled puppet in contrast to the risks of assuming power themselves directly. Plus there was the reality that each of the leading candidates - Romanda, Lelaine and Sheriam – had insufficient support by themselves. From that deadlocked position - Siuan was able to plant the seed of Egwene’s nomination and pull out her own candidate, which again shows how awesome Siuan is..

Now Egwene does eventually start deserving the position she is handed on a plate, but not for a long time.
Andrew Lovsness
173. drewlovs
Wow, look at all the Egwene protectors!!

Hehe...I like Egwene, but I'm with Wolfmage here; Egwene rode rough-shod over Nynaeve for completely selfish reasons, and then found the power position addicting. Do I blame her? No, but lets not go overboard with excuses when we gave none for Nynaeve in similar situations.

Why would Nynaeve have it coming anymore than Egwene...or Rand, or even Matt?

My favorite characters, in order, are Matt, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve, with Min worked in somewhere (I haven't quite figured out where). I'm a man, so my preference for Rand Matt probably stem from some hidden gender bias; I'm not perfect, ya'know.

I say this just to make the point that I don't dislike Egwene, but I really felt that the Tower scene was a bit of kicking Nynaeve when she was down. Yes, Egwene needed to start down her arc of being THE supergirl, but to deny the eggs that were broken when making omeletes is a bit much.

Hypocritical? She was the entire time she talked to the wise women ABOUT Nyn and Elayne; but not in the scenes we are talking about. But she certainly didn't win any friendship prizes when she got her turn as being "on the top bunk" for a change. In fact, you could say she did Nyn proud by pretty much doing the same thing Nyn did when SHE was top dog.
John Massey
174. subwoofer
Yes, eventually she does grow into her leadership roll, but then it gets me back on the rant about how she was caught buggering about in the dark. Her best moment was when she gets a state of war declaration. The Romanda, Lelaine tug of war really got me down. I was still expecting some retribution from Egwene on that account. Then again, she was mature, unlike me, and chose the higher ground.
John Massey
175. subwoofer
I am a B side person myself- Loial, Hopper, Uno(reminds me of me), Rhuarc, and Davram Bashere round out my top 5. Big fan of the unsung heros of the story that are just there, logging everyone else's awesomeness but claiming none for themselves.
176. Freelancer

I wouldn't say we took opposite sides regarding Nynaeve. I was never a Nynaeve-hater. I've never been a hater of any of the Hero squad, not even Cadsuane, who seems to relish being hated. My only point ever in the Nynaeve argument was that her treatment of people whom she should have viewed as equals or better was inappropriate and indefensible. But her heart has always been in the right place.

She went after the four Emond's Field kids in the first place because there was no better choice to do so. She's unattached, has no farm, mill, inn, or other business to attend to, and was raised by a woodsman to have the skills necessary to travel alone in the open. She despises Moiraine for invading her home village, disrupting life (she sets aside that business with the shadowspawn while this is on her mind), and apparently stealing several young folk with hardly a word.

All that is well and good, until after she learns more about the nature of Moiraine's business, and how the Fight against the Shadow was going to come to Emond's Field with or without Moiraine's involvement. A wise person would, at that time, engage in an agonizing reappraisal of their motives, and adjust accordingly. Nynaeve holds to her original perceptions long after they've been ground to dust by larger realities.

Other than that, and her inability to see a fault in herself that she lambastes others for, she da' bomb.

About Egwene, I agree with pretty much everyone else that her reason for forcibly changing the subject on Nynaeve during that fateful T'a'R visit was a selfish misdirection. However, once she realized that Nynaeve had been forced to acknowledge and feel repentant about her own foibles (something LONG overdue), and that it provided her (Egwene) an ever-present lever to remind Nynaeve anytime she might drift in that direction again, I have no problem at all with her employing it to maximum effect.

Every single character in this story brings baggage of one shape and color or another. Even Loial. Even Rhuarc. And it was utterly intentional on Jordan's part.

One of my favorite clue-by-fours of this entire story is when Rand and Cadsuane are discussing the five great generals, and what they have in common that makes them so. That they follow up each engagement with a Lessons Learned session, where they analyze the negatives about the event and adjust tactics or procedures for the next time.

But you can't learn lessons if you don't share information. Jordan is ramming that point home from every direction, and to me it is one of the key morals intended to be learned.
Roger Powell
177. forkroot

I am a B side person myself- Loial, Hopper, Uno(reminds me of me), Rhuarc, and Davram Bashere round out my top 5. Big fan of the unsung heros of the story that are just there, logging everyone else's awesomeness but claiming none for themselves.

I'm with you on this, though I start with Leane on the top of my unsung hero list. Good call on Hopper too!


Every single character in this story brings baggage of one shape and color or another. Even Loial. Even Rhuarc. And it was utterly intentional on Jordan's part.

Agree with you (mostly), and I appreciate that aspect of the story immensely. That said, I'll pose a no baggage counter-example: Someshta (the Green Man). I realize he's got a small part, but from what we can determine, he has kept faith for 3000 years, performing a duty that was certainly not the original intent of his kind.
Antoni Ivanov
178. tonka
I think I agree with everyone on Egwene.
One other moments beside the Declaration of War that made me very nice impression is when she is the only one to keep calm and reign the Hall of the Tower- that is when the proposal for alliance with the Black Tower was put forward. Egwene was fantastic then.

Btw my favourite character has always been Moiraine, then probably Rand and there are like 20 characters close to Rand , among them Cadsuane,Mat,Egwene (who are in the upper half).
Antoni Ivanov
179. tonka
Btw I thought something. Brandon Sanderson told us that there are 4 major plot lines. And my guess is that they are Egwene/White Tower/Aes Sedai's, Mat/Thom/Moiraine's, Rand's , Perrin's

And he told us that two will be finished in the first book and two in the second ( and there would be spoilers for the other two while the first two are developing ) .

Which two will be the first , in your opinion?
Andrew Lovsness
180. drewlovs
My best guess would be the 3 farmboys re-uniting at the end of the book. Perrin's climax with the prophet MUST be one of the plotlines we will be following in the next book, if there is any justice. Otherwise, the pain of the "Faile is in trouble!! Let's kill as many people as we can saving her!!" arc will have to be put on hold. Blech.

I also think that we need Egwene firmly in place in Tar Valon for the climactic scene between her and Rand. I'm not saying we will see that in tGS, I'm just saying Ewene needs to be in place for it. Would the "black ajah hunters" be considered a third plotline? IF so, we will see a lot of that long before we see Egwene.

Also, Moiraine will be a power-player by the end of tGS; thats my opinion, but think of what we think we know (that's a mouth full); Moiraine will not show up just for the last 100 pages. We might just start with Matt and Thom headed towards a certain tower.

As for questions...who are YOUR favorite characters, and why? As I said earlier, I like Matt, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve. Matt, for being someone I always wanted to be and Rand for the person I always thought I SHOULD have been.

Egwene...well, she is someone that I would love to have for a daughter. I have 2 right now, and her development, in maturity and intelligence is something I hope for in those two that at this time are trying my patience.

And Nynaeve...well, Nyn was my wife, plain and simple. Tough as nails in public, always needing to be right, but underneath, desparate for love and friendship. And don't forget, her passion for "right and wrong", even when it means allowing the love of your life to leave you for perhaps forever. I could go on here, but I tried to keep it short.

Min... well, I can't quite quantify why I like her so much her, so I won't try. Suffice to say she is the only non-channeler in Rand's harem, and that alone makes her a sympathetic character.
181. alreadymadwhenRhuideanburned
Aiel1219 @157
Errr.. it's not half the amount Rand put out to cleanse Saidin. By that time, Rand was closer to his full strength. At the time of his showdown with Asmodean, they are both comparatively of the same strength, and early in the next book, Rand's POV states that Asmodean's teaching him is making him stronger.

On the whole Nynaeve thing:
I still don't get why she had to leave Emond's Field in the first place. She may have gone on about looking after the boys and such. But really, are we forgetting that the three boys are all 20 years old by this time? Egwene I can understand, but twenty year olds can't be left to make their own decisions about leaving home? I think deep down, her ego told her that in taking the boys with her, Moiraine had more influence over them than her. She's never up front about it, but you can always see how envious she is of Moiraine's serenity and composure. Always so eager to lay the blame on Moiraine's feet. That's just plain petty. I don't understand how she got to be Wisdom when she does not have an ounce of sympathy for others. She never bothers to understand things from others' point of view, it's always about her.
Kurt Lorey
182. Shimrod
@181 AMW..., Weren't you ever young?

@175 subwoofer. I fear that you will be disappointed in Davram Bashere, but it's just a feeling.

Egwene wasn't made Amyrlin because she was qualified in the sense you mean. She was made Amyrlin because of her strength in the One Power, and because the Salidar sisters in charge thought her most biddable. Some surprise in store for them, heh?

@152 TAmyrlinring1. Yes, I mentioned the girl hating in a post and you should have seen the backtracking.
Jay Dauro
183. J.Dauro
Okay, I have just had a thought. (Be nice, it doesn't happen often.)

In TGH Chapter 40, when Liadrin gives the girls to Suroth, she addresses Suroth as "High Lady Suroth" in front of Nyneave. Later in the chapter Egwene comments on Liandrin and Suroth's comments of both serving the same master.

Very soon thereafter Nyneave is aware that Liandrin is a darkfriend, and so must at least suspect that Suroth is one.

KOD Chapter 20
Davrim Bashere says that they setup the DoNM meeting with High Lady Suroth. At the time he says it, Nyneave is not there, but she goes on the mission. So I would expect that sometime in the planning she hears the name Suroth.

So shouldn't Rand et al been aware that this was probably not going to be a good thing?
184. alreadymadwhenNyngotweird
J. Dauro @183
This is post-Ebou Dar Nynaeve we're talking about. Whereas before she was an annoying bully with good instincts, now she's just plain annoying. Not even in her proper wits anymore. Cadsuane did not have a high opinion of her and much as I hate to, I'd agree.
John Massey
185. subwoofer
"Everybody's waiting for me to go mad, afraid of it, but not you. You must of thought I finally was,just now, but you weren't afraid of me even then."

...long bit about crazy Marshal-General Muad Cheade chopping down oak trees and burying them...

... "Why didn't somebody do something? His family?"

"Those not as mad as he was , or madder, were afraid to look at him sideways. Tenobia's father wouldn't have let anyone touch Cheade anyway. He might have been insane, but he could out-general anyone I ever saw. He never lost a battle. He never even came close to losing."

Rand laughed. "So you follow me because you think I can out-general the Dark One?
"I follow you because you are who you are," Bashere said quietly. "The world must follow you, or those who survive will wish themselves dead."

He had me at "you are who you are". He is also one of the Five great Captains alive. I am waiting for him, Mat, Agelmar Jagad, and Gareth Bryne to meet. Would be cool. Amassing their armies, and going into the Blight to whoop butt. I dunno, a man can dream can't he?
186. Rebecca Starr
@185 that's a really great point - we wouldn't have heard about these 5 great generals all this time if it wasn't leading up to something.

Mat, Gareth, Agelmar, Davrim and Rodel Ituralde sit down in a room and plan the Last Battle... discuss!
Alan Perry
187. stepper
I always thought that was awesome scene with Bashere as well.

If I had to pick my 5 favorites.....Perrin, Mat, Moraine, Lan, Loial
188. Jordan Husband
Only one thing was overlooked in this review (and I know... you gotta cut SOMEthing!)

Wash the spears - while the sun climbs high.
Wash the spears - while the sun falls low.
Wash the spears - Who fears to die?
Wash the spears - No one I know!
Wash the spears - while life holds true.
Wash the spears - until life ends.
Wash the spears - Life is a dream.
Wash the spears - All dreams must end.
Wash the spears - till shade is gone
Wash the spears - till water turns dry.
Wash the spears - How long from home?
Wash the spears - Until I die!
Wash the spears - till sun grows cold.
Wash the spears - till water runs free.
Wash the spears...
Wash the spears - while I breathe.
Wash the spears - my steel is bright.
Wash the spears...

There are few scenes with greater dramatic effect in the series, slowly building tension and sucking you in. It's a very classic moment.
189. shsuandyman
Your description of the covert art seriously put me in a hardcore fit of laughter. I'm still giggling.
AJ MacPherson
190. Mackey62
I am trying to understand why all the resentment for Egwene. If you look at the majority of women who have been in Egwene's life for her to learn from, they have all been the types to run over anything in their way. The woman's circle, "This is Women's Circle business, Men go away or you will be kicked out of the house. Nyn, "carry a big stick and shout everyone down. Moiraine and other AS "Do as I say, don't question". The Wise Ones, "Go run around naked with ribbons in your hair to learn honor or you will be spanked". (Opps, sorry it just came out, foret I said that)Every woman, whether weak or strong in the One Power, have had these moments with her. She suddenly finds herself in the one person she has been in a power struggle and measured herself against since she was Nyn wisdom in training and she applies everything she has seen and been subject to and it works. Don't hate the player, hate the game is all I am saying.

And how does it suprise anyone the Egwene was going to be Amyrlin? IIRC, it was heavily foreshadowed by Moraine in the beginning of tGH when hiding Rand, "if she should this type of inntiative in the White Tower, she will be Amyrlin" or some such. I think SS said something similar. Also, Perrin spends one day talking to people in the TR, and he becomes a Lord. Mat spends a battle running around and becomes a general. Eg, having shown the gumption(?) and with the help of SS and Leane pulling and pushing the AS, she gets put in place as Amyrlin. I always thought it was pretty clear what was going to happen.
191. toryx
Mackey62 @190

All the reasons you name for Egwene having good reason to turn into a harsh task mistress are exactly why it annoys me so much. It's one thing to be surrounded by people who treat others that way one's whole life. It's another to be resentful of that kind of treatment and then decided that it's good enough for you to do to others.

Particularly after Egwene's independence streak on the road from Tar Valon to Tear, when she was bitching about every thing Nynaeve did. She should know as well (hell, better) as anyone how it feels to be browbeaten half to death. For her to go and turn it on others makes her every bit as bad as those who did it to her. Hell, worse, because she knows exactly how it feels.

I wasn't at all surprised that she became Amyrlin. I know foreshadowing when I see it, and it started early in TEOTW.

Despite all my complaints about Egwene (and they are many) I still prefer her to Elayne, however.
Sam Mickel
192. Samadai
no comments on my ignorance but IIRC=?
Kurt Lorey
193. Shimrod
@185 subwoofer.

You know, I have liked Davram Bashere ever since the beginning. But, little things have added up over the books subsequent to his introduction which have made me believe that we aren't going to like him for much longer.

Your ending line in the quotation, "I follow you because you are who you are," Bashere said quietly. "The world must follow you, or those who survive will wish themselves dead." Who else (who isn't an Aes Sedai or Wise One) thinks that way?

Let's wait until we are properly introduced to his character in the re-reads, then we can gnaw over this again.
James Jones
194. jamesedjones
192 Samadai

IIRC = If I Really Cared... LOL

If I Recall Correctly.
Tess Laird
195. thewindrose
192 Samadai
If I recall/remember correctly

I see jamesedjones beat me!
196. alreadymadwhenEgshutNynup
Re: Egwene dressing down Nynaeve
Oh please, it's a classic strategy, if you can't defend, attack. If you want to distract, attack.
Whoever hasn't used it before in any form, shape or manner cast the first stone.
I mean it. Practically all of us has at least once attacked someone over something so as to draw attention away from our own faults. I'm not condoning Egwene, but I don't think anybody is really in any position to condemn her for it.

And yes, I like Davram Bashere. One of the rare major characters with his head screwed on right. Besides, the guy doesn't mind following a mad Dragon since apparently, he's used to following madmen. Gotta admire the balls of a man like that.
Tess Laird
198. thewindrose
Edina sept, Minnesota Aiel

Speculation -with the cleansing of saiden, will there be male wise ones?

Davram Bashere is intriguing with Logain in the backround story, and Min has viewed Logain as someone who will be gaining glory. Will he be involved in this glory(DB)? Didn't Min also view DB as having some darkness about him, but she din't understand it?
AJ MacPherson
199. Mackey62
toryx @191

Ok, I see your point, but just like anyone else they learn from those around them and their teachers. And now lets look at her after she has been captured by the White Tower. She is bring people to her very slowly by the way she is acting like a leader should, by example, by her actions and having the confidence and aura of leadership. It is a growing process. If she just automatically became this great leader without flaws at this young age, every one would complain. Sometimes being a leader means you have to throw peopel under the bus. You can't sit and explain every action or you will do nothing else, especially with the AS. But I have a feeling that the changes you are looking for will comeforth in the end.

And why when Rand runs over everyone, nobody complains? He is a bigger bully then Nyn or Egwene, and he threatens and acts more rashly then both of the girls, but there have been no debates about that. Where is all the Rand bashing. He whines as much as anyone, he bullies as much (they just happen to be people we don't like) and when someone calls him on it, Cadsuane, everyone hates her. What would happen if someone kidnapped Min, Avi or Elayne and he had to rescue her? You think Perrin was bad? Come on. Does Rand apologize a lot for his actions? His pride gets him in as much problems as Nyn, but no one complains.

Just want everyone treated equally. There is not one character that doesn't deserve to get smacked with a big stick at some point. (And I was never the biggest fan of the supergirls, but I never disliked them.)
Galen Brinn
200. GatheringStorm
You are correct, thewindrose. Min did have a viewing of darkness around Davram.
Leigh Butler
201. leighdb
Zamit @160:

Huh. My version says:

The glass columns still stood—he was grateful for that; destroying them would have been like obliterating the history of the Aiel—but Avendesora, that had lived three thousand years in legend and truth, Avendesora blazed like a torch, and as for the rest of Rhuidean...

Guess Jordan changed his mind on that. Good catch.
Antoni Ivanov
202. tonka
@ alreadymad- yes, you are right, we,people, are hypocrite less or more in some way.It may not be exactly like Egwene but yes you are right.

193. Shimrod
Your ending line in the quotation, "I follow you because you are who you are," Bashere said
quietly. "The world must follow you, or those who
survive will wish themselves dead." Who else (who isn't an Aes Sedai or Wise One) thinks that way?

No, I cannot agree. The Aiel think almost that way. They follow Rand because who he is (chief of the chiefs). If you read Gareth Bryne's POV you will find surprising refreshing clever POV.I mean from only a few rumours he deduce what's going on and what's going to happen.He is not even fazed when he understands that the Dragon is reborn.

Bashere is not one of the Great Generals for nothing.' Neither Bryne.

There are men that can meet Aes Sedai/Wise One stare for stare
203. jlyman
@tonka 179

I was curious about this the other day and after a bit of searching I found this.
Tess Laird
204. thewindrose
Notice commentor 201.

And what was in the comments if TSR 21:

"Scheduling note: There will be no WOT Re-read post on Friday, as I want a little prep time before getting started on the next book. However, I may—MAY—have something else up for you on Friday instead, so keep an eye out, ya heard me?"

Red Herring or... will there be a blog of some kind???
205. alreadymadwhenRandbulliedtear
Actually, Rand runs over everyone so that things get done the way he wants them done. Look at the people he's dealing with, Tairen High Lords, Cairhienin Nobles, Aes Sedai.
He gives Tairen High Lords instructions to make a deal with Mayene, but when the treaty comes back to him, Tear will invade Mayene with Lord Torean in command, all with his blessings. Cairhienin nobles all swore to him. But within 4 days of his being kidnapped one of them decided to take the throne. And never mind what happens when he tries to order Aes Sedai around.
Note that his treatment of these groups are different from the way he treats Aiel clan chiefs, or Wise Ones, or his own friends, including Bashere. Unless they try to use the Power on him, that is.
Rand's only fault is that he has gotten so used to this kind of treatment that he even treats those who are on his side the same way. Logain for instance.
Alan Perry
206. stepper

thanks. WHHOA! Major news if correct...Rand and Egwene will be the focus ot TGS per that site!

I wonder if that is official info, or conjecture based on the last book? Anyone know?
Galen Brinn
207. GatheringStorm
leighdb said
Zamit @160:

Huh. My version says:

The glass columns still stood—he was grateful for that; destroying them would have been like obliterating the history of the Aiel—but Avendesora, that had lived three thousand years in legend and truth, Avendesora blazed like a torch, and as for the rest of Rhuidean...

Guess Jordan changed his mind on that. Good catch.

I have the trade paperback version of TSR (the only trade paperback version of any of the books I own) and it is the version like Zamit's where Avendesora is relatively unscathed. I never could reconcile this with the beginnings of TFH where Rand's POV says that Moiraine indicates that while heavily damaged, the tree would live.
Jay Dauro
208. J.Dauro
jlyman @203

Thanks for finding that, I had seen it before, but couldn't remember which characters it mentioned.

Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn, struggles to unite a fractured network of kingdoms and alliances in preparation for the Last Battle. As he attempts to halt the Seanchan encroachment northward---wishing he could form at least a temporary truce with the invaders---his allies watch in terror the shadow that seems to be growing within the heart of the Dragon Reborn himself.

Egwene al’Vere, the Amyrlin Seat of the rebel Aes Sedai, is a captive of the White Tower and subject to the whims of their tyrannical leader. As days tick toward the Seanchan attack she knows is imminent, Egwene works to hold together the disparate factions of Aes Sedai while providing leadership in the face of increasing uncertainty and despair.

So if I was to guess which two plot arcs will spend the most time in TGS, I might say Rand and Egwene. I really would have preferred Mat and Perin, but I guess they got a whole lot more screen time in KOD than Rand and Egwene.
Sam Mickel
209. Samadai
I also have the original hardback version that has Avendesora relatively unscathed. I had to do a double take and go back and reread tSR to see if I misremembered
Michael Catapano
211. hoping
re avendesora

My version of tSR (post51) has the same as passage about the damage to avendesora as does Leighs' (#201).
My version of tFoH has the following description of avendesora in chapter 2:
In the center of the plaza, near the burned remains of a great tree a hundred feet high,...

and later...

...The burned tree mocked him. Avendesora, the legendary Tree of Life; the stories never said where it was, and it had been a surprise to find it here. Moiraine said it still lived, that it would put out shoots again, but so far he saw only blackened bark and bare branches.

Does anyone have a different description?
212. DannySaiz
Ahhh crap! I'm all caught up. Gone are the days of reading 4 to 5 of leigh brilliants posts a day. Now I have to wait patiently for the Mon/Wed/Fri posts like everyone elst. What!?!?!? No Friday post this week!?!?!?
213. Digital_Eon
I have the version of Avendesora being burned, too (had to buy another copy of TSR last year; damn those weak covers!). I must've missed the part about Moiraine saying it would live in TFoH, though! Thank goodness it'll live.

Favourite characters: I got six. Aviendha, Rand, Egwene, Tuon, Moridin, Asmodean... Actually, I think those flaws Mackey62 mentioned @199 are actually why I like Rand in later books. He's horribly flawed, he seems mad at times, and that makes for a very interesting character. I do miss the sweet Rand of earlier chapters, though.

And by the way, here is the Min hater of this re-read. I can't stand the woman. Sure, she does awesome things, but I find it awfully hard to read her PoVs when all she thinks about is Rand, and curses him for making her love him. I'm just re-reading TFoH now, but what really got me fired up was how she didn't want to serve Bryne because it meant she couldn't be with Rand. This behaviour might be somewhat more tolerable from a teenager, but she's almost Nynaeve's age! Geez.

There are probably other reasons too, but I am hardly a careful enough reader to articulate them. Have fun with the Min-love after this. :P
James Jones
214. jamesedjones
212 Danny

No Monday, either. It's a holiday. Bleh.
James Jones
215. jamesedjones
213 Digital_Eon

That's the spirit! We've got to keep these love/hate discussions going if we're ever going to top 800 before Leigh's next post. Everyone, to your... keyboards?
216. toryx
Mackey62 @199

Oh, I love the chapters where Egwene is captured in the Tower and becoming an honest to light leader. She rocks then. Truth is, everyone people might dislike tends to rock at some point (even if in an evil fashion).

I'd have to say that I don't outright hate Egwene or any of the girls (although Elayne gets me close sometimes). But I became incredibly disappointed with her after she emotionally beat the crap out of Nynaeve and continued to do so, to the point of being disappointed when Nynaeve isn't available for her to walk all over. That made me pretty angry because I thought she should have been above such petty responses and emotions.

And why when Rand runs over everyone, nobody complains? He is a bigger bully then Nyn or Egwene, and he threatens and acts more rashly then both of the girls, but there have been no debates about that. Where is all the Rand bashing.

Well with Rand it's a lot different because, A: He's the hero and B: He's the one guy who has to do what he's doing with very little hope of reward in the end. He kind of earns the right to push people around when everything he does is aimed at saving the lives of as many people as he can at the cost of his own.

Personally, I'm in the contingent that believes that his "blood on the rocks of Shayul Ghul" is misinterpreted, and that he's not actually going to die, or at least not permanently. Still, I'm willing to give anyone a lot of flack who is walking to certain disaster.

On top of that, Rand gets the most crap of everyone. One of his oldest, friends doesn't want to be anywhere near him, his first love is constantly chastising him over things she doesn't understand (being mean to Aviendha) without giving him the benefit of the doubt even once, more people want him dead or tamed than even know Egwene or Nynaeve exist, and on top of that it's been proven that he can trust virtually no one.

Pushing people around is one thing, but being constantly betrayed (in small ways and large) by people you've known all your life is another.

Personally, I think he gets treated more poorly than anyone, for all that he's the Lord Dragon and He Who Comes With the Dawn. I (and I suspect a lot of others) think he's being far more gentle with people like Egwene, Moiraine and the Wise Ones than most of us would be. That's why there aren't a lot of rant-fests about him. His turn will come, however.

(Oh, and for the record, I think Perrin's great. I have no bones to pick with him, except that he's not pushy enough.)
AJ MacPherson
217. Mackey62
213 Digital_Eon

I agree with you about the flaws. I was just trying to point out that every character has flaws and many have the same flaws. And how some characters are hated and others loved.

I am getting ready for the first person with the "I really hate Mat" rant. We just might get to 10,000 the real way if that happens.
218. Freelancer

Yes, Someshta is pure. He is also a construct (which always seemed odd, a non-organic "organic" creature).


You mentioned the five great living captains, then left out Rodel Ituralde. One of the subthreads that I am very much anticipating is how Rand deployed folks to Almoth Plain, and how it ends up meshing with what The Little Wolf has accomplished in his guerilla campaign against the Seanchan.

RE: Comparing Egwene's harshness to Nynaeve's

They don't match, not even close. I've already said that her initial reason for making the attempt was selfish misdirection, but once she learned that it worked on Nynaeve, she continues it. However serendipitously she learned the button to press to put Nynaeve in line, the fact is that Nynaeve needed to be faced with her own hypocrisy, and this method squares her up, not because of Egwene, but because of herself, her own previously unadmitted guilt of her behavior.

Now, where else does Egwene "bully" her way through things with this method?

I've no issue with her on this matter at all.

RE: Rand bullying people

Yes, he threatens and bullies the High Lords in Tear. Note that he also hates having to deal with them that way, but they are a disgusting little oligarchy, they just won't listen, and he has no time to be diplomatic (that's his own sense, not mine, and he repeats it every few thoughts). Similar issues, similar reasons, in Cairhien. Wherever the nobility believes itself possessed of rights far above the common man, Rand brings them down hard. As well he should.

Yes, he has made himself too hard. Yes, because of various levels of mistreatment at the hands of Aes Sedai (including Moiraine and Cadsuane), he has no trust left except toward a very few (Minaviyne, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, Lan). The secret to proper analysis of this behavior is his motivation. What is Rand trying to accomplish? All he cares about is winning TG. He's ready to die, he's ready to fight. And he'll do what he believes is right for the Light to prevail.
James Jones
219. jamesedjones
218 Freelancer

God bless ya for the new ID: Minaviyne. I will be using it in the future.
John Massey
220. subwoofer
@Free, was not actually talking of a meeting of the Great Captains- just the guys I like. But I did leave out Rhuarc, so my bad. Somebody has to represent for the Aiel. I am more partial to the Borderland countries myself because they are living cheek and jowl with the Shadow-scum forever and they safe-guard it for everyone else.
Alice Arneson
221. Wetlandernw
You know, there's a real drawback to being one of those people who sees both sides of the situation. (In this case, Egwene & Nynaeve.) You tend to jump in on the side of whoever got attacked first (by the commenters, I mean), to explain why that person isn't as bad as they are being presented. Then everyone automatically assumes you hate the other party.

What's really funny about the past discussion of E&N is that I could have taken the part of either character with equal facility. It's not that I think either is perfect, or necessarily right in what they do. It's just that I understand their perspectives and why they do what they do. What's really annoying is that I can do that for about 90% of the characters 95% of the time. So I find myself standing for the defense most of the time, and only once or twice in this whole blog have I stood for the prosecution. *sigh*

Or maybe I'm just argumentative and like to play DA. Could be that. ;)

Anyway, I still maintain that it's one of the chief things that made RJ an excellent writer. We keep thinking of these characters as real people. It's either awesome or pathetic, depending on how you look at it.
AJ MacPherson
222. Mackey62
Freelancer @ 218

"And he'll do what he believes is right for the Light to prevail."

I think that could be said about all 6 of the main characters. Egwene would never try to become Amyrlin if not to help Rand. Her number 1 goal is to help Rand. How? Bring the White Tower together. Will that conflict with Rand, some, but the goal is the same.

She was going to be Amyrlin, but how effective would she have been if Nyn thinks Egwene is still her apprentice wisdom? Could it have been done nicer, sure. But it had to be done. Still talking about a 16 year old girl, who is watching day by day the man she thought would spend the rest of her life, but now loves as a brother, change, who she thinks will die saving the world, going mad. She has a lot to deal with also.

Just asking for everyone not to be so judgmental. If every character acted perfectly, WOT would have been a trilogy. Rand would talk to Perrin and Mat continuously, plan out how everything would work out, go kick ass and be home for dinner. But RJ wrote these characters as real as he could. Who hasn't met a 16 year old testing or pushing the buttons of her mother? Who hasn't known that young guy with money burning a hole in his pocket, going out and partying everynight? Who hasn't known the person who is always right and never listens to anyone until someone yanks her up short? Do we dismiss everyone who has made one mistake? The flaws and humanity is what makes RJ and the WOT great. (Also what causes the gringing halt coming up regarding action, but that is another point).

Wow, didn't realize that soap box was that high. Ahh, the next in line can hop up if they like.
Sydo Zandstra
223. Fiddler

I imagine the thoughts going on in a male forsaken's mind during the Rand/Asmo throwdown would resemble the following:

::Holy crap! I haven't felt weaves like that since before the 3000 year nap.::

::I can't believe that anybody of this age knows how to do that, and nobody of any age is strong enough unaided for me to feel a thing from such a distance. That means Lews Therin, and probably also one of us is involved, as well as a major sa'angreal::

::Should I go check it out? Nope, not getting within five leagues of an untrained channeler with access to that much Power, nor making myself a target for another Chosen on True Source steroids::

Exactly, and it's in character with the remaining male Forsaken. Rahvin and (especially) Sammael are defensively inclined, working from a built-up power base. Demandred works through proxies. None of them would be able to see what's happening there directly, nor would be wanting to face somebody with the amount of Saidin being used there...

On why the Female Choedan Kal was destroyed during the Cleansing of Saidin:

Could this be a side effect of Saidar being used as a filterering tube to cleanse Saidin of the taint? I know the taint was aimed at Shadar Logoth in that scene, but some of it must have been able to get in contact with the saidar tube.


Also, who at this point thought that Couladin would meet his end at Mat's hands? That was kind of a curveball. It makes me wonder who gets to take care of the remaining baddies, ie Masema, Luc/Isam, Fain. I would guess Perrin, Lan, and Rand respectively, but that is why Couladin/Mat is so neat to me. The obvious match-ups may not work out so obviously.

My guesses would be:

Rand taking out Masema. Rand's the only one that cannot be accused of being a DF or a DR-non-believer. And IMHO, Rand is responsible for Masema getting out of hand, by not acting earlier by himself, instead of sending out Perrin to do it. I'm sure he could have spared a day to find him and deal with him, in between his jumps between Caemlyn and Cairhien.

Fain will take out Shaidar Haran, then be killed by Slayer, who will be killed by Lan ;-)

Mat and Perrin will be in the thick of battling regular armies and a Forsaken or two...


I also think that we need Egwene firmly in place in Tar Valon for the climactic scene between her and Rand. I'm not saying we will see that in tGS, I'm just saying Ewene needs to be in place for it. Would the "black ajah hunters" be considered a third plotline? IF so, we will see a lot of that long before we see Egwene.

I'm reading LoC at the moment, and there is a prophecy about the unstained Tower submitting to the DR (emphasis mine). Rand thinks that means the White Tower (because it's white). I think that it's the White Tower after the Black Ajah has been rooted out. So I expect the BA Hunters/Egwene threads to merge. (There could even be a parallel with what'll happen at the Black Tower)


And why when Rand runs over everyone, nobody complains? He is a bigger bully then Nyn or Egwene, and he threatens and acts more rashly then both of the girls, but there have been no debates about that.

I am not complaining on this, because Egwene consistently keeps thinking about Rand being woolheaded and becoming more and more arrogant, reading every political remark/decision he makes in the wrong way, even where Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs agree with him. Where others (including Elayne) see Rand as a leader who has to make some harsh decisions at times, she keeps on seeing him as a boy with too many big toys.
Jay Dauro
224. J.Dauro
Mackey62 @222

If every character acted perfectly, WOT would have been a trilogy.

And this would have been bad because?

Actually, I have loved every book (I did start late, so the only one I had to wait for is AMoL. This tends to reduce the anger at the later books.)
AJ MacPherson
225. Mackey62
J. Dauro @ 224

Well played.

If it was only a Trilogy there would be a lot less twitching and would not have nightmares whenever Leigh has the following words in her post: "There will be no post on __________"
226. Wolfmage
alreadymadwhenNyngotweird @ 184.

"I don't understand how she got to be Wisdom when she does not have an ounce of sympathy for others."

You must be reading another series or you're just grossly exaggerating. She demonstrates sympathy for others all the time, particularly Rand.

"Cadsuane did not have a high opinion of her and much as I hate to, I'd agree."

I think that's wrong. I don't have the exact quote, but to paraphrase, she explicitly remarks that "the girl" has some good mettle in her and a brain when she chooses to use it. That's actually pretty high praise from Cadsuane, who is pretty full of her own gravitas, and also taking inot account Nynaeve's age and the fact that RJ starts writer her with addled wits as a newly wed at this stage of the story.

Besides when did Cadsuane become the last word on on such matters? She may be suitably aligned with respected super seniors like Amys and Sorilia, and she may have a pro-light agenda we trust - but that doesn't mean her acerbity to other characters is an indication of lack of virtue. Everything about Cadsuane is calculated puff - she pushes to test Rand and other sisters all the time, just to see whether they have backbone and can control their emotions.

As far as her own character goes, she is flawed like everyone else - sharing both common Aes Sedai and Far Madding prejudices all together.
Tony Zbaraschuk
227. tonyz
The Egwene chapters in KOD are where I really started saying to myself, "Yeah, wow, the old Jordan is back, who did plot suggestion instead of over-elaboration, and really keen character work instead of three books of angst." I am so looking forward to The Gathering Storm.
228. alreadymadwhenRandturnednuts
Mackey62 @222
Egwene may have joined the White Tower out of a desire to help Rand. But her loyalty and attention now is solidly for the White Tower.

Fiddler @223
The girl is just jealous of the boy. In all these POV's she's the only one who thinks him arrogant. Why? Because he doesn't show her proper deference. Because he doesn't show the Aes Sedai proper deference. Why should he? Until he forced those idiot women to bend the knee to him they caused him nothing but trouble. She constantly tries to assume a position of seniority over him no matter how unwarranted or uncalled for. True to Nynaeve's teaching she has no inkling of how to sympathize with Rand's burden. Her time with the Wise Ones was the best thing that happened to her.
Alice Arneson
229. Wetlandernw
Mackey62 @ 222
Well said. Thanks.

alreadymadwhenNyngotweird @ 184.

I don't understand how she got to be Wisdom when she does not have an ounce of sympathy for others.

I don't think sympathy for others has much to do with someone being chosen as Wisdom. In the Two Rivers, it's all about "listening to the wind" as they call it (it's really channeling ability), and Nynaeve was super-qualified in that regard. She really could "listen to the wind" to determine upcoming weather and a lot of other things, and she displayed significant skills in other things a Wisdom was supposed to be able to do. I suspect her teacher also could channel and recognized it in Nynaeve, which is why she was apprenticed in her teens. The fact that she was made Wisdom so young was an unexpected event caused by the death of the previous Wisdom, but it was already clear that she was qualified, and much more so than anyone else around. Presumably, Nynaeve also recognized the spark in Egwene (even though she didn't know what it was), which is why she was becoming the new apprentice.
Hugh Arai
230. HArai
Wolfmage @ 221

So I find myself standing for the defense most of the time, and only once or twice in this whole blog have I stood for the prosecution. *sigh*

*cough* Gawyn *cough*

Seriously though, I have to agree with you and many others here. All the characters have their ups and downs. Most of them have a tremendous amount of upside. The most frustrating parts for me are all the "do as I say not as I do" behaviors,
and certainly pretty much every one is guilty of those. I can understand why it happens, but still...arrgh!

I think the women frustrate me more simply because they have seem to have the most opportunity to communicate and the most information to share and don't. When I consider just how much knowledge the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones have at their disposal and essentially refuse to share over faction issues (Hello? The world is ending!) it's just depressing. Rand is the worst of the men for this but at least with him it tends to be "I'll share with you if you share with me". It's just that no one shares with him. The men become more frustrating as well as they gain knowledge but since the majority of the ones with power are going insane, those ones at least have a bit of an out.

As for why Rand doesn't get much hate from readers: Well, for me it's simple. The poor guy got volunteered to be the saviour AND destroyer of the world and when he finally accepted it, it turned out that no one was going to tell him anything or do anything he asked without arguing ever again. If he doesn't have the right to be cranky who does? Does he make lots of mistakes? Hell yes. Can I cut him some slack? yep.
231. Yep.
Well, also Rand doesn't tell people things because he simply can't. He doesn't know who to trust and not to trust, so he doesn't tell people what his intentions are for good reason, nor communicate with others and this just makes sense.

The other characters shouldn't have that many issues about it though.
Antoni Ivanov
232. tonka
203. jlyman

If what it's written is true then Mat's plotline is left aside . We won't see Moiraine back this book *weeps silently*
Roger Powell
233. forkroot

Everything about Cadsuane is calculated puff - she pushes to test Rand and other sisters all the time, just to see whether they have backbone and can control their emotions.

Nicely written!

When I examine why I personally like Cadsuane, it comes down to two things. One is her ability to puncture pretense, the other is her insistence on manners (admittedly she skates the line in her own manners at times!)

In my own real-world situation, where I must politely avoid pointing out gross incompetence at my place of employment, it's easy to dream of a hero or heroine who would lance those boils at once :-)

Similarly, as I deal with our increasingly coarse society every day, it's nice to dream of the unmannerly being upbraided rather sharply.

To ramble somewhat far afield ... that was one of the many attractive attributes of Albus Dumbledore - he never lost his genteel manner.
Alice Arneson
234. Wetlandernw
HArai @230

Actually that was Wetlander, not Wolfmage, claiming to be for the defense instead of the prosecution. I haven't done a count, so I won't speak for anyone else's legal stats. :)
Hugh Arai
235. HArai

My apologies to both you and Wolfmage. I'd like to have a good excuse but.. I got nothing.

@188: I loved that scene. I thought it really drove home just how militant the Aiel actually are. Up till that point I had trouble seeing how they would rather die than accept the revelations at Rhuidean. After that I could see how Rand could break them with the Leaf.
Richard Fife
236. R.Fife
@31 Helen: Wow, I am deeply honored. Like, really. Alas, my work has been bending me over its knee and.... So yeah, I am hideously behind on reading. On lark I just did a vanity search for fife in the thread and saw reference. So, for invoking me:

My take on why Asmo waited: Coward is being cow'd by the Cow (Lanfear). She's the second strongest of the Forsaken, and now that Ishy is (currently) dead, she is the strongest. Asmo is near the bottom of that totem pole, so she can probably boss his pansy ass around pretty easy. I have a feel many of those argument they were having even was about giving up on LTT-turning and heading off to Rhuidean for a treasure-trove attack.

Additionaly, I think fear of Rhuidean kept him out. A place that cannot be entered in T'A'R is no joke, and for all he knows, whatever it is in there that kills 1-in-3 men attacks all men, not just ones going in for Clan Chiefs.

Why right at Alcair Dar? Because that seriously is exactly when Rand would be the easiest distracted with the whole Couladin thing, it was when Asmo finally worked up the cajones to go into the city, not to mention to flip Lanfear the bird and go on his way. Again: he's a coward, probably moreso than Moggy. On an aside, I think it was a rather sweet character development when he does start to grow a pair and even willingly goes to Caemlyn to help fight, regarless of Rand not asking him too.

As to why Rand was able to re-enter, I don't think the razor weaves were a trap to keep men from coming in twice. As it was pointed out (in the little reading of this tread I did), they appear to have been Saidin, and I was under the impression that the Breaking was well over when the pact of Rhuidean was made, meaning no male Aes Sedai left to contribute to the mists. Those, I think, were pure Saidar.

I would not be surprised if it is more or less superstitious bubkis about twice for a man is death, and thrice for a woman. Probably just to keep people from poking their noses around, and dual entry into the rings or pillars would probably be fatal too, not that anyone actually taking part in that would dare. In general, though, the Aiel are a pretty superstitous lot. Look how they act around Aes Sedai and such.

So, I think any man could actually "enter" the city as often as he wanted without harm, just like I say "I believe in Bloody Mary" in a bathroom mirror three times in the dark and be safe. (Note, I have not and oddly will not do such. maybe I'm superstitious too). The Mists and the anti-TAR protection just got cluster-bombed by Rand and Asmo's flailing fight. After all, you can cut saidar with saidin no problem, long as you know where to aim. Well, they were aiming everywhere.

And that is my Tar Valon Mark.

Oh, and Sub, I don't know what you're talking about *whistles innocently*
Don Barkauskas
237. bad_platypus

On why the Female Choedan Kal was destroyed during the Cleansing of Saidin:

Could this be a side effect of Saidar being used as a filterering tube to cleanse Saidin of the taint? I know the taint was aimed at Shadar Logoth in that scene, but some of it must have been able to get in contact with the saidar tube.

IMHO it seems more likely that it was saidar that was actually being channeled to do something, while (once momentum got going) saidin was just siphoned through. So only saidar was being constrained to a certain weave for the entire Cleansing, which would undoubtedly put more strain on it.
James Jones
238. jamesedjones
Hey, R.Fife's back. And no Youtube links, who'd a thunk it? Thanks for the analysis of the Rhuidean blockage. Pretty simple with no missing pieces (like most of RJ's explanations). At least those explanations from the creator that I remember...

237 Duck_Beaver (can't spell platathingy)

You have to wonder about that saidar sa'angreal. As far as we know, aside from a very brief, stupid experiment from our favorite cushy riding passenger, the sa'angreal was only used once. And that was the only time it was ever used in the real world. There are any number of possibilities for it. The most interesting for me center on the use.

What if it melted because the weaves were pushed to their limits by a man instead of a woman? What it melted as saidar surrendered as a way of controlling saidin? What if Nyneave were pushed past her limit for saidar, and the saftey cap caused the thing to melt?

And I really like the idea posted earlier about the taint being pushed through the tube, and having something to do with the destruction.
239. Valan
@ Mackey62

God help anybody that gets on here with an "'I really hate Mat' rant." Why? Cause damn.

I am of the theory that the Saidar CK melted because it was really cool, in a very morbid fashion. *dodges all intellegent theories and looks wild-eyed for an escape from*
- Apparently there is none.

Hmmm, actually I'm of the opinion that more Saidar was used than the Sa'angreal was supposed to handle. Since Rand held the flows it didn't burn Nynaeve out. Or I'm completely wrong
240. jafco
@186. Rebecca Starr

"...Mat, Gareth, Agelmar, Davrim and Rodel Ituralde sit down in a room and plan the Last Battle... discuss!..."

There will be some others in that tent: Rhuarc et al., probably a Seanchan general or six, and ALUDRA! ;) She's going to be the mother of artillery - the Queen of Battles!

From above somewhere: 4 plot lines? If one thinks of plot lines as broad rivers, yes I think so. But Mat, for one, has got to rescue Moiraine with Thom and others, and do something I suppose to aid Tuon back in Seanchan (losing an eye? or is just going south of the Equator "losing half the light of the world"?) before beating it back north to be at the big Battle Meeting.

Rand may have to off Taim and take control of the Black Tower before T'G, but otherwise he's got to tie off lots of loose ends in three books before the Final Solution (like what the hell is the entire defense force of the Borderlands doing in Andor? And what's all the to do in Arad Doman? And where's good old Ordeith/Fain/nutcase?)

Then there's Lan rounding up all the Malkieri and marching on Tarwin's Gap or wherever. And on and on. Perrin's got to get some nookie then get on the road to meet Rand somewhere with about six different armies under his command, all staring daggers at one another.

These are going to be some weighty books, each maybe bigger that tSR, and we haven't scratched the surface of the Black Ajah hunt, the White Tower reunification, the Prophet, Andor resolved, and how to restore Perrin's senses after Faile dances the sa'sarra for him.

Good fun. Only Leigh's reread keeps me sane!
241. Valan
@ 186 and 240.

That is going to be a grand meeting. I would add to that list Galad and Gawyn.
Wow, congratulations Gawyn bashers, there was a time when I would have written his name down first.
242. Nyneaveismygirl
Just a little searching here for Leigh and she did post something today:


It is about the new comics coming our way from the Dabel Brothers and has an interview with the artist for the comics and writer of it. Good stuff
John Massey
243. subwoofer
@jlyman203- thanks:) Makes me actually impatient for November to come. The bit about Egwene and the Seanchan fits. On the art for the map of WoT there is Tar Valon, plain as day and soldiers with bug- helmets surrounding it. Seems to fit. And I can't remember the literary references where Eg gets her intel from.

As for ol' Rand- yeah, I cut him some slack. I said this in a previous post but it bares repeating. Rand, at the age of 20- a virgin- gets some harsh news- BTW you're Jesus... and anyone who saw "The Passion..." or read the book, knows that it didn't go well for him. Same for Rand, he's studying flippin' prophecies on how he will die...not necessarily bed time reading material... That would make me a bit edgy.

The whole
Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

I'd be pointing at the guy beside me going- no, you mean him->
And I also feel that Rand is harder on himself than he is on anyone else.
Alice Arneson
244. Wetlandernw

One teensy correction:

BTW you're Jesus... and anyone who saw "The Passion..." or read the book, knows that it didn't go well for him

Actually, it did. It went exactly as He planned, and He won...
John Massey
245. subwoofer
Yes, am aware:)... but there was a few days where things really sucked for him... Don't want to get too deep with this, not the forum for religious debate, just pointing out that Rand knows he's going to die, and this is a really long garden scene where he's got to be thinking, I could of raised sheep...
Alice Arneson
246. Wetlandernw
this is a really long garden scene where he's got to be thinking, I could of raised sheep...


Yeah, I'll bet those sheep sound awfully nice right about here.

Sorry; I've said before I won't get into theology on this forum, but somehow I couldn't let it pass. Maybe I am just argumentative. Never thought so before. Alternatively, maybe it's the "ooh-ooh girl" coming out and correcting people's grammar again. Ick. I'll duck back under my umbrella now and shut up.


Yeah right. I've also got some really nice waterfront property near Cold Rocks Hold.
John Massey
247. subwoofer
No problem... to lighten the mood... it's late and remember viewers, some of this language is disturbing...

Back to WoT... @jafco... yup, there are many story lines to tie up. It will be interesting to see what is picked up and what is dropped. I am wanting the big fight scene, I believe someone said in a previous post that it would last for all of the last book and be titled Tarmon Gai'don.

In the last few books it seems like Shadow spawn take a back seat to political intrigue and human foes. What drew me in to RJ's world was the fantasy aspect of good and evil in very clear lines. But as I read on I realized that that line blurs and good can be corrupted, and what was pure can be tainted. It seems to be a constant theme. Extreme purity can be considered evil too. As a reader I am thinking to myself- self, is there anything good that can come out of this? Is there anything good in the WoT world? RAFO.

edit- jafco, re-read the bit about losing half the light of the world... that's something nobody came up with! Maybe Mat has to leave his world to save/ rule everything. Has possibilities...
John Massey
248. subwoofer
And I am thinking that there will be a battle between factions of the Black tower. Taim's guys vs. Logain's. May be like LTT's 100 companions breaking up the land.

- and thanks to Leigh, every time I laugh my ass off I will picture this.
John Massey
249. subwoofer
Come to think of it- and I can't remember what I had for breakfast, so remembering something in a 11 issue series is a herculean feat- was there ever a scene in any of the books where Rand welcomes Logain to the tower? Any kind of hey, I remember seeing you while I was captured and your aura burned as bright as the sun, or Taim's running the show right now, but I trust him as far as I could bowl him without the power, so watch your back...
Richard Fife
250. R.Fife
Hmmmm interesting.

Oh, as to the female Choden Kal melting: could just be that it was faulty. Not like, you know, they ever tested the durn thing. One must wonder, would it have f'd up in the same manner (and perhaps early) if it had been used back in the AoL to seal the Bore or make the temp prison around it. Talk about ka-bloomies.
John Massey
251. subwoofer
Mr.Fife- much preferred this version of rick-rolled!

The other thing I was thinking was- so the female CK is melted- at least part of it. Does that mean it's useless? That is still a large quantity of cuendillar amassed. Can't it hold some Saidar, maybe not as much as before, but if they find the other female key, would it work again? Maybe Eg, using her chain to cuendillar power to fix things. Just a thought.
Richard Fife
252. R.Fife
When is it said that the CK are made of cuendillar? I know the sad bracelets are, but not all *angreal are heartstone, else we wouldn't see broken ones. And, as for "can it work some", I have always thought of angreal as pipe-line machines. If any part of the pipe is broken, the whole thing is useless. Kinda like if part of your car engine is melted, the rest is pretty well worthless slag too.

Semi-related, I am also of the opinion that making the CK mega-huge was more of a secondary choice. If the ring of tamyrlin is supposed to be between Callandor and the CK in strength (according to our limited "maybe it was" glossary info), then size does not seem to be directly related to power. The CK were most likely made big to hinder them from being easily used. A security measure, so to speak, along with putting the access-buffer in the ter'angreals instead of the CK themselves.
253. RobSS

Goodpoint. I was thinking that Elane will either fix it or make a new key. Yea supergirls.
John Massey
254. subwoofer
@R.Fife - interesting... am scouring wikis and Tar Valon to find an answer but hmmmmm... I was always under the impression that it was the reason why angreal have not been made for a very long time... because the art of making cuendillar was lost. I have been wrong before...

The CK themselves may function though. Rand did tap the male one without using a key before. The keys just act as filters for the staggering amount of power. Kinda like the flaw with Callandor. I don't know if the car engine is how sa'angreal work. I was thinking of it like a sword. Even if the blade is broken, it does not mean the shards can't cut you... And maybe it could be reforged.

I think if any of the female Forsaken had a plan, that would be it. And back to the Egwene thing.
John Massey
255. subwoofer
And for the rest of us that were clueless...
Richard Fife
256. R.Fife
I'd agree to the sword thing if I was of the impression that size mattered, but again, it would seem not since we've seen angreal of numerous shapes and sizes. Also, if you even want to think in the engineering sense that would be a bit more accurate, think about an amp for a guitar. If one of the coils melts, kinda screws it over entirely.

Oh, and I am combining my assumption of the Ring as a super-sa'angreal both on Tolkienisk hat's offishness from RJ, the definition from To the Blight, and Lanfear's mention that there are /two/ sa'angreals that men can use that are stronger than callandor.

Also, I think there is a reference somewhere to how absolutely dangerous any broken *angreal can be, both from AS during one of their training monologues and from Lanfear talking to Rand here. Not only would the apparently complex and dangerous access key need fixed (I give it such designation as it was a secret research facility in the AoL that had to make them), but so would the CK, which one could also imagine is a mite-bit harder to make than a little dream-ring or a'dam. Heck, sa'angreal/angreal would seem to be crazy-hard to make regardless, since there are snot-loads of ter'angreals around, but so few angreal/sa'angreal.

I guess what I'm getting at is: I think the female CK is straight up out of commision until it gets rebuilt in 6 ages.
John Massey
257. subwoofer
Right... but you can swap out a coil/ transistor/ solenoid in an amp and get it working again. What I am getting at is that there has to be a reason for Eg to rediscover such a lost Talent and although cleansing Sadin was monumental, I feel that there has to be more for the CK.

There has to be a reason that women can channel and link and men can't. I was thinking that it may be like a Bowl of the Winds thing. To redeem themselves, Eg rebuilds the female CK and unites 13 sisters- maybe the senior Sitters in the Hall and has them channel through the other female access key.

You are correct that Sa'angreal are extremely rare. I feel that it lends more to the craftsman aspect. What I mean is, there was only one Da Vinci and it took him time to do some of his greatest works. So to properly create something that draws in so much power, and have it be done right, it would take an extraordinary skill to do it. Enter one of ENEMA.
Roger Powell
258. forkroot
If we're talking rediscovering lost talents and fixing the female CK, then we have three supergirls that may come into the picture. We know that Eg rediscovered how to make cuendillar, that Elayne has rediscovered how to make (some) ter'angreal and Avienda has (re)discovered a talent for discerning the function of ter'angreal.

Obviously Eg's discovery has already been important in the plot line and I imagine RJ was setting up for the other two gals and their skills to play some key (npi) role.
Richard Fife
259. R.Fife
Interesting posits. That Eg will have time is yet to be seen. And the reason she rediscovered heartstone was so I could have my bunker ;) I would think more of Elayne with her *angreal making, and it has been let slip that she is already right where she needs to be for TG, while everyone else needs to play catch up. So hrmm

but, we shall just have to RAFO.
John Massey
260. subwoofer
Yes- this is what I was referring to before when I was saying that it would be interesting to see what plot lines are picked up and what will be dropped.

I think that RJ was going somewhere as Forkroot pointed out... And we know that the next book is focused on Rand and Eg. Rand has to deal with being a pirate, maybe he gets a patch over one eye, maybe he gets a parrot. Eg gets Gawyn to replace Silviana's spankings with his own as she overthrows Elaida...
261. alreadymadwhenEggotspanked
subwoofer @260
No, no. Gawyn won't replace Silviana in the Mistress of Novices' study. He'll replace Egwene. After all, if any one of them deserves a good spanking it's Gawyn.
John Massey
262. subwoofer
@alreadymadwhenmomspilledthebeansonsanta- I ventured onto another blog post and the subject of spankings seems to be dangerous ground for some. Me- 10 foot pole- posting. Things are much happier here.

Gawyn getting spanked? I dunno if BS has any plans for him but RJ must of had some retribution in store for the overthrow of the Tower. I think Gawyn is one of the people who dies. Rand probably goes through the forms with him. Causing a huge rift between him and Egwene... I know I am going on down a dark road but in WoT as in LoTR things are always darkest before the turning of the tide... and Moiraine the White(TM) reappears.

I am curious how BS will write out the overthrowing of the Tower. RJ chose the Ghandi approach of passive resistance and I am interested to see if there is another coupe with the Sisters fighting- Novices and Accepted vs full Sisters...

I see by the amount of traffic that many people are enjoying the American long weekend:) With exception to a few of the Dedicated who still are around.
263. jkanavar
I'm not sure about everyone else, but once we get past 200 comments, it's a little daunting! It seems like a lot of the good discussion can get lost in 1000+ comments. Any takers on the idea of adding a new section to Leigh's post where 'we' recap the key discussion points from the previous post's comments? Maybe I'm just being lazy...
Luke M
264. lmelior
In the beginning Leigh read all the comments, though I highly doubt she continues to do so (I only read all of the comments if I have some down time at work, which hasn't been the case lately). Still, when she does find something in the comments worth sharing in the re-read, she does bring it up.


Just wanted to pop in and say that I positively devoured the first Mistborn book. The pacing was great, the plot was great, and "magic" system was very interesting. It's the only novel of his I've read so far but I can confirm that he definitely knows how to end a book. I finished this morning and spent the rest of the day envisioning scenes from it while out running errands. Can't wait to dig into the sequel.

Highly recommended.
265. alreadymadwhenR&Ggotiton
What? Rand go through the forms with Gawyn? Have you forgotten about Rand's missing dragon.. err hand? Besides, I've already commented in an earlier thread about how such an encounter will go down. It goes something like this.

Gawyn: Rand al'Thor, you killed my mother, prepare to die.

Egwene: Gawyn, you bloody oaf, you promised not to go after him without proof.

Elayne: Gawyn, you mulehead, don't kill the father of my children.

Galad: Gawyn, don't be absurd. Of course he did not kill mother.

Rand: You are right. I let your mother die. I killed her as surely as if I stabbed her myself. I am prepared to die.
John Massey
266. subwoofer
@jkanavar- see me @249-The toughest thing I am finding about the multiple posts is keeping track of bookmarks and things that I have said in past posts. I went back to TSR 9 while I was in Jamaica and it seems like I missed a huge hot button topic about spanking. Will get into that later, but as for a synopsis of the various threads that get picked up and followed...

It becomes a labor of love for the WoT community to go back to re-read previous posts and wonder Did I say that? The reality of an IM world. Hopefully when we post it stands the test of time. And there is nothing stopping us from re-hashing ideas from previous posts and discussions.

@lmelior- I am starting to get into the series myself- this is why I have such high hopes for the ending of this series.

@alreadymadwhenthechickencamebeforetheegg- Yes, which takes us back to what jkanavar was talking about. I scroll like a champion to figure out what was said previously, but my bad memory combined with some epically long posts- Free!- makes it a challenge to filter through what was said or re-said. My desk sometimes gets cluttered with post-its just to keep track.
John Massey
267. subwoofer
So, does this mean that Rand dies-at Gawyn's hands- before he dies on the rocks fighting the Dark One?

And Rand still has a hand. He can still pick up a sword.
Leigh Butler
268. leighdb
lmelior @ 264

In the beginning Leigh read all the comments, though I highly doubt she continues to do so

sandi vogel
269. sinfulcashew
I must be a 'dedicated', as I keep coming back and reading the newest addons.

I keep hoping that I can come up with a new comment to add to the festivities, but.....everything is always covered. Both sides.....and some that are off sides?

The only 'hate' I have going on is.....ah, I can't even really say that, as Elaida is misguided. Although that says she is 'guided' and that is only by Alviarin.
She was already on the road to big-headed (or 'pig-headed') and there don't seem to be any returns on this road for her to straighten up.

My favorite 'people' change from book to book. At first I only wanted to follow Rands plot and would get upset when he didn't make much of an appearance in a book.
But, I got caught up in all the other by plots without too much upsettedness. (another new word?)

Anyway, on to Monday?
Or is Leigh taking ANOTHER day off? teehee!
I hope this commentary will go on to the record books, especially since it will be five (5) days with out a 'fix'.
Oops, I forgot about the whole con week!

(and it looks like she does read us)
Kevin Morgan
270. DrMorganstien
I just saw this and had to respond

@ Rebecca Starr, forkroot
I am two "septs" away in Westford, of the Taxachusetts Aiel!

It is quicker for me to walk to Kimball's (the one in Westford) then drive.

Also, why did all my WOT people leave me? so sad.
John Fitzingo
271. Xandar01
Since we need something to discuss, I suggest in honor of the holiday weekend we discuss holidays in WOT. Bel Tine, Winter Night, Festival of Lights... more that I can't recall this late at night. Not sure if it's somewhere else online but what are the analogs? What holiday would be your favorite?
John Massey
272. subwoofer
Some of us seem to be burning the candle at both ends. Honestly- Winter Night sticks out to me in significance, as things went sideways for the boys and the Trolloc attack started all the fun... It seems like a 1000 years ago that Rand was guarding sheep, doing chores and raising tabac with Tam.

I don't qualify as Aiel as I am not an USer as the clan/ sept/ society thing was drawn up. No prob. I am more partial to the borderland countries anywho... Sheinar, where the women and men bathe naked together... yeah... that sound like Canada...

Leigh- when we meet at the next con- will buy you a martini.
273. RobMRobM
Dr. M - I'm still nearby, 15 or so miles south, in a (different) W town. Rob
Jay Dauro
274. J.Dauro
sinfulcashew @269

One thing gives me hope:

In the meantime, have a great weekend and a fabulous Memorial Day, for those of you nationally inclined toward Memorializing-type activities at this time. See you Monday!

That's our Fearless Leader at the end of the Interview on Friday.

Otherwise I will have to start twitching.
sandi vogel
275. sinfulcashew
Thanks for the uplifting and twitchless message.
Am looking forward to the next post!

Have a nice holiday and a Happy Bel Tine to you all too!
James Jones
276. jamesedjones
271. Xandar01

I'd have to admit, my favorite holidays don't really come from the RJ official world. Check out this link, and look up Bel Tine. That's gotta be number one.
John Massey
277. subwoofer
Bel Tine

When Two Rivers folk relax after work. Named after a brand of liqueur distilled from Two Rivers apples: "Now that the tilling's done, it's Bel Tine!"

Good times!
Sydo Zandstra
279. Fiddler

And Rand still has a hand. He can still pick up a sword.

Check KoD, ch 27, A Plain Wooden Box
Right after Semirhage burnt his hand off, Rand states that he has to learn the sword again. Bashere agrees, because 'most forms are 2-handed'.

Rand wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn with his current training. He'd lose speed because he has to think about which form he can or cannot use while fighting.

@276 jamesedjones:

Heh. :D

Joe Shaw and Bill Garret did a lot of contributing to the original WOTFAQ as well. IIRC, the FAQ was hosted at this very same site before Leigh took over as Keeper of the FAQ. :) ;).

Re: the female CK.

I think this one is out of running for good as well. It's not really needed for Big Feats anymore, anyway. Saidin has been cleansed, and for sealing the Bore a good number of strong female channelers would be enough for the saidar part.

I was interested to read about the 'slip' saying Elayne was already in place for TG. I have this suspicion that the same goes for Mat's and Perrin's armies (Mat himself has to make a side trip of course). The Borderlands' armies (their main strength) are in the vicinity too, and the same goes for the Seanchan's main armies. Add Illian and Tear to that.

I'm suspecting a lot of battling will be done in the Ghealdan/Murandy/Altara area...

Thinking about the Aiel heading for Arad Doman made me wonder how big a Gateway Rand could make with the male CK, in case they'd be needed as a back up for Lan's army defending Tarwin's Gap; there are a lot of Aiel too, after all...
John Massey
280. subwoofer
@ Fiddler, yes I am totally stoked for a rematch at Tarwin's Gap and beyond- deep into the Blight. Aiel and heavy cavalry would spearhead the initial assult.

As for the one handed swordsman- yes, it will be a challenge for Rand- but a blademaster must overcome. Maybe if he had a hook or a sword breaker in place of a hand...

Or maybe Rand was not left handed. I am used to disappointment.
sandi vogel
282. sinfulcashew
I am unclear on Callandors fate at this time-(short term memory loss).
Shouldn't Rand use it for the big battle?
284. Freelancer
RE: Bel Tine

RJ was nothing if not thorough in tying history, mythology and tradition together, tweaking the names a little, and making all of it work in a most wonderful way.

Wetlandernw@221 (Yeah, catching up, sorry)

I'm with you there, about folks thinking you're a hater of the side "opposite" the one you choose to defend. It's just never quite that black and white.


Whoa, you went there! Good on ya, because I sure would have had you not. I have fun with the line, "I read the end of the Book, and He wins!"

RE: Rand/Gawyn

What is this obsession with two of the good guys getting in a throwdown, especially over something that never happened? Gawyn may be the master of misunderstandings in the series, but you can bank it that Morgase will pop up before Rand and Gawyn get face-to-face. Think about it. Imagine the apology owed to Egwene and Elayne by Gawyn for not believing either of them. That's a greater humiliation than getting a beat-down from the DR.

RE: The Choeden Kal

There is no suggestion anywhere that it was made of cuendillar. It was stated early on in the series that many *angreal were virtually indestructible, and since heartstone is also described as such, it's an easy connection to make.

IMO, the female CK sa'angreal is as much toast as Sammael. It has served it's purpose, and it won't be rebuilt.


The pic doesn't show.


Choose to remember
Alice Arneson
285. Wetlandernw
Re: Rand & Gawyn

Great. Now I have this mental image...

Gawyn & Rand, each on his way to see Elayne, meet in the courtyard of the palace in Caemlyn.

Gawyn: Rand Al'Thor! You killed my mother! Prepare to die!
Rand: Okay, but can it wait until after Tarmon Gai'don? I really have to live that long first.
Gawyn: No! I swore to kill you!

Rushing from the palace:

Elayne: Gawyn, stop! I love him!
Egwene: Gawyn, stop! You promised not to kill him yet!
Nynaeve: Fool men!
Gawyn: You killed my mother! Prepare to die!
Rand: Okay.

Clash of swords ensues.

Entering from gates...

Morgase: Gawyn, stop! You'll get yourself killed, and then how can you protect Elayne?
Gawyn: I swore to kill him! (keeps swinging)
Morgase: Why?
Gawyn: He killed you! The peddler said so! (keeps swinging)
Morgase: Gawyn....
Gawyn: No, Mother. I have to avenge your death! (keeps swinging)

Perrin steps in and gets Gawyn in a headlock for his leige woman:

Morgase: Gawyn! *slap* I *slap* AM *slap* NOT *slap* DEAD! *slap*
Gawyn: Uh... Oh! Hi, Mom!
Morgase: Don't you think you owe someone an apology?
Gawyn: Uh... yeah... uh... Sorry, Rand.
Elayne (lifting chin): Gawyn...!
Egwene (folding arms beneath breasts): Gawyn....!
Nynaeve (tugging braid): Fool men!

Readers, en masse: Light, NO!!! Can we please not go there???
286. alreadymadwhendragonlosthead
Fiddler @279
Right you are about the female CK. Besides Tar Valon has its own saidar tuned sa'angreal. The white rod they used on Mat is still in the White Tower.

subwoofer @280
Yes, Rand may well be determined enough to re-learn the forms for one hand use. Although it's debatable whether he may have the time. I'm also arguing that he wouldn't really be up to refuting Gawyn's accusation about killing Morgase. He feels he abandoned her to Rahvin, after all, not taking action until she was gone.

sinfulcashew @282
Callandor was last seen being wielded by Jahar Narishma. Since it does not have a buffer against drawing too much, it can only be used safely in a circle. So Rand may have it in his keeping and will loan it to anybody willing to link with females and letting the females do the weaving. Alternatively he may leave it in Jahar's hands. Either way it's in the good guys' arsenal.

Freelancer @284
The point is Gawyn won't get a beatdown from Rand if they ever go to blows over Morgase (and knocking up Elayne). Rand might still be able to do some of the forms one handed, but he won't be able to match Gawyn's two-handed, fury-enhanced, stupidity-magnified attacks.

Wetlandernw @285

Re: the Bel Tine
The name seems close to Beltaine, which I only looked up now thanks to Freelancer's link. The primary focus of the celebration described in EoTW sounds a lot like a Maypole. In any case Beltaine itself has several Maytime parallel celebrations all over the world.
287. Freelancer

Yes, but High Lord Turak was better than Rand, Toram Riatin was better than Rand, Gawyn is better than a one-handed Rand, but he's the DR, el Numero Uno, the Ta'verenest. He wins for the same reason Bashere follows him. He is who he is. Besides, Gawyn has already been slapped to the curb by one Duopotamian farmboy, he'd think twice before letting it happen again.
John Massey
288. subwoofer
@Free- yes, Mat kicked Gawyn's butt. @281, would of brought up quotes but did not want to crash post;) Sooner or later Morgase has to turn up. She did relinquish her throne, but Elayne may have mixed feelings when mom appears- Mom, btw, this is my husband, the Dragon- and his other wives.... And Gawyn should get bitch slapped from both Eg. and Elayne- vis-à-vis Wetlandernw's dialog.

@alreadymadwhentheyswitchedthebeerwithsoupstock- On the other hand-sure, why not, pun intended- Randster could just point his finger- go abracadabra and Gawyn could be a turnip or a pile of ash, somewhat like 1:15 to 1:30 of this clip.

Jenson Button won Monaco.
289. Freelancer

Oh, of course. Wetlandernw got it. You named me specifically as being responsible for comments of such length you had to use post-its to keep track. So it seemed only appropriate to offer a less-than-verbose response. Heck, it isn't even a full word.

To offer a riposte, (and this is guessing, I'm not about to do the legwork to find out the truth) I suspect that your total word count per post of Leigh's exceeds my own. Perhaps you are the wiser, to submit a separate comment for each response, keeping those more brief. In other fora, I have acquired the habit of responding to all relevant threads in a single submission, and have carried that here. As an educator, I worry about my meaning being mistaken, so regularly explain things in greater detail than perhaps is essential to making the point, but honestly it is done in the name of clarity.
290. CalaLily
Ya know, I went out an bought another copy of CoT, and besides the four pages of the same map at the beginning, I noticed something pretty cool in the Prologue.

"Someone had tried to hang Donjel when he was young, though the reason was lost in the years. What remained of his short-cropped hair was iron gray. The dark leather patch covering the socket of his right eye was a remnant of another youthful scrape."

Don't let Mat ever meet this man, especially after the Tower of Ghenji, because he'll think he's looking at himself in thirty years. :D
Alice Arneson
291. Wetlandernw
OFF TOPIC for Freelancer @284

Whoa, you went there!

My turn to live dangerously. ;) Appropriate concept for Ascension Sunday, though, wouldn't you say?

Hey, (and this is WAY off topic) I know it's a long shot, but does CREC mean anything to you?
292. alreadymadwithblades
Freelancer @287
Errr.. I wouldn't quite say High Lord Turak was better than Rand. They fought only once, and you might say he started out fine. But somewhere along the way, Rand was able take the advantage. It isn't anything like Galad's duel with Eamon Valda, where he was clearly disadvantaged and Galad had to resort to letting Eamon cut him a few times so he could lure him into a trap.
Toram was, in all likelihood better than Rand. Though one could also argue that Rand got distracted when he felt the bubble of evil rising up around the camp. As a channeler, and with those twin sensor wounds on his side, he'd be more sensitive to them by now. As soon as he felt it, he lost concentration and pow! One point to Mr. Riatin.

I wish they'd fix that formatting on the front page. I miss doing really long handles. Then we can get this show on the road.
293. Freelancer

Hmm, no. But if it's what I might surmise, it isn't me, either. I'm indy-fundy.


Well, Turak actually earned his heron-mark. I see a parallel to the fight between Galad and Valda. Turak was so disappointed in how poor a fighter could carry the weapon of a blademaster on the eastern side of the Aryth Ocean, that he let down, and it cost him. Rand didn't plan that, but he took advantage of it. Galad did plan it against Valda, letting him come to expect a repeatedly failing move to continue being offered, showing him a weary and unimaginative foe, then surprising him.

Toram was assuredly better, and since he had a point of passion to motivate him, he wasn't going to ease up for anything. I always want to call out "Bad form!" when he whacks Rand after the tiny distraction of mayhem all around, but the fact remains Rand was having to give it all he had to remain at a stalemate, and he never tried to press offensively.

No matter, as I said before, he is who he is, and that turns the tide in every fight of significance. Anyway, I'm well beyond confident that Rand and Gawyn won't be baring steel toward one another.
John Massey
294. subwoofer
@free- how to say- it's not just you that I am using post-its for. It is for the multiple threads that are in discussion and my effort not to restate something I have said or plagiarize anyone else. I am a firm believer in giving credit where it is due. jkanavar@263 was commenting on somebody creating a quick reference on the topics of the various Posts, and I was saying that is my method.

As you have mentioned, your posts are a challenge for me because you cover a broad range of threads at once so it is work to filter through the multiple topics you cover so I do not say the same thing you did or not give you credit for saying it first. You are... thorough.

As for me posting like crazy- I thought I had an introspective moment where I say as much myself, which is another reason for post-its as I have said wayyyyyy too much. But as anyone can see, that is stating the obvious.

As R.Fife said on a previous blog, it is overcoming the challenges of such an impersonal medium, while expressing your thoughts accurately. People get offended because it is the text and not the tone or body language which comes across. If I was any good at this I'd be a writer. 90% (thanks- RF) of what I say gets lost in translation.
295. alreadymadwithwaitingfornextpost
Freelancer @294
You might also say that whoever tested Turak must have set a low standard. True, Rand surprised him, but it took several moves before he could make a killing blow. Plenty of time for a true "master" to recover. Unlike Galad's case where he sprung the trap in one single blow.
Myself, I always thought Turak just got special privileges on account of being umpteenth in line for the throne. Maybe his sparring partners lost on purpose? Whoever trained/tested him probably didn't think he'd actually try to use the blade on someone with more than average affinity for it.
And I agree, I highly doubt Rand and Gawyn will actually have such a violent confrontation. Neither of them is quite insane enough for that. They're both slipping real fast though, you never know.
John Massey
296. subwoofer
As for me I'm plain ol' fashion.

WoT related... As for the(sorry, may be beating poor Bela) female CK, something bugs me. Lanfear was convinced that her and LTT with the CK could challenge the Creator or supplant the DO. It always bugged me -and I may be getting too theoretical- but essentially it is a man fighting a god. The DO touches the world, while sealed in a prison and the weather changes. It takes a bunch of very strong women and a special tool to correct that.

IMHO I always thought that it would require both Sadin and Saidar, both halves of the Source to fight the True Power. I am just thinking of the Last Battle and what would it take to stand toe to toe with the WoT equivalent of satan.

edit-@alreadymadwhentheygradedonacurve, I thought to become a blademaster you have to be declared so by five other blademasters- some kind of council...
edit-@293- thanks for the link.
craig thrift
297. gagecreedlives
I think Lanfear claiming to be able to supplant the DO or the creator even with the CK is just more evidence of her being batshit crazy.Or she could of just been exaggerating to tempt Rand with power.

The council bit with 5 other blade masters is true on Rands side of the Aryth ocean. No idea if its the same in Seanchan though.
Sean Banawnie
298. Seanie
great point about Rand's use of hook/sword breaker
I was think much the same myself.Not only would he be relearning the forms , he would be inventing some as he goes along. If he did, I wonder if RJ had worked that out already or would BS have to do it . That (the sword forms) , I found especially well done. He gave impressions of action while letting our imaginations fill in details.
299. alreadymadwithblademastertest
subwoofer @296
True, it's either a 5-man council agreeing unanimously or killing one in single combat the way Rand(by way of Turak), Galad(by way of Eamon) and Gawyn(probably by way of Hammar) did it. Either way it's easy enough to bend the rules for the umpteenth in line to the Throne who should always be protected by the Death Watch(as all members of the royal family are) and will most likely never be completely exposed enough to have to fight a ta'veren with a crazy combination of luck, good teachers, and subliminal memories from a past life. They don't even believe in ta'veren over there.

gagecreedlives @297
Not necessarily nuts. Just ambitious. If we consider Randland mythology, they're basically Deists. The Creator just started the ball (or the Wheel) rolling but has since then left everything alone. The Dark One, being sealed away does not have the ability to touch the world in a very significant manner either, but if allowed to can alter the Pattern.
Lanfear's idea is, that with enough of the Power, they can match whatever effort the Dark One has to put out to alter reality. They can very well challenge the Creator, knowing that the Creator isn't likely to answer.

Seanie @298
My own wishful thinking tends toward some sort of artificial hand ter'angreal or knotted weave. After all, Rand already has the ability to create fresh flowers from feathers. That means they still have enough moisture to be alive and can be kept so with a "Keeping" weave. With sufficient knowledge in anatomy, (browns and yellows, anyone) I believe(wish) an artificial hand should be possible.
John Massey
300. subwoofer
@alreadymad... That was where I was coming from with the CK. Man and woman linked can do infinitely more than either by themselves. Man and woman linked with the CK should have enough juice to redo the Sharom thing that the Bore holed... so that would require a new or fixed female CK.

Love the term batshit crazy. Not sure it entirely covers Lanfear. Yes, she's nuts, but she was aiming for something more, she always loved power more than anything else.
301. alreadymadwithSa'angrealOD
subwoofer @300
Well, CK isn't the only saidar attuned sa'angreal around. There's also the White Rod the White Tower used on Mat. Not on the same scale but if they boost it with a circle, it should do fine.
John Massey
302. subwoofer
'K, sorry to Bela- again- counting on Aes Sedai working together- more than 2 of them?! This is AoL stuff...
303. alreadymadwithsa'angrealsizes
Yeah I know, comparing the performance of that little white rod to the humongous CK, we'd be expecting power levels relative to their respective sizes(a typical male concept, now that I think of it). In all fairness though, the only time we see that little white rod being used was with a circle. And it is classified as a sa'angreal, too.
Somebody just has to lay down the law. I'm sure Egwene can manage it.
John Massey
304. subwoofer
@alreadymad.... LOL!:)

Somebody just has to lay down the law

Good times

- Eg- Ladies, can't we all just get along?!

No? Well then this is how it's gonna be... Spankings for everyone who doesn't toe the line!
Alice Arneson
305. Wetlandernw

Hah! Actually, I think for something big like TG or re-sealing the Bore, they would work together. They did it in Salidar pretty well with their "Forsaken-attacking" plan (even if it was just an evil-bubble) so I think in a serious situation they could do some serious circles. And I have to think there are some other fairly significant angreal in the WT besides the rod they used with Mat.

If anyone cares, I'm with the bunch that think the female CK is history. No matter what Lanfear thought about it, it obviously had some limits. Maybe there was a tiny imperfection in the crystal that shattered the whole thing when it got used too hard.

alreadymad@299 It's a good point about the deistic assumptions in WoT. I'm guessing RJ set it up like and not like Judeo-Christian belief: "Like" in that the Dark One is not equal & opposite to the Creator, but more like Lucifer/Satan, who is an angel (created being) who chose to oppose God rather than submit. "Unlike" in that the Creator doesn't mess with the world once he got things going (deist) and won't interfere with the DO if he gets out. Puts rather a lot of pressure on Rand & co. to battle, if not a god, at least a demi-god, and without being able to count on anything more than the Pattern to help them out.

subwoofer @296 Wow. You learn something new every day if you aren't careful. Call me blind, but I'd never thought about the One Power vs. True Power battle quite that way. The One Power is split into male & female, while the True Power isn't, so it's logical that the only successful way to wage that battle is using both sides of the One Power together. I mean, I knew that it's set up so that men & women HAVE to work together to win, but I was always thinking in terms of sheer strength. Now I'm thinking in terms of "opposing powers" and it's a coy little twist...

subwoofer & freelancer: should have included this in my post at 291. Couldn't wrap my brain around it last night.
Leigh Butler
306. leighdb
Damn, my picture didn't show up. It was funny, too.

Guys - sorry, I didn't realize when I originally posted this that today was Memorial Day. There will be no post today, but don't worry, you'll have an extra-meaty one to enjoy on Wednesday.

Please to not be breaking the site, mmkay? Go see the Terminator movie, I hear it has robots in it.
307. alreadymadwithtalkofsa'angreal
subwoofer @304
Yes, now that the evils of spanking has been set loose, it cannot be so easily re-sealed. Bwahahahah.
And good point at your 296 post. I just skimmed over it without realizing the significance until Wetlandernw pointed it out.

Wetlandernw @305
Yep, that is why they're looking to get their hands on some males after all. So they can use the men to increase their rings.
And while there are other fairly significant angreal, only one sa'angreal is mentioned aside from the CK, and that's the little white rod. I suppose Rand has at least one some where in his various caches(Tear, Rhuidean, Cairhien). If he decides he can trust the White Tower not to use them against him, anyway.

Leigh, you know what Lews Therin says right? break it break it break it
Richard Fife
309. R.Fife
To the Music of Three Doors Down - Kryptonite

Rand took a trip into a redstone door to get answers
And Perrin went back to die and defend the Two Rivers
The girls went to Tanchico hunting Black Sisters
Moiraine wonders what Rand's gonna do, yeah.

Rand takes them to a portal stone and then to Rhuidean
Mat meets the Eel'finn, asks for memories and a medallion
Rand gets his dragons, He Who Comes With The Dawn
Couladin's a bitch but he's just a pawn!

Leanfer is crazy and follows her love into the Waste
Perrin spanks Faile after she slaps him hard in the face
Elayne and Nyneave meet a Seanchan, but don't realize
Such disguise!

Rand has good dreams, Lanfear invades
Asmodean shows 'fore he's laid
Rand gets his big idea to trap him a forsaken
Asmo fights Rand, Rand kicks his ass
Lanfear ties a shield, gives some sass
Perrin fights hard, but Faile has to save his bacon!

Moghedian and Nynaeve have them a little fight
Nyneave cheats and wins, but can't kill cause she walks in the light
The black ajah is beat, the supergirls all feel made
Tug a braid!
sandi vogel
311. sinfulcashew
Oh Pooh!
I just logged on to read the newest post and all I got was an apology?
Ah well.
Now have to wait til Wed?
Ah well.
Sorry Leigh, you seem to have an over flowing plate?
We are all very impatient with the fact that you have another life!
We were assuming (yeah the A** thing) that this is all you did! HA
Hope you have a nice holiday-Winters-Nite-Beltine-etc! Our fingernails will be chewed to the nub!
John Fitzingo
312. Xandar01
@ 306. leighdb

Kinda figured no post today, had to check, just in case. This place is going to explode come Tuesday. He he he.
I look forward to Wednesday's extra meaty post, will there be some cheese with that as well?
313. Babokathy
We could just stop posting, watch some baseball, honor the veterans, eat some barbecue, and pass the Cheez Whiz !!!
James Jones
314. jamesedjones
306 Leighdb

So what happens if we do break it? Headdesking? Post Deletions? Gasp, Spankings?

310 Subwoofer

The edit was priceless! Absolutely spot - on. Thank you for that.
Thomas Keith
315. insectoid
First time post, but I've followed since the very beginning. Love the blog, Leigh--it's the highlight of my week. :)
I'm on my third or fourth re-read (at TPoD now), though I took a break recently to read the Mistborn series. They're very good; every WoT fan should read them.

I know I'm late in the game, but still, a few thoughts:

Ch. 57:
I never liked Couladin, and this fake-Dragons thing was quite a surprise. (Though, in hindsight, I'm not surprised Asmo was involved.)

Ch. 58:
I love the battle here, with Rand and Asmo wrestling with the male control statue while Rhuidean blows up around them :)
And, of course, Lanfear is bats%#t crazy. Otherwise I think she'd have thought to look for the female control statue!

About the cover:
Some of the covers don't make sense to me either, but I'm not bothered by them as much as some people here...
As for TGS, I'm just guessing that the hole is the DO's work.

That's one thing I find curious about Mistborn... That magic system doesn't use fire at all!

That's an interesting theory. The dagger seems to taint just about everything else...

Freelancer@141 and hoping@143

Deja vu all over again...

J.Dauro@208 and tonka@232
That would be okay, I guess... but I wanna see Moiraine get rescued! :(


leighdb@306 and alreadymadwhenthenextpostdidn'tcome@307

Possibly balefire...
James Jones
316. jamesedjones
313 Babokathy

We all honor them in our own way. I've spent the day with my grandmother. My grandfather, who passed away last fall, retired as a Lt Col after serving in WWII.

Now, I'm remembering RJ... by trying to break the site.

Seriously though, I don't think we're going to make it. And, thank you, Babokathy, for the tactful reminder.
317. Babokathy
R. Fife @309
Maybe not 3 Doors Down, but how about several early Kansas albums, esp. Left Overture. I'm thinking RJ must've listened to them a lot? I'm sure I'm not the 1st one to see the resemblance.

Where did posts 306-7 go, anyways? Fell into the WAYS.
Andrew Lovsness
318. drewlovs
I think we have beat up Gawyn enough, and the Gods of WoT (that be us, since we are all knowing and all seeing) are forgetting that we are in fact Gods. Gawyn heard from multiple sources that Rand was bad news, he ignored them and helped both Rand and Egwene, and his mom ends up "dead" with rumors to the effect that Rand was responsible.

Bad decisions, perhaps... but put Elayne in his spot, since they were both raised in the same manner, and I think we could expect the same result. I expect Perrin's reunion with someone in the "know" to out Morgase, and the word will get out quickly to Elayne... then Egwene... then to Gawyn. Unless RJ wanted to up the suspense (yuck).

As far as the Egwene character arc, I would expect that her decision to act as a Amyrlin, even when beaten for it, will eventually place her in a position of being the only logical choice for the leader of the white tower after everything comes to a head. I would imagine that the behind the scenes movers and shakers in both the TAS and the SAS will look to find a figure head for closure, and who better than the childhood sweetheart of the dragon reborn?

This is also the main reason I think Egwene was the SAS Amyrlin; many have pointed out that there probably was a better choice without her, but the SAS wanted to have a personal connection with the Dragon Reborn, for TG and in the battle with the TAS.

Long winded there, hope it makes sense.

As far as the female CK, its toast. I don't see RJ destroying the thing right before what he considered the last two books, only to have it repaired. Fo me personally, it won't be needed, ans will only create problems tying up the loose ends. Just a personal opinion there.
Captain Hammer
319. Randalator
leighdb @306

That is...*twitch*-worthy...or would be if I hadn't just read the KoD chapter where Mat gives Joline a well-deserved span...

...a cake. He gave her a cake. Yep. And she had it coming. The cake.

So I'm gleefully happy right now, because, boy, do I like me an Aes Sedai getting some cake. Wheeeeeeeeeeee...!
320. alreadymadwhenpostdidnotcome
Babokathy @317
Posts 306 and 307 are still there. They haven't been balefired.

Randalator @319
He gave her a what? A **ank? Is that some kind of Egyptian symbol or something?
321. Freelancer
Guys - sorry, I didn't realize when I originally posted this that today was Memorial Day.

::frown:: After my little reminder the previous night?

I expected no post today, glad you didn't "work" on a holiday, we'll all be fine till Wednesday ::twitch::, promise ::twitch::.


You, sir, have no need to 'splain anything to me. I know I come across far too serious, it's my issue. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity @281 to give a brief response. And if nobody else has said it today, thank you for your service, brother.


You might also say that whoever tested Turak must have set a low standard.
A seemingly reasonable assumption, but an assumption all the same. We know not. As to what we know:
He held out his arms for the servant to remove his robe. Despite his soft, almost-singing voice, hard muscles roped his arms and smooth chest, which was bare to a blue sash holding wide, white trousers that seemed made of hundreds of pleats.
I could imagine a High-Lord living a pampered, sedentary life, but that isn't what we see. Not proof, but suggestive that his heron is validated by extensive exercise.

At the beginning of their fight, Rand had rejected the Void, because he was still afraid of saidin. Turak became disgusted with his lack of skill. Rand finally surrenders to the void, but fights to keep saidin away. However, this magnifies his skill with the blade, and he begins to hold his own. Then, thinking of Egwene in a damane collar, he knows he has to end the fight soon. He attacks for the first time, Turak being very surprised by the change in tactic from someone who a few moments ago was completely defensive.
In an instant, while Turak still tried to face the Boar, Rand charged. The River Undercuts the Bank. He dropped to one knee, blade slashing across. He did not need Turak's gasp, or the feel of resistance to his cut to know.
(There is a strong parallel between this, and Galad's sudden change to Reaping the Barley, also a slashing move across the body.)

Was Turak less skilled than another blademaster? Hard to say. Rand is who he is, and that will always be a factor in the equation, but I think it was Turak's disdain, his contempt, that killed him, not lack of skill.


Good idea. Came home from church picnic to watch the Dodgers clobber some Rockies, 16 - 6. Now to watch the Lakers beat Denver.
John Massey
322. subwoofer
@Free, thank you.

It is interesting how the world has changed. When I was in the army, I was young and bullet proof. Back then, the patriotism was not there, from the general public. If you were in the armed forces- short of the Air Force, you were thought of as a "dumb grunt"- of course perception in my country may of been different than in others.

I remember coming back from my first tour and it was like another day in the life. It is not why I went,and I have no regrets, but still... It is good to see the respect that soldiers get now. People actually line the road when 3 PPCLI comes home. These guys put themselves in harms way in service for their country.

-I digress-

@insectoid yeah- at 170 I did say I talked wayyyy too much. I feel an attack of sideways coming on

Psst...Leigh's not paying attention- when the cat's away...
John Massey
323. subwoofer
PT2- to rehash an old thread, I always thought that the aiel would look and move like this. Light, fast and lethal. Minus the rifles, Hawkeye, Uncas, and Chingachgook move like aiel. They carry their world on their backs, run- sans horse(sorry Bela), and catch game on the run. And they don't use swords.

note- violence in clip- please do not click if you are offended by violence.

@drewlovs- sometimes events make people- or it shows a person's true character if they can rise to the occasion. Egwene, good or bad, seems to be stepping up to the task. The SAS elected her as a figurehead. She used the circumstances to her advantage. Same thing applies when she gets captured. It is not about lamenting over your situation, it is what you make of it after. I don't think that the SAS expected that Egwene would show a back bone.

-edit aw heck, while I am rehashing- Johnny Depp for Mat.
sandi vogel
324. sinfulcashew
323 subwoofer
Good call with Johnny Depp
So far we have:

Mal as Lan, (I won't give him up!)
And now JDepp as Mat.

Has anyone come up with some more cast calls?
(that aren't too out on a limb?)
sandi vogel
325. sinfulcashew
I forgot about Tam as Rand.
His supposed innocence and toughness?
Seemed to fit.

And Kaylee as Min?

What can I say. Ever since you guys turned me on to Firefly.....
Well, I am hooked!
326. Vaelethron
I reckon Colin Farrell for Mat, at least Colin's younger brother. Someone said a while back that Mat seems more Irish to them and I reckon that fits pretty well.
327. birgit
But I have to ask here, how does he know what he knows? It would have been most unwise for this to be from a question he asked the Aelfinn, touching the Shadow as it does. But from the time he jammed Callandor back into the stone in the Heart of the Stone (does that make it heartstone?), we have gotten hints that he knows the game is afoot, and no hints how he knows.

Rand knows what Lanfear is up to because she told him in the Stone. Nobody else knows what is going on because Rand didn't tell them any details of his chat with Lanfear.

When Rand uses his OP sword, can't he make a OP hand as well? That way he doesn't have to relearn anything.
328. alreadymadwithbalefiredpost
That's strange... I could've sworn I posted something after 322.... ah well.

Freelancer @321
Like I said, he's a ta'veren with a crazy combination of luck, good teachers, and subliminal memories from a past life. Seanchan don't even believe in ta'veren. By the time he's done with them, they'll never know what hit'em.

subwoofer @322
Listen to Lews Therin....

Re: casting
I always figured Ryan Reynolds for Mat. Kinda reminiscent of Van Wilder.
329. RobMRobM
Casting - I vote Kate Beckinsale for Min! And Angelina Jolie for Lanfear....
Kurt Lorey
330. Shimrod
The only way this would ever begin to work would be to hire "no name" actors/actresses. Bad enough then, but trying to cater to the excesses of established acting egos? No way!
John Massey
331. subwoofer
Strange things are afoot at the Circle K-
@already mad... coulda sworn there were ramblings of LTT... Pablo has used a divine hand...

@Rob- problem with RR is that he is too tall. Interesting as Deadpool, until they sealed his mouth shut?! But way too tall for a 5'11" Mat.

Gerard Butler for Lan. If ever there was a man that can bare a grudge:
To stand against the shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides. To defend the Malkieri while one drop of blood remains. To avenge what cannot be defended.

Kate would be a great Min, she has the ringlets and everything-
Question- who is the most beautiful woman in the world- aka- Lanfear?

edit-@shim, hear you, but there is power in ensemble casts. Unless you are talking about LOTR, but they had some big names. Look at the Departed or any of the Ocean Franchise.
Sean Banawnie
332. Seanie
@329@RobM Jolie-mmmmm seductive& those eyes ,I'll
go for that , can do batshitcrazy too , I think
@331 subwoofer---I don't know if I would argue that Jolie is "most beautiful" but she is good enough (beautywise ) and can be seductive and intense ;do you think?
@326 Vaelethron earlier said Colin Farrell as Mat -- like that too.
I don't see the OP making and esp maintaining a hand-- you have to concentrate too much --sword of fire you start it and keep it steady not constantly manipulating like a hand would be
just IMHO.
I was interested in earlier discussions of Sa'Angreal . Is the Ring of Tamrylin one of the Sa'Angreal that batshitcrazy(Lanfear) talked about?
While kinda on the subject , the tower's white rod , while powerful , isn't even close to Callandor . IIRC , its described as being able to"crumple the walls of Tar Valon" while Callandor can "level a city at a blow" . batty , IIRC said there were Sa' more powerful than Callandor but less than CK . Tam Ring ? others ? Interested to hear thoughts.
333. douglasm
Lanfear said there were two sa'angreal for men more powerful than Callandor. One is, obviously, the male Choedan Kal. That leaves exactly one between Callandor and CK. If the Ring of Tamyrlin was a sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor, then it is the only one (for men, at least) other than CK.
Blake Engholm
334. UncrownedKing
I'm going to say that Jolie is probably an obvious choice for Lanfear. But I'll also say I don't like it. She's too obvious, and I'm kinda sick of seeing her in movies.....Yeah throw the rocks and vegetables. It would be the same roll she played in Alexander (batshitcrazy insanely beautiful) ok maybe thats a stretch. But this is only my op.

Gerard Butler as Lan is probably the best Ive heard yet.

I don't like Johnny Depp as Mat. Mats not clynically insane or wierd. I like Ryan Reynolds as Mat. It might not be completely right, but its pretty close.

I'm a fan of the no name actors for the most part. The movie would have a some well known but not uber-famous actors, but I think it would be best with lesser known actors. The Dune mini-series from Sci-Fi did this few years back, and I thought it was very very well done.
Richard Fife
335. R.Fife
I'm for Megan Fox as Lanfear (or maybe Selene-form, at least)
James Jones
336. jamesedjones
335 R.Fife

Yup. Or maybe Christina Ricci.

How about John Voigt for Cenn Buie? Or maybe Robert Duvall?
James Jones
337. jamesedjones
Salma Hayek could definitely handle the crazy aspect of Lanfear...
John Massey
340. subwoofer
@R.Fife- Meg's nice... always pictured her with her flashing eyes as Aviendha.
John Massey
341. subwoofer
How about Kim Catrel? She plays men for fools pretty well in her SitC role.
John Massey
342. subwoofer
'K, he's a bit old but how about Tom C for Mat. He's athletic, jumps on couches, and can catch a ladies' eye.

Keanu could dye his hair for Rand- tortured and conflicted is a good role for him. There is no spoon.

-edit- came to my senses- Johnny Knoxville- Mat.
Blake Engholm
343. UncrownedKing
O god lets stay away from Keanu ("Woah I know kung-fu") lol

Selma is a very good pick.

Megan Fox is probably better. But do we know if she can handle batshitcrazy? Ive only heard of her from Transformers. She would definately work ... physically.
James Jones
344. jamesedjones
Missy Peregrym as Min (look her up if you don't know).
James Jones
345. jamesedjones
Quintin Tarrantino (*sp) as Padan Fain. Might be too tall, though.
James Jones
346. jamesedjones
Of course, Steve Buscemi would make a great Padan Fain, too.
Blake Engholm
347. UncrownedKing
Liam Neeson would be good as The head warder trainer (I have completely forgotten his name, Hammod??? Wow Noob)

David Wenham would be a good Padan Fain

Natalie Portman for somebody, Min, Nyneave, Avi??

Matt Damon for Gawyn??
Blake Engholm
348. UncrownedKing
Other Fain possibilities:

Edward Norton
Sam Rockwell
349. RobMRobM
Natalie Portman can be for me (LOL). I'd see her as a good Egwene (sweet and small but ambitious and hard working).

Amy Adams for Elayne (already has practice doing the Princess thing).

Missy P can be Min if Kate B isn't available....
James Jones
350. jamesedjones
348 UncrownedKing

Sam Rockwell, definitely. Brilliant choice!

I'm just going to throw this one out there. Ashton Kutcher for Rand. He's actually a pretty good actor. He can handle young and dumb, and he can also cover torn and tormented.
Blake Engholm
351. UncrownedKing
He's too old for the role I think. Rand and co are 18-20. Ashton is clearly years older than that. For the main three I fear we have no choice but to go young up and comers.
352. grnidgrl
Willem Dafoe as Lan
James Jones
353. jamesedjones
351 Uncrowned King

Same goes for Matt and Natalie...

Edit: Come to think of it, they'll all be too old once the movie starts filming (if the movie ever starts filming).
AJ MacPherson
354. Mackey62
Am I the only one worried that our main characters are in the 16 to 23 year old range and most of the actors being named for them are at the youngest early 30's. All I can see is a 50 year old Robert Redford acting as an 18 year old in the beginning of the Natural. Since there is not a big time line in the books and there will be in making the movies, it will be really hard to explain why 22 year old Mat is all wrinkled. Or having to watch a 40 year old Perrin get married to a 16 year old Faile. Do we really want to go there again?

(I bow again to Uncrowned)
355. jkanavar
Mat - Ryan Reynolds is way too tall, and agree that Tom C is too old.

What about James McAvoy?
James Jones
356. jamesedjones
How about one of the Weasly twins for Rand?
357. alreadymadwithcastingcouch
Kate Winslet as Graendal
James McAvoy as Galad. or Gawyn depending on which color hairdye you use.
Cate Blanchett as Amys
James Jones
358. jamesedjones
354 Mackey62

I'm thinkin' 22 year old Mat is all wrinkled because there's no sunscreen, and he just started wearing a hat like a few months ago. :P
James Jones
359. jamesedjones
357 alreadymadwhenCategotcrispy

I'm not sure about Cate. Unless the Aiel waste is entirely filmed in a green room, she'd be dead by the second week of filming.
Brian Kaul
361. bkaul
As for the(sorry, may be beating poor Bela) female CK, something bugs me. Lanfear was convinced that her and LTT with the CK could challenge the Creator or supplant the DO. It always bugged me -and I may be getting too theoretical- but essentially it is a man fighting a god.

Lanfear strikes me as a bit credulous. She also believed that she was doing a great thing and allowing men and women to channel from the same source when she created the bore, before she even turned to the dark side. She has a history of being arrogant/stupid enough to believe she can do the impossible.

... kind of scares you for the fate of the Supergirls!
362. alreadymadwhenCatewasqueen
Aw come on, she's Australian. Those people can deal with a little sun.

jkanavar @355
James McAvoy as Rand might work. On the other hand, the guy's already played Leto Atreides. Do we want him to take lead in another sci-fi fantasy epic? Would he want to be typecast that way?

On the subject of typecasting, how about Taylor Kitsch as Mat. He played Gambit in the new X-Men Origins: Wolverine movie. Another staff- wielding cardshark should be right up his alley.
James Jones
363. jamesedjones

Taylor Kitsch or Speed Racer for Mat.
364. jkanavar2003
I was thinking James McAvoy for Mat since he is short and has an unconventional face (i.e., he's no Brad Pitt). For heights, make sure to check out:

Also, see for more discussion on casting.

Apologize for the pasted links, I'm html illiterate.
365. Freelancer

I'll make a stab at showing you the code for a working link. I will use the curly braces instead of square brackets, you'll see...

{url=}Tor Homepage{/url}

When you replace each of the curly braces with square brackets, you get this:

[url=]Tor Homepage
Blake Engholm
366. UncrownedKing
per jkanavar

Who else loves Judi Dench as Cadusuane??? Awesome pick.
And Eric Bana as Logain.
Jane Seymour as Tylin = GOLDEN

And Sam Elliot as Noal.....would be soo good.


For help on commenting ins and outs, click on the link above the comment field that says "bbCode" which is located between the words comment and allowed...:)

In the next window it shows you how to put the URL in and what to do. They give the example of GOOGLE. Simply, Copy. Paste. and Replace google with whatever you'd like. Also shows how to change text color and shade.
Although I for some reason cannot change font style right hates me
James Jones
367. jamesedjones
364. jkanavar2003

Wow. Mat_was_here had some absolutely awful choices. Some were OK.

RJ gave us some brilliant descriptions, and that link leaves us with the only option going forward as a CGI production.

Now, all we need is a few hundred million dollars...

Edit: I do like the choice of James McAvoy over Shia LeWhatever.
368. RobMRobM
Camilla Parker Bowles as Bela?

Dick Cheney as Narg?
Blake Engholm
369. UncrownedKing
Or mini-series. Although I wouldn't want this. It would work, and would make it a cult classic which is cool in its own right.
James Jones
370. jamesedjones
368 RobMRobM

Dick Cheney or Ruth Bader-Ginsu...
Michael Catapano
371. hoping
Why insult Bela? :)
Dick Cheney as Narg lol
he's even more evil
Richard Fife
372. R.Fife

Sarah Jessica Parker is Bela, and seems to hate me and would not let me link. *shiftyeyes at cylons who might have been rickrolled...*
Blake Engholm
373. UncrownedKing
Voice of the Darkone?

The narrator voice of the ages is Morgan Freeman, but he's not evil enough....Willem Dafoe?

TOR won;t let me do anything cool like hyperlink
James Jones
374. jamesedjones
YES!!! bbCodes won't display! Subwoofer would be so proud.
Sean Banawnie
375. Seanie
How many times will Tor break before TG ?
a storm is coming ...and his name is subwoofer...:D
read that paraphrasing of RJ's reading today (on Dragonmount) was great even to read paraprhrasing let alone RJ's own voice--that must have been incredibly intense--would have loved to have been at JordanCon for that alone....damn finals..damn kidney stones ...damn ...*headdesk*
376. Freelancer
No way Judi Dench is Cadsuane. Too passionate, face is too demonstrative. Anyone who has seen The Devil Wears Prada would know that Streep is Cadsuane.

Christina Ricci is Nynaeve.

And the no-linking stuff is my fault, I think. When I posted showing how to make a link, using reversed square brackets, I bet it confused the site.

Woot! Broke by my onesies.

Hmm, I edited that comment to get rid of the offending brackets, and still no BBCode works. I got nothing.
Sydo Zandstra
377. Fiddler
Re: Voice of the Dark One.

I was thinking of James Earl Jones.

But since JEJ is also the voice of Darth Vader, Nick Cave would do as well. If you hear that guy sing, it sounds like it's coming from a tomb. (I'll not link, you can google him ;) )

Graendal: Nicole Kidman (if she puts on a little weight).

Moghedien: despite her candidacy for Lanfear, I think Christina Ricci would fit her perfect.

The young heroes: definitely unknown actors. As somebody said already, it worked with Dune.

Morgase: Michelle Pfeiffer.

Thom Merrilyn: Patrick Stewart (with a whig, of course)

Fain: definitely Steve Buscemi.

Edit: @Freelancer: Christina Ricci as Nynaeve would have been my 2nd choice for her.
378. alreadymadwithbreakingthesite
Morgase has to be Rachel Hunter.
Stacy's mom could then be Elayne's mom.
379. jlyman

ROFL!!! Loved it!

I have always imagined Catherine Zeta-Jones as Lanfear. She just has the smooth, porcelain look that RJ usually uses to describe her. Or maybe it's just a boyhood crush that I haven't gotten over completely.

I had a crazy casting call for Lan the other day... Dwayne Johnson. Big, fighter, fairly angular face. The only thing that's not quite there is his age. Don't know if it quite fits.

I have also recently been imagining a sister of Michelle Pfeiffer as Siuan. I know that Siuan is not supposed to be a gorgeous woman, but I think it's because Michelle has kind of an ageless quality.

As for the main characters, I really don't know who would be best cast in those roles. Personally I would go with virtual unknowns who worked well together as an ensemble. Similar to what Lucas did with Episode IV.
Helen Peters
380. Helen
Sam Neil for Tam, or is he too old as well? We're probably looking at 40's for Tam and Abel, a bit older for Bran and co.

Kellan Lutz as Perrin????

Fiddler @377 I had Nicole Kidman as Lanfear.
381. alreadymadwithsomanynames
Tam would be closer to 50 or 60 actually so Sam Neil would do nicely.

Dwayne Johnson... you could probably age him and then turn him into one of the Borderlords. Agelmar maybe.
Blake Engholm
382. UncrownedKing
The Rock as Lan...???? hahah it would be awesome if he was older. Common we can do better. The Nature Boy Ric Flair as Thom, The Macho Man Randy Savage as Perrin, and Goldberg as Lan haha ok no way that even comes close to working.
EDIT: agree with 381. But not Lan.

Zeta jones is a very good pick for Lanfear, however I don't see that ever working.

Sam Neil is too old for Tam I think.

Christina is too creepy lookin to be one of the SG. I could see mogh or semi but not Nyn.

Kellen Lutz>???? no way Perrin is a slightly Emo lumberjack not a pretty OC boy. Whoever suggested that should be punished. If Gerard Butler was young and up and coming he would work perfectly.
Sydo Zandstra
383. Fiddler
Helen@380: I don't think Kidman would look as good with black hair.

OTOH, I don't really mind differences in details like hair colour between book and movie.

On a side note, I went to watch Angels and Demons today. Ayelet Zurer (playing Vittoria Vetra) would make a good Min, I guess :D
Kathy Keith
384. Babokathy
Casting Call: Michael Dorn (Star Trek's Worf) as Lan. Good voice, dark look, piercing eyes.

We'd need a google-list for all the 20 year old actors to cast this EOTW. Will turn out to cast unknowns. Certainly no one over a well-preserved 50 to play the older Aes Sedai, ageless = no wrinkles, right?
385. Freelancer
I think it's too easy to look at Christina Ricci and think "child". That wouldn't be Moggy, but it would sure fire up Nynaeve.

I don't think anyone would argue about Steve Buscemi, but you need a prosthetic nose, he doesn't have a beak.

Patrick Stewart as Merrilin seems a good idea, but if you have to put a white wig, mustache and eyebrows on someone to make them into Thom, why not Edward Norton? I'd say he's a bit more spry. Or Kevin Spacey, we know he can fake a limp, eh Keyser, er, Verbal?

And, you know, if we're going to play this game, you can look past actual heights, and stick to faces. Or else you could never cast John Rhys-Davies as Gimli.

Somewhere Antonio Banderas was suggested for Juilin Sandar, but the descriptions in the text have Tairens being only slightly less dark-skinned than SeaFolk. "The color of good soil" is the term used, which for farmfolk is quite nearly black.
Blake Engholm
386. UncrownedKing
OMFG Ever since the first time I read EoTW, I have thought of Lan as Worf! This is hilarious. Its because the artist, who shall remain nameless, depicted Lan as a black man with Michael Dorn like features. I now know that Lan is not a black man, but still I have to try really hard not picture Worf.
387. alreadymadwithtoomanystars
Anthony Hopkins as Taim. Or Demandred.
And if you really insist on Tom Cruise, make him Sammael. Short, Athletic, all he needs is the wig.
Christopher Lee as Pedron Niall.
And what about Jeremy Irons?
388. Mark-S
I always thought Dick Van Dyke would be a great Thom. But I guess he's getting up there in age. (Then again, so is Thom)
389. Freelancer

I love Michael Dorn, but Malkieri are not darkskinned. Also, Michael's face is actually fairly smooth for his size/age, totally not the "stony planes and angles" RJ reminded us of, over and over.
390. Freelancer
Jeremy Irons is Ishamael, before changing to the young looking Moridin.
Helen Peters
391. Helen
Uncrowned king @382, that was me, I was thinking more muscles than typecasting.

ducks and runs before being balefired.

Hang on, if I get balefired would that delete the comment above?
Sydo Zandstra
392. Fiddler

"Patrick Stewart as Merrilin seems a good idea, but if you have to put a white wig, mustache and eyebrows on someone to make them into Thom, why not Edward Norton? I'd say he's a bit more spry. Or Kevin Spacey, we know he can fake a limp, eh Keyser, er, Verbal? "

I can picture Patrick Stewart doing the gleeman act and reciting in High Chant.

For some reason I think Norton and Spacey don't have the flair that Stewart can bring.
Blake Engholm
393. UncrownedKing
Helen, O yes it would. And I have the BFG (Bale Fire Gun) right here
Dru O'Higgins
394. bellman
For Cadsuane, I'll go with the obvious choice and say Maggie Smith.

What about Leelee Sobieski as Egwene?
395. alreadymadwithtoomanyactors
that would of course depend on how powerful the weave was and how long has it been since you posted.

And Stewart as Thom... are you forgetting that he started out by doing Shakespeare?
James Jones
396. jamesedjones
394 Bellman

I've always thought of a young Thora Birch as Egwene.

393. UncrownedKing

Are you sure that's what BFG stands for? lol
397. jlyman
What about Leelee Sobieski as Egwene?

That's an interesting choice.

And I never meant to seriously cast the Rock as Lan, that just popped into my head the other night and I've been having a hard time getting rid of the image as I read. LOL
Dru O'Higgins
398. bellman
Andy Serkis as Padan Fain.
Liam Neeson as Gareth Byrne or Bashere.
399. jlyman
Darn bbCode that doesn't work when you want it to.
Sydo Zandstra
400. Fiddler

"And Stewart as Thom... are you forgetting that he started out by doing Shakespeare? "

Which would make him perfect for a former Court Bard, wouldn't it? ;)
Dru O'Higgins
401. bellman
I'd like to see what Adrian Brody could do as Thom Merrilin.

And maybe David Boreanz as Mazrim Taim.
402. benpatient
*twitch* 5pm EST and no update yet....I need some tFoH goodness....
403. Bloodybutteredonions
I always see French actor and singer Marc Lavoine as Lan. He's the right age and his face is all sharp angles and he has the most piercing blue eyes. I've even doctored a publicity photo to give him a Hadori and stuck it on the wall by my desk.

Can you imagine "I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile" said with a sexy French accent?
AJ MacPherson
404. Mackey62
What matters more, if someone looks the way the character is described or if the actor makes the character come alive on screen?

IMO, if some bad ass can play Lan but does't have the angled face, I won't care that much.

Finally, is the company making botox really hoping these movies get mad, to help have more actress get the ageless look?

"oh look, a shoe", (ducks)
Sydo Zandstra
405. Fiddler

How about Nathan Fillion as Taim?

And since I'm tapping out of Firefly, Gina Torres as Myrelle Sedai...
Sean Banawnie
406. Seanie
gotta find a role for John Malkovitch; Buschemi is the perfect Fain so...maybe SH ? ...or Ag/Bal/Bel ?:D
407. alreadymadwithpatstewartsdome
Fiddler @400
Yeah... perfect. Now if I can just imagine him with gray hair(any hair, for that matter) and a mustache.

I don't get what's sexy about a French accent.

While we're on the subject of Firefly alumni, how about Morena Baccarin as Berelain.(ducks)
Sydo Zandstra
408. Fiddler
"Morena Baccarin as Berelain."


Oh, and skip the height difference in this one:

Sarah Michelle Gellar as Birgitte.
409. zobah
Re: Voice of the dark one.

I would say that they guy who does Tony the tiger, he's great.
411. Freelancer

Leelee Sobieski is a blonde, would you dye her hair dark? And she has a passive-appearing face, I can't picture an Egwene like that. She can be Else Grinwell.

I am well acquainted with Patrick Stewart's classical chops, there is no doubt he would suit as a court-bard. I'm just not sure he can manage the limber, spry, semi-tumbling actions of the gleeman. And don't count Spacey or Norton short, both have remarkable range, if not quite Stewart's vocal projection.

Oh, Mare Winningham for Verin. Just trust me. She's sneaky like nobody's business. Hmm, do Thom and Verin share any screen time? Because Spacey and Winningham acted together in high school.
Andrew Lovsness
412. drewlovs
Denise Richards for Lanfear... the crazy eyes are already installed.

Viggo Mortensen for Lan; yeah, yeah, I know. He has already had a similar role in LotRs, but I can totally see him as the brooding dark warrior...

Hillary Duff for Elyane works for me.
413. Robss
Does anyone know which book Perrin finally meets his in-laws?

James Jones
414. jamesedjones
413 Robss

Lord of Chaos

Edit: I'm not sure which chapter, but the one right before it is A Bitter Thought, which features that Saldean guardsman contemplating how unfortunate it is that he spotted Zarine.
James Jones
415. jamesedjones
hmmm... they still don't have that bbCode thing working.
416. RobSS
Thanks Jamesedjones...

I'm reading some of my favorate parts waiting for the next post. twich
417. RobMRobM
412 - please, no Hilary Duff. I'd like someone with more acting chops, such as my choice Amy Adams. If we need to go younger, find some other young blond of the moment who can act and have Amy play Leane.

Also, need the dark hair for Lanfear - Catherine ZJ or Angelina would do better. Absolutely need to find something else for DR though -- maybe Melindhra from TFOH.

I do like Viggo for Lan.

411 - Yes for Mare/Verin! Great choice. And agree with your comment on Leelee. But I do like Patrick Stewart better than the alternatives for Thom. I can see Norton and Spacey as Foresaken.

408 - SMG as Birgitte - OMG!

398 - Neeson has to be in here. Brynne is first choice.

General - We need an Moiraine who can act. Cate Blanchette would work for me.

Captain Hammer
418. Randalator
Oh my god, movie casting insanity. I'd sell my soul to the DO to stop that...
419. alreadymadwithcastingmania
Wetlander @410
I like Berelain too.

No. No Hillary Duff, please.
420. RobMRobM
@412 - This is what happens when Leigh takes both a Friday and a Monday off. Next we'll start working on Who killed Asmo theories and debating mythological and historical antecedents to each of the main characters. Trust me, movie casting is better than many of the alternatives, LOL.


P.s. Alexis Bledel for Egwene?
Alice Arneson
421. Wetlandernw

"I like Berelain too."

Yes, but I DON'T.

Although I must admit Morena Baccarin could do an awesome job of the part; I just hate to see her playing a character I loathe.

Oh, and I think Nathan Falion should be Mat.
Roger Powell
422. forkroot
He's too old now (and a crummy actor) but Steven Segal would have been the perfect body type for Lan.
Sydo Zandstra
423. Fiddler

Watch Fillion in the last few episodes in Buffy season 7, where he plays an evil baddie.

He's a perfect Taim. I can just picture him saying 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule...':D
424. alreadymadwithseagal'spaunch
Not with that belly he ain't
425. Freelancer
No Viggo!

No Hillary, unless it's Swank as Liandrin.

Liam Neeson would make a better Elyas Machera than he would a Gareth Bryne. He just doesn't have the "bluff, stocky" presence needed to portray a bear of a man. And he's far too tall to be Bashere, who only reaches Rand's shoulder.

Hmm, since folk are insistent upon Jean Luc as Thom, how about Ryker (Jonathan Frakes) as Rahvin? Large, dark hair, heavy beard, and he does an evil eye very well. Make it so, Number One.

I do be wondering what a bald head and an Illianer beard do be looking like on John Goodman's face...

Corlan Dashiva = Richard Dreyfuss

Who said David "Angel" Boreanz as Taim? I can almost see it.
426. Freelancer
How about Sigourney Weaver as Reane Corly?

Has subwoofer started a database yet? Cuz Post-Its just won't cut it for this mess...
427. Rand Al'Todd
Already been said, but all the actors/actresses named for the heroes and SGs are TOO OLD.

This movie series would need a talent search to find young new actors/actresses, preferably with a rule that NONE of them have a following. I don't want another pretty boy who can't act his way into a paper bag (like Anakin in Ep II and III) {although a script might have helped}.

A lot of the proposed stars do fit for the older characters. Except, if it were to go more than a couple of movies, many of them would have squabbles about a long term contract. Some others would do a Dumbledore on us, requiring replacements in midstream.

It would be fun to have the casting job though:-)
428. RobMRobM
Free @ 426 - with Sig's height and toughness, she needs to be a Maiden.

@425 - Boreanz, yes! Swank, yes, but as Alanna! Need a vicious blonde for Linadrin - how bout Charlize Theron?

429. Freelancer
I've been waiting patiently for Charlize's name to come up. She needs to be the opposite of Lanfear. Blonde hair vs black, black clothes vs silver. You know who I mean. Now many of the guys will agree, just because they want to see her in streith.

Sigourney as Sorilea? Face off with Streep as Cadsuane?
Sydo Zandstra
430. Fiddler
Sigourney Weaver would do well as Semirhage.

And I still think Nathan Fillion would make a better Taim than David Boreanaz. He can play the chaotic stuff better.

Boreanaz would make a fine Warder. Or Galad...
431. alreadymadwithcharlizeinstreith
OH man... now I'll never get the image of Charlize in streith out of my mind.

Michael T Weiss as Logain
432. jafco

Earth control to LeighDB. PLEEZE end this insanity.
sandi vogel
433. sinfulcashew
Okay, okay!

I think I started this way back at a hundred or so ago?

And I am sticking with Nathan Fillian as LAN!
No other suggestions have any thing on him as Lan.
His -Mal- characters actions and emotions and toughness when called upon are the right combination.

Some one mentioned an ensemble cast that has worked about the Firefly bunch?
I know, you all have soooo many ideas for the roles, but whenever I see a suggestion for any of them, I get queasy.....just can't picture known actors doing our beloved story!

I think the 'unknown' idea is the best!
It will work.
I saw 'Hannibal Rising'(I think that was it's name) anyway, how he grew up, etc. It was done with all unknowns and I didn't even realize until it was over that I didn't recognize one of the principals in the movie.

So on to..................oh dear all I can think of are all the actors you have cast. Scary!
sandi vogel
434. sinfulcashew
Puhleeze, someone start a new topic? And get all the typecast actors out of my head.

I don't do 'headdesk' well. And I already 'twitch' on my own.

Perhaps the 'Scream' painting would portray what I am trying to express here.

John Massey
435. subwoofer
@Free- I am increasing my stock position in 3M.

Streep would be perfect for Caddy.
Hugo Weaving as Fain. After seeing Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, he can play anything, Weasel to High lord.
Sam Elliot as Thom.
Jensen Ackles as Mat.
Ellen Page as Min.
Scarlett Johansson as Elayne.
Ali Larter as Egwene.
Channing Tatum as Rand.
Kurt Russell as Gareth Byrne.

Making the rest up as I go...
John Massey
436. subwoofer
@Sinful- shenannigans! see me @331 for Lan.

@368RobM- LMAO-
@375-seanie- Kidneystones!
@361Bkaul- "You were always ambitious,Mierin," His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

... "Graendal said..." she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. "Lews Therin? I love you Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!"

batshit crazy... good role for whomever gets cast.

Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!

-edit- flippin bbCode funk! Took away my pretty toy!
sandi vogel
437. sinfulcashew
Go watch 'Ariel' (Ff) See Nathan act. See Nathan angry.
See Nathan make tough decisions. See him as Lan!!!!!
438. Rand Al'Todd
SubWoof@435 said

"Channing Tatum as Rand"

Born: April 26, 1980

IE 29 as we speak (ur type)

Thus TOO OLD for 18-20 year old Rand -
Yeah, I know, Hollywood does it all the time.
So the movie looses "realism"
Sean Banawnie
439. Seanie
Realistically {ironic for a fantasy site} ,any of these a-list actors/tresses would blow the budget for the whole damn movie . And logistically speaking , yes as the wheel rolls on ,metaphorically speaking , age would be a problem for the duopatamians...but it is still fun to see who you visualize .....mostly or all unknowns would be the way to go most likely but its fun to put a face and personality on---Buschemi as
Fain= scene stealer -RFife as Mat {minus yellow shawl}=rickrollah /trickster ..still I vote Malkovitch as one of the used up Forsaken(creeeepy !) feeling *twitchy* bad , looking for meaty tommorrow, yeah Leigh ! 500 by tommorrow ?
440. Digital_Eon
As long as Gerard Butler is in this, I don't care who plays anyone else. :P

Heck, he could play Lanfear for all I care.
441. toddywatts
So, I'm rereading TEOTW and I can't remember... do we know who the guy was that came to the stedding and said the DO was going to blind the Eye? The one who was dying but had no mark on him, so the Ogier thought it was Aes Sedai work, but he recovered after crashing in the stedding for a while, made his comment, and then slunk off into the night. Was that Slayer?
442. alreadymadwithcastsuggestions
Seanie @439
No need to add the tresses. Actors can serve as a unisex term particularly if you're doing plural with both genders included. Just throwing that one in. Ok, I'll shut up now.

Have you been talking to another voice from the AoL?

toddywatts @441
I don't think a name was ever actually given. I think it was Jain/Noal Charin though.

What number did we break the last one at?
Um.. looks like this one might be next.
Sean Banawnie
443. Seanie
@442alreadymad I hear ya but I like tresses...*smirksandducks* ....we've got a strong feminist following here & I want to give due
444. alreadymadwithsitenotbreaking
I spoke too soon. We're only halfway through.

Gary Oldman as Taim.
And the Malfoy kid as Couladin.
Go Light.
Sean Banawnie
445. Seanie
Werewife says I better go to bed. I am getting even goofier than usual. Blame it on kidneystones/percocet and lack of sleep . *twitchow* come on noon ......and fresh meat , Leigh !! Go light !
John Massey
446. subwoofer
Percocet- ahhhh memories...

Was trying to come up with Perrin but drew a blank at what young actor is build like a gorilla...
As RandAl... put it, thinking outside the Hollywood...
Matt Ryan as Rand.
Mike Ditka as Hammar.
Wife is sighing... tugging braid...sniffing... Phaw!
craig thrift
447. gagecreedlives
What about Eric Bana as Demandred
and maybe Salma Hayek as Lanfear. I could see her doing batshit crazy one moment and seductive the next.
sandi vogel
448. sinfulcashew
geeze, I must be getting old.
A wholotta the actors are totally unknown to me.
I'm even afraid to go look, so I won't.

My RAM is now ROM. Does that make any sense?
It kinda does to me at this moment in time.
Sort of like a wheel?

I had to do alot of running around today. Grandkids and school and buses and dinner (yum-waffles and bacon and scrambled eggs and orange juice)
I skip breakfast, so indulge for dinner.
Thomas Keith
449. insectoid
Wow. I *twitch* once in my first post, and everything goes "sideways" like subwoofer said!

And now bbCode doesn't work? Really?

So it has. That's about the 4th time the site has broke, right?

I don't know a lot of these actors/actresses, but I do think Angelina would make a good Lanfear.


I can't imagine Hugo Weaving as Fain. But maybe it's just because I have the image of him as Elrond burned into my mind, or Mr. Smith.

I sympathize with your ROM. :)
I will gladly skip breakfast for Leigh's next post...
450. Wolfmage
Freelancer @ 287
"Yes, but High Lord Turak was better than Rand, Toram Riatin was better than Rand, Gawyn is better than a one-handed Rand, but he's the DR, el Numero Uno, the Ta'verenest. He wins for the same reason Bashere follows him."

I accept that Turak was probably a better blademaster at the time of their fight in tGH, but that was book 3, well before he reached the apex of his skills with the sword and general fighting. Since that time he has no doubt increased his deadliness many times, through training with Lan and Rhuarc, and regular practice sessions with five opponent in LoC, etc.

So I think as a natural talent Rand already had higher potential in tGH, but he was simply forced by the circumstances. After he killed Turok he officially became a blademaster by right, and his skills started to catch up with his potential in earnest. Lan remarks a number of times about his prowess and how he seldom makes a mistake twice, etc. So I don't think it was just ta'veren luck forcing the victory so much as it forced him to rise to the occasion.

As for Toram, I've never felt he was better than Rand during their encounter in Blades. Rand is wearing a coat and gloves during that scene to protect his identity, and he completely holds his own whilst they are actually fighting on equal terms. I've always read the strike on Rand in those passages as simply that Rand lets his guard down because he is naturally more concerned by Fain's supernatural mini-Mashadar and not a sparing sessions with wooden practice swords, not because his skill failed against a superior opponent.

Before that moment, he never gives an inch to Toram.

I reckon Lan might be one of the few to have any confidence of being able to kill two-handed Rand with a sword. Perhaps Galad and Belal (before he died) might also be in the list as people who would be able to give him serious trouble. But I put two-handed Rand near the top of the blademasters of WOT precisely because he kills another blademaster whilst he is less than one year old as they say in the borderlands.
Danny Saiz
451. DannySaiz
Wolfmage @ 450 (or the comment right above mine)...

I always thought of Galad as the best of the younglings, even though he wasn't actually one of them. If you look at his fighting history, he doesn't strike me as someone who would be the best of the best.

He more than held his own during the dragonsworne riots in Samara (against zero blademasters) but got his ass handed to him by Matt in a 2 on 1 at the White Tower.

He beat Eamon Valda 1 on 1 but just barely. He had a pretty good "scouting report" on Valda which definitely tipped the scales. I don't think Galad wins without that scouting report.
Andrew Lovsness
452. drewlovs
Remember, when we are naming people who could play our heroes in WoT on the big screen, what we are doing is actually telling each other who we think each of the characters look like. You know, what we imagine when we are reading the books. If they actually DO make these books into movies, I do not expect them to pick up ANY big named talent.

I think its funny that Hillary Duff is not considered an "actress", since her singing career is her "Johnny come lately" part of her career; she has been acting since she was a little girl. Look her up.

As far as other topics, This is as good a time as any to ask why there were so few angreal for men at Rhuidean. The relics of AoL Aei Seai were gathered in many spots spread out through the land, but only one cache was actually gathered by Aei Sedai in the "know"; you know, people who knew what they were, and what they were used for.

I would expect that every angreal that a male could use would be gathered up and sent away to keep them from the now insane male Aei sedai, such as the CK access pieces were; why did Rand only find ONE? I understand why Moiraine was unable to find any female angreal besides the one Lanfear uses at the end of FotH (that one was a "evil" version), since not only the female Aei Sedai would have taken what they wanted before sending the Aiel on their way, but we also know that other female Aei Sedai rummaged through then while they were in transit to Rhuidean. But who would have taken the male versions?

I might buy that they were destroyed; but then, why weren't they ALL destroyed? After all, Rand DID find one...

Also, why was the CK access pieces not left at the bottom of the Eye of the World? Isn't that the only location the AoL Aei Sedai had any guarentees that the Dragon Reborn was going to get to first?
Kurt Lorey
453. Shimrod
I wonder if there is a Twelve Step Program for people who are "alreadymadaboutwhotheywanttoplaytheirfavoritecharacterswhentheyarereallycountingtheirschickensbeforetheeggsarehatched"?

Sorry, AMW...

No, not really. lol
Michael Catapano
454. hoping
Laras- Berta from "Two and a Half Men"
John Massey
455. subwoofer
@454 yes!
Don't get why people fear an ensemble cast. It works in many movies- why not this one. The age thing is relative. Hollywood always casts actors that are older than the roles they play... not the end of the world. 90210- next gen, Harry Potter, Buffy, Step Up, Save the Last Dance... high school movies with the actors older that the role they play.

IMHO the movies will happen... when bbCode works g#$@@***!

Was thinking of Michelle Pheifer as Moiraine...
John Massey
456. subwoofer
And I own Serenity and Ff box set, and Nathan was born in my city!!!!!! Where I am posting from now!!!!damn bbCode!!!!!

I even watch Castle, which I don't think many others do. Nathan is has a sarcastic bit about him that Lan doesn't have. The only other person than Gerard- sans tresses- would be Vigo...
457. not mad yet

"I like tresses...*smirksandducks* ....we've got a strong feminist following here & I want to give due"

That's interesting as "tresses" is the french word for braids. :) (tugging my braid...)
Sydo Zandstra
458. Fiddler

"Also, why was the CK access pieces not left at the bottom of the Eye of the World? Isn't that the only location the AoL Aei Sedai had any guarentees that the Dragon Reborn was going to get to first?"

That could be risky. The DR might blow himself up/ burn himself out with all that power, even before he has proclaimed himself openly.

I would have cast Jodie Foster as Moiraine myself...
Sean Banawnie
459. Seanie
@457 ;)

holding on..
budget wise and practilcality wise (as I said last night) I'm sure ensemble is the way to go , but it is fun to let imagination run wild....Moi needs someone short and spunky (how about Pfeiffer ?!? sp as Myrelle ?...and anyway I think CGI is strong possibility for above reasons.
Do you think they repair female CK ( I had always thought it was toast but...seems like some fans think it possible __don't know if RJ ever commented on this )or make a new one ? a bit of a stretch , I guess , but Elayne is set up as the Ter maker , how about some A' or SA' ? It sure seems like RJ set up the importance of Male /Female working together for anything important--100 companions revisted except this time it is with them working together . Someone had pointed out before , I wish I could remember who but it was a great subject --that One Power {ironic} is divided and can't match DO use of True Source unless Saidar and Saidin is used together . Not just a matter of the amount of power used but necessity of using it together...
anyway , sorry to ramble...keeeping twitch at bay by a toenail..
Mitchell Swan
460. mcswan
This is from *LONG* ago, so a lot don't fit anymore, heck, some of them are dead! but there can be only one Fain, and that man is John Malkovich.

Rand - Jerry O'Conner
Egwene - Samantha Mathis
Nynaeve - Joanne Whalley Kilmer
Min - Nicole Eggert
Mat - Christian Slater
Perrin - Chris O'Donnell
Moiraine - Sela Ward
Lan - Clancy Brown
Elayne - Alicia Silverstone
Aviendha - Brigitte Fonda
Faile - Moira Kelley
Thom - Sean Connery
Loial - André the Giant
Birgitte - Birgitte Nielson
Taim - Alan Rickman
Suian - Teri Hatcher
Morgase - Sharon Stone
Sheriam - Annette Benning
Aram - Devon Sawa
Davram Bashere - Wilford Brimley
Harid Fel - Danny DeVito
Gawyn - Brad Pitt
Galad - Tom Cruise
Verin - Angela Lansbury
Leane - Nicole Kidman
Gareth - Michael Douglas
Bayle Domon - John Rhys-Davies
Elyas Macheras - Sam Elliot

Ba'alzamon/Ishy - Clint Eastwood
Lanfear - Rebecca DeMornay
Rahvin - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Asmodean - Sting
Be'lal - The bad guy in Bev. Hills Cop I
Sammael - Christopher Walken
Moghedien - Carrie Fisher
Graendal - Kelly LeBrock
Mesaana - Julianna Marguillies
Semirhage - Michele Phieffer
Demandred - Timothy Dalton
Aran'gar - Jennifer Tilley
Osan'gar - Kevin Bacon
Moridin - Dolph Lundgren
Padan Fain - John Malkovich
Liandrin - Erika Eleniak
Elaida - Glenn Close
Alviarin - Anjelica Huston
Suroth - Grace Jones
Shaidar Haran - Richard Kiel (Jaws from James Bond movies)
The Gholam - Robert Patrick (T-1000 from T-2)
461. Freelancer

Why does everyone insist that Egwene be a tall blonde? Ali Larter? Really? She couldn't play demure or modest if it killed her. That's conceding that she can act at all, which is a stretch.


tGH is book 2. I don't see the point in explaining what Rand's potential is at an event where it is far from realized. AT THE TIME he faced Turak, he was a less skilled swordsman. He is who he is, and whether any other factors might be involved in making him able to win a battle, he will win because he is who he is. That's really a simple concept.


The Aes Sedai who created the Eye worked from future visions. As a random posit, perhaps they knew a more effective way to use the Rhuidean Wise One rings ter'angreal, and saw what should be there, and what should not. If they believed that the Eye was a perfectly safe place for things the Light would need, they would have put all seven seals there, not just one. So it would seem they could read enough of the future to make informed decisions on what would be wise and unwise to store at the Eye.

An interesting question I've not heard before is how they came into possession of the Horn of Valere to include it at the Eye.


I gotta say, there's a lot of EWW factor in some of those choices, but Alicia Silverstone? From EWW to ICKK. Why not Marisa Tomei for Lanfear if you want to go that route? Lanfear from Brooklyn! However, Grace Jones and Glenn Close are good calls. And Verin is Mare Winningham. Trust me.
John Massey
462. subwoofer
@fiddler- come to think of it, not a bad suggestion at all....

@Free, I don't think she's that tall and Eg, demure and modest... maybe at the begining...
Mcswan- Arnold??? Got quite the bunch of geriatrics going for you.
463. Freelancer

Ali Larter is at least 7" taller than Hayden Panettierre. But aside from that Egwene has almost black hair, and is never described as willowy thin. Yes, Egwene loses her "girl in the background" style, but she's never not modest, meaning decent.

Back to McSwan, I'll accept Kevin Bacon as Osan'gar only if we get a real clear shot of him as Dashiva getting wiped from that hilltop during the cleansing. Jennifer Tilley, doesn't she play poker?
Mitchell Swan
464. mcswan
@461 & @462

As I said, this was from many, many years ago, when rasfwr-j did one of these run throughs.

Even then, for me, it was not so much a desired cast list as it was a compilation of what I visualize when I think of the characters.

I just don't have the willpower required to go through that exercise again!
Galen Brinn
465. GatheringStorm
Andre the Giant as Loial?! LMAO! Too funy! A good call, though. Too bad he is "no longer available" to play the part. Who else could pull that off?
466. Rand Al'Todd

Yes, you did say an old list.

However, if we were talking 10-15 years ago, I think it is a very good list.

Wish I still had the list we came up with for LOTR in 1966 - I think we had Ringo playing Bilbo. I can't recall the rest.

LOTR, as made, was worth the wait, especially compared to what 60's special effects would have been.

I guess we may need to wait for improved CGI to have any actors keep age long enough for a WOT series of movies to actual be produced - Either that or go through a series of character updates ala the Bond franchise.

Look at the lag time between Potter movies and what that has done to the kids.
467. Rand Al'Todd
Re my 466 above:

And if we have to wait on CGI characters of real Hollywood actors,

Then, out of all the classic stars, CGI'ed to match any given point in their carriers, who would you cast?

Given an 18 year old CGI Liz Taylor, who would she play?

Bacall as Lanfear?

Eastwood as he appeared in "Fist Full of Dollars"?

James Jones
468. jamesedjones
461 Freelancer

You've got too much respect for Verin, and not enough love. She has to be played by someone who can pull off the absentminded "funny" character. Someone like Mr Rooney's secretary on Ferris Beuler's Day Off. That actress is too old, but you get the idea.
Kurt Lorey
469. Shimrod
What are we talking about here?

How an actor looks? If it is just on looks, then for some characters I can see the point.

Their acting abilities? Get out of town! I'm not sure I can agree with 10% here. Teri Hatcher as Suian?!? Teri Hatcher couldn't pull off Joline Maza on a good day.

Name Recognition?

All credibility went down the toilet with the name Dolph Lundgren. Why not just add Brigitte Nielsen, then? And who said Lauren Bacall as Lanfear? Not on MY list.

This is why I would mainly stay away from "known" actors (gender-neutral). Most actors just "act" like a variation of themselves, and for most there would be way too many preconceptions to overcome (whether it be looks or personality).
Andrew Lovsness
470. drewlovs
If you have seen "Total Recall", there is a scene where they announce to the world Arnold's character has been killed. They had used 2 actors fighting, and super-imposed Jesse Ventura's and Arnold's faces over the two guys fighting, CG style.

I always thought that would make for a weird time for Hollywood if it ever happened; why would you need new actors when you could use a young, middle aged or old {insert your favorite actor/atress here} instead of someone new?
471. alreadymadwithanticipatedpost
Rand Al'Todd @467
They grew up. And not all did so nicely. I thought we'd lose all of them by the end of the franchise, but I guess they decided to stay.
472. Freelancer

My respect is for Mare Winningham's body of work. Doctor, druggie, lawyer, groupie, homeless single mother, barmaid, veterinarian, governor, battered wife, forensic pathologist, high society madam, mental patient...

She can do absent-minded sneaky, because SHE IS absent-minded sneaky. And in spite of turning 50 (last week, but you didn't hear it from me!), she can look younger, or maybe somewhat ageless.
Blake Engholm
473. UncrownedKing
We are about to have a mini-TG in here if a post doesn't surface here soon......Leigh?
Blake Engholm
474. UncrownedKing
BTW We have most certainly broke TOR and I feel we could destroy any site we wish.

What site is next on the hit list? Google? Yahoo? ESPN? Youtube (Prevent Rfife from rollin us)?
Kurt Lorey
475. Shimrod
@470 That was The Running Man, not Total Recall.
Andrew Lovsness
476. drewlovs
What's the magic number? How many posts did it take last time, does anyone know?

You are right, of course... it was The Running Man.
Kevin Morgan
477. DrMorganstien
drelovs @470
that was "The Running Man"
but good point

@ RobMRobM
HUZAH! I'm not the only Mass person around.
There are quite a few W towns around...hope you are enjoying the state as much as I am.

EDIT: well-played shimrod
John Fitzingo
478. Xandar01
It took over 800 posts to break, TSR part 10 (which is the only post that is closed to comments)

Funny thing about the Running Man CG thing, it has been used VERY recently in a sort of ironic way.

EDIT: Just tried checking the link above and it is broke again.
479. RobMRobM
Dr. M - yes, I'm in the W town through which people run in April and close enough to Kimballs to make the occasional drive up 95 and 2. Nice to have you here as well. Rob
Josh Davis
480. YoSoyElJosh
@478 Xandar01

Referring to the Green Lantern trailer?
Galen Brinn
481. GatheringStorm
I think we'd gotten TSR Part X to 845 posts (or thereabouts). Some people were complaining about it taking forever to load well before that point but I never had a problem until they actually killed it for comments. At that point, I started getting some sort of "memory error".

Seing as it's been a week since the last new thread, I'm surprised that this one has had as much posting-restraint as we seemed to have had. Of course, maybe the US holiday weekend had something to do with it.

Edit: I just tried to get to Part X and oddly, I still get those errors...
Alan Perry
482. stepper
474@uncrownedking lol, yes we will stop the R.Fife!

483. Digital_Eon
mcswan @460:

Alan Rickman as Taim - YES!

On the subject of how we imagine characters, I've been picturing Lanfear as kinda Asian, actually. Though I still think Angelina Jolie would be a good choice to play her if it ever came up.
484. Wolfmage

"tGH is book 2."
Correct. My mistake.

"I don't see the point in explaining what Rand's potential is at an event where it is far from realized."

Well I only mention it because we're assumingly discussing skill in an overall sense, and the way you stated Turak was better seemed to diminish Rand's overall skill, without qualifying that such a ranking would only plausibly hold for less than half of the books. Discussion of potential is only relevant here to my mind because it gels with Rand's natural growth trajectory with the sword, and I think it provides a path for a more charitable explanation for his victory over Turak than your implication that he won through pure ta'veren luck forcing the outcome.

I think of it as the difference between a very young Mozart playing a concerto and winning a prize, compared to a young Salieri playing a concerto and winning a prize. In both cases, they are excellent at their chosen craft and they both win. However, one has potential the other doesn't. So no matter how lucky Mozart might have been to win, we still know he has potential waiting to come which will be proof of his objective skill.

This little excursion started with talk of a potential encounter b/n Rand and Gawyn, so I'm just pointing out that if we want to think about who is deadlier in such a match it makes sense to pick the apex of Rand's skill just as we would not rank Gawyn based entirely on his days in training. Obviously in a real hypothetical in book 12, that would mean Rand with one-hand. But if we want to make it a fair fight, and with counter-factual though-experiment of Rand still having his left hand, then wouldn't we naturally pick Rand's skill right before he loses his hand? If not, why not?

If yes, then the more relevant question is - how does Rand rank in book 11 compared to other
blademasters. My conjectural answer would be that he is certainly better than either Turok or Toram before they died.

"AT THE TIME he faced Turak, he was a less skilled swordsman.'
Yes, I already acknowledged exactly that.
485. catchinUP
trying to catch up via audio books, but only at TGH. I posted there (but am a couple months late). Reposted, as I'd love to hear feedback.

There's a stanza of the Dark Prophecy which I've never seen covered, and wondered if it fits here...

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.

Everyone seems to agree that "the ancient tree" is avendesora...
but Verin assumes the stanza is talking about "Tarabon, whose symbol is a tree (supposedly a branch of the Tree of Life)" (from the WOTFAQ)
(which holds with the first line about Toman's Head)

but what if the "burn the ancient tree" is ... well... the burning of the ancient tree in Rhuidean? (which Verin doesn't know about)

which would make Rand the seed....
then "slay the ancient wrong" could be destroying Mordeth / Mash / SL / the evil created by man, which Rand also does....
which implies Rand is "the seed of the Hammer"...

perhaps "seed" doesn't mean descendant of (though it could, who knows) - could "the third" voice in rands head be Hawkwing? Was LTT a tavern? Is Rand a merge of the strongest male channeler and strongest taverin in history?

Until this reread I never noticed how many times Rand gets compared to Hawkwing. If he's also Hawkwing reborn there's a tonne of foreshadowing to it.
Tess Laird
486. thewindrose
Hey catchinUP-
We had a lot of thoughts on LTT, Hawkwing, and Rand. When the HoV calls back the heroes in the battle of Falme, Hawkwing hails LTT and Rand says to the effect = I am not LTT.

Hawkwing "You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand. From The Great Hunt 'The Grave Is No Bar To My Call'

Rand gets compared to Hawkwing, but only as a measure of how much more ta'veren Rand is. Rand is LTT reborn, but the 'Creator' Robert Jorden has said there are not two souls in the Dragon Reborn - it is Rand - and he is hearing voices - we all hope this is resolved in the upcoming three books.
487. edhardy
Joshua Zelenka
488. jzelenka
So... I just realized something I hadn't in the past...

"Suddenly the rain is gone from the ledge, blocked by an expanding dome that is pushing the Aiel and Mat away with only him under it."

HOLD THE PHONE - didn't Mat have the Fox medallion by now? Wouldn't he just not have been affected by Lanfear's bubble?

I obviously wouldn't have known what's up on my first read-through, but upon the re-read I was like - wait a minute!

Anyone else notice this and I'm just slow? Admittedly, I'm re-reading the summaries months after they have been posted - but I'm just saying.


Josh Z.
Birgit F
489. birgit
posting statistics up to the end of tSR

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Richard Fife
490. R.Fife
Wow, at this point I was more talkative than Free. Crazy. Anyway, My End-of-Book contribution (somewhat late). The TSR Parody Song!

To Seize Saidin (Rand's Aria)
Sung to "The Who - Behind Blue Eyes"

With this sword in my hand
I have the power
To make a flower
To seize Saidin

I am as though a god
Yet I'm helpless
I can't do this
The girl won't wake again!

Invade all my dreams
I must go where they won't see

To the Aiel, for prophecy
I'll come with the dawn,
Bind them to me.

I've left my home to burn
But secretly hope
Golden eyes
Can pull it through.

I must make myself hard
Do my duty
Hide my uncertainty
What to do?

Lanfear has
her own plans for us
Asmodean to teach me

I will use him, in my own way
Cut him from Shai'tain
Bind him to me.

Can't think of the girls, in Tanchico
And I won't trust any Aes Sedai
Even Egwene is growing distant
I am on my own, destined to die!

And Tarmon Gaidon will soon be looming
End of the Age brought by me
The unstained tower, it will now be broken
Civil war, the world's not ready

So I'll be the Dragon
And them, I'll unite
cause I have the right
To seize Saidin!
491. Gambit
HOLD THE PHONE - didn't Mat have the Fox medallion by now? Wouldn't he just not have been affected by Lanfear's bubble?

Perhaps the bubble just pushed Pips, and Mat was carried along?
492. tiffany Jewellery
To the Aiel, for prophecy,I'll come with the dawn,
Bind them to jewelry
links of london
link of london
links of london bracelet
493. srEDIT
Hi, everyone! (where'd they all go?)

I couldn't be later than late, but I'm just now catching up ...reading every word of ALL posts, even TSR, part 10! it feels as if I know you all.

I just *had* to chime in on the casting call. Personally, I was surprised that for Lan no one has suggested Rufus Sewell. If you're looking for a weathered face with hard edges and angles . . . he's got it!
494. Divil The bother
Just wanted to chip in on Egwene and her "maturing". She always strikes me as totally self centred and childish. She is also very slow to see the good qualities in others and quick to assume the worst of people she grew up with while hero worshipping those she barely knows. A shallow person who for some reason Jordan has decided should be a formidable character but can't write it convincingly - hence the silly "trick" of remaining calm and not shouting makes everyone really impressed with her. You get a similar plot arc for Faile when people start swearing fealty all over the shop for no apparent reason.
I suppose some things just happen because Jordan has decided that's the way it will be.

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