Fri
May 15 2009 2:46pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Shadow Rising, Part 19

Well, this should be interesting, because I’ve just come from the Tor.com soiree/get-together/confab/thingy in the Village, which was tons of fun, mostly through putting faces to names and emails, and there was alcohol involved, and now I’m writing. Be Afraid.

So, welcome to the third-or-fourth-I-kind-of-forget-which-last entry involving The Shadow Rising of the Wheel of Time Re-read, in which we cover the hella long Chapters 52 and 53.

Previous entries are over there, and spoilers abound and abet and abraise you with their spoileryness. But you knew that, even if you never dreamed of phrasing it that way.

On to post-y goodness, eh?

Chapter 52: Need

What Happens
Nynaeve stands in the Stone in Tel’aran’rhiod, seething over the revelation that Egeanin was a vile Seanchan. She had so few friends, and to find one and then lose her like this was maddening. From behind her, Egwene comments that she’s wearing an odd dress, and Nynaeve jumps a mile and turns to find Egwene standing with two women who Nynaeve guesses from Elayne’s descriptions must be Amys and Bair; then she realizes she’s wearing a dress made from chain mail and a helmet. Embarrassed, she changes it back to a Two Rivers dress, and Bair tells her she must learn to control her thoughts in the dream. Nynaeve retorts she is just fine, thank you, and then notices the women look misty and transparent; Egwene explains that they are in transit, and entering the dream while in a saddle is rather difficult. Egwene brings Nynaeve up to date on what’s going on with Rand, and confesses she is deeply worried that Rand is already losing it. Nynaeve puts an arm around her to comfort her, and then gives her the news from Tanchico. She asks the Wise Ones if they know a way for her to get into Amathera’s dreams to see if she is a Darkfriend, and Bair calls her a foolish girl for even suggesting it. She tells Nynaeve that in another’s dream, the other is in control of everything. Nynaeve wants to tug her braid, but for some reason that had felt uncomfortable lately, so she clenches her fist and tells Bair and Amys off, saying she had told women older than they when to sit down and be quiet as Wisdom.

Abruptly she realized her single braid had split in two, one over each ear, red ribbons woven through to make tassels on the ends. Her skirt was so short it showed her knees, she wore a loose white blouse like the Wise Ones, and her shoes and stockings were gone. Where had this come from? She had surely never thought of wearing anything like it. Egwene put a hasty hand over her mouth. Was she aghast? Surely not smiling.

She struggles to change her clothes back, and finally manages it, and, unsure whether the Wise Ones were responsible or not, decides to pretend the whole thing hadn’t happened. She asks if she can bring Amathera into the Dreamworld instead, then, and both Wise Ones snap that such a thing is evil and forbidden. Nynaeve pretends she is not unnerved by their stares, and tells them that she and Elayne need help; the Black Ajah is very close to finding something which might let them control Rand. Bair and Amys discuss among themselves, and though Bair thinks it is too dangerous, Amys tells Nynaeve there is something that might help her, something the Wise Ones do when they need to find a new source of water in the Waste. She explains that need is the key; if you concentrate on what you need strongly enough, you can bring yourself to it in the dream.

“The danger is this, and you must be aware of it.” The Wise One leaned toward her intently, driving her words home with a tone as sharp as her gaze. “Each step is made blind, with eyes closed. You cannot know where you will be when you open your eyes. And finding the water does no good if you are standing in a den of vipers. The fangs of a mountain king kill as quickly in the dream as waking. I think these women Egwene speaks of will kill more quickly than the snake.”

Egwene exclaims she has done this already, and adds hastily that it was before she met Amys. Feeling grateful, Nynaeve hugs Egwene and gives the Wise Ones advice on how to deal with her tendency to jump ahead, which Amys and Bair seem to find ironic. She tells Egwene she or Elayne will meet her here again in seven days; by then, Egwene says, Rand will have all the Aiel behind him (she does not notice Amys and Bair shifting at her words), and Nynaeve says by then they will have the item that threatens Rand. She thinks privately that if not, then the Black Ajah will likely have it. Egwene tells Nynaeve to be careful, though she adds she knows Nynaeve won’t, and she and Amys and Bair vanish. Nynaeve realizes she didn’t tell Egwene about Egeanin, but thinks it would be better not to stir up Egwene’s memories of her captivity anyway.

Nynaeve could remember all too well the other woman’s nightmares for weeks after she was freed, waking up screaming that she would not be chained. Much the best to let it lie. It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman. Burn that woman! Burn Egeanin to ash! Burn her!

Nynaeve changes her clothes back to her Taraboner disguise, and then realizes she can change her hair and face too. She conjures a tall mirror and makes herself look like Rendra, and thinks triumphantly that if this wasn’t being careful, she didn’t know what was. She closes her eyes and concentrates on her need to find what was threatening Rand in Tanchico, and opens them to find herself in an ornate bedroom, with a woman wearing only a stole and a crown standing against one of the bedposts, facing another woman with her back to Nynaeve, lounging on a couch and looking as misty as Egwene had earlier. Even from the back, Nynaeve instantly recognizes Temaile Kinderode. Temaile is laughing and considering what song she is going to make Amathera learn next, and then asks what Amathera is staring at; before Temaile can turn and see Nynaeve, she squeezes her eyes shut and concentrates on need again. This time she opens them in the exhibition hall of the Palace, heart pounding.

Speak of landing in a vipers’ den. Temaile Kinderode. The Black sister Amico had said enjoyed causing pain, enjoyed it enough to have made one of the Black Ajah comment. And her not able to channel a spark.

She calms herself, and thinks that at least she knows for sure that Amathera is no ally of the Black Ajah. She examines the hall, sure that what she was looking for must be here, and sees a dark-haired, handsome woman appear a ways down, wearing a shockingly transparent gown that looks like mist. Nynaeve thinks she must be someone who randomly dreamed herself into Tel’aran’rhiod, and waits for her to vanish, but the woman grins at something in a glass case and then moves to study something else on a white stone stand, and Nynaeve thinks there is something about the woman that bothers her.

Nynaeve realized she had taken hold of a handful of braids again. The woman... Of its own accord her hand pulled—hard—and she stared at it in amazement; her knuckles were white, her hand quivering. It was almost as if thinking of that woman... Arm shaking, her hand tried to yank her hair out of her scalp. Why under the Light?

Explosively, Nynaeve’s memory of what had happened to her and Elayne in the inn comes back; she remembers the two of them fighting eagerly for the chance to spill their guts to this woman, and is suddenly murderously angry. She doesn’t understand why the woman, who she thinks must be a Black sister not on their list, didn’t turn them over to Liandrin, but is too enraged to care, and prepares to step out and confront her. Before she can, though, a woman who looks like Birgitte appears, puts a finger to her mouth, and nods toward an archway before vanishing. Nynaeve ignores this and prepares to step out anyway, but then sees that the mist-clad woman is gone. Furious that the woman pretending to be Birgitte had distracted her, Nynaeve storms through the doorway and demands to know who the other woman thinks she is, interfering right as she was about to teach a Black sister a lesson.

“I am Birgitte,” the woman said, leaning on her bow. “At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well-read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin’s side. I will never forget Moghedien’s face, any more than I will forget the face of Asmodean, the man you almost disturbed at Rhuidean.”

This revelation only makes Nynaeve angrier, mostly because she can’t warn Egwene for seven days, and she asks what Birgitte is doing here, considering she’s supposed to be dead. Birgitte explains that death is not the same for those bound to the Horn, and she waits in the Dreamworld to be born again. Nynaeve says they could use her help, but Birgitte says she cannot affect the real world until she is born again, and then she would only be a helpless infant. She adds that she shouldn’t be talking to Nynaeve at all; they are forbidden to talk to those who know they are in the Dreamworld, but Birgitte knows there is evil walking the world, and she is attracted to those she sees fighting against it, like Nynaeve and the other two women, and the young man with the wolves, even though it “violates the precepts”. A harsh male voice agrees that it does, and Nynaeve whirls to see an ugly man with two swords on his back who she realizes must be Gaidal Cain. Birgitte smiles at him fondly.

“We have almost always been linked,” Birgitte told Nynaeve without taking her eyes from Cain’s. “He is usually born well before me—so I know my time approaches again when I cannot find him—and I usually hate him at first sight in the flesh. But we nearly always end lovers or wed. A simple story, but I think we have spun it out in a thousand variations.”

Cain tells Birgitte that nothing but pain has come from ignoring the precepts, and Birgitte replies that she cannot sit by while the Shadow rises. He growls, asking if she’s forgotten what Moghedien promised her when they followed Lews Therin. He moves away, ignoring Nynaeve completely, and Nynaeve asks Birgitte to tell her about Moghedien. Birgitte answers that Moghedien takes no risks, and attacks only where she sees weakness; she will run if she thinks there is even a chance of defeat. But she warns Nynaeve not to take Moghedien lightly, especially not in Tel’aran’rhiod; Lanfear might claim the Dreamworld as hers, but Moghedien far outstrips her in ability here, though Lanfear is stronger in the real world. Nynaeve asks what it was Moghedien promised Birgitte, and Birgitte looks at Cain.

“She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet.”

Birgitte warns Nynaeve again to be careful, and tells her they will meet again if Nynaeve survives. She goes to Cain, and they both disappear. Nynaeve wonders why everyone keeps telling her to be careful. The thought of Moghedien makes her furious again, and she appears back in the hall, filled with the Power, but it is still empty. She debates going up and teaching Temaile a lesson in lieu of Moghedien, but decides to see what the Forsaken was grinning at instead. She goes over to the case and sees that it contains one of the seals on the Dark One’s prison. Nynaeve knows this must be gotten away from the Black Ajah, too, but decides to try to find the other thing too. She tries the need trick again, and opens her eyes to find she is standing in front of a white stone pedestal with a necklace and two bracelets made of black metal on it. She reaches to touch them, and jerks her hand back at the wash of pain and sorrow that comes from them. She realizes that this was the other thing Moghedien was looking at, but at that moment Elayne shakes her awake.

Nynaeve’s eyes popped open, staring up at her. “If she knows what it is, why hasn’t she given it to them? If they know who she is, why does she have to look at it in Tel’aran’rhiod? Is she hiding from them, too?”

Elayne asks what she’s talking about, and Nynaeve relates her adventures. Elayne and Egeanin listen in disbelief, and Elayne hopes Nynaeve doesn’t kick up a fuss about her untying Egeanin’s hands. Elayne cannot remember the incident with Moghedien in the inn at all, and fights nausea at the thought of it. Nynaeve growls that she has a score to settle with Moghedien. Moving on to the items Nynaeve had found, Elayne asks how jewelry can be dangerous to Rand, and almost simultaneously she and Nynaeve look at Egeanin, making the connection. Egeanin tells them she’s never heard of an a’dam that can control a male channeler, but Elayne is sure that that is what this is. Nynaeve theorizes that Moghedien knows what it is, but for some reason has not told Liandrin and Co. about them. They begin to plan how to get the bracelets and the seal out of the Palace, but are interrupted by a commotion outside the door; the three rush out to find Juilin and Domon standing over a blond man unconscious on the floor, and Thom getting up with a hand to his head. Elayne rushes to help him, but he says it was nothing; the blond man had kicked him in the head, but he’s fine. Elayne is indignant at this. Juilin and Domon snipe at each other over who had come to the rescue, but their animosity seems unfocused, and Elayne realizes that Nynaeve and Egeanin are only wearing shifts, and Juilin and Domon are eyeing them appreciatively. Nynaeve glares at Juilin and stalks back into the room, but to Elayne’s surprise Egeanin shrieks in dismay and literally leaps back inside. Elayne stares at the men disapprovingly, but they ignore her; Juilin examines the blond and exclaims in surprise that this was the same man who tried to rob him, and then frowns and says he does not believe in coincidence. Elayne and Nynaeve look at Egeanin, who confirms the man is Seanchan, but no friend of hers, especially if he finds out she released Bethamin. She suggests they slit his throat, which shocks Juilin and Domon, but Nynaeve tells the men to dump him in the alley and meet back in the private dining room to make plans. As Nynaeve and Egeanin get dressed, Elayne tries to advise Egeanin to just ignore the men when they do things like that. Egeanin snaps back that she is “no shea dancer”, but adds thoughtfully that “he” is rather good-looking, though. Elayne thinks she means Juilin, and is startled to learn Egeanin was talking about Domon.

Elayne supposed there was no accounting for tastes—Nynaeve certainly loved Lan, and he was much too stone-faced and intimidating—but Bayle Domon? The man was half as wide as he was tall, as thick as an Ogier!

Nynaeve snaps that if they are quite done chattering about men...? Elayne is annoyed, but moves on, telling Nynaeve that she has thought of a way to move around the Palace undetected, and the three of them begin to plan.

Commentary
I continue to feel sympathy for Nynaeve in the beginning of this chapter in her vastly conflicting feelings about Egeanin. I never really noticed it before (which is something I seem to be saying a lot in this recap series), but her comment about how she has so few friends that she really resents losing one was very poignant to me. I heart Nynaeve in general, but there’s no doubt that she is the kind of person who does not make friends easily; this is a recurring problem for anyone who is both as blunt and abrasive, and yet as guarded and secretly uncertain as Nynaeve is. Also, that whole “running to all corners of the map and saving the world a lot” thing tends to get in the way of maintaining an active social life, for some reason. Who’d’ve thunk it?

This entire chapter is something of a mini-character study on Nynaeve, really, leaving aside all the plot-advancing and infodumpy stuff. I’ve mentioned it before, but it’s worth reiterating the number of similarities she shares with Mat, specifically in the way they both make their obstinate refusal to examine their own psyches bizarrely charming. I had to chuckle at her thought halfway through, wondering why everyone kept telling her to be careful, because the way she views herself is so unlike the way everyone around her does, both in her negative traits and her positive ones. I don’t know why I find it so, well, adorable that neither she nor Mat seem to have any conception of how brave they really are. Of course, neither of them seems to get how obnoxious they can be, either, but at least that’s consistent.

I really do get why some people have such a problem with her, by the way. I guess, though, that for me courage and competence trump far worse personality flaws than Nynaeve’s been given. The fact that she is brave to the point of stupidity (some might say, considerably beyond that) is only a plus in my book; there is something viscerally satisfying in having a character around who is willing to go the HULK SMASH route no matter what the personal risk – at least in a fictional character.

It’s even more a treat to see it in a female character. Girls so rarely get to be the “lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way” type in fiction – or at least, to be that and not be penalized and/or judged for it – that I feel obliged to trumpet the coolness of it.

Anyway. Moving on to Birgitte, aka Chatty McExposition, at least in this chapter. Sheesh. Actually, no, she’s been that in all her appearances thus far in the series, hasn’t she? Well, I guess someone had to explain to us What is Up with all the new concepts introduced in the last two books. For someone who’s contractually forbidden to talk with Our Heroes she’s done an awful lot of Esplaining, thus far.

(And who exactly is the co-signer on these “precepts”, anyway? The Creator? Did he have an informational seminar with Birgitte and Hawkwing and everyone else who got bound to the Horn in which he detailed the conditions of their sub-letted tenancy in Tel’aran’rhiod in between lives, or what? Seems a little... involved for Mr. I WILL TAKE NO PART, eh?)

I did like her character analysis of Moghedien, though. I didn’t quote it in the recap, but her description of Moggy as a snake coiled in high grass, waiting her moment to strike, was a nicely deft way of introducing a new and different kind of villain to the series. The irony that Moghedien’s method of attack is most devastatingly used on Birgitte herself later on just adds that extra spice to it.

I’m glad that Juilin has re-acquired a little backbone by this time, even if it takes the form of ogling women in lingerie (or what passes for lingerie in WOT). While I find it a little annoying that Juilin never really quite gets the character development he deserves, I have to confess I’m rather enjoying this state of affairs that makes the male characters adjuncts to the women, instead of the much-more-common other way around.

Chapter 53: The Price of a Departure

What Happens
An exhausted Perrin sits with Tam, Abell, Bran, Faile, and Cenn in the inn, trying not to hear the Women’s Circle across the room discussing how little food is left. Cenn complains that the women are getting to use lamps while they make do with candles, and Tam, Abell and Bran variously tell him to quit complaining and wasting Perrin’s time. Perrin wishes they would stop worrying about that, or better yet tell him to run along and let them handle matters. As the men discuss weapons supplies, he tries to remember how many attacks there had been in the last seven days, and cannot.

“ ...mustn’t let the men know,” Marin was saying softly, as if repeating a caution voiced before.

“Of course not,” Daise snorted, but not much louder. “If the fools find out the women are on half rations, they’ll insist on eating the same, and we can’t... ”

Perrin thinks that he is glad none of the women have had to fight yet, besides Bain and Chiad and Faile of course. Bran tries to suggest Perrin go to bed, but Perrin tells him he’ll sleep later. They are interrupted by Dannil bursting in to tell Perrin the Whitecloaks have brought a badly wounded man to the village who insists on speaking only to Perrin. Perrin and Faile get up, and Aram, who’s been lurking in the stairway, stands too, hesitantly, and Perrin tells him gruffly to come along if he’s coming. He thinks that neither Raen or Ila had spoken to Aram or Perrin since that day in the inn, and now Aram follows him around constantly when he’s not pestering Tam or the Warders to teach him swordcraft. Outside, Dannil tells off ten of the Companions, as they are now (to Perrin’s disgruntlement) called, to guard him as he walks to where the Whitecloak patrol, led by Byar, has brought the wounded man. The man has an arrow stuck through his chest, and Perrin demands to know if anyone has sent for the Aes Sedai. The man struggles to speak, asking for Perrin Goldeneyes. He tells the man that he is Perrin.

“Goldeneyes? I—cannot see—very well.” His wide, wild stare was right at Perrin’s face; if he could see at all, the fellow must see his eyes shining golden in the dark.

“I am Perrin Goldeneyes,” he said reluctantly.

The man seized his collar, pulling his face close with surprising strength. “We are—coming. Sent to—tell you. We are co—” His head fell back, eyes staring at nothing now.

Perrin asks if anyone knows him, but the Two Rivers men all shake their heads; Perrin asks the Whitecloaks if the man said anything else, but Byar just snarls “Shadowspawn!” under his breath and takes off. Perrin supposes the man might have meant that holdout farm folk are finally coming in, though he doubts that anyone could have survived out there that long. He staggers upright, and Faile tells him he needs to get some sleep, and he thinks he should have found some way to make her stay in Tear. A young boy runs up to tug on Perrin’s sleeve, and tell “Lord Perrin” that there’s something moving in the Westwood. Perrin tells him sharply not to call him that, and to go tell them he’s on his way. He ignores Faile’s protests, and her attempt to physically drag him back to the inn, and she is reduced to muttering sotto voce imprecations at him she still seems to think he cannot hear. They get to the west end of the village to find Tomas, Bain and Chiad there. Tomas says he thinks it is only one, but he thought Perrin might be able to tell.

Perrin nodded. Everyone knew about his vision, especially in darkness. The Two Rivers people seemed to think it something special, something that marked him out an idiot hero. What the Warders thought, or the Aes Sedai, he had no idea. He was too tired to care tonight.

He looks carefully, and sees a large shape approaching, and then realizes it is carrying a human figure, and begins laughing, calling for Loial and Gaul to come in. The others all cheer him on, and Loial hurries past the defensive perimeter and sinks to the ground, exhausted. Gaul is limping badly, and almost all their weapons are gone; Bain and Chiad instantly descend upon Gaul and start fussing over the wound in his thigh. Loial tells Perrin that they did it; the Waygate is closed as of four days ago, and no one other than an Aes Sedai or the Elders can open it again. Gaul adds that Loial carried him most of the way, outrunning a Fade and fifty Trollocs for three days. He tries to push the Maidens away, and Chiad snaps at him to lie still or she will say she has touched him armed, which reduces Gaul to splutters, but he lets them tend his leg. Loial assures Perrin that he is not hurt, only tired, and tells him it is very bad out there; he thinks there must be several thousand Trollocs in the Two Rivers, and maybe fifty Myrddraal. Luc appears at that moment and loudly declares Loial is wrong; he estimates less than a thousand are still out there, and tosses a bag with another Fade head in it to Perrin, who promptly hurls it out past the stakes. Gaul angrily supports Loial’s estimate.

Luc’s teeth showed white in a smile. “How many days have you spent in the Blight, Aiel? I have spent many.” Perhaps it was more snarl than smile. “Many. Believe what you wish, Goldeneyes. The endless days will bring what they bring, as they always have.”

He gallops off, and Loial says he and Gaul know what they saw. Perrin thanks him and Gaul, and tells them to get some sleep, and Faile interjects that Perrin needs sleep too. Bain and Chiad are helping Gaul walk, him growling furiously about it (Perrin overhears Chiad say something about “gai’shain”, and Bain laughs), and Perrin lets Faile take him back to the inn and his bedroom. After he promises her he will sleep and she leaves, he lays down and thinks about several thousand Trollocs, and whether Luc could possibly be trusted on his lower estimate, and thinks there’s one way for him to find out.

He stands on the empty Green in the wolf dream, and checks for ravens. As he does so, windows in the sky open:

Egwene stood among a crowd of women, fear in her eyes; slowly the women knelt around her. Nynaeve was one of them, and he believed he saw Elayne’s red-gold hair. That window faded and was replaced. Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest. Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

Perrin shivers, and finds he is wearing the hammer again, and has to fight to make it change into the axe; he arms himself with a bow as well, and flits around the Two Rivers in a widening spiral from Emond’s Field. He finds hundreds of Trolloc campsites, confirming Loial and Gaul’s estimate of thousands of Trollocs, all seeming centered on Emond’s Field. He goes to Deven Ride, and finds rudimentary defense precautions there that would not have held off even one of the attacks Emond’s Field had suffered, and only enough Trolloc campsites to keep the villagers hemmed in. He flits to Watch Hill, and finds much the same, along with a banner sporting a red eagle on a field of blue. He remembers that the Red Eagle was the symbol of Manetheren, and supposes Verin and Alanna were telling stories while they were there. Taren Ferry is more than half burned to the ground, with no defenses set up, and Perrin thinks the people might be all gone; across the river he finds debris left behind from fleeing villagers, and wonders why the Fades were letting anyone escape to spread the word, even though any help from outside would almost certainly come too late. He bends down to pick up a doll, and an arrow streaks through where his torso had been a second earlier. He instantly dashes a hundred paces away, nocking an arrow, and starts to run further, but then remembers how visible that makes you to anyone standing still, and decides not to play Slayer’s game this time. He waits.

Ravens swooped above the treetops, searching and calling. No movement to give him away; not a twitch. Only his eyes moved, studying the forest around him. A vagrant puff of air brought him a cold smell, human yet not, and he smiled. No sound save the ravens, though; this Slayer stalked well. But he was not used to being hunted.

Perrin catches a glimpse of Slayer’s face, and thinks again of the resemblance to Lan. He continues to wait, and Slayer soon appears again thirty paces away. Perrin waits for him to move into the open, then stands and shoots him in one motion.

The ravens screamed warning, and Slayer spun to take the broadhead shaft in his chest, but not through the heart. The man howled, clutching the arrow with both hands; black feathers rained down as the ravens beat their wings in a frenzy. And Slayer faded, him and his cry together, growing misty, transparent, vanishing.

Perrin thinks, so that’s what it looks like to die here, and thinks that at least the wolves are safe now. He steps out of the dream, waking up in his room, and tries to think of how to do what he had to do. He hears a commotion outside, and opens the window and calls down to ask what the ruckus is. Dannil, calling him “Lord Perrin”, yells back that Lord Luc just galloped off all hunched over like he was wounded, and nearly rode down Wil and Tell. Perrin considers this, puzzled; Slayer looked he could like be Lan’s brother or cousin, but if Luc looked like anyone, it was maybe Rand a little. He can’t figure out what the connection could be, and then realizes that both men had the same cold, inhuman scent. He tells Dannil to stop calling him that, and that if Luc comes back he is to be put under guard. Perrin goes down to the common room, where Gaul is sleeping, Loial is scribbling away furiously, and Faile is talking with Bain and Chiad. Faile orders him back up to his bed, but he ignores her and asks if she saw Luc leave, and whether he seemed wounded. She confirms both, slowly, and asks how he knew; he replies that he dreamed it, and says he has a favor to ask her. Trying to make his voice casual, he tells her he wants her to take a message for him to Caemlyn, to ask Morgase for help for the Two Rivers. He says he knows it is a dangerous thing he is asking, but she will have Bain and Chiad to help. Chiad stands up, looking anxious, and Faile tells her she will not have to leave him.

After a moment the Aiel woman nodded and resumed her seat beside Gaul. Chiad and Gaul? They were blood enemies. Nothing was making sense tonight.

Faile says quietly that it is a long way to Caemlyn, weeks there and weeks back. Perrin lies that they can hold out that long easily, and that there are only a thousand or so Trollocs out there, but they will need the Guard to get rid of them completely, and Faile is the logical one to go, knowing how to talk to a queen and all. Loial comes up and gives Faile a book of notes, asking her to keep it for him if she is going to Caemlyn.

“Forgive me for interrupting, Perrin.” But his teacup eyes were on her, not him. “Faile suits you. You should fly free, like a falcon.” Patting Perrin on the shoulder, he murmured in a deep rumble, “She should fly free,” then made his way to his pallet and lay down facing the wall.

“He is very tired,” Perrin said, attempting to make it seem just a comment. The fool Ogier could ruin everything!

Faile stares at him silently for a while, then sits in his lap and remarks that his beard needs trimming. Perrin tries to bring her back to the subject, and she finally says she will go, but in return she demands a price: she wants to marry him. Perrin smiles and says he wants to marry her, too, but they will have to wait a year after the betrothal vows. She nearly yanks his beard out, and says fiercely that she will have him as husband tonight, or she won’t go. Perrin protests that he would if he could, but the Women’s Circle would never hear of it. Faile suddenly won’t look at him, and starts talking about how maybe she kind of sort of mentioned to Marin and Daise how long they’ve been traveling together, and they maybe sort of agreed that that could count as the year betrothal, and she’s being forward and brazen and if he ever even thinks of Berelain and now she’s babbling – he cuts her off with a kiss, and asks if she will marry him tonight, and then has to repeat himself six times while she giggles against his throat. Half an hour later finds them kneeling before the Women’s Circle, with Loial and Aram to stand for Perrin and Bain and Chiad for Faile.

“I, Perrin Aybara, do pledge you my love, Faile Bashere, for as long as I live.” For as long as I live and after. “What I possess in this world I give to you.” A horse, an axe, a bow. A hammer. Not much to gift a bride. I give you life, my love. It’s all I have. “I will keep and hold you, succor and tend you, protect and shelter you, for all the days of my life.” I can’t keep you; the only way I can protect you is to send you away. “I am yours, always and forever.” By the time he finished, his hands were shaking visibly.

Faile moved her hands to hold his. “I, Zarine Bashere... ” That was a surprise; she hated that name. “...do pledge you my love, Perrin Aybara...” Her hands never trembled at all.

Commentary
There may – MAY – have been a tiny sniffle, the first time I read this. MAYBE. There was certainly not full-on tearage. Not at all.

Look, you’re supposed to cry at weddings, okay? Quit judging! Judger!

Faile’s reaction to Perrin’s marriage proposal is seriously the cutest thing she’s ever done in the series, and I mean that in a good way. This is her time of greatest awesome and we should be enjoying that to the hilt, y’all.

I love that she instantly twigs to what Perrin is trying to do, and yet says nothing. Of course, this is because she’s planning to totally cheat on their agreement, but considering her more typical reaction is to fly into a rage and generally act like an armed five-year-old, I’ll take sneaky sneakiness any day. Especially when the result of said sneaky will be so very badass.

Loial: Everybody say it with me now: AWWWWW. And also, wow. Running for three days while carrying ~200 pounds of human?

(Did I just make Gaul fat? I’m thinking, he’s probably around six feet tall, lots of solid muscle, 200 pounds is about right, isn’t it? I don’t know these things.)

Speaking of Gaul, the Aiel mini-soap continues, and I’m wondering if Gaul and Chiad have actually yet said anything to each other approximating the Aiel equivalent of “Hey there, groovy chick and/or dude, you’re hep in a far out way”, or if it’s all been incoherent spluttering and oblique gai’shain references. Inquiring minds are inquiring!

Luc gets shot, yay! Tool. Bye now!

Though Perrin falls prey to one of the classic blunders here. The most famous of which – oh, you’ve seen that movie? But it’s so obscure!

Annnyway. Perrin does make the typical mistake here of assuming his enemy is dead without seeing the body, which as we all know is a gross violation of the Narrative Causality Code, which clearly states that if a character assumes an effect without witnessing it, the Irony Subclause practically demands that it turn out not to be so.

(Mm. I mentioned there was vodka at the Tor thingy, yes? And also, pink beer. And Japanese scotch, because Pablo is a rebel, y’all.)

I suppose I need to make a stink about Perrin trying to send Faile away, emo martyr self-sacrifice not letting her make her own choices etc., but I really don’t have much of an impulse to. Or only a small impulse to. Okay, maybe a medium-sized impulse to.

It’s one of those Guy Things which manages to be simultaneously endearing and exasperating, because hello, not a child here, can take care of myself, but at the same time how can you not appreciate that the guy wants to protect you, you know? It’s like, aw, that’s so sweet, now cut that shit out. And then he’s like “Wut?”, all hurt, and you’re like, sigh, gentle *headdesk*. It is a frustrating dilemma!

Clearly, the solution is to get married. And then recruit your husband an army. I APPROVE.


And that’s our show, kids! Have a splendiferously fantacular weekend, and I’ll see you Monday with the Start of the Beginning of the End of the Book of the Middle of the Series. ’Strewth!

237 comments
Nastinka
1. Nastinka
Thanks Leigh, fun read as always.
Nastinka
2. toryx
I remember really disliking Nynaeve in the beginning when I first read the books, but I can't remember if my dislike continued all the way through or not.

I will say that in this re-read, I'm liking her quite a lot, far more than I remember ever liking her before. And like Leigh, I feel a great deal of sympathy for her, particularly concerning the way she's treated in later books.

She makes mistakes, of course, but she definitely has a strength about her that is very admirable. And by jolly, she gets stuff done.
Nastinka
3. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Nynaeve has few friends? Gee, I wonder why. Maybe they'd stay if she didn't bully them so much. And of course, still stuck on being a power-tripping Wisdom, trying to bully not one, but two Aiel Wise Ones. The nerve.
Gaul at 200 pounds.... sounds just about right. At least in the 180's range anyway. As for Perrin assuming Slayer was dead. I have a quote from Dune for that. Never count a man dead until you have seen the body, and even then you cannot be sure. Can't deny he pwned, though.
Jason Henninger
4. jasonhenninger
"Luc gets shot, yay! Tool. Bye now!"

You know, even when I don't remember what event you're talking about, it is statements like that one that make your posts so much fun to read.
Sub Woofer
5. subwoofer
@Alreadymad,....
*sniff!* tugs her braid...
David Dudley
6. Warspoon
At 6' 180lbs would be a light athletic build, 200lbs would be well muscled.
Nastinka
7. Spook
Thanks Leigh,

I'm always looking forward to your posts.

Cheers!
Chris Hall
8. bookwormchris
Sneaky Faile seems to have been planning something like this for a while. Love how we get the hint that people are coming, but I doubt anyone really put any significance to that at the time.

Luc: I only have 1,000 of my... men out there
*runs away with wound*

Which brings up the question of who healed Luc, assuming it was done that way. I guess he could have healed naturally, if there is anything natural about that fellow(s).

Gotta love Nynaeve remembering the little Compulsion incident, although she should ease up on the hair pulling if she wants to have any left. Her battle with the Spider is great, but you know how slippery the Spider can be. Sneaky Nynaeve still has more to learn.

Insert Cain and Birgitte theories here. Birgitte is awesome after she gets ripped out of TAR, btw. Love how everyone is aghast at how she acts. *remembers some awesome Birgitte battle skillz later on*
j p
9. sps49
I forgot that Elayne didn't overcome the Compulsion even with Nyneave's prompting. And how many people do you think roll their eyes at N behind her back?

Boo Luc. Although I still don't understand what he is, exactly, or his motivations.

No Rand in this recap? Is that a first?
Nastinka
10. Digital_Eon
Quick and bizarre question, but I just got past that one scene in the middle of TFoH and Rand's reaction got me thinking - were Perrin and Faile sleeping together before this marriage thing? I think it was implied (or stated) that they were sharing rooms in the Stone of Tear, but it just seems so contrary to Two Rivers-raised Rand's reaction that I don't trust my memory and instead wish to either get a straight answer to the obvious or provoke a discussion on premarital sex customs in this world.

So... obvious answer?
Nastinka
11. teirza
I also noticed Nynaeve's comment about not having many friends on this read through. It really struck me as sad, but reflected her history, positions of authority and personality. I thought it was an example of the little things that make RJ's characters so interesting. He could have had her just rant as usual, but throws in the little "heart twinge".

Thanks for all the great work Leigh.
Nastinka
12. Sparrowhawk
Great summary as usual.

Spot on with the Nynaeve analysis - she is amazing but then she is so often saying things that increase everybody's blood pressure (perhaps like a certain WOT reviewer....*ducks to avoid his had being headdesked*

As for Perrin and Faile - its quite sweet, in an icky gooey way. However, the point about the need to "protect" Faile is, a tad, unfair.

In terms of how the WOT world measures success and power most of this is based on perceived strength - a lot of which is a manifestation of physical strength. Thus in order to protect the weak (ergo women and children) the concept of chivalry is instilled into the "good" characters (e.g. Perrin here, Mat's reluctance to kill a woman in TDR and Rand's self flaglation about most women). This is much like (as has often been mentioned) Arthurian/medieval concepts.

Now you may not like it (*ducks again*) but most societies at this stage of development are like this. In the real world women have only got closer to real "equality" (both in law and reality) in the late 20th/early 21st Centuries. Even then the majority of the world does not meet this concept (Afirca/South America/most of Asia/Middle East). A large percentage of men are conditioned to believe that "women" should be treated in a certain way, from opening a door to treating a women like a chattel. In fact, a lot of "conservative/traditional" societies have male dominance outside the home but women running things at home - perhaps not accpetable to our First world views butthat is where these scoities are and to rage over this is a tad pointless (particularly in a work of fiction).

Also as to the actions of the ladies (particularly Aes Sedai) in the books, it just reflects widely held historical view/myth/perception that women often manipulate men. The most classic example in literature is Lady Macbeth.


Finally, it all depends on what society you are from and from that point of view RJ has it pretty well spot. RJ is describing a quasi-medieval society that is consisten with a lot of the Fantasy we read.

Ho hum....that's enough for now as its 2:30am ...particularly as I'm getting ready to duck again.

Thanks again for the brilliant review.

S

ps Can you perhaps ask TOR why they insist on producing book artcovers that most of the fanbase despise?
Nastinka
13. alreadymadwhenLoialclosedtheWaygate
Warspoon @6
Well that would be the range, wouldn't it? I always figured that in addition to being tall the Aiel would be lean from being perpetually dehydrated. Being desert dwellers and all.

Digital_Eon @10
No they were not. No mention of it. Besides they wouldn't need to since Faile has her money and the rest leach off of Moiraine.
David Dudley
14. Warspoon
They were sharing rooms, don't know if they were getting it on. It is fairly heavily implied that Mat was "having a good time" at the stone, so its not unlikely that Perrin and Faile were enjoying themselves as well.
AJ MacPherson
15. Mackey62
Great Post as always.

I always thought that the Aiel were very tall, over six feet min., and just ripped with muscles and with long legs, since they like to walk and run alot, I think they may have mentioned that a time or thousand. This is a generalization b/c when we meet more Aiel, some are described as short for an aiel and big for an aiel(I think one of the cheifs is short and muscular and nobody mentioned it).
Antoni Ivanov
16. tonka
Leigh, there are moments that warrant a sniff definitely. Another sniff moments is when Nyneave send Lan away and go ahead of him to say that the Golden Crane Flies again in KOD. Or when Elayne picks up the feathers with which Rand tried to make her a flower (TDR) and then 5 books later there is a passage that say that she(Elayne) tuck them carefully in her saddlebags because they were her most precious possession.(Maybe that's rather an "awww" moment) And there are some more. Every time I read them I am touched by these moments. And I am a man though why should this matter *shrugs*
Ofer Nave
17. odigity
"Nynaeve has few friends? Gee, I wonder why."

This.
Nastinka
18. toryx
Digital_Eon @10.

Good question, in that I'm curious to see what people say.

Personally, I don't think they were sharing rooms or having any premarital sex. The scenes in the Stone where Perrin is arguing with Faile over Berelain give me the impression that she had somewhere to go after she left. Her own room and her own bed.

Not to mention that Perrin's concern about the Women's Circle marrying them if they hadn't already been betrothed and Rand's reactions to Aviendha describing Elayne and all that, I get the impression that both Rand and Perrin are pretty uptight as a result of their heritage. Mat seems to be more of a breakaway. But even then, I wonder if he actually had sex with any of his ladyfriends in the Stone or if it really was just a kiss and cuddle sort of deal. I'd not be surprised if his Shaido Aiel Maiden was the first to actually spend time in his bed.
Ofer Nave
19. odigity
Chivalry made some sense until 1834, when Samuel Colt invented the revolver, known then as the "Great Equalizer":

One of the first truly modern-style handguns, the Colt revolvers became known as "The Great Equalizer", because they could be loaded and fired by anyone, whereas most previous guns had required sufficient strength and dexterity. In theory, anyone who had a modern-style revolver was equal to anyone else, regardless of their relative physical abilities. This term has since come to be used for firearms in general, as awkward weapons like muzzle-loaded muskets became a thing of the past.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_Manufacturing_Company

After that, physical strength as an overwhelming advantage was mostly obsolete.

The other great equalizer was... automatic doors at supermarkets! Hurray for the end of gender warfare. :)
Ofer Nave
20. odigity
Hey, I got a question for Leigh. Everyone's loving the re-read, but how about you? Is this fun, work, or something in between?
David Dudley
21. Warspoon
@19 odigity

Whenever I see a woman about to enter a supermarket, I rush ahead to trigger the sensor first. Chivalry will never die!
Nastinka
22. Rebecca Starr
Ch 52
well said on all the Nynaeve/bravery stuff Leigh! And I just love seeing exactly how strong Nynaeve's will power is, that she can break through Compulsion set by one of the Forsaken - wowza!

Something I've always wondered: how would Moghedien have known, in the Age of Legends, who Birgitte really was, and that she was tied to the Horn, given that Birgitte was just living one of her many incarnations?

Ch 53
LMAO picturing Gaul fat.

Loial, my hero!!!

And yes, I totally want a Two Rivers wedding ceremony, red ribbons and the words spoken and all, when I tie the knot.
Blake Engholm
23. UncrownedKing
chp 52:
Don't really care. ooooooo a bowl.....mhhmmmm think of the baking possibilities. Yawn

chp 53

lovin it. Luc=tool. agreed. Shot to the Chest FTW!!
Love the marraige scene.
6'0 and 200 lbs is a normal weight for a well muscled man. Your in the right. Now if he was only 5'7 and 200lbs then you may be saying hes tubby.

Mondays should be goood
j p
24. sps49
Ha. Mat was getting busy left, right & center in Tear. It may have been his first, but he definitely was.

Rand and Perrin were each occupied with only one girl, who they took (are taking) seriously. I don't think they had the time nor inclination to go cattin' around.

Nyneave probably spent time with Lan, but they were the same as Rand and Perrin.

Egwene was giving table dances at a different inn in the Maule every night because she didn't want to be asking Moiraine for money.
Ofer Nave
25. odigity
Warspoon@21: Whenever I see a woman about to enter a supermarket, I rush ahead to trigger the sensor first. Chivalry will never die!

That killed me.

sps@49: Egwene was giving table dances at a different inn in the Maule every night because she didn't want to be asking Moiraine for money.

Can a Tairen get a table dance!
Maggie M
26. Eswana
A wonderful re-cap, per usual, Ms. Leigh.

I agree with you about Nynaeve. I've always loved her, even though many don't. I do like your comparison between Nynaeve and Mat- I never thought of that before, but you're right! Love both of them.

The "Price of a Departure" is one of my favorites. This is the Golden Age of Perrin and Faile, when they're still adorable and in TWOO WUV but haven't become annoying (or captured) yet.

And yes, I cry at weddings all the time. Even literary ones.
Dru O'Higgins
27. bellman
Mat's internal monologue in Tear hints that there is more to Maiden's Kiss than kissing. Group sex or one at a time? I'll leave that up to you.

180 lbs for Gaul sounds about right. Remember that the Aiel are all marathon runners. Makes me wonder why the Aiel women always seem to have breasts.
j p
28. sps49
odigity @19-

I disagree; even 175 years after the Colt, physical size and strength still matter with confidence and intimidation. I'm reasonably big and rarely feel unsafe; conversely female friends will feel safe (safer?) with me. Using a pistol is an excessive response to most real world issues.

I don't know if Israelis act differently, but even now one factor in joining the US military is to engage foes far from our loved ones, helping keep them out of the line of fire.
j p
29. sps49
odigity and Warspoon-

I actually set off the automatic doors at the local Target for my gf, just because it was funny. She just looked at me like I was a dork.

She does that a lot.
David Dudley
30. Warspoon
@27 bellman

The little bit extra you get with Maiden's Kiss is a close shave if you kiss poorly.
David Dudley
31. Warspoon
@ sps49

You are my hero. That should probably offend you =p
Antoni Ivanov
32. tonka
Oh yeah, I forgot something


.....
Clearly, the solution is to get married. And then recruit your husband an army. I APPROVE.


chucklesgigglesrofllolol
Dru O'Higgins
33. bellman
@30 Warspoon

Mat mentions the kissing and that he got nicked less than he did shaving. Then he thinks that if they want to know more they could ask to play the game themselves, and that he didn't get to his bed until daybreak. Suggests to me more than kissing. Page 66 in my pb copy.
Chris Maurer
34. grayfox
speaking of weights of characters...what would anyone's guess be of height/weight of RPM? Here's mine... Perhaps this is already out there somewhere.

Rand - 6'2", 210 lbs
Perrin - 6'0", 250 lbs
Mat - 5'11", 170 lbs

and just for fun
Bela - 6'0", 1000 lbs
Nastinka
35. trekkiechick
Great job once again, Leigh! What a wonderful way to waste time when I'm supposed to be working.

I will admit without shame that I get teary eyed every time I read The Price of a Departure. It's just so sweet. My favorite scene with Perrin and Faile, hands down. I love the whole Battle for the Two Rivers in this book, and these last few chapters are just the best.

And Rebecca Starr @22, I didn't have the red ribbons, but I did use the wedding vows.
Captain Hammer
36. Randalator
Ah, Duopotamia...

Good ol' times when Faile had her stretch of being Falcon McAwesomecakes. How I miss that...

Why, oh why did she have to turn into Xanthippe in Cairhien?


Perrin does make the typical mistake here of assuming his enemy is dead without seeing the body, which as we all know is a gross violation of the Narrative Causality Code, which clearly states that if a character assumes an effect without witnessing it, the Irony Subclause practically demands that it turn out not to be so.

Thank god RJ broke that contractual obligation by turning Sammael into roadkill offscreen.

What? You don't believe that, y'all? But RJ said so. Sammael is toast. He's passed on! This Forsaken is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! He's pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile! THIS IS AN EX-SAMMAEL!

*whack*

Sorry, sometimes I seem to channel John Cleese. Won't happen again.


bellman @27

180 lbs for Gaul sounds about right. Remember that the Aiel are all marathon runners. Makes me wonder why the Aiel women always seem to have breasts.

Because it looks good.
John Fitzingo
37. Xandar01
Ok, that wedding scene is great! (I feel like the emotional mob dude from Analyze This.) RJ made sure that you were fully invested in each character before that stunning scene. Love how we hear what is going through Perrin's head. I do wonder what was going through Faile's head? Any guesses?

Oh, 200lb for a muscular 6' man is about right. I am betting that is only 1/3 of Loail's weight though. Hmm that would be kinda like me running with a 50lb pack back in prime condition while in the Marines... Yuk. I hated the 25 mile hikes, can't imagine running three days. I have a new appreciation for Loial now.
Jason Deshaies
38. darxbane
Gaul is actually taller than Rand (who is 6'5"), and if he is as well-built as many of the Aiel describe, he is closer to 250 pounds. That's quite a load, even for a 10 foot tall Ogier. Any guesses on how much he must weigh?
Dru O'Higgins
39. bellman
randalator @36

It looks good, and when you have breasts you get to cross your arms beneath them.
F Shelley
40. FSS
As to Gaul's appearance, why not just look at the cover art of Knife of Dreams? That him on the cover...I guess...
Nastinka
41. toryx
bellman @33

Well sure there was more than kissing, but there's so many possibilities between kissing and sex. For all we know, even Mat might not be shocked by a little earlobe nibblin' or something like that.

grayfox @34

No way. I'd never have thought everyone was that tall, particularly considering how much is made of Rand's height in the Two Rivers. I always thought Perrin was a little shorter than Mat, but wider in build. Of course, I could be wrong about that.

My reckoning would be,

Rand 6'1" or 6'2", Perrin 5'8, Mat 5'9. Moiraine would be about 5'2".

I'm not even going to guess the weight.
James Jones
42. jamesedjones
There she goes folks. Let's all give a big hand to "B****y Nyneave"! And now, taking her place, please welcome "Awesomely B****y Nyneave"! Yay! Gotta love her revelation about Moghedian, and her curiosity about why everyone keeps telling her to be careful. Pure RJ brilliance! And, maybe, some Harriet brilliance, too.

Chapt 53 really sets the tone for Perrin and Faile, and earns a huge balance of forgiveness for the fan base emo debt they manage to acrue over the latest 3 books in the series. I mean, if Davram and his wife could read that chapter...
Captain Hammer
43. Randalator
FSS said "cover". Teehee...! *waits for rants on TGS cover art*

I'm glad I don't have to worry about the cover art. The british Orbit editions I'm buying all look like this.
Blake Engholm
44. UncrownedKing
@43 Thats a pretty sweet cover actually

Rand 6'4 ish 200 or so pounds
Perrin 5'11 but around 225-230 (250 was too much, he's not fat, and he's not on HGH)
Mat prob 5'11 and around 180 ish.

Mo is not 5'2 id say 5'4 or 5'6.

And did someone just tell us to consult the cover art to see what char look like? (QuickGetHisAddress) Perrin has a red beard in that one. RED!?!?!? come the f--- on man.

F'n A Cotton, F'n A
Luke M
45. lmelior
Re: height v. weight
For comparison, Heisman Trophy winning running back Reggie Bush is 6'0", 205 lbs. And he looks like this. He has about negative ten percent body fat I think.

If he's 6'5" as another person claims, you can easily tack on 50 lbs, or maybe even 100 lbs. He's a Stone Dog, which I thought were bulkier than others anyway. For this comparison, see Hulk Hogan, who is/was 6'4" 300 lbs.
j p
46. sps49
Warspoon @31- nah. :)

FSS @40- Heretic!
James Jones
47. jamesedjones
Um, the World of RJ's Wheel of Time defined a pace as 3 feet, or a yard; and a span as 2 paces. Both Rand and Gawyn have been described as well over a span (I believe Rand's was actually estimated in paces). The WOT role playing game puts Rand at 6'6", Perrin at 6'4", and Mat at 5'11".

Edit: Please see 52 Hoping for correction.
Tracy Long
48. BookFairy
Who’s afraid of the big bad compulsion? Not Nynaeve.

Awesome! Loial Rocks. Am I the only one to notices that every time Loial is mentioned he is doing something ridiculously brave?

Yes, people do cry at weddings, sniffle, sniffle…….dabs at eyes.
O.K. We know people are coming (I caught that even on my very first reading).
So who didn’t expect Faile to do exactly what she did. Anything else would have been totally out of character for her. Not sneaky really really cool. How can people still hate her? Sigh.

I can’t wait. This is one of my favorite parts of WOT and I am so enjoying the re-read.
Great job.
Nastinka
49. toryx
I'm shocked.

I had no idea that everyone was written as that tall. In all the years I've been reading the books, and all the times I met RJ...if I'd guessed Rand was considered to be 6'6", I'd have asked RJ for confirmation myself. Man, I wish I'd paid more attention to the RPG.
James Jones
50. jamesedjones
49 Toryx

I was never shocked by Rand's height, but Perrin's definitely blew me away. The thing is, even Mat is considered 'above average' in the Two Rivers. Most folks outside of the Aiel, the Andor Royal family, and Lord Barthanes are NOT that tall.

Edit: If anyone has a reference for Perrin from the books, please contribute. It's not like Wizards of the Coast have never been wrong.
Amar Ramraj
51. aiel1219
@42.jamesedjones
Caaaareful abt them ther B****y comments. I recently saw the Jordancon videos and Harriet mentioned that RJ said his female characters were all based on her!!! He may decide to smite u down in yer dreams dude!!! He is,was always will be the creator u know!!! Be careful yo!

LOL!!!
Michael Catapano
52. hoping
From enc-wot
Rand is 6-5 to 6-6 and 235
Perrin is 6-1 to 6-2 and 235-240
Mat is 5-11 to 6-0 and 180
Gaul is taller than Rand but no weight given
An impressive feat for loial
James Jones
53. jamesedjones
51 Aiel

Dude, Bouncy. What were you thinking? lol
Nastinka
55. Pale-Aiel
Randalater@36

That was so funny. I love how you compared the Norwiegan Blue parrot to Samuel. Unfortunately ever since I read that quote I have been humming I am a lumberjack...." lol
Bret Scott
56. BlacksmithButNotEmo
Excellent plot movement in both of these chapters...I treasure this, because the draggin' times are a comin'. It got a little dusty in here when we got to the marriage vow, funny how that happens.

I seriously need to know what sort of total blackmail Sweet had going on RJ to be the cover artist of the whole f'ing series. Great Googly Moogly, pretty much all of the covers have extreme suck factor; the latest the most. Aren't your skills supposed to improve over time?

Leigh, fine work as always. Hope your weekend rocks!
Nastinka
57. Snuboi
Nynave is one of my favorite characters and I love chapter 52. I don't know why I love all of her sassyness but I do. And I totally agree that one of the best things about her is her inability to see in herself what everyone else does. I have had more LOL moments reading about her than anyone else in the series. I am probably the only person who is excited about the upcoming menagerie trip and all the Nynaeveyness that it entails.
F Shelley
58. FSS
lol - and for Rand's appearence, simply watch it change from cover to cover to cover...
AJ MacPherson
59. Mackey62
Just b/c I seem to designated Loial Love ..err.. Deflater. (Ducks)

Loial is about 10 feet tall, weighing between 600 to 1000 lbs (big estimate, guessing more around 800, but that could be me). He has walked the modern world for the last 5?? years with a couple hundred pounds of books with him. While it is immpressive, it is still someone carrying someone who is anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 his weight. It is not like Faile carrying Perrin for 3 days. (Ducks again)

But it is still impressive.
Amar Ramraj
60. aiel1219
about the weight thingy... when I was abt 18 or 19 I was 6'3" 200-205lbs and this was when I did triathlons. So if Gaul is taller than Rand by an inch, he could possibly weigh around 250.

And sum1 mentioned Aiel r supposed to be Marathon runners n asked y the women are often described as big breasted (putting it bluntly)... I know atleast 6 women who would run u and most of us here into the ground and happen to be quite well developed in the chest area (but then again mb I just remember them alot better than I do others *ducks all glares, sniffs, throwing knives, revolver bullets etc.)

@53 jamesedjones
suuuuurrrrrre
LOL!!!
Nastinka
61. alreadymadwhenRandgotANOTHERmakeover
hoping @52
My estimates are close, maybe minus 10-20 pounds for Rand and plus 10-20 for Perrin.

Mackey @62
Carrying something 1/4 to 1/2 of your weight is easier said than done, but still easier than you might think. It's all about proper positioning. Ask firemen, they do it all the time.

My ACoS looked like this. IMHO it's the best one. :)
David Dudley
62. Warspoon
I wonder if they will ever do an Easton Press style edition of the books.
F Shelley
63. FSS
@61 - that's just cheating!

Your Rand show go backward and forward in time, height, weight, facial expression, etc like everyone else.
Amar Ramraj
64. aiel1219
Ohhh I just realised the whole weight thing was pointed at Loial's awesomeness!!! Hold up!!! Running from a few hundred to a few thousand evil shadow spawn trying to kill u (even if they are just about yer size)... would u really keep on carrying sum dude on yer back who's gotta be slowin u down? FOR 3 FREAKIN DAYS???
(why does the image of Forest runnin out wid lieutenant Dan keep poppin into my head?)
Alice Arneson
65. Wetlandernw
For a little more info, check this:
How tall is everyone?

So much to love in these chapters. Tears and all.
Alice Arneson
66. Wetlandernw
Oh, and Japanese scotch??? You've got to be kidding me. Isn't that heresy or something?
Nastinka
67. alreadymadwhenCallandormagnifiedthetaint
FSS @63
BWAHAHAHAHAHA

aiel1219 @64
Run Loial, run!
AJ MacPherson
68. Mackey62
Ok, I am not saying Loial is the DO or anything bad about him. Just saying every character has "headdesk" moments when they are on screen enough. But that is what makes the characters great. B/c even if they are annoying, it appears to be true to the character/person. It characteristics are not forced down your throat. But everyone knows that person who is "Bouncy" and always has to be in charge, even when they shouldn't be. Or the person has a nose so high in the air. Makes it more real.

IMO, that is why these characters get such a nasty reaction, b/c they remind us of someone we don't like or hurt us, so it gets hard get past that initial reaction to the character to see that they are deeper than what we thought. Yes the romances could be done a better, yes there are other flaws, nothing is perfect, but the characters, "headdesk" moments and all. So back to the point, Loial is awesome, but the whole "My mommy is going to make me go home."

headdesk, headdesk, headdesk.
Leigh Butler
69. leighdb
ogdity @ 20:

Hey, I got a question for Leigh. Everyone's loving the re-read, but how about you? Is this fun, work, or something in between?

Yes.
Sub Woofer
70. subwoofer
@61 alreadymad... 12 Weeks on Jenny Craig can do the same for anyone as far as weight flux.
As for running with a fat bastard. Fireman may do it, but for very short distances... and nobody is shooting at them with arrows or trying to stick pointy things in them. At least, not for 3 days straight. Full combat gear for me was 120lbs and that was arranged on a pack system. It was not the dead/awkward weight of a body... Loial is just cool...
Nastinka
71. jlyman
@SparrowHawk 12

Would that not be *deskhead* if it were thrown at said appendage?

Leigh, you are not alone on the whole lump in throat/leaking eyes at the wedding. This part and just the other night reading Rand's final words to Ingtar always make me hold the book higher so no one can see the sad expression on my face.
Roger Powell
72. forkroot
grayfox@34
Narg - 6'4", 325lbs (Considered a runt by trolloc standards)

bellman @27
I agree with 180lbs, but whatever Gaul weighs, this chapter reminds us that Loial is really so much more bad-ass than that friendly ink-stained lummox seems to be in the quieter moments.
Nastinka
73. Digital_Eon
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone (from way back at the beginning of the re-read - you post quickly!).

As for Maidens, I don't think they're supposed to be that well-endowed, are they? I posted this (late) in the last discussion thread, but in TFoH, Kadere thinks that Aviendha is "full-breasted compared to most of the Maidens" - implying that they really don't have all that much going on up there. Makes sense, considering their career choice.

Oh, and yes, Loial is totally badass and awesome. You really do have to remember things like what he did in the Stone of Tear, though, because his onscreen behaviour definitely doesn't always point to this incredibleness he shows off-screen. Maybe that was why we don't actually see him do it - knowing it happened after the fact makes it dramatic in a different sense.
Nastinka
74. Digital_Eon
I also feel the need to mention that the quote stood out to me because I recently re-read that part, not because of any particular interest in Aviendha's breast size.

I know how people think here.
Nastinka
75. Sparrowhawk
@71 jlyman

I had the feeling she (perhaps we should call her the "chosen one" or the "Oracle") was going to grab the back of my head and repeatedly headdesk me ......I may well deserve it but I had no intention of waiting for it to happen.

Digital_Eon @74 yes you go ahead and tell yourself that, we believe you; honestly; for real; truly.... ;)
Roger Powell
76. forkroot
Digital_Eon@73
Good point about Loial's bad-assedness being mostly off-screen. It's not very far off-screen at Dumai's Wells though. Still, it took me a long time (in the first read) to come around to the fact that Ogiers were awesome in battle.

Once the Ogier Gardeners from the Deathwatch Guards showed up - I got the idea in a hurry.

Err, um ... Nice ears you have there sir. I'll be on my way now.
Nastinka
77. WiseOne
I don't know about you guys, but Chiad's jibe to Gaul about taking him gai’shain cracks me up every time. Ah, ji'e'toh...
Nastinka
78. SusanB
Wetlandernw - Thanks for the height link. Its always good to have false impressions corrected.

I didn't expect Avi to be so short, I thought she would be 6 feet. I also thought Matt was 6 feet & I thought Egwene was taller than Nyn. As for Perrin's height & weight I was right on the money...Go Me! At least I got one right!

I love these Chapters & am very much looking forward to the next few chapters. Thanks for doing a great job Leigh!

And as for tearing up...I was tearing at the "we're coming" line. I don't think I realized the significance of this line the first time around, but know what happens next just makes it sooo awesome.
Richard Fife
79. R.Fife
Nothing really to add on chapters, but on the cover:

Many fans made angry noises at JordanCon over the coverart, and here is what Team Jordan had to say:

Harriet actually works very closely with Mr. Sweet on the cover art, often times sending the sketches back with comments over small details, etc. She retains full veto power on the cover, it seems.

Additionally, Tom Doherty said that they have decided to stay with Mr. Sweet for the duration of the books for consistancy sake. Once all 14 books are out and have Sweet Covers, there could well be new cover art commissioned for collector's editions and book-sets. But, as always, nothing is set in stone. After all, WoT was supposed to be a trilogy.
Jim Adams
80. dubjazz
WiseOne @ 77
Yes I like the on going thing between these two whose clans are feuding. When Gaul comes back wounded with Loial and she starts to tend him and he protests, doesn't she say something about touching him when fully armed and leaving it up to him to decide where his honour lies?
Ji'e'toh is a bit like the Native American thingy of counting coup on someone.
sandi vogel
81. sinfulcashew
As to the height thing.....
Every time I got to a different part of the story, some one would be 'taller' than someone else. Then later they would be 'shorter' than someone and I got to where in my imagination, their tallness or shortness, was jumping around.
I just gave up trying to imagine what they looked like in comparison to others.
T C
82. Freelancer
Terrific post, Leigh. As if that's news.

Does it seem to anyone else that a number of folks who earlier claimed to hate the Tanchico plot arc are commenting how much they like Nynaeve, or Egeanin, or the action with the BA/Moggy/etc? I must be mistaken.

And not a word about Nynaeve's chainmail dress at the Stone in T'a'R. C'mon, that's funny!

Something that happens here that is another of Jordan's running themes of interpersonal behavior. Nynaeve tries to train the WOs about how to deal with Egwene being all headstrong and gottalearnitallNOW, and they respond like she's all teacher's pet and stuff. The formula is something like, "When it's just us, you are a mindless, willful, inattentive fool who hasn't got a clue how to do anything right. But if someone else tries to say any of that about you, I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that they could be so harsh about such a pleasant, thoughtful, respectful and dedicated student."

Someone asked why Moghedien would recognize Birgitte. But she answered that herself saying that she and Gaidal Cain fought at LTTs side. Oh, she also confirms that it was Asmodean at Rhuidean in T'a'R on Nynaeve's previous trip.


RE: The Precepts

I would imagine that over the Ages, those who are Tied to the Wheel have learned to their own dismay not to deal with the living, and have passed these lessons, as rules, to newcomers.


RE: Women's Circle

Here we have yet another example of a repeating theme. The ladies are starving themselves to make sure the men can keep their strength up, and still they call their husbands fools.

“I am Perrin Goldeneyes,” he said reluctantly.
Nicely done by RJ here. Perrin can't waste time telling a dying messenger not to call him that, and by calling himself Goldeneyes where others can hear it, well, he's stuck with it for sure.

Loial. Our beloved Ogier is the Sam Gamgee of this saga. Humble, thoughtful, willing to do anything to help "the hero", even at cost to himself. Never thinks himself anything special, certainly not brave. (After watching "Return of the King", I asked my kids who was the hero of the LoTR story. I was very pleased to hear them both say that the real hero was Samwise) Loial would try to claim that Gaul did everything important, if he hadn't just carried him, while running for his life for three whole days.

Luc. Can't help reminding himself of his past, and offering hints to others that he thinks go unnoticed. Something not commented on was the ravens searcing for Perrin in T'a'R. Had Perrin and Egwene only discussed their mutual skill in the dreamworld, he might have known he could conjure up eagles to take out Slayer's ravens. It is clear from the frenzy the birds go into when Perrin shoots him, that Slayer is operating the ravens here. I wonder if they too should have faded away when Slayer leaves T'a'R.

The continuing drama of Perrin/Faile. I cannot share Leigh's ambivalence in the scene where Perrin sends Faile to Caemlyn. All that garbage about not letting her make choices is just that. Perrin is resigned to the situation, that the village is about to be clobbered, with very little prospect for anyone surviving. So he makes a choice, to send his lady love to safety, which overrides the choice her recent history suggests she'd make, to stay and die to prove she's as tough as anyone who pees standing up. This is the Right Thing to Do, period.

Perrin doesn't know that she sees through his scheme. But then, Loial sees through it, the Aes Sedai see through it, heck, everyone in town sees through it, and they admire him for it! It's hilarious that Loial doesn't realize that Perrin is unaware that everyone knows what he's up to (ya follow?), and thinks his "She should fly free" comment just a confirmation of Perrin's intentions that everyone can see. And here's Perrin, thinking Loial is going to clue everyone in.


Classic blunders. Third Vizzini reference this week. Inconceivable!


Digital_Eon@10

Perrin and Faile most certainly did not share rooms in the Stone. Also, given that this is fiction, if it isn't said or infered to have happened, it didn't happen. I don't get why people have to arrange sexual trysts for characters that simply don't occur. There's other things to read or watch if that's your thing, it disturbs me to think of it being amended to an author's work. All of our heroes "grow up" in this regard during this story, can't that be enough?


odigity@19

Chivalry makes no sense today? What a sad thought.


Randalator@36

You left out "bleeding demised". And that's the last time I parrot one of your remarks. It could be accused of being spam (spam, spam, spam...)


RE: Heights and weights

I've never looked at the WOT Encyclopaedia, but I always figured Rand for 6'5", around 225 (not imprinting here, nope, not at all). We know that Lan is of a height with Rand, though more muscular. Perrin is half a head shorter than Rand, so around 6'1" or 6'2", but with his muscle density could easily be 240-250. Mat is the shortest of the three, while still taller than average for T2R, so about 6' even, say 180, as he's portrayed quite slender.

UncrownedKing@44

No, in fact, that's not a Sweet cover at all, that's the point! ::ducks::


alreadynotquitealmosttotallysometimes@61

In certain cities I know of, one must carry their own bodyweight for 50yds as part of a physical agility test to even qualify for an interview as a firefighter. But we're talking about three entire days, while running for your life. Nobody does that all the time.

aiel1219@64

This is a first. I've never in my internet life typed these letters before, but for your Forrest Gump image, LOL. Well played.

Wetlandernw@65

Thank you for the link. I do remember reading that in the FAQ now, but I had some problems with it. In TEotW, our first look at Egwene says she's "of a height" with Nynaeve. I also seem to remember Aviendha being identified as almost eye-to-eye with Mat, and Elayne being closer to Rand's height than a full foot shorter.

dubjazz@80

ji'e'toh is precisely like the native American honor system in the counting coup aspect, but more fully like the Japanese Bushido code, as Leigh pointed out recently. Jordan at his best, weaving multiple cultural threads into something like this.
Nastinka
83. drothgery
Annnyway. Perrin does make the typical mistake here of assuming his enemy is dead without seeing the body, which as we all know is a gross violation of the Narrative Causality Code, which clearly states that if a character assumes an effect without witnessing it, the Irony Subclause practically demands that it turn out not to be so.


This bothers me a lot more when characters who should be aware of this principle violate it. Eg, after Sylar's 3rd or 4th survival of a near-death experience on Heroes, you'd think someone wanting him dead would have cut off his head, burned the body, and scattered the ashes. And we know Hiro, at least, is quite familiar with genre conventions.
Ofer Nave
84. odigity
The fact that I hate the covers doesn't mean I don't get why TOR chooses them. They have a very distinctive look that grabs your eye. If you don't already know from personal experience, you'd be amazed how many people got into WoT by walking down the aisle and having EotW just jump out at them.

Doesn't mean I have to like it. :) Speaking of which, how not exciting is the KoD cover? I keep expecting to find the folks on the front taking a nap when I glance over, or maybe glancing at their watches.
Nastinka
85. Digital_Eon
Freelancer @82:

I wasn't trying to do that at all! I actually thought someone, somewhere, had mentioned the room-sharing. Haven't we all had these experiences once or twice, only to have our misconceptions shattered in a most embarrassing way from knowledgeable others on the internet? :P
Nastinka
86. Belmont
@82: Re: the precepts. I agree, I think there must be a tradition of not "getting involved in the current world" while hanging out in the Dream World while waiting for your next life. Perhaps it's like "balefire" - there have been bad consequences from overusage but it continues to be used at various times anyway. AFAIK, Birgitte is the only one tied to the Horn that violates the precepts. Except for her and Cain I don't think any other Horners are encountered there.

I enjoy the uncomplication and ease of Perrin and Faile's wedding ceremony. It seems to me to refer
to the idea that being married is more like a general announcement to the public that they're setting up housekeeping together. Anyone have any objections? Women's Circle? Ok, it's a done deal.

Finally, I think the relationship between Gaul, Chiad and Bain is yet another example of the Aiel man having 2 wives. Doesn't Gaul at some point state that he'd be happy to marry Bain but wasn't thrilled also have Chiad as a wife? IIRC, if he married Bain he'd have to marry Chiad as well to satisfy Chiad. (I may well have got the names mixed up or it's some other triad of Aiel that we read about).

Leigh, thanks for your continued excellent work. Have a nice weekend.
Lannis .
87. Lannis
Wondering... any word on why Luc suddenly bursts through the village after he's shot? I mean, other than to give Perrin the giant clue-by-four, that is... was Luc just doing his usual Myrdraal/Trolloc heads-in-a-bag delivery drop? Seems awful convenient, to me...

Perrin & Faile's wedding... I think I was about 13 when tSR was published, and I was all bubbles, love and rainbows for this chapter. It thrilled me. On rereads I still enjoy it, but I see more of the desperate melancholy underlying it all... the romance bleeds true, but it's that heartbreaking happiness.

Hrm... always pictured Mat as taller than Perrin...

Digital_Eon @ 74... "I know how people think here." BAHAHAHAHahahhaha!

Thanks, Leigh! :)
Nastinka
88. Tailspinner
@ 36

Randalator...you just quoted Monty Python, you are now forever my favourite poster

and now for something completely different....

IMHO RJ write love well, being in the just married lovey dovey stage of life that these characters are in, I can definitely relate. The wedding scene absolutely mad me tear up the first time I read it.

I think I know people who can relate to Nyneave. There is a very young professor at my school, she doesn't power trip, but she definitely has to work very hard to get people to take her seriously, and to get us grad students not to treat her as a friend. I was very sad to see her get treated so badly by women in the later books *ahem* Cadsuane *ahem*
Alex Johns
89. almuric
250 lbs for Gaul seems right, although it might be a little high. Since Aiel run everywhere, I figure they were all somewhat thinly built, like Maasai. So maybe 220. As far as Loial being able to carry someone weighing 1/3 what he does. That'd be like me carrying a 65 pound pack. Doable, but not for 3 days. But you have to remember that humans aren't strong for their relative size. Chimpanzees, although smaller than people, are many times stronger. Neanderthals were much stronger, perhaps 10 times as strong as modern people. Jordan's Ogiers are his replacements for fantasy Ogres and Giants who are always considered very strong. Even though he's around 3 times the weight of an adult human male, he probably has 10 times the strength. But I don't want to take away from Loial's awesomeness. He's all that and more.

Off-topic: I saw the new Star Trek movie today. No spoilers, but I'm guessing James T. Kirk is ta'veren. Spock may be too.
Sub Woofer
90. subwoofer
Ohhh and I loved the brief exchange with Chiad and Gaul and him making light of his wounds and her making 'veiled' threats about taking him gai’shain- thus settling him down... one of the better moments.
Chris Hall
91. bookwormchris
I guess we should remember that Loial is only about the boys ages, perhaps younger even, for Ogier. Still he is pretty darn awesome, although I don't like that he gets used all the time. Let him write his book! Still, he plays key roles all over the place. Personally I would rather face Trollocs than an angry Ogier or three. (Loial's first kill, anyone?)
Nastinka
92. ZamIt
I forgot that Nynaeve figured out about the compulsion. Good for her. She annoys the boys (and girls) sometimes, but her heart is in the right place. An early scene with Nynaeve when she told Rand she couldn't heal Tam really sticks out to me. She cares, but has responsibility and has to do the right thing. Also, I forgot about the part where she wished she had more friends. I guess that makes sense given her personality and her lack of peers. Well, she gets to be Aes Sedai and marry a king, plus live a life that'll make her a legend - cleansing saiden, healing stilling.
Faile is also good here, but that goes downhill fast. I wonder if she has an important role (Broken Crown) to play in the last book(s)? If she has some awesome part to play like she had in this book, who get the credit? Jordan for setting up the plot or Sanderson for making her likable again? It may be a moot point; I don't know if Faile can ever be likable again.
Maiden's Kiss - Who kisses what? That's all I'm saying.
Amar Ramraj
93. aiel1219
@91 bookwormchris
Loial's 1st kill was the night he an Rand encountered the Trollocs in Cairhien after they went to meet Thom. (In tGH) just before their little mishap in the Illuminators guildhouse.
Nastinka
94. Roxinos
Hmm...

Does it not bother you in the slightest that Elayne and Nynaeve both stay in while Thom, Juilin, and Domon all risk themselves gathering information? Doesn't that break your Equality Or Headdesk clause?
Kevin Morgan
95. DrMorganstien
Nynaeve and the no friends thing was very poignant. It also is a small bit of proof to how Sanderson is clearly an RJ fan, since Sarene in Elantris is very similar to Nyn in that respect.

@89 almuric
Off-topic: I saw the new Star Trek movie today. No spoilers, but I'm guessing James T. Kirk is ta'veren. Spock may be too.
THAT MOVIE WAS AMAZING!
I saw it last Friday and am going to see it in an IMAX theater this weekend.

@83 drothgery
Eg, after Sylar's 3rd or 4th survival of a near-death experience on Heroes, you'd think someone wanting him dead would have cut off his head, burned the body, and scattered the ashes. And we know Hiro, at least, is quite familiar with genre conventions.

all I can say without spoiling for anyone is: Have you seen the end of this season? it was sweeeeet!

@22 Rebecca Starr
@35 trekkiechick
I didn't have the red ribbons, but I did use the wedding vows.
I hope I meet a woman with that much personality, good for you.

ok, now time to get down and dirty:

@92 ZamIt
Maiden's Kiss - Who kisses what? That's all I'm saying.
I always assumed I would never wanna play this game, but you've made me reconsider.

@36 Randalator
because it looks good
couldn't have put it better myself

@74 Digital_Eon
I am particularly interested in Avi's size, it seems like a more interesting discussion than height and weight.

wow, we are a bunch of perverts, and I'm ok with that

EDIT: I just re-read after posting, and I noticed that I said absolutely nothing worth saying, apologies.
Sub Woofer
96. subwoofer
Dr. Morg... I am reading before posting and it is just fodder... but we are not posting for the NEMJ so meh, not trying to cure cancer.

First things first... aiel women's, er... upper torso. I seem to remember somewhere in TGH when we get our second exposure to aiel when they pop out of the bushes to find HWCWtD you could not tell the genders apart. For the most part, unless genetically endowed, woman's chest size fluxes with their weight, and approaching babies. Look at any elite female athlete and you would be hard pressed to find any of them full figured. Check the Olympics... heck, check any female track team. Ladies, feel free to chime in here and prove me wrong... (*ducks*)

As far as running and weight. That is really hard to say. When I was in the army, I'd be running like a Jamaican in a hurricane and it was very hard to put on weight. We'd go on maneuvers or when we were in the field for a week to 10 days and I'd drop 10lbs easy. Getting stationed overseas, I and most of my unit were all skin and wire muscles when we got back. My gear topped out at 120lbs I was 165lbs on a good day. Why we were lean and mean. Look at Bruce (Lee), he looked like hot sh*t but he was just a buck forty soaking wet. But he was tuned. Weight is deceptive.

And it is really hard to run any distance with serious muscle mass. You just can't breath enough to take in the oxygen to fuel all that muscle. You'd be anaerobic within the first five minutes. Unless you were genetically gifted once again with high capacity lungs that were really efficient. And you could deal with the lactic acid. Any runner who has speed just isn't going to be toting much muscle mass. Keeping pace with a horse at 200lbs is a different world than keeping pace with a horse at 150lbs....
edit- am referring to Aiel here, not Loial, he's in his own class of giant, eared, fluffy goodness... like George.

Let us not also forget the staggering amount of calories a person would have to take in on a daily basis to keep up the weight. I believe the Aiel Waste is a desert. Not conducive to abundance of food or water retention.

But its a series of books so I am not sure that RJ was focused too much on physiology and human biology when making these characters. Just that they were big and deadly and could run. Like Arnold, if he was real.
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
Sub Woofer
97. subwoofer
As far as Perrin's wedding. Yup, I'm a sap too. But my excuse is that I just got married. And, much like Faile, my wife has selective listening skills even if I am thinking in her best interests. It may be a gender thing. I dunno.(*ducks, dives, rolls*) Honestly, stop throwing the good china! Ikea will do.
T C
98. Freelancer
Digital_Eon@85

Forgive me. I had not meant my comments to imply I accused you of the behavior to which I referred. I know that you were asking an honest question out of curiosity. This is definitely a case of if the shoe fits, and it doesn't fit you that I've noticed, so put that shoehorn down, thanks.

Zami@92

If you have read any of the blog postings or other releases by Brandon Sanderson regarding WoT, you'll find he won't want to take very much credit for finishing the series. It's his job to put the final parts of the story in publishable form, and fill in areas that weren't fully fleshed out by RJ, but he has regularly said that the story isn't his, the outline is quite thorough, and how the scenes play out was already mostly set in place.

Forgive the very poor analogy, but it's like giving an extremely good painter an 80% complete Mona Lisa, and the remainder has a paint-by-number canvas. Study how DaVinci mixed, applied and layered his colors, and using his own skill and artistry, fill in the unfinished areas such that they not only mesh properly with the original work, but complete the whole with no gaps, no clashing edges, and the finished work is clearly one piece.

If Brandon accomplishes that, he will deserve a tremendous amount of credit. After reading Elantris, the Mistborn trilogy, and Warbreaker online (can't wait till it releases!), there is no doubt in my mind that Brandon is the man to do exactly that.
T C
99. Freelancer
Subwoofer@97

Just got married, and she's already throwing things at you? Is that some kind of record? The only thing my wife throws at me is, well, her.

On that topic, I have a question for folks that have been married awhile. Is there a time frame at which you can no longer say you're newleyweds?

I sure feel like we are, but then, it's only been twenty-five years. I'm holding out for when all my kids graduate college. Then we can stop having fun and settle down.

Not.
Chris Greenland
100. greenland
I had to go back and read chapter 52 after Leigh pointed out Nynaeve's relative friendlessness. I never picked up on this, and it cuts the core of one of the aspects of The Wheel of Time that I find most frustrating.

Nynaeve revealing that she knows she doesn't make a lot of friends, and in fact could count all the friends she's probably ever had on one hand, is a fantastic character trait. That's a character-motivated vulnerability that a lot of readers can sympathize with, and drama that can be played with in myriad of different combinations, in plot situations both small and large scale.

In addition, it serves as a great mirror to Rand's own hero's journey. Their motivations are different, he's spurred on by external stimuli (it's your fate, Rand!) while her motivation is mostly internal (a powerful sense of fairness and responsibility), but their growth is parallel.

I get frustrated, though, because even though Jordan knows his character this well, he never really plays with Nynaeve's vulnerabilities. What would happen if her famed arrogance caused someone innocent to get hurt? If she actually failed at something important, but, in the process of masking her hurt, was too prideful to admit it? (I could easily imagine Nynaeve as someone who causes a car wreck but blames the other driver.)

What if that wounded pride ended up driving away what few friends she had? Right when she needs them most? If she fell from grace - went through a long dark teatime of the soul - and had to find the inner strength to keep trying? Can you imagine how much more awesome the cleansing of saidin would have been if it also been a redemption for Nynaeve?

It would have given Lan something to do in the story, too. He'd be forced to emotionally defend his wife from their friends, showing us an interesting new side of him. It would also allow the characters to question and explore their love for each other, giving us insight on a romance that's been pretty much assumed from book one. Coming through the other side of such an arc would have made Lan's send-off in Knife Of Dreams even more potent.

Picking up on Nynaeve's admission in chapter 52 makes this all the more frustrating to me, as it points out that the potential for this kind of personal conflict has always been in the series, just never utilized.
James Jones
101. jamesedjones
100 Greenland

I gotta admit, I'm actually glad he didn't explore this sort of stuff. Can you imagine how much longer the series would have been?!
Antoni Ivanov
102. tonka
Let's not forget that Loial is not a human . he once said he can outrun a horse. I guess he didn't run non-stop, he was hiding, skulking, trying to bypass trollocs,etc.
Sub Woofer
103. subwoofer
Freelancer@98. um... sounds suspiciously like you have a fledgling career in art forgery. Was always fond of Monet myself, but your analogy is accurate at how I feel BS would finish RJ's work. BS is working with RJ's assistants and I am fairly sure there is a ton of notes and drafts.

On marriage, I got nuthin'. I wait till my wife tells me we're not newlyweds, then that's what I go along with. meh.

Nynaeve, in future chapters, does show some guilt and remorse for how she treats people. The whole Brigette story arc outlines the power of Ny's guilt and stubbornness of how much guilt she has. After Ny goes after MO and Brigette intervenes and gets hurt, Ny spends quite a few chapters acting pretty humble (to Brigette) to atone for the feelings of responsibility she has for the situation.

Not the biggest Ny fan, but I do appreciate how loyal she ultimately is to Rand and Lan and how she balances that with who she is in regards to becoming Aes Sedai. She is young and impulsive, and she follows her heart more than most seasoned AS but it she does have a better handle on Rand than Moiraine ever did.

Unless Moiraine the White-tm by someone much more wise and observant than me can really school Rand and actually guide him to TG.
Jay Dauro
104. J.Dauro
@87 Lannis

I believe it was because he was in the Inn, having appeared when Loial returned. I always figured when he was injured in the Wolf Dream (I can't spell TaR) he returned to the Inn from the Dream, and had to leave from the Inn injured. He knew that if he stayed with the injury not only would Perrin get the clue, he would also probably finish the job. (And he has a fate to be killed elsewhere. Couldn't finish the job too soon.)


@98 Freelancer

Yes, I do think Brandon is the correct choice. I am also waiting for Warbreaker to be released, because I want to listen to the final version. Maybe then I will go back and read the drafts.

But I believe you are over-simplifying what he has to do. From the comments I have read, some of the chapters were well outlined, and some even written. But others were a few lines of description of what needs to happen. And after getting in to the work, he found it was going to take a whole lot more work and words than they thought originally (750,000 instead of 250,000.)

So I would say give him a 30% completed canvas, with good sketches of another 40%, and a description of the rest. Regardless, Brandon appears to just want to finish it in a manner that would please RJ.

And although I do not envy the amount of work he is doing, I do envy the fact that he knows. Almost everything. And I still have to wait another 2 years. 8^)



As far as Loial carrying Gaul, it doesn't matter how much he weighed. If it had been Gaul, Chiad, Bain and Bela, Loial would still get them out.

And count me in the group tearing up at the wedding. But the letter about to be written takes me way past just tearing up.
Lannis .
105. Lannis
Geez... leave the boys alone to chat for an evening and what do we get? Boobs.

Can't say I'm surprised. :|

Digital_Eon @ 85: re: shattered misconceptions... um... YES! Have you read my comments earlier in the reread? I'm constantly being corrected, and s'all right. I'm a big girl. :)

Mind you, at that point I was relying on the recap, and now I'm into my own reread... not knocking Leigh's recap at all--to the contrary, it's a fresh look at something I've read 8+ times and is a nice, and succinct, change--but it doesn't cover every teeny detail and sometimes, well, we friends here like to nitpick. That's the fun. :)

Freelancer @ 99: re: newlyweds... technically, I'd say if you're able to celebrate an anniversary, you're probably not a newlywed... so it ends after one year. But really, I'm with you--five years and two kids later and I still feel like we've just got married... glad to hear it's not likely to end soon. :)

J.Dauro @ 104: I kind of figure the same, and of course it fits nicely into plot progression (if Luc had been injured off screen there's no 2 to put with the other 2 to get 4, right?). Thanks! :)
Nastinka
106. Tony Zbaraschuk
I got pretty much all of the implications of Perrin's thought processes here the first time I read it: the love, the desperation, the desire to protect. Love, all shot through with the awareness of death coming. It still breaks my heart, and exalts it, to read that chapter; it's perfectly what both of them would do, and it's wonderful.

And, girls, you know, we guys do think that way, if it really comes down to it. At least the best of us do. We're quite willing to die if it means you can stay alive. Regardless of what you may think of us for it.

In hindsight, though, I will say that it might have been a very good idea if the Women's Circle had insisted on the full post-betrothal year. The first time I read that, it was "Wow, Twu Wuv really does and should conquer all, including evil societal restrictions. YAY!" After the next few episodes, it's beginning to look like the dull old customs might have had some value... perhaps a few misunderstandings could have been exposed and dealt with with less heartbreak.

Both of these chapters are like coiling springs, the tension winding higher and higher, the pressure building up and up and up -- it's the windup towards release, and the quick cut-and-flash between different viewpoints as the tension mounts, that I think really makes tSR the best book in the series. Plot control is incredibly well-done here, some of the best Jordan has in the entire series.
Nastinka
107. CJB
Re: Gaul & Chiad

Does anyone else feel sorry for Bain?

Chiad and Gaul obviously quite like each other, but there seems to be absolutely nothing there between Bain & Gaul (Gaul actually flat out tells Perrin that he doesn't like Bain).

Gaul wants to marry Chiad and will take Bain too if he has to, while Chiad doesn't want to give up the spear and will only take Gaul as a lover if he accepts Bain too. Poor Bain doesn't seem like she has much of a choice in all of this, and if she does there's certainly no good choice.
Sub Woofer
108. subwoofer
Can't exactly wrap my head around the relationship enough to figure our if it is warranted for me to feel sorry... or if it is Aiel love and cultural version of a normal relationship.
Kevin Morgan
109. DrMorganstien
Funny thing about that relationship: I had a perfect handle on it (and an opinion) but in subsequent re-reads it has gotten all mashed up in my brain and I have no idea whats going on anymore.

is there a or WOTFAQ or wotmania article to clear it up for me, or does CJB have it perfect and I'm being an idiot?

If so, I think it just comes down to how well Bain and Gaul could get along, and if Bain is a good enough person to marry a man she doesn't love because she loves her first-sister so much.
Michael Catapano
110. hoping
I feel more sorry for Gaul. He loves Chiad but she doesn't return his affection enough to be anything more than a lover. I think he wants more. Unrequited love. She's just not that into him.
Nastinka
111. WiseOne
@110
I don't know...
"He says he knows it is a dangerous thing he is asking, but she will have Bain and Chiad to help. Chiad stands up, looking anxious, and Faile tells her she will not have to leave him."
She seems pretty anxious. Maidens just have a stubborn thing with not giving up the spear.
T C
112. Freelancer
Subwoofer@103

Not an artistic bone in my body, I'm afraid. Even my stick figures are awful, though I can draw decent electronic schematics. I understand how things are done, though. Still, it's a terribly weak analogy, but I have always described fictional prose in terms of art. For example, I would compare Tolkien with Jordan by saying that Tolkien employed fewer shades and brighter colors, slightly larger strokes, and easier on the eye, while Jordan's work is darker, more variable, more complex, and requires repeated viewings to notice all the myriad detail. I would also say that Tolkien's work is purely original, while Jordan intentionally evokes thoughts of many other artists, to bring a larger sense of reality to his effort.

Still a poorly stated comparison, but it's the best I've got.


J.Dauro@104

Oversimplified? Absolutely. I said the analogy was poor. When I referenced an 80% complete Mona Lisa, that represented the 11 finished volumes. So Brandon's remaining work on the final volumes, with a substantial portion of the material for the remainder available in various stages of completion, it seemed a reasonable figure. Only Brandon knows for sure. If I were to carefully examine what Brandon has said about the work he was left to do for writing AMoL, I would judge his effort (again, my estimate has no expectation of accuracy, just an impression) as around 65% to get it all wrapped together in three new volumes that are a cohevise part of the whole.

But the original point of my comments @98 was a response to a thought by Zami@92 for who would receive credit if Faile's character became "likable again" in the end. Based on Brandon's own words about the outline (the paint-by-numbers framework), he isn't manufacturing much of the plot arcs at all, so he wouldn't think that how a character is viewed is his work. And, I could be completely wrong about how I'm reading what Brandon has said, but that is sure the impression he gives me. Maybe Leigh has an opinion about such.

Lannis@105

To your first comment, amen. Yep, men are pigs. As a guy, that bothers me as much as it does most ladies, so I guess I'm the weird one. I'm cool with that.

About a one year limitation on being newleyweds, don't use the word "technically" in any way connected to marriage, it's pure poison. And I refuse to stop calling us newleyweds because X number of calendar pages have turned.
Alan Perry
113. stepper
Leigh, Great Job as always!

I don't have as much of a problem with the cover art as some....I am rather partial to the covers of TEoTW and TDR...and (apologies to whoever did the art) compared to the BBoBA...well need I say it?

Though on the covers, I have spent some time trying to figure out who is who on the cover of this particular volume. Thinking tis Lan walking his horse, Mo at the campfire...Mat or Asmo with the cape....but Mat with the giant duopotomian bow makes more sense....

Sure there is a site somewhere that gives the details, but I don't know it, and would like to hear your thoughts!
Nastinka
114. LynnOH
Greenland @100
In the next book Egwene calls Nyn out on something
while in TAR and makes her drink a foul tea as punishment. Nyn continues to reference that when her conscious tweeks her. i feel she makes the "right" decision even when that is difficult for her.

Gaul,Chiad/Bain maybe some of Chiad's reluctance is not that she isn't deeply into Gaul but that he is a future clan chief candidate. Would having a maiden wife or 2 prevent his tripping to Rhuidean? If not can roofmistresses stay with the spear?
Nastinka
115. Lisamarie
Yay, I got caught up again. The Shadow Rising was my favorite book of all - I still remember what it was like to read the for the first time about 10 years ago.

I really enjoy the rereads and discussing all the gender role stuff too - although I don't know that I agree that Perrin's desire to send Faile away is a Guy Thing. He wants to protect her. He doesn't want her to be hurt, which is pretty natural - love means wanting to spare people from harm. You could debate the whole, 'not letting them make a choice angle', but the women were conspiring to only eat half rations and not tell the men - isn't that taking away THEIR choice?

I also thought the comment about enjoying the males being adjunct characters to the women instead of the other way around. Do you all think this is meant to be some intentional gender flip? I just saw it as an artifact of the fact that for this storyline, the female characters are the ones in the spotlight, with their own complex internal stuff going on (which IS definitely cool to see!). Likewise, when the males are the main characters, the other characters end up as adjuncts.

And I've always been a Nynaeve lover. Yeah, she's brash, but as her friends comment shows, I'm sure part of that is insecurity and having to be an authority figure at a young age, and not totally perfecting the 'steel hand in a velvet glove' kind of manner. But I really enjoy her manner because at least you know what she's thinking and feeling :)

Actually, I can't say I viscerally dislike any of the characters that much except for Berelain. I find her incredibly disrepectful and only interested in using people.
Nastinka
116. CalaLily
Ya know, we get to see that Gaul and Chiad are really into each other, and we find out that Chiad won't marry Gaul unless he marries Bain, too, but he doesn't -want- Bain, and while all this is going on I can't help but think: Have either of these people asked -Bain- how she feels on the matter? Is Chiad using her first-sister as an excuse not to commit? Is Bain secretly in love with Gaul and angry that he only wants her sister?

I mean, do we EVER see Bain all "Yeah, we're a two-fer you goatbrain!" or "Nah, he's not my type, Chiad. Have at him."

I can't recall. xD
Nastinka
117. Tweedledee
I think it is unfair to compare Nynaeve with Mat...the guy is brash and looking to goof off most of the time but he never tries to enforce his will on the people around him. Nynaeve is socially inept due to her own attitudes and presumptions towards others. RJ shows her 'human' side more here than in most chapters but jeez it's just not fair to poor Mat to compare the two.

Love your thoughts and comments. Have a nice weekend.
Nastinka
118. CalaLily
I think Nynaeve is socially inept because people keep putting her in positions of authority and then second-guessing her every move. I'd be snappy, too.

And when I say second-guess, I don't mean politely question for clarification. Everyone always seems to think that they can be in charge better than she can, but they're the ones who have put her in charge in the first place. Not to mention making decisions without telling her, ignoring her, ect. I'm surprised she isn't bald from trying to pull her hair out in frustration, frankly. Not that she doesn't try. That poor braid.
Tony Zbaraschuk
119. tonyz
It's interesting to compare Nynaeve and Siuan Sanche; both of them are promoted very much more quickly than normal to leadership positions in female-dominated societies, and both of them are somewhat brusque and prickly.

Cause? Or effect?
kori lockwood
120. kori
I have always been a nyn lover myself, but I do really really enjoy the shift of power between her and eg coming up.
kori lockwood
121. kori
On another note, Gaul= 6ft+ and 200 lbs....... nice I want one. I guess the guys aren't the only ones obsessed with physical attributes......walks off giggling
kori lockwood
122. kori
I was just wondering, any theories on why none of the Aes Sedai have bonded any of the Aiel? This seems like a no brainer to me. Crazy good fighting skills+absolute reverence for sisters=best warder ever.
TW L
123. Shadow_Jak
CJB @ 107
Gaul wants to marry Chiad and will take Bain too if he has to, while Chiad doesn't want to give up the spear and will only take Gaul as a lover if he accepts Bain too. Poor Bain doesn't seem like she has much of a choice in all of this, and if she does there's certainly no good choice.

As I miss-understand the whole Gaul, Bain, Chiad thingy... you have it backwards. It's Bain that Gaul wants, not Chiad. He's not interested in Chiad. At least not initially.
“Chiad,” Gaul muttered. “The woman is Goshien. Goshien! I should take her back to Hot Springs as gai’shain.” The words sounded angry, but not his odd tone. “Chiad.”

Chaid, on the other hand, seems very interested in him. But I don't think Chiad is the real issue anyway. Bain and Chiad seem willing to take Gaul as a lover, but Gaul wants more. He wants to marry Bain. Maidens of the Spear cannot marry. They are married to the Spear. Bain is not willing to give up the Spear for Gaul (yet).
Gaul loves Bain, Bain loves Chiad (and the Spear), Chaid loves Gaul.
T C
124. Freelancer
CalaLily@118

Nynaeve is socially inept because she's a selfish brat that doesn't want anyone else to have an opinion unless she gives it to them.

"If you asked her the way you usually do, Wit," Tam said patiently, "you're lucky she didn't thump you with that stick she carries."

. . .
"Anyway, Nynaeve answered like she'd bitten a green sweetberry. Then, when the Lady Moiraine walked away, Nynaeve stared after her like, like . . . well, it wasn't friendly, I can tell you that."
"Is that all?" Rand said. "You know Nynaeve's temper. When Cenn buie called her a child last year, she thumped him on the head with her stick, and he's on the Village Council, and old enough to be her grandfather, besides. She flares up at anything, and never stays angry past turning around."

. . .
Later one or another of them would almost certainly complain about being scolded by a woman not all that much older than themselves - someone always did after one of Nynaeve's scoldings, if never in her hearing - but the gap in ages always seemed more than wide enough when face to face with her. Especially if she was angry. The stick in her hand was thick at one end and a slender switch at the other, and she was liable to give a flail to anybody she thought was acting the fool - head or hands or legs - no matter their age or position.

. . .
"When I came downstairs to smoke my pipe before the fire and have a mug of ale, every man in the common room stares at me as if I were his least favorite brother-in-law seeking to borrow money. One old grandfather starts ranting at me about the kind of stories I should or should not tell, then a girl-child shouts at me to get out, and threatens me with a great club when I don't move quickly enough for her. Who ever heard of treating a gleeman so?"

. . .
Nynaeve, busy gathering her cloak around her, sniffed loudly. "Worry about the gleeman if you want, Brandelwyn al'Vere. At least he is in Emond's Field, which is more than you can say for this false Dragon. But as long as you are worrying, there are others here who should excite your worry."
"If you please, Wisdom," Bran said stiffly, "kindly leave who should worry me to my deciding. Mistress Moiraine and Master Lan are quests in my inn, and decent, respectable folk, so I say. Neither of them has called me a fool in front of the whole Council. Neither of them has told the Council it hasn't a full set of wits among them."


Not even four full chapters into volume one, and this is the portrayal of Nynaeve al'Meara. I left out the front end of the scene where she berates the boys for talking about the false Dragon, naming the Dark One, etc., because she didn't threaten to beat anyone, and she was much closer to being within her authority. For the rest, she assaults or threatens anyone who doesn't think as she wishes, or who doesn't treat her like the earth mother goddess. Her threats or assaults come sometimes on marginal provocation, sometimes on none at all, sometimes just to remind everyone she holds her authority as superior to theirs, regardless of their seniority or stature. Moiraine and Thom she dislikes with no reason whatsoever. Moiraine called her child, but apologized strongly. Nynaeve not only won't apologize for her own unacceptable behaviors, she won't recognize a sincere apology from another if it doesn't suit her mood.

Oh yeah, she da bomb. Well, she's explosive, anyway.

Many folks' favorite characters are Mat and Nynaeve. They are my least favorite of the primary Duopotamians. Mat's nature is to take enjoyment from other's discomfort, through pranks or pilfery. Other than that he's lazy and unreliable. Yes, he grows out of it, but the Trickster is well named. Nynaeve's nature is to blame others first even when her own heart knows she is at fault, and to browbeat, or simply beat, others into agreeing with her. Quite the fascist little Wisdom there. That said, I don't dislike them, not at all. I just prefer to honor the honorable, and the two of them, even to the current point of the re-read, aren't that.
TW L
125. Shadow_Jak
Kori @122
I was just wondering, any theories on why none of the Aes Sedai have bonded any of the Aiel? This seems like a no brainer to me. Crazy good fighting skills+absolute reverence for sisters=best warder ever.

I suspect they haven't found an Aiel with that little sense!
Also, that "absolute reverence for sisters", I would characterize more as, "be polite to Aes Sedai so maybe they will be (a little) less likely to hurl lighting at you"

Kori @ 121
All men really are pigs. (*thinking* Bain and Chiad? Yes!)
But, some of you some of the girls can hang right in there with us!
Not that I'm saying... I mean I'm just saying...
Well, I mean, just look at how Mat and Birgitte relate in Ebou Dar, once they get to know each other!
*wiping a bit of sweat from my brow* Is it warm in here?
Nastinka
126. odigity-in-motel
subwoofer@96:

Thanks for the link to the Bruce Lee article. That was fascinating.
Nastinka
127. odigity-in-motel
Freelancer@112: To your first comment, amen. Yep, men are pigs.

Yeah, but you're a towel.

I like boobs, and I feel no remorse about this. Perhaps you can explain to me why I should be ashamed of liking boobs, because I'm stumped.

Pigs? Really?
Nastinka
128. odigity-in-motel
kori@121: On another note, Gaul= 6ft+ and 200 lbs....... nice I want one. I guess the guys aren't the only ones obsessed with physical attributes......walks off giggling

How dare you objectify men like that, we're not just meat you know, and blah blah this and that, you're horrible for having a sex drive and other such masculinism nonsense...

Masculinism? Is that the right term? Do we even get an equivalent word?

Equality my ass.

PS-Wanna make out?
Kevin Morgan
129. DrMorganstien
I almost just fell off my chair I was laughing so hard.
Alice Arneson
130. Wetlandernw
Oh, it is so too late at night to start this. But I'll give it a quick shot.

Freelancer: Got nothin' on the newlywed query. You're three years ahead of me, so go fish.

Odigity-in-motel: Go soak your head. sounds like you need it.

Freelancer on Nynaeve: I understand why you react this way, but I gotta think you're wrong. My read (which is of course correct, because I'm never wrong. Ask my 6-year-old.) is that as Wisdom, she was really very unsure of herself, (except when it comes to "listening to the wind", which is another thesis) but she would rather die than allow anyone to see that uncertainty. To protect herself, she buries it so deeply that she doesn't even allow herself to think about it, with the result that most of the Emonds Field folk see her as totally self-confident. That's what the Wisdom is supposed to be, for pete's sake. So she's giving 'em "Wisdom" for all she's worth, and in building that wall around herself she pretty much cuts off any chance of friendship. I think Nynaeve's "journey" in these books is learning to let go of what she thinks she "ought" to be, in order to do what she needs to do. Look at her eventually block-breaking.

Oh, heck, I'm just going to tangle this up if I go any farther tonight. If I read it tomorrow and it still makes sense, I may expand on it, but I have an awful feeling I'm going to have to rewrite it. :)

Anyway, I'm just saying, I think I know where she's coming from. Not quite the same personality or position, but I can still relate a whole big bunch.

Oh, and whoever it was: chilvalry is neither dead nor unnecessary. Go fish.

And I'm gonna throttle whoever started that dang spam spam spam spam... Talk about a tune cootie!
T C
131. Freelancer
Wetlandernw

You are, of course, correct.

I don't doubt that there are very justifiable, deep-seeded reasons for each of Nynaeve's foibles. That doesn't excuse unacceptable behavior as the result of them for her any more than it does for someone else. I mean, what would anyone say if she violently assaulted another adult by say, spanking them? Oh, but it's ok to beat an old man over the head with a tree branch.

It was our resident anarchist who attempted to bury chivalry. I'm the nutcase who claims to still observe it, and not simply towards women. There's so much more to chivalry than that.

Finally, blame me for the spam. It was in response to Randalator's reprisal of the dead parrot routine, at Sammael's expense. If it will help clear that number from your mind, enjoy.
Nastinka
132. jafco
Thanks, Leigh. The wodka doesn't seem to have any negative effect on your reread skills.

As to: "...I really do get why some people have such a problem with her, by the way. I guess, though, that for me courage and competence trump far worse personality flaws than Nynaeve’s been given...." No problems here. Nyn is - as you described her - the female analogue of Mat, except that she recognizes some boundaries on her actions that Mat will never acknowledge. And so, she's often in a "taking". Regardless, she's great in my (masculine) book.

Basically agree with Rand @ 6'4", etc (thanx, Wetlandern). In KoD, Gaul is described (in a recount of snatching Galina) as "massive" so I'm going 6'4"-6'6" and 240 lbs (tall, broad chested and well muscled but on the lean side because the Aiel run a lot). I think Elayne is up there with Avi, too, at 5'8" - 5'10".

@82. Freelancer: Good post all around. Agree with most of what you say.

@101. jamesedjones: Amen!
T C
133. Freelancer
Shadow_Jak@125

But, some of you some of the girls can hang right in there with us!
Among the saddest truths in existence today. That any female would discard her self-respect in favor of acting as boorish as most males, in order to feel "equal". A very painful behavior I witnessed all to often when women began to be allowed on combat ships in the U.S. Navy. And before anyone misunderstands, I have no qualms against a woman serving in a combat role if she chooses so. But trying to prove you belong in a majority-male environment by outdoing the worst males for the worst behavior, just very sad, both because it is unnecessary and that it doesn't ever accomplish the desired result.

Birgitte is a wonderful character, and her male-styled behavior is a great flavor added to the whole, as it puts people off-balance. Thankfully, her portrayal of this concept is by no means as profane or ugly as the real-life versions.
Michael Catapano
134. hoping
Shadow_Jak@123
Are you certain about the gaul/bain/chiad triangle?
I thought it was bain and chiad love each other as first sisters and both love the spear. Gaul loves chiad and chiad loves gaul but not enough to marry him and give up the spear. Gaul and bain are indifferent to each other. Gaul is insulted that they will have him for sex but do not consider him marraige material.

Off the top of my head I couldn't think of where in the books I got this impression. I do remember that Gaul was very upset in KOD after the faile rescue that chiad was not found and he left perrin to find her.
Nastinka
135. alreadymadwhenNynaevepulledherbraidoff
greenland @100
Perhaps that's why story arcs involving the girls are so annoying. Their stubborn arrogance and foolhardiness perpetually gets them into trouble and yet since they always either luck out or are rescued by their much abused menfolk (to whom they are always patently ungrateful), they never really learn their lesson.
Egwene was a whole lot better by the time the Wise Ones were done with her. But Nynaeve and Elayne? They'd never sit still for it.

J.Dauro @104
Slayer coming out of TAR in the Two Rivers raises another question. While in TAR he can pretty much come out anywhere, since he goes there in the flesh. Why did he come out in the Two Rivers and blow his cover? Couldn't he have come out anywhere else?

hoping @134
That's what I understand of the Gaul/Chiad/Bain triangle as well.
Lannis .
136. Lannis
Dear Lord, look at the mess I started! I only said the topic turned to boobs and I wasn't surprised. Sorry folks, didn't mean to start a war. It was just an observation--and to be fair, it was completely a joke, too, because the conversation from our gentlemen at that point was not disrespectful or objectifying, only a discussion of body fat and its affects on breasts.

Whoops! Sorry! :|

Shadow-Jak... is there room at that table? ;)
Jay Dauro
137. J.Dauro
@135 alreadymad... whatever

I don't know about that. When we see him try to kill Rand & Min later, he is in the same location in TaR as he wants to emerge in the Waking World. We will see Egwene travel in TaR to emerge in Salidar, before she learns to travel.

Since we know Slayer does not channel, I don't think we can say he can emerge just anywhere. (I am trying to think of counter-examples.)

And if he is not there "in the flesh" he will of course re-awaken where he went to sleep.

Regardless, if I have just taken an arrow to the chest, I might not be in as much control as I would otherwise.
Kevin Morgan
138. DrMorganstien
@135 already...too lazy to type it all
I assume Slayer came out because if he stayed another second he would've died. Where he was in T'A'R was the same spot he came out in Randland, so he just galloped to the nearest village for medical attention.
Lannis .
139. Lannis
alreadymad @ 135... I saw your handle on the latest comments sidebar, and thought the whole thing would be alreadymadwhennynaevepulledherheadoff... and then I was disappointed. ;P
Richard Fife
140. R.Fife
DrMorganstien, he ran out of the inn wounded and left the village. As to him being able to step out anywhere, see his attack in Far Madding, and also the thoughts that make us pretty sure he killed the BA in Tear's dungeon. Only non-plot-holey way was if he was just there in a normal dream instead of the flesh.

Freelancer@133
Yeah meta-conversations. I am kinda in the school of "lighten up". There is nothing wrong at all with admiring the female form. Biology made them nice looking to the male eye, after all, so we would want to perpetuate the race. That being said, I am annoyed at the complete objectification, but long as you still appreciate other aspects of the woman (like, you know, her mind?), I think it is perfectly fair game to enjoy the vast tracks of land too.
Nastinka
141. alreadymadwhenPerrinpwnedSlayer
Lannis @139
Provoke me into another rant on the Girls and I just might do that. :P

R.Fife @140
Yep, either he panicked and went out where he went in, or he dreamed his way in. But then again, if he dreamed his way in, why would he bother to choose that route? Why didn't he go in the flesh?
And yeah, admiring the female form is natural, and in all fairness, females admire the male form more than we would think.
Lannis .
142. Lannis
alreadymad @ 141: re: females admiring... (Ahem) yes. Except women (usually) lean towards being more discreet. ;)
Nastinka
143. alreadymadwhenLucandIsamdivorced
Giggles aren't exactly what i'd call discreet :P
Guys have the babewatch and Girls have the manhunt.
All fair and equal LOL
Lannis .
144. Lannis
::giggles:: XD

I mean, BAHAHhahahaha! alreadymad, your handles are cracking me up.

So much for discussion... XD
kori lockwood
145. kori
odigity@128
I think ur the only one who got my joke. hmmmm guess I'm not as funny as I thought I was. Anywhoo, really no one has any ideas about Aiel warders? they served Aes Sedai once and will again. anyone? anyone?
Ian Horn
146. IanGH
AlreadyMad @135: You caught something that has been bothering me for a while. Perrin is across the river from Taren Ferry when the event happens. So if Slayer is there in the flesh, he should have come out of the dream there. Perhaps Slayer can dream his way into T'A'R as well as cross over in the flesh? Maybe RJ hadn't worked this out yet at this point.

About Nynaeve: I have been a mild fan of hers throughout the series but these middle books are very testing. She certainly exhibits some obnoxious behaviour. But so many of the good guys are similar. If all the good characters were nice, the story would not be as engaging. Or as long...

About chivalry: I don't think Perrin's wish to send Faile to safety is wrong or chauvanistic in the least since it was not done in a bossy or proprietay manner. The Emond's Field women are on half rations so that the men can keep enough to eat because they are the ones fighting the trollocs. Turn about?

My wife makes sacrifices all the time for our children, and for me. Holding the door open for her is hardly fair recompense. Chivalry is dead! Long live chivalry!

About Loial's weight: If a well-muscled 6'5" man weighs 250 lbs., according to the square-cube law a 10' Ogier ("half again" as tall as a man) would be about 500 lbs. Of course, there is nothing saying that an Ogier would have the same height-weight proportions as a human but 1000 lbs. would seem too heavy.
Richard Fife
147. R.Fife
As I recall, Loial is described as half again as tall and twice as wide. More of a dwarf build, only, you know, three times as tall. I'd say somewhere around 700-800lbs.

To Gual, after talking with my army buddy who is doing is Infantry training, I am in the school that Gual probably weighs closer to a 170, even at 6'5. My army buddy, who is running to all bejeebus, is 6'1 and expecting to weigh in around 150 once the last of his college-beer fat burns off, and that is with it being burned into muscle.

Also, remember that Loial is an endurance kinda guy too. Yeah, he's a bookworm, but he still is known for being one of the faster ogier's in his stedding, and prefers to walk everywhere while people ride. Also, imagine how many angry mobs he has outrun during the pre-book years while he was wandering and getting mistaken for a Trolloc half the time.
Michael Catapano
148. hoping
Gaul is taller than Rand so more than 6'6 and 170 would make him marathon runner thin. There have been aiel described as slender but I think he's probably closer to 200-220 but just a guess.

A 1000 lb horse would have a great deal of difficulty running for three days even with a weight of 170 lb on his back. It makes loial's feat even more impressive since he carried him in his arms. These ogier are definitely a hardy lot with much different physiology than we are familiar with.
F Shelley
149. FSS
You know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bain actually loves Gaul more than Chiad, and gives him a harder time because she doesn't want to be rebuffed.

The only evidence I have is this (from TSR):
Chiad turned amused gray eyes on the Aielman. "Do you mean to move like wind then, Stone Dog? It
will be diverting to see a Stone Dog try to move lightly. When my spear-sister and I have rescued the prisoners, perhaps we will go back for you, if you are too old to find your own way." Bain touched her arm, and she looked at the flame-haired woman in surprise. After a moment, she flushed slightly under her tan.

It's always struck me how Bain was the one to stop Chiad, although it could have more to do with the situation at the time...
Nastinka
150. alreadymadwhenGaulgotdoubleteamed
That's a very interesting insight.

Yes, I had previously thought that Bain stopped Chiad because she was being too harsh on someone she (Chiad) might not want to drive off. But maybe Bain stopped Chiad because Bain didn't want to hurt Gaul?
Michael Catapano
151. hoping
FSS
alreadymadseeminglyonenanosecondafterthebigbang

Rj does leave room for interpretation. I took it to mean that chiad should stop bantering and pay attention to the plan. But I'm a simple guy. :)
Ofer Nave
152. odigity
kori@145: I think ur the only one who got my joke. hmmmm guess I'm not as funny as I thought I was.

Well, some people don't have a sense of humor. I enjoyed it.

Lannis@136: Dear Lord, look at the mess I started! I only said the topic turned to boobs and I wasn't surprised.

All you said was:

Lannis@105: Geez... leave the boys alone to chat for an evening and what do we get? Boobs.

Can't say I'm surprised.


That was funny and harmless. I don't hold you accountable for what came after. :)

And for a final word on the topic, let's turn to Aviendha, who is conversing with Rand in Ch. 36 of TSR:

"What do you mean?" he asked.

Her bulky skirts did not hinder her, walking along beside Jeade'en. No, not walking. Stalking. If she were a cat, she would be lashing her tail. "Elayne is a wetlander, your own kind. " She tossed her head arrogantly. The short tail that Aiel warriors wore at the nape of the neck was, missing. The folded scarf around her temples nearly enveloped her hair. "Exactly the woman for you. Is she not beautiful? Her back is straight, her limbs supple and strong, her lips like plump loveapples. Her hair is spun gold, her eyes blue sapphires. Her skin is smoother than the finest silk, her bosom fine and well-rounded. Her hips are-"

He cut her off frantically, his cheeks heating. "I know she's pretty. What are you doing?"

"I am describing her." Aviendha frowned up him. "Have you seen her in her bath? There is no need for me to describe her if you have seen-"

"I have not seen!" He wished he did not sound strangled. Rhuarc and the others were listening, faces too blank for anything but amusement. Mat rolled his eyes with an open, roguish grin.

The woman only shrugged and rearranged her shawl. "She should,have arranged it. But I have -seen her, and I will act as her near sister." The emphasis, seemed to say his "near sister" might have done the same; Aiel customs were strange, but this was mad! "Her hips-

"Stop that!"
Mira Sliwinski
153. Taia
I finally caught up to the re-read. Thanks for all your hard work Leigh. These posts are very informative & entertaining.
T C
154. Freelancer
To whom it may concern:

I have had not one word to say about the female anatomy, the appreciation thereof or not. Asking me why I oppose something I've not commented upon, what does it mean? The gentleman (and others) doth protest too much, methinks.

My only comment in this vein was men are pigs. Yes, one of those hated generalizations, and of course there are exceptions, though far too few. What is amusing to me, is that those who respond as though taking the most offense to my simple statement, also have done far more to prove it than not.

Were I the prude some seem to suppose me to be, I wouldn't have continued reading this story past TFoH. Take it for what it's worth, thanks.

R.Fife@140

"Biology" has rational thought in the creative sense? It is God made us as we are. Or else an endless series of accidents.
Richard Fife
155. R.Fife
Freelancer, I won't go down that path, but I will say this. Whether pure science or divine power, the opposite sexes were made attractive to each other so that we would "go forth and multiply".

--And... not going down the other path of discussion as this is not the place for it. (but it is the place to talk about boobs. Does seem odd that Maidens have any, since they are "the fastest, often used as scouts.")
Alice Arneson
156. Wetlandernw
Hey, thanks for nobody taking me too seriously last night. I looked at my post again this afternoon, and it clearly should not have been posted.

I still hold by my analysis of Ny, but agree that insecurity isn't an adequate reason to walk around thumping people.

odigityinmotel - something in your post reminded me irresistably of Elayne needing to have her head shoved in the water basin. Could be completely unrelated, but it just jumped up and bit me. Couldn't resist.

And on the subject of tune cooties (possible needful given the amount of youtube links on here), I'm told that you can get rid of almost any tune by humming "The Girl from Ipanema" - but only if you don't know the words. If you do, then you're stuck with a new cootie for which there is no known cure.
Nastinka
157. mityorkie
Ah, Jordan-cough-I-mean-Perrin and Faile when they are together, and therefore much less annoying.
Ofer Nave
158. odigity
Wetlandernw@156: odigityinmotel - something in your post reminded me irresistably of Elayne needing to have her head shoved in the water basin. Could be completely unrelated, but it just jumped up and bit me. Couldn't resist.

For the record, I was not drunk. Nor was I flirting with my near-step-father.
Nastinka
159. alreadymadwhensupportwasinvented
R.Fife @155
Yes, maidens are said to be the fastest around. Makes me wonder what sort of support they wear.

Wetlandernw @156
I don't know how Girl from Ipanema goes either, so I can't hum it.
Richard Fife
160. R.Fife
@159 alreadymad
Don't be mad. Maidens don't need support if they have nothing to support. Baring that, I'd imagine maiden cadin'sor has a built in corset of sorts. It is the "working clothes" after all. Must be functional.
Captain Hammer
162. Randalator
alreadymadwhensomethingsomething @159

Yes, maidens are said to be the fastest around. Makes me wonder what sort of support they wear.

Given the fact that the Aiel are basically Superman/Wonder Woman, the original übermen/-women and Chuck Norris all rolled into one, they probably don't need any support at all because they're just really tight.

*...*

Yeah, um...I'll be standing over there. Feel free to point at and ridicule me. You can also tell your daughters not to marry someone like me, or your sons that you wished they were girls so you could forbid them to marry the likes of me.
Nastinka
163. alreadymadwhenthesaidinwascleansed
Rick Fryce @160
Wouldn't corsets be.. hot in the desert? And with all that running they would need to breathe too.
sandi vogel
164. sinfulcashew
R. Fife
I thought I had seen that movie, but I sure don't remember that portion.
Love Bette and that tribute!
And how fitting to the discussion!

I have to agree to the Maidens not being 'pulchitrudinous'? (is that a word?)
All the athletical stuff they partake of would seem to detract from their bosoms.
craig thrift
165. gagecreedlives
Hey peoples I finally made it to the party. Better late then never I guess. And here are my thoughts for what its worth.

“Nynaeve could remember all too well the other woman’s nightmares for weeks after she was freed, waking up screaming that she would not be chained. Much the best to let it lie. It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman”

Anyone else think that this could be some foreshadowing. Maybe something to do with the dream Eg has in CoT about a Seanchan woman with a sword offering to help her.

“she is reduced to muttering sotto voce imprecations at him she still seems to think he cannot hear.”

Oh I am pretty sure she knows he can hear her. I think this might be how Faile does subtle.

I had forgotten that Aram was Perrins best man for his wedding. I understand why he picked Loial to stand for him but Aram?! WTF

How many desks have you been through Leigh with all this *headdesking* you have going on? And will there be any desks left in the world after this reread is complete

Roxinos@94

“Does it not bother you in the slightest that Elayne and Nynaeve both stay in while Thom, Juilin, and Domon all risk themselves gathering information? Doesn't that break your Equality Or Headdesk clause?”

That’s just common sense. I think the 3 guys here have a great deal more experience when it comes to ferreting out information in a city and dealing with its rougher areas than a village woman and a princess. Remember they did try and go walking the streets of Tanchico and got attacked for their troubles.

And boobies = awesomeness

No ifs or buts about it.

Well buts are ok too I guess
Nastinka
166. Planeswalker
Yea, im gonna wait for the next post. Too much female anatomy...

...im havin a f*ckin nosebleed!
Nastinka
167. CalaLily
“Does it not bother you in the slightest that Elayne and Nynaeve both stay in while Thom, Juilin, and Domon all risk themselves gathering information? Doesn't that break your Equality Or Headdesk clause?”

Not in the least, especially in a city that's in complete chaos, people get robbed naked and/or killed for any money they have, and Elayne and Ny can't channel without alerting the Black Ajah to their presence. It makes perfect sense that a dagger-wielding man, one who catches criminals for a living, and one who IS a professional criminal would be the one to brave the streets to gather info. They're a lot less noticeable than two women, one of whom is -obviously- NOT a Taraboner, trying to do the same thing. I don't see it as a matter of gender but of assessing risk versus reward. Risk of Ny/El getting caught versus the probability of getting any -useful- info. After all, their only way to really defend themselves in a riot would get them noticed by the very people they -don't- want to see them coming.

I imagine the Black Ajah would not be so kind as rabid Taraboners.
Nastinka
168. RobMRobM
Re @99, 105 on subject of end of newlywed status - technically, it ends when each spouse can break wind in the other's presence w/out any embarrassment....Just saying.

Rob ;-)
Alice Arneson
169. Wetlandernw
odigity: For the record, I was not drunk. Nor was I flirting with my near-step-father.

You can't imagine my relief.
Ofer Nave
170. odigity
Totally off-topic, though chronologically relevant:

Elayne and Nynaeve just walked/rode/sailed from Falme to Tar Valon to Tear to Tanchico.

If you don't already have it memorized, go look at a map of Randland, and trace that path with your finger. (Do this in a carpeted room so you don't hurt your jaw.)

How come no one ever says, "What!? Tanchico!? But we just came from there! Blood and bloody ashes!"

Cause that would have been me.

Incidentally, shouldn't blood be pronounced "blued"? What a wacky language we use.
Nastinka
171. AllTheGoodHandlesAreTaken
I always thought Luc returned to the inn because that where his horse was stabled.

But I can't think of where he would be going, I mean he must have a camp somewhere outside the village, but would would be there waiting for him. And what sort of Healing skills would they have?
T C
172. Freelancer
R.Fife@155

Sorry, not going to let you off that easily. Science does not create, it discovers. You cannot credit a system of acquiring knowledge for genetic creation. But I understand the point is moot, and will drop it.


RobMRobM@168

See, I already warned, using the word technically in any way associated with marriage is walking the razor's edge. Best to just not.


already@159

The Girl from Ipanema, a subdued bossa nova classic inspired by a beautiful young lady that the author sees walk by almost daily, and would like to meet, but never does. Interestingly, even after being acknowledged by the songwriter as the girl from Ipanema, when the woman used the song's title as the name of a fashion boutique in 2001, the author sued her for copyright infringement.
Nastinka
173. alreadymadwhenthegirlfromipanemagotsued
Freelancer @172

The Girl from Ipanema, a subdued bossa nova classic inspired by a beautiful young lady that the author sees walk by almost daily, and would like to meet, but never does. Interestingly, even after being acknowledged by the songwriter as the girl from Ipanema, when the woman used the song's title as the name of a fashion boutique in 2001, the author sued her for copyright infringement.


Guess she should have given the auther her number first.
Nastinka
174. RobMRobM
Free @172 - I used "technically" to follow Wetlander's phrasing and not for the truth of the matter asserted. I have been married long enough (just under half of my life) to know the difference. Of course, by my own def I am still a newlywed since my wife has retained significant lady-like attributes despite years of marriage to me....)

Rob

P.s. Girl from Ipanema is now running through my head on a repeat loop - I do know the song even without listening to the link -- and it's not stopping, damn you all.
Sydo Zandstra
175. Fiddler
Well, that was some reading...


greenland@100:

I get frustrated, though, because even though Jordan knows his character this well, he never really plays with Nynaeve's vulnerabilities. What would happen if her famed arrogance caused someone innocent to get hurt?

That did happen. Remember when she realizes that she caused riots when Masema's and Galad's forces are fighting to secure the boat for her and Elayne in Samara (FOH ch 47: The Price of a Ship).


subwoofer@103:

Nynaeve, in future chapters, does show some guilt and remorse for how she treats people. The whole Brigette story arc outlines the power of Ny's guilt and stubbornness of how much guilt she has. After Ny goes after MO and Brigette intervenes and gets hurt, Ny spends quite a few chapters acting pretty humble (to Brigette) to atone for the feelings of responsibility she has for the situation.

Not the biggest Ny fan, but I do appreciate how loyal she ultimately is to Rand and Lan and how she balances that with who she is in regards to becoming Aes Sedai. She is young and impulsive, and she follows her heart more than most seasoned AS but it she does have a better handle on Rand than Moiraine ever did.


Amen. Remember Nynaeve didn't go with Moiraine and company, but followed after them in EotW. She feels responsible for Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene.

That being said, I can't wait for the scene where Mat is going to spank her...



CJB@107:

Does anyone else feel sorry for Bain?

Chiad and Gaul obviously quite like each other, but there seems to be absolutely nothing there between Bain & Gaul (Gaul actually flat out tells Perrin that he doesn't like Bain).

Gaul wants to marry Chiad and will take Bain too if he has to, while Chiad doesn't want to give up the spear and will only take Gaul as a lover if he accepts Bain too. Poor Bain doesn't seem like she has much of a choice in all of this, and if she does there's certainly no good choice.



That's something that has been bothering me, as far as a Fantasy series can bother people. I can see the whole first-sisters thing, but why do you have to take both women as a wife? And how does it work with first-brothers, if the woman has to take initiative? Oh well...


kori@122:

I was just wondering, any theories on why none of the Aes Sedai have bonded any of the Aiel? This seems like a no brainer to me. Crazy good fighting skills+absolute reverence for sisters=best warder ever.

Moiraine was the first AS to enter the Waste in a long time. There was also a picture of Aiel=Bad after the Aiel War.

Apart from that, Aiel seem to be a people who think in collectives: Clans, Septs, Societies. The whole AS/Warder thing is more individual. I don't think any Aiel would feel comfortable in such an arrangement.


Freelancer@124:

Not even four full chapters into volume one, and this is the portrayal of Nynaeve al'Meara. I left out the front end of the scene where she berates the boys for talking about the false Dragon, naming the Dark One, etc., because she didn't threaten to beat anyone, and she was much closer to being within her authority. For the rest, she assaults or threatens anyone who doesn't think as she wishes, or who doesn't treat her like the earth mother goddess. Her threats or assaults come sometimes on marginal provocation, sometimes on none at all, sometimes just to remind everyone she holds her authority as superior to theirs, regardless of their seniority or stature.

I still like her. Again, Mat spanking her is a great scene...


R.Five@147:

Also, remember that Loial is an endurance kinda guy too. Yeah, he's a bookworm, but he still is known for being one of the faster ogier's in his stedding, and prefers to walk everywhere while people ride. Also, imagine how many angry mobs he has outrun during the pre-book years while he was wandering and getting mistaken for a Trolloc half the time.

This made me laugh really hard. *bows*
Nastinka
176. RobSS
As far as Slayer leaving the dream after taking a arrow from Perrin. I always thought that he woke up because of the way it was worded. Don't have the exact words, but he faded out of the dream. I would think that if he was there in the flesh, he would have stepped out.
Antoni Ivanov
177. tonka
@ 170.odigity
I don't see your point.It's not like they were in the same city. They were not even in the same country (or at least if you ask someone in Arad Doman). Tanchico is as far from Falme as Caemlyn is from Cairhien. It's not big deal
Nastinka
178. alreadymadwhentheAielleftthewaste
Fiddler @175
Apart from that, Aiel seem to be a people who think in collectives: Clans, Septs, Societies. The whole AS/Warder thing is more individual. I don't think any Aiel would feel comfortable in such an arrangement.
Now that you mention it, yeah, an Aiel wouldn't feel comfortable being away from his society brothers and general Aiel society for extended periods. Even their current excursion, away from the Three Fold Land is already causing them some discomfort.
Ofer Nave
179. odigity
tonka@177:
I don't see your point.It's not like they were in the same city. They were not even in the same country (or at least if you ask someone in Arad Doman). Tanchico is as far from Falme as Caemlyn is from Cairhien. It's not big deal

Not a big deal? Let's try this again.

You're in Chicago, studying at the University, but then get magically whisked away to San Francisco, where one of your friends gets captured and tortured, but then you rescue her. You start walking/riding back to Chicago. It takes months.

A few days after you get there, you determine that it's imperative to go to Miami. So once again, you walk/ride/riverboat your way to Miami. It takes weeks.

A few weeks after you get there, you determine that it's imperative to go to Los Angeles. So once again, you board a boat to go Los Angeles, expecting the journey to take a month (though you get lucky and it takes ten days).

You don't see the complete suckage of spending half a year walking/riding/sailing from San Francisco through Chiacago to Miami, only to find out you need to go to Los Angeles next?

Call me a whiny bitch, but I'd be breaking rocks. I'd still go, because the mission is important, but I'd spend my time along the way sketching every possible transportation innovation my mad mind could muster to prevent this from ever happening again.

---
Answer key: San Francisco = Falme, Chicago = Tar Valon, Miami = Tear, Los Angeles = Tanchico (geographically, not culturally)
Richard Fife
180. R.Fife
Odigity: it isn't like they were doing was running in a circle. yes, they did not spend much time in the tower learning, but they did have a plot critical thing of becoming BA hunters and two of them being raised accepted, and Elayne would probably saying getting to snuggle with Rand in Tear and Nynaeve getting to see Lan again in Tear was worth the sidetrip.

Yes, it is a giant loop (sorta) but at least it wasn't like a boring grey-hound ride. They were being productive.
Ofer Nave
181. odigity
I'm not sure why I'm having such difficulty getting my point across here. I'm not saying the trips weren't necessary. I'm not saying the trips weren't productive. They were necessary, and they were productive.

The only thing I'm trying to say is that if I'd been along, I'd have been throwing tantrums.

"WHADYA MEAN WE GOTTA GO BACK TO THE WEST COAST?"
Ofer Nave
182. odigity
Nevermind. Let's just get back to the original topic... boobs.

How about that Karede guy, eh? When he walked into camp full of bluster, then found out Thom was a gleeman? He must have felt like such a ____.
T C
183. Freelancer
Fiddler@175

Mat Spanks Joline, the Green, when they are upset that one of the sul'dam finally channels, Mat tries to break up the discipline session, everyone channels at Mat, and Joline finally whacks him, prompting the most awesome one-liner in all of WoT:
"Now, that killed the goat."
Mat never lays a hand on Nynaeve. Nobody does but Lan. And Moghedien.


@179
Call me a whiny bitch
A comment which will draw no arguments, very much out of character.
T C
184. Freelancer
So it is now a GfI_roll? (A modernized Lou Rawls rendition. Lou is always great, but improv syncopation of a bossa nova loses a tiny bit)

@182

Not half as surprised as Thom was to find out he was General Merrilin representing the White Tower.
Sydo Zandstra
185. Fiddler
@Freelancer

I'm pretty sure Mat is spanking Nynaeve too, in ACoS.

No wishful thinking. (I lie, it is... :D )

It's the conclusion of the whole Mat being frustrated because he saved their butts in Tear plot arc. And another yay moment for Birgitte there...



If I'm wrong, have a beer on my account. ;)
Nastinka
186. RobMRobM
Fiddler@185. I think it's "Miller Time" for Freelancer. I recall Nyn having a blustery apology after Birgitte prods her and Elayne but none of the "S" word. My re-read is recent (less than a month ago) so ...good luck at finding contrary textual proof. Rob
Richard Fife
187. R.Fife
hmm, I think the admins got a little angry at AlreadyMad's overly long names that were breaking the "recent comments" column.

Perhaps you should start abbreviating A.M.W. to save some space?
Pablo Defendini
188. pablodefendini
Indeed, the original comment 186 (alreadymadwhenblahblahblah) was deleted. S/He was warned, s/he ignored the warning, s/he was deleted. Try again.
Nastinka
189. alreadymadwithtruncatedname
Now I have to repost...

odigity @179
I thought Falme was more along the lines of Seattle. Further north.

Fiddler @185
No, Mat never got to spank Nynaeve when she kicked him because she hid behind Elayne. Close call though. Even Egwene wouldn't have stopped him.

R.Fife @187
Aaaargghh! If they have thing against long names they should put string length limits like they used to with DOS.
James Jones
190. jamesedjones
189 Alreadymadwhenthesystembroke

String limits? Then how would you break the system?

They can't do that. That would be simple and efficient.
Nastinka
191. toryx
odigity @ 182.

If it helps any, I understand what you mean. I'd have felt the same way. It's kind of like driving to the grocery store for groceries, driving across town to have lunch, and then realizing you have to go all the way back to the plaza the grocery store is in to pick up the dry cleaning.

But on, like, a much larger scale.
Nastinka
192. alreadymadwithtruncatedname
I'm sure they never realized, what with Nynaeve sicking up all the time.
Andrew Lovsness
193. drewlovs
ogdity @ 20:

Hey, I got a question for Leigh. Everyone's loving the re-read, but how about you? Is this fun, work, or something in between?

Yes.

LOL!!

I came late to the discussion, and wasn't going to say anything...but I knew EXACTLY what Leigh meant when she said this!!
Nastinka
194. Rand al'Todd
Freelancer @172

Re: The Girl from Ipanema,
Interestingly, even after being acknowledged by the songwriter as the girl from Ipanema, when the woman used the song's title as the name of a fashion boutique in 2001, the author sued her for copyright infringement.

I was going to say that enough time(39 years from 1962 to 2001)dims unrequited love, especially when $$$ are at risk.

However, per Wiki, it was "the song's copyright owners (heirs of their composer father)" who did the suing.

To get back on topic with the rest of the thread, I guess their appreciation of her boobs (and other features - tall, tan, young, lovely - or whatever the vocabulary is in the original Portugese) did not match Daddy's.
Galen Brinn
195. GatheringStorm
"sick up". It's an interesting description. For some reason, it reminds me of when my little boy gets sick and says "I don't want it to come out the nose!", with "nose" being said "no-ose" in a decent into tears.
Antoni Ivanov
196. tonka
179.odigity

I think the modern world has spoiled you and all us actually.We can get to the oposite side of the world for less than a day. Having to do what you descibe had been something normal for the middle ages and Randland without Traveling.
I'd completely understood if Ny or Elayne has to do that now , when they've been traveling for almost an year. I think traveling can even more spoiling that a airplane :o Imagine being able to go wherever you wish in a heartbeat and free. Hmm nice, isn't
Ofer Nave
197. odigity
toryx@191:
odigity @ 182.

If it helps any, I understand what you mean.


It does.
James Jones
198. jamesedjones
179 Odigity

I think you have a really good point. But it all comes back to RJ's purpose. Look at the lesson Nyneave learned here: She uses it to drop Lan off at the edge of the map, and then takes a few steps through 1-2 dozen gateways, and is back with Rand and Cadbury before dinner.
Alice Arneson
199. Wetlandernw
RobM: My apologies for the tune cootie. I should have thought that there might be those who know the words, for whom reading the name would be enough to get it stuck. Very very very very sorry. Would "spam" help? ;)
Nastinka
200. alreadymadwhenLanwasduped
Rand al'Todd @194
No, not after so many years.

jamesedjones @198
Forgive me for being dense, but what lesson was that, exactly? If it was all about geography, I'm pretty sure Nynaeve consulted a lot of maps before ditching Lan at Land's End.
James Jones
201. jamesedjones
200 AlreadymadbeforeLeigh'sfirstpost

I believe it was the lesson that she did not want to be the one riding across the whole map of Randland, but the time it takes to ride across the entire thing can be quite useful when you want to set someone up with an army of followers.
Nastinka
202. alreadymadwhenLangotpunk'd
Ok. That's nuts alright. Typical Nynaeve.
Nastinka
203. Master Al'Thor
Beleated Happy B'day wishes....And mucho thanks for the female view of the series. I am serious about that. I know a few women who have read the series but they never have put it in the perspective that you have. It is very insightful.

One request. In your always awsome commentary can you give us a little more Louisiana flavor. I just happen to like it. You know mo'Gambit, less New Yorker. Just a small request.

By the way the obscure movie reference is one of my wife's favorites.
James Jones
204. jamesedjones
202 Alittleannoyedbythevaguenessofsomeoftheattemptedhumor

No doubt. :P
Sydo Zandstra
205. Fiddler
189, Alreadymadwithwhatevername

No, Mat never got to spank Nynaeve when she kicked him because she hid behind Elayne. Close call though. Even Egwene wouldn't have stopped him.

True. I guess my imagination ran ahead of me again. :D
Blake Engholm
206. UncrownedKing
I just want to comment on the hilarity of Already's name changes. I'm sitting here gigglin to my self... good stuff.

I missed the name which got banned.
James Jones
207. jamesedjones
206 uncrownedking

OMG! Thank you for bringing that up!

So, what was the name? Alreadymad could post it in a comment...
Richard Fife
208. R.Fife
AlreadyMadWhenNynaeveAlmostGotSpanked was what got deleted, iirc
Blake Engholm
210. UncrownedKing
Ahh I see. And it got deleted because it was too long? Or,was it because this whole site is against spanking people who deserve to be spanked. Over and Over and Over and Over.....grr
Sydo Zandstra
211. Fiddler
Frankly, I see no reason why that should be deleted. Hope it wasn't because my Mat spanking Nynaeve discussion...
Nastinka
212. alreadymadwhennamegotdinged
R.Fife has it right, I think.

We aim to please. :P
Richard Fife
213. R.Fife
Not that I speak for anyone, but as I said, I think it was because the name was kinda breaking the "recent comments" column on the left. It doesn't word-wrap long names, so his name was bleeding into the central content and making it kinda hard to read stuff.

Amazed there isn't any twitching

You know, you could just make a user account "AlreadyMadWhen" and just put the rest as the first line of whatever reply.
Sydo Zandstra
214. Fiddler
Was this version that much longer than his previous ones? This problem should have been shown earlier...
Blake Engholm
215. UnCrownedKingSpankedNyn
AlreadyFightingTordotComWhenLeighPostedThis


Fight On!!

-The new and improved UCK
James Jones
216. jamesedjones
213 R.Fife (edited)

It would be fast and efficient. So, clearly, we can't do that.

But it also wouldn't be nearly as funny the first time you catch it. :)
Torie Atkinson
217. Torie
Nah, has nothing to do with the content--the name is just too long and it breaks our page layout.
Richard Fife
218. R.Fife
Yeah... content. Not like they didn't just hold that "naughty dystopian pun" contest or anything. I work with sailors and some of those entries made me blush.
Herb Schaltegger
220. LameLefty
I'm jonesing for Leigh's next post and this meta-discussion of Tor.com usernames is not nearly as entertaining to the rest of us as it is for the participants, I don' think.

*twitch, drool*
Richard Fife
221. R.Fife
actually, I think its a meta-meta-discussion, of which we are now discussion, so meta-cubed, baby!
James Jones
222. jamesedjones
220 Lefty

Sorry about that. Um... so how's the weather?
Maggie M
223. Eswana
Alreadymad.....

reading through your various aliases has brought laughter to an otherwise dreary Monday. So thanks!!

And yes, it's that time again.

::twitch::
Michael Catapano
224. hoping
Alreadymadbeforethetwitchingstarted
Nastinka
226. CalaLily
And the WOTians, suffering from severe withdrawal, sank into madness before the very eyes of the Tor.com staff. Desperate, Mr. Defendini raced to Leigh. "Quickly!" he cried, hair in wild disarray. "They're eating their keyboards! You must. Type. Faster!!!"
Chris Greenland
227. greenland
Holy cow these comments stack up...

LynnOH @114: i feel she makes the "right" decision even when that is difficult for her.

Yeah, definitely. I'm not saying there's no character growth, I just get frustrated that it tends to be steadily upwards, with some leveling off here and there, when I'd rather see more wild ups and downs. (It seems like I'll be getting my wish with Rand soon, but did it have to take 12 books to get there?) It also feels weird when the characters remain relatively stable against a world that is going through such upheaval.

alreadymadwhen...@135: Perhaps that's why story arcs involving the girls are so annoying. Their stubborn arrogance and foolhardiness perpetually gets them into trouble and yet since they always either luck out or are rescued by their much abused menfolk (to whom they are always patently ungrateful), they never really learn their lesson.

That precedent is certainly hammered in the early books, although I think Jordan himself comes to make fun of it later when Nynaeve et al. become more self-reliant while Mat misses the memo completely and still thinks they need rescuing.

It makes me wonder if character is getting sacrificed for plot here, though. Would we have gotten to see their arrogance go wildly awry if those character weren't needed hale and whole over yonder in the next book in order to save the day?

Fiddler@175: Remember when she realizes that she caused riots when Masema's and Galad's forces are fighting to secure the boat for her and Elayne in Samara (FOH ch 47: The Price of a Ship).

I didn't, actually. Thank you for pointing out the chapter.
Nastinka
228. hummingbird
I actually look forward to alreadymad's names. Ive gotten to the point where I have to scan the comments first because they have gotten so numerous (and not always about the book - not that it is bad, because this is a community forum) and I have so much reading to do for school (damn grad school) that I just cant always wade through it all. BUT I do stop to notice all the names. Makes my day.

I like the idea of just using alreadymad as the user name and then you can be as loquacious as you want for the rest of the name.
Elroy Skimms
229. elroyskimms
UncrownedKing @ 210

Or,was it because this whole site is against spanking people who deserve to be spanked. Over and Over and Over and Over.....


For all of these spanking references, I must say I am stunned (and slightly appalled) by the complete lack of references to Castle Anthrax. Or did I miss them when I skimmed over some of the threads (*cough* 800+ posts)?

-E
T C
230. Freelancer
Alreadymad's various and sundry names had been causing trouble off and on with the Recent Comments column for some time. I figured that the staff would have to notice, so I never bothered to say, but anytime the frames overlapped weirdly it was because of a non-wordwrap flaw.

And definitely not ::twitch:: twitching. Errr, hmm...

Rand al'Todd@194

That is correct, thank you. Yes, both of the original composers are gone, it was their descendants who took exception to Ms Pinheiro's use of the title.
Nastinka
231. alreadymadwhilewaitingforpost
Fiddler @214
Actually the site was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes it would actually truncate my handle and just put an ellipsis (that's the dot dot dot). Sometimes it would somehow reach into the other reality that was the next column.

Eswana @223
We aim to please :)

greenland @227
It's actually a good thing that Mat missed the memo completely because the girls never actually learn their lesson. They become more self-reliant, yes. But not necessarily more careful. Even when she finally becomes queen, Elayne never actually learns that not everything can be handled with the nose. And the chin. Though she did finally thank Mat and his Band before hightailing out of Tanchico. Nynaeve just got weird when she got married.
Galen Brinn
232. GatheringStorm
So, we all broke Tor with 800+ comments a few weeks ago and now alreadymadwhen... breaks it with usernames. Nice ;)
kori lockwood
233. kori
alreadymadwhen.... the names they crack me up.

That killed the goat. I forgot all about that line it still makes me laugh. I'm kind of wanting to use it in every day speech now. What is it with this series and goats? one of my favorite curses is Masma and "milk drinking goat herder" or the like.
Nastinka
234. Blinkers
"her more typical reaction is to fly into a rage and generally act like an armed five-year-old"

And thus the reason why Perrin felt she needed to be spanked back in the Ways! You yourself have now come right out and given the reasoning behind that. Do you get it now? 2+2=4 and all that? Can you finally bring yourself to accept SPANKING in the world of WoT?
O C-P
235. Baldsilver
"Perrin does make the typical mistake here of assuming his enemy is dead without seeing the body, which as we all know is a gross violation of the Narrative Causality Code, which clearly states that if a character assumes an effect without witnessing it, the Irony Subclause practically demands that it turn out not to be so."

unbelievably on target!
Nastinka
239. Divil The Bother
A few comments (having read through the 235 posts I think I'm entitled!).

On Nynaeve. It's interesting that she is the only female channeler Rand trusts completely. Yes she has flaws but her loyalty is to emond's fielders first. Unlike Egwene who is the opposite - she becomes absolutely loyal to the latest culture she's immersed in and jettisons everyone in her past life in favour of new people she barely knows.

TAR - a bit out there as a literary concept - it's just too useful to be realistic. And just in case that isn't enough we also have "need". Come on!

Faile - always seems the most shallow and self centred of all the characters - she wants what she wants and likes to take advantage of the naiive two rivers folk to get it and then train them up to be servants for her. RJ seems to want something better for her so you have other characters being really impressed with her for no apparent reason eg Cha faile and then the ridiculous fealty swearing in the Shaido camp.
Nastinka
241. BenW
I want to say that I will hold open a door for anyone, man or woman, if I happen to be at the door at the same time as them. However, I can't help but worry a little that a woman might think I am being condescending instead of being nice.

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