May 1 2009 3:09pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Shadow Rising, Part 14

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to another Wheel of Time Re-read post! Today we are covering Chapters 39-41 of The Shadow Rising, whee!

Previous entries, as always, can be found here. Spoilers, also as always, apply.

A scheduling note before we begin: it turns out that this weekend marks a significant date in my inexorable progress toward senility, decrepitude, and really bad fashion choices, so to celebrate and/or console myself, I am giving myself a wee little holiday from blogging. Ergo, there will be no Re-read entry this Monday; we will resume on our regular schedule on Wednesday.

I’d apologize for this, but I’m the one on the fast track to Bermuda shorts and shirts with, like, sequined parrots or some such travesty on them, here. Just think of the horror I’m enduring, and your trials will seem so much lighter in comparison. This is just one of the many services I am happy to provide, along with excessive italicizing. Naturally.

So, there’s that. And now there’s this!

Chapter 39: A Cup of Wine

What Happens
Elayne joins Nynaeve, Jorin and Coine on deck as they prepare to disembark at Tanchico. She notes Juilin and Thom standing off to the side looking sullen, and recalls that Nynaeve had been right about the two of them trying to take over the mission once they found out it involved the Black Ajah; Nynaeve had had to threaten to kick them off the ship before they would leave off. Coine is telling Nynaeve that she intends to spread the word about the Coramoor as soon as Toram finishes his trading. She and Jorin trade fond farewells with Elayne and Nynaeve, and Elayne thinks she is going to miss Jorin. As they leave the ship, Thom and Juilin immediately bracket the two women and look dangerous; Nynaeve purses her lips, but Elayne looks at the number of shifty types lurking on the docks and thinks they have the right idea. Then they are accosted by a man who turns out to be Bayle Domon, who is amazed to see them alive, after he left them in Falme. Nynaeve and Elayne are rather cool to him, and Domon offers to help them find lodging as a way to pay off his debt to them. Nynaeve agrees, and introduces him to Thom and Juilin; Domon and Juilin dislike each other instantly. As they walk Domon tells them all about his success in the smuggling business, which make Juilin like him even less.

“I do no believe it will last much longer though,” Domon said when the Tanchicans had passed. “Things do be even worse in Arad Doman than here, and it do be bad enough here. Perhaps the Lord Dragon does no Break the World yet, but he did break Arad Doman and Tarabon.”

Elayne watches the crowds of hopeless, gaunt-looking people in the streets and wonders where their king is, and why he isn’t doing anything to help them. Domon takes them to an inn called the Three Plum Court, where the innkeeper Rendra’s close resemblance to Liandrin makes both Nynaeve and Elayne start. Rendra greets Domon warmly and gives them rooms and a private dining room. At supper, Elayne cannot eat, thinking of all the hungry people outside, and Nynaeve asks Rendra if there is somewhere she can donate for them. Rendra says she could give to Domon’s soup kitchen; Domon mutters that it be less than paying taxes. After Rendra leaves, Nynaeve tells Domon that they could use his help; when he asks suspiciously for what, she casually tells him that the Black Ajah may be in Tanchico, and they have need of eyes and ears to help find them. Domon gapes, and looks to Juilin and Thom for confirmation, which irritates both Elayne and Nynaeve, and says maybe it’s time for him to go back to Illian. Nynaeve replies that he might not find Illian particularly congenial, as it’s currently being ruled by Sammael. Domon’s eyes bulge, and Nynaeve continues that he can run, but there are no safe places left, and would it not be better if he fought back like a man?

Nynaeve was being too hard; she always had to bully people. Elayne smiled and leaned over to put a hand on Domon’s arm. “We do not mean to browbeat you, Master Domon, but we truly may need your help. I know you for a brave man, else you would not have waited for us as long as you did at Falme. We will be most grateful.”

“You do this very well,” Domon muttered. “One with an ox driver’s stick, the other with a queen’s honey. Oh, very well. I will help as I can. But I will no promise to remain for another Falme.”

Juilin and Thom proceed to interrogate Domon about the situation in Tanchico, Thom concerning himself with the high-end nobility/politics side of things and Juilin with the criminal underworld element, though Juilin and Domon refuse to speak directly to each other, instead funneling everything through Thom. Afterwards Nynaeve writes down a description of each of the Black sisters for Domon, which he takes uneasily. He and Juilin both leave in quick succession, and Nynaeve soon retires to nurse her post-seafaring stomach issues, leaving Elayne to follow Thom to the common room to watch him perform. She revels in the novel sensation of sitting in an inn with commoners, sipping wine and watching a gleeman perform. A handsome young serving man keeps refilling her cup, and as she gets drunker she becomes sure that she’s seen Thom perform before. When he finally leaves the common room, she follows, unsteadily, and knocks on his door; when he opens it she grabs one of his mustaches, and says she remembers sitting on his knee and pulling his mustache, and her mother leaning over his shoulder and laughing. Thom tries to get her to go to bed, but she demands explanations, and reluctantly Thom tells her he used to be Morgase’s Court-bard. She says he was Morgase’s lover, too, wasn’t he, and his flinch confirms it. She says she knew about Gareth Bryne, but now there was Thom, and this Gaebril Mat told her about, and is on her way to calling her mother a slut when Thom slaps her.

“You are a little girl with a skinful of wine throwing a temper tantrum,” he snapped. “And if I ever hear you say anything like that about Morgase again, drunk or sober, I’ll put you over my knee however you channel! Morgase is a fine woman, as good as any there is!”

“Is she?” Her voice quavered, and she realized she was crying. “Then why did she—? Why—?” Somehow she had her face buried against his coat, and he was smoothing her hair.

“Because it is lonely being a queen,” he said softly. “Because most men attracted to a queen see power, not a woman. I saw a woman, and she knew it. I suppose Bryne saw the same in her, and this Gaebril, too. You have to understand, child. Everyone wants someone in their life, someone who cares for them, someone they can care for. Even a queen.”

He sends her to bed, saying hopefully she will forget all this by morning. She stumbles back to her and Nynaeve’s room, and talks nonsense to Nynaeve, who leads her solicitously over to a bucket by the washstand and then shoves her head in it, twice. Elayne then throws up, and after letting her recover a bit (not without acid commentary) Nynaeve asks if she can stay awake to keep watch while Nynaeve goes to Tel’aran’rhiod to look for Egwene. Elayne assures her she can stay awake; Nynaeve is skeptical, but goes ahead anyway.

Nynaeve circles the empty Heart of the Stone, irritated at how stray thoughts of Lan here can make her clothes change most inappropriately, and worries about how they have not seen Egwene since she disappeared so abruptly out of the Stone. She calls for Egwene, uneasy at the silence, and thinks that Egwene was not here, and that Elayne had said something about Egwene being in the waste, at Rhuidean. She takes a step and is suddenly in the Waste, and sees a fogbank in the valley below with towers rising out of it. Then she notices a man in a blue coat walking along the edge of the fog, occasionally poking at it; Nynaeve thinks it looks like his hand will not go through.

“You must get away from here,” a woman’s voice said urgently. “If that one sees you, you are dead, or worse.”

Nynaeve whirls to see a woman with a long golden braid and silver bow. “Birgitte?” Nynaeve asks incredulously, and then says that’s impossible. The woman repeats that she must go, and draws her bow as if to shoot Nynaeve. Nynaeve flees, somehow ending up in Emond’s Field, where she seems to see a great shadow lying across the village. Then she sees Birgitte ducking around a corner and chases her, shouting for her to come back or else. She rounds the corner and sees, instead of Birgitte, a man striding toward her.

Her breath caught. Lan. No, but he had the same shape to his face, the same eyes. Halting, he raised his bow and shot. At her. Screaming, she threw herself aside trying to claw her way awake.

Elayne jumps up as Nynaeve screams and sits up. Nynaeve tells her what happened, and examines a shallow slash on her arm, saying the arrow would have gone through her heart if she hadn’t jumped. As Elayne doctors the cut, Nynaeve tells her about Birgitte too; Elayne tries to discuss it intelligently, but is still drunk and about to pass out, and Nynaeve sends them both to bed. The next morning an extremely hungover Elayne meets Thom in the common room and lies to him that she doesn’t remember anything after listening to him perform the night before, to Thom’s relief. Nynaeve joins them as Juilin returns from being out all night talking with thieves; he tells them that he talked to two men who say they’ve seen a woman who fits the description of Rianna Andomeran, and one of them joked he couldn’t put an age to her. Nynaeve chastises him for going too fast, and Juilin flushes and insists that he is being careful. He and Thom trade barbs over which one of them is going to find the Black Ajah first, and Elayne wonders if Thom and Domon will get in a fistfight just to complete the circle. Nynaeve observes dryly that she and Elayne might also stand a chance of finding them. Thom and Juilin immediately join forces to try and talk them out of leaving the inn, and Juilin brings up the point that the Black Ajah know Elayne and Nynaeve’s faces. To Elayne’s surprise, Nynaeve agrees that this is a problem, but then Rendra enters with breakfast, and tells Nynaeve that it will be no problem to find the clothes for her and Elayne to disguise them. Nynaeve discusses the particulars with Rendra, blithely ignoring Thom and Juilin, and Elayne abruptly remembers that if the Black Ajah are in Tanchico, then that means so is whatever is a danger to Rand, and loses her appetite.

Bye, only nice Sea Folk we ever meet! Okay, not really. But pretty close.

Juilin’s kind of a funny character. He’s all primly disapproving about Domon being a smuggler, and law-breaking in general, and yet seems to hang out/get along with criminals more often than he does with ordinary folk. I don’t think this is hypocrisy, as such, but more like the standard brand of self-delusion that so many characters in WOT seem afflicted with (Nynaeve and The Boys being particularly egregious examples of this). Jordan seemed to be generally of the opinion that most people don’t know themselves very well, and... well, there’s a pretty strong argument to be made for that position, actually.

Again, I may be alone here but I have always gotten a huge kick out of Nynaeve and Elayne’s entirely-by-accident good cop/bad cop routine, which Domon sums up perfectly in the quote above. They should have a theme song and a dramatic voiceover and stuff. No, not really.

This is mostly an Elayne-centric chapter, and an interesting example of how different people get different things out of the same chunk of character development. Elayne’s POV here makes me very sympathetic towards her, but other people have cited her remarks about “ooh, look, the common people!” and her rushing to the conclusion that her mother is a tramp to be evidence that she’s a snotty brat. And I certainly grant that that might be a valid way to read it, but I personally don’t get that out of this.

I see a young woman who is spoiled, yes, but not spoiled, if you get my meaning, and is doing that teenager/young adult thing of trying to work out where in the world she fits, and discovering that her parent is not in fact a blameless peerless paragon of humanity, queen or no, and being very angry over that. Oh, and getting really stupidly drunk. The reader who is without embarrassing teenage rebellion memories may cast the first stone, is all I’m saying.

(Drunkenness, by the way, is one of the greatest plot-advancing devices ever invented, which I bet is a compliment it doesn’t get that often.)

Now here’s a possibly flammable conundrum for you guys to have fun with: this is the second chapter in TSR so far to feature the S-word (the act, not the actual word). So speculate, if you dare, on why Thom’s threat of it to Elayne did not particularly bother me, while the other made me go up in flames. I’m interested to see if y’all hit on it.

(Actually, this might be the third instance in TSR, depending on what you think happened between Rhuarc and Berelain during his “talk” with her. That one I ain’t touching with a ten-foot pole.)

Nynaeve’s bit here is really only noteworthy in that we get another piece of the Luc/Isam/Slayer puzzle in it, and Birgitte’s first appearance to Our Heroes where she is recognized as such. Which, yeah, are both very noteworthy, but are much better to talk about later.

I can’t decide whether to be amused or appalled at Nynaeve’s “remedy” for Elayne’s drunkenness. Let’s just say I’m really glad no one ever tried to do that to me (and they should be glad they didn’t either, as a punch to the mouth often offends). But at the same time, it’s funny when it happens to other people. Mmm, pie.

Chapter 40: Hunter of Trollocs

What Happens
Six days after Verin’s storm hid his party from the pursuing Whitecloaks, Perrin sits on the ground under the apple trees and gazes at the fourteen new graves added to the Aybara burial grounds. He smells Dannil coming up behind him and asks what he wants without looking, ignoring Dannil’s start of surprise; he no longer cares if they find his abilities strange. Dannil tells him Lady Faile and Lord Luc have arrived, and Perrin gets up and heads back to camp, where there are over fifty young men now, all of them currently gaping at Faile and Luc in their midst.

Luc stood idly flipping the reins of a tall black stallion, the very pose of indolent, red-coated arrogance, cold blue eyes ignoring the men around him. The man’s smell stood out among the others, cold and separate, too, almost as if he had nothing in common with the men around him, not even humanity.

Faile comes over to him, and he hugs her, saying he missed her, and she says he looks tired. She tells him everyone is in Emond’s Field now, including the Aes Sedai, Bain and Chiad, and Loial, who caused quite a sensation, and that they are ready to send the Whitecloaks packing. She also says Loial told her to tell Perrin that Alanna disappeared twice, and the second time Ihvon seemed surprised she was gone. Perrin says that Verin said he shouldn’t trust Alanna, but then he doesn’t know if he can trust Verin. Perrin doesn’t like that Luc knows about the Aiel; when Faile asks why, he tells her that he’s talked to the farmers, and Luc was at five of the farmsteads the day of or the day before they were attacked by Trollocs. Faile shakes her head.

“Perrin, the man’s an arrogant fool in some ways—I hear he’s hinted at a claim to one of the Borderland thrones, for all he told us he’s from Murandy—but you cannot really believe he is a Darkfriend.”

She continues in amazement that there are hundreds of people at Emond’s Field now, all responding to Perrin Goldeneyes’ warnings. He gasps “Perrin who?” and Faile laughs and says the word has spread far, and they will tell tales in the Two Rivers for a thousand years about Perrin Goldeneyes, Hunter of Trollocs. Perrin thinks there hadn’t been much to justify the title so far; he and his followers had only found and killed two packs of Trollocs before all trace of them seemed to disappear. Luc is talking to the men now, and as Perrin approaches, Kenley Ahan tells him Luc is saying they should all go back to Emond’s Field now, to join with the force there; Wil concurs, pointing out that they haven’t seen hide nor hair of Trollocs for days. Maybe they’re all dead already. There are mutters of agreement, and Luc smoothly adds that he does not intend to sow dissension, but there are heroes’ welcomes waiting for them at home. Perrin says flatly anyone who wants to leave is welcome to go, but he doesn’t think the job’s done yet. The others look at their boots, but no one leaves. Luc begins bringing up how the Whitecloaks want to hang them all as outlaws, but is interrupted by Gaul, who trades stony stares with Luc and tells Perrin he’s found a company of thirty Trollocs moving up the Waterwood.

“Well, Wil?” Perrin said. “Do you want to go to Emond’s Field? You can shave, and maybe find a girl to kiss while these Trollocs have supper tonight.”

Wil flushed a dark red. “I will be wherever you are tonight, Aybara,” he said in a hard voice.

The others all agree, and Perrin invites Luc to accompany them, but Luc demurs, saying he must look to the defenses of the village. He holds out a hand to Faile, but she tells him she will stay with Perrin. Luc murmurs “a pity” and shrugs, and wishes “Master Goldeneyes” luck before he leaves. They break camp and move out, and Faile observes that he truly does not trust Luc; he answers that he trusts her and his bow and his axe, and she looks sad and pleased both. Gaul leads them to where the Trollocs should emerge, and they set up an ambush. They wait for over an hour, and suddenly the wind changes and Perrin catches Trolloc scent from behind them. He yells a warning just as the Trollocs attack, and gets off one shot before taking a Trolloc arrow in his side. In agony, Perrin manages to snap off the shaft, pulls his axe and charges, howling.

For Adora. For Deselle. “My mother!” he screamed. “Burn you! My mother!”

He cuts down the Trollocs before him, realizes he is alone, and shouts for the men to rally to him. He screams for Faile, and a Fade appears and tells him she was delicious. Perrin howls and attacks, but his wound is slowing him down, and right as the Myrddraal is about to kill him Ihvon appears out of nowhere and beheads the Fade from behind. Ihvon tells Perrin calmly that Alanna had sent him to find Perrin, and there are perhaps a hundred Trollocs out there. Perrin gapes at him, but shouts again for the Two Rivers men to rally. Finally they begin to appear, bloodied and shocked, and the Aiel and Faile soon follow; Gaul remarks that the Trollocs did not come as expected. Faile immediately starts examining Perrin’s wound while Perrin does a head count and realizes twenty-seven men are missing. Ban al’Seen tells him the rest are dead. Perrin asks Ihvon if the Trollocs are likely to attack again, but the Warder is not sure. Faile makes Perrin get up on Stepper, and the company shambles painfully off, only Ihvon and the Aiel (and Faile) in any condition to fight, but the illusion appears to be enough to keep the Trollocs from engaging. Perrin occupies himself by reciting the names of the missing men in his head, berating himself for his pride and stupidity. Then they hear music ahead of them.

It’s a measure of how far gone Perrin is at this point that he’s being all blasé about people knowing he’s Not Normal. This, of course, eventually works to his advantage. Nothing like having semi-superpowers to make people think you deserve a title. People are funny that way.

Speaking of which, even though I know this is all by authorial fiat and it’s at least a little bit of a cliché of the genre, I do enjoy watching Our Heroes fall ass-backwards into being brilliant leaders. Both sets of trios, really, even though the girls don’t resist it the way the boys do once it happens (well, the way Mat and Perrin do; Rand’s pretty much already resigned to the deal by this point). It may not be terribly realistic, but then it’s not like we’re all here reading epic fantasy for its documentarial attributes. If I wanted reality, I could go outside and catch swine flu.

*knocks on wood*

Luc: Grr. I hate moles. I’m now finding myself wanting to smack Gaul, of all people, for giving intel to Perrin in front of him, even though that’s completely unreasonable of me. I get so antsy whenever an author puts the reader in a position to know that one character is an utter snake in the grass, and the other characters are just blithely all MY PLANS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM and you just know the whole thing is going straight to hell and there’s nothing you can do. Which is something Jordan does fairly frequently, I might add. Grr, argh.

It’s kind of hilarious, though, that Luc/Isam is apparently still so bitter about his mom’s failed plot to take the Malkieri throne that he has to keep bringing it up, even when it might blow his cover. These villains and their entitlement issues, I swear. (Literally, in this case. Heh.)

Alanna: do we ever find out what she was supposed to be up to? I mean, I’m guessing she was at the very least seriously contemplating bonding Perrin against his will (until she decided to go after the grand prize, evidently), but I’m not sure we ever get an explanation of what her disappearances were all about, unless we’re supposed to infer that she was out spying on Perrin and, like, admiring his shoulders or whatever, I have no idea. I heart Verin, but I do kind of fault her a little for not realizing just how much Owein’s death had evidently screwed Alanna up. Girl needs therapy, is all I’m saying.

Chapter 41: Among the Tuatha’an

What Happens
Perrin’s company soon comes upon a circle of garishly colored wagons, and Perrin knows they are Tinkers. Gaul says stiffly that he will sleep elsewhere, and leaves; Bain and Chiad try to convince Faile in undertones to come with them and not stay with the “Lost Ones”, but Faile refuses, and finally the Aiel women leave. Perrin hears Chiad suggesting to Bain as they head off that they get Gaul to play some game called Maiden’s Kiss. Silence falls in the Tinker camp as the party approaches, and finally a man steps forward and tells them they are welcome to the fire, and asks if they know the song. Perrin recognizes Raen, and wonders what the odds are that of all the Tinker bands in the world, the one he’s visited before comes to the Two Rivers; he dislikes coincidences.

He could not manage the bow, but he remembered the ritual. “Your welcome warms my spirit, Raen, as your fires warm the flesh, but I do not know the song.” Faile and Ihvon gave him startled looks, but no more than did the Two Rivers men. Judging by the mutters he heard from Ban and Tell and others, he had just given them something else to talk about.

Raen replies that they seek still, then, and welcomes them into camp. He looks at Perrin, and recognizes him by his eyes. Ila comes up and recognizes him too, and asks after Elyas; Perrin replies he hasn’t seen Elyas in a long time. The Tinkers assist the wounded men into the camp, and as Ihvon helps Perrin down from his horse, Perrin tells Raen he shouldn’t be here, and that he should take his people to Emond’s Field. Raen looks surprised at his own hesitation, but then says he cannot; they would not be welcome there, and anyway there is violence everywhere these days. He worries that they must find the song soon, else they never will.

“You will find the song,” Perrin said quietly. Maybe they abhorred violence too much for a ta’veren to overcome; maybe even a ta’veren could not fight the Way of the Leaf. It had seemed attractive to him once, too. “I truly hope that you will.”

They get Perrin inside Raen’s wagon; Ihvon tells him quietly that anyone can be surprised, and not to take it too much to heart. Perrin is not comforted by this. Ila examines the wound and says she is uneasy about removing it, and Ihvon comments that Trollocs arrows are barbed. Ila kicks him and Raen out of the wagon, and tells Faile worriedly that she is not competent to remove a barbed arrow. They discuss what to do about the wound, and Perrin irritably reminds them that he’s right there; they ignore him and go right on. They get his shirt and coat off and treat the wound as best they can; Ila mourns that once she thought Perrin would come to the Way of the Leaf, but it seems not, now. Faile replies gently that the Way is not for everyone, but Ila disagrees sadly, and leaves. Perrin tells Faile that he screwed up, and she argues that he did what seemed right at the time, and it’s not his fault that circumstances changed. Perrin thinks that all he did was get twenty-seven men killed, and Faile counters that all the men would have died if Perrin had not held them together.

Sighing, she sat back down again. “Perrin, my father says a general can take care of the living or weep for the dead, but he cannot do both.”

Perrin continues to berate himself, and Faile gets angry and demands to know if the Trollocs are going to stop being vile and killing people because he thinks he’s not good enough, and says her father also says the worst thing a general can do is desert his men. They are interrupted at this point by Aram, who has come in to smile smarmily at Faile, disapprove of Perrin’s eyes, proof that he followed Elyas’s violent ways to run with the wolves, and to ask where Egwene is. Perrin growls that Egwene is Aes Sedai now, and would rip Aram’s heart out with the Power if he asked her to dance, and kicks him out. Perrin mutters that Aram smiles too much, and Faile chokes down a laugh, and offers Perrin the powder Ila left to help him sleep.

“I don’t want any powder,” he said. “Faile, who is your father?”

Her back went very stiff. After a moment she turned with the mug in both hands and an unreadable look in her tilted eyes. Another minute passed before she said, “My father is Davram of House Bashere, Lord of Bashere, Tyr and Sidona, Guardian of the Blightborder, Defender of the Heartland, Marshal-General to Queen Tenobia of Saldaea. And her uncle.”

Perrin is stunned, and asks what was all the stuff about her father being a fur or ice pepper merchant, and so on; Faile replies lamely that technically it’s true, since all those things are produced on his lands. She explains that when her father took her younger brother to the Border, it was too much for her, even though girls are not taught warfare in Saldaea, so when she heard about the Hunt for the Horn, she left. Perrin supposes she is really the Lady Bashere, or some such, and asks how she came to like a common blacksmith.

“The word is ‘love,’ Perrin Aybara.” The firmness of her voice was at sharp odds with the gentle way that the cloth moved on his face. “And you are not such a common blacksmith, I think.” The cloth paused. “Perrin, what did that fellow mean about running with wolves? Raen mentioned this Elyas, too.”

For a moment he was frozen, unbreathing. Yet he had just berated her for keeping secrets from him. It was what he got for being hasty and angry. Swing a hammer in haste, and you usually hit your own thumb. He exhaled slowly, and told her.

He tells her everything about the wolves, including his fears about losing his hold on humanity. He waits for her to flinch away from him, but she calmly remarks that if his hearing is really that sharp she will have to watch what she says around him. Perrin asks whether she heard him correctly, and what her father will think of her taking up with a half-wolf blacksmith. Faile thinks her father will approve; he’s always saying their blood is getting soft.

She gave him a smile fierce enough for any wolf. “Of course, Mother always wanted me to marry a king who splits Trollocs in two with one stroke of his sword. I suppose your axe will suffice, but could you tell her you are the king of the wolves? I don’t think anyone will come forward to dispute your claim to that throne. In truth, the splitting of Trollocs will probably do for Mother, but I truly think she would like the other.”

Perrin stares, and thinks that meeting Trollocs again might possibly be less frightening than meeting her parents. She gives him water, and he splutters as he realizes she’d stirred in the sleeping powder, but Faile is having none of his protests, and forces him to drink it. He tries to mutter imprecations at her, but slides quickly into sleep, and she strokes his forehead.

“Sleep, my wolf king. Sleep.”

Absolutely, hands down, no question my favorite Faile and Perrin scene ever. One of the best scenes in TSR, as well, and probably in the top twenty for the series as a whole. Not least because it features the oh-so-rare occurrence of characters in WOT actually being honest with one another, but mostly because Faile is totally and completely awesome in this chapter. Even in sneaking Perrin drugs.

Her reaction to his revelation about the wolves was perfect, and the one thing about their relationship that tells me they really are meant for each other. Faile when she’s not letting herself be all afflicted with insecurity and jealousy is a fabulous thing to behold. Even though I have to think that Faile had to have at least suspected something of the truth before he told her, because otherwise I think it stretches credulity a little bit that she would have been able to take it so calmly. But still, awesome.

I remember being so relieved that Perrin had finally told someone about the wolves. I mean, plenty of people know, or at least suspect, what Perrin’s deal is, but now he finally has someone he can just talk to about it, without worrying about what she’s going to think of him afterwards. Anyone who doesn’t think secrets are a terrible burden has never had to carry one. I can put up with Faile for her Perrin-stress-relief properties alone.

Plus, she gets to give out one of the subtler bits of foreshadowing in the series. Maybe this was not so sharp of me, but until we got that bit of prophecy in KOD it never occurred to me to think of her calling Perrin the King of Wolves way back in TSR was ever going to be anything other than a clever inside joke between the two of them. This seems dumb in retrospect, but, well.

It also makes me wonder, now, if someone is going to dispute Perrin’s claim to that throne. Probably not, but if it happens my money’s on Slayer, with his possible Darkhound connection and wolf-killin’ penchant. This doesn’t quite make sense, but whatever. I don’t have to make sense when I’m doing my once-daily wild theorizing exercises, so nyah!

Speaking of prophecy, lots more hinting here about Perrin’s symbolic connection to the Tinkers and the Way of the Leaf, especially from Ila, and Perrin’s thought that even a ta’veren might not be able to fight the Way of the Leaf. I’m still really interested to see how that plays out, since where we left Perrin at the end of KOD is about as far from the Way of the Leaf as he’s ever been, if I recall correctly.

And that’s all, folks! Have a lovely weekend. Mine will involve martinis. Oh, yes, there will be martinis. Wish me luck, and see you Wednesday!

F Shelley
1. FSS
Well - on the Thom spanking threat: he IS much more of a father figure to her (and she's behaving childishly), as oppsed to Perrin and Faile's relationship, which should be equal. Maybe deep down you find a parent spanking a child a bit more acceptable than spousal abuse...
F Shelley
2. FSS
Oh, and it's cool how Faile names Perrin the Wolf King here. I suppose she's been educated about the Prophesies of the Dragon, and knows the reference. But why she (or anyone else) never tells Perin is a mystery for another day.
John Massey
4. subwoofer
Talkin' about the True Source, Heartstone, taxidermy, and all that good stuff. Leigh- no post on Monday? We're taking this one to 1000. I've been senile- premature- for years now. Welcome to the club. It's great fun.
Dru O'Higgins
5. bellman
I think that's my second favorite Faile/Perrin scene. My personal fave has to be when she makes him mourn his family.
Richard Fife
7. R.Fife
First, cause no one else is saying it yet:

Yeah yeah, Thom S-ing Elayne isn't as crazy since they arent' supposed to be all lovey dovey. Need I remind you that from here through most of tFoH, Elayne is actually going all Electra* Complex on Thom. (He was good enough for mom, he's good enough for me), and he encourages it!

I think Alanna was supposed to be off hiding and crying her little, shrivelled heart out. (OK, that was kinda mean, but I'm a mean rickrolla.)

As to Verin, she probably knows exactly what is going on with Alanna and is all like "Excellent...." She is either documenting the effects of a dead warder, or trying to aim Alanna like a dirty nuke.

And this is why I love Faile.

Let's try and stay on topic for at least the first 200 posts, eh?

@6 Pablo
Sic em!

*editted for correct complex.
Bill Siegel
8. ubxs113
Yeah, I'd have to guess that there's some kind of creepy sexual domination thing with the Perrin spanking thing while Thom was only threatening.
Dru O'Higgins
9. bellman
And happy birthday Leigh, if it's your birthday. Drink many martinis for us.
Deborah Jones
10. NanaD
Leigh are we to assume that your birthday is coming up this weekend? If so, Happy Birthday!
Not to many martini's please. You need a clear head to read 1000 posts.

Just kidding! Mr. Defendini. We promise to be good.
11. JamesEdJones
Happy B-Day, you Hoopy Frood! Great post today. Nuthin' to debate.
Lannis .
12. Lannis
Re: the S word... Not sure if this is your opinion or not, Leigh, but I, personally, think it 's one thing for a character to be threatening to spank, and a whole other issue if one commits the act. The word... not a big deal; but the act... is something to bug me. People bandy words about all the time (in WoT and real life), but Thom was using the phrase to express to Elayne her childish behaviour... Perrin just went and whooped Faile (true, in retaliation of physical attacks, but that is set aside here...). Words have a lot of power, but to act on something threatened (or not, in Perrin's case--he just went ahead and *did*), or to commit the act... is just violence, not language anymore.

Also, it's a case of peers versus parents. Adult/child (Thom/Elayne) versus adult/adult (Perrin/Faile). Treat each other as peers, okay, but slip, and treat a peer as a child? That's adding ugly to the fire...

That's *my* take on it, Leigh, not sure whether it's yours or not...

::shudders at the crazy that's about to leak from commenters::
13. AUgradGSUgradstudent
So just a random comment, kinda. I jumped into re-reading the books myself for about the 7th time in late March and I'm half-way through Fires of Heaven now (I read entirely too much, even on top of all the reading I've had to do for classes as a graduate student in History). I think this is the first time in all the times I've re-read the books that I've made the connection that Thom had Taringail killed. I realized he had killed Galdrian the first time reading the books, but never had picked up on this one. Even when Moiraine comments to him about Morgase being lucky that he died so fortuitously when Taringail had intended Morgase to die and he to be the first king of Andor in her little speech to convince him to help Elayne, I just never made the connection until this time through. I think it finally really hit me with Morgase's reflections in tFoH that she won the throne and consoldiated her power with the support of the House bard, and how Taringail had died in an apparent hunting accident. I always had known she was talking about Thom there, but still. I feel stupid for having read the books so many times and completely missed that.
John Massey
14. subwoofer
That Luc guy again- somebody should put an arrow in him. I love Perrin's reaction when Faile tells him who her dad is. It's like finding out your father-in-law to be is a senator. How do you live up to that? And he is not just any senator, he's going to be THE GUY soon. Bashere is numbered among the top 5 great generals alive. Yay for Rand too. Interesting that Faile managed to keep it under wraps for so long and Perrin finally getting to the bottom of it.

-edit- At 14 since refresh?!!!
15. Zeynep
I am of a mind with FSS here about Thom and Elayne: Elayne is behaving like a six-year old (albeit with a sixteen-year-old's issues) and Thom is a father figure, willingly or unwillingly. There is no domination issues there either, from her to him or from him to her, earlier or later bickering about following "orders" notwithstanding.

"MY PLANS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM:" I'm listening to the audiobook of Crossroads of Twilight right now, and the situation with Egwene and Halima and Egwene's headaches and Aes Sedai murders is really trying, because, see, I really like my nice little MP3 player and the incredibly strong urges to throw it down and stomp on it are therefore unhealthy. Compared to that clusterf...resias---at least Perrin actively dislikes Luc for whatever reason.

(By the way, using a Sans Serif font for the captcha, where you cannot distinguish between capital I and small l---erm. Though that is none of your problem, of course, Leigh.)
17. Rebecca Starr
Awww happy nameday Leigh!

Ch 39
I find the drunken Elayne scene absolutely hilarious - especially when she wonders why she's looking at her face in a basin of water. heh
i also find it very satisfying that Elayne realizes Thom is exactly as cool as he is here, not just "some gleeman" as she dismissed him for on the sea folk ship and back in Tear. take that!
one of RJ's simplest, finest and most poignant lines: "Because it is lonely being a queen" - i can *feel* Thom's emotion when he says that.

Ch 40
no comment

Ch 41
wouldn't you love to know how many generations back Raen and Gaul had a lost common ancestor??

ditto on this being one of the few great (if not the best) Faile/Perrin scenes. I love the Bashere reveal, and I love the wolf reveal. definitely one of her classier moments not to flinch at all at his secret

"care for the living" is one of those pieces of advice found in WoT that teaches me how I want to live my own life.

ok and finally, note the cool little gender equality twist on Faile's upbringing in Saldaea - her responsibilities are to stay inside not cuz she's a girl, but because she's eldest. love it
John Massey
18. subwoofer
@R. Fife- may of heard this before- promise made- promise kept. I always keep my word- don't make me come over there!
19. drewlovs
Funny, spanking just never goes away; te topic just hits too many different mental pictures!!

Thom spanking Elayne is not a big deal to me, as he thinks of her as a child, and more importantly, HIS child. After all, he was there for part of her early years, and from a father's perspective (which I have), you never stop thinking that way towards a child no matter the age.

Thus, a spanking just desn't mean the same thing; besides, I'm starting to remember just how many people get spanked in all sorts of forms in WoT... I think its a popular pasttime.
Lannis .
20. Lannis
Chapter 39: I love that Nynaeve just blurts out to Domon that there's Black Ajah kicking around, and Forsaken loose. And by "love" I mean "am annoyed." Back to that lack of communication theme: drives me nuts... characters won't tell other characters the smallest thing, but "Hey guys! The Black Ajah's on the loose! Oh, and Sammael's ruling Illian!" ::palmface::

Chapter 41: I think this is the beginning of the small clump (end of tSR) where I actually like Faile... then it all goes to shit.

R.Fife @ 7 re: Elayne's Electra complex... dammit... I'd forgotten that. Now I feel all slimey gooey--I need to wash my hands. Ugh.

drewlovs @ 19: re: spanking as a popular pastime... so that's what people did before the interwebs! hmm...

EDIT: I think what bugs me about Nynaeve's announcement the most is that she can't be certain that Domon's not working for the bad guys... I mean, he said he'd wait for them at Falme, and had to leave, but as far as the girls know--he didn't wait! And he just shows up and says "hey, I'm still on your side?!" It just gets under my skin... :/
Rebecca Zmarzly
21. bowlwoman
Yay! I finally caught up. Leigh, thanks for all the great summaries. I skipped over TGH and TDR for now because the recaps have been good enough to remember the gist of everything, so I'll go back and catch up with them after I finish TSR. It's sad for me to think this is actually my first re-read. Grad school and kids took/take a lot of time, so it's nice to be able to do the reading at a slower pace and savor the details.

I was a lurker and maybe posted once on rawsfr-j, but I still have the copy of the WOTFAQ I downloaded to my hard drive before WH came out. Fun times.

Poor Luc. Le sigh. . I'm still confused on the whole Luc motivation thing myself. Was he a Darkfriend? Was he just in the wrong place at the wrong time re: his merging with Isam? Is he just a major prick and his personality works really well as his half of Slayer?
Brian Cavanaugh
22. jagahanas
Happy Birthday Leigh!!! Make it a good one!
John Skotnik
23. ShooneSprings
Bermuda shorts and something involving "sequined parrots"... now that would be a sight to see... guess we should just be happy they aren't ravens!

Happy Birthday Leigh and thanks for the excellent re-reads!
24. bgdaves
Happy B-Day Leigh.

Chapter 39: I think the dislike between Juilin and Domon is mostly the Tear / Illian thing.
Kurt Lorey
25. Shimrod
Happy Birthday, Leigh.

Easy to say you'd punch somebody for dunking your head in a bucket, but between the drowning part and the subsequent throwing up part, one tends to lose focus a wee bit.

And, I still am amazed by the "nerve" you have struck with some posters over the "S" word. The Kinsey Institute might be interested in reading some of this stuff.

I'm not clicking on subwoofer's link. R.Fife already danced that dog.

Nynaeve is still learning. I give her a pass on blurting out info to Domon. Besides, it's not like it's the first time they have met.

I like Faile a lot, but I see heartbreak in her future (and not originating with Perrin).
Chris Hall
26. bookwormchris
Happy Birthday!

I always forget about the Luc/Nynaeve scene in TAR. Slayer is just taking pot shots at everyone, isn't he?

Do love the good cop/bad cop routine, especially since he hits really close to the mark with his comment.

I always vied the whole political situation in Tanchico as a sign that they are really sticking their heads into a pit of vipers here. I would probably get out of town quick if I knew the whole place was about the burst into chaos. (Not that it isn't very chaotic already.)

Whenever I read about the ambush I always yell in my head for Perrin to just go home. Also, kill Luc, please. Skipping ahead, I wonder who helps Luc recover from his near fatal(?) wounding. I know Perrin is very distracted, but put two and two together already!

The reveal scene is one of my favorites, even if I was worried about Perrin. He does have a spear (really, those arrows are like spears) stuck in his side. Unlike Rand, he recovers from his hole in the side. But, great Faile/Perrin moment. Interesting that the trollocs don't bother the Tinkers, even though they would be an easy... snack. Guess Luc has other priorities. (Where is he stashing these trollocs? Up by the waygate? To dangerous for him to keep them in the ways; they'd all get killed.)

Oh, these are probably the most likable Sea Folk we see, I agree. Hard to think of any examples where they aren't jerks to everyone when we meet them again. (We're mostly dealing with the higher ups later on, trying to get the best deal/get the most out of their "bad" deal. You try negotiating with a extra strong ta'veren. Even if he abandons the negotiations quite quickly as I recall. Something about boxes, I believe.)
27. Jamie Bowden

The prophecy from KoD that you're referring to is a Seanchan prophecy (from a damane is the implication), not from the Kareathon cycle.
AJ MacPherson
28. Mackey62
Happy Birthday, Leigh. Great Job as always.

I don't comment alot but am more than willing to help Subwoofer get this up to 1000. We should always help people reach there goals.

In that vain, why it ok to dunk the drunk guys head in a bucket to sober him up, but not sure how to feel about the spoiled but not "spoiled" :) princess' head? And can't you just see Nynaeve as a young wisdom doing the same thing to Cenn or trouble makers in EF?
Blake Engholm
29. UncrownedKing
O no shes missing monday? Think we can hit 800 by Wednesday guys?

I think we got it. Go Light!
30. JamesEdJones
31. JamesEdJones
32. JamesEdJones
33. JamesEdJones
34. JamesEdJones
36. hoping to be of the blood
Let me add my birthday greetings

Elayne is getting a lot of practice smoothing over the effects of Nyneave's rough tongue.

When giving his report to Perrin, Gaul gave 'a sudden wolfish grin.' Will we be seeing an aiel wolfbrother in upcoming books? That would be neat. Maybe just an inadvertant description.
37. Don, Iowa
Happy B-Day Leigh!!!!!

I made a later comment on last blog mentioning how Asmo & Lanfear were actually already on their way to Rhuidean w/ trollocs as a means to dispatch anything that gets in their way. I believe we are seeing Asmodean down by Rhuidean here, and due to it not being able to be entered in TAR he must know something is in there packed away by their (AS) old servants the Aiel. Be is Angreal, Sa'Angreal, Stasis Boxes, Choden'Kal, etc...

Most likely Lanfear is leading him by the strings and he's testing the sight awaiting a chance to go there himself.

P.S. dang, was at 10, now 35 on preview lol
Tess Laird
38. thewindrose
H-BDay Leigh!!!
I have always been confused with Thom and Balye not knowing each other here. Thom did catch a memorable ride on Bayle's boat with Matt and Rand - anyone have the answer?
Helen Peters
39. Helen
Happy birthday Leigh.
Have a good one
40. SpelledIncorectly
Firsty: Happy Birthday Leigh (or whatever you were alluding to without actually saying}])

Second...y...: I've never weighed in on this debate, but just to let you know, I like Faile (even if I cannot really pronounce her name). Why? Well, honestly, there are several reasons. First, she kicks butt. Very important in me likeing someone. Second, this scene, and forcing Perrin to morn his family really shows what type of person she is... well, to the person she loves. Third, well, Perrin is my favorite of the Boy-angle of heros, followed closely by Rand. (As a note, I'm not a big Mat liker. I like him more in the later books, but I think that's just because of Tuon...)

This is also the first chapter where I stopped and realised that Luc was a Bad Guy (note the capitals). When Perrin's group was attacked suddenly, I thought 'Huh? How did the Trollocs know that they were comming?' --> Luc is a darkfriend!

I find it odd in this chapter that Ihvon suddenly appears out of nowhere with express knowledge of what is going on and where Perrin is. Made me actually think that Alanna was a Black at first, although I didn't really realize that Black Ajahs don't always have dark warders.

Not much to say about the supergirls chapter; All of the Tanchico arch leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It might as well be named "The Arch where everyone thinks that they can do everything by themselves without any help." ... Actually, nevermind, that's too long (Like this Post! Burn on Myself!)

I find the Supergirls annoyingly immature at the moment, and I can't wait for The circus/Brigget to mature them up a bit.

Well, ok... that's my sixteen and a quarter cents. (I'm expensive, deal with it). Now, let us work on breaking
41. smcyc
Happy Birthday, Leigh

A bit off-topic, but for anyone here who does not own the complete WOT series yet, this coupon might interest you (40% borders this weekend)

Oh, a bit of a 'figer wag' at FSS; Even though you have since amended it, I did notice the "I'm #1" post you added when I first loaded this page. Being a regular poster you should know better.
Luke M
42. lmelior
My favorite part of Chapter 41 is the part where Perrin remembers the greeting ritual, surprising everybody he's with. As we've noted on several occasions, RJ's at his best writing the scenes where the main characters find out how awesome they are. I'd say he does these scenes just as well. I mean, we know how awesome they are, but it is very satisfying to see other characters' witnessing it.
43. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Interesting how Nynaeve comes upon Asmodean and Isam all in one night. And did anybody notice that her default bolt hole just happens to be the Two Rivers?
Why do these boys always blame everything on themselves?

Have fun in Bermuda Leigh.
44. Phantom
@19 Drewluvs

Spanking is a common occurance in WOT, yes. But along the gender equality lines, the spanking seems to only happen to females. Aes Sedai and those in training, Avienda, Elaine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, Berelain and others are all are spanked at some point in the story, several more than once. But for the guys? I cannot think of a single male character in WOT that received the same treatment (we do get stories about when Mat and Rand were boys, but no when they are grown).

My stab at why Leigh does not mind this occurance so much. (Happy Birthday, by the way). Thom is making a threat to a drunk girl to get her to behave, I am not sure that he really means to do the physical act or not but probably he would considering his feelings for Morgase. But the primary point is he is defending Morgase and not himself. Morgase was not there to justify herself to Elaine or at least to tell her to shut up about things she does not understand, so Thom does it for her.
Sean Jones
45. PersonOfTheDragons
Happy Birthday! I always wondered about that too windrose. The boat ride wasn't THAT long ago, plus it was definitely a memorable one. They both remember all the other characters they re-run into later...why not each other? Maybe we just don't see it, and it's handled off camera. Most of the stuff in these chapters has them coming in from the girl's point of view, and none of theirs.
AJ MacPherson
46. Mackey62
Phantom @ 46

Only time I can think about that comes close is when Elayne uses the One Power on Rand when Egwene and her are trying to teach Rand how to use the power. But not phyically putting him over her knee.
Richard Fife
47. R.Fife
Moiraine smacks Rand's ass with the power at the beginning of tFoH too. And Galina et al sure do go about "punishing" Rand when he isn't in a box.
Maggie M
48. Eswana
R. Fife @7
Technically Elayne is all *Electra* complex on Thom, not Oedipal (sorry--- ooh ooh girl moment.) But yes, full of awkward implications. I felt very Nynaeve-esque when I read about her get all flirty with Thom. Oy.

JamesEdJones @ 30-34:
Because we broke last time we tried to get over 845. That's why :-)

bgdaves @24:
Yup. I think you're right.

I love Bayle Doman. Glad to see him again. Huzzah.

Agree with Leigh and several others- the Perrin/Faile dynamic here is AWESOME. I just hope that it gets back to this level of coolness now that she's rescued.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LEIGH! Drink many martinis. You deserve it! we go!
49. happi
re. men getting spanked - lets not forget Far Madding, where apparently husband spanking is encouraged!
50. JGrizzell
re: @7 R.Fife, chapter39

Actually if a female is "crushing on" a father figure it is called the Elecktra complex:

The Electra complex (colloquially Daddy issues or the Bernfeld factor) is the psychoanalytic theory that a female's psycho-sexual development involves a sexual attachment to her father, and is analogous to a boy's attachment to his mother that forms the basis of the Oedipus complex.

citied from wikapedia

I wouldn't have said anything but I got Rickrolled recently :-)
51. Phantom
@46 Mackey62

Good point, I had forgotten that one, though I seem to recall that as more of playful/annoyed bottom pinching incident. Though when I think about it Rand is beaten quite thoroughly when he is in the box.
52. Cloric

Ch. 39
Wouldn't that actually have been an Elektra Complex? Or am I foggy in the memory area?
Richard Fife
53. R.Fife
@48/50/52 thank you, going back up and editting post. I knew there was a gender correct term for it, but for some reason my brain kept saying a Ophelia complex, and I know that wasn't it.

Rickrolled? Whatever do you mean?
AJ MacPherson
54. Mackey62
I know the whole spanking thing has been posted to death, and the whole gender thing will never go away, but I think the fire needs to be stoked nice and hot for all the blacksmiths out there.

But I think the whole power issue is one of the main reasons the AS are so diliked, especially by Men. Men really can't go put any AS over his knee. So besides the whole being blamed for breaking the world, and trying to make everyone do as they want, and never telling the whole truth, and making everyone be a puppet, and you get the picture. And it seems mostly men are the ones with the problem AS, as women are usually the ones helping them, the eyes and ears, or willing to accept them right away. The men immediately mistrust them. Just a thought.

(oh this fire is quite nice.)
55. fuddy
with the talk of top 20 scenes, i would love to see a countdown, or something like that, of the top 100 wot scenes
Blake Engholm
56. UncrownedKing
Love Faile and Perrin *period*

Luc is just as sleazy as they come.

Ok Ima say it:

He should have spanked her. If ever a sixteen/seventeen year old deserved it, it would be Elayne here.

There its out there start your garbage and refuse throwing. C'mon Im waitin for it.

And yes I said SPANK. We should all try it. Ready?......Spank...... Very good how do we feel?
57. longtimefan
Happy Birthday and thanks for all the re-reads so far.
Joseph Daly
58. Joed1414
Just wanted to say its kind of curious that Faile and Luc are entering camp together at the begining of chapter 40. I have believed for a long time that Faile as well as the entire ruling family in Saldea are Darkfriends. I think Faile betrays Perrin big time in the last book and he ends up with Berelain. I could be totally wrong but what is she doing with Slayer/Luc/Isam???
59. keegansgirl
I believe Elayne or Egwene spanked Rand in the Stone of Tear and Cadsuane has spanked Rand also. Both done with the power.
60. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
keegansgirl @59
It was more along the lines of a pinch actually.
Chris Hall
61. bookwormchris
I was just thinking about who really killed Perrin's family. Twas not some smelly trollocs, I'll tell you that. (Yes, we all know who did it.) There was some discussion earlier about who Perrin's nemesis is, and if it turns out to be "wormwood" or whatever you want to call that thing-in-man's-body-with-pointy-weapon I was thinking it would be hilarious to have a moment like this:

Perrin: "I am Perrin etc etc, you have killed my family (father). Prepare to die!" HAMMER TIME (?)

Not really what I'd expect the happen, but I'm open to the possibility.

@58 Joed1414: I always saw it more as Faile keeping an eye on that suspicious Luc fellow. Plus she probably wants to see Perrin again. It has been a week (not in Randland, I know.) I don't think there is any real evidence that they are Darkfriends.
Alan Perry
62. stepper
Cheers Leigh -- Have one for me!

We will try not to break the pretty Tor thingie again! But....

@56 uncrowned king: you are either very brave or very dumb! (and actually I kind of agree with you). *ducks*
Still best to get it out, I'm a couple of books ahead on my personal reread and there is a fair amount of spanking references

agree the Faile/Perrin scene is one of the best, though I too favor the one where she make him mourn his family

funny I knew who slayer was, but I never connected it to him hinting a being a possible heir to a borderlands throne -- even though he is -- always brushed that comment off as GEE THIS GUY IS AN ARROGANT LYING ASS!
63. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Mackey62 @54
Nah.. It's just that women tend to stick together. So that even if they dislike Aes Sedai they still accomodate them on account of their being women. Leaving men with the short end of the stick when women band together. And your earlier post about Elayne putting Rand over her knee, considering what happened that time, I don't think Rand would sit still for it. Bullying him with the Power so does not work.

stepper @62
speak for your self (evil grin)
64. RobMRobM
@54 - except for Mat, who puts Joline over his knee and gives her what for in KoD (or CoT). Exception that proves the rule, I guess. Rob

p.s. Happy Something Day, Leigh
65. sinfulcashew
Don't remember just where I got this, but think it is an important adjunct(?) to some of the discussion.

"Oh, and spanking is a good form of punishment if it is administered correctly and not in anger. I spanked both my kids, never in anger and never too hard, and I only had to do so about 3 times that I can remember. The rest of the time all it took was a mention of a spanking and they started behaving like human beings again. Sure beats the thirty minutes of talking, threatening, talking, giving in, talking, getting nowhere, having you kids look like brats and making you look like a wimp parent, getting nowhere and finally your kid winning the battle theatrics that we see today."

My daughter is sooooo against this artform(?) that she has actually fought and wrestled with the child along with the articles thirty minutes of.....), while I have seriously threatened same child and have had NO episodes since.

I think the 'padding' is perfectly placed for such attention getting. The 'big guy' knows what He is about!
Dru O'Higgins
66. bellman
Mat and Joline doesn't offend me the way that Perrin/Faile did. Actually kinda funny, and (I think) completely makes sense for Mat's character.

65, I think spanking is fine (rarely) for kids, but the idea of spanking an adult blows my mind.
67. Adam the Aiel
One of my favourite lines from the whole series, "Your Faile... was delicious." Don't know why, but it just stuck in my mind.
68. sinfulcashew
I do agree on that, although I have heard that some adults actually 'like' it?
Roger Powell
69. forkroot
Welcome back Aram! We haven't seen you since TEotW, but now we're going to get a steady diet of your improving sword skills, sour mumblings, and increasing paranoia for the next 7 books.

But that's OK because RJ surely has a real important part for you. Maybe you get to represent the Tuatha'an at Tarmon Gaidon? Or maybe you will figure in some climactic scene with the Aiel?

I'm sure RJ wouldn't just casually dispose of you with a stray arrow or something dumb like that...
John Massey
70. subwoofer
yup- From me- kids get away with anything because they have no consequences for their actions. Back in my day, parents did spank kids. I seemed to of come out okay- R.Fife- shush!
Joseph Blaidd
71. SteelBlaidd
@ Phantom 44
Re spanking Big male example Rand, by the TAS in LoC Twice a day for at least a week and then kept in box between times. The main reason that it hapens to more of the gues thatn the girls is thta the girls spend more time in subordinate positions in strict hirearchies.

The boys are generaly in the position of providing disipline and when the do it tends to be much more leathal. See Tiam clubing down one of his followeres at the end of KoD when the Red Sisters come to visit. Also the Taitors Tree at the Black Tower.
72. CBeats
People love the Perrin/Faile scene because finally they reveal their respective secrets, things we've known about for ages (not sure about Faile's ancestry, but still) but few if anyone in the books know about. Secret revealing is very satisfying! Think in KoD when Halima is finallly revealed as being the saidin killer in the Aes Sedai camp. I cheered when that happened!

On a side note, I definitely didn't get the whole Slayer/Isam/Luc connection until this re-read. Too complex for a simpleton like me, I guess.

-->Let's make it to 1000! I will help.
73. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
SteelBlaidd @71
The intent does not fit. When males spank females over the course of the series it is to discipline a female who's acting out of turn. The Aes Sedai beat up Rand in an attempt to break him. Make him obedient. It had nothing to do with Rand having acted out of turn(maybe it does in the Aes Sedai's sick little world).
Males also follow hierarchy but as RJ built Randland's culture, females are more amenable to leadership by intimidation and accomodation. The whole surrender to Saidar concept. Their ways of enforcing the hierarchy are generally more subtle as opposed to males who always struggle with Saidin. It is only when these subtle hints fail that the beating starts. As in the novices, and Rand. Rand was primarily beaten to make him accept their hierarchy. A very low rank in their twisted hierarchy.
Maggie M
74. Eswana
CBeats @ 72:
Think in KoD when Halima is finallly revealed as being the saidin killer in the Aes Sedai camp. I cheered when that happened!

Me too..... except that she (he?) wasn't actually caught. GAH. I really hope that has a big payoff in aMoL. Egwene ought give Halima what for, perhaps most poetically in the form of excruciating headache pain. Yup.
Ian Hurst
75. Ian_Hurst

Thank you! I had mentally half composed a response to the same effect before I got to your post, and you said it better than I probably would have. Very interesting point. The disciplinary violence inflicted on men is, for the most part, of a very different character than we see inflicted on women.
Luke M
76. lmelior
fuddy @55
Re: Top scenes
I just surveyed the summaries of all of the books, and I bet that if everybody listed their top 10 scenes, the only scene in books 7-10 would be the cleansing of saidin. They all just kind of blend together in my head. KoD was nice since, you know, stuff actually happened, but I can't actually remember any scenes from it. Looking forward to the re-read of the later books, though, since I'll probably see them in a new light then.

As for coming up with my own list, that'd be mighty tough. Dumai's Wells of course, that has to be on pretty much everybody's. Perrin's smithy scene, definitely. Mat beating the crap out of Gawyn and Galad, Logain's Healing, the Aiel history, and a whole slew of scenes from tEotW; prologue, Trolloc attack on Emond's Field, Mat's battle cry ... the book is full of them! tGH to a lesser extent; Rand's audience with the Amyrlin, Mat and the Horn, duel with Turak. The cleansing of saidin was great, though it was retroactively lessened when Rand actually got worse afterwards.
77. SRizea
Assuming for a moment that the spanking of adults doesn't carry the same taboo in Randland that it does in the real world, I think the distribution of spanking incidents makes perfect sense.

Men spank women because they are bigger and they can. Women don't reciprocate because they cannot overpower the men (though they have certainly found their own "corrective" tools).

Channelers can obviously overpower men, but they don't because it would come across hypocritical. The women spend a awful lot of time demeaning the value of violence as a solution tool. To use violence themselves would reduce their authority.

I would even argue that WoT women acknowledge the value of spanking as a corrective tool. That is why they employ it on each other when there are no men around to point and say "Ha! Sometimes even YOU need violence!"

PS - What was done to Rand in the box has no bearing on the spanking issue. That was torture, both by method and by intent.
Alan Perry
78. stepper

Really? I thought Aram's death battling with Perrin was a really dramatic moment -- his turning on PErrin bcz of his eyes, and that really annoying lunatic The Prophet. Really caught me by surprise, even with all Aram's mutterings/mental instability.
79. explopyro
Regarding Aram: it's really interesting to see him here, because for whatever reason I find myself mostly remembering his demise in KoD when I think of him, and forgetting that there were some actually interesting scenes with him, and just how heavy the foreshadowing (of something) was.

Remembering how much buildup there was regarding him in the earlier books (he was one of Min's viewings too, which always suggested to me that he was going to do something important or fateful in some way) just makes the anticlimax of that particular scene even more jarring.

I don't think attacking Perrin and then getting killed by some Shaido is enough to justify all the foreshadowing we had with Aram. If, however, Jordan had been planning to in AMoL have Perrin be emotionally affected in some significant way by Aram's betrayal and death (perhaps pertaining to his hammer/axe dichotomy or his perception of the Way of the Leaf), then that would have redeemed it for me completely.

I hadn't spent much time thinking about this particular subplot before, but now I find myself becoming very curious what, if anything, Sanderson will do with it...
Michael Johnson
80. twosheddz
lmelior @76

Some of my top WOT moments come from the later books, mostly KoD, though.

Nynaeve's sneaky trick on Lan

Perrin's bloody interogation of the Shaido

the Seanchan General's realization that Mat has been kicking his ass with a fraction of the troops that he thought he was up against

These are all up there for me

P.S. Leigh, I think your martini glass is empty.
81. SusanB
Happy Bday Leigh!
I love this Perrin/Faile scene, but then again I love Perrin & Faile. They might be my two favorite characters.

To answer some random questions that have come up before:
My least favorite character is Rand. (Its probably weird to love a series so much & like the star character so little.) I think this is because he spends so much time trying to be "hard" and that's just so foolish.

My favorite scene in the series (so far) is when Nynaeve goes to the borderlands to call soldiers to follow Lan. A top ten would be harder to choose b/c there are so many good, pivotal, important, and/or moving scenes.

My favorite book is which ever one I am reading at the moment.
82. sps49
@80 twosheddz-

You have to couple the General Kadere (right?) scene with the other half- when Tuon announces the marriage bit. His world view took some severe hits, there!
Michael Johnson
83. twosheddz
R.Starr @17

I'm with you on the many pieces of worthy advice that there are to be gleaned from the series. I hadn't realized how many along with the number of quotable quotes until i read the whole list on Wotmania.

One of my all-time favs is from Thom: "In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes."
Chiara Elvira
84. elvyelvy
Happy Bermuda-parrots(?)-Martinis-NamingDay and enjoy a relaxing holiday!!!
We’ll try to keep an eye on certain posters and avoid the complete disruption of the blog. At least we’ll try to keep it to a state of “mild” disruption. You see, I feel for the poor guys who make site maintenance, knowing you’re going away for a while, my my, what state they must be in.

Great chapters. I admit I found the head-dunking part funny –triggered forgotten memories, though, can't think why- and Thom, well, he is an old and cunning fox, a man of many layers, and one not craving for personal power. His lines about Morgase and how she felt are so human and true and sweet. Incidentally, I’m still waiting to see in aMoL his settling scores with our “dear friend” Elaida. I bet it won’t be just some spanking, nonono. And his admitting to having been Morgase’s lover makes it clear that Elaida must have been involved in what made him leave court: one less between her imbecile self and Morgase.

Perrin/Faile: the girl’s got it, well hidden under a deep layer of insecurity and jealousy. A touching moment of sincerity. Later on, on meeting Davram and his formidable wife, Perrin will think he has married into a family of mad people.

Oh, Leigh, have another glass of Martini, and bottom’s up!!!
Michael Johnson
85. twosheddz
sps49 @82

Yeah, I also found it hilarious when Thom has to disabuse him of the notion that he is behind it all.

It's also pretty much the same time as Tuon's "Lion on the Hill" epiphany.
craig thrift
86. gagecreedlives
Happy Birthday Leigh


What you wouldn’t tell an almost complete stranger your plans on hunting down an organisation that aes sedai have denied existing for thousands of years and that the big bads from the stories are free? Gee not very trusting are you

Jamie Bowden@27

The actual prophecy is "When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown."
And you could dismiss it as being a bastardised Seanchan version but Verin does ask him in an upcoming chapter when is he going to give up the axe for the hammer.

thewindrose @38

I think there is a very strong likely hood that they do recognise each other but they do be playing it close to their chest. Thom does the same thing at the circus with Aludra.

Now does it strike anyone else as odd that Birgit led Nynaeve right into the arms of slayer?
Amar Ramraj
87. aiel1219
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Leigh! (Taureans Rule!!!)
Enjoy your vacation...martinis...mmmmmmmmm(the Homer S. one)

You read Sci-Fi AND like martinis AND wear Bermuda shorts n Parrot print Shirts!!! *sigh* the good ones are all truly taken

LOL!!!@ me

I also really like the Faile-Perin reveal scene. Too bad the rest of their relationship isn't similar. It would've been nice if atleast one relationship could have been based on understanding and trust sprinkled with those interesting moments of misunderstanding and distrust, instead of the other way around.

About Aram's sudden death in KoD. Did anyone notice any other characters meeting an abrupt and surprising end in KoD? I remember Roland dieing was a surprise to me. I thought he'd have something else todo later, I was kind of surprised at the way he died.
John Massey
88. subwoofer
I'd like to start by saying that I understand why James Bond is the toughest man in the world. He drinks martinis. Gin is dry enough, but to add vermouth and an olive. Woo, that's got bite. Just sayin'. Unless it is a...female martini... then, meh.

Ch39. Domon is one of my favorite peripheral characters. The way Mat sizes him up and thinking him comical, then later reassessing. I love the way he reacts when he learns that the BA is real and he is going to be on the look out for them. It is like everyone else is running from trouble, he is running towards it.

As for the BA, I get Domon's reaction. The White Tower is supposed to be pure and unspoiled. All the AS take these oaths so people can trust, in essence, demi-gods. People walking among them wielding awesome powers and living really long. Then finding out some are bad. It is like finding out about corruption in the police force. These guys stand up for law and righteousness and now they use their power for selfish things.
John Massey
89. subwoofer
The other thing that jumped out at me is Thom's humanizing of the Queen. Under it all, Morgase is a woman. My appreciation for this is the Morgase/Tallanvor connection. Her loyal guardsman that follows her to the ends of the earth. When RJ, through Thom says
Everyone wants someone in their life, someone who cares for them, someone they can care for. Even a queen.”

This lends to my thing that Tallanvor is hanging around in the hopes that Morgase will see him as a man and not just one of her guards. Which I believe, at some point he does- although the passage escapes me.

Chapter 41- Perrin & Faile. Now while I am not the biggest Faile fan, I do get this. And Faile's dad rocks. When she tells Perrin all that she has been keeping back, all that would scare a normal guy away, Perrin takes it well. The same goes for Faile when Perrin tells her the truth about him,- swinging the hammer in haste.

What grabs me about this is the honesty. Love, at least IMHO happens when you see a person for who they are. Good and bad, warts and all. When you see a person at their best, and at their worst and can still love them unconditionally, that is gold in my books and that is what Perrin and Faile have at this point.
John Massey
90. subwoofer
Men spank women because they are bigger and they can. Women don't reciprocate because they cannot overpower the men (though they have certainly found their own "corrective" tools).

Women have the power of guilt. They use this to brow beat men into submission and bend men to their will. And the sex and flirting thing is a great tool to get most guys to do things they would not normally do.
Alan Perry
91. stepper
*drinks a small toast of white wine to Leigh and RJ*

Yes Roland's death in KOD really surprised me too.
I think it was RJ's way of making ourselves stop and think about our own secret keeping.

Like others have posted, I get so mad at the characters for not just talking to others...."Rand, for Light's sake! Just tell Aviendha what is in the two the letters!"...Boys and TO each other...not just AT each other...

Then comes Perrin killing Roland...and my first thought is, "I hope he never finds out that Roland was rescuing Faile" I am thinking that is a secret Faile should keep, while I am critisizing everyone for keeping secrets. No Doubt it would seem a good idea to Faile to keep it a secret, so Perrin would not stress about it. But then, when all the characters keep secrets they seem to think they are doing for the other's benefit.
Hmm...not liking finding myself sounding like a hypocrite...but really not wanting Perrin to find out that Roland was a GOOD GUY that he killed...not a BAD GUY that he stopped...
Alan Perry
92. stepper
ok, got to ask I guess everyone does some time..what is IMHO? I only commented on one blog before this one, and that was to leave a small condolensce when I found out we had lost RJ.
So i have tried to figure out IMHO with no good results...likely obvious to the more frequent bloggers...but hey, i dont mind looking stupid...most of the time, at least!
93. Branwhin
@81 & 97:

Rolan's death really made me sad. Big, strong, capable fighter, a good man who ended up with the WRONG people and knew it and tried to make things right. While being fiercely attracted to a married woman, true, but... I liked him, dammit. Well done, RJ.

Aram's about-face was a shock, too, despite the aforementioned (if hardly surprising) instability.

However, that's a ways off. These chapters have a real poignancy to them, I love Perrin and Faile here. They're a formidable team.
94. hoping to be of the blood
Stepper @ 92
IMHO = in my humble opinion
It's amazing what you can learn with google. Today I saw WWBSD. Never seen it before. Today I found out it meant 'What would Bob Saget do'? Who cares? Google, dude
Peace out. Yankees win, Theeeeeeee Yankees win.
95. RobMRobM
Stepper@91. It's Rulan, I think. I just finished my re-read and had a full two minute panic attack that I didn't know who "Roland" was and I believed I must have been losing my mind. Yes, I was surprised. A death as quick as Aram's with about half as much buildup.

All - I'm very fond of KoD. Probably my third favorite behind TDR and TSR and might even nip in ahead of TSR. Lots and lots of chill scenes and great setting things up for the final book (I mean books). As noted @85 above re the "lion on the high plains" (not "on the hill") reference, the Tuon POV chapter where she realizes she has no idea what type of man she hooked herself up with is particularly great, as is the Perrin-Seanchan initial negotiation scene ("So you have some Aes Sedai...Not marathdamane, Banner General...Ashaman - you begin to interest me...The Shaido have 400 channelers, I can't help you...But here is this letter from this Suroth lady...Who the heck are you?") and the "honey in the tea" Egwene chapter.

L @76 I also agree there's dearth of cool scenes in books 8-10 (except for the Choeden Kal, which rocks) but that initial talk between Mat and Birgitte ("You have secrets of your own...Really?...Well what language are we speaking right now) is very cool as is Rand and Min's chat with Caraline and Darlin followed by swordplay wth Riatin ("He has to be a blademaster too....".

Back to this book, these are very solid chapters, especially the Duopotamian ones and the big Perrin-Faile reveal. As I've noted in past posts, Faile is pretty awesome throughout TSR except for the S-word chater. Shouldn't hold her later annoyances against her at this stage in the series.

96. RobMRobM
One other poignant KoD scene - Tam to Perrin just before the battle for Malden: "Taim came to the Two Rivers and recruited 40 youths. He said Rand was the Dragon Reborn"; Perrin to Taim "Nothing to do about it now, is there?" Heartbreaking. Note that it echoes back to the scene earlier in TSR - Tam to Perrin: The Aes Sedai let slip that the three boys are ta'veren. Perrin to Tam: I haven't noticed anything happening with Mat or me.......

97. ValanVinyl
Hey I finally caught up! The re-reads are awesome Leigh, happy b-day! My 2 cents: The Faile/Perrin scene where she makes him mourn his family is by far my favorite, the emotion is so palpable there and = Awesome. The Wolf-King thing kind of bothers me, even if i think its cool at the same time, because I'm really not sure if wolves would like that term used. It seems they are more in the realm of the leader-among-equals mind-set. I just don't think they'd take kindly to the idea...

The head-dunking of Elayne is definately my favorite scene of her. But then i am definately in the Elayne is a stuck-up-snotty-beeaatch camp.

2 cents over.
Ed Rafferty
98. BigBoy57
This whole spanking thing - a definite non-event IMHO, but maybe I think that because I'm 57 and male - meh.

My very favourite scene - Nynaeve's block removal, for some reason I just love it, followed closely by the prologue to TEotW - what a way to start a series.I was hooked from there on in.

Many happy returns Leigh.
99. Confutus
@38 Elayne spotted Domon's eyebrows rising when he sees Thoms's gleeman's cloak, and thought it almost looked like as if he recognized the gleeman.

Of course he did. But there are some things it's much safer not to be asked about. Any possible connection with this Lord Dragon fellow he might have actually met once before he started Breaking the world is probably one of them. And Thom certainly knows better than to let something like "Hey, I remember you!" even cross his face. Especially where meddlesome persons who might be working at cross-purposes might take notice. No, none of those around, are there?

I thought Bayle's talk about the lords and officials of Tanchico, and its dark underbelly as if there were little difference between them could apply to more than one of place, some of them not so very long ago or very far away, either.
John Massey
100. subwoofer
Ahem, WWBSD- What Would Brandon Sanderson Do?
Amar Ramraj
101. aiel1219
Oh... Sorry about the Roland thing. I haven't read KoD in 2 years and was listening to the audio books. So my mind must've made it Roland.

To Correct myself, it's Rolan
John Massey
102. subwoofer
'K, we're at 101, not that I am counting...

Some of my favorite scenes involve the battles and I like the interplay between some of the characters. Like when Uno promises not to cuss and just about dies in the process, as swearing is a part of his life. Then he is allowed to cuss every second sentence.

Or when Rand is invited to Lord Barthanes' manor and Mat has to play as his servant. That really was fun.

Mat having fun with Tylin were also classic moments. She had more hands than an octopus and Mat did not know up from down.

When Mat first forms his Band when he is riding away from the big fight in TFoH and then he sees some soldiers unknowingly on an intercept course with aiel. He rides towards the Tairens and Cairhienin to warn them that bad things are coming their way and they follow him from that point on. And then Mat kills Couladin. That sealed it for me.

Rand telling aiel a joke and them asking him if it is "wetlander humor" or some such, then being convinced that the water was at the heart of the whole joke...
It's the little things between all the big scenes that stand out for me.
John Massey
103. subwoofer
and I can't forget the "My Loial" scene between Loial's mom, Corvil and Erith and Elder Haman(sp). Yet another example of how ladies can brow beat a guy into submission, or saying "yes, that is what I wanted to do all along". Harumph.
104. ewells
Is there any conclusive proof that Thom is not Elayne's father? I have been wondering about that for a while now. Never seen any discussions/FAQ about it.

I thought my favorite scene in the whole series was when we found out what Loial was doing when the Trollocs attacked the Stone. I finished my reread of TSR last week, and there are a couple of paragraphs coming up in the Two Rivers that beat it completely.
Alice Arneson
105. Wetlandernw
No, Thom is not Elayne's father. See the WotFAQ. They present the case much better than I could.
106. ewells02
Wetlandernw @105-Fair enough.
Ofer Nave
107. odigity
There are lots of great scenes in the later books, they're just buried in more tedium than in the earlier books (though I believe when the series is done, and we reread the whole thing, we'll come to like them more than we used to).

KoD is full of them, but I'm trying to save that for when we get there, so I won't start. I will point out one thing though that I somehow never really appreciated until my most recent reread (books 1-11 in 5 weeks, finishing right when Leigh started).

There's a sequence of chapters towards the end of CoS that is just amazing if you read the whole thing in one swift pass. It's long, it's continuous, it keeps building and accelerating and twisting and turning and getting crazier with each chapter (stolen from

33. A Bath

The night Rand ordered the armies forward into Illian, he Traveled to Rhuidean and fetched the two Ter’angreal in the shape of a man and a woman.

Believing the night with Min was forced by him, Rand shuts himself away in his room. It is 4 days before Min can convince him that she loves him. She makes him prepare to meet the Sea Folk on the ship in the river.

34. Ta’veren

Rand meets with the Ship-mistress. Since Rand is ta’veren she reveals more than necassary, providing Rand with a good ground for negotiations. He demands transport for his troops and supplies whenever needed. He also wants patrols off the western shores and news from Arad Doman and Tarabon. The Ship Mistress says that no ships return from the Aryth Ocean, making Rand suspect the Seanchan are already back.

35. Into the Woods

Rand and Min visit the rebel camp outside Cairhien. They meet the two leaders, Lord Darlin from Tear and Lady Caraline from Cairhien.Caraline recognizes Rand as the Dragon Reborn but Darlin does not.

Min sees a king’s crown on Darlin’s head.

When they enter a tent they spot Padan Fain in the service of Lord Toram Riatin.

Cadsuane is also in the tent together with 2 Aes Sedai friends and 3 Red Ajah from the Tower.

36. Blades

Rand is fighting Toram, a blade-master, with practice blades when a bubble of evil strikes the camp. It kills a Red Sister before Cadsuane can take command and lead the flight out of the mist.

Fain suddenly jumps Rand, cutting his side with the Shadar Logoth dagger. The wound is on top of the old one and Rand is close to death. Cadsuane and a Yellow Sister, Samitsu, try to heal him but are unable to.

They exit the mist, Darlin carrying Rand despite having found out he is the Dragon. On the road they stop a carriage and on the way back Min tells Cadsuane of her and Rand’s time of captivity.

When Rand is back in bed Fliinn, an Asha’man, manages to heal him better than both Cadsuane and Samitsu.


It's one long ta'veren-induced train, like a 24 hour bender on some crazy drug. The above stolen chapter summaries don't do it justice, but if Leigh really wants to go for the gold and rock our world, she should make arrangements to ensure these four chapters get reviewed together, making up one big bad ass post, in order to capture the momentum and unceasing descent into surrealism that RJ accomplishes here.
108. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
gagecreedlives @86
No I did not find it striking. Nor did I find it necessary to complicate things by assigning an insidious motive to Birgitte in leading Nynaeve to her confrontation with Slayer. IMHO Birgitte had no idea where Nynaeve would instinctively, instantaneously teleport herself. She's supposed to be on their side, after all. In a moment of panic Nynaeve simply went straight home, where surprise, surprise, Slayer happened to be on the prowl.
109. RobMRobM
Odigity @107. Like those chapters too - you'll note I mentioned a couple of them in my post above as one of the cool scenes from 8-11. (As one of those small pleasures in the series, I always loved Samitsu's response after Flinn healed Rand: "I'll bond you, I'll marry you - just teach me what you just did to Rand." Good times).

Agree that there is a bit more tedium in there but, frankly, there are a surprising lot of tedium sections scattered through all the books - more than you sometimes remember on reflection. It's more than there are a lot more grumpy people to deal with - Sea Folk are incredibly annoying; some of the Kin are annoying; some of the people around Egwene are annoying; Jolene and the Suldam's are annoying; the fights between the officers for the Gheldean and Mayene forces with Perrin are annoying; and, of course, Faile and Berelain during their annoying phase pre-capture. Collectively, these make the cool scenes a bit less fun.

110. JamesEdJones
87 Aiel

IMHO (had to use it) Rolan's death was my favorite example of someone doing in ignorance exactly what they would have done with full knowledge of the events.

This guy was one of the ultimate oath-breakers, coming down on the side against the leader of the only hope the Aiel have. But, more importantly, he made no effort to free Faile until the camp was attacked, and took the opportunity (at least once) to grope our hero's wife! I can't see Perrin doing anything differently if he knew exactly what happened.

Favorite scene: When the Council of Nine (eight?) gives Rand the Crown of Swords. That quote about, "every lip with the light." is one of those lines that brings laughter and tears. Every-Time.
111. RobMRobM
Now, after my long exposition through books 8-11 (helping out the Go for 1000 Effort (TM), back to the chapters in question. Leigh mentioned the Wolf King foreshadowing; she didn't mention Perrin's statement to Raen "You will find the song." Betting huge dollars that it will happen in the final 3 books and that it will matter to the post-TG world.

Also, re the Perrin-Faile reveal scene (and perhaps looking a bit beyond these chapters), I'm still waiting with bated breath for explanation of what is the Saldean "broken crown." Mentioned a couple of times and expressly tied to Perrin by Min's pattern dream - so what the heck is it?

112. RobMRobM
Alanna - given lots of thought to that conundrum and only thing I can think of is that she out on one of the first passes at hunting Two Rivers girls who can channel. Having Ihvon with her would make it harder for her to stay under radar while getting close enough to hunt for the spark. Either that or she's a darkfriend and is off to hang out with Fain....

John Massey
113. subwoofer
Joed1414@58- um- I did not see that coming. Maybe I am reading a different series... I am sure you have some proof to back that up... Once upon a time I did think it may be an idea that Perrin would be a good match for Berelain. Then I came to my senses. And there is a viewing that Berelain will end up with Galad(LoC).
John Massey
114. subwoofer
Alreadymad @73- well put. I am skimming through the comments, when I posted yesterday I didn't really have a chance(((((usually I have a thought in my head to the upcoming chapters- I read again to keep it fresh in my mind-I post-read the many things Leigh has to say- post a response- then wade through the community and pick out the common threads and the good stuff- and it goes from there))))) to see what was said about the male/female response to spanking and discipline- other than the spank altogether comment. I wonder if the Oaths bind AS from doing harm unless directly harmed or threatened- how Moiraine gives Rand a love tap- as per R.Fife@47?
John Massey
115. subwoofer
Gonna be a busy day for me(honeydo list) so I am posting now for general fodder later. Am with SusanB as far as favorite scene in series.
so long as one woman wears the ki'sain in pledge that she will send her sons to fight the Shadow and that one man wears the hadori in pledge that he will fight the Shadow, Malkier lives.

Aha- I knew Lan wasn't the type to wear hair accessories for vanity sake. Finding out what the hadori was, for me a light bulb moment. Lan has always been focused. With his history- how can he forget his heritage. Even back to the first book with all the Shienarians going crazy about the Golden Crane banner flying again... this connected the dots for me and validated a lot of things.
116. hoping to be of the blood
mi amigo del norte
Uh, thanks for the correction. Unfortunately, I still do alot of learning by making foolish mistakes. I have to get that acronym info to google. It's not even on their radar screen.
117. dubjazz
Hey Beltane Baby, magical birthday girl. Truly celebrate - leap a fire!

off topic and very cynical:
(Don't beleive a word about Swine Flu. Donald Rumsfield has major share intersts in Tamiflu, funny coincidence dept. especially as germ warfare labs in Texas are missing files of their engineered flu gloop).
Richard Fife
118. R.Fife
She wasn't using the power as a weapon, but a disciplinary tool ;) Pesky Oaths being subject to internal interpretation. Still love the commenter (ack, forgot who) that had the little skit where the First Oath got interpretted to mean the only word one could say was "True".

DubJazz: This is the WoT Conspiracy Theory threads. Political Conspiracy Threads are thaddaway.
Jim Adams
119. dubjazz
Ah yes, sorry. Couldn't help it.
120. birgit
I believe we are seeing Asmodean down by Rhuidean here, and due to it not being able to be entered in TAR he must know something is in there packed away by their (AS) old servants the Aiel. Be is Angreal, Sa'Angreal, Stasis Boxes, Choden'Kal, etc...

He just questioned Mat about Rhuidean and found out about the stuff there.
121. Orideth

The Broken Crown is just the name of the ruler's crown. We know exactly what it is, it's pretty straightforward. Davram Bashere is the current next-in-line for the throne if Queen Tenobia dies, since she is unmarried and has no children. Faile is Davram's heir, making her second in line for the throne.
Dru O'Higgins
122. bellman

On Perrin's statement "you will find the song" - I've been assuming that the song is the Ogier treesinger's song, so Loial has it. If it is, I wonder why the tinker's have never asked the Ogier about the song.
123. hoping to be of the blood
The ogier treesinging is not 'the song' but one of many aol songs.
Please see this for a great discussion
124. Master Al'Thor
What do you do with a petulant child or teen for that matter? I come from a family that holds the belief if you spare the rod you spoil the child. And considering the time period of ous story. Spankings all around.

Some may not like that idea. Why should Faile get spanked? Or Elayne? Becasue sometimes when you get too big for your briches you get your ass handed to you. Men get a thumping, women get spanked.

Is this fair? Yes, yes it is. Why? Becasue in that time period it was perfectally acceptable. I almost wish it was still. My wife could use a spanking every now and then. To be fair I need my ass kicked more.

The whole thing really boils down to this. Men talk to their male friends respectfully. Even when they are giving each other the "business". Women speak to their female friends with love. So this is how men and women wants the other to talk to them. Women can be very disrespectful, i.e. Nynaeve, Egewene and Faile. Men can come across as very unloving, i.e. Rand, Perrin and just about any other man you can think of.

Anyway this all causes huge problems. And when the breaking point is reached....spankings, fights and all manner of violence happens. I am quiet suprised that it doesn't happen more often.
Dru O'Higgins
125. bellman
My mistake, the tinker's have asked the Ogier about the song. In fact, they asked Loial to teach them treesinging. Wotfaq suggests that the song may not be found until the age of legends comes again.
craig thrift
126. gagecreedlives

I didnt mean to offend you but lets read the quote togethor shall we

"Nynaeve whirls to see a woman with a long golden braid and silver bow. “Birgitte?” Nynaeve asks incredulously, and then says that’s impossible. The woman repeats that she must go, and draws her bow as if to shoot Nynaeve. Nynaeve flees, somehow ending up in Emond’s Field, where she seems to see a great shadow lying across the village. Then she sees Birgitte ducking around a corner and chases her, shouting for her to come back or else. She rounds the corner and sees, instead of Birgitte, a man striding toward her.

Her breath caught. Lan. No, but he had the same shape to his face, the same eyes. Halting, he raised his bow and shot. At her. Screaming, she threw herself aside trying to claw her way awake."

Nynaeve would instinctively, instantaneously teleport herself to the Two Rivers, I grant you that makes sense but Birgitte being there and Slayer as well just waiting for her to come around the corner is certainly suggestive
Joseph Blaidd
127. SteelBlaidd
Already Mad @ 73
I would argue that the continued Beating of Egwene in KoD is an a tempt to break her to Elida's will.

One of the important things to remember is that Flogging( beating with a strap)and birching( beating with a rod) are the accepted forms of judicial punishment for the equivalents to things that in our day and location would get community service and a fine. My point is that Rand with the TAS is the only time that any of our male characters is in a situation where the power relation is such that they would be subject to that kind of nonlethal reprimand. And they do consider him to have behaved like a wayward and stubborn child.

The only stable male organizations we come across are Armies, Ashaman and the Whitecloaks. In the first two cases we're generally dealing with the Generals and in the third standard punishment is a visit to the Hand of the Light which usually has much worse results than a swat on the bottom.

Note that when Cadsuane and Friends find out none of them thinks of the constant beating of The Dragon Reborn as remarkable.

Regarding secrets. As I go back through most of the non-communication of information among the younger heroes is generally a result of; Not having the right to disclose (Elayne to Egwene about Birgite), not knowing the other party doesn't know (rand thinks Aviendha knows the contradictory nature of Elayne's letters), or being afraid of the consequences of revealing the secret (this covers a lot, Rand about Asmo, Perrin about wolves, Faile about her parents, etc.).
Ofer Nave
128. odigity
dubjazz@117: I really wanted to say that, but didn't want to be the only tin-foiler here. Thanks for going first. :)

I get annoyed anytime someone mentions swine flu. It just reminds me how effective propaganda is. Sigh.
Alice Arneson
129. Wetlandernw
gagecreed @126
alreadymad @108

Not that it proves anything, but I always assumed it was someone pretending to be Birgitte that Nynaeve saw duck around the corner. Moghedien, maybe, though they haven't met her yet. Or someone who figures she's going to cause trouble. I'm confident Birgitte isn't in league with Slayer, but I have to admit it seems awfully coincidental. Might really be coincidence, but my money is on someone else playing games. No, I have absolutely no substantiating evidence. Do I get credibility points for using big words?

RobMRobM @111
...Perrin's statement to Raen "You will find the song." Betting huge dollars that it will happen in the final 3 books and that it will matter to the post-TG world.

I for one won't take you up on that bet. I think you're right.

odigity@128 (and dubjazz@117)
I get annoyed anytime someone mentions swine flu.
So PLEASE don't talk about it here. Gah!
130. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
SteelBlaidd @127
Precisely my point. Egwene is being beaten in KoD because simple intimidation does not work on her. She won't accommodate them and accept a low place in their hierarchy because she believes she is the rightful Amyrlin. Hence, the beating. It was pretty much the same with Rand. When they had him in hand, the objective was to force him to accept their authority, to assimilate him into their hierarchy. They did not even bother to try intimidating him. Went straight to the beatings. Of course Cadsuane etal did not think it remarkable that he was beaten. Cadsuane has been an Aes Sedai long enough to know the routine. Intimidate, and if it does not work, then use force, display your control of the Power. Note that this is much the same reaction Moiraine had. Since Rand could not be intimidated, convinced to her way of thinking, she resorted to the One Power. Cadsuane has the same reaction in Tear. Aes Sedai make a great deal about learning to deal with stress and being diplomatic and knowing better when actually all they are about is intimidating others because they have the True Power.
Richard Fife
131. R.Fife
132. sinfulcashew
131. R.Fife
What exactly did you lie about?
I must have skimmed over something?
The picture doesn't tell me anything?

(just trying to help fill up the posting?)
Richard Fife
133. R.Fife
I lied because I said (here) there were not pictures (to my knowledge) of me so dressed.
Alice Arneson
134. Wetlandernw
Hey, it's only a lie if you knew it to be untrue. After all, you've got the shawl, might as well go by the rules!

Very fetching, btw.
mark Proctor
135. mark-p
Happy Birthday Leigh.

Liar, You Must be BA.
It looks like you are trying to pass it of as a cloak in that picture, you need a mitre then you could pretend to be the pope
Richard Fife
136. R.Fife
No, I didn't lie! As Wetlander said, I was able to say the picture did not exist because I thought they didn't! Go Light!

And actually, it almost was a cloak at that time: I still had the travel-stitching/whatever-its-called in the tasselling, so the long fringe was fairly cohesive like solid fabric. I didn't pick it out cause I had a nice 7 hour drive ahead of me that day, and I didn't want to risk it getting all kinked/knotted up. Alas my broad shoulders/back, I couldn't exactly get away with looping it through my elbows, so I just wore it up on my shoulders.
mark Proctor
137. mark-p
Ok maybe you didn't lie about the shawl but you lied about being a liar so you are still a lying liar dark friend.

why are all those L words spelt so differently and why can't the firefox spell checker know how to fix my mistakes? I need to go and lie down its past my bedtime.
138. Freelancer
Ok, I waited over 24 hours before weighing in this time.

RE: Thom threatening Elayne with a walloping. I don't know why your take on this should be different from Perrin/Faile in the slightest. One person is crossing a line in the mind of the other, and the options available in responding to them are the same. Thom didn't have to slap her, he could have reasoned with her another way. He didn't have to threaten putting her over his knee, he could have given her some background to help her understand her mother better as a woman instead of just queen and mother.

Thom loved Morgase deeply, and did everything necessary to protect her while he could. It probably wasn't a great thing for him to hear someone speak of Morgase's relationships to other men, one of whom Thom had never met. Then her own daughter, someone for whom Thom has paternal feelings, is about to disparage her as a loose woman. He snapped, slapped, and put her in her place. Then returned to being gentle immediately.

You think this example is different because:

1) She was a drunken teenager, he an older person with greater wisdom of the true situation
2) She was VERY out of line
3) He didn't follow through, but left it as a threat
4) I don't know, I'm sure you have a reason that is more valid than the first three, because they don't do a thing for me in making the case that this is different from Perrin spanking Faile.

RE: Juilin not knowing himself. Leigh, I disagree with your assessment. Juilin is a thief-catcher, as good as they come. He is that because he knows how to get in their heads, so he knows how they think and work. It makes perfect sense that he would be more comfortable communicating with folks from the wrong side of the canal, as it were. And being a Tairen commoner, his cultural training wouldn't permit him to be so bold as to try and blend into higher society. Just because he has a strong moral standard for himself doesn't prohibit him finding sources of information from those without such.

RE: Faile and Luc arriving at Perrin's camp together. Faile, a DF? Hah. She wants to check on Perrin, but she's not stupid enough to wander about alone with Whitecloaks and trollocs in the offing. Luc, however, DOES wander around a lot, and likely already knew where the camp was. So since she isn't as suspicious of him as Perrin, she'd ask him to take her there.

RE: Perrin finally asking who Faile's father is. Quite the terrific vignette there. People always take Perrin for being a brick or two short of a full load, but he solves puzzles as well as anyone. Faile forgets this, and just keeps giving him clues until...oh crap, a direct question! I always wonder at this point, is it her pride, or her standards, that prevents her from making up another story at this point. She could pretend she wasn't lying before, while knowing full well that she was. Now she'll be in serious trouble if she fibs and he learns of it.

Maybe it's a memory from the Ways that forces her to come clean. I'M JUST SAYING...
Richard Fife
139. R.Fife
@137 These are not the lies you are looking for, and I do not have the actual thread-relevant posting you are looking for either.
140. dubjazz
Well I was only responding to Leighs comment ...
"If I wanted reality, I could go outside and catch swine flu."
The manipulation of reality, that's wot it's all about ain't it?
141. JamesEdJones
131 RFife

Jordon Con Pictures!!! Woo Hoo! Ok, now we need labels (other than the bearded Aes Sedai, of course).
142. RobMRobM
@121. That's the simple and possibly correct explanation - the Broken Crown is simply the name of the Saldean crown that will come to Faile once Tenobia and Davram bite the dust (as they will in the near future, IMO). But I keep thinking to myself - why is it referred to as "Broken" and could it perhaps refer to ties between Saldea and somewhere else that have been broken and there are hopes it could be revived. I actually checked Encyclopedia WoT and other resources to see if there was a tie between Manetheren and Saldea's predecessor countries (they are not that far geographically apart) but found nothing. That was the reason I posted what I posted - I believe there is a meaning of Broken Crown beyond merely describing it - but I understand there's no text that I can find that advises whether the answer will be the simple one or something more interesting....

@129 - thanks and nice to know someone is in my camp.

@138 - agree on all points. As an editorial note - very appropriate tone to boot ;-)

On the subject of the dreaded S word in particular, I'd note for Leigh (and Kate N as well) that there is lots of S in the WoT, almost as much as its windiness. Not a big deal to me even if I would never S my wife or kids in the real world.

Amar Ramraj
143. aiel1219
@141 JamesEdJones
How about thte reason y AS strip so much!

is that a good label??
craig thrift
144. gagecreedlives

I dont think there would of been time for anyone to set up a trap or even pretend to be Birgitte it wasnt like Nynaeve planned on going to the Two Rivers. More likely Birgitte just followed her to see where she went and then decided to rush of to the nearest Ta'avern for a few ales with Gaidal.

For the record I think Birgitte is definitely part of team light (Go light) but just wondered if anyone else thought it was weird.
Alice Arneson
145. Wetlandernw

Yeah, okay, it kinda bugs me. I can't accept any explanation that makes B a DF, so I suppose I'm limiting myself. If it was real life, I'd just shrug and say it's coincidence. But this is Robert Jordan, and there really isn't much coincidence lying around WoT... So I'm sure he put it there for a reason, and I'm also reasonably certain we'll never know for sure what that reason was. Oh well.

Go light.
Amar Ramraj
146. aiel1219
Hey guys. I just found this file I did some time ago. It is a list of the bits of the The Karaethon Cycle we see in the 11 books. Since Leigh won't be posting tomorrow, I was sondering if I shud just put em up in a new post. Give us summn to do and another post for us to go crazy on and thus not break post 14 as well. LOL!!! Waddya think?
John Massey
147. subwoofer
@R.Fife 131-> Shenanigans!
Let's try and stay on topic for at least the first 200 posts, eh?

Lousy time to flaunt your portfolio. You'll never make it in the industry as a model,(you need to loose like 100lbs) so quit tryin' to fob your pics off on everyone and stick to the chapters at hand!

Um... drunk AS are fun...

And as far as Juilin, it takes a thief... That is another big thing with cops. They spend so much time dealing with the underbelly of society that it is hard to pull themselves out from that mire and rise above.

It is like those horrible Bruckheimer shows on TV. To figure out criminals, you have to put yourself in their frame of mind.
John Massey
148. subwoofer
Aiel? izzat you? r u drunk? whatcha doin up at this time of morning?

What you talkin' about Willis? I think the techs have figured out that we are hell bent on bringing this puppy down!

Start another post. The nerve!
John Massey
149. subwoofer
Wetlandernw- B was tied to the Horn. She was(before some doofus ripped her out) tied to that pattern of the Wheel and spun out every time it was sounded- for the good.

I am interested to see when Gaidal Cain comes to play. Then we can play the who beats who game for blademasters.
John Massey
150. subwoofer
'K 150...
I gotta take this to Vegas. Put a laptop on the Strip and let the randoms do posts... make a 1000 before the next refresh, then an angry midget steals the laptop.

Maybe someone will come up with a picture of a guy in a shawl...

And don't forget... in the AS ceremony when the Amrylin was announced, all the women were like the Sea Folk- topless- so yet some more of the big N... RJ puts this stuff everywhere if we'd just care to look. I think he does it to show how small town country Rand et al really are.

Sydo Zandstra
151. Fiddler
Cool idea, subwoofer. Let's kill the server! (NOT)

Let Leigh enjoy some time off, and in the mean time everybody can enjoy Real Life.
mark Proctor
152. mark-p
@139 - There appears to have been some sort of time line anomaly. Who is playing with Balefire?
You better be careful other wise this whole thread could get burned out of the pattern/server.
mark Proctor
153. mark-p
I just looked up bale in the dictionary
an archaic meaning is:
1. evil; harm; misfortune.
2. woe; misery; sorrow.
Evil; an evil, pernicious influence; something causing great injury.
I wonder if Robert Jordan used this meaning deliberately in balefire?

Time to follow Fiddlers advice, the sun is shining and i have work to do.
Richard Fife
154. R.Fife
@subwoofer: me in drag isn't on topic? D'oh.

On the topic of the S word and the N word etc (and wow, if a non-WoT person was reading this, they'd think I was talking about something completely different), I have to wonder how much Red Eagle is going to be able to do in the live action movies if they want to keep it from not being 'R'. Eye won't be so bad, but tGH on starts to get raunchy in a way. And all those sweat tent scenes! It'd be hard to film that well without making it a whole bunch of talking "heads and shoulders."

Perhaps post Eye movie they can turn the rest into a showtime series like Game of Thrones is doing.
155. Tony Zbaraschuk
General agreement on this being one of Faile's awesome moments.

I like the Tanchico arc; there's a lot of humor, a lot of derring-do, and we learn a lot about the world. (Besides, Nynaeve's battle with Moghedien is one of her awesome moments, though she has a lot of them this book. Elayne and the basin is another. Nynaeve does get a bit of a breakdown later on, but at some point the characters have to react to all the stress they're under...)

It is fun to see the girls try to be Aes Sedai-subtle and getting read like a book by everyone they encounter (like Bayle Domon, another great character, recognizing their good cop/bad cop routine.)

I think one reason tSR is such a good book is that we don't get overwhelmed with any one plot thread; we keep jumping to new ones while we still want to know what's happening with the old stuff.
F Shelley
156. FSS
@150, 155

Romanda: Who comes before the Hall?

Egwene: I am a woman.

Sheriam: I am a woman.

Anaiya: I am a woman.

Uno: I am a woman.

From the most awesome summary of WoT eveh!
Bill Bácsi
158. billbacsi
I'm sure it's on purpose. Just as I'm sure RJ deliberately named Moiraine after

adjective 1. (of silk fabric) having a wavelike pattern
noun 1. silk fabric with a wavy surface pattern


accumulated earth and stones deposited by a glacier

RJ repeatedly refers to Moiraine's silks and to her icy (glacial) demeanor. Uh, that author was no slouch! These nuggets get me going with his writing as much as the wonderful world he created. There's always something more to discover.
John Massey
159. subwoofer
@Fiddler- aka Agent Smith-dodge this. Crash the server. Reboot the Matrix.

Was enjoying "real life" all yesterday building a deck. Working like a heathen all day in the sun. Part 2 today. Real life is relative to me. It is what I define it to be at my moments. Not yours. It's like my mom telling me to go out and play. Go enjoy outside! The fresh air ;) The nerve of you! I am going to sit in my dungeon and no one can tell me otherwise!.... yes dear, I am finishing the framing, I'll do the fascia today... grumble- enjoy real life- grumble I'll show them enjoying real life

@155- I think RJ takes great pleasure in people-AS, throwing up. Maybe Ny is getting some back for having such a weak stomach on the boat- a constant and reoccurring theme- but it does show that for all the power ENEMA has, they are still real people. Even daughter-heir Elayne showing her human side. And yes- am Domon fan, his good cop/bad cop ox driver stick analogy was bang on.
Sara H
160. LadyBelaine

Precisely my point. Egwene is being beaten in KoD because simple intimidation does not work on her. She won't accommodate them and accept a low place in their hierarchy because she believes she is the rightful Amyrlin. Hence, the beating. It was pretty much the same with Rand. When they had him in hand, the objective was to force him to accept their authority, to assimilate him into their hierarchy. They did not even bother to try intimidating him. Went straight to the beatings

I'm not actually sure this is accurate; when Galina at al seized Rand from Cairhien, he was smuggled out of the palace in a box, but then for the trip back to Tar Valon, he was given the Logain treatment; a large cage/prison/paddy-wagon thing that was sparsely furnished where he could be watched and shielded at all times.

Only later when he goes apeshit after he sees Min was abducted too and killed two warders in his escape attempt did they start flogging him and keeping him in that box(query - Dick Cheney, Red Ajah sympathizer? discuss)
161. warcaller

I'm fairly certain that Moiraine is named after Morgaine, or Morgan Le Fay. A lot of the names of characters are traceable back to Arthurian myths.
Sydo Zandstra
162. Fiddler
Was enjoying "real life" all yesterday building a deck. Working like a heathen all day in the sun. Part 2 today. Real life is relative to me. It is what I define it to be at my moments. Not yours. It's like my mom telling me to go out and play. Go enjoy outside! The fresh air ;) The nerve of you! I am going to sit in my dungeon and no one can tell me otherwise!.... yes dear, I am finishing the framing, I'll do the fascia today... grumble- enjoy real life- grumble I'll show them enjoying real life

Good for You. I'm done with you. Meet again when you have grown up, in a year or ten.
Ofer Nave
163. odigity
R.Fife@154: On the topic of the S word and the N word etc (and wow, if a non-WoT person was reading this, they'd think I was talking about something completely different), I have to wonder how much Red Eagle is going to be able to do in the live action movies if they want to keep it from not being 'R'. Eye won't be so bad, but tGH on starts to get raunchy in a way. And all those sweat tent scenes! It'd be hard to film that well without making it a whole bunch of talking "heads and shoulders.

Back in the day when I wanted to be a director, and my life's ambition was to adapt WoT (I wasn't worried about anyone else succeeding before I'd get a shot, since I don't think anyone else is going to do it right - except maybe one of us), I used to spend idle moments figuring out how I would handle these issues.

Actually, this was an easy decision. No censorship, no abridgement, no surrender. Yeah, it will raise the rating, but better to take that for granted and free yourself to do things right, rather than limit yourself to vague arbitrary rules. Some people might find it weird at first, but as episode after episode rolls out, with scenes full realized without shame, people will get over it. Oh noes, no clothes! Eventually it will become a non-issue, as relevant as the species of tree in the background. As it should be.

So, this is a red herring issue for the would-be director. The *real* issues are:

1) Adapting inner voices. Half of the information in the books is inner dialog.
2) Adapting non-visual sensations, such as feeling the DO's minions nearby, Perrin's olfactory sense, the feeling of the taint when channeling, the feeling of another's ability to channel, etc. Raimi accomplished this well with the Spidey Sense in Spiderman 1 (and all the fan reviews rightly mentioned and raved about it). This is technically a subset of point 1, but worth expanding upon.
3) Implementing POV correctly. Each scene is told from a character POV (which nicely eliminates the need for any 3rd-person narration). Whether or not the power is visible, for example, depends on the POV of the scene. This may confuse the viewers. Also, the director needs to be very competent at making it clear (in a subtle way - not by literally making the camera the eyes of the POV character) who's POV is active in each scene. This gets especially in difficult in the chapters when RJ switches POV between two sentences. Great effect in the book, hard to adapt to screen.
4) The visual adaptation of the one power (during scenes told from a channeler's POV who can see it), including:
a) trying and failing to touch the true source
b) touching the true source, but not drawing the power
c) drawing the one power, before or without using it
d) actually weaving the flows, including making distinct the five elements, and somehow depict the weave then turning into the actual physical effect. For example, let's say you're weaving a gateway, and let's assume it looks like a bunch of glowing threads getting woven. When it's done, then what? The glowing threads disappear and a gateway appears instead? Or do the threads remain visible, but a gateway appears in their midst?

My favorite scene to direct in my mind is TSR Ch. 10 - The Stone Stands. Ch 9 ends with Rand in his chambers, Lanfear urging him not to go out, and he opens the door onto a "scene of madness". Ch 10 begins there, with the dead Aiel and Gray Men, and the Defenders fighting Trollocs and Myrddraal. I've always envision starting with a two-shot of Rand and Lanfear talking, camera following Rand's back as he walks toward the door and opening it, then following him out in a handheld "walking through Serenity" kind of shot as he starts engaging enemies in battle, and continuing to follow him (continuous shot, no cuts) in real time as he starts hunting through the stone.

Impossible to accomplish without weeks of rehearsal, but... did I mention this would be a 100% CG project? :)
164. wsean
@161 Oh yeah, there are a whole lot of Arthurian references. I never cottoned on to Moiraine = Morgan though, good catch.

The Andoran nobles/royal family are the most obvious connection:
Morgase = Morgause
Elayne = Elaine
Gawyn = Sir Gawain
Galad = Sir Galahad (will he somehow help heal Rand, the Fisher King?)
Tigraine = Igraine (Arthur's mother, nice one)
Luc = Sir Lucan? (in some versions, the knight who throws Excalibur back into the lake--don't know what this might mean for WoT)
Thom Merillin = Merlin
Gareth Bryne = Sir Gareth (half brother of Mordred)
Caemlyn = Camelot or Camlann
Lord Pelivar = Pellinore
Lord Perival = Sir Percival
I'm sure there are more that I haven't remembered.

And there's a few in the Two Rivers as well:
Egwene al'Vere = Guinevere
Bran al'Vere = Sir Bedivere? (ok, maybe a stretch)
Nynaeve = Nyneve (Lady in the Lake)
Rand al'Thor = Arthur

Then there's Mordeth/Moridin = Mordred, of course. A conflation of characters, as happens several times (Rand = Arthur, Artur Hawkwing = Arthur).

The biggest missing one is Lancelot. Lan as Lancelot could work, but doesn't fit with the whole Andoran thing.
Amar Ramraj
165. aiel1219
sorry sub... I must've been drunk... am back to sober now (or as close as I get)
What r we gonna do tonight brain?

Graendal killed Asmoedean! Mwuhahahahaha!!!

Verin is the Creator's secret weapon!Mwuhahahahaha!!!

Elayne will not get the Sun Throne... Galad Does Mwuhahahahaha!!!

Darnit... I ran outta Mwuhahahahaha!!! theories :(

Sheesh I'm bored... planning schedules for training sessions for the month... aaarrrrgggghhh!
Richard Fife
166. R.Fife
Lan as Lancelot works very well, I think. Lancelot was French while the rest of the Arthurian knights were English. Thus, Lan, the foreigner, can be Lancelot De Lac (of the Lake, thousand lakes... hrm)
167. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
subwoofer @114
When AS use the Power to whip, beat and force others into submission, they are using it as a tool. Not a weapon. That's the kind of self-delusion AS are into.

LadyBelaine @160
My bad. My memory's getting sketchy at my age. But even with what you pointed out the pattern still fits. Even more so. Intimidate, then if that does not work use force and/or display your control of the Power. The "Logain phase" was the intimidation phase. Since Rand still had enough fight in him to demolish two Warders in two seconds flat, they went on to the beatings. Note that rather than using a regular whip they used the Power. Note also that it was the Red Ajah, whose stated goal was to break Rand, who took charge of the beatings, with Erian asking permission to take turns. Instead of Erian taking charge as the aggrieved party (having lost two Warders). Aes Sedai relations always boils down to showing others how much more control of the Power they have over others. Especially amongst themselves.

odigity @163
Agreed. As an alternative they could shroud the sweat tent scenes in steam. Add a whole new dimension to the word steamy. Director's call of course.
But another thing I'd like to see portrayed is the whole surrender to Saidar/struggle with Saidin concept. As well as how to depict the characters seeing how much of the Power the others hold.
168. PieterT
Happy birthday Leigh,

I hope the Tinkers find you a nice birthday song!
I really wonder how that storyline will work out in MoL. Must be a little more than 'Oh right - Happy birthday to you. That's the song we've been looking for the last centuries'.

Hope you sober up by Wednesday Leigh, enjoy your time off!! Cheers!
169. Shadow_Jak
Now here’s a possibly flammable conundrum for you guys to have fun with: this is the second chapter in TSR so far to feature the S-word (the act, not the actual word). So speculate, if you dare, on why Thom’s threat of it to Elayne did not particularly bother me, while the other made me go up in flames. I’m interested to see if y’all hit on it.

Ohh! Ohh! I know! I know! Pick me!

Because he slapped her first?!
(No idea why that would make a difference... but hey, who can understand women, right?)
*diving for cover*
170. wsean
Oh yeah, good point. And Lan definitely fits other Lancelot characteristics--Arthur's most trusted knight, a great warrior, son of royalty who were driven away from their kingdom, etc. And the Lady of the Lake/Nynaeve connection.

Hey, there are a lot more parallels than I thought. Ok, now I'm convinced.
Dru O'Higgins
171. bellman
I had to check wikipedia to verify, but Galahad was Lancelot's birth name. I'm sure I've run across some versions where the names are both used for Lancelot well into his joining the round table.
Alice Arneson
172. Wetlandernw

Yes, some say Galahad was Lancelot's birth name. However, Sir Galahad the Pure, he of the Round Table, is Lancelot's & Elaine's illegitimate son.
Richard Fife
173. R.Fife
Also directly from Wiki (and what I remembered of Arthurian Legend):
Sir Galahad is a knight of King Arthur's Round Table and one of the three achievers of the Holy Grail in Arthurian legend. He is the illegitimate son of Sir Lancelot and Elaine of Carbonek, and is renowned for his gallantry and purity.
Well, obviously RJ picked and choosed, and more power to him for having done so, but that Galad is kinda the "odd son out" of the Andoran noble line fits with the "bastard child" thing too.

Also glad that we don't have to bare witness to any kinky Lan-Egwene-Rand love triangle. *shudder* Although, I have to wonder: will Lan betray Rand like Lancelot betrayed Arthur? Hmmm.

*edit, gar Wetlander beat me to it.
174. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Thom's threat to S (what a naughty letter) does not particularly bother most because Thom is old enough to be Elayne's grandfather. Viewed in that context, any instance of Thom spanking Elayne can chalked down to paternal discipline. While some of us might not agree to spanking the child, it is at least more comprehensible to society at large compared to spanking between two adults of the same approximate age. That one smacks of BDSM.

Now everyone, let us all take a minute and listen to our inner Lews Therin...

Break it break it break it break it
Michael Ikeda
176. mikeda
Incidentally, there is also a THIRD Galahad in the Arthurian legends.

Duke Galeholt (sometimes spelled Galahad), an early (and formidable) foe of Arthur. Lancelot won Galeholt's allegiance to Arthur and Lancelot and Galeholt became close friends.
177. Shadow_Jak
Stepper @ 91
...but really not wanting Perrin to find out that Roland was a GOOD GUY that he killed...not a BAD GUY that he stopped...

I'm confident that neither Faile nor Perrin would consider Roland a "GOOD GUY". Sure, her was nice to Faile, after her capture. He saved her life at least once, likely two or three times. Saved her from being raped at least once. Does that make him a GOOD GUY? Only in comparison to some of the others.

Remember, he participated in an unprovoked attack that captured her and six of her female followers and KILLED everyone else with her (except for Berelain). In fact, Roland personally killed her horse and took her captive. Sure, he played nice, during her capture, but clearly only because he found her attractive. Yes, he even seemed to be on the verge of helping escape, (and have a little fun, "you're husband wouldn't hold it against you"). And this was only after MONTHS of helping to hold her captive. Hardly a GOOD GUY. Despicable (said in my very best Daffy Duck voice, spittle and all) is a much better adjective.

Got pretty much what was coming to him, and if Perrin knew all the details, I think he would agree.
Chiara Elvira
178. elvyelvy
bellman, sorry to nitpick but Wetlander is correct:THE Galahad is Lancelot's son by Elaine daughter of King Pelles, while Lancelot is always known as Lancelot, his birthname Galahad is not an issue in the romances, and I have read nearly all the original ones. As to the third with that name, the spelling is sometimes Gaheriet (at times the same name is spelled differently in the same romance)
They have quite different personalities and roles, Galahad being the almost saintly knight who will see the Grail, while his father Lancelot, the perfect-yet-fallible knight will just get a glimpse (his love affair with Arthur’s queen does not entitle him to uber-perfection) of it.
Incidentally, Lancelot recovers his father's kingdom - and Lan is just about to do the same. First Malkier to TG and then?
Ooops, Arthurian-ranting-time's over for now.

No, you didn’t mention it, odigity@163, but it’s pretty obvious CG must be heavily employed in the scene you mentioned and everywhere else. I can almost hear the roaring grand soundtrack, rising until the climax and then fading.
As to the casting, we do have a few candidates, don't know why a well-known Yellow Ajah AS pops into my head. :)
Ok, when do we start? All volunteers for the XF-3D department raise their hands and mice.
Alice Arneson
179. Wetlandernw
Re: Rolan, I have to agree with ShadowJak & friends. Rolan is only a "good guy" by comparison to the company he's in. He's one of the "brotherless", meaning he refused to believe/accept the truth told by the Aiel clan chiefs and Wise Ones (ALL of them except the Shaido agreed that Rand told the truth). He's teamed up with the Shaido, who all the other Aiel call "honorless dogs." The Mera'din (brotherless) claim that those who follow Rand are breaking tradition, but then they go along with the Shaido in taking "gai'shain" from people who don't follow ji'e'toh, which is far worse, traditionally speaking, than anything Rand or the others have done. Yes, he sees Faile as an attractive woman and treats her better than the other Aiel in the camp do, but that doesn't make him a good guy. He's just a slightly less-bad bad guy.

Oh, and from a "wetlander's" POV, I'm pretty sure Perrin isn't going to think highly of the guy who cut all his wife's clothes off, tied her up with her own stocking, made a leash of her other stocking and ran her naked through the snow until she passed out. Not even a little bit. Even if he did eventually wrap her in his coat and carry her to keep her from freezing to death. Nope, I don't think Perrin would see him as a good guy. Or be sorry he's dead. Not much.
Dru O'Higgins
180. bellman
Just putting forth a theory, let's not all flame me - I know Galahad is the perfect knight, a separate character from Lancelot in the Arthurian legends. I think it might be interesting if RJ named Galad while meaning Lancelot, whose mother was also named Elaine (Tigraine). Lancelot doesn't become known as Lancelot until he faces the Dolorous Guard early in his career.

Lancelot was also known as the perfect gentle knight until he became corrupted by his relationship with Guinevere. I'm wondering if Berelain will be playing her role in future books.
Ofer Nave
181. odigity
elvyelvy@178: No, you didn’t mention it, odigity@163, but it’s pretty obvious CG must be heavily employed in the scene you mentioned and everywhere else.

Not heavily employed. 100%. The only real attempt at a photorealistic 100% CG film was Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (2001). It was very impressive for it's day, though not quite hitting the mark. Of course, that was eight years ago. We've since had Golum and Kong, which were major steps forward.

The cast has literally thousands of people. That's a contract and continuity nightmare. There are dozens of major cities (with maps and extremely detailed descriptions), and hundreds of towns and villages. There's the Age of Legends, the Seanchan attack at Ebou Dar, the clusterfrak at Dumai's Wells. WoT will never be properly doable as a live-action series.
182. Cala Lily
@Bellman: Galad is pretty infatuated with Egwene, whose very name "Egwene al'Vere" is extremely similar to Guinevere, so maybe in the last three books she has something to do with his "fall from perfection". On that note, I don't think Elaine is so much referring to Tigraine as Tigraine is referring to Igraine, the mother of King Artur. That Morgase has a daughter named Elayne and a step-son named Galad is just RJ realllllly working the Arthurian vibe into Andor, IMO.
183. CalaLily
Aha, and I just thought this. Maybe Galad's "fall from perfection" is Egwene convincing him Aes Sedai aren't evil witches and gets him to stop opposing them, even if that is against everything the Children of the Light stand for. That would be a pretty big shift for Galad.

And on the note of getting to 1000 posts before Wednesday....

Am I the only one who hears a song on the radio or YouTube and thinks "That's so -insert WOT character here-'s theme song"? I have a couple I hear pretty often.

You Can't Take Me by Brian Adams -Egwene
Real Good Man by Tim McGraw - Mat
Lannis .
184. Lannis
ACK, a Richard Sedai spotting! (And don't you look cute in your shawl, sir!)

mark-p @ 153: re: balefire... yes, I think RJ named it deliberately... the man did his homework pretty thoroughly. :)

CalaLily @ 183: re: Galad's fall from perfection... I like your theory... It'd definitely help align the Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks for TG... I guess we'll have to see... WWBSD? :|

Um... I just realized... Leigh's not going to come back and let us know if we were right about why she was okay with the Thom/Elayne Almost Spanking Incident and not the Perrin/Faile Actual Spanking Incident...

And Happy Birthday weekend, Leigh (if you're still reading these comments)! :)
Dru O'Higgins
185. bellman
Calalily - you're right about Tigraine/Igraine, my mind blanked on Arthur's mother.

I like your theory about Egwene and Galad's fall. But when I think "corrupting men" my thoughts just leap to Berelain.
John Massey
186. subwoofer
'K, Fiddler, wipes egg of my face upon re-reading my post I realize how crass it must of come off. When I went over it the first go, it sounded tongue in cheek. Apologies. It was a clear cut case of putting the winky face in the wrong location.

I seem to spend a fair chunk of time taking my metaphoric foot out of my mouth on these posts. Not enough time in the day to compose these things well.
John Massey
187. subwoofer
It also dawns on me a la Alreadymad... that S was referring to spanking... duh!*smacks to my head* was thinking it stood for sex as the other taboo thing, the BDSM reference jarred it straight for me. Naive country boy that I am.

I am staying out of the Authorian thread as it seems that there are experts batting around interesting theories.

@163, in my minds eye, whenever RJ has a character weaving the flows I have always pictured something out of Ghostbusters with different colored threads representing all five elements. When something comes into being, the treads are still visible around the weave. Maybe like one of the Forsaken in the first books.

To me, the weaves are not visible to the naked eye, unless you can wield the Power. I have nothing to back this up, but we now have the tech to make this real in film, as somebody put a link to a previous post showing that the rights have been acquired. If they can do LOTR justice then WoT can't be that far behind. The only hang up is that Tolkien had a long time to permeate our culture whereas Jordan is still a new kid on the block in terms of penetrating pop culture.
Richard Fife
188. R.Fife
Sub: not only are the rights obtained, Red Eagle Entertainment, the company that has the rights, is actively pursuing the adapation of Book 1. I spent a fair amount of time with Larry Mandragon (yes, that is his real name) of Red Eagle at JordanCon talking about it with him. I have faith in him.
Alice Arneson
189. Wetlandernw
Of course, whether they did justice to LOTR is a matter of opinion...
Maggie M
190. Eswana
Thanks so much for the photo link. Very nice! Everyone looks so lovely and happy.

calalily @ 183
I really like your idea, CalaLily. Definitely possible, given Egwene and Galad's past flirtations. However, I would imagine their alliance will also be spurred on by Galad's respect for Gawyn (ie, Egwene by extension) and Elayne (an Aes Sedai), as well as his need to do the Right Thing. Galad is smart enough to know that there can't be infighting on the Good Guys side with Tarmon Gaidon around the corner. Also, he's not ignorant enough to believe that Aes Sedai are actually Darkfriends.

bellman @ 185
I don't really believe Berelain deserved even half the reputation she's collected about "corrupting" men. Granted, letting everyone believe that she and Perrin were shacking up while Faile was captured was pretty ridiculous, but she's certainly not the "scarlet woman" many of Our Heroes (especially the girls) think she is.
She has a good sense of integrity and is pretty damn clever. She and Galad will be a good pair, I think- she can help him loosen up a tad and he is someone she deserves and is well-matched for. Hurray.

go Light!
191. Freelancer
mark-p @153
To answer your question if RJ intentionally used the term balefire, or simply made it up, look up Bel Tine (Beltane/Bel Taine), Sunday, Aes Sidhe, etc. In fact, try any seemingly unique term to WoT, and you'll almost certainly find Irish, Gaelic, Germanic, Norse, French, Latin, or other old language references that parallel their usage in WOT.

This is the mastery and genius of Robert Jordan. With few exceptions, everything has a meaning, and that meaning is drawn from this world's history or mythology. No accidents, no coincidences. Amazing.

RE: The Arthurian plot parallels

Others far more expert than me have hit the high points, and some of the minutia as well. I'd only like to add that Lan as Lancelot IS a fit for most thematic elements. Single minded, warrior to his toenails, 100% loyal to whomever he pledges, and is somewhat of an outsider to the central cast. Add to that, he is not only willing to die for what he sees as the right, he courts death, in part for the tragedy of his early life. He doesn't expect to fall in love, doesn't plan for it, even struggles against it for a time. (I am glad that the betrayal part of Lancelot's story isn't paralleled by Lan.) Galahad (Galad), on the other hand, the pureheart, ALWAYS does what's right. He was the one Merlin intended Arthur to trust, rather than Lancelot, he was the one to see the Grail. Galad will become one of Rand's trusted generals for TG, the prologue of KoD makes that a certainty.

RE: WoT on film

TEoTW will make a terrific feature film. My personal opinion is that it would be best left at that. Let the new fans turn to the books to learn the rest of the story, after their minds are blown. For all of the reasons presented above, there are too many non-traditional obstacles to overcome to do true justice to the depth and shading of the story, no matter how good the CG is.

The internal dialogue for sure is the largest of these. The various forms of nudity is another. Visually presenting the large variety of ways that things are "felt" by characters. I actually think that displaying woven flows of Power would be easier than many of the other problematic elements.

And then there is the fact that covering the events in each book after TDR would require more than one film, unless they were like 5 hours long.
192. dcole78
so should we try for 1000 comments before monday then? I can feel the twitching starting all where did I put my bloggitis patch. Oh and happy birthday leigh, I'll be turning 31 soon so I feel your pain. On a note from the previous blog I didn't get a chance to respond to I was also one of those always ready to raise the hand and answer questions people and now that I teach I love those people because really trying to cox an answer out of a normal student GAH I think I could get oil out of a stone faster (maybe it is because I teach Chemistry). Of course I have also been accused of being one of those people who are insecure and have an overinflated need for others to tell me how good I am...
John Massey
194. subwoofer
as for Lan betraying Rand.... I dunno, unless Rand does something to threaten or harm Nynaeve. Maybe it is Isam/Luc the mirror of Lan that does the betraying, and being as Rand is fairly ignorant about the whole situation, Rand blames Lan for it and it goes down hill from there.

Galad, on the other hand, I could see doing something boneheaded right off the bat, in the name of Right. He still has to learn that what is Right is not necessarily in the best interests of all involved. As someone has already said, but it does bare repeating, good intentions= highway to hell...

Go Giants!
John Massey
195. subwoofer
Aiel 1219, I think we are in similar boats as when we post, everyone on the Eastern time zone is either in bed or going off to work. Find it a challenge to join into threads as it is either on the tail end or so off tangent that an early post is the casualty of war.

Still have plans bent on world domination, now involving bending time and space so the world is all on the same page at the same time...
John Massey
196. subwoofer
@R.Fife- Larry Mandragon? Go figure. And associated with the books to script. Either meant to be or a case of legal name change. Mind you, I have actually met someone named Harley Davidson, so it is entirely in the realm of possible. Strange, but possible.

Still looking for a guy named Gandalf.

so should we try for 1000 comments before monday then? I can feel the twitching starting all ready

We got and hour, I am and insomniac and if I post every other word, it could happen... psyc!
Ofer Nave
197. odigity
I wouldn't try to do WoT as a film, even one film per book. I wouldn't do it all if it had to be shortened. It would be 15-20 hours per book, or no deal. I have no interest in the "realities" of the current film/TV industry. Their days are numbered, anyway.

Of course, I'm just a software engineer with no trust fund, so it's easy to talk big. I'm just saying, if I had the money to start, that's what I'd do. Once the first few episodes are done, the profits would be used to keep them coming, making it self-sustainable.

We're still at least five years away from CG being good enough to get it done. It would have been sooner if anyone had actually been putting resources into photorealistic technology specifically instead of just visual effects and stylized Pixar-ish flicks, but FF:TSW was the only real attempt, and it bombed at the box office. Squaresoft's studio in Hawaii (started specifically for this) was shut down. I was so disappointed. There is surprisingly little demand for photorealistic CG, it seems, though I remain convinced that someday (10? 20 years?) it will eventually at least compete head-to-head with live action, if not completely displace it. Diamond Age (by Neal Stephenson) has a pretty good take on the human-in-a-motion-suit as a CG-realized live actor.

It would probably take $50-100M to start, with all the up-front costs of developing the core characters, casting voices, figuring out how to realize certain effects, modeling creatures, etc. Whether or not it would be sustainable is an open question (each episode has to make at least as much money as it costs, and would have to do so largely using the Radiohead "pay what you like" model, since intellectual property is nonsense, and information can't be controlled, no matter how much Hollywood wants to believe it can).

I personally believe it will eventually be financially feasible, since the market is getting larger all the time. 15 years ago, international box office was an afterthought. Now it is twice domestic. Half the world still doesn't have net access. Soon they will. When there are 6 billion consumers, even niche content can have an audience larger than the blockbusters of the past.

I love the long tail. :)
John Massey
198. subwoofer
@183 CalaLily
Rand's song or maybe this depending on if he goes on his duty is as heavy as a mountain, death is as light as a feather kick.
Perrin's anthem, like you didn't see that coming.
As for Mat- this is it. He's a dirtbag, but he is confident and cocky.
John Massey
199. subwoofer
FF:TSW had a huge hurdle to overcome in that much of the history and background was only known by gamers. It is like picking up Crown of Swords as book 1 and expecting to have a clue.

I dunno, I can see actors doing this. Back to New Zealand everyone goes and it goes into works for 5 years. Maybe the pare down the books to a trilogy or a 6ogy ala Lucas. OG series then prequils or Origins. Saw the movie- wtf's up with Deadpool?

Upshot of the whole thing is, the purists will have a cross to bare as there will be no way that the books are going to be regurgitated verbatim.
Joseph Blaidd
200. SteelBlaidd
I am patiently waiting for the scene where Rand acknowledges his relationship to Galad, in front of Elayne. I think she would swallow her tongue. :)

@CalaLily 183

In the House of Stone and Lightand I Miss You Like the Deserts Miss the Rain were on the radio all the time in '95 and they are inextricably tied to Rand in The Fires of Heaven and The Trip through the Waste.
John Massey
202. subwoofer
@200 nice avatar. Must have an iron clad memory to recall '95. All I can recall was some good grunge. Nope, not an oxymoron. Rand and LTT, Matt should be listening to Bob.
203. IanGH
Happy Birthday, Leigh!

Spanking again... Aside from the threat of spanking, nobody mentions the full-on slap that Thom delivers. Shocking? Maybe in the real world but in Randland everyone is beating on everyone else. Remember Nynaeve stalking around Emond's Field with a cudgel? And the AS manage to convince themselves that beating someone with the power is not using it as a weapon? That might be true in their world but in mine a cop with a stick or a taser is still armed with a potentially deadly weapon.

Personally, I don't spank my kids because I don't ever want to raise my hand in anger against them and it seems the best way to avoid this is to not raise it at all. On the other hand, my parents spanked me heartily and I don't feel particularly scarred by the experience. But it was about as effective as the beatings on Egwene by the tower AS at the end of KoD.

By the way, what I got most out of chapter 39 is another round of respect for Thom for his defense of Morgase. Can he get more awesome?

Ch. 40: I don't think it was until this read through that I had figured out that Luc had warned the Trollocs. Duh!

Ch. 41: Excellent chapter. I love how RJ plays the unexpected knowledge card- the surprise everyone gets when they find out Perrin has dealt with Tuath'an before. It's a small detail that could have been skipped over but wasn't. It's also cool that Perrin and Faile finally learn the truth about eachother. Unfortunately, the number of cool Faile chapters is dwindling the closer we get to the end of this book.
Amar Ramraj
204. aiel1219
subwoofer @ 189
Totally agree to Crawling in the dark 4 Rand "will i ever get to see the ending to my story?" LOL!!!

didn't get the other Randsong link to work, not sure about the Mat n Perin ones.
205. CalaLily
Aha. "Wild One" by Faith Hill describes just about every one of the Supergirls. x3

"Sold" just seems too close to Seanchan da'covale to be comfortable...

8D Found the anthem for gender relations in Randland!

Who's Cheatin' Who?

Rand strikes me as the "Kryptonite" type personally.

Maneater = Lanfear. Period.
craig thrift
206. gagecreedlives
I dont think a movie would work without cutting out all the subtleties and shedding a few characters.

But a series I could see. Maybe even an anime one


That scene would be a classic
207. RobMRobM
Hi all. If we are going to make a serious run at Break the Thread II - Electric Boogaloo we're going to need a real subject that might generate the necessary 1,000 posts. How about the big one: trying to figure out the plot of The Gathering Storm and associated predictions. I'll start:

- Rand is focused on either getting a truce with Seanchan or wiping them out (as noted in KoD) and has shifted troops and Ashamon to Arad Doman and Illian.
- Tuon consults with her generals and sees big problems: the Wolf's big trap has sprung in Arad Doman (with Rand troops to boot); Tylee will warn her about the awesomeness that she found in Perrin in Ghealdean; her hubby, who ripped the Seanchan to shreds will be sitting in northern Alterra/Southern Andor; and Rand's armies, who defeated them once, have been reinforced and sitting in western Illian.
- Tuon will be advised that the best hope of a military win is more damane. Tylee got her Shaido Wise Ones; now is time to go for tower (per Egwene's dream). Seanchan will use Fists of Heaven (not mentioned in text, but read the defs at back) to have a lightning quick attack on White Tower. I'll leave to others how that will play out. (I can't have all the fun). But I do predict the attack will be largely unsuccessful and Tuon will agree to a truce with Rand - but the terms will be critical and I'll leave that to others (perhaps Tuon: "I insist that my husband will be in charge of the joint armies...." Rand: "No way." Tuon: "Perhaps you'll change your mind after you see him as he is a great general and grew up only a few hundred leagues from here"; Rand "Huh?")
- Egewene will be serving dinner to Elaida and her date, which should be very interesting - especially when the Seanchan crash the party.
- Mat will head off to ToG with Thom and Noel C, with Thom's harp, Aludra's strikers, and lots of iron (in what form??) to rescue M. (And Rand will be miffed because he'll want a battle council with Mat and Perrin and the former won't be there.) Rescue will be one of the key conclusions to the first book.
- Perrin will need to deal with the two sets of Aiel coming towards him (both friendly?) and with Galad's gang - with the Galad-Morgase and Galad-Berelain emotional fireworks .
- And something will have to be done with the 200K borderlanders army in southern Andor near Murandy hunting for Rand. Thoughts on how that will play out?
- and when will Gawyn have his fateful life/death meeting with Egwene as foretold? I say next book.

Sound like enough for a few hundred posts? Go to it. Rob
Richard Fife
208. R.Fife
Funny, I mentioned to Larry how I respected animes for not being afraid of telling a good story and not fit everything prettily into episodes, and while he cringed (not a fan of anime), he did grudgingly agree that the way america does TV is very restricting to telling a long-form story.

As far as a great example of a novel being turned into a show, I'd say "Twelve Kingdoms". It is a 7 series (intended) anime based on a 7 novel series by the same name. A complete opposite to that horrid Seeker thingie.

As to the movie, I would honestly like a visual aid and gateway drug for people who haven't read the books. Long as the movie is an enjoyable ride by itself, and not trying to crazy hard to include every little detail, I would be happy. The attempt to include "everything", I think, was part of the failure of D&D and Eragon.
209. RobMRobM
RFife - Eragon is a cautionary tale for "our" movie because I didn't think there there was any problem with the acting, visuals, effects or level of detail in the plot but there were big script problems - the story was "hollywoodized" and an entirely new, dumb, ending was crafted on for dramatic effect that sucked the life out of the story. I was appalled. The writers need to maintain the underlying heart of the story while making appropriate decisions to shorten and excise story lines. I hope they can do it with EOTW and not Eragon it.
John Massey
210. subwoofer
@Aiel, crap- basket. Did I mention that I didn't have enough time to proof my own posts. Thanks for the catch. meh. Not entirely sure about Mat. Yes, not everyone listens to country(warning here) but it works for me.
211. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
I really wouldn't know about Eragon. I've only seen the movie and it wasn't that bad. But then again, I was only paying attention to Sienna Guillory. And Jeremy Irons. I've found on the net that there was some departure from the original ending as written by the author. I didn't really read the book because I didn't want to be disappointed. The plot itself was largely formulaic anyway.
John Massey
212. subwoofer
Lanfear. As soon as Rand sees her he should be running or hurling lightening at her. Effectively.
John Massey
213. subwoofer
Eragon had its moments, but it was no LOTR. I know some people feel cheated by those movies, but they did keep the core of the story intact. Let Peter Jackson take a shot at this. And does anyone know about District-9 D-9? Um.... Randland could learn alot from PJ's example.
Jon Severinsson
214. jonno
odigity @197 and others:
Regarding motion picture version of WoT: I'm dreading the upcoming movie!

I mean, while the industry did managed to make a decent adaption of LotR, they had to cut extensively to do so, and they still end up with 11 hours 20 minutes of film for a 470 thousand words story. The WoT is less forgiving of cutting due to all the intermixed important storyline, and just tEotW is 305 thousand words. So to reach LotR level just tEotW would need at least 7 hours 20 minutes. The plan is, as far as I can find out, a standard 3 hours movie. Not going to work.

Myself I always thought that a series of miniseries would be the way to go. Basically make each book into 8 to 12 episodes of 60 to 90 minutes each, so that each WoT book gets the same screen time as the whole LotR got. Then we can start talking.

I've also been thinking on how to do an adaption. Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within convinced me that 100% CG was the only way to go. I don't think the weaves or PoVs are going to be very problematic, but internal dialogue is. Large chunks can be solved by having events happen on-screen instead of some character remembering them later, and all the internal dialogue that only serves for setting the mood can be done using subtle body language and similar instead, but there are some pure info-dump internal dialogues to. Most of these are reminders from previous books, which would be done using a separate "previously on the Wheel of Time" section at the beginning of each episode instead. For the rest, the adaption would have to add other scenes where these things are explicitly mentioned to compensate. I've been actively thinking on this when listening to the audiobooks the last two times over, and I don't find many truly problematic scenes any longer.

Nudity is a non-issue. While US of A is still overly prude as a society, in most of the industrialized world the nudity level of WoT is not considered excessive. For example, here in Sweden, the nudity and sex in the WoT would only give an adaption an 11+ rating (e.g. you have to be 11 years old to watch), while some episodes would get a 15+ rating for excessive violence and gore. As I don't think the target audience of the WoT goes much below 15, and not below 11 at all, that isn't a problem. (If you are below 11, go for Harry Potter instead. Those movies are rated 7+.)

As for time table. I don't think it's necessarily 5 years of. If the project started today with the amounts of money you are talking about the first season (book) could "air" in fall 2010. Though I don't think the "air to web" market is going to be quite ready by then, and traditional TV channels are not ready for a 100% CG fantasy epic, so for a financial success, five years is more plausible. If no one has done it in ten years time, I think a fan-production is feasible, given 10-20 computer and/or computer graphics savy fans giving it a year or two to make first season.

In fact, if it comes to that, I might hunt some of you down so we can do it ourselves. Screw Intelectual Property Law. (Did I mention I'm a Pirate Party member? Well, now I did!)
Jon Severinsson
215. jonno
R.File @ 208:
I'm no anime fan either, but I have to agree with the rest you said. Hollywood-style productions, be they movies or TV-series, are very limited. The least limited Anglo-Saxon (not American, because most good ones are British or Canadian) format is the mini-series. Semi-episodic, but not standalone. No one expects to catch part 4 of a mini-series and "get it" if they didn't watch the first 3 episodes, but S01E04 of a TV-series has to appeal to first time watchers as well.
The same is true for most anime too, but I don't like the storytelling or visual format of anime, which is why I want photorealistic CG instead...
216. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
The thing about KoD is that there's a specific timejump between the time that Egwene is supposedly serving Elaida dinner, and the end where Tarna etal visit the Black Tower for some warders(check the WOT timeline). Most of the significant events anticipated at the Tower revolve around this first confrontation between the two(the expected Seanchan attack, the confrontation w/ the Black Ajah, the Tower reunification) and yet, none of the sisters' POV's indicate any significant events happening. No attack, no purge, no nothing.
Ofer Nave
217. odigity
jonno@214: blah blah

That's what I said. :)

Screw Intelectual Property Law. (Did I mention I'm a Pirate Party member? Well, now I did!)

Nice! (Did I mention I'm an anarchist?)
218. JamesEdJones
198 Subwoofer

You've got the right idea for Mat, but the wrong song. He's straight out of Maverick, and would need Clint Black's "Good Run of Bad Luck" or Tracy Lawrence's "Renegades Rebels and Rogues". I mean, the lyric, 'Eyes of fire, Hearts of gold' is 100% Mat.

163 Odigity

We all want a movie, but the main issue is the age of a live action cast. The whole saga lasts 2.5 - 3 years. In fact, Crown of Swords or Path of Daggers (sorry, I can't remember which) lasted 10-DAYS.

It would have to be CG. I also think the best way to go about it would be an HBO or SHO series with a wide release movie each year between seasons. First movie would be the battle for the Stone in TDR. Second movie would be the lead up and resolution of Dumai's Wells in LOC. Third movie would be the cleansing of saidin, with a few alternate views from other characters, in WH. Fourth, and final, movie (hopefully) would be Tarmon Gaidin.

You just can't have it on standard TV in the US without removing a ton of violence and nudity, and pretty much ruining the story. And some of the books, while insanely long-winded would not last a season. For example, Alviarin considers Mesaana's embroidery for several pages. That would take 10 seconds on the screen. It just doesn't translate directly from pages to minutes.

All in all, I really want to see a movie just to satisfy my curiosity.
John Massey
219. subwoofer
Hmmmm.... CG.... has potential...@Jonno&odigity. Who would play the voices? The core of it all would be the scripting. CG or not, there would have to be some massive edits to get the story arcs workable and not have it go on to 20 hours per book.

Unless my option C idea holds- please- no eggs- That show was based on crappy books, and has departed from the books, which would be my worry for the Wheel. It starts out as something, then gets run into the ground to make it marketable.

If the books took an average person- a really long time to get through, how do you distill all that plot into a few hour movie?

And there is all the new story arcs RJ keeps bringing up. There would have to be huge prologs just to give a sense of history. The Seanchan, the Tower, how to explain about Sadin/Saidar.... hmmmm.
John Massey
220. subwoofer
@JamesEdJones... ahhh. Good points... How did you work out the time lines so well? What about the first fight with the Shaido? What about the trip to Rhuidean? Tower of Genji? The first time the Horn is blown?
221. RobMRobM
While I'd be personnally disappointed, I don't see nudity as a big barrier to a successful film. They can just shift to smallclothes in the Aiel sweat tents, gai'shan (post-capture) and Avi sleeping in Rand's bedrooms in TSR and TFoH; and be a little less revealing with the di'covele outfits. That has to cover 95% of the problem, correct? Rob
222. JamesEdJones
220 Subwoofer

I have to admit, the timelines resulted from foolish optimism. After finishing COS, I was marginally satisfied. Primarily, because I believed the growing delay between books was an anomaly for RJ. When I finished POD, I was stunned at the lack of events. So, I tracked the passage of days for those stories. When I realized that one of them lasted 10 days, which is a week in WOT measurements, I seriously debated not buying any more until the series was finished.

Thankfully, my brother and my dad are both huge fans, and our ongoing debates led me back to WH on the day it was released. The cleansing of saidin reaffirmed everything for me.

Outside of Tarmon Gaidin, I think everything would be better on the big screen, but nothing NEEDS to be there. EVERYTHING, though, needs to be filmed with the same quality. Also, LOTR really displayed Jackson's brilliance in how literature should be handled on the screen. All of the description that Tolkien included in the novels when introducing weapons and armor were matters of moments in the movies, but Jackson never sacrificed on props or special effects.

RJ's descriptions are even more insane, but they should flow seamlessly on the screen. One of the concerns that no one else seems to have addressed is the introduction of Gray Men. RJ's level of detail allowed him to slip the shadow's assasins into the text with such subtlety that many readers often had to reread the previous few paragraphs whenever he introduced them (every time, for me). How do you hide that on TV?
Lannis .
223. Lannis
K... my shot at Rand's anthem... it's got a nice melancholy sound to it... and of course the line "I'm not crazy... or anything."

So... let me get this straight... the last time Leigh left we had tutus and zombies, twitches and shakes, and this time we have pirates and anarchists, movies and theme songs...

Hrm... Leigh? Please come home!
224. cps2195
Happy B-day Leigh!
Coincidentally my wife and I are celebrating a birthday in our house this week but instead of Beaches and cocktails ours involves diaper changes, crying and middle of the night feedings. Never the less I wouldn't change my "celebration" for anything else in the world.

As far as the WOT movie goes I don't see how this will work in any way, shape or form. If you do CG you eliminate 80% of the potential market. FF the spirits within bombed at the box office so from a financial standpoint this would be a terrible model to use.

If you make a live action movie it would need to be a series but the question would be how many movies do you need to tell the tale? I don't think you could do it in a trilogy. Think about it almost five books per 2-3 hour movie? Can you think of all the things that would need to be cut? As far as a movie per book goes we would need 14 movies to complete the series. This would be almost impossible due to the length of production. So far the Harry Potter movies have been being made for a decade now and they are only half the size of WOT! Let's not forget that WOT can't compete with the level of HP interest so it seems highly unlikely a studio would commit the same level of resources that have been committed to HP.

The best thing would be a miniseries just because it gives you more time to tell the tale but in every miniseries I have ever seen the quality of production is mediocre at best. I remember when NBC made a big deal about the Gulliver's Travels miniseries a few years back and all the special effects looked cheesey. WOT is very effects laden and in a miniseries all the "sets" (Aiel waste, the blight, tear etc..etc..) would have to be green screened due to the ridiculous costs of trying to find locations to shoot.

All in all I think the problems are insurmountable. I don't think Red Eagle will ever actually produce a movie/miniseries and if they do it will be an embarassment to the series and to RJ.
225. JamesEdJones
Okay, bear with me on this, because I don't think any of the lyrics actually apply. But the music is totally Perrin.

You'd change the lyrics to reflect the blacksmith apprentice growing into the Lord of the Two Rivers and Saldea. And, in the background, you would have the images and rythmic beating of the hammer on steel as Perrin gathers the shards of the sword that could not be broken and reforges them into the hammer he wears at his hip.
Maggie M
226. Eswana
Rob @207
good plan.

We already know from the cover blurb that tGS will focus mostly on Rand and Egwene, though I'm sure other characters will get arcs too. Brandon has said there are 21 POVs in this book.

I would also be interested in a Nynaeve & Semhirage mini-arc, since Sem. is a prisoner now and Nynaeve might be able to get some good Healing knowledge out of her. I wonder if Nynaeve could bring herself to use an a'dam on another Forsaken? However, they'd have to be a tad more careful this time, to prevent her escaping. Semirhage with a personal grudge against you = bad news bears.

I love the Tuon/Rand conversation you alluded too. That would be sweet.

Egwene's plot, I would imagine, will focus mostly on the White Tower's Great Purge (as it was called in her Accepted test) of the Black sisters and getting rid of Elaida. Mesanna's identity will likely be revealed, as well. Also, I really hope one of those stubborn women figures out that in order for Siuan and Leane to be restored to full strength they need to be Healed from their stilling by a man. Which might require them being still and re-healed. Man, that would suck.

Honestly, the Perrin-Faile-Berelain-Galad-Morgase thread can sit on the back burner for this book for me. We've had a LOT of them recently, and I would prefer we focus more on Rand, Egwene, and maybe Mat instead this time.

Since Rand has lost a hand (etc, from the end of KoD) he's probably a pretty good place for Sorilea and Cadsuane to teach him laughter and tears. This needs to happen ASAP, for his sake & the world's.

As far as the timelines go; I wouldn't be surprised if Elayne's twins are born before Tarmon Gaidon. This means that there has to be nine months between the end of Winter's Heart and the beginning of aMoL Part 3. Maybe I'm wrong, but this means things will have to speed up a LOT; after all, as JamesEdJones said above, CoT covered a period of ten DAYS.
227. JamesEdJones
Was it COT? Woah, I was totally off. I'll have to actually take part in the reread to avoid this stuff. Dangit!
Maggie M
228. Eswana
I'd have to check the Chronology to be sure, but since most of CoT overlapped with WH it's no more than 10 days. Though PoD is quite short, as well. Anyway, if Elayne's going to have her babies before TG things really have to MOVE.
Ofer Nave
229. odigity
JamesEdJones@218: We all want a movie, but the main issue is the age of a live action cast. The whole saga lasts 2.5 - 3 years. In fact, Crown of Swords or Path of Daggers (sorry, I can't remember which) lasted 10-DAYS.

It would have to be CG.

Ok, you're the second person to reply to my post (where I say it must be 100% CG) in order to tell me that it must be 100% CG.

Is this some kind of inside joke? :)
Jon Severinsson
230. jonno
odigity @ 217:
That's what I said. :)
It was the fact that your thoughts was so close to mine that made me have to post mine too...

Nice! (Did I mention I'm an anarchist?)
Well, now you did. :)

JamesEdJones @ 218:
We all want a movie, but the main issue is the age of a live action cast.
Well, character age != actor age. But with CG that is one less thing to worry about.

As for season length, yes it's true that sometimes 10 pages only turns into a few seconds on-screen, but other times you could do en entire episode of a single chapter. So while season length would necessarily be proportional to book length, I'm 100% confident that each book could easily be made into at least 500 minutes runtime, the minimum for a miniseries-season as I envision it.

subwoofer @ 219:
Who would play the voices?
This is mostly a non-issue, as voice actors is relatively easy to come by, and much cheaper than live acting. And in the 10-years horizon (for a fan-made production), it is very possible that voice synthesis makes it a complete non-issue...

The core of it all would be the scripting. CG or not, there would have to be some massive edits to get the story arcs workable and not have it go on to 20 hours per book.
Very true. Note however that I am aiming for 8-16 hours per season, just so that no arcs have to be removed or seriously cut. As for how to manage that many arcs at once, well, the more convoluted soap operas¹ do manage that year after year without any problems. Some edits are required though, for example there will be a need to cut between arcs more often than is done in the middle to late books, so that all arcs are visited at least once in each episode, and the prologues (and "pickup" chapters such as the recently re-read chapter 38) would have to be split and spread out between the episodes a bit, and all those pesky "I tell myself in my head what happened a few days ago" (such as the start of the recently re-read chapter 40) has to be broken out and made stand-alone. Mostly this is book-keeping, making sure that the right parts get put in the right episode in the right order. This will be very time-consuming for the script writers, but in no way impossible.

1: In fact, I have heard WoT being called "epic fantasy's answer to a soap opera" more than once, just because of the many interconnected story-arches...

If the books took an average person- a really long time to get through, how do you distil all that plot into a few hour movie?
You really don't. Trying to do that is a recipie for disaster. Which is why I want a series of mini-series, not a set of movies...

And there is all the new story arcs RJ keeps bringing up. There would have to be huge prologues just to give a sense of history. The Seanchan, the Tower, how to explain about Sadin/Saidar.... hmmmm.
You do it the same way as in the books: The more knowledgeable characters tell the basics to the less knowledgeable characters, and the viewer/reader figure the rest out along the way.

JamesEdJones @ 222:
Regarding greymen:
Simple, you make a habit of letting largely irrelevant background stuff happen out-of-focus in the background. Then you just put the graymen out-of-focus in the background.

cps2195 @ 224
If you do CG you eliminate 80% of the potential market.
If you are talking about pixar-style CG, perhaps, but not if you are talking photorealistic CG. Just call it 100% special effects and people will rally to see it...

FF the spirits within bombed at the box office so from a financial standpoint this would be a terrible model to use.
FF:tSW bombed because it had a week story that was impossible to follow if you hadn't already played all the FF games before it. Neither is a problem with tEotW...

As for length, I completely agree that a trilogy for tWoT is impossible, and even 14 movies is too little, while being to much for Hollywood to invest in.

And regarding mini-series. Yes, there are thousands of low-budget cheesy miniseries out there. But there are also quite a few really good ones, with good story, acting, and special effects. So while movies and TV-series would be instant failure for WoT, a miniseries could work, if done right, and with enough budget for special effects.
231. JamesEdJones
229 Odigity

No Joke. We just agree with you... a lot. :)

230 Jonno

Great idea for the Grey Men. And don't forget that mini-series have only gone down hill recently. And it's mainly due to content. Shogun was an awesome mini-series. As was North and South. IMHO Hollywood doesn't want to miss out on big-screen and DVD profits if they have a halfway decent story. Unless you're talking about the Superbowl, they still believe they will make more money on the big screen. It's all about greed.
Alice Arneson
232. Wetlandernw
We all want a movie...

*runs screaming away to hide under the bed*

I really dread every time I find out someone is making a movie of one of my favorite books. They always have to say "based on the book" and usually turn out to be loosely based on. Even with fans doing it, you'd have to do editorial cuts, because there are things that you simply cannot put on screen no matter how good your CG is.

What you folks are talking about (cg miniseries series) is probably the only way to do any kind of justice to the story. But I still cringe at the thought, because in general my imagination is much richer than any CG effects you can come up with, and once I've seen it I'm stuck with your visualizations.

There are a few scenes I'd love to see on the big screen (IMAX would be preferred) but in general I'd rather not see it at all. JMO.
Alice Arneson
233. Wetlandernw
224. cps2195

Congratulations! Assuming you have time and your eyes can focus enough to read this... Lets hear it for sleep deprivation! ;)
234. cps2195
Can you name one CG movie (outside of kids movies) that have achieved success? Movies like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (which was almost all CG) failed miserably. I assume you are someone who likes Anime and similar things because those seem to be the only people who defend the CG approach.

Too many people see CG and think "kiddie" while I know this isn't the case millions of potential moviegoers do and won't watch it. Remember in order to be a success it will need to appeal to a mass market not just CG fans and WOT fans.

As for the minisereis I really think a live action minisereis would be the most expensive miniseries ever produced. Think about it. In just the eye of the world we visit Emond's Field, Taren Ferry, Whitebridge, Shadar Logoth, Camelyn, The Ways, The Borderlands, The Blight, The Green Man's place (if I missed anywhere I'm sorry just doing this from memory.) Know I know some places could be cut but almost every book has a bunch of huge sets.

Let us not forget about the battle scenes as well. Some of these are absolutely monstrous in size and scope. How does a minisereies do this on a limited budget? Many of the battles are similar to the LOTR trilogy in terms of size but that trilogy had a budget of like 300 million dollars. The most expensive miniseries ever produced was Band Of Brothers with a budget of 125 million. Let's remember that it had Spielberg and Hanks as it's producers which is why the studio gave it such a large budget.

Wot would be lucky to get a 50 million budget. In fact who think Red Eagle could even afford this investment?
John Massey
235. subwoofer
@JamesEdJones- loved Shogun, Noble House, IT, bunch of others. May be a case for it to start out as a mini series and then parlay into a show... or something. Seems to me that has happened before.

Jonno- you are strong with the force I see.

Wetlandernw- I remember that you are in the camp of LOTR-not so good so I do understand where you are coming from. After some burbon, my imagination becomes quite vivid too. There will be some disappointment but for me, I find that a visual medium might drive more people to the books, like HP or the dreaded Twilight.

I'm not tryin' to say... just sayin'
John Massey
236. subwoofer
@cps2195- I was trying to put it nicely( after my last few blunders at being subtle) but exactly. There are certain connotations attached to CG- either the perception is kiddie or geeky/gamer. Either way, we loose out and it is a flop and probably won't be seen through to completion. Which would be really annoying.
237. JamesEdJones

No explanation necessary.
Ofer Nave
238. odigity
cps2195@234: Can you name one CG movie (outside of kids movies) that have achieved success? Movies like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (which was almost all CG) failed miserably. I assume you are someone who likes Anime and similar things because those seem to be the only people who defend the CG approach.

Too many people see CG and think "kiddie" while I know this isn't the case millions of potential moviegoers do and won't watch it. Remember in order to be a success it will need to appeal to a mass market not just CG fans and WOT fans.

I don't think you understand what we (me, jonno, JamesEdJones, etc) are saying when we say photorealistic CG. What we mean is using computers to create photorealistic images. It will look real. You will not be able to tell the difference. It will not be billed as a "CG" film, like Pixar or anime. It will be just like a live action film/series... it just that the actors and settings will never have actually existed in the real world. But it will look like they did. If it doesn't, it's not photorealistic CG.

That's why we keep bringing up FF:TSW. It's the only attempt to do so that I know of, and it was pretty good for a first try.
239. JamesEdJones
Wow. Lotta good stuff on this post. I was just scanning through, and I found what I thought I'd have to go home to find. Thank you, Odigity. At 107, he drops the 4 day marker for Rand in his room after thinking he forced himself on Min.

Fain sent him back to his room for another two days before he woke up and concluded the novel. If you read carefully (not that anyone else is really concerned about this, lol), you'll see that only 4 days passed before Min found out about Herid Fel's death in the first part of the book.

10 stinkin' days.

And maybe if we offered 300 or Jurrasic Park as examples of CG movies they might get the idea. I mean, who really thought Jeff Goldblum was the star of Jurrasic Park? It was a decade ago when those big, cuddly lizzards thundered into our hearts. ;)
240. cps2195

While FF:TSW did look pretty good (as you said yourself) it still looked CG maybe the technology is a little better but how can anyone assume it is where it needs to be. Also FF:TSW cost over 100 million to make and only grossed 32 million. What studio is going to take that chance when the closest thing to compare it to was such a huge bomb?

wetlandernw@233: Thanks! At least any mistakes I make can easily be blamed on sleep deprivation.
John Massey
241. subwoofer
@237- yur gonna burn- fitting- but yur gonna burn;)

Jon Severinsson
242. jonno
cps2195 @ 234
Can you name one CG movie (outside of kids movies) that have achieved success?
Of course I can't. There has only ever been one attempt (FF:TSW) at what I'm talking about, and that one failed due to a bad story. I still believe in the concept though, it just has to be done with a better story, such as tEotW...

I assume you are someone who likes Anime and similar things because those seem to be the only people who defend the CG approach.
FYI: I hate anime. To little realism in that kind of animation. Classic Disney animations and similar is much better, but still relegated to kids movies imho.

But I was really impressed by Final Fantasy: The Spirits within, even though the story was week and mostly incomprehensible (I never played the games). It's an entirely different kind of CG, and even if FF:TSW still had long to go for real photorealism, it was close enough that I caught myself several times thinking "How did they pull that off?" for a minute or so until I remembered it was all CG...

As for the miniseries I really think a live action miniseries would be the most expensive miniseries ever produced.
Oh, yes. To be done right, each season (book) would need almost as much money as the entire LotR trilogy. As that's not going to happen, live action WoT is doomed, and CG is the only realistic option.

JamesEdJones @ 239
Yes, Jurasic Park isn't to far of either, except that we also want to replace the humans and the island, not just the dinosaurs, with CG.

cps2195 @ 240
Yes, FF:TSW still had some way to go, but that was eight years ago, and still pretty darn close.

As for finances, US$ 32 milion was only in the US, worldwide it grossed US$ 85 million. And to this DVD sales and syndication licenses (undisclosed sums) has to be added. So while it was a loss, it's not quite as bad as you make it out to be, and it was a pilot case. The first time is always the most expensive.
243. RebelLives
You know the whole arthurian reference is why I read these posts. While I had noticed the similarity of the names, obviously Galad and Gawyn jump out at you if you at least know a little bit about the Arthur story along with Artur Hawkwing. I never would have made the connection of Egwene or some of the others. I never think to make those kinds of connections when I'm just reading for fun.

I don't really think that a movie could do one of these books justice. A mini-series would be much better. The problem there is that the studios don't make as much money off of a mini-series as a feature movie. While I would much rather see live-action, animation may be the better way to go. A TV series would be ok as long as they stayed close to the books and not worry about whether or not the episode was stand alone. Legend of the Seeker is a complete joke. Raimi turned it into a Hercules or Xena.
Alice Arneson
244. Wetlandernw
Of course, the biggest problem with any kind of video production is the funding, and the fact that he who provides the funding gets the editorial fiat. So unless a bunch of fans can put up the $$$ and bribe Harriet to take it on, you're stuck with the priorities of whoever is sponsoring it. Then they decide that it needs more of this and less of that, and let's add this little twist that RJ never thought of, and there it goes twisting right down the big swirly. You need a Peter Jackson, who is a huge fan of the story already, and even then he has to bow to certain external realities.

For the record, I love Tolkein's books. I also enjoy the movies. But they are definitely "based on" adaptations, because there's just no way to do it full justice on film. So with each of those movies (as well as Narnia, HP and others) I had to grit my teeth and see it once just to figure out what they screwed up and reconcile myself to it. After that, I could go again and enjoy the movie for itself, setting aside my own visualizations of the story. Even then, I have to do a few mental gymnastics each time I read LOTR to get Elijah Wood's face out of my head. (I don't have to struggle with Lothlorien at all, because the movie version totally had nothing to do with my reality and is easily set aside.) But I still say the movies didn't do justice to the original stories. Ditto with Narnia and HP.
Alice Arneson
245. Wetlandernw

I like your proposal for reaching 1000, but it has one problem. It takes actual thought to come up with anything worth posting! Not that worth is usually a criteria for what gets posted, but that's a real elephant and I don't know where to start. Let me think about it for a while... Wednesday is still a long ways away.

Query: is it the number of posts that broke TSR10, or the amount of text?
246. cps2195
FF:TSW was such a failure it caused square-enix USA to close it's doors. At the time Square-Enix USA was considered the most advanced CG studio in the world. The failure of FF:TSW could have caused many studios to back away from this technology. We have no idea if someone else has made alot of progress or not. It is just an assumption that the technology has advanced significantly.

AS for the FF games none of them (except for the FFVII spinoffs) are set in the same world or have have the same characters. Each installment stands alone. FF:TSW also has no tie in to any of the games. In fact the only thing it has in common with any of the games is the FF name.

Still I'm of the belief that a CG WOT would be a tough sell to the general moviegoing public. It seems to me that that would set the first movie/season whatever up for financial failure and then the rest woould never be made. I'll go on record and say we will never see a complete WOT saga in speakie-picture form.
Galen Brinn
247. GatheringStorm
Hmmm...went home for the weekend for my birthday and missed way too much to try posting a coherent thought in here. At least one that hasn't already been knocked around a few times already...

Bring on Wendesday.
Blake Engholm
248. UncrownedKing
@ 245

I would assume it would be the amount of text that broke it. It was taking large amounts of time just for the whole page to load. the 800+ posts contained some lengthy ones (Fiction-Fiction, Verin Theories, etc.) but that aside, I think that it only has to do with text
Kurt Lorey
249. Shimrod
Well, Happy Birthday to you too, Gathering Storm!
John Pigott
250. AbEnd
Now that we're at a Perrin chapter, I can finally ask a question that's been bothering me for years:

Why is the WOTFAQ so light on Perrin material and information? He doesn't even get a discussion in the Ta'veren section.

Leigh, J'accuse! (but happy belated birthday anyways)
251. RobMRobM
@245. Take your time - we have until November. LOL.

@226. That's the type of thinking I'm talking about. :-)

Semirhage! Either with Nyn or Cad could be interesting and important to plot. Might this be the source of what Cad is going to teach Rand and the Ashaman....

Elayne! What is up with her other than having her gain the Lion throne in a pretty ceremony, getting her armies organized for TG and getting a bigger belly? The intersection of Galad/Morgase might affect her storyline as well.

Rand! I forgot that his eyesight is going to go. Will he fake seeing? Can he continue to channel? Who will use the choedan kal when the time comes - Logain? Narishma? Also - they now know he has LTT in his head? Will his people think he is going craaazzzy...?

etc. Keep them coming, with more focus than I've given appreciated, of course.

Jon Severinsson
252. jonno
Wetlandernw @ 244:
Regarding money. Yes, doing a series such as what we envision takes money, even with 100% CG. Doing it right today would probably cost $100 milion just to get started (first book). Then add annother $50 milion per book for the rest of the series. Finding a fan with this much money to risk is going to be hard...

However, some really impresive short films are already being made on zero budget. Elephants Dream is an 11 minutes semi-photorealistic shorfilm clompletely void of story from 2006 and Big Buck Bunny is a 10 minutes traditional CG shorfilm with a great story from 2008, both made with zero budget. Fan made photorealistic longfilms aren't too far off now. So in 10 years time, who can say...

Regarding adaptions, they will always feature changes, simply becouse what is good in a book and what is good on a screen isn't always the same thing. If Jackson had followed the books as if they were the script, the LotR movies wouldn't have been half as good as they were. And they were good, even if I sometimes feel they shouldn't be allowed to be called LotR...

That said, I do think WoT could be made a good mini-series and still stay much closer to the books than the LotR movies did, simply becouse the WoT story is much closer to screenplay than the LotR story, probably becouse RJ was more influenced by film than JRR Tolkien was...

cps2195 @ 246:
Yes, FF:TSW was a loss, and a company that puts all it's money in one project tends to go under when that project generates a loss, even if it only was a couple of millions...

And if not even FF fans get the story any better than I did, I can defenitely see why it bombed. Story-wise it was poor, but the story is what would not be re-used for a WoT project...

And whatever method is used to get WoT to the sceen, follow-through is going to be the big elephant in the room. Unless tEotW becomes a real hit, we are probably not get to see the series through to TG.

That said, I still think a photorealistic CG mini-series is our best bet, and the Red Eagle movie that is in the works are going to fail misserably.

P.S. It's getting late over here and my brain is staring to shut down. Please forgive me if I stop making sense...
255. LindaL
Okay, I actually AM a little twitchy, which is why I'm posting rather thank lurking:

@216 AlreadyMad...

I think it's entirely possible that Tarna and the others wouldn't necessarily know about any coup in the tower. No one in the red Ajah in the tower knows how to travel.

Another tangent. When Duhara (or was it Doesine??) approached Elayne as her WT advisor in KOD, did anyone else have an ah-ha she's Mesaana moment?
256. LindaL
Ooops, Well except for Tarna, but Elaida wouldn't have allowed her to share the weave for traveling with any other sisters.
257. miximixi
I leave you guys alone for a couple of days and you almost break my favourite place? Blood and bloody ashes!!

RE: The infamous Part 10 - Could actually open it today. Copied just the unformatted text to a word document. Leigh's part was just 12 pages. The 845 comments took up 240 pages. 240 pages? New Spring was 423 pages. You do the math.

Loved every crazy word of it!!

PS. Happy Birthday, GatheringStorm!
Blake Engholm
258. UncrownedKing
Its revealed in KoD that the Choden Kal on Tremalking was melted. Or at least the ball was melted.

This is the reason for the mass suicide going on over there on that island. With that said, I don't think the choden kal (at least the female version) is going to be used.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
259. Freelancer
RE: Visual production of WOT

As to handling plot arcs across multiple episodes, the best two examples I've seen in TV series are Alias and Heroes. Although in both cases I didn't always agree with the specific clips they chose to review before each episode, the method is a good one for keeping the viewer in tune with what's about to happen as connected to what has gone before.

While I know of no miniseries that has employed high enough production quality to do justice to WOT, the SCI-FI channel production of Dune was excellent in visual scope. And yet, with few exceptions, it ruined my internal visuals of most of the story. Some things were just too gaudy, others too vanilla, but other than the Fremen Seitches, everything was far different from my imagined scenery.

That was completely untrue of LoTR. Jackson's visuals came so close to what Tolkien made me see, that I almost overlooked the missing or "adjusted" plot points.

Unfortunately, I didn't read Eragon until after I'd seen the movie, so I already had those images buried. I shouldn't have read it at all once I'd seen the movie, I knew what would happen. I thought the movie was very good, aside from two obviously forced plot points, but was sorely disappointed once I learned how much of the book was damaged on film.

So I will go on record saying that given the perfect production environment, and an executive producer who is 100% committed to the integrity of the written saga, it could be done as odigity believes. Anyone who has spent more than a few hours around a studio, whether major or indy, knows that there's no perfect setting, and the budget overrules the screenwriter in nearly every case.

However, ignoring that for now, I still believe that TEotW would have to be done as a live-action production, maybe two very long movies, maybe named "From the Two Rivers", and "To the Blight". That wouldn't be as expensive or as production difficult as all-CG, it would bring a larger crowd of new fans to the books, and multiply interest in the rest of the story. Then you continue the saga in the "series of mini-series" mode, all CG, but using the imagery of the actors from the movie as the character models.


A big location you left out of your list is the Tarwin's Gap scene where Rand uses the Power of the EYE to decimate the trolloc hordes and give the Sheinarans the victory. Easily as large as any of the LoTR battle array scenes.
260. cps2195
Square was one of the largest VG publishers in the world. Their USA brnach that closed worked on CG animation. The company could have absorbed this (much like Sony has been doing with their gaming division.)

In a way we seem to agree. Neither one of us believes the whole story will be told.

I just think that if they try they will do more harm then good.
Galen Brinn
261. GatheringStorm
I concur, UncrownedKing. I don't think the female Choedan Kal will be of any significance from this point on. There are no (known)functional access keys; one in Tanchico is broken, and the one Rand had is now melted - as is the statue itself.

However, the male Choedan Kal is still intact, along with its (only known) access key.

And thanks, subwoofer!
262. gnewell
On the movie front - does anyone think that the tech used for Beowulf could used instead of the cg for a WOT movie?
263. Freelancer

You are correct. Not only is the female sa'angreal damaged, but the male access key ter'angreal Rand was using is destroyed. However, there's a thing that I've always wondered about.

There were two female access keys. Egwene nearly gets trapped in a Power feedback loop by the one in Tanchico during her T'a'R visit hunting for THE THING THAT CAN HURT RAND. If there are two female keys, where's the second male key? If the male sa'angreal in Cairhien didn't also melt, then that at least would still be viable.
264. Freelancer

Beowulf did a very good job of melding motion capture with CG and more traditional film FX, and works fine for a single movie. But for an extended epic, you still need the actors to do everything, even if you don't need the location, costume authenticity, etc. That would still be prohibitive for a saga of WOT's scope.

BTW, I didn't like the Beowulf movie, but that had nothing to do with the visual production work.
265. jlyman
The Final Fantasy movie was really well done CG for the time. But maybe we are forgetting about a few other, more recent, CG movies. Dinosaur (combination of CG characters and real life backgrounds), Polar Express, and Beowulf among others. Granted that some of the styles would not be ideal for WoT, but it shows that the technology is coming into the forefront more and more. And it can be quite good. If the entire series was to be adapted, this would be the way to go. Definitely.

I would really like to see the story done with real actors in real sets with real grit and grime. Though CG has made great strides and Beowulf looked really cool, it still lacks a little something that you just can't get with CG alone... yet, anyway. As for myself I would not mind seeing the first three books done as a live action trilogy. TDR seems to be a pretty good ending for a stand alone story.

I always try to remember that books and movies HAVE to be treated as totally separate entities. Like everyone says, you can't put every detail of these books into a film otherwise the theatres would be serving us breakfast, lunch and dinner during a single showing of the film. It just isn't feasible. I know that all of us have favorite scenes, characters, etc. that we would just love to see on the big screen, but the fact is, much of those will be reduced to a single line, a look, or cut completely.

But if you can learn to separate yourself from the book and enjoy the movie for what it is, then you will come out of the theatre feeling good. Knowing that the book was probably better, but that you finally got to see Lan take down a dozen Trollocs while Moiraine toasted a dozen more with her fireballs. That's why I can really enjoy the LOTR movies, but my wife's aunt despises them. She can't make that separation.

Essentially it comes down to the spirit of the story and the characters, not the nit-picky little details.

Just my two cents.
266. happi
I personally would prefer to see a cable-based series. A great example was the recently concluded Battlestar Galactica series.
268. douglasm
As I recall it was the female access key that broke. I think the female Choedan Kal and its access key broke simultaneously from the same stress. The male Choedan Kal and its access key in Rand's possession are both intact.
Joseph Blaidd
269. SteelBlaidd
Nifty tech for making a CG WoT movie that much easier.

Off Topic: Good news we have first baby pictures of kido number 2 t-minus 27 weeks. :D
270. JamesEdJones
268 Douglasm

The male access key is definitely intact. It should play a big role in Tarmon Gaidin when Rand, with 5 other guys, links with 66 women to form the infamous 6-66 .

Just wanted to throw that out there to see if anyone has some thoughts they'd like to share...
Tess Laird
271. thewindrose
From Winter's Heart `Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a women. The face was wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. The male figure was whole, and already tucked awy in her saddlebags.'
So will Rand have to beg Cadsuane to use it? Only if you behave!!! I may need to sp..k you a bit first.
Will he be able to use it, if he loses his sight and has just the one hand?

BTW - thanks for your insight to the Thom / Bayle nongreeting PersonoftheDragons and Confutus.

And a Happy B-day to you Gatheringstorm:)
272. sinfulcashew
(Here is another byte or two to add to the hoped for 1000?)

happi @266
I tried to watch BSG when it first came out. I was really disappointed. Never watched it again. I loved the Cylons from the first series.(go figure)

I don't think I would try to watch ANY of WOT movies, as the books have too much detail to be able to put it to the screen. A lot of our favorite parts would be messed with or left out. A big no no!
Things that WE think are important to the development of the film wouldn't be there!
John Fitzingo
273. Xandar01
234. cps2195

The number of sets shouldn't be that big of a problem with the extensive location green screening going on nowadays.

Remember SciFi's TinMan?
That was 6hs, and 20 million. IMDB reports nine filming locations, and they went all over the place in that movie; farm town, the road, forests, underground city, ice location, and various castles.

While I think the ending of TinMan kinda sucked, EoTW would do fine in a mini series.
John Fitzingo
274. Xandar01
@ 55. fuddy

I think everyone here cheated. OOHH OOHH my favorite scene from book such and such, pulling stuff we haven't even covered in our reread. Yeah, we all know those cool scenes.

Let's challenge ourselves, what are your top 5 or so scenes from the beginning to now, TSR CH 41.

I've always enjoyed the moments that Rand first channels, especially the Four Kings incident. You could really feel the desperation there.
275. Randalator
jonno @242

FYI: I hate anime. To little realism in that kind of animation. Classic Disney animations and similar is much better, but still relegated to kids movies imho. don't really have a clue what anime really is, right?

Anime is not just Dragonball or Pokemon. It's basically just a name for animated shows, miniseries and feature films from asian countries (mostly but not exclusively Japan).

Saying that there is "too little realism in that kind of animation" is like saying "there is not enough realism in american movies" just because all you know are National Lampoon's Vacation comedies.

Just like in western feature films there is a wide stylistic and thematical variety in anime from goofy, heavily stylized over-the-top (kids) stuff to dark, gritty, realistic works of art.

Jin Roh
Blood - The Last Vampire
Monster (Heidelberg scene)
comparison to real Heidelberg

I believe that a realistic WoT-animated-series (e.g. one miniseries of ~30-50 22-minute-episodes per book, preferrably CG-enhanced animation, not full CG) is the only way to adequately translate the books into film. Time limits (and thus unnecessary cuts) are not much an issue and it can be adapted in great detail without a billion-dollar-budget.

And since western animation business is more or less limited to kids-movies sometimes with a certain yeah-adults-can-watch-it-too-appeal (Disney, Pixar, Dreamworks) there is only anime. Asia has long since figured out that animation can be used to do literally every genre for every target audience imaginable...
Don Johnson
276. Paracelsus
To jonno:

You mentioned a couple fan-produced CG clips.

Does anyone here think that there will ever be a software program that will be sophisticated enough to let an average person create their own CG movie without a huge investment?

The program could have generic templates for buildings, landscapes, and characters that could be customized. Updates could also be added to the system. Special effects would be included and based on the physics model used. Pre-programmed animations such as walking, talking, punching, etc. could be programmed in. Someone could add new character movements with their own home blue-screen technology.

To make a battle scene, all someone might have to do is customized the armies, pick out what kind of animations they want the characters to do, outline the path of the weapons, and the special effects.

The more skill someone had, the more realistic they could make the scene. Voices can taped in for the characters.

If such a program is possible, then wouldn't it be possible for us to be making our own CG movies in a few years?

Technically, couldn't this same kind of program be used to make cheaper video games in the future? I am not a programmer, but it seems to me that such a program could be created. And if it was created it would revolutionize the entertainment industry.

Has anyone seen any articles about this kind of idea? Link?
Sam Mickel
277. Samadai
I think that anyone who would go see a movie based on a book they love and expect it to be the same is not realistic. If you are going to watch a movie you go with the intention of seeing something you haven't seen before. LOTR were great movies IMHO even though they did not stick true to the books. For example when I went to see the Two Towers I was disappointed with it all through the movie because it was the most changed. But after I watched it again I realized that it was a very good movie. This is why I could go see a live action WoT movie and enjoy it,(as long as it was well done), because I know that a movie based on a book is never going to be as good, but still can be good in its own right.
Sam Mickel
278. Samadai
Now before you all flame me it was not my intention to put anyone down or call them stupid.
279. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
LindaL @255
Tarna knew the weave for Travelling. And the POV specifically states that they went by gateway(I actually consulted my book less than an hour ago). Which means even if Elaida forbade her to spread it around, the two with her would already have seen the weave since the number of people in the Tower who know how to reverse their weaves can be counted on one hand.
And no, I never thought Duhara as Mesaana. Duhara is one of the sitters for the Red, dispatched specifically by Elaida. Elaida's POV indicated she sent someone, and other Reds' POV's indicated she was gone. Next thing we know, she shows up in Caemlyn. Besides, most would agree that Mesaana would avoid high-profile identities, and that she specifically lurks in the Tower, even with Travelling, I don't see her jumping back and forth.

thewindrose @271
I hope not. Rand is already suffering from having too many women secondguess him. Cadsuane suddenly deciding she is the better arbiter when the use of the Choedan Kal is merited would be a big blow.

Re: adaptation thingy,
I'd agree on a mini-series type. Or even a full season of 30 mins to an hour each ep. The first three are fairly fast paced and can be done in maybe a half season or so just to gauge audience reaction. BSG started pretty much the same way.
Sam Mickel
280. Samadai
I have written a thorough outline of a plot for the EotW and I have brought it in under 5 hrs and 15 mins. Even if there were a few plots that I missed,(almost positive there are none), there is more than enough time to make these into 2 three hour movies that could be an excellent mini-series. Of course this is my opinion but am sure It would please most of us.
Ofer Nave
281. odigity
Truth is, I'd give it all up for one more season of Firefly.
282. sinfulcashew
281 odigity

In my not so humble opinion (?)
Alice Arneson
283. Wetlandernw
281. odigity
282. sinfulcashew

Me three!!

I've got these great WoT books to read and more to come, but no more Firefly to watch. Yup. Me three.
John Massey
284. subwoofer
To all, my admin asst. tells me that Warner, or whoever looses the rights to Firefly in 2010 and they revert back to Joss Whedon. I believe that after that, we will see the rise of Firefly again.
Maggie M
285. Eswana
@ 281, 282, 283

Yes!!!!!! In fact, I would nominate this for Mat's theme
John Massey
286. subwoofer
Xander01@274- hmm- if it comes down to it I have a couple of scenes blazed into my mind's eye. The first would be at Falme, where we discover the meaning to The Grave is no Bar to My Call Mat's wtf might as well sound it now or we won't be here for TG.

The dash for the Green Man in the Blight and Lan going to fight all the nasties.

When we first get a glimpse of Aridhol- Shadar Logoth. Such a strong story arc that puts an inprint on 2 out of RPM.

The fall of the Stone. Epic.

And the first time Rand flows through the forms when he takes the Horn back from Fain. Paper covers rock- rock breaks scissors- scissors cuts paper.
John Massey
287. subwoofer
Adam was not meant to sing... ever... or wear that hat.
John Massey
289. subwoofer
RobM@207 Have many thoughts but was thinking of #3 on your list. Would be sweet to have a real Battle between the damane and AS. I was thinking about this when one of the As, I think it was Alanna, was talking about the Green being the Battle Ajah and was the counter to the Dread Lords. That is cool beans to me. If battles like in the AoL came about again. RJ seems to loose detail and talk about "air crackling with energy" or "lightening being hurled" like at Dumani Wells(sp). I would love it if there was some serious large scale power battles.
John Massey
290. subwoofer
Mat becoming Prince of the Ravens is one of my upcoming favorites. I could wait to discuss, but that may take a few years so this is my way of dealing.

Many interesting things came about that would be relevant to these chapters. The first is Thom. Gen. Furyk Karede is convinced that Thom is the one marshalling the Band around wreaking havoc on the Seanchan army. When Karede strolls into the camp and sees Thom he puts it to him to let Karede have Tuon. Thom points to Mat- Tuon's "Toy"- whom Karede wrote off earlier even though Mat was cussing out damane etc. That whole scene was priceless. And it shows that people do preceive Thom to be more than just a gleeman.
291. ValanVinyl
@ 183 CalaLilly and 198 sub:

Why the HELL are you picking COUNTRY songs for MAT CAUTHON?! If this madness ensues the proverbial mental breakdown of all breakdowns will consume my conscience and turn my SOUL to the Shadow!

Ok a little much? But seriously Mat = Crazy Awesome and Country music = SUCK. IMHO
John Massey
292. subwoofer
The whole Tremalking thing baffled me. First off was this mysterious race of people no one talked about popping up. These Amayar are interesting in that they remind me of Tuatha'an. Two different cultures have many Way of the Leaf similarities. Maybe in Seanchan there will be some Tinkers too that went with the Ever Victorious Army.

I am just saying that finding the song and the Jenn Aiel may still exist, just in another land. That remnant of a remnant.

The other thing was the Hand melting. Can someone still channel through the female Choedan Kal? There is still a fair chunk of it left. Should hold some power, although it is not perfect.

Has it been determined yet if there was another sa'angreal floating around that may be a step down from them?
293. sinfulcashew
(Cowering in corner with link to Alan Tudyk reading Washs eulogy at a con?)


For those Browncoats interested, here is the link (or perhaps a cut and paste?)to the youtube video:

Lots of Firefly vids here and probably you all have been there before?
John Massey
294. subwoofer
I'm a country boy, no appologies.
Yes, not everyone listens to country(warning here) but it works for me.

I find it interesting when people say that they listen to everything but country. When pressed, it comes out that they actually just listen to Top 40. May throw in a few odd ball bands to make them seem alt or whatever but the underlying truth is that they listen to the same old.

I do listen to everything. Including country.I am not going to miss out on a good song just because of the stigma attached to "country". Too much of life is missed out on because of prejudice. IMHO a good song is a good song- regardless of the genre- country, R&B, Reggae, Rock, whatever. Mat just seems the type to appreciate a good beer drinkin' song. Speaking of stereotypes.
295. Planeswalker
Top 20? Top 100? Can't list them all... I have my Top 5 here:

5. Loial gets married - Hey, even I don't find it funny whenever Mr.Bean wants what's best for Teddy. Am I the only one? Loial deserves whatever he deserves!

4. Lan and Nynaeve separation after Moraine's 'apparent death' - always hard to accept one's destiny

3. Mat and Tuon's marriage - I mean is that how you get married? Trying to outwit your partner? psychological warfare? No priests even? I lab et!

2. Cleansing of the Saidin - Forsaken vs Aes Sedai/Ashaman... gotta love fight scenes! This verifies the power of the AS from AoL are beyond the current AS/Ashaman.

1. Sounding of the Horn - greatest Mat moment ever and the arrival of the Heroes of the Horn - PURE AWESOMENESS!!!
John Massey
296. subwoofer
Maybe something obg for Mat. If only we could all just get along.
John Massey
298. subwoofer
@295 loved your #3. That was a definite Mat -wtf was that about- moment. Gets slapped when he says his vows and has to take some time for it to sink in that Tuon said the words that make him her husband. Finally.
299. 42Bonzo88
Going back to Julian and his attitude toward Bayle Domon, I think Freelancer had the right idea with Julian needing in his job to work through criminals to find the criminal he is looking for.
But to make Julian WORK with a criminal instead of turning him in would be hard. Getting info. in my opinion is not working with its using them. Also, with Domon being an Illiander doesn't help a bit.
Alice Arneson
301. Wetlandernw
Just to be ornery, I have to point out that all our music has its origins either in folk music or classical music, and the vast majority of popular music can be readily traced back through rock to country to folk. So don't get too cocky about music styles. Personally, I rarely listen to any of the popular music because the vocal production is so pathetic. Too much classical training, I guess. Or as one guy so elegantly phrased it, "I've upped my standards. Up yours."
302. Freelancer

Juilin's dislike of Bayle Domon is clearly based on two premises:
1) Illianer v Tairen prejudice. Something Juilin can and does get over with the right environment.
2) Juilin's dislike of lawbreakers. Using them for information and such is different than being told one of them is tight with the other folks on your side. It's easy to hide dislike of someone you know you don't have to spend time with. Not so easy when knucklehead is a friend of your friend.

And neither that country rag or Def Leppard work for Mat. I don't hate country, and I don't hate Def Leppard. But those two pieces don't work. Something with a fantasy air, something more closely related to a game you might win or lose, like this, I think. (Pick it up at 0:37, and fade out at 4:44) Probably not up to Wetlandernw's classical standards, but oh well. ;-)


Ah, the St. Crispin's Day monologue. Whence cometh the term "Band of brothers". One of the world's great pep talks, and still referenced by military leaders the world over.
Alice Arneson
303. Wetlandernw
Hey, what can I say. It was too good to pass up.

Really, I know I have different tastes than most folks, and I honestly can't think of anything in my repertoire that fits any of these folks. I just had to stir the pot, and poke fun at people wigging out over someone else's taste.

Here's a gig for the next JordanCon: a contest for character theme music, to be voted on by the attendees. Bet there'd be a pretty eclectic bunch of choices! I find it hilariously funny, in reading the comments, to begin to pick up on the range of folks who are hooked on WoT. I keep wondering if there are any real "common denominators" to us, other than WoT itself. Thoughts?
Amar Ramraj
304. aiel1219
@303 Wetlandrew
I think WoT is common denominator enough for me :) LOL!!! And so far I see a few people here who I cud relax n have a few beers/martinis/any alcoholic beverage u can think of with LOL!!!!

WOW!!! I've been really behind on my posting recdntly...but luckily I put my gf on a plane last nite n got over the whole, I'm alone again phase and am no ready for anythin!!! Bring it on!!!(ok too much)

Ok back to WoT, someone was questioning what Elayne would do next other than give birth to the twins. At 1st I thought it would be the Sun Throne, but I don't think that now. I recently listened to a 4th age podcast with Brandon Sanderson and he actually said that Elayne seems to be the only one who is where she needs to be for TG and the other characters gotta catch up!!! Oooohhh that shot my Sun Throne theory down in my mind...

and what abt this brother and sister who are supposed to lead ppl into the new age? (black mask red mask) Think they'll be the twins??
and what do u guys thin k could be odd about Aviendha's Quadruplets??
WOW!!! If Min also has twins, will that make Rand octadad??
305. tonka
Elayne has the Sun Throne in all but name. All that is left for her is to be crowned.

In Winter Heart , Chapter 9 Elayne tells Halwin Norry to write letters to all the major Houses ( in Cairhien ) stating her claim to the Sun Throne as daughter of Taringail Damodred.

And after what happen to Colavaere there would not be House that would dare to confront that claim and the rebels are on Rand's side and they know who he means to have on the Sun Throne.Elayne is done I guess, all she has to do is to take care of the babies and get her two countries ready for the Last Battle
309. sinful and disgruntled cashew
Needless to point out a cheesy way to fill up the posting commentary!

What the heck is that all about!

Down with Artych?

He/she seems to be posting at other sites too!
Ofer Nave
310. odigity
It's called blog spam. Everyone should click on the "FLAG" link on each of the three spam posts to let TOR know it's spam.
311. sinful and disgruntled cashew
I can't find how to 'flag'.
312. Freelancer
Rand, Mat, and Thom escaping downriver on the Spray

For Min

Something soft and smooth for Thom's repeated reading of Moiraine's letter

For Nynaeve leaving Lan at World's End

Perrin before he really figures out Faile

As Rand is walking through Aiel History

An obvious theme song for Lanfear

Background for each of Perrin's self-inflicted pity parties over missing Faile

Some blues for Mat when he discovers that Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons

Lan's take on Nynaeve

More to come, but remember, I didn't start it.

And egads, where did that trash come from? Everyone flag the spam @306/307/308 please! Right under the comment number and name tag, there's a link to FLAG or BOOKMARK a comment.
sandi vogel
313. sinfulcashew
I couldn't see the darn 'flag' right in front of my nose!
Thanks for the info.
I had to log in and create my self first?
Maybe that's why the 'flag' wasn't there. I haven't been a member before?
314. Freelancer
Umm, yeah. If you aren't logged in, you can't flag or bookmark. I didn't think to add that tidbit. Mea Culpa.
sandi vogel
315. sinfulcashew
Gee's always the details!
But I do appreciate the help!
craig thrift
316. gagecreedlives
Xandar01 @274

In no particular order

1. Moraine telling the story of Manetheran to the Edmond Fielders.
2. Loial singing to the Greenman’s oak
3. Ingtar’s last stand
4. Mat vs Galad/Gawyn
5. Mat cutting open the firework while Thom just about craps himself

Wow that was hard to narrow it down to 5. Honourable mention goes to Hopper flying.
Chiara Elvira
317. elvyelvy
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers", always sent shivers down my back those lines. Willie = awesome!!!!

After all sorts of music why not try this? ....

paracelsus@276 I'd love to have such a program. At this moment you have to invest a huge lot of money and loads of time to learn programs with a steep and demanding learning curve, and have several people working full time to assemble it all together. That would be some revolution.

Reeeeeally? Firefly soaring once more? you guys gave me the best moment of this dratted day
*giggling leaps around and her cat stalks away with an astonished puzzled look*
Amar Ramraj
318. aiel1219
Wow I dunno how u selected 5! I'm always changing my mind as I read about fav scenes and if am not reading it depends on my mood, what we're talkin about n so many differeny things... guess that's just the Master connecting with people in sooo many different ways.

And somebody Balefire that Artych guy pls... any TOR hall monitors around?
Amar Ramraj
319. aiel1219
Interesting music elvy... What is that??? Sounds like summn from the beginning or end of an anime movie or summn. But I did like some of the artwork... espeially since am trying to design my next tattoo. Gave me a few ideas to play with.
320. Freelancer
Very nice, elvy, though a bit Rush-like for me.

I lean more to the pastoral than the driven

Then again, sometimes you just have to ROLL. Maybe for the run into the Blight to reach Someshta.
Michael Catapano
321. hoping
I took the plunge and joined - formerly hoping to be of the blood, now just hoping, in a more existential sense.
I am enjoying the theme music for the movie or miniseries to be. This might work as fade out music after TG because despite our heroes various awesomenss, they are still a bit clueless.
I'm sorry I couldn't figure out how to create a link that transfers to this page. A bit clueless myself
322. JamesEdJones
304 Aiel1219

I've always just assumed that Min thought Avienda's 4 children were odd because they wouldn't be her genetic children. Seems like this might be a case of a Wise One adopting some Maidens' offspring.
323. RobMRobM
322 and 304 - Avi's children will be odd because Rand will have a different body when he fathers them. Needs to die before he can live again, per the prophecy. We've seen several ways to be reborn - Foresaken body shifting; those tied to horn being ripped out; might even see some form of merger between Rand and Moridin after streams crossed. In any event, Rand's wounded body will be gone and somehow he will have his persnality in someone else's bod. Rob
John Massey
324. subwoofer
5. Mat cutting open the firework while Thom just about craps himself

Forgot about that(dunno how) but well put. Good times! LOL

I lean more to the pastoral than the driven-

would not of guessed. Interesting choices though. Much thought put into your selection:) Very spa like. Think Ted Nugent might own the copyright on some of those songs.

elvyelvy- what can I say- always surprise me. Cool beans

@Hoping- welcome, glad you are official. Loved your choice. Very appropriate. To post in bbc, click on the bbc blue on top or follow this link.

William Liu aka Artych, if I every find you, I'm not going to bother with an arrow, it will be more gratifying to use my bare hands to teach you a lesson for sullying this good site.

Could of at least spread out your post more to take us to 1000.
Kurt Lorey
325. Shimrod
That's an interesting theory, RobMRobM. But, why would they be "odd" then?

My pet theory is that Aviendha is already pregnant and they have somehow participated in the "sister" ceremony with Elayne. But, there are holes in my theory, too.
John Massey
326. subwoofer
I am a strong believer in vigilante justice.
Michael Catapano
327. hoping
thanks for the point to the tutorial
I will give it a try
John Massey
328. subwoofer
@325- is Rand on some kind of super potency viagra? He has fun with a girl for one night and she is knocked up with multiple babies. Must be gunning for a reality show on TLC.
329. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Yeah, really. What's with the multiple births?
Captain Hammer
330. Randalator
Subwoofer @328

Well, the family of my best friend's girlfriend is throwing out twins and triplets like crazy. To the point where he's getting really nervous about what is waiting for him a couple of years down the road.

So it's known to happen. Maybe Rand is just one of these multibreeders...

Shimrod @325

My pet theory is that Aviendha is already pregnant and they have somehow participated in the "sister" ceremony with Elayne. But, there are holes in my theory, too.

Like for example that Rand and Aviendha only slept together once and she should be 5 months pregnant by WH, Prologue and 7 months pregnant by KoD based on Steven Cooper's chronology? That would be somewhat hard to miss...
Lannis .
331. Lannis
Wetlander @ 303: re: common denominators... I like to think that there isn't any (other than WoT)... s'nice to think that the series attracts a vast variety of folk. I mean, I'm sure there're base similarities, very trite in response (ie: we all breathe, are affected by gravity, etc..) But in personalities/education/culture/geography... nope. That's the fun! :)

Oh, subwoofer, I ? Branagh's Shakespeare in all it's Over The Top goodness!

I ? Shakespeare, period.

And sub, I think you're at least 50% of this thread... maybe someone is interested in doing a tally?--NOT IT! ::ducks::
Kurt Lorey
332. Shimrod
Hey. I said there were holes in it. It was just a pet theory anyway.

I suppose you aren't one of the "biologists" around here, but once is all it takes, and five months might not be all that noticable, she wears baggy clothes as a WO in training. Some women don't really show too much until late in their 7th month.

Still, I agree that there are holes that I can't fill in. Too much Dune, that's all.
craig thrift
333. gagecreedlives
Well theres a some holes that cant be filled in but theres some holes Rand is gonna have to start filling in if he is gonna father some more kids before Taimon Gaidon.
John Massey
334. subwoofer
Shimrod- back to the whole thing about not knowing you're preggers until the kid shoots out.

Lannis- Just doing my thing so no one can say I didn't try to put us to the magic number.- rest of you- feel free to criticize me for the next 660-odd posts;)
Love Branagh as an actor. Close between him and Harrison Ford as favorites. And am always a fan of the old Bard.

Maybe we'll go plaid.
John Massey
335. subwoofer
Is this Rand's way of creating his Hundred Companions?
Galen Brinn
336. GatheringStorm
LOL. That's B-A-D, subwoofer!

No more Elayne, please? FAIL (TM) is bearable right now but Elayne is just...
John Massey
337. subwoofer
Thought for general fodder- does Rand acquire his Hundred Companions before TG? Is that what Loigain is about? Or does he face the DO alone and use the access key for the Choedan Kal?
Captain Hammer
338. Randalator
Shimrod @332

I suppose you aren't one of the "biologists" around here, but once is all it takes,

I wasn't doubting that once can be enough, just pointing out what month she should be in and why.

and five months might not be all that noticable, she wears baggy clothes as a WO in training. Some women don't really show too much until late in their 7th month.

Yeah but a) these women usually don't carry quadruplets around, b) even if showing little signs they don't retain that certain tight-Maiden-hotness, c) after Ebou Dar Aviendha is wearing wetlander silks (with bodices) quite often and d) in KoD, ch. 15 she is remarkably naked in front of Elayne and her maids with an equally remarkable lack of pregnancy related comments.

So, 7th month quadruplets after Rand's one-shot-deal (pun intended) in TFoH? Not likely...

Rejoice at the twins, brothers and sisters and keep the quadrupletting for after Tarmon Gai'don when it's time to repopulate Randland.
jane reynolds
339. janie
Happy birthday Leigh! For ... whenever it was.

Since you asked, Lannis ... subwoofer, at 56 comments makes up 16.7% of the total of 336. JamesEdJones and wetlandernw get honourable mentions at 17 and 15 apiece. And I'm not criticising, sub, just stating a fact.

I'm going to keep out of the whole WOT movie debate, cos I don't have anything intelligent to say on the subject (internal monologue is going Yes! No! Yes! No! etc - not exactly a coherent position). Plus it's very late at night, and my brain is slowly turning to mush.
John Massey
340. subwoofer
maybe breaking up big text posts to several to make it easy to read and to help go plaid?
Galen Brinn
342. GatheringStorm
"They've gone to plaid!" lol. Hillarious movie!

I think subwoofer is trying to make up for lack of verbosity from R.Fifeand me. Long weekend and all (at least for me) has kept me out of the loop.

Keep at it subwoofer and you'll singlehandedly take us to 800 posts! lol ;)
Maggie M
343. Eswana
Re: Avienda's kids:

A few months ago on the 4th Age podcast (@ Dragonmount) one of the hosts suggested that the something odd could refer to their conception in TAR. The idea was that somehow Avienda would encounter Rand in TAR after he's died in TG. Since Rand is a Hero of the Horn, he hangs out in TAR between Ages. Avienda isn't a dreamwalker, but if she either entered TAR in the flesh or used the Ring or another ter'angreal, she could. Since what happens in TAR is real, if she and Rand had an "enthusiastic reunion" she could get knocked up in TAR.

I'm not sure how I feel about this theory, but it's interesting to say the least. :-)
Richard Fife
344. R.Fife
yeah, I'm just skimming and reading a free book I snagged from somewhere. I will take no part in breaking Pablo just upgraded his command center, and I know he's gunning for me. Have fun when a cylon's knocking on your door.

As to Avi's babies, I think that yeah, that will definately be post TG. With Rand's current body, he probably couldn't even take baby-making with Avi.
John Massey
345. subwoofer
maybe I could get my authentic replica helmet autographed.
346. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Heroes of the Horn generally stay out of sight of mere mortals when in TAR. The so-called "precepts" that Brigitte spoke of (and then subsequently broke) govern them.
347. RebelLives
I know they are human characters, but it is a different world, so maybe pregnancies last more than 9 months. Maybe they last 12 months and she is not showing yet.
Kurt Lorey
348. Shimrod
@343 Eswana.

That is an interesting take as well. Worth keeping in mind.

I just don't want to buy into the idea that Rand will lose his current body. I remember something in an early vision (Egwene, Min?) about the sun going backwards briefly after Tarmon Gai'don.

Maybe, Rand will die, LTT's spirit will fly off, time will briefly rewind, and Rand is back (beat up), and alone in his head? I am still convinced that Semirhage possesses the skills to Heal him completely.

The whole thing with Forsaken getting "new" bodies is way towards the Dark One's side for me. Those bodies aren't grown in tanks, ya know. Rand getting one somehow is a evil act to me.

Back to Aviendha and Rand, as an adjunct thory to Dragonmount's . Maybe instead of in TAR, they make the quads around the Re-Sealing of the Bore during TG? Women have to be there to participate, else it (the Re-Sealing, sillies) won't work. And, Aviendha is certainly qualified in strength in the One Power to be there.

And as far as being too weak to copulate, well I'm afraid I'm rather well versed in some aspects of the Holocaust, and you might be very surprised at what people might be capable of when they are staring Death in the face.
349. JamesEdJones
348 Shimrod

I believe the quote is, "twice dawns the day of his death" I don't remember anything about the sun moving backwards. If anyone knows the quote about the sun, please post.
Antoni Ivanov
350. tonka
Does some have a link or something to Steven Cooper's chronology ? Please. I've been searching for weeks.
Captain Hammer
351. Randalator
Shimrod @343

I remember something in an early vision (Egwene, Min?) about the sun going backwards briefly after Tarmon Gai'don.

That's the Karaethon Cycle:

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

And as far as being too weak to copulate, well I'm afraid I'm rather well versed in some aspects of the Holocaust, and you might be very surprised at what people might be capable of when they are staring Death in the face.

Generally life-threatening danger makes people want to procreate like mad...
Kurt Lorey
352. Shimrod
I wouldn't call a eclipse a second dawning, since the sun wouldn't be rising in the east for a second time. Can't offhand think of anything else.

Thanks for the quote, Randalator.

Yeah. I'd like a link to that Time Line stuff too. I'm missing out.
Kurt Lorey
354. Shimrod
Thanks, Randalator!

And, major Bummer.

Dom DeLuise died today.
Galen Brinn
356. GatheringStorm
Re: Rand's Death.

Yes, Rand is supposed to die (tragic hero and all that). Yes, Alivia (a former damane) is supposed to help him die (per Min's viewing). However, we are all forgetting that Rand got an answer from the 'Finns regarding how to live through TG: "To live, you must die".

I realize the answer is cryptic and could be interpreted many ways but I choose to think of it as he "will be back" after his "death" on Shayol Ghul.

Oh, as to Semirhage healing Rand; I think she can heal his hand and eyesight issues but not much else. Semirhage herself says that he's insane - hearing LTT's voice in his head (admitting that sometimes those voices are real) but that only Graendal had any success in "integrating" the personalities. From what else I recall of that conversation, Semirhage also says that Graendal wasn't frequently successful with cases like that.
Joseph Blaidd
357. SteelBlaidd
Ohh trust me Rebel SOme one would have noticed, probably Avi. It's relly hard to hide on the athleticly slim, and the bump and pukeing are not the only signs. (My wife and I are now officialy in the second Trimester of our 2nd and I am far too familiar with the secondary symptoms.

A few songs:

Mat on unit morale
Mat on strategy and tactics

Advice to Mat, Rand and Lan on the wisdom of avoiding Tuon, A.M.E. and Nynaeve.
scott Turner
358. Al-Doctore
a post after watching this blog from a distance for months, and I prob hav worthles points, RJ has possibly written himself in a corner sne with hind sight all the proph are having literal occurances cant spell, there is almost a one to one matching and some are so simple so how the 2 dawns will be an eclips I cannot yet think of an obvious other reason) etc and I felt his dying and rebirth would be shedding LTT and being his own man. And yes elaine if she is as perfect in shape as all the SG would be showing twins.
Love the blog and now amin the TFH once hind sight makes an interesting read in Wot but I miss some of those virgin moments I had the first time and did not catch 1/2 the stuff you guys did the 1st time through.
scott Turner
359. Al-Doctore
as for AVi i would have tought she would b knocked up pre TGbt time is short 3 books lol, but se would be showing for sure now. TAR seemsa little convienant to fix details for me, possible why its boring to re-read the TAR chapters to easy to do stuff etc just think it.
sorry to waist broadband space as a newbie
Kurt Lorey
360. Shimrod
Semirhage is saying that to sow dissension. Remember, she is the Queen of Cruel. Divide and Conquer. Sow suspicion amongst allies. You are simply too nice, I'm thinking. ;)

Besides, if LTT's soul flies the coop when Rand dies at the first dawn, then Rand is "reset" before the second dawn, Rand wouldn't be hearing voices anymore, would he?
361. LindaL
@279 Alreadymad...

Thanks for the clarification. That will teach me to post without my books handy. I had missed Elaida sending Duhara to Elayne.
362. JamesEdJones
359 Al-Doctore

Post away! We're trying to use up as much non-spam bandwidth as possible. Check out the first 10 posts for clarification on that. lol

Plus, I cannot agree with you more about TAR. The Shadow seems to be the only team that can affect the real world through TAR except by very rare accident. And it's primarily the ladies' territory. Perrin is not a big fan of visiting. This makes it a bit of a boring environment for me.
Galen Brinn
363. GatheringStorm
In defense of Semirhage's statements:

"During the Age of Legends Kamarile Maradim Nindar was once a respected psychiatrist. Though strong in the One Power, her true fame came from her insight into the human mind, and she was well-versed in the healing of mental afflictions that the One Power could not aid." From Wikipedia's entry for Graendal.
Blake Engholm
364. UncrownedKing
Ok group just finished KoD and I need this answered by someone more WOTintelligent than I:

In the final paragraph or two in the epilogue of KoD, 6 Red sisters go to the Black Tower to talk to Taim (the M'Hael) and ask to bond Ashaman. Taim says yes with out any hesitation. The sisters ask him why and he retorts "You must remember the old saying,'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.'"

Now throughout the books I have flipped flopped back and forth on whether the Lord of Chaos is Rand, Moridin, The Dark One, or if it is Taim himself. Have we ever been told right out who is the Lord of Chaos?

You could definately make an argument for Taim being the LoC, him being the 'Anti-Christ' of the story. But I can't make a decision.
Galen Brinn
365. GatheringStorm
I was always under the impression that The Lord of Chaos was a synonym for The Dark One.
Michael Catapano
366. hoping
Uncrowned King and GatheringStorm
I always took the Lord of Chaos to be metaphorical, rather than an actual person, but I have no book support for this.
Dan Sparks
367. RedHanded
Does anyone have a link to the play that was performed at JordanCon? I thought I saw it somewhere but I'm not sure.
Maggie M
368. Eswana
hoping @ 366
I agree. Metaphorical Lord of Chaos, not literal. Though the Dark One certainly fits the bill.
Rich Bennett
369. Neuralnet
the waiting for a new post is painful...

I always took the lord of chaos to be a reference to the dark one. Since it seems like chaos is opposite the wheel of time spinning out the pattern which is all the creators doing. When Taim says let the lord of chaos rule at the end of KoD I think it infers he is sworn to the shadow... either a forsaken in disguise or a darkfriend.
370. RobMRobM
In this context, Lord of Chaos is Rand. That was Moridin's order to the Foresaken - let him live to TG and he used the phrase (as I recall) "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Note that the red and black colors and the blacktower and insignia on the coach make clear (if there was any doubt) that Taim and his cohorts are officially darkfriends. Rob
Kurt Lorey
371. Shimrod
@363 That proves nothing, one way or another, besides that Graendal was a psychiatrist.

Propaganda is the art of telling the BIG lie sprinkled with little grains of truth.
372. JamesEdJones
364 King

I've always thought that line from LOC about, Order burns to clear his path, in a Rand prophecy, summed it up.
Maggie M
373. Eswana
Red @ 367
I wish!! I've been scouring Youtube, but no luck. Hopefully someone here has a video they can upload.
Galen Brinn
374. GatheringStorm
I'm aware what propaganda is. My point was that while Semirhage was good at healing physical maladies and injuries, Graendal's speciality was diseases of the mind. By Semirhage's (and the BBoBA's) own words, no one was better at insanity than Graendal.

As a sidebar to this topic, we also have Min's viewing (from ACoS) that Rand and someone else (LTT, but Min didn't know that) would "merge" and that "one would live and the other would die". She didn't know which one, however.
Dan Sparks
375. RedHanded
Thanks Eswana, I have been searching too. I did find a video for the Lost Boys who played at JordanCon but that's not the same.

R. Fife or Leigh, do you know of it being posted anywhere? Did it even get recorded?!
376. happi
@356.GatheringStorm: Oh, as to Semirhage healing Rand; I think she can heal his hand and eyesight issues but not much else. Semirhage herself says that he's insane - hearing LTT's voice in his head (admitting that sometimes those voices are real) but that only Graendal had any success in "integrating" the personalities. From what else I recall of that conversation, Semirhage also says that Graendal wasn't frequently successful with cases like that.

In the FOH prolog, Graendal states she doesn't know exactly what Rand is relative to LTT:

Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."
"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"
Blake Engholm
377. UncrownedKing

I'm not sure how this 'clearyly summed it up.' It doesn't really tell us anything pertaining to the LoC and if he is in fact Rand, Demodred, DO, Taim, or just a metephor.
Dan Sparks
378. RedHanded
@374 Storm
The way you describe the merging of LTT and Rand, one living, one dying, reminds me of Luc and Isam. Could it be that Rand battles LTT at Shayol Ghul and is perhaps merged together into one body...perhaps like Mat with his past memories but still mainly Mat, only it would be Rand with some LTT memories but still Rand. Interesting to think about.
Kurt Lorey
379. Shimrod
Ah, then our difference is that you believe Rand to be insane and I believe Rand to have two souls?

If he is insane, then I agree that nobody is fixing that. I just don't happen to but into that point of view, that's all.
Captain Hammer
380. Randalator
re: Lord of Chaos

I always took it that the Lord of Chaos is just a saying like "Mother Nature", "Lady Luck" or "Father Frost", a personification of an abstract concept.

So "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" just means "turn the world upside down by any means necessary". Otherwise some actions of the Forsaken wouldn't make sense. Like destroying the Seanchan Empire which will only force the Seanchan into a truce instead of binding the Dragon Reborn's forces in a battle for Randland.
Kurt Lorey
381. Shimrod
@378 Um, what? Rand battle Lews Therin Telamon? When did Lews Therin acquire a body?
Richard Fife
382. R.Fife
I know the guy over at portalstones (roga) recorded it, along with a whole bunch of other stuff, but he was going to clean the video up before posting. Go check over there, I guess. Jason from Dragonmount also posted a link to his recap post in both of recap blogs, and he said he would link it soon as he found it in that DM post.
383. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
GatheringStorm @374
And by Semirhage's own admission, it was not her field of specialization. So it was like, "I say you're nuts but I wouldn't really know since I'm not the expert". Besides what would any of the Forsaken know of taint-induced madness? They've all been locked since before Lews Therin and his cohorts started going mad. Graendal would admittedly be an expert on madness in general but would she know much of the type became prevalent while she was locked away? Expert that she is, would she categorize it automatically without careful observation of at least one case? Does one such case actually come near Graendal for her to study? Yes, I know, lots of ifs.
As an expert on physical and mental torture and manipulation, Semirhage was just isolating Rand from his allies and vice versa. And insane fool that Rand is he took it hook, line and sinker.

500 posts to go, Lews Therin is cheering us all..
Break it break it break it break it
384. JamesEdJones
377 King

Hang on, I never said it clearly summed it up. I just said I thought it summed it up. My thoughts are all over the place, and they're NEVER very clear.

Maybe I should have added an IMHO.
Dan Sparks
385. RedHanded

Really, really? Well who knows how thin reality is at Shayol Ghul, for the love of god Rand fought 3 reflections of himself and you question whether it's possible that Lews Therin might not acquire a physical form? I mean 2 forsaken at least that we know of have new bodies, yeah buddy don't question that one! :) My comment was in reference to GatheringStorm who was saying something about LTT and Rand merging, one living, one dying. If you think about it he did absorb his reflections in order to become whole again, who's to say that the same sort of thing couldn't happen with Rand and LTT? Hell LTT could just walk out of a mirror as far as Randland is concerned.
Alice Arneson
386. Wetlandernw
Re: Where is the JordanCon opening show?

I haven't seen a vid yet, but Jason provided the script here. It's quite entertaining.

Re: Who is the Lord of Chaos?

I fall into the "name for an abstract concept" camp. Since the DO instructs Demandred to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", it's at least implied that neither of them bears the title. From the context I didn't think he meant Rand; it read (to me) as if he just wanted Demandred & co. to stir up as much chaos as possible. JMHO.
Kurt Lorey
387. Shimrod
@385 Whew! Thanks. I thought I was the only one.

Nothing in that vision says it was Rand and LTT merging. Could be Moridin/Ishamael and Rand for all we know.

Your last point is certainly true enough. ;)
Dan Sparks
388. RedHanded

It's true, the "bubbles of evil" make for an ANYTHING is possible mechanism for sure. Something doesn't make sense. It's ok, it was a bubble of evil.

Oh yeah and it could be Moridin and Rand too for all we know. Hell maybe Asmodeon will merge with Thom Merrilin. Super Bard! :)
389. JamesEdJones
Re: Who is LOC?

Anyone of the opinion that it might be a prize? All the Forsaken seem to be aiming toward it like they're trying to earn it as their own title.
Ellie Virgo
390. Egglie
ok - I tried to tell some friends about how cool this forum was the other day, now they think I am a freak. I should never have mentioned the spanking debate, it was all downhill from there:-)
Dan Sparks
391. RedHanded
Your friends are just jealous Egglie. They wish they had a spanking debate. :)
Blake Engholm
392. UncrownedKing
I could see it as a prize. But after all of the Forsakies were after being named N'Bleis and Moridin got that, Its possible that the LoC could be another title of some kind.
sandi vogel
393. sinfulcashew
Music reminds me of Ronnie James Dio and Rob Halford?
(That doesn't really date me as I 'learned' to love heavy metal, etc. in the 80's from my now 40 yr old son who is still playing in a couple of bands.)
Maggie M
394. Eswana
Wetlandrew @ 386
Thanks for the script link. Fabulous.

Egglie @ 390
I sympathize. I have two friends who also read WoT, but neither of them is an online fan forum person. Trying to explain the awesomeness of this re-read community of crazies fans would be nigh impossible.

395. RobMRobM
@274 - top five scenes as of middle of TSR:
EOTW - Winternight revelations (Tam's fever dream, Lan explaining the heronmark, Moiraine's Manetheren speech)(way to start off with a bang)
EOTW - Rand's encounter with Elayne, Gawyn, Morgase and Elaida in Camelyn (awesome in every respect)
TGH - nothing makes the list, sorry.
TDR - Mat taking on Galad/Gawyn (first sign of the awesomeness to come with Mat)
TSR - Rand's Rhuidean flashbacks (best of the best).
TSR - Perrin/Faile revelations while with the Tinkers (emotionally powerful)
Helen Peters
396. Helen
Was 'let the lord of chaos rule' in another book?
I've not read KoD yet (can I beg you not to tell me what happens??) but that seems awfully familiar, but I must have been asleep while reading it not to notice Rand having his hand chopped off if not.

5 favorite moments from the first 4 books.

1 Mat v Galad/Gawyn (obviously, and esp the bit straight after where he has to walk away not letting them see he's close to collapse)

2 Perrin, beginning of TGH, he goes to visit Mat and physically moves Leanne out of the way so he can get past, that's also the first time we see Leanne flirting. Just picks her up and moves her out of his way.

3 Fleeing Emonds Field. Rand comes in, Mo says did you tell anyone, no, Perrin - I left a note, Mat also, then Eg turns up, then Thom jumps down out of the hayloft, you can just see Mo getting more and more frustrated that her sneaking away is not going to plan.

4 Nyn, after having caught Moggy, thinking what on earth am I going to do with her now!?!

5 And I'm gonna get slated for this one. Liandrin meeting with Jachim Carridin (sp?). At the begining of TGH at the darkfriend meeting JC is all, you idiots you should have come in disguise, he looks round the room and lists all the people and where they're from, but he's the one that gets found out! Sorry I do hate Li really, but thought it was rather funny.

Ooh, ooh, can I get a point for knowing why Leigh got upset about Perrin smacking Faile, but not Thom slapping Elayne.... Coz Perrin warned Faile if she poked him again he would spank her and then did, but Thom slapped Elayne BEFORE he told her he was going to.... Or could be that Elayne is more annoying so more deserving of getting wallopped.
397. JGrizzell
I agree with Shimrod@379, in that Rand and LTT are two souls in one body. What if Rand were to get with AVI and the something wierd vision that Min was was that Rand was father of two of the children and LTT was the father of the other two?

So what do you think???
Kurt Lorey
398. Shimrod
Last time I checked, babies didn't come from the soul. Maybe one of the biologists here would differ?

Still, that would be odd. ;)
Galen Brinn
399. GatheringStorm

That's kind of been my thought on it, RedHanded. At least, soul-wise - not a corporeal battle. But, that's just my interpretation of Min's viewing.
Helen Peters
400. Helen
No, babies don't come from the soul.

And if you think that the multiple babies are Rand's fault, these come from the female side (unless you have identicals, you're going to need more than one egg)

Only 600 to go....
Dan Sparks
401. RedHanded
@ 382

Thanks, I'm reading the script right now...nice.
402. happi
I just don't see how Rand and LTT can be two souls in one body. If that were the case, what does "The Dragon Reborn" even mean? If that name is to have any meaning, it must be that the "soul" of Lews Therin would be reborn.
Dan Sparks
403. RedHanded
I would think that LTT's soul WOULD be reborn as Rand also and shouldn't be seperate, but maybe the taint on saidin causes that soul to fracture...?

It could just be that LTT is just a part of his going mad and doesn't really exist except in Rand's mind. Probably a lot of evidence doesn't support this (LTT always trying to seize saidin or take control of it). I'm thinking that it's possible that their souls are linked (much like the souls are linked to the Horn) and through saidin (at first) they are able to be aware of each other. I dunno, just a theory with holes in it. It's a bubble of evil.
Tess Laird
404. thewindrose
Wetlandernw #386- Thanks for the link, wish I had been there - very funny:). Maybe next year
405. Burning
In my opinion the Lord of Chaos = The Dark One.
406. Jormengrund
WHEW! I have finally been able to catch up!!

You know, after reading (and re-reading) a few times now, it's really quite interesting to get another separate perspective on the whole series..

I, for one, find the banter of the sexes quite humorous. Each guy thinking the other is more skilled, and more witty, etc. The girls all thinking about how loutish the men are, and then turn to mush when they talk...

Yeah, the sexism is a "bit" overdone, but to me it kind of reminds me of some keystone kop episode...

Watching these characters develop is really what interests me the most, though. Each is slightly different in their learning curve, and each one takes a different lesson from the hard times ahead.. Makes me wonder how it's all going to tie together in this final (3) volume?

I don't envy the job, I just envy the time to re-hash old stories!

Great job Leigh, and Happy Birthday!!
407. Jgrizzell
Avi can definately have more that one egg available and if LTT can fight to take Saidinaway from Rand, he may be able to take control elsewhere..... Ducks and covers.... Just trying to get to 1000.
Galen Brinn
408. GatheringStorm
You guys are going to call down The Watcher Over the Threads aka, Pablodefendini...

Antoni Ivanov
409. tonka
@ 402 Lews Therin was the Dragon... so if his soul is reborn he is the Dragon Reborn.

Lord of Chaos.I always thought of it partially as a 'title' the baddies gave for Rand and in the same time in a metaphorical meaning.
Dan Sparks
410. RedHanded
I think The Lord of Chaos is a metaphor for creating dissent among Randland. If you think of how a lot of the DF's have contradictory orders and how in general they are trying to sew chaos. Rand is the bringer of order (yes lots of upheaval BUT look at how he is gathering different lands to him in order to fight the last battle...creating allies where there were once enemies) The Dark One doesn't want anyone to bring order to the world, the more chaos involved the easier it will be for him to get what he needs to break free instead of having the world against him. If you were to apply the Lord of Chaos to anyone I would say it would be the DO. The spoiler of virgins, the unmaker of webs!
John Fitzingo
411. Xandar01
Hmm I guess to be fair, I should finish my list of top 5 up to TSR

I already mentioned Four Kings in EoTW

EoTW - Perrin and Egwene's rescue from the Whitecloaks. Lan's awesomeness, the wolves, and Nynaeve actually proving useful.

TGH - Daes Dae'mar. It's so funny that in doing nothing Rand becomes this great player of the Game of Houses.

TDR - Into the Stone. Mat and his fireworks bomb he he he.

TSR - Rhuidean, The Aiel, Tinkers, Age of Legends Oh yeah!!
412. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Redhanded @403
I actually agree. LTT always trying to seize Saidin may simply be how Rand believes it. For all we know Rand is simply channelling uncontrollably and is blaming his connection to LTT. An alternative way to look at it is that if LTT was at the prime of his life (about 400 yrs) he'd been channelling for 2 centuries to every year Rand has been. It's a lot more familiar to him and what Rand feels is some kind of deja vu based on what little of LTT's memories he is willing to access actively. LTT's memories themselves is another sore point for Rand. He stays away from them because he believes them to be a vehicle for LTT to takeover.
In any case, despite the supposedly mad ranting, LTT's advice is actually quite sound when he gives it.

RedHanded @410
Good explanation on the Lord of Chaos.
David Dudley
413. Warspoon
As far as breaking the blog goes, I think large numbers of users chain refreshing the page will yield better results. It should generate a Denial of Service effect.
414. CalaLily
I had a thought. A rather...disturbing thought. A thought SO disturbing I cannot help but share it with, well, everyone. It's one of those things that if I have to suffer, so do you. :)

Myrddraal are throwbacks to the human stock used by Aginor to create trollocs.

I have reached two conclusions.

1) There are FEMALE trollocs.

2) Trollocs BREED.

Now, I have questions: HOW are Fades born? Do they rip, full formed, from their mother's womb, destroying that sad excuse of cannon fodder to bloody bits in the process? . Are they born as eyeless, creepy little babies and raised under Shayol Ghul or near Thrakan'dar? What do they eat? What is the function of a female trolloc in trolloc society? Is she simply a breeder? Where do they live?

That I am CONTEMPLATING this is disturbing. That I -want to know- is even moreso. D: RJ, what have you done to me?!
415. ValanVinyl
my song for mat. Appropriate i think:

The General
Dru O'Higgins
416. bellman
If we repeatedly break the blog, we may see a denial of service effect of our very own. If it happens, it happens, but let's not seek it out.
Captain Hammer
417. Randalator
Shimrod @379, JGrizzell @397

RJ specifically said that Rand's soul is LTT's soul reborn.

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I together.

If LTT is real or just a sign of Rand's madness is still open to debate.

I for one am firmly in the the-taint-weakens-barriers-between-incarnations-camp, which basically means that LTT is both real and a symptom of taint-induced madness.
418. CalaLily
D: I was going for the lyrics, not the -music-. And hey! I happen to -LIKE- country music! *sniff*

Can anyone disagree that this song does NOT describe our Beloved Hatted One? The lyrics fit him almost perfectly, imo. You don't have to like the music to agree with that.
419. ValanVinyl
I haven't read past 304 yet so hopefully i won't be too redundant here.

But @ Wetlander 303 and Aiel1219 304:

I've discovered that yes, people that read the WoT come from all different backgrounds and any of us can get along discussing the WoT. A few drinks are always welcome as well. Never a bad time.

My personal favorite chapter in the series that I would most want to see on film has always been Dumai's Wells. Awesomeness incarnate.
420. CalaLily
In response to those speculating about the LTT/Rand insanity/soul/saidin thing, I always thought that since time in Randland is cyclical, Rand is literally talking to LTT in his head, who is alive in his own time and talking to Rand in his head. I don't know if the "Wheel" just means the Ages constantly roll around again or if they all exist at the same time and but then they really -don't-. It's just struck me that maybe they're two telephone receivers sharing a LAN line or something. xD

And as to the favorite chapter/scene....It has to be Mat's Rhuidean adventure. The total surreality of the 'Finn's world, and how out-of-place he was, plus just the Mat Factor in general, made for an entertaining and interesting chapter that sticks out in my mind.
421. Freelancer
In TEotW there are segments that seem like each succeeding scene raises the bar of amazing.

Most have been discussed: Moiraine's Manetheren monologue; Moiraine's various channelings in the flight from Emond's Field all the way to Shadar Logoth; Rand laughing at Whitecloaks in Baerlon; Mordeth squeezing through a crack in the wall after Rand sees he has no shadow; Perrin/Egwene meeting Elyas & the Tinkers; Thom ATTACKING a halfman to give Rand and Mat time to run; Rand before Morgase/Elaida in Caemlyn; Meeting Loial.

All of these are very cool, but the best for me are all after the trip through the Ways.

5. Discovery of the Seal, Horn and Banner at the Eye, including Moiraine's declaration that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. DUN

4. Lan confessing his love for Nynaeve while refusing to permit anything to come of it. (Rand closed his eyes, because he didn't think the Wisdom would like it if he watched her cry)

3. The "fellowship" fighting their way into the Blight to reach the Green Man's place

2. Lord Agelmar's sad yet proud description of the betrayal of Malkier by Breyan and Cowin, and Lan's legacy. "He denies his titles, but in the Borderlands he is called The Uncrowned, and if he ever raised the Golden Crane in battle, hundreds here would follow..."

1. Without a doubt, the scene that cannot be denied. Our first glimpse of the bedrock strength within Loial, refusing to permit the Blight to have Someshta's grave. The imagery of the Ogier singing for what turns out to be hours to the Great Oak, it killed me the first time, and it kills me every time.
423. Freelancer

An interesting hypothesis, and I was about to agree it was plausible, until I considered what we can know. LTT sees what Rand is experiencing such as being in the box, showing Rand how to unravel or break a tied-off weave, etc. We have no corrolary imagery of Rand seeing into LTT's life and environment.

Nothing says that your idea of a connection across the ages is wrong, though, but perhaps it is simply one-way regarding time. LTT can see forward, Rand cannot see back.

My opinion is that LTT is real, not a manifestation of taint-induced insanity. The apparent conundrum of Rand both being the Dragon Reborn, while having the original Dragon inside his head, has at least one reasonable explanation. How many "facts" in Randland turn out to be misinterpretations of reality? It could be that the adoption of a dead man's spirit within him is all that makes Rand the DR. It is clear that they do not share the same "mind" per se, even if they truly are separate incarnations of the same soul.

Also, lots of discussion here about Min's viewing that Rand and another will merge, with one living, and one dying. I don't think this is LTT, but rather Ishy. A connection was formed when Rand's balefire stream of saidin crossed Moridin's of the True Power. Rand can often see the face in his mind, can tell that they are aware of each other.

Our poor hero, he hasn't known the meaning of alone in quite some time. The cast in his head includes, in order of appearance there, LTT, Alanna, Ishydin, Elayne/Aviendha/Min. And, it's like they all bonded him, he hasn't taken the lead in a bonding yet, for all he's the world's Redeemer.

That reminds me, I have a major league question about male channelers bonding women, but that will wait until the proper time...
jane reynolds
424. janie
It's an interesting theory, but I think not the right explanation, and here's why:

In Rand's head, LTT rants about Ilyena. He moans about her being dead (sorry I can't look up a quote right now, but I'm pretty certain about this), and from the very beginning of the series, we've known the sequence of events:

1 - LTT and the Hundred Companions seal the bore, the DO strikes back and taints saidin
2 - LTT goes mad and kills Ilyena and everyone else close to him
3 - Ishamael shows up and heals him, and reminds him what he did
4 - LTT travels to present site of Dragonmount, draws too much of the Power and kills himself

There's not a large amount of lucid time in there for him to be holding cross-time conversations with Rand. Sure, a lot of the time LTT in Rand's head seems pretty crazy, but I think he's fairly consistently crazy post killing everyone he loved.
F Shelley
425. FSS
@397 - I dunno, I think the 4 babies at once thing means her 2 will adopt sister-wives or first brothers or sisters...
Richard Fife
426. R.Fife
I would like to point out what amazing self control I am having in a thread filled with youtube links. Really, I must be inhuman.
427. CalaLily
I love how no one is even touching my Trolloc comment. :)

D: You forgot the other two-thirds of Our Heroes when you tallied up all the squatters in Rand's brain. Poor guy. Partially blind, one-handed, constantly sick and/or injured, surrounded by people who want to kill him, and he can't even be alone in his thoughts because of the mad previous savior of the world, the Almost Big-Bad, the two wack-job loves of his life and Min, Alanna, and who knows who else'll pop in there. :\ Someone needs a hug.
Michael Catapano
428. hoping
RFife aka
Rickroller of the WOT Obsessed
I fear your links.
Must. Not. Click. Aaarrhgg!

I also make two conclusions
1 You appear to be very disturbed
2 So am I

I will postulate that myrdraal are not so much born as... well...think a pinata. The trolloc with the winning pound gets to perform the ceremonial tossing of the wee myrdraal into the blight where they are raised by worms.
Sam Mickel
429. Samadai
Suppose that Ishmael is correct about how him and the Dragon have fought time and again as the wheel turns. Then add in that the Dark One never loses and never wins unless the Dragon serves him and the dark wins. So for example Dragon follows the Dark one and the dark wins time ends. any other scenario the dark one loses and time rolls onto the next matchup. So in all these situations the Dragon either is killed or dies in a stalemate, except Lews Therin who seals the prison but is insane. His soul does not actually die so he cannot be reborn, he is for lack of a better existing in soul form for three thousand years slowly driving himself crazy again(he was sane when he killed himself). Now Rand is born and LT takes up residence as the soul.Now Rand grows up developing his own personality while the LT part is dormant because there is no one power yet. Rand starts channeling more and more and LT gets stronger and stronger, until they are both vying for control of their body, 1 soul 2 personalities body up for grabs. So clearly per my thinking LT is as real as Rand and will die to save them both.
Richard Fife
430. R.Fife
Samadai: I am fairly sure (and it has been linked in the comments in some past thread) that RJ said that the Dragon has actually indeed served the Dark before, but those are instances of "a draw", not a Dark Win. He further insinuated that if the Dark ever wins, it wins for good (time stops, as you put it). But that the "draws" are how the Champion of the Light can serve the Dark and still not F everything up. Thus my opinion that in order for the Dark to truly win, they need the Dragon to stay on the Light-side and meet the Dark One/'s Champion at Tarmon Gaidon and lose. Then the DO can break free, otherwise he just gets to stick his pinky toe in the water and dream.

Hoping, what are you talking about? That link very specifically says that it is not a RickRoll! ;)
Chiara Elvira
431. elvyelvy
Aiel, Freelancer et al. that’s from Rhapsody’s second album –I must have it here somewhere *rummages through an endless quantity of CDs and assorted stuff* with the others- and it’s power metal with symphonic and baroque influences. Oh well, I happen to listen to many types of music, my playlist is huge, and I mean very huge.

The hundred Companions – god catch, I can’t find the specific post, but I bet Logain has much to do with it (Min’s viewing of future glory and all the rest), so I’m inclined to a big YES.

As to Rand’s childrens, I can imagine supermoms using the OP to change diapers (or whatever they use in Randland) warm the milk up just to the right temperature… but gee, six of them and not years apart. And what about Min? She is the one travelling around with Rand, and actively having *ahem* moments of privacy with him. She a lot of time with Rand and nothing, while Elayne once in 11 books so far and voilà, two kids. Hmm.

Who brought up trollocs and she-trollocs? Devious line of thought– but oh my gee, either they employ parthenogenesis or they *blushes* do THAT!!!. Whew, better not to investigate too closely and wait for tomorrow and the new post.
432. CalaLily
83 She-locs!
Michael Catapano
433. hoping
I remember that thread, probably from tGH. I asked then if RJ ever stated that LTT was always the champion of the light, or are there other champions but only one dragon. It blows me away to think that the LTT soul served the Great Lord.

To All
RFife is right. There is no Rick Roll so don't be afraid, my pretties ;)
Richard Fife
434. R.Fife
BBoBA says: only male trollocs go and fight, females are kept in breeding communities and seriously are just baby-making machines. Apparently, they enjoy being preggers.

Occasional "throwbacks" to the stock of trollocs happens. The more "animal" are usually stillborn or die soon after birth. Halfmen, all male and apparently sterile, are the uniform throwback to the human side.

Also noted: trollocs can breed with humans, although, even if the mother survives the birthing, the baby has the same mortality rate as the "more animal" trolloc babies.
End BBoBA comments

My comment: I coulda sworn I read somewhere else that birthing halfmen typically killed the trolloc mommy too, but I might have just been remembering the comment about human mommies up there. There was no comment about the raising of Myrddral babies, but my guess is other Myrddral do it. Could you imagine having to take care of a teething halfman?
John Massey
435. subwoofer
Awwww, you guys took it past 400. Thanks, that's the best B-day present... you're all just the greatest. Don't worry- to all the worry warts out there- unless I post every second word, we are not making 1000. 500 is tangible though.

SteelBlaidd@357 *sniff, sniff its so beautiful sniff. Always loved Desperado for Kareokee.

Randalator@380 I wouldda said, but you beat me to it.

Alreadymildlyannoyed@383 men were not going Sadin mad, but there was probably mentally insane people before anybody was sealed in the Bore. Graendal was a psychologist I thought- ah, here it is-
She was a famous psychologist for nearly four hundred years, and was known to heal mental afflictions even use of the One Power could not cure.

Now it can be argued that what would any Forsaken know about healing a man from the taint- but they do fear it and only their ties to the DO protect the guys from it.
And Forsaken, being know for their lack of trust, may of thought of a lateral way of dealing with going crazy so as to hedge their bets should they PO the DO.

Course, I could be way off here. Coffee is wearing off.

Freelancer, you old romantic you- Lan and Ny :-)
Angry Midget and Face of Stone
Lannis .
436. Lannis
Dammit! R.Fife! You got me again! ARGH! XD

CalaLily @ 427 Re: Trollocs and cabbage leaves...

I read your previous Trolloc birthing post to my husband. He has decided that you're crazy, but I am slightly more so because instead of just reading it, I decided to share it with him.

So saith the man who recently finished reading WoT through for the first time. My jealousy for this is overshadowed only by the jealousy I have for the mind-blowing he'll have when he decides to pick up the series for the second time and connects mentally how well-planned and thought out the entire thing is!

Mind sex, I tell you! Fraking WoT mind sex!

hoping @ 428: Yes, I agree with the pinata birthing experience for female Trollocs. ::shudders::

SHE-locs! BAHAHAhahaha!

R.Fife @ 434: Screw the teething! Think of the breastfeeding! ACK! :|
Lannis .
437. Lannis
Leigh, come back, puh-lease?! I think I'm starting to twitch...

Or maybe I just keep shuddering from disgust... ACK! :|
Maggie M
438. Eswana
elveyelvey @431
and what about Min? She is the one travelling around with Rand, and actively having *ahem* moments of privacy with him. She a lot of time with Rand and nothing, while Elayne once in 11 books so far and voilà, two kids. Hmm.

I've thought about that too. I'll bet Min is taking Randland's version of the Pill, because otherwise there's no way she and Rand have been that lucky at avoiding her fertile times all these months. Uh-uh.

and as for you, Mr. Fife....
jane reynolds
439. janie
Thanks for that image, Lannis! And the rest of you, too. Gah! Pinatas and Trollocs and Fades and ... Gah! I was enjoying a nice, sunny Wednesday morning, until you lot came along and filled my head with ... ick. *shudder*

On another note ...
Samadai@429 - I like the idea that LTT has been there all along, and it just took Rand channelling to get him to manifest. (For some reason, i keep reading "except Lews Therin who steals the prison") But what I want to know is why aren't there more of them? Why aren't there the past twelve incarnations of the Dragon living in Rand's head? Are Rand and LTT a special case?
440. SRizea
I know I'm late to the party here, but folks were disappointed because Movie-Eragon wasn't up to the standard of Book-Eragon?

My complaint is that Book-Eragon was terrible; the movie doesn't even show up on my radar. It was derivative to the point of lacking a single innovative character, plot point, setting or theme. Eragon's primary effect on my life was to restore my cynical opinion of the mainstream's ability to recognize a quality novel when it thumps them on the head (oringally called into question by Harry Potter).
441. ValanVinyl
@ 417 Randalator:

"It is clear that they do not share the same "mind" per se, even if they truly are separate incarnations of the same soul. "

That sceams schizophrenia to me

I was always under the impression that the Lord of Chaos = The Dragon Reborn. The counter-opinions are very interesting though. Demandred or Moridin would be good candidates as well.

And @ R. Fife

The Light's champion serving the Dark One... (shudder)

Did I mention yet I freakin' love this stuff? I guess that goes without saying after reading 438 comments...
442. ValanVinyl
Damn Janie beat me with the *shudder* comment...
443. Latecomer
Since we're aiming for 500, I may as well do my bit :)

Happy (Belated!) Birthday Leigh

Loving the Athurian Legends discussion, thanks everyone. I know nothing about them so is fascinating stuff.

To all the people who said Lan(celot) hasn't betrayed Rand Ar'Thour - I say - the books aren't finished yet! Lets RAFO :P

Also - If Asmo was wandering around Rhuidean in TAR looking for treas-angreals, why didn't he see the male and female Cheodan Kals? Or take any of them? In fact, why bother going in Tar if he can sneak in via Skimming-lator?

subwoofer - exactly how many posts do you have on this thread? are you keeping it going single-handedly? Of should that be double-handedly - depends on what type of typist you are I guess...

I'm babbling now...
John Massey
444. subwoofer
We are all missing Leigh... reminds me of this song I heard in this show one time.

For all the people who don't see it coming when R.Fife posts-
fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

Soooo, how does Cadsuane know about LTT- the voices- in Rand's head. Was significant enough to give Rand pause.
Richard Fife
445. R.Fife
Sub: what about three times? And I think Cads mentions that she has "studied" other men going mad with the taint, and apparently they heard voices too.
446. Latecomer
"Why aren't there the past twelve incarnations of the Dragon living in Rand's head? Are Rand and LTT a special case? "

"Soooo, how does Cadsuane know about LTT- the voices- in Rand's head. Was significant enough to give Rand pause. "

I'm sure I have heard this before but the special case is LTT - he keeps appearing in Dragon Rreborn minds (forgetting names right now - Amalasain? etc)

Maybe Cads has heard of this since she must have been young enough at some point to remember/ experience a previous incarnation of the DR.

As someone else said, this might well be his last reappearance as its very likely that his crazy appearance is connected to the taint. That wasn't present before the AOL and won't be present from now onwards either.
447. Latecomer
"Sub: what about three times?"

Ooh - a prophecy?
Alice Arneson
448. Wetlandernw
440. SRizea
Eragon's primary effect on my life was to restore my cynical opinion of the mainstream's ability to recognize a quality novel when it thumps them on the head .

What bothers me is not so much the inabilty to recognize a quality novel when it comes, as the inability to distinguish between quality and total drek. Not that I'm pointing fingers at Eragon - I've neither read the book nor seen the movie. But it's something I've noticed... along with the sad lack of ability to do intelligent editing these days.
450. Freelancer

The quote you attribute you Randalator there is actually from one of my posts. You saying we think alike? ::shudders::

I believe that the Lord of Chaos is indeed Rand. I completely understand the other arguments there, and that Rand is meant to bring order, but at this point of the saga, he isn't doing it. He's at that stage of Redeemer development where he knows just enough to be dangerous, not enough to be effective, and chaos does indeed ensue.

The other point to this opinion is that the statement to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", immediately follows a direct order from the Dark One NOT to kill Rand, so the connection is made for us.

Also, I don't see it as schizophrenia for Rand and LTT to be two incarnations of the same soul. While living as a human on this dirtball he made, Jesus prays to his Father, and they are one. Rand's mind and LTT's are distinct from each other, even if they are of the same soul, which I have previously suggested might not be the case.


Asmodean couldn't get into Rhuidean before the shroud of fog was removed. That was why Nynaeve saw him poking at the edges of it. He couldn't enter. Apparently some channelers, who either were dreamers or acting under the direction of dreamers, constructed a massive warding over the city to keep out minions of the Shadow. The two ancient Aes Sedai who were with the Jenn at the first meeting with the clan chiefs are likely candidates. They had much knowledge of the future, considering that they were the ones who told the clan chiefs about He Who Comes With the Dawn.
451. Orideth
I always took "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" as more of a general statement to let things go crazy and sow dissension, rather than identifying any one person as *the* lord of chaos. In the case of Book 6's title, for the time being, the Dark One apparently feels that letting Rand more or less do his thing is the best way to do that.
452. ValanVinyl
@ Freelancer. LOL my bad. I'm about to leave work, which means no more comments from me until the new post tomorrow. (Cinco de Mayo! Hell Yeah!) Good luck reaching 500!
453. Latecomer
Freelancer @450

Thanks - that clears it up!

Where do you get all this info from - was it explained in the book and fell through the holes in my memory?
craig thrift
454. gagecreedlives

That sounds more Raymond E. Feist then Robert Jordan.

And for what it worth Im in the “the-taint-weakens-barriers-between-incarnations-camp, which basically means that LTT is both real and a symptom of taint-induced madness” with Randalator.

R.Fife @445

When Cads first meets Rand she asks him if he is hearing voices yet and explains that other men she has met that can channel hear voices in their head sometimes telling them what to do. Rand feels LTT go very quiet but paying a lot of attention.
sandi vogel
455. sinfulcashew
I always had the feeling that the fades etc. were remade deads.
Nothing 'born' as such.

I remember the 'birth' of the ?(can't remember name)? Ork like big guys in one of the LOTR movies.
He rose up out of some slimy gloop in what looked like a big kettle.
I loved those guys!
My memory isn't so good as I haven't seen the movies for awhile.
456. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
I think one of the Wise Ones mentions that you can't get into Rhuidean from TAR. Or was it Birgitte? The massive warding was just theory. It's dubious how a warding made by Aes Sedai would stand up to an assault from one or two of the Forsaken. Although any sa-angreal picked up in Rhuidean by way of TAR would stay in TAR and absolutely useless in the waking world.
457. Rand Al'Todd
Ancient history:

@86 there was a comment about Birgitte "leading" Nyn to Slayer.

@108 and 126 'cleared this up' - certainly to my satisfaction. But...

Earlier we had the scene where Birgitte stops Perrin from following Slayer into the ToG.

Bottom line, it seems Birgitte was lurking in T'ar following Slayer around (or hunting him???). She says words to the effect that he is the new/current carrier of an 'ancient evil'.

We know Birgitte is/was tied to the wheel. Do we know if she has some special role (i.e. arch enemy) wrt Slayer (or rather the 'ancient evil' he represents)???? In each cycle, does she always oppose this evil, not necessarily the DO???
458. zamzman
My favorite scenes so far.

1. Mat vs Galad/Gawyn
2. Rand and Elayne meet.

Those 2 stick out, but there are lots of others I enjoy reading.
- Rand as Shadowkiller, killing the Trollocs and recovering the horn
- Rand playing the flute and surprising Lanfear
- Perrin as blacksmith
- Mat flirting with Mother Guenna.
459. Freelancer


And there's only a very slight similarity. The Uruk were formed from goblin and elven flesh, plus additional material that is best left unspoken of.

Myrddraal are the occasional accidental offspring of trollocs, that are "genetically" closer to man than beast. Which always caused me to wonder why they take leadership, unless it's simply a matter of having a more human intellect, and therefore greater reasoning.
sandi vogel
460. sinfulcashew

Thanks for the correction.
I was lucky to have it pop into my fuzzy brain as it was.

I was particularly speaking of the Fades.
More fuzzy brain stuff as I can't remember the exact descriptions of Fades, Trollocs, Myrddral (accidental offspring?), and all the bad 'madeup' guys. (as in created for their particular evil job)
sandi vogel
461. sinfulcashew
Oh, oh, oh......
I have been trying to put an avatar for an image in my profile.
The actual size is smaller than allowed, both in size and KB's, but it keeps telling me that it can't do it.
Any one have any ideas about what is wrong?
Captain Hammer
462. Randalator
CalaLily @420

In response to those speculating about the LTT/Rand insanity/soul/saidin thing, I always thought that since time in Randland is cyclical, Rand is literally talking to LTT in his head, who is alive in his own time and talking to Rand in his head.


Option Three: From the loony bin.

It has been suggested that LTT and Rand are actually talking to each other across time. This is fueled by the fact that LTT sometimes seems to regard Rand as being a voice in his head and not the other way around.

However, this is pretty clearly wrong. First, let's not forget that LTT is insane, and any observations he makes are automatically highly suspect. Second, if the real life LTT were talking to Rand across time it would have to be before the Kinslaying incident, since LTT dies very soon afterward, but the LTT in Rand's head moans and groans about killing Ilyena and the rest of his family constantly. Third, and most importantly, the LTT voice is aware of what's going on around Rand (like being stuffed in a box, for example), while Rand has no awareness of anything happening separately to LTT. It's pretty obvious that Rand is the "real" one .
463. sps49
@446 latecomer-

Those others were not Dragons Reborn, but False Dragons.
464. birgit
What if Rand were to get with AVI and the something wierd vision that Min was was that Rand was father of two of the children and LTT was the father of the other two?

Last time I checked, babies didn't come from the soul. Maybe one of the biologists here would differ?

Maybe it would work in TAR if Rand looks like LTT there.

I think one of the Wise Ones mentions that you can't get into Rhuidean from TAR. Or was it Birgitte? The massive warding was just theory. It's dubious how a warding made by Aes Sedai would stand up to an assault from one or two of the Forsaken.

You can't go there in TAR, but there must be some kind of warding in the real world, or Asmo would simple go to Rhuidean there. How does it choose who may go through? It can't be Aiel blood because Mat and Moiraine could pass.

Are shadowbrothers originally animal throwbacks of Trollocs?
Kurt Lorey
465. Shimrod
Shadowbrothers are turned wolves.

I thought the Uruk-Hai were Orcs and Men?

I think Myrddraal are not so much "throwbacks" as crossovers (from the realm of the DO. The "eyeless", "out of phase with time" and "don't dream" things made me think that. Aginor can't explain them. Law of unforeseen consequences.
jane reynolds
466. janie
@461 sinful
Might not be in an accepted format? I think mine's a .gif
John Massey
468. subwoofer
@sinful- yes- my IT department-read wife- suggests that it may be you need to switch your format to jpeg. There is no upload button, just a browse n stuff but it eventually loads if you exit out after and re-log in. Oooh and I thought fades=Myrddraal. Oooh and if anyone tells you that "Cinco de Mayo" means 5 shots of tequila loosely translated, its a lie.
John Massey
469. subwoofer
Option four: From the bargain loony bin

Rj was giving us a read herring when he denied(someone posted this earlier) that there are two souls inhabiting one body. Maybe it would of given away too much and his RAFO falls apart if he leaks something that big. It could be that he was annoyed that someone stumbledon to his theory and he was smiting them.

-Leigh we miss you- please come back, with a new post.
Richard Fife
470. R.Fife
Option Five: From the "Free" Loony bin

LTT's real soul is really split between Narg and Bela, and they use their dreamwalking powers to throw the LTT thoughts into Rand's head.
Michael Ikeda
471. mikeda

The Uruk-hai in general were basically orcs who where larger and stronger than ordinary orcs. Both Saruman and Sauron had Uruk-hai serving them. Saruman's Uruk-hai had greater resistance to sunlight than most orcs. Some of the characters in LOTR speculated that this was the result of crossbreeding of orcs and humans, although I don't think this was ever definitely established.
Blake Engholm
472. UncrownedKing
Favorite scenes:
- Lan telling Nyn that he's in love with her but refuses to let anything come of it "I'll hate the man you choose, because he is not me, and I will love him if he makes you smile"

- Perrin in the smithy recieving the hammer

- Perrin meets Gual...or was it Rhuarc? the Aiel in the village and the insuing Whitecloak deaths.

- All of the Two Rivers Battle (all of TSR)

- All of Rhuidean

- The retelling of the fall of Malkier

- The retelling of the fall of Manetharen

- First time Mat uses his memories and awesomeness
Kurt Lorey
473. Shimrod
subwoofer, I think that Cinco de Mayo derives from some Tabascan slang meaning something like souse the naive hombre. If you have any memory of flashes, you've probably become part of the photo archive at
Kurt Lorey
474. Shimrod
Morgoth's Ring discusses the two types of Uruk-Hai, Sauron's originals and Saruman's refinements. Orcs and Men. See the Wiki.
John Massey
476. subwoofer
@ Shim-This site includes links to Airline tickets and Mexican women. I can't quite remember, but I don't think it got that bad. Going to lay dwn for a bit...
Kurt Lorey
477. Shimrod



Kurt Lorey
478. Shimrod
I should have helped R.Fife out and linked to Rick Astley. Maybe, people would then discontinue referring to him as RickRolla/er? Then again, maybe not.
479. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
birgit @464
He actually does, at the end of the book. He was already inside by the time Rand caught up to him and in fact reached the Choedan Kal access key first.
Galen Brinn
480. GatheringStorm
R.Fife is King Rickroller here; he may not have Rickrolled the most often, but he was the first to do it here.
Maggie M
481. Eswana
Well, Leigh should be posting soon... in the meantime, my top five up till now:

-Moiraine telling Manetheran's history in tEotW

-Lan and Nynaeve's tender/bittersweet moment in the Blight in tEotW

-the appearance of the Heroes of the Horn at the end of tGH (especially where Birgitte says, "you always did choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin") and Mat and Perrin are like, "uh.... anything you want to tell us Rand?"

-the very end of tDR, when everyone is sort of sitting around with a "we really did what?" reaction, and Rhurac sort-of admits that the Aiel are the People of the Dragon

-Rand's adventures in the glass columns in Rhuidean, especially when coupled with Mat's parallel goings-on with the finns

Oh Leigh, we miss you! Come back to us soon.... before we all break out into an overdone Andrew Lloyd Weber ballad Like This
482. Freelancer

Uruk = orcs and men, yes. Was too late for me to be posting, and was busy watching my Boys in Blue win their 12th straight home game. Still no excuse.

The term throwback regarding Myrddraal (Fade/halfman/fetch) is Aginor's own. They are not manufactured intentionally, or Aginor would take credit instead of being just uncertain how they do what they do. They are trolloc spawn, but they are mutant, if you will. Perhaps it's because of the location, where there is much "crossover" energy, that makes them out of phase with Randland time.

Well, a certain unnamed commenter is going to be disappointed in the rest of us. Here it is about time for a fresh installment, and not even halfway to the hoped for milestone, even with some spam, Rickrolls, and loonier than usual looniness thrown in. On the other hand, I'm sure Pablo is pleased.
Chiara Elvira
483. elvyelvy
Pablo may be pleased to his heart content, but if Leigh is not back soon with a post this is what she'll find here.
484. RebelLives
Almost 500 isn't bad considering last time we had another 2 days to post.
485. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Freelancer @482
I don't think Myrddraal are "mutant" so much as "recessive". Though I would admit I can't explain it any better.
Kurt Lorey
486. Shimrod
@482 Freelancer

I was pretty darn impressed with the record home stand for the Dodgers, until I uncovered a copy of their real schedule (so far).

Games 1-3 vs. St. Thomas Aquinas Middle School

Games 4-6 vs. Hollywood All Stars

Games 7-9 vs. 2008 West Little League Champions

Games 9-12 vs. Bhutan Navy - All Fleet Team

That, was kind of a let down.

No, really. The Dodgers are smoking right now. But, could they beat the Red Sox in seven? (not that I endorse the Boston Red Sox in any way, shape or form).
Galen Brinn
487. GatheringStorm
I guess it would depend on how much human genetic material was in a particular egg and it's fertilizing sperm...

Meiosis (the process of making eggs and sperm) isn't quite the same as mitosis (simple cellular division); genes get mixed and crossed so it's a real "roll of the dice" (to the nth degree) as to what you get.
488. CalaLily
I agree with alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed. Fades were an unintentional genetic anomaly that the Shadow took advantage of and used as another, scarier weapon with the Trollocs. :>
John Massey
489. subwoofer
Wife made me a smoothie- with a blender this morning. I'm um and going. See me at 4 somthing- I figured we'd only hit 5hunny.

I always figured that the Myrr were made somehow as there are no other races of man to taint or twist.

Maybe the Gholam were an evolution of the Myrr...
490. OldWoman
re the diversity of the WOT fans. I'm a 68 yr old great GM and read my first SciFi as a young teen. It was a book by Andre Norton and I never looked back. Have been devouring sf&fantasy for more than 50 years. I looked around my living room one Thanksgiving a couple years ago and there were 3 generations reading WOT, all in different books.
491. CalaLily
OldWoman: Now THAT is an accomplishment!! xD The only person I can claim reads the WoT in my family is my uncle, and he's sorta...estranged...from the rest of us...

I'm reading TEotW to my little brother and sister. She's 11, he's 8. I was 11 when I first read From the Two Rivers , so I figured it was time to pass it on. *sagenod* He's more into it than she is, but I think she'll really start to enjoy the story once I get to the telling of Manatheren's fall.

They both tried to read it on their own, but oddly, they had trouble pronouncing the names...
492. JamesEdJones
489 Subwoofer

I don't believe the Gholam could be an evolution on the Myrr. One of the Forsaken (Mesaana, I believe) observed that only a madman would have made the Gholam. And even he wasn't crazy enough to make more than 6.
493. JamesEdJones
Are we all busy hitting F5 on Tor's home page, yet?
Galen Brinn
494. GatheringStorm
subwoofer @ 489,

The Gholam were another creation of Aginor; a direct creation and not an unforseen event like the myrdraal. Almost all of the shadowspawn are Aginor's creations; Trollocs, Draghkar, Gholam, Blight Worms aka, Jumara. Per Sammale this is a supposedly a transitory phase - like butterfly pupae - from which the Jumara can no longer emerge. I'm not sure if he created the darkhounds.
Maggie M
495. Eswana
where Myrdraal come from.

Well, we know they're a "throwback to human stock," so probably a very recessive, mutated gene. After all, there are far few Myrdraal than Trollocs (kind of like there are far fewer people with six fingers than with five ). Also, we know that Myrdraal like to "play" with human women; if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal?
Alice Arneson
496. Wetlandernw
I looked around my living room one Thanksgiving a couple years ago and there were 3 generations reading WOT, all in different books.

That's so cool! I can't even get my husband to read them, though we generally like most of the same books. I think he got bogged down in the beginning of the first book, then when he discovered it was going longer than a trilogy he refused to read it on principle. *sigh* Maybe I can get my daughter hooked in a few years - she's only 6 (almost) but is already loving Narnia, so I expect she's a good sff candidate. :)
John Massey
497. subwoofer
If Leigh is feeling like I am then I am sure that it may be awhile for the post. Noise of a keyboard still hurts. ouch. Yse, I seem to remember somebody saysing it is not a good idea to make stuff the power can't touch. Just remember that the Myrrd and then the Super Myrrd having come from somewhere- shadowspan somethig or other.
-edit thanks eswna- didnt' want to het delete. Effort.
498. nickeyw
soo close to 500!

shimrod @465 shadowbrothers are turned wolves

I'm unsure why but i always thought they were the wolves slayer had killed.

Subwoofer @489

Aren't the gholam a construct by aginor with a few side effects he didn't expect, rather like the nym were a construct from the AOL.

Fav scenes: Mat at tar valon and in tear when he rescues the superbrats and they just have a go at him. Rand telling everyone he's leaving tear and giving the nobles their orders from Moirane's very pissed of POV - hilarious.

Come on Leigh!!! *twitch*
Maggie M
499. Eswana
JamesEd @ 493
I think that's why we broke the server last time. (repeated refreshing). So maybe.... not so much on the F5-ing?
Alice Arneson
500. Wetlandernw
Myrdraal like to "play" with human women; if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal

I thought Myrdraal were sterile. Not positive, though. Someone else know?
Kurt Lorey
501. Shimrod
subwoofer. Please explain.

Is there some other way to make a smoothie?

Or, are you writing with euphemistic code phrases?

Eswana, somebody (like Aginor?) assumed Myrddraal were throwbacks. No facts.

And no wonder he wasn't allowed to perform genetic research by the Collaam Daan. No perspective.
John Fitzingo
502. Xandar01
@493. JamesEdJones

Wouldn't it be great to see how much the hit rate on goes up these mornings as we all F5 like crazy.

Also wonder if any of the staff is watching and worrying if this post will exploded before the next one is up?
503. CalaLily
Eswana: I imagine Myrrdraal "play" in the sense of skillful and excruciating torture. Like what they did to Jaichim Carridin's sister. Apparently being killed and eaten by the trollocs was preferable to the Fade's treatment, because she was smiling on the spit. Carridin was given this news when he was meeting with Mili Skane/Lady Shiaine.
John Massey
504. subwoofer
OldWoman- first, Love the handle. I can't get my family to read let alone big books. Got my friends and office staff going on the series though. Now I have the added selling point of the fact the series will be finished.

And yay for posting. Hope to hear much from you. Just quietly right now...

Just trying to figure out how they-Myrrd- are linked to Trollocs- how they get their powers- where their weopons are forged etc. The DO is locked in an egg- Do Trollocs and Myrrdraal have homes and stuff- a big kingdom in the waste?
Blake Engholm
506. UncrownedKing
You are my family haha. This past spring break, I was on CoT my younger brother on LoC and my father was thinking about starting another re-read. I have had countless WOT theorizing conversations with my brother and father. My brother is half way through LoC and thinks something big is going to happen to Rand......DONT TELL HIM.

Pure Awesomeness. If only my mother would get into the books.

"Do you, by chance, have six fingers on your right hand?" hahahaha

"Myrdraal like to "play" with human women; if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal"

It would be Ephialtes (see 300). No way it comes out normal.

Darkhounds were created by Agrinor I'm thinkin. And they went off and procreated (via vampire/zombie like activity).

Can gateway kill Gholam? I think it might be able to. The Gholam is not affected by the OP, but either is Mat's Necklace. And Mat has the ability to go through a gateway with the necklace. So this leads me to believe that the gholam would be able to go through the gate, thus, the gateway would scrmble whatever its made of and thus kill it..........

Is this a reasonable theory? I think so.
Michael Catapano
507. hoping
wot encyclopedia says that they are not sterile but they can't reproduce with either trollocs or humans. They are all male, so what else would they mate with? Jumara?
508. JamesEdJones
499 Eswana

No problem. I'll stop spamming refresh.

495 Eswana: if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal?

It would be very unpopular in school...
John Massey
509. subwoofer
@shim-blender makes noise- wife is evil.
510. seanie
Happy belated Leigh--hope you don't have olive OD-
top 5 moments {major HHMMMM } so the top of my head anyway.....

no particular order...
Moi's manetheran (sp? ) story

Rand's battle at Tarwin Gap

Aiel flashbacks at Rhuidean

Mat's fight with emo and elmo
(looking forward to them finding Rand is Galad's half bro)

Perrins conversation with wolves where He finds
the wolves know Rand as Shadowkiller.
Talk about rabid fans.....
Michael Catapano
511. hoping
Uncrowned King
Using a gateway on a gholam sounds like it should work, but maybe it creates two, smaller gholams, or gholettes
512. CalaLily
subwoofer: The Fades get their weapons from Thrakan'dar, a forge at the base of Shayol Ghul. I don't think the link is ever explained; it can't be a thing of the Power because Myyrdraal can't channel, but it sounds kind of like the sul'dam/damane link in that if the sul'dam dies, the damane dies.

We also know Trollocs have tribes, and apparently a breeding colony. . Aginor said Fades weren't quite in sync with our reality, so that might have something to do with their abilities i.e. jumping from shadow to shadow/still cloaks in the highest winds.
Maggie M
513. Eswana
hoping @511

maybe it creates two, smaller gholams, or gholettes

that's either 1) hilarious or 2) terrifying

I can't decide.
Alice Arneson
514. Wetlandernw
Re: Shadowbrothers (a.k.a. Darkhounds) from the WoTFAQ:

(in CoT) Elyas tells Perrin: "They were wolves, once. The souls of wolves, anyway, caught and twisted by the Shadow. That was the core used to make Darkhounds, Shadowbrothers. I think that's why the wolves have to be at the Last Battle. Or maybe Darkhounds were made because wolves will be there, to fight them. A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren't quite dead yet, and in a year or so, there'd be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn't remember ever being wolves. I hope they don't remember, anyway."
Perrin wants to know if they can also eat the soul of a Wolfbrother, a man who can talk to wolves, but Elyas doesn't know.

So they can't come from the wolves Slayer kills in TAR, because when you kill a wolf in TAR he's gone forever. No soul left to "eat". It has been speculated that Slayer is the human equivalent to a darkhound, that he could "eat the soul" of a wolfbrother. No proof on this.
515. CalaLily
I just remembered this. I showed my The Shadow Rising book to a few friends, and they said, "Oh! You like Westerns?"
517. JamesEdJones
Top 5 (until now)

Rand's fight with Turok.

Perrin walking in to find Loil and Mistress Al'Vere twitching at each other. (yep, twitching)

Mat's pounding of Galad and Gawyn.

Mat's Healing

Nyneave's Acceptatron conclusion, where she leaves Lan and stalks out pissed with thorns in her hands (little Christ symbolism there).
518. JamesEdJones
511 Hoping

Any chance that, as Shadowspawn, the Gholam would just die going through a gateway?
Luke M
519. lmelior
For all of you that are spamming F5, one word: ReloadEvery.

Save your fingers for typing the comments!
Michael Catapano
520. hoping
Good point. I was thinking you could just slice them. Maybe gateway death depends on how the shadowspawn are made, i.e. sharing trolloc biologics is required. Don't know, but if killing a gholam were easy the forsaken would not be so leary of them.
521. Freelancer

Don't start with me, you'll lose. That slate of teams you named is currently over .500 against the "real" teams in the league. The Sox? LA has better team hitting, runs, RBI, team ERA, runs allowed, walks/hits per inning pitched. And we have your slugger. How's Papi doing so far?
0 HR, 14 RBI, .331 OBP, .225 AVG
6 HR, 18 RBI, .491 OBP, .348 AVG

Now, on topic while he recovers...


Yep, we are talking the same thing. The simple way to put it is they (fades) are unintentional, abnormal trolloc spawn, with inexplicable attributes and abilities.

(BTW, for Brandon Sanderson fans, ever think fades might have provided an inspiration for Steel Inquisitors?)

Wetlandernw@500 (Woot)

Yes, Myrddraal are ALWAYS male, WOT encyclopaedia says they cannot reproduce.

RE: Slayer is to Darkhounds as Perrin is to Wolves. No evidence at all to support this. No onscreen interaction between Slayer and darkhounds. He isn't opposite of what Perrin is in the way darkhounds are compared to wolves. He just likes to kill them.
Maggie M
522. Eswana
um.... just 'cause I was inspired by this week's HIMYM:

WoT Re-read: Quantifying the Crazy
Captain Hammer
523. Randalator
Shimrod @501

somebody (like Aginor?) assumed Myrddraal were throwbacks. No facts.

Somebody (like RJ) confirmed that Myrddraal were throwbacks. Fact.

[quote]A letter from RJ in which I foolishly asked whether Trollocs breed, or whether they're grown in a big vat at Shayol Ghul; and various "monster-of-the-day lessons" sprinkled throughout the books.]

* The original source was a mixing of human and animal genes in an attempt to produce the "perfect soldier," as envisioned by somebody (Aginor) who'd never seen actual combat.
* There are female Trollocs, but we don't want to know more than that.
* Where Myrddraal come from: occasionally, a Trolloc offspring is a genetic throwback in the direction of the original human stock, but not all the way back, and twisted. Thus, eyeless but with super vision, very strong (but not as strong as a Trolloc), and the shadow-traveling ability.
* Myrddraal take their "pleasures" with human females, who suffer horribly from the experience; it drives them mad, if they survive at all.

Of course, the diapers of baby Myrddraal don't wave in the wind. :)[/quote] (WoTFAQ)

524. JamesEdJones
522 Eswana

Eswana, we've called you here for an intervention...
525. CalaLily
The original source was a mixing of human and animal genes in an attempt to produce the "perfect soldier," as envisioned by somebody (Aginor) who'd never seen actual combat.

Reminds me of a thing I watched on how Stalin wanted to create a supersoldier from cross-breeding human women and male apes.
Blake Engholm
526. UncrownedKing

Bahahahahah hilarious and soooo sad.
Go Light!
Kurt Lorey
527. Shimrod
Thanks Randalator!

You are truly the Quote King (as opposed to being the King of RickRoller, or something).
Maggie M
528. Eswana
JamesEd @524

btw, sometimes I watch HIMYM and think, "Wow, Barney is a little like Mat. Except Mat isn't quite so gross. (200, man, really? ugh!)
Kurt Lorey
529. Shimrod
@521 Freelancer.

Bhutan doesn't have a Navy.
530. JamesEdJones
528 Eswana

I think Barney tries to be like Mat. But, you have to remember, Marshall is the one who always wins. Might be a little taveren luck workin' for him.
Alice Arneson
531. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @521 RE: Slayer is to Darkhounds as Perrin is to Wolves. No evidence at all to support this. No onscreen interaction between Slayer and darkhounds. He isn't opposite of what Perrin is in the way darkhounds are compared to wolves. He just likes to kill them.

Yeah, the WoTFAQ id's that as "looney theory" stuff, especially since Slayer doesn't have poison immunity, which seems like it would be requisite to close association with Darkhounds. But the "Dark Prophecy" in TGH seems to tie Slayer to the darkhounds in some fashion - i.e. it hints that there is a connection, but gives no real clue what that connections might be.

We need a new post. My sentences are starting to run on rather badly. Blame it on the flu? or lack of new post? Whatever.
Sean Banawnie
532. Seanie
itching and twitching returning...
mini-gholams , breastfeeding myrrdal ,breeding trollocs, Ohmy ! Hope I can sleep tonite..*shudder*
533. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Randalator @523
Shaidar Haran takes his pleasures from Moggy and Messy.
534. CalaLily
Shelocs = male trollocs + boobs

That's the only way I could envision them. x.x
Maggie M
535. Eswana
James Ed @ 530

Marshall always wins, it's true. He's so awesome at games (and general life events )! Must be ta'veren. Duh!

Clearly, Bays & Thomas are secret WoT fans. In fact, they're probably reading this re-read with us right now.
Chiara Elvira
536. elvyelvy
all hail lmelior, the Uncrowned King of self-refresh!!!

Eswana, was it really necessary to point out our degree of WoT-addiction? *sighs and sees twitching just round the corner*
537. JamesEdJones
535 Eswana

Well, they're clearly not doing much writing. Last week was just about the biggest disappointment of a bad season (without Lilly).

Honestly, I was stunned when I saw that Ted had picked up the yellow umbrella as he walked out the door. But to leave us with Stella at the end?!?! I was disgusted. On the other hand, I don't want to lose Scrubs and HIMYM in the same year.

BTW, Leigh, where are you?
Shawn Spearman
538. fishes153
Freelancer @521

I totally agree with you on this. I thought the same thing the first time I read about the Steel Inquisitors (SI). But for me SI are far scarier than Myrds. I think it is because they used to be human. That near reality is far scarier than a monster that was created.
539. Freelancer

The reference in the dark prophecy at Fal Dara is not to darkhounds. It is to Slayer, and I believe, Fain.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.

Hard to separate Slayer from those lines, and insert darkhounds instead. The hunt begun is for the Dragon Reborn. Remember, in the book this takes place not long after the DF Social. All three ta'veren are wanted, they don't know which one is The One. The WOTFAQ insists that the hounds reference in those lines means darkhounds, but there is more than one kind of hound serving the shadow.

When first questioned by Moiraine after his capture at the Fal Dara keep, Fain told her that the Dark One made him his hound, and set him to hunt. He has no choice but to hunt the ta'veren trio. That's why he screamed, "I will not be compelled, no more!"

So let's just pretend that RJ wrote Fain calling himself the DO's hound, set to hunt, then in a later scene at the same location we read dark prophecy about the shadow's hounds now course and kill, but there's NO CONNECTION. Hmmm. Not likely.
Sean Banawnie
540. Seanie
are we looking at 600? *sighs*
@522 Eswana
...knew I was crazy but now I've been quantified too.......time to call WOTanon....
Shawn Spearman
541. fishes153
To further my comment on Steel Inquisitors (SI) v. Myrds...

I think it is how they were written as well. For me RJ described the Myrds as evil, but the description never really pushed that "fear" button with me.

If I go back to my first read of LOTR, I remember actually feeling panic everytime the word DHOOM occured when the Balrog was stalking the fellowship. That passage damn near terrified me.

SI had almost the same effect with their scanning of the population. That "fear" sense was almost palpable as I read that.

Dunno, maybe its just me...
542. JamesEdJones
Wow. Mr 1000 hasn't posted for over 30 comments, now. Subwoofer, are you OK? Did Cinco De Mayo finally get you?
543. MadMardigan
@539 Freelancer

This passage references all 3 things. Fain has been labelled the dark one's hound throughout the books. Slayer could easily be considered a hound in this, although if the preceeding two lines were omitted, I doubt most would make that connection. The hunt and connection to the darkhounds is a reference to the Wild Hunt in norse mythology.
Maggie M
544. Eswana
fishes @541
Maybe it's because we don't actually have any close encounters with Myr and what they can do until later. At the beginning of tEotW all they do is stare at the Boys and creep them out. Not too awful. Also, I don't know about SI, but Myrdraal are almost considered fairy tales in the beginning of the book; kind of like if someone told you that the Big Bad Wolf was coming. You'd totally laugh it off. The Emonds' Fielders do, and so the reader does too, at least at first.
Alice Arneson
545. Wetlandernw
539. Freelancer
The reference in the dark prophecy at Fal Dara is not to darkhounds. It is to Slayer, and I believe, Fain.

That's entirely possible. I'm not really arguing for one or the other, but since the subject came up I have to play DA and toss in whatever other theories I've come across.

Sorry, the flu is getting me. Another time I'd have a blast with this debate (even if I don't actually have an opinion.) As it is, I can just about manage remembering stuff I've read and posting quotes. I'm afraid original thought is beyond my power this morning.
Shawn Spearman
546. fishes153
Eswana @544

Yep. I think that's part of it too. The SI are very involved, very terrifying and no fairy tale. Fun stuff.
John Fitzingo
547. Xandar01
Freelancer @521 & 529. Shimrod

What's even better about the SIs is how Brandon Describes their sight. With the Myrddraal, all we get is that they can some how "see" even though they don't have eyes.
548. Freelancer

I agree that SI are more formidable. In the first Mistborn book, only one SI was killed in a straight up fight, and that barely. (Marsh "unplugged" the others, that's surprise, not battle). And yes, that they can be seen in day-to-day life makes them impossible to deny. Add the perception that they cannot be killed...

Myrddraal in TEotW are very fearsome at first, but they don't actually do much beside be there, or drive trollocs, so they lose some of that before the book ends. Add Thom going on the offensive against one. And in the volumes since, they have turned into little more than the cannon fodder we know as trollocs for inducing fear in the reader.


I don't disagree at all. But I don't accept the argument that Slayer is therefore closely connected with the darkhounds. There is nothing in the story that ties them together, only stretched conjecture from the dark prophecy, then a further stretch that he creates new darkhounds by killing wolves. When that line states, "The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill", it could easily be refering to all three; Slayer, Fain, darkhounds, without suggesting that they are tied together in any other way. Really, we could say that everyone who attended the DF Social is now a hound of the shadow as well, for they have all been set to hunt the ta'veren trio.
David Dudley
549. Warspoon
Leigh, oh Leigh, turn not your face from us, your humble supplicants! Grace us with your presence! Favor us with your words! Bless us with your wisdom! Scorn us not, for our spirits hunger for your re-read! Amen.
Maggie M
550. Eswana
We have had a Shaidar Haran POV, yes? (quick shout out to wotmania's handy POV index for finding it) Somehow, I don't think I was really freaked out reading from behind his/its non-existent eyes. If anything, he reminded me of Agent Smith. ie, "He feels achy and weak, too long away from Shayol Ghul. He badly wants to find a way to sever that tie. He Travels with the edge of a shadow." (summary quote lifted from
551. JamesEdJones
549 Warspoon

Sean Banawnie
553. Seanie
PMI , I haven't read any Sanderson yet , what book are these SI from?
David Dudley
554. Warspoon
@553 Seanie

His Mistborn Trilogy.
Shawn Spearman
555. fishes153
Seanie @553

They are from the Mistborn series that Brandon Sanderson wrote. I highly recommend you read it before he finishes The Gathering Storm. That story is amazing!
556. JamesEdJones
553 Seanie

SI = Steel Inquisitors from Mistborn: The Final Empire, Mistborn: The Well of Asencion (Sp), and Mistborn: The Hero of Ages.

Good Stuff!
Chris Maurer
557. grayfox
I'm kind of glad Leigh is posting late since I had over 100 comments to read since I left work yesterday. However, now I'll be compulsively hitting F5 with the rest of you...
Jared Farish
558. jfarish102
Greetings to all WoT fans. I have been a fan since the books came out, although I have not been involved in the online scene. Have recently started rereading the series in prep for the new book, and am enjoying it immensely all over again.

Have been lurking in these posts, and have learned a lot about the books (and about other things, which I shant repeat). Looking forward to much more fun in the months to come!
Chris Maurer
559. grayfox
Oh and in case anyone is curious, Sanderson updated his progress bar and has aMoL2: "Shifting Winds" at 49% complete.
560. JamesEdJones
558 Jarfish

Yeah, that's the first rule of TorClub.
562. JamesEdJones
Sorry, jfarish102.
David Dudley
563. Warspoon
559 grafox

From a recent Sanderson blog post:

"I'm still working on a post talking about AMOL: Book Two and THE WAY OF KINGS . . ."

Is the title of Book Two being changed to "The Way of Kings?"
Maggie M
564. Eswana
grayfox @ 559

I know!!! How awesome is that!?!! However, even when it's 100% complete there are still line edits, continuity edits, etc, so I think we'll still be looking at tGS November 3, 2009, and SW November 2010 at the earliest.

Also, see Brandon's blog post about this

Welcome to the dollhouse baby.
Sean Banawnie
565. Seanie
AMOL2 !!
Thanx for the tips , folks , I will check them out now that finals are over ..*rubs bloodshot eyes *
Jared Farish
566. jfarish102
No prob, JamesEdJones. I know who you meant!

Even though I haven't followed online over the years, I have spent the last three days reading EVERY entry in the WOTFAQ. That has been a great help. Hard to keep track of everybody as a reader! I'm amazed at how RJ did it as the author. He was an amazing writer.
Ofer Nave
567. odigity
No. The working title of book 2 is "Shifting Winds", but it will be changed before being published.
Ofer Nave
568. odigity
"495 Eswana: if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal?"

It would be very unpopular in school...

I am Damien!
569. BlacksmithButNotEmo least Brandon is using "Shifting Winds" as a working title for AMoL2, rather than "Breaking Winds"...

570. Wolfman Joe
The Way of Kings is another Sanderson book that he's worked on for years -- NOT WOT related.
Chris Maurer
571. grayfox
Eswana, yes but its exciting to know that work is being done on SW and the "writing" piece of it is almost halfway!
572. JamesEdJones
563 Warspoon

Sanderson made reference to another book called The Way of Kings. Here's a blog about it.

I guess it's the next independent one of Sanderson's that he's working on.
Blake Engholm
573. UncrownedKing

I think Leigh has the Swine Flu
Galen Brinn
574. GatheringStorm
Sanderson has made comments of his own, personal books that he's contractually obligated to finish. The man must type nonstop, 24/7/365 in order to work on/finish all 3 AMoL books plus whatever works of his own that he's obliged to finish during the next three years.
John Fitzingo
575. Xandar01
549 Warspoon: amen

566. jfarish102: Welcome!! Add a favorite scene list or song/character match-ups.

522. Eswana: Love the graph, now you have to correlate some of those spikes, spanking debate, gender debate/flame war, dragon con, etc.

So when did everyone here find out about the Re-read?
Looks like there was a jump in interest around the beginning of TSR. I think I found it while it still was in EoTW, but I didn't post semi regularly till early TSR (as jlfitz) and finally started using my account just before the con.
sandi vogel
576. sinfulcashew
466, 467, 468.....
Thanks for the info.
I changed it from a bitmap to a jpg before and it wouldn't take it. I tried the refresh and delete and all and still????
I will rethink again and try again.
I really appreciate the help!!!!!
Shawn Spearman
577. fishes153
Sinful @ 576

I don't know if this will help or not...

When I went to set up mine, it was too big. I right clicked on the jpeg and clicked 'edit'. Then I scaled it down till it worked. You could try that and scale up till it works.
Jared Farish
578. jfarish102
Favorite scene(s): anytime rand, mat, or perrin kicks butt!

Other favorite scene: when Perrin and Faile confess to one another who they really are: why? because, like Leigh said, it's one of the few times when the characters actually talk (and listen!) to each other.
Chris Maurer
579. grayfox
Xandar01: started lurking midway through tGH in Leigh's re-read. started posting sometime during tDR after I got caught up on the posts/comments. I've been a little ahead of the re-read on my own (just started LoC this weekend...I'm pretty excited to hit Dumai's Wells again!)
Alice Arneson
580. Wetlandernw
576. sinfulcashew

You might try saving it as a .gif, too. Of course, I squirreled around with pixel dimensions and everything at the same time. I think in order to get the file size down I dropped to 16-color, too. Just some of the things I tried. Couldn't really tell you which one finally fixed it, but keep trying!
Galen Brinn
581. GatheringStorm
Gahh...3:30 EST and still no new thread.

*twitch* *shake*
582. mazza313
i know gathering storm. AHH! i am so ready for a work dammit!! or post why you aren't posting!!!
Ellie Virgo
583. Egglie
fave scenes;

verin pov when she thinks about giving the notes to Eg.

Nyneave leaving the two sul dam to Justice.

Mat meeting Thom in the tavern in tar valon - try not to eat the table.

Rand falling over the wall into the royal palace.

Nynaeve and Lan in the blight.

I could go on, its tough to cut it down to five.
Blake Engholm
584. UncrownedKing
It has to be under 100 kb so if you have a big pic edit it and skew it to 80% horizontal and 80% vertical. it worked for me
AJ MacPherson
585. Mackey62
I am starting to think Leigh really wants to see if we will get to 1000.

Plus if she is like the rest of us, really hard to get "work" done when everytime you hit refresh 5 more posts are up.
Deborah Jones
586. NanaD
There will be no post until it is time.

Brothers and Sisters of WOT, let us wait with patience the wait that is set before us.

Mr. D., we did not break the pretty this time.
Luke M
587. lmelior
It seems the re-read addiction is very progressive, as it took far less time for the withdrawal symptoms to appear. In fact, the incoherent rambling now begins as soon as the post is consumed. Involuntary muscle contractions now beginning three days post-post.

Woe betide anyone still reading when we reach the end of the series. It would be quite interesting if Leigh took an unannounced break today, and possibly Friday as well. I predict mass suicides.
Alice Arneson
588. Wetlandernw
Not sure about the suicides, but would be seriously hurting.
Dru O'Higgins
590. bellman

Sinfulcashew @576
The avatar I downloaded from the above site worked for me with no fiddling.
sandi vogel
591. sinfulcashew
For a title, how about 'break like the wind'? (teehee)
Leigh better hurry up.....

To Old Woman
I am another of the same age.
I can't get any of my family to read the series.
Oh, except my nephews wife. She's the one that introduced me to them about 10 years ago.
My daughter in law read TEOTW and didn't like it.
Oh well!
We certainly have a LOT of readers here!!!!!

I have to say my favorite scene is in one of the later books.
It blew (wind?hehe) me away when I read it.
Alan Perry
592. stepper


Alright which one of you children put the Silverpike in the Grunter pond?!!

AND Whoever has been using my best sea-folk porcelain to play in the sand is in for a spanking!

ARRRRGGGHHH! There is a Giant GOAT-BEAKED Trolloc in my office!!!!

Oh this can't be good, I'm already hallucinating and mixing my animal part references.

GOOD LORD MAN! .....I brought up the whole spanking thing again!
Richard Fife
593. R.Fife
ya'll are funny. I wonder why I don't get all twitchy.

New post here.
Amar Ramraj
594. aiel1219
Ohhh!!! Thank goodness for Blog tech n web browsing on phones... this meeting wud be soooo boring otherwise.
*Sigh* but it's still tough to type a comment (even with the touch screen QWERTY kbd)

NEways, my 2 cents on Slayer killin wolves is to get them outta the way for TG. I don't remember the exact quote but Hopper tells Perin that they will hunt together in the last battle or something like that (I had the quote on an earlier reread).
595. JamesEdJones
593 RFife

Now see, my whole conspiracy theroy, behind why no new reread has been posted, centered around the fact that no one had RickRolled us in over 100 posts (I'm just assuming when I saw the link).
Rich Bennett
596. Neuralnet
no new post yet??? Ack!! That must have been some birthday party. Now how am I supposed to blow off work if the new post doesnt come out until after 5pm. I will actually have to read this on my own time. Its is all a conspiracy man... the govt. is using TOR to make us work harder.
Maggie M
597. Eswana
don't even try Fife. We know better by now. Or at least, we should. :-)
Galen Brinn
598. GatheringStorm
Methinks that Pablo The Great is testing us: He is in charge of when new threads go up (and theoretically in charge when old threads break due to over-posting).

As we get closer to 5 EST with no new thread, if this one breaks, I say we blame PabloDefindini...
599. JamesEdJones
598 Cloudy

Ya think they're just waiting for 600?

...or until we break it again?
Chiara Elvira
600. elvyelvy
Eswana@597, maybe our favourite bearded AS doesn't itch, but he sure is in for a good solemn switching... :-)
Maggie M
603. Eswana
I don't think they like it being broken either.

Oh Pablo..... please throw us a bone here. We loves you precious!
Michael Catapano
604. hoping
Unfortunately, I don't know better
I'm sorry to admit that I like the song
Richard Fife
605. R.Fife
That was not, in fact, a RickRoll.

And yes, I think Pablo gets the same sadistic pleasure of tormenting you that I do. As to conspiracies...

Pablo does have a command center in his underground layer. You do the math.

And I only have a goatee, thank ya much. I have worn a full mountain-man beard before, and half the time I think I want to go clean shaven, but my internal self-image is too moored to the goatee.

Why do none of our main heros have goatees, anyway? It's beard or nothing. I think Mat would look rockin' with a well-trimmed goat.
sandi vogel
606. sinfulcashew
Not Found

The requested URL /Notinfactalink. was not found on this server.

Akkkkk!This is what is at the link some 'idiot'? posted a while back.
It got me all excited?
(I just looked up the idiot and found R.Fife in it's place.) How did he/she come up with that?
607. mike187638742384786472306
608. BlacksmithButNotEmo
Certainly the erstwhile Mr. Defindini has stated his hope that the (twitching) faithful peruse the other posted Tor content...holding on posting would encourage that behavior for the post junkies...

...also, we may be stress testing Tor's fixes from the last Breaking Of The World, I mean, Thread.
Chiara Elvira
609. elvyelvy
hohoo, I MADE IT, 600... but, hey, one moment, we have lost subwoofer somewhere. I think he must have fainted/collapsed on some sofa. Damn, he is not contributing to the effort... men are never around when they are needed!
*ducks a rain of vegetables and eggs* It was not me, THAT WAS NYNAEVE!!! She took over my post!!!
Maggie M
610. Eswana
It’s up! (and since my name is not Richard Fife, I promise that this link is legit)
Also… I think we almost broke (again). A few minutes ago it couldn’t load past comment 350ish or so.
::is ashamed::
Sorry Pablo
Go Light!
Alan Perry
611. stepper

"God'll get you for that" R.Fife

-Maude (may she rest in peace)
Torie Atkinson
612. Torie
@ 598 and onward:

Actually, I schedule posts. :)

In any case, I do ask that you folks be patient with these things, and try not to let the whole comment thread just be "Are we there yet?" or no one's going to Disneyworld!

Galen Brinn
613. GatheringStorm
I've already looked at other threads...didn't feel the desire to post in those. Been waiting on a new WoT thread all damn day, so again...if this one breaks, blame = Pablo. He should know by now what we WoTians are like w/o a new thread to chew on...

craig thrift
614. gagecreedlives

"495 Eswana: if a child resulted from those unions would it be a Trolloc or a Myrdraal?"

It would be very unpopular in school...

I am Damien!"

Damien: Everybody hates me.
Mr. Mackey: Why do you suppose that is?
Damien: Because I'm the son of the Devil.
Mr. Mackey: Mm'kay, that's a good start. Why else?
Damien: Because I burn and kill them?
Hilde Sørensen
619. edlihs
Isn't Nynaeve supposed to heal someone 3 days dead? The Messiah hint Elayne thinks: "she wouldn't be satisfied before she healed someone three days dead" (cannot remember were) This supports your theory.

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