Apr 13 2009 3:54pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Shadow Rising, Part 10

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to the continuing continuation of the Wheel of Time Re-read on this-a here Today we continually continue with Part 10 of The Shadow Rising, in which we cover Chapters 29-31.

Previous entries can be found here. As always, beware of spoilers for the entire series, both in the post and in the comments.

As a reminder, this is the last post I will be making this week, as I am off to Georgia for some type of gathering about something, I don’t know, I just go where they tell me. I kid, I kid! Seriously, JordanCon looks like it’s going to be a ton of fun and I can’t wait. Regular posts should resume next week.

Let’s get to it, then!

Chapter 29: Homecoming

What Happens
The party travels for three days, mostly quietly; Perrin mentally wavers between anger and longing regarding Faile. Loial is obviously very upset about the situation, while Gaul seems to find it all very amusing. Perrin worries about Slayer, and about his family. When they reach the Westwood, Perrin alters their direction to head for the al’Thor farm, but when they reach it they find it burned to the ground. The Aiel check the ruins and report no bodies. Faile tentatively asks whose farm this is, and is taken aback by his curt answer. He turns away from her, takes Gaul aside, and tells him they will camp here tonight and go on to Emond’s Field in the morning; very early, before Faile is awake. Gaul opines that he will not be rid of Faile so easily, but Perrin ignores him. They sneak away in the pre-dawn and soon arrive at the Winespring Inn, where Perrin hurries in before anyone can take note of him. He finds Marin and Bran al’Vere in the common room; they jump to their feet and stare at him as much as at Gaul. Bran is not even sure it is Perrin at first, looking at his beard and the cut on his cheek, then asks if Egwene is with him. Perrin tells them that Egwene is studying to be Aes Sedai, as is Nynaeve; Marin nods and says she’s received letters from Egwene saying so. Perrin thinks guiltily that he hasn’t written a single letter to anyone at home since he left. Then he realizes Gaul is just standing there and makes hasty introductions. Bran blinks at finding Gaul is Aiel, but Marin welcomes him, and Gaul greets her as a roofmistress, asking “leave to defend your roof and hold”. Gaul then gives Marin a gold salt cellar as a “guest gift”, and Perrin thinks that Marin hides her shock very well, considering it’s probably the most expensive thing in the Two Rivers. Bran asks what Perrin is doing there, and Perrin says he’d heard about the Whitecloaks. Bran tells him he can’t do anything about them, and should leave before they find out he’s here, and Marin urges the same.

“I cannot. You know they are after me, or you’d not want me to go.” And they had not commented on his eyes, even to ask if he was ill. Mistress al’Vere had barely been surprised. They knew. “If I give myself up, I can stop some of it. I can keep my family—” He jumped as the hall door banged open to admit Faile, followed by Bain and Chiad.

Outraged, Faile demands to know if he’d been planning on giving himself up from the start; doesn’t he know they will hang him? Perrin replies that he killed Whitecloaks, ignoring Marin’s gasp, and adds that they think he’s a Darkfriend. Faile whispers that it would be more likely for the sun to be a Darkfriend, and Perrin replies that it doesn’t change what he has to do.

“You addle-brained lummox! You don’t have to do any such crackpate thing! You goose-brain! If you try it, I’ll hang you myself!”

“Perrin,” Mistress al’Vere said quietly, “would you introduce me to this young woman who thinks so highly of you?”

Faile is embarrassed to realize she had been ignoring the al’Veres, and offers elaborate curtsies and apologies. Bain and Chiad do as Gaul had, offering a gold bowl and a silver pepper mill as guest gifts. Marin takes the women under her wing and soon has them seated with tea and washcloths; Perrin thinks this would have been more amusing if he and Gaul had not been as powerless to resist her as Faile and Bain and Chiad. Gaul, of course, thinks it’s funny anyway. Bran tells Perrin that there is no reason for him to let himself be hanged, and Perrin replies that if they do not get him, they might turn to his family, and Perrin will not allow that. Bran looks away, and tells Perrin his family is gone. Perrin takes this to mean that the farm is burned already, and asks who they are staying with, then.

“They are dead, my boy,” Bran said in a rush.

“Dead? No. They can’t be—” Perrin frowned as wetness suddenly slopped over his hand, stared at the crumpled cup as though wondering where it had come from. “I am sorry. I didn’t mean to—” He pulled at the flattened silver, trying to force it back out with his fingers. That would not work. Of course not. Very carefully, he put the ruined cup in the middle of the table. “I will replace it. I can—” He wiped his hand on his coat, and suddenly found he was caressing the axe hanging at his belt. Why was everyone looking at him so oddly?

Bran and Marin confirm that it was all of the Aybaras: his parents and brother and sisters, and his aunts and uncles and cousins. Bran had helped bury them under the apple trees. Flatly, Perrin asks why even Whitecloaks would do such a thing, and Marin tells him it was Trollocs, and there have been several attacks in the countryside; the Whitecloaks are their only real protection. Perrin asks about the al’Thor farm, and Bran says no, that was Whitecloaks, along with the Cauthon place; Tam and Abell are hiding in the Westwood, and Mat’s mother and sisters are alive, too. Bran also tells him Padan Fain is with the Whitecloaks, though he calls himself Ordeith now and won’t answer to his old name.

“He’s a Darkfriend,” Perrin said absently. Adora and Deselle always put apple blossoms in their hair in the spring. “Admitted from his own mouth. He brought the Trollocs, on Winternight.” Paet liked to climb in the apple trees; he would throw apples at you from the branches if you did not watch him.

Bran is grimly unsurprised, and tells how Fain led the Whitecloaks that burned Tam’s farm, and arrested the Cauthon women as well as Haral and Alsbet Luhhan, and would have hung them if Lord Bornhald hadn’t stopped him; there are prices on the head of anyone related to Perrin, Mat, or Rand. Bran and Marin both argue that despite all this, they need the Whitecloaks to protect them from the Trollocs.

“You call this being protected, roofmistress?” Bain said. “If you ask the lion to protect you from wolves, you have only chosen to end in one belly instead of another.”

“Can you not protect yourselves?” Chiad added. “I have seen Perrin fight, and Mat Cauthon, and Rand al’Thor. They are the same blood as you.”

Bran says they are only farmers, even though Lord Luc talks about organizing men to fight the Trollocs. Perrin asks who Lord Luc is, and Marin replies he is a Hunter of the Horn and a fine gentleman. Perrin tells them Faile is a Hunter too, and asks her if she knows this Lord Luc.

“I have had enough,” she announced. Perrin frowned as she stood and came around the table to him. Seizing his head, she pulled his face into her midriff. “Your mother is dead,” she said quietly. “Your father is dead. Your sisters are dead, and your brother. Your family is dead, and you cannot change it. Certainly not by dying yourself. Let yourself grieve. Don’t hold it inside where it can fester.”

Perrin realizes then he is sobbing, and tells her he couldn’t get here any faster. She strokes his hair, murmuring soothing things, and he continues to weep.

My father died very suddenly in 2007, and the thing that I remember most, after the first terrible hours immediately following receiving the news, was how bizarrely the reality of my father’s death contrasted to all the mundanity that surrounded it; beside the huge looming fact that my father was gone, none of it seemed like reality at all. Getting on a plane to go home, and making decisions about funeral arrangements, and talking to the lawyer about the estate, and etc etc; it was real, but it wasn’t. It was very like watching myself on TV, or something; everything had this tinny, echo-y, once-removed quality to it. I felt like I was on autopilot. I would catch myself doing things, like deciding what to wear to the funeral, and think, why I am deciding what to wear? My father is dead. Why am I putting gas in the car? My father is dead. Why am I eating this meal? My father is dead.

And yet, you do have to eat, and dress, and put gas in the car, and so you do, and there is an equally strange kind of numbing comfort in turning away from the awful repetitive clanging realization of your loved one’s sudden lack of existence in the world, to problems that by comparison are at least something you can encompass. It’s very rarely in the real world that you smack into something that abruptly informs you of just how narrow your range of comprehension really is. Perrin’s behavior here, therefore, is utterly believable, and heart-wrenching to read – even the first time I read it, when I had nothing personal to compare it to.

Having gone through losing a parent, I can’t even imagine what it would be like to be told that you had just lost not one loved one, but your entire family at one stroke. In a weird way, it’s almost kind of fortunate for Perrin that he has such immediate dire circumstances to distract him from the horrible crushing reality of that loss. I agree completely with Faile making him cry it out, because that first initial rush of grief is imperative (and incidentally did a great deal to improve my overall opinion of her on first reading), but the larger, long-term burden of loss that follows is easier, frankly, if you have something to occupy your mind. I have a theory that this is about 70% of the reasoning behind elaborate funereal customs in the first place. Perrin’s not going to get those, so I guess he’ll have to settle for fighting Trollocs.

Chapter 30: Beyond the Oak

What Happens
Perrin cries for a long time while memories of his family flash through his mind. When he finally looks up he sees that he and Faile are alone in the room. Faile takes his hands and sits down, and he thinks of how beautiful she is and that he would have to make it up to her how he had treated her these past few days. She asks if he’s given up this notion of surrendering to the Whitecloaks, and Perrin agrees it would seem to do little good, now. He tells her he has to get Mat’s mother and sisters and the Luhhans away from the Whitecloaks, and thinks privately that he also intends to do something about the Trollocs. She asks if there are any more fool notions about sending her away, either, and he says no. Faile says with them, Loial, the Aiel, and Tam and Abell if they can find them, that makes eight, and maybe this Lord Luc can help too. She suggests visiting his family’s farm, but Perrin is not ready for that yet. Bran comes back in, and tells Perrin with bemusement that there’s an Ogier sitting in his kitchen. He adds that Marin might have been able to pretend the Aiel were no big deal, but she nearly fainted on seeing Loial. Perrin asks if Bran knows where he can find Masters al’Thor and Cauthon, and Bran says they move around a lot, so he’s not sure. He warns Perrin that Marin will not give up trying to make him go. They go into the kitchen, where Marin is trying to pretend the Aiel and Ogier are normal guests, not very successfully.

His tufted ears twitched nervously whenever she looked at him, and she gave a little jump every time they did, then shook her head, the thick graying braid swaying vigorously. Given a few hours, they might send each other to bed with the shakes.

Loial tells Perrin he was grieved to hear about his family, and offers to sing to the apple trees before they leave. Perrin thanks him, but says it will have to wait; he has things to do before he goes. Ignoring Marin’s stare, he explains that he intends to rescue the Whitecloaks’ hostages, and tells the Aiel and Loial that this is not their fight, and he will understand if they do not want to join him. Loial, of course, immediately says he will help, and Gaul adds that he said he would go with Perrin, and did not mean “until it got hard”. Bain and Chiad look at Faile, and when she nods, add their decisions to stay as well. Marin tells them they are all stubborn and foolish, and if they’re staying she supposes she’ll have to show them where to hide. Bran looks surprised at her capitulation, and suggests the old sickhouse; Marin looks at him sharply, and says that will do, and quickly dissuaudes Bran from taking them there himself. They arrange to split into groups and meet at a lightning-struck oak near the sickhouse, but when Perrin, Loial and Faile go out with Marin they run straight into Cenn Buie. Cenn sees Loial and stammers “Trolloc!”, and Marin tells him not to be a fool, Loial is an Ogier, and tries to send him on his way. Then Cenn recognizes Perrin and tells him the Whitecloaks will “settle him”, and Marin orders him sharply to keep his mouth shut, and shames him for taking up with Whitecloak sympathies; she tells him this is Women’s Circle business, and she will send Daise Congar over to settle him, if his wife doesn’t first. Cenn grudgingly agrees to keep quiet and slinks off. Faile congratulates Marin on her handling of Cenn, but Marin doesn’t seem so certain of it, and they move on. They mostly avoid notice, though some people stare at Loial, but Perrin hopes they are far enough off that the size difference is not obvious. They meet the Aiel at the oak and head toward the sickhouse in the woods. Suddenly Perrin catches the scent of men, and hears a faint rustle. The Aiel tense, and Perrin reaches for his bow, but Marin pleads with everyone to be calm; two Warders appear in front of them with drawn bows, and Perrin demands of Marin why she and Bran didn’t tell him there were Aes Sedai here. Marin replies that Bran does not know about them, and asks the Warders, Tomas and Ihvon, to put away their weapons.

“An Ogier,” the gray haired man said, “Aiel, a yellow-eyed man—the one the Whitecloaks seek, of course—and a fierce young woman with a knife.” Perrin glanced at Faile; she held a blade ready to throw. He agreed with her this time.

The older Warder, Tomas, says they shall see, and sends the younger, Ihvon, back through the trees. Marin explains that the Women’s Circle agreed not to tell anyone about the Aes Sedai, who were at Watch Hill when the Whitecloaks came, and passed on from the Women’s Circle there to hide in Emond’s Field. Tomas wants to know why she decided to ignore that promise, and she tells him for good and sufficient reasons, and continues to Perrin that she didn’t think he would object, seeing as he left the Two Rivers with an Aes Sedai. Perrin tells her there are Aes Sedai, and then there are Aes Sedai, but thinks to himself that at least whoever these were, they couldn’t be Reds, not with Warders. He tells Faile that it will be all right, and hopes very much that he is right.

One thing I kind of wish we had gotten to see was the whole Two Rivers thing from the Aiel’s point of view. I’ve always been a sucker for seeing familiar characters/situations from an outside point of view, and I think that seeing the Two Rivers from Gaul or Bain or Chiad’s POV would have been very interesting.

Especially Bain or Chiad, who as characters I find a bit more opaque than Gaul. Gaul’s reasons for being there are really perfectly straightforward – he has a blood debt to Perrin. Bain and Chiad, however, are rather odd, in that their only stated reasons for being along on this escapade is that they are curious to see what happens between Perrin and Faile. Which, okay, but as reasons go for haring off into strange lands and putting yourself in mortal peril for total strangers, that’s a little thin, even for Aiel. I’ve always supposed there was more to it than that, and actually, given what ends up happening between Gaul and Bain (or is it Chiad? I forget), maybe that had to do with it as well, though I seem to recall that the way events fell out in Tear, neither of the Maidens could have known in advance that Gaul had decided to go with Perrin until they all met up in the stables, so the Gaul/Bain/Chiad thing could only have developed later. I could be wrong about that, though.

At any rate, we only get hints throughout this storyline of what the Aiel think of it all, and while I understand that for story contraint reasons it would not be feasible to include the Aiel’s point of view, I still think it would have been cool to have it. Oh well.

I also want to take this opportunity to send a shout out to my Loial, who continues as adorable and huggable as ever. I really feel for him, having to put up with this Perrin/Faile bullshit and yet maintaining his adorableness while he’s at it. Loial is one of those characters that I feel kind of falls by the wayside to a degree precisely because he is so easygoing and dependable, and is treated as basically an errand boy by the other main cast. I really hope he does get to write his history and get some recognition, as otherwise I think his loyalty has gotten rather poor return overall.

You may have noticed that I have not really discussed the Perrin/Faile thing in any depth in this post, and I’m not going to. Mostly because their relationship issues are sort of on the back burner for these chapters anyway, but also partially because I’m still working out how I feel about this whole Thing, after my rather visceral reaction last post and the commentary that followed it. I’ll come back to it once I feel up to handling it it comes to the forefront in the narrative again.

Chapter 31: Assurances

What Happens
Ihvon returns and tells Marin she may go on, and he and Tomas disappear into the brush without a sound. Gaul comments they are very good, and though Chiad scoffs at him, she seems wary as well. They follow Marin to the sickhouse, where Perrin finds that one of the Aes Sedai is Verin Mathwin, whose sharp glance at him belies her usual absentminded demeanor, and the other is Alanna Mosvani, a Green whom Perrin had seen in Fal Dara but never met. He remembers something Egwene had said, about some of the Aes Sedai showing too much interest in Rand, and that Alanna had been one of the ones she’d mentioned; Perrin decides to keep Egwene’s suspicions in mind. Marin apprehensively starts to justify her reasons for bringing Perrin here, that the Aes Sedai had been asking about him and the other two boys, but Verin assures her that she did the right thing, and greets Loial with pleasure, looking forward to talking books with him, which makes Loial smile. Alanna asks if the other two boys are with him, and Perrin demands to know what they are doing here, to both Marin and Faile’s shock. Marin tries to dress him down, but Verin tells her they are old friends and not to worry about it. Marin soon takes her leave, and Verin offers Perrin her sympathies over his family; Perrin replies that she still hasn’t answered his question. Verin explains calmly that she and Alanna were in the area looking for girls who can channel, after hearing of Moiraine’s finds in the Two Rivers, briefly digressing into a discussion about Sheriam’s “culling” theory:

“The proof of it, she says, is how very few men we do find. Why, even a hundred years ago the records say there were two or three a year, and five hundred years—”

Alanna harrumphed. “What else can we do, Verin? Let them go insane? Follow the Whites’ mad plan?”

“I think not,” Verin replied calmly. “Even if we could find women willing to bear children by gentled men, there is no guarantee the children would be able to channel, or would be girls. I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused.”

“She would not be,” Alanna laughed. The sudden flash of delight, breaking her fiery, dark-eyed stare, was startling. “I wish I could have seen her face.”

Verin agrees it was interesting, and tells Perrin to calm himself, she is getting to his question. Alanna continues that in less than a week in Watch Hill, they had found four girls who could be taught, and one more who she thinks has the ability inborn, though she’s too young to be certain yet. Verin adds that Taren Ferry was a disappointment, though; too much exchange of bloodlines with the outside, she supposes. Perrin wants to know why they are sitting in here while Whitecloaks and Trollocs are running all over, instead of doing something; Loial and Faile are both appalled, and Faile tries to apologize to the Aes Sedai, saying that Moiraine spoiled him with her “easy manner”.

“An easy manner?” Verin said, blinking. “Moiraine? I never noticed.”

Angrily, Alanna tells Perrin he does not understand the strictures they labor under due to the Three Oaths, and describes how her second Warder Owein was killed by Whitecloaks, and because she had not been there, she could do nothing; the Whitecloaks may be vile, but they are not Darkfriends, and so are safe from the Power except in self-defense. Verin adds that they have killed a number of Trollocs, but Fades can sense channeling, and there would not be much they could do except run if a hundred Trollocs came down on them. Perrin realizes he’d been assuming they could do something similar to what Rand did in the Stone, but thinks it’s likely that Rand is at least twice as strong as either Verin or Alanna. Alanna observes that he is wounded, and takes his head in her hands, checking him. Bain and Loial explain about the Ways and the Trollocs, and how Loial had locked the Waygate. Alanna comments that she does not understand why the Amyrlin had let Perrin and his companions just go their own way; she would have tied a string to them, even bonded them.

He tried to pull back, but she tightened her grip and smiled. “I am not so lost to custom yet as to bond a man against his will. Not quite yet.” He was not sure how far from it she was; the smile did not reach her eyes.

Alanna Heals him, and then sees to the Aiel. Faile strokes the now-scar on his cheek, and murmurs about a “beauty mark”; Perrin frowns, thinking she is making fun of him. Then Tam al’Thor and Abell Cauthon enter, carrying a brace of rabbits; they stare in shock at Loial, though Tam seems to recognize the Aiel. Then he sees Perrin and exclaims in surprise, asking if Rand is with him; Abell adds a query about Mat, and Perrin tells them their sons are both in Tear, and doing well. He ignores Verin’s glance at the mention of Tear, and tells the men that Mat spends his time dicing and kissing girls, and the last time he saw Rand, he was wearing a fancy coat and had a pretty girl on his arm. Abell chuckles that that sounds like Mat, but Tam asks whether Moiraine had been right the night she took them away, that the Trollocs were after them. Verin gives Perrin a warning look, but he can’t bring himself to tell Tam the truth about Rand in any case, and merely replies that they would have to ask Moiraine. Then he asks to speak to the two of them outside; Faile makes to come with them, but Perrin shakes his head at her, and is amazed when she sits back down, wondering if she’s ill. Outside, Tam and Abell twit Perrin gently about Faile, and Tam gives him advice on how to handle a “spirited” woman, which Perrin thinks sounds virtually identical to the advice Marin gave Faile on handling men. Abell tells how they stumbled on the Aes Sedai accidentally, and thinks the only reason the Warders didn’t kill them was the Aes Sedai found out who their sons were. He adds that Alanna let slip that they were ta’veren, and Perrin says that he hasn’t seen any sign of it in himself or Mat. Tam gives him a look when he doesn’t mention Rand, and Perrin thinks he has to learn how to lie better. They discuss Tam and Abell’s futile trip to Tar Valon, and Perrin avoids giving direct answers to anything. Then a raven alights on a nearby tree, and before Perrin can loose a shaft, Tam and Abell have shot it down; Tam’s arrow got it in the head, and Perrin thinks he hadn’t lied when he’d told Faile they were better than he at the bow. Abell mentions that though everyone has started killing ravens, someone has gone a little crazy with it, and left corpses of all kinds of animals about, not even skinned but just left to rot, and Perrin thinks it has to be Slayer, which means he’s here in the real world as well as in the dream. They move on to discussing how best to rescue the Cauthons and Luhhans, and where to hide them once they were out; Perrin is disgusted to hear that Tam and Abell don’t think many will shelter them for fear of the Whitecloaks, saying he’d thought better of Two Rivers folk than that. Abell defends them, saying they just feel caught between two millstones, and Perrin replies they should do something about it then.

“A Warder once told me Trollocs call the Aiel Waste ‘the Dying Ground.’ I mean to make them give that name to the Two Rivers.”

“Perrin,” Tam began, then stopped, looking troubled.

Perrin knew his eyes caught the light, there in the shadows under the oak. His face felt carved from rock.

Tam sighed. “First we’ll see about Natti and the others. Then we can decide what to do about the Trollocs. ”

“Don’t let it eat you inside, boy,” Abell said softly. “Hate can grow till it burns everything else out of you.”

Perrin says he just means to do what needs doing, and runs a thumb along the edge of his axe.

Dain Bornhald returns to Watch Hill, leading what’s left of his patrol, and thinks this is the third time patrols Dain led have been attacked, even though the Trollocs have tried to avoid the others. He notes that the camp of Tinkers outside the town look like they’re getting ready to move, and sends Farran to tell them that if they leave, they are only allowed to go south. Dain thinks the people in this area must be Light-forsaken; most villages were eager enough to use Whitecloaks to get rid of their undesirables, but other than at Taren Ferry, the people here just bow to his face and ignore him once he’s gone. Plus he knows they are hiding an Aes Sedai somewhere. But even so, Dain is coming to realize that the only Darkfriend he really wants is Perrin Aybara, for leading his father to his death. He decides that if neither of the Luhhans talks soon, he’d let Byar have a go at the blacksmith. Byar meets Dain at his tent and reports that Ordeith is back, and his patrol was attacked; the only Children who had died were Joelin and Gomanes. Dain angrily orders Byar to tell Ordeith to come to his tent, and wonders if Ordeith really thinks he is stupid enough not to have noticed that the only Whitecloaks who die on Ordeith’s patrols are the ones Dain sends along with Ordeith to keep an eye on him. He wonders again why the Lord Captain Commander had sent him here with a madman in tow, and then the madman in question enters the tent. Ordeith starts to offer condolences for the death of Joelin and Gomanes until Dain cuts him off by backhanding him across the face. Ordeith threatens to tell on him to Pedron Niall, and Dain points out this is only effective if Ordeith lives to tell about it. Ordeith crouches and snarls at him at first, but then suddenly takes on a grand tone and begins reassuring Dain that bringing Rand al’Thor, Mat Cauthon and Perrin Aybara back to the Two Rivers will give Dain the three worst Darkfriends that ever walked.

“Scourge them.” There was a hint of madness in that grand voice, and sweat on Ordeith’s brow. “Flay them, and the three will come.”

Dain tells him he covered over what Ordeith did at the Aybara farm, but he will not condone the murder of Children. Ordeith reminds him about the Gray Men that had walked right into the Whitecloak camp, and Ordeith had killed, calling it proof that what he does is right, if the Shadow is trying so hard to stop him. He promises Dain Perrin Aybara if left alone, and Dain hesitates and tells him to get out, but doesn’t say anything else. When Ordeith leaves Dain starts hunting for brandy.

Ordeith slinks through the Whitecloak camp, thinking that Dain might have to be done away with if he becomes any more troublesome. He can feel one of the “hated ones” out there nearby; he can’t tell which one it is, but is sure he would have known if it was al’Thor, who is the only really important one. Ordeith shivers with his desire to get revenge on al’Thor for what was taken from him. Everything had been going fine until this “new one” appeared with his Gray Men, but he cackles to himself that nothing can kill him. He returns to his own section of the camp.

Flies buzzed about his own tents, and sullen, suspicious eyes flinched away from his. The white cloaks were soiled here. But the swords were sharp, and obedience instant and unquestioning. Bornhald thought these men were still his. Pedron Niall believed it, too, believed Ordeith his tame creature. Fools.

He goes into his tent and examines his prisoner, noting that it had almost broken free. He asks if it is ready to accept his proposal, or whether he should prove that he knows how to hurt one of its kind for an eternity. The Fade finally answers that it accepts, and for Ordeith to release him.

Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. “First, the matter of... shall we say, agreements and accord?” As he talked, the Myrddraal began to sweat.

Oh, Alanna. How much I am going to hate on you soon. But nice foreshadowing of what’s going to happen with her and Rand, bah humbug. Eh, we’ll get to that later.

The fun thing about Verin and Alanna’s little “culling” digression is that you can completely imagine how that whole debate went in the Tower, and be amused by it. You can also see the (slightly skewed) parallels Jordan is drawing here between the Aes Sedai/White Tower and the Roman Catholic clergy/Vatican; while the Aes Sedai are not committed to celibacy per se, they definitely appear to be committed to it in a “results” sense of the notion. By which I mean, of course, children.

Other than Elayne, who is a rather special case, I cannot recall a single Aes Sedai we see or hear about who has had children while being Aes Sedai; the closest I can recall off the top of my head are Setalle Anan, who did not have children until after she was stilled/burnt out and left the Tower, and the novice Min tells Siuan about, who apparently is destined to leave the Tower first as well.

While there is of course nothing wrong with the decision not to have children as an individual, the fact that it appears to apply universally to Aes Sedai is congruent with the larger parallel (and criticism) Jordan is drawing between the White Tower and the whole “ivory tower” (wink, nudge) mentality of organizations like it, who withdraw from the fabric of ordinary society in order to devote themselves to a higher good, but who in the process (in many people’s opinion, apparently including Jordan) lose touch with the very society they purport to be aiding, which is clearly reflected in the overall distrust/unfamiliarity of Randland with Aes Sedai. This is part and parcel of Jordan’s overarching theme of balance between the sexes; both the major single-gendered organizations we see in Randland (the White Tower and the Whitecloaks) are severely dysfunctional in many ways, and the obvious implication is that this is (at least in part) because they decline to immerse themselves in “real life”, so to speak, and specifically with members of the opposite sex in more than superficial ways.

Yes, I’m aware that calling the Warder bond a “superficial” relationship is somewhat eyebrow-raising, but even accounting for those Aes Sedai who are sexually involved with their Warders (which, Myrelle and general lascivious rumors about Greens aside, seems to be surprisingly few of them), the relationship is still more of a professional/working one than anything else. In other words, it’s not a “relationship” in the romantic/domestic sense.

Relationships/marriage and children are not the only components of “real life”, of course, but I don’t think anyone would disagree that they are a very large part of it. The even further dysfunctionality of the Reds within the Tower is reflected similarly in that not only are they not allowed Warders, they don’t even allow members to have friends outside the Ajah, taking this isolationism to an extreme.

Re: Whitecloaks, I continue to be appalled at the notion of an autonomous military body that answers to nobody but its own (messed-up) creedo of ethics. The idea that these guys can just ride around wherever they want and take charge of practically anyplace that doesn’t have the wherewithal to tell them to get lost is deeply offensive to me. In this way the Children are also a parallel to the Christian church of yore, as I (and many others) have already noted their similarity to the Knights Templar. It’s kind of creepy that the White Tower and the Children of the Light have so many things in common while being such deadly enemies.

Fain, blah. I can’t even get interested that he has a pet Fade. Though I think I missed the first time through that Slayer is actually there in the Two Rivers specifically to kill him; I think I thought the first time that they were just jockeying for position, much the way the Forsaken play against each other for status/power within their own hierarchy. Oops.

As a last note on this chapter, I remain unsure what to think of the importance placed here on the notion of blood characteristics, as given in Verin’s statement that the Taren Ferry folk were a “disappointment” in the channeling arena because of their, hm, contamination by outside bloodlines – not in the idea that Verin and others of Randland would believe in this, because this is a very common belief in feudal societies, but more the implicit indication in the story that she is right. Especially since Egwene’s later success in dredging up a thousand novices as the Rebel Aes Sedai migrate across the country shows the whole “culling” theory to be flawed, to say the least.

That sounds somewhat contradictory, that I am saying the story implies Verin is right when it later proves her wrong, but this notion of “blood will out” shows up in subtler ways as well. The belief that Rand was keeping ahead of Moiraine et al chasing him in TDR because he “has the blood of long walkers and strong runners in him”, for instance, or the repeated theme of the Two Riversians being secretly badass because of their Manetheren antecedents, and so forth. I’m... not exactly arguing against this, because first of all it’s hardly uncommon in the fantasy genre, and secondly I said myself earlier that I found it cool (and I do), but it does raise a few niggling “nature vs. nurture” questions which are somewhat troubling in their larger implications.

And I is done. Have a lovely week, peoples, and I will be back next week with vim and vigor and maybe some spicy fun JordanCon extras for all y’all. Cheers!

Blake Engholm
1. UncrownedKing
What am I going to do on Wednesday and Friday?? Work?? Blood and bloody buttered onions!!

Loved the last two posts Leigh, this one continues to be great.
Richard Fife
2. R.Fife
So... would the strongest channelers be inbred? It kinda seems that for blood to be "old" it has to be similar across a region, and what better family tree for such a thing than one without branches? I'm with ya leigh, its a cool idea, but the grander scope of what's being said is kind of, um, odd when you "strip away concepts".. by the Light, did I really just quote Odigity's video?

Anywho, see you at JordanCon, I'll actually be gophering one of your panels.
3. fss
You sure you don't want bring the thing from the last post?


Anyway, I've been thinking about the cloistered White Tower for a while now, and it just don't make sense.

First off; the Yellow Ajah. They dedicate themselves to healing...excuse me...Healing, so why the !@%^ don't have brnaches throughout Randland? You know, the Two Rivers Yellow Ajah Health Clinic? Where they could Heal who needs Healing, and, oh by the way, check every girl who comes in for inate channeling ability. Makes too much sense? I know, much more fun to play politics in the White Tower.

And the Greens. Why the @%^& aren't they were they're supposed to be; in the borderland, fighting the Blight and what-not?

And the White. Well, who knows what they would do. Teach at Randland Universities or something along with the Browns. Stoopid Ajahs anyway.

Reds. Hey, at least they're out in the world doing something. Can't stand most of the ones we've seen (except Pevara and what's her name, new Keeper), but at least they have (I know, had) an important function. If they got too into it because they hate men; at least they loved their job.

Blues, I still don't know if the Ajah as a whole got into Causes, or individual sisters did (I used to think the latter until I read New Spring: The Novel).

Gray, should be at Tower unless they're out advising or Treaty verification.

Anyway, it's easy to see why the Tower dwindled despite any real drop-off in channeling ability. It's their own @$%&ed fault.
4. Lsana
It's a good point about the Aes Sedai. In my mind, though, Aes Sedai not having children is only a symptom of how isolated they are not just from that side of life, but from pretty much every side of life. While the AOL folks had their flaws, I've got to think that there system where we had channelers who were psychologists and lawyers who were occasionally called on to do some magic was better than the Third Age solutions where channelers all hang out together and do channeler things while more or less ignoring everyone else unless they want something from the mere mortals.

It's interesting, though, that for all our heroines, it is assumed that they will marry. Oh, we get a few comments about how "Aes Sedai rarely ever marry," but I don't think any of the supergirls ever think in their PoVs that they are likely to stay single.
Blake Engholm
5. UncrownedKing
Chp 29 is probably one of the most gut/heart-wrenching pieces of literature I've read, or at least it seems to effect me more than most others. If you don't feel for Perrin here, almost cry and wail with him, then you don't have a pulse. One of my favorite chapters in the book and series because of how human RJ makes the characters. Vivid and real.

31 - enter Verin...again GAH!
and Alanna? holy Jeebus! She pulls the biggest bone-head move of the century coming up in the next book. I still yell at her, outloud, every-single-time I read it.

Whitecloaks still suck and are still pompous a$$holes.
Galen Brinn
6. GatheringStorm
Yay, for the post!

Boo! For no more for over a week (Post from the road! Post from the road!).

At least, no one got spanked here and so that argument won't ensue...

I felt really bad for Perrin in this part. Still do. It's almost like I can feel the bad news as if it were my own. FAIL (TM) actually is likeable in Chapter 29 (almost the only place she's tolerable, much less anything higher on the scale).

Wonder why Perrin didn't even mention that the Stone of Tear had fallen. He could have at least mentioned that as warning of events to come. I know he didn't want to tell Tam straight out that Rand is the DR, but it's kind of piss-poor to leave it at "he's walking around in fine coats with a Lady on his arm".

Verin = infodump, but I like her anyway. Alana...meh. Almost to some Two Rivers badassery...but first, this commercial interruption message brought to you by the Whitecloaks...
7. laframboise
I think it would be difficult, to bear children who perhaps did not inherit the ability to channel, and the longevity that goes along with it, only to outlive them. On a purely biological note - wonder for how long an interval a 400 year old woman is of 'childbearing age'?
8. mike24318324739284
Thanks again Leigh.

I agree with Uncrowned, I have no clue what I'll do wednesday and friday and monday?
9. Samadai
Alanna may do that stupid thing, but remember in WH it makes Rand realize that he is not even using those AS he can trust because of his fear of being used.
Marie Adomako
10. MSedai
I always wondered about all of the women that keep popping up as the series progresses that have the spark, not just the ability to learn to channel. I mean, we never get a point of view about tons of women dying in bizarre ways because they can't teach themselves to channel, but all of a sudden there is a bumper crop of them... Is the Pattern spinning them out for TG?

And I never noticed Alanna until she bonded Rand, and then she still fades away. I kind of feel bad for her in a way, because she must be an emotional maelstrom- she can't control her emotions like all the other AS we've seen, and she does a crazy thing like bonding the Dragon Reborn, and she still can't get her way and it backfires, and she is beholden to him. I never saw her as "bad" so much as reckless and stupid.

And yeah, I think I posted about Aiel humor a couple of reads back in that I thought Gaul had weird motives for tagging along, and had to be reminded of the blood debt. I guess Bain and Chiad are seriously whacked... or is it Perrin being ta'veren through FAIL?

laframboise@8: good point. I never thought of the possibility of outliving your children. That is never easy.

(And praise the Light for a new thread. The last one was too warm...)
Galen Brinn
11. GatheringStorm
laframboise @ 7,

Say 400 = 75. "The Change" averaging at say...50. So, 400/3 = 133. 133 * 2 = 266, which would approximately be 50 for "mere mortals". Give or take.
Blake Engholm
12. UncrownedKing
@ 9 True dat, True dat. Just finished WH yesterday. Pretty good ending in that one too :)
Andrew Lovsness
13. drewlovs
I had forgotten about how much i really liked this part of the Perrin story arc. It seems the whole "dragonsworn" crap along with the rebel Aiel has scrubbed all the good things I thought about Perrin away. Sad that.

It is almost exciting, knowing what is to come, even with the fact that I know there is absolutely NO resolution to the enemies that did all the damage to the two rivers folk. All the whitecloak leaders get away to irritate us another day, and of course, Gollum... err, I mean Fain... couldn't die this early on, could he?
14. laframboise
@11 - with that long a fertility period, you wouldn't need many AS to volunteer to go into production!
15. Samadai
It sure beat the endings of CoS an PoD.
16. Samadai

it's clean, it's clean from Narishma gets me every time
17. The Man In The Black Cape
Ye gods... Only five comments?

Seems to me the whole thing with Verin about bloodlines and interbreeding is hovering somewhere on the wrong side of the pc fence, but seeing as she's right about the culling thing and eventually turns out to be slightly less than correct anyway, I think I'll let it slide.

Reminds me. Couple of articles ago Leigh and some other people came up with slightly... more contextualised versions of Old Tongue terminology, tel'aran'rhiod being "infodump" and so on. Well, here are some more suggestions. Yes, I should have posted them earlier, but, hey .

ter'angreal = important plot device, or, possibly, deus ex machina
angreal = gun
sa'angreal = big gun
choeden kal = really big gun
Blake Engholm
18. UncrownedKing
@ 17

Im petitioning to get the Choedan Kal's name changed to BFG because there has never been a greater need to use the term then here.
Richard Fife
19. R.Fife
Gathering: They are in the Two Rivers, and typically thinking there (and Perrin is probably still part of it) is that Tarmon Gaidon will be over before duopotamians knew it started. Perrin probably thinks that it really is better to have Tam living in a pleasant fiction, at least a little longer.

To Aes Sedai lacking procreation: really don't have anything to add. I agree that it is kind of silly to think that Aes Sedai are all cooped up together, but at the same time, ~1/3 of Aes Sedai are outside of the Tower at the time of the coup d'etat, so that's a good 300+ Aes Sedai out there. I'd imagine they come and go a fair amount too, but after the bungling of the past 3k years, they probably just feel safer in general behind the Shining Walls. Remember, Tar Valon used to be a (small) nation, even when the entire land was claimed by the "Ten Nations" and, I'd imagine Aes Sedai were more prevalent through society pre-trolloc wars. Then, you had Hawkwing who had every last Aes Sedai crammed into the tower for a, what, 20 year seige? And he also ran a massive anti-Aes Sedai smear campaign during that time too, one that has remained, seeing as Hawkwing is still lovingly remembered and even Duopotamians fear them for monsters (at least at the start of EotW).

So, even the types that have every reason to be outside, like yellows, might just say "if you're sick, come here." Never mind how silly that seems since Tar Valon is like weeks of land-travel from the closest civilization? The Greens, though, yeah, seems really silly for them to be cooped up in the tower. Perhaps they make up a larger portion of 300ish AS living outside the tower?

So much for me not having much to say...
Josh Davis
20. YoSoyElJosh
Well, regarding AS reproduction, it's likely that their "monthly" cycle takes many months. Women are born with a finite number of eggs (as opposed to men who generate sperm even before and long after they can really use them).

So assuming that their slow aging is carried across all of their bodies' faculties, it's likely that there's still only a small opening window for pregnancy, before the egg dies unfertilized in the womb, unless AS eggs have extraordinary out-of-the-carton shelf lives as well.

I suppose that's possible.

Of course, the slowing doesn't occur until somewhere between the ages of 20 and 25, and who knows what sort of issue the Oath Rod has on reproduction.
Galen Brinn
21. GatheringStorm
LMAO, Uncrowned @ 18. BFG is quite appropriate!
Richard Fife
22. R.Fife
OK, I wasn't going to touch the idea of extended life cycles for AS... but I feel compelled to make a "man joke" here. I am prepared to face the firing squad:

If a man should not trust any animal that bleeds for five days and doesn't die, then AS probably /really/ should not be trusted.

There, I said it. *puts on blindfold and puffs his cigerette*
23. Randalator
Chapter 29 is without a doubt the most realistic and thus most haunting depiction of loss and grief I have ever read.

In 1997 like Leigh I lost my father very suddenly and I, too, experienced this feeling of unreality. Functioning but not living, experiencing everything crystal clear and fogged at the same time, this clash of necessities and trivialities. And now, 12 years later, this scene still makes me choke up every time I read it.
24. Tony Zbaraschuk
Perrin's crushing the winecup is a moment that has stayed with me, partly for the impact of the news and partly for Jordan's descriptive technique.

I agree that an Aiel viewpoint on the Two Rivers would be worth having. We get some Aviendha POV chapters later in the series, but it's not quite the same thing.
Josh Davis
25. YoSoyElJosh
Oh, and regarding why the Aes Sedai don't have hospitals and schools and barracks all over the land:

In the Path of Daggers, it's explained that for the Aes Sedai to remain powerful and influential, they must appear to be above the world, and that goes for every single Aes Sedai. If common people were given the chance to know and befriend them, their thinking (whether right or wrong) is that when they do need some leverage, they won't have it.

The Aes Sedai position themselves so that even the lowest among the Sisters would still appear higher than any king or queen.

@22 R.Fife.

I will not be surprised if you are made to bleed for five days. My condolences to your family. =(
Blake Engholm
26. UncrownedKing
@ 20

Ima put my money on the AS having a large amount of control over their bodies. Hell they seem to think they have control over everything else, I don't think they'd let a little monthly visit from Aunt Flo to slow them down in the least. I veiw AS as having a Bene Gesserit like ability to control their bodies (Paul's mother had the ability to give Duke Leto a son and not a daughter)

I would guess that the AS can control when to release an egg.

Just my crackpot theory.


O no he didn't!! He did not go there! Light bless your soul.
27. HeWhoComesWithTheNoon
The Shadow Rising is like a great episode of Seinfeld. You know the WOT/Seinfeld had a bunch of awesome moments in it, but when you realizes how many are packed into one, you realize that you forgot how awesome that single one was. Finding all this asskickery in TSR is like realizing that Man-Hands is the same episode as Bizarro Jerry and the one where Kramer gets the office job with no qualifications. It's wonderful!
28. bookworm
I am somewhat surprised I have to address Bain, Chiad and Gaul.

Right, everyone is up on the honor debt of Gaul to Perrin. Gaul is very interested in Bain, but men don't make the move in Aiel society. Gaul is wary of Chiad because their clans have a feud, so he isn't romantically inclined.

Bain is bonded first-sister to Chiad, which means (among other things) that she wouldn't romantically entangle herself without (at least) getting Chiad's approval. I believe that Bain recognizes Chiad's interest, and would not "step on her toes" with Gaul. This is why Bain and Chiad tag along with Faile. Chiad wants Gaul to get to know her better.

Chiad is quite taken by Gaul! Who stays (and demands to do so) with a wounded Gaul in Emond's Field after the battle with Isam's Trollocs? This is what you seem to be missing.

But, her honor won't allow her to make overtures to a man who seems completely uninterested. Voilá! Romantic triangle, Aiel style. And still going on through KoD, though offhand I forget who Gaul claims he's going after at the end of the battle with the Shaido.

Oh, and goody ;(

Another round of the Biologist's Round Table. It's OK. My area of interest would likely bore most of you to tears.

Oh, and a Lightning Bolt for R.Fife.
Dan Sparks
29. RedHanded
On why the Aes Sedai stay cooped up/ distance themselves from society.....

I think about it like how generally speaking we have a bipartisan government. i.e. Republicans/Democrats. Now everyone wants their party in power and so much stay close to issues in Washington (Tar Valon). Kind of like how people always say it's WHO you know not what you know. (I disagree with this at least as it applies to my own life) Anywho you have to be out there to get the connections you need to pass the bullshit that you want to get passed. Now imagine this split into 7 different factions. You have 7 different groups of people who want certain things accomplished, different goals and definitely see certain aspects of life as more important almost to the exclusion of many others. Now how are you going to get into power if all you are doing is staying out of Washington/Tar Valon and actually participating in the things you want accomplished? Well F that you have to stick around so you can jockey for power and one up someone else, this way you can get into power and make everyone else do what you want. Aes Sedai see themselves as better than everyone else in the world.."we are Aes Sedai do as we say cuz we said so." They don't need to go out to get public acceptance because our opinions don't matter. It's Women's Circle..I mean Aes Sedai business.

Very basic I know, but that's in general how I see the Aes Sedai distance from society deal. They have to be around each other to jockey for power so they can have the White Tower accomplish the things their certain group wants accomplished.

30. Rikka
I don't think AS are quite BGs when it comes to body control. Some of the Wise Ones are channelers and they have children and nothing seems very abnormal about Elayne's children's gestation etc. Unless you want to suggest that the Oath Rod has magical powers overs wombs as well as skin? I could be down for that but I'd need some facts set straight first.
32. Elyias's loin Cloth.
Been reading since the start though I have not posted much, the longer comentary is fantastic Leigh. Very well Done! I missed the first time through that Slayer was after Fain as well. I still am unsure why he is after him?
Blake Engholm
33. UncrownedKing

Slayer/Luc is the DO's assassin. He wants the Fain dead just as much as he wants the big three dead.
Blake Engholm
33. UncrownedKing

Slayer/Luc is the DO's assassin. He wants the Fain dead just as much as he wants the big three dead.
Richard Fife
34. R.Fife
@32:Fain is no longer an obedient darkfriend, and in particular the Shadow has some understanding how dangerous Fain could be to everyone, Shadow and Light alike. Slayer is sent to both punish a traitor and end a threat.
35. taraboner
Especially since Egwene’s later success in dredging up a thousand novices as the Rebel Aes Sedai migrate across the country shows the whole “culling” theory to be flawed, to say the least

you forgut abut the kin- they are marrying and having kids and sperding the abilty.


i was thinking the exact same thing - it seems thet the Yellows just sit in the tower and study medicin in theory!


It's interesting, though, that for all our heroines, it is assumed that they will marry.

would egwin really marry? seems strange for the amyrlin' altoug she changd so much alredy.
36. Grinwell
Very well said, Redhanded.
Doesn't Aes Sedai mean "servants of all"? So much for that.
Even those who are literally trying to save the world (Moiraine, Siuan) are so worried about the other Ajahs messing up their plans that they operate in complete secrecy. Even formerly tight friends Moiraine and Siuan fail to check in with each other as often as they should when dealing with The End of the World(tm).
Deborah Jones
37. NanaD
The Aes Sedai stay to themselves because they do not want the world to know they are not the all powerful beings that they are assumed to be.

We see three girls from a backwater town that are more powerful than any almost anyone in the Tower.
38. Tony Zbaraschuk
Alanna is interesting. She's one of the chosen representatives on the Shienar trip, and one of the two chosen to go harvest the Two Rivers; she shows up a couple of other times in fairly trustworthy positions (running the Acceptotron, for instance).

And so far we still don't know very much about her motivations, or her goals, or how high up in the Tower hierarchy she generally is.
Bill Siegel
39. ubxs113
Thanks again Leigh, great job as always.

For everyone else, I require your help to settle a dispute between a friend and I.

He says that having Leigh not post for a week is going to be awful and he doesn't know what he's going to do.

I contend that while it's too bad she can't post, a short wait at this point will actually increase our enjoyment of the re-read, especially with some of the stuff she'll get from the Con.

Basically it's instant vs delayed gratification. Your verdict is desired.
Josh Davis
40. YoSoyElJosh
@35 taraboner

From what I recall, the Kin are forbidden to marry or have kids, because it might let their secret out. They hide by moving around every couple of decades, so that when they come back to the same spot a century later, no one alive will recognize them. Having husbands and children would through a wrench in that cog.

Unless I'm just horribly mistaken, in which case, I apologize profusely.
41. wsean
Wow Leigh, I never made that connection between the Whitecloaks and White Tower before. Good stuff.

Also, I have to agree on Chapter 29. It's amazing how painful it is, especially given that we've barely heard a single word about any of Perrin's family members up until now. Great writing.

I also feel like that's the chapter that really redeems Faile for me. Deep down, under the misunderstandings and hurt feelings that trouble their relationship (how unrealistic, right? :P), they really do love each other. As annoying as Faile can get, I always remember this chapter and decide she's all right.
42. Ian Hurst
Re. Aes Sedai fertility.

A One Power preservation is not out of the question (in fact Jordan has probably answered this one before, though I can't recall it), but frankly it strikes me as the kind of skill that would, given all the other disincentives to child bearing in their hierarchy, become lost in the 3000 years since the Breaking.

Honestly, why bother teaching such a skill, when you know it won't ever be put to use, and when your organization scarcely has the resources to keep even all of the *practical* skills alive?
Luke M
43. lmelior
I will be back next week with vim...
Aha! A decisive blow all you emacs users out there, for Leigh is one of us!

Chris Maurer
44. grayfox
Leigh, sorry to hear about your father. I lost a sibling about 20 years ago and while the emotions are definitely not as raw now as what your's might still be, I can vividly remember similar thoughts/feelings. I also can vividly remember the "look" you get from everyone else around you.

This was the first time reading that scene since I got a degree in counseling and worked as a bereavement counselor at Hospice, and I definitely liked how Jordan handled it.
45. hoping to be of the blood
Culling theory
RJ addressed the culling theory in his blog.

"...while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark."

The Aes Sedai actively cull, the Aiel self cull (the male channelers run off to the blight), and iirc, the seanchan kill their male channelers. I don't know what the sea folk do.

So culling has resulted in a dramatic fall off in the number of channelers. The numbers are further worsened in Randland because the Aes Sedai do not actively search, unlike the seanchan and aiel.
Richard Fife
46. R.Fife
Of note, the people of Shara actually don't cull at all. Any male child of a channeler is breed before being killed (regardless of whether or not they show signs of channeling).
47. Tony Zbaraschuk
The other thing to note is that if 1% of the entire population is able to learn to channel, that's a HUGE LOT of people. If Caemlyn has a population of 10,000 people (sounds like more from the series, but let's say 10,000) then there are 50 boys and 50 girls in just that one city who can learn to channel.

Heck, the Aes Sedai could probably fill the Tower with novices just from the population of Tar Valon. Of course, then you run into the need for the psychological traits that they also want (and need), but I think the biggest problem is not the culling but that they just don't _look_ for novices. Verin and Alanna probably didn't have to go to the Two Rivers to find a good crop of novice channellers.
48. hoping to be of the blood
Shara has always impressed me as an intriguing society. I've always wished it played more of a role in the story.
I think all we know about Shara comes from Grendal. Could she have been giving us bad intel to serve her own purposes?
49. Siuanfan
I've always rather liked Alanna. I can't really pinpoint why, but she's one of the Aes Sedai I actually respect, even with the bonding Rand and all. I suspect she'd be one of his strongest supporters and defenders if he'd have been able to stand having her near him after that whole debacle.

But then, like someone said, we still don't know much about her or her motives, so I may be just braiding moonbeams here.
50. frank white
Lol. Keepem coming. Sometimes the comments are too politically correct. Nice to see some old fashioned humor. Hope people see it as such. Not everything has to have meaning behind it.
Jordancon comes at the perfect time. With Leigh taking a break just when I'm about to ride my bike cross country and back. Can't wait.
@43 lol. Glad someone thought the same thing, although my thought ran along the lines of aaarrrgggghhhhh. Emacs all the way.
51. Rebecca Starr
Ch 29
I add to the voices expressing condolences for your loss, Leigh... and ditto to Randalator@23 saying this depiction of grief is the most haunting yet real I've ever read.

On a warmer note, I do so light up inside at this Two Rivers homecoming... whenever that happens in a book, I feel like a little kid all over again. and i love how Marin takes all those guests in her kitchen (well, except Loial) in stride.

Ch 30
does anyone else notice the strange reaction Marin and Bran have when Loial suggests singing to the apple trees for Perrin? any ideas why?

Ch 31
I wonder when Egwene personally had time to warn Perrin about Alanna - must have been in the Stone, I guess.

any thoughts which Forsaken sent the gray man to kill Fain (and I guess, therefore, also Slayer)? wish i could have been a fly on the wall hearing the bargain between Fain and the Myrddraal in his tent.

as to the whole AS bearing children... personally it never bothered me. I honestly saw it as a brilliant move on Jordan's part to give women a purpose other than motherhood/childhood. before people tell me women have tons of other choices, let's just remember that development is only about a century old (if that), and that in many parts of the world, women are still identified solely through their roles as wives and mothers. So for Jordan to create this entire group of women who not only choose not to have children, but who's purpose pretty much excludes have children... ::shrugs:: I think it's brilliant.

but i do see your points about how it makes them too removed from the world.
52. Randalator
YoSoyElJosh @20

Well, regarding AS reproduction, it's likely that their "monthly" cycle takes many months. Women are born with a finite number of eggs

Women start out we a very large number of unfertilized eggs. A lot more than they actually "need" for their monthly cycle. Sources on the net vary a lot but even the smallest number I found was 50 times (~20,000) the actually needed number of eggs (~400) at the beginning of ovulation. The total number of eggs drops rapidly with a woman in her fifties having about 1000 eggs left which triggers the menopause.

A prolonged lifespan indicates a longer lifespan for cells in general which means less "roadkill" among the unfertilized eggs. That means an Aes Sedai could easily be fertile on a monthly basis for ~400 years (oath-less) and not run out of eggs.

re: culling vs. huge numbers of potentials

TOR Q&A stated that 3% of the population were channelers in the Age of Legends and that in present day Randland that was down to 1%. So Verin is correct about the culling.

But 1% of the population is still a freaking huge number which can easily explain the number of channelers we see later in the series. Actively search for candidates and after visiting two or three reasonably sized villages you will have found the ~500 new novices that the Salidar Aes Sedai currently have.
Agnes Kormendi
53. tapsi
@35 taraboner
As far as I remember the Kin keeps the rules for novices regarding this, which means they're not even allowed to have sex (something a lot of Aes Sedai seem to enjoy). Also they have to move quite regularly so that it doesn't show that they age more slowly than the general population, so I don't think they have families.

I agree with those who say that most Aes Sedai do not have children because they don't want to see them (and their children and their grandchildren etc) grow old and die while they stay young.

Seems like the Wise Women and the Windfinders have learned to live with this, but both the Aiel and the Sea Folk live in extremely demanding environments.
Luke M
54. lmelior
@ 50 frank

Glad someone thought the same thing, although my thought ran along the lines of aaarrrgggghhhhh. Emacs all the way.
Ha! So we trade heated debate for holy war. And here Leigh thought we'd go without controversy this time. ;)
55. hoping to be of the blood

I don't think Bain and Chaid followed faile simply for romantic reasons, or out of curiosity about how the faile and perrin situation worked out.

I think they are just the first who fell under faile's spell, along with many others that become faile's private spy group. As much as most here are peeved with faile, she does seem to inspire quite a few people to follow and obey her. Bain and Chaid defer to faile in the decision to stay with Perrin.

Rebecca Starr@51
re marin and bran and apple tree singing
They are quite thrown when an ogier, a legend out of the stories, arrives in their inn. They were even more suprised when they see that he possesses the talent of tree singing that is spoken of in the stories. At least, that's how I see it. Anyone see anything else?
56. Browncoat Jayson
I thought the culling/breeding out of channeling ability was a pretty interesting concept as well, until I remembered that it is tied to the SOUL, not the body. So, its kind of moot.
57. IanGH
As always, great post, Leigh. And thanks for sharing about your father. From my own experience, I know it is difficult to talk about.

I too have wondered about the self-imposed segregation the Aes Sedai seem to be under and fss @3 makes a great point.

Perhaps this is a stretch but I've felt the end of an Age seems to come about when unseen strains of society break into the open. For the Age of Legends, it was mankind's arrogance that they could challenge the creator and break down the barriers between men and women. Oops, we accidentally let the Dark One out. Perhaps the end of this age is the insularity of individual groups- Aes Sedai's Ivory Tower, Whitecloaks' chauvanism, nobles continuously playing Daes Dae'Mar, peasants struggling to survive. All while nations are dieing. (Add to that the fact that men and women can't seem to get along without shouting at- or thumping- each other. Will... not... say... it...) Humankind can no longer sustain itself on the current course so a drastic change in the pattern is required.

On a lighter note, these chapters through the end of the book are where I actually like Faile, which is kind of hard to admit to.
Robert Garza
58. FunBob
I have always thought Perrin's saving the Two Rivers was the best side story in all the book...It has always choked me up, having suffered a personal loss like Leigh and Randalator, but its poignancy was always summed up for me when he stopped mourning the dead and started celebrating the living...
Have fun at Jordancon Leigh! We'll all await your return...
59. drothgery
I remember way back in the days of yore, I was arguing on rasfwr-j that the culling theory was probably bunk. And that if it was happening, Aes Sedai not having children was a much, much bigger factor than hunting down men who can channel.

This should be obvious; women who could learn to channel -- who vastly outnumbered those with the inborn ability -- were being removed en masse from the gene pool by self-selection, while only men with the inborn ability were gentled -- and gentling didn't stop a man from having children anyway, even if he didn't have any kids before the Aes Sedai caught up to him.
60. Siuanfan
Who are these Aes Sedai having sex with? If the ageless face is supposed to elicit a 'HOLYHOLYHOLY almighty infallible Aes Sedai' complex in everyone, who's left for them to get all sweaty and intimate and grapply with? It makes sense if the Warder is also an ongoing sexual partner because he's familiar with his Aes Sedai enough, but though some Greens do this apparently, not all Aes Sedai do - Moiraine and Lan were never intimate, and the Reds don't have warders at all. So who are they bumping uglies with? Backwoods people who can't recognize an Aes Sedai face? Teenage boys too young to know who they're messing with? Guys who are into being dominated? Scruffy, drunken soldiers they meet in a dark alley? Could their vaulted sense of dignity even comprehend such a thing?
61. jlfitz
Regarding Aes Sedai and their lack of child bearing, it reminds me of a statement a professor said about population control and our world wide dangerous exponential growth curve. "If you want to promote population control, give to charities that educate women."

The behavior of Aes Sedai, being very educated in their own ways, would seem to support this notion. I think this ties in even further with Rebecca's comment (51) that Jordan created a female society where childbirth was not necessary.

Is this a suggestion of a class difference in women. Career or Motherhood?
62. BookFairy
What are we to do for the rest of the week? While we suffer through, have a great time.

Weep…Sob…Sniff…more weeping….There is a reason this is my favorite WOT book.
Perrin loosing his entire family, the line about his sisters wearing apple blossoms in their hair. Choking up. I can forgive Faile almost anything for the way she behaves while they are in the Two Rivers. Perrin needs her and (even Faile haters must admit) she is there for him. Even after he sends her away.
Loial and Marin. LOL.
Gaul rocks. He was there for Perrin and he didn’t mean until “it got hard.”
Alanna I could almost like her. Almost. “I am not so lost to custom yet as to bond a man against his will. Not quite yet” Can you say Foreshadowing? If I remember right Faile threatens Alanna with one of her pretty knives. So that she wouldn’t change her mind. Rand should have taken Ave with him when he went to visit Allana and Verin. Then again maybe its better that he didn’t.
Galen Brinn
63. GatheringStorm
Rebecca Star @ 51,

The odd reaction by Bran and Marin al'Vere re: Tree Singing is that most people don't know what an Ogier is, having never seen one and thus aren't aware of the Talent of Tree Singing. So to them, instead of hearing "Singing", they hear "singing" like you or I might do and that's going to sound kind of nuts...
LT Tortora
64. Lucubratrix
I think that part of the reason there have apparently been fewer channelers is two-fold: First, assuming that the ability to channel is a non-dominant trait (like blue eyes), it would make sense if the number of people with the ability declined over time, except in enclaves like the Two Rivers, where there's not very much new material entering the gene pool. Second, the Aes Sedai haven't really gone out and recruited, and because of the self-imposed isolation that many of you have mentioned, most people don't trust the White Tower and are unlikely to try to learn, or to encourage their daughters to go.

Also, re Aes Sedai marrying, it wouldn't surprise me if many of them thought they would, but then after years in the Tower gradually began to realize the difficulties involved and gave up the idea. So for the Supergirls to take for granted that they're going to be married/actually getting married wouldn't be unusual for any women who've only been in Tar Valon for a couple years. It's just that most of them don't get the chance to leave and meet men.

Perrin's homecoming is extremely poignant and well written.
Chiara Elvira
65. elvyelvy
Uncrowned@18 you have just reminded me how long since my last Doom game (sighs)

R.Fife@22 firing squad, BFG ready? :-) the five days with Aunt Flo might do SOME men a huge lot of good, afterwards they wouldn't make fun about women being irritable and nervous in "those days". See how you would be nervous, HA!

frank@50 and lmelior@43 you woolheaded lummox (oh, I find WoT bad language terribly creative and funny), have you no sense at all? Starting a Mac vs. Windows debate? the Light help us all!!!

On a more serious tone, ch. 29 is terribly real and moving and compassionate for the very reasons Leigh pointed out (we may be overtalkative, may stray from the subject at hand, even take up a shouting match in our posts, but we do share and understand) and I feel it's difficult for me to add more.

AS loose in the Two Rivers provide the chance for a side thought: unfortunately (!!!) I tend to be very practical, and some AS life detail kept nagging me.
Apart from the dysfunctional quality of their "organization", I see there is no organization at all: AS come and go,and nobody seems to care a whit. The Amyrlin Seat, ha, I bet she does not know where the other AS are, and why. In short, there is not a sort of central government giving a general direction to its members. The Amyrlin does and decides, but likely as not other sisters do the contrary.
Oh, by the record, they also forget sisters still living. Cadsuane , and Adeleas and Vandene, and possibly more... Shall we mention their presumption of knowing everything? we know the truth to be quite different.
Btw, AS don't do a single day of honest work (except when doing penance, apparently hoeing cabbages and the like), so where do they get their money from? they go around (travelling costs) all dressed in silk (rather expensive). I recall Siuan sifting through the expenses accounts just before her fall, then similar practical details are brought up in reference with Egwene and her need to supply food and everything for the whole lot of Salidar.
They do not evolve, they just go towards involution, and the SG and TG coming were needed to shake things a little, OK, more than a little.
And fss@3 made some very interesting observations: AS are not doing what they supposedly should and are not where they should.

Woops, I will restrain myself and stop ranting.
Have fun at JordanCon, Leigh, and be back soon with a post. It will be a very long week, very long.
Alice Arneson
66. Wetlandernw
51. Rebecca Starr
55. hoping to be of the blood
on Ogier/Treesinging/Marin&Bran

I always thought that most folks in the TR (and probably much of Randland) more or less considered Ogier a myth, just like they had considered Trollocs to be an old wives tale until they actually showed up a year or so ago. It's also quite probable that they didn't know much about the whole tree-singing thing, even from the stories. So when Loial offers, in all seriousness, to sing to the apple trees, they are completely flummoxed. I mean... sing to the trees? Hello? We're talking about Whitecloaks and Trollocs and families being killed, and you want to sing? to the TREES?? They'll understand after they get to know Loial, but right now he's so far outside their experience they haven't a clue.

Like many others, chapter 29 makes me cry. Every time. Even in the recap. Even now, just thinking about it. My beloved sister/best friend died in a car accident when I was in college, and my mom from complications after a broken hip about 3 years ago. Even knowing that I'll see them again, the here-and-now grief is profound. Oddly enough, the intervening years (I won't tell you how many, but it's a lot!) and the suddenness of one vs. the expectation of the other don't really make a lot of difference in how much I grieve those losses. And Leigh, I thought that was a good insight on the "elaborate funereal customs". Having things to do, people to talk to, expectations to meet, really DO help get you through the numb days following. (I must say, though, that it had a severely deleterious effect on my Organic Chemistry studies. I couldn't concentrate on that one for some reason.)

I also appreciated the quote from chapter 30: Given a few hours, they might send each other to bed with the shakes. As a reader, I appreciate the lightness of humor as contrast to the gut-wrenching effect of the previous events, and I think it reflects reality pretty well too. Even in the middle of this horrendous time, Perrin's sense of humor is still there to note the interaction. Thank God for humor! It doen't relieve the pain, and you wouldn't want it to, but it loosens the pressure a little so that you can breathe again.

By now someone else probably said all that about the treesinging, but oh well.
67. bookworm
@55 hoping to be of the blood.

Faile's "spell"? Interesting, but I can't agree. I'm sticking with my Bain and Chiad theory until I hear a cogent argument otherwise.

Her spies just wanted to "join up", and only Faile scooped them up. No one else wanted anything to do with them. There's likely a syndrome for that kind of behavior, but I'll have to look around some to see.

Please provide more information as to why you think Faile has some mystical leadership quality. I don't believe it, but maybe you have more to say about it?
68. Freelancer
@35 Taraboner,

The Kin's Rule specifically prohibits marriage/children. They know that they need to move around now and then to remain anonymous, and so that their lack of aging is not noticed. A member of the Kin with a family would find it hard not to stay put somewhere. Besides, after a while even folks who didn't know you for the last 25 years might wonder at you appearing younger than your children, and MUCH younger than your husband. So, no kids for Kin.

But, this topic raises a paradox. Many references suggest that channeling is a hereditary trait. Is it factual, or just another of the wrong suppositions that characters in the story fall into? Apparent facts suggest that it is not hereditary, considering that folks like Egwene probably know their own family history for quite a few generations back, and there are no known channelers among them. But, there's also the difference between those who could be taught, and those with the spark. And since the Aes Sedai don't go actively recruiting anymore, but wait for girls to come to them, they miss (nearly) all of those who'll never know they could have become channelers. Which, of course, returns credibility to the hereditary argument.

Wesley: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."
Vizzini: "Wait 'till I get going!"
70. CireNaes
I believe it is a mix of soul and body. So less genetically suited bodies available means less soulishly suited souls spun out means less channelers. This is why Lanfear is weaker, but still pretty darn strong. That's the 2nd strongest body in the bell curve that the Dark One had available at the time she died probably because It used the first strongest female body on Aran'gar/Balthamel so s/he could at least be as strong as s/he formerly was.
71. CireNaes
So your strength in the One Power is proportional to both your soul and your body. I can almost see Lanfear's soul waiting in a body going "No whammies, no whammies, no whammies...ahhh crap!"
72. frank white
Lol. No war. I will be away for a week or so so I wouldn't be able to participate. Peace favor your sword.

Not windows v mac. It's a Unix thing. On a Autur Hawkwing scale.
73. Dreamwolf
Leight, thanks for the reread, nice work.

Regarding 1% able to learn to channel. That includes all those whose ability's are like Morgases or just above. The WT trains those novices whose ability is small just so much that they don't hurt themselves or others and until they are properly conditioned not to pretend to be AS ever, then they let them go.
Presumably those girls does procreate.

A reasonable assumption is that only 10% of all that has any talent has enough talent to reach the shawl, even at the low standards of the current times and then we haven't considered any demands on intelligence, a spine or a moral compass (not that the last seems high priority).
Jason Provis
74. Hondru
I never put it together that Luc/Isam (whatever- a total mess of a character) as being there to assassinate Fain. Though Fain really shouldn't worry...nobody who works for the D.O. can actually accomplish anything. I actually don't know why ppl are scared of darkfriends & co.: they never actually succeed at ANYTHING. The Forsaken get their butts handed to them by rookies (aka the SuperGirls and Rand) every time.

@ 29. RedHanded, i think you have it there. AS have preference for issues that will raise them in the eyes of other AS , and the rest of Randland is just the chessboard they use to further their projects.

Leigh, you rule!! Keep it up!!
Brett Michie
75. bchurch
bookworm @ 65

Consider Faile's parents. Her dad is one of the most acclaimed generals of the time and her mother is a very shrewd strong woman. I think that growing up in that household would definitely lend her an ability to be a good leader.

As to whether or not this accounts for Bain and Chiad following her, I'm not sure. It could be. And It could be a mix of things, which I believe to be most likely. We must not forget causality here, it's usually many, many things that drive what people do, rather than singular or few.

Frelancer @ 68

Vizzini: "Where was I?"
76. Teddroe
I've always liked the chapters with Abell and Tam in them, and I wish we got more of those two. I think one of the reasons for this is that they manage to be badass while also retaining a degree of normality. No channeling, lucking, wolfing, etc, just lots of practice with quarterstaff and bow. Also, I have a lot of respect for them for they're selflessness, the month+ journey to Tar Valon and back for they're kids and the risky upcoming rescue especially.

I'm really hoping for more of these two in KoD, especially Rand's reunion with Tam. They'll certainly have some ground to cover...
77. hoping to be of the blood

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a faile apologist, I don't even like her, but she is presented as a fierce woman who controls things behind the scenes, and, as I have said before, is integral to Perrin's success. It's not a big jump to see her as am important female leader. She certainly has the genes for leadership and the training in the saldean court to back it up.

I called it faile's "spell" because so much of her appeal must happen "off-stage." I don't feel it but the results are everywhere. Beyond her effect on Perrin in saving tTRs, she is responsible for developing almost a new society there.

Before she came, the Cha Faile were simply a group of Tairens and Carheinen playing at being Aiel. She molded them into an effective force that took direct orders from her. How did she do it? I don't know but they are loyal to her and follow her everywhere. I don't think it's because they have nothing better to do.

The scene with Alliandre in tPoD is choreographed largely by Faile. Alliandre herself says "I said that my Lord Perrin is formidable. May I add that his wife is every bit as formidable." That's a queen talking about a sixteen year old. Even Annoura and Berelain are impressed.

Plus, she rescued herself and an ever widening circle of others from the Aiel, when a queen, Morgase, was foundering. She definitely is a person that others look to for answers.

The reason I think B and C are among the first (Perrin is the first) to fall under her "spell" is that I don't think that Aiel would abandon their mission, to find He Who Comes... (Rhuarc still not certain even after Tear) for the comparitively frivolous purpose of romance.

But I could be wrong...

It' either responding to this or watching "Dancing with the Stars"
Easy choice
Lannis .
78. Lannis
Late to the party again... oh well, we've got lots of time, don't we?

Chapter 29: Leigh, I, too, have lost a parent (2005), and I agree, Perrin's reaction is realistic... That said, my first reads of tSR were before I lost my mother, and it made me cry back then (even when I knew the chapter was coming), and I'm not a crier. This time around, I was, like you, struck by the realism of Perrin's response. Jordan, obviously, had lost someone, too.

And Leigh, I'm so sorry to hear about your father. Words don't mean much, I know. But sometimes it helps to know you're not alone.

Re: Red Ajah... are they not *allowed* to have friends outside their Ajah? I thought it was more of a generalization, and a joke (because friendship for Reds outside of Reds was uncommon). I didn't think it was opposed. But I'd believe it. Anyone?

Re: Alanna... the impression I retain of her is of being the exception to the Aes Sedai rule--she's rash, emotional, and a fraking nightmare. Now, this may not reflect what she truly is, but this is what I think of when I hear "Alanna Mosvani."

grayfox @ 44: Re: "the look"... ah, yes... I still get it. That "you lost your parent/sibling and that might be catching" look. It also includes a side of "I have no idea what to say and feel I keep putting my foot in my mouth so I just won't talk to you" avoidance. I remember grieving the loss, but it wasn't until I saw myself through someone else's eyes (lost Mom 18 days before delivering my firstborn) that I actually felt sorry for myself... something I revile. (No Pity Parties allowed!) That "look" can be deadly--but you get used to it.

Have a blast at JordanCon, Leigh! :)

(Mac! Mac! Mac!)
79. Planeswalker
Alanna and Verin - nice intros!

Perrin - poor guy... whole family lost (in one stroke!)

Two Rivers folk - I think in the next few chapters we are going to see their cowardness. (Lost Manetheren - yeah right!) Except for Tam and Abel, it is only later on that the 'old blood' surfaces.

Fain - irritating.
80. Rand Al'Todd
RE Rebecca Starr @51
"does anyone else notice the strange reaction Marin and Bran have when Loial suggests singing to the apple trees for Perrin? any ideas why?"

I read that part of the discussion and immediately thought of Clint Eastwood in "Paint Your Wagon" - one of his songs has the line "I talk to the trees, but they don't listen to me..."

Wonder if Loial would be disappointed if the ??untrained?? apple trees did not know how to react??? :-) :-)

On the other hand, after listening to Loial, maybe they would have joined in the march against Saruman.
Brett Michie
81. bchurch
My sincere condolences to those of you who've lost loved ones. I agree that words don't offer much, but I thank you for sharing. I lost my mother when I was 8 and my father when I was 30. When Perrin learns of his loss is still one of the most moving scenes for me, touching a deep place that is hard to articulate.

Lannis & Grayfox

I totally understand the look. As a child, it was a very strange thing for me.
lanyo lanyo
82. lanyo
These (and the next few) are the chapters where you can LOVE Perrin. He's sad, he's real, he's confused by life, he's about to go kick some Whitecloak behind...
It makes later so very very hard. But for now, he's very cool. And Fail is so unlike herself, being supportive and caring.

And i think i got plenty of Gaul's sense of humor (if not all the Aiel jokes) the first time around. How is it NOT funny to almost kill someone who should be an ally, or to see your friend and his girlfriend fight like idiots, or for mighty warriors to be herded by a motherly type as if they were all 5 years old?
Amar Ramraj
83. aiel1219
I haven't read all the comments as yet... but here goes (so if I repeat sommn ... mah bad... yo siento)

I think I can understand the AS not having kids thing... Imagine u live for hundreds of years and u have kids.... in their world it's fairly unlikely for these kids to be AS thrmsrlvrs... which means they get to watch their kids die which has gotta be HARD on anyone(p.s. Terry Brook addressed this issue with the Palaces of Prophets Sisters in his Sword of Truth Series... which I thought also had alot of interesting social.cultural/ moral themes).

I agree that the greens should've been more
involved in the borderlands... them being the battle ajah n all.

But about the yellows.... not so sure... most ppl in Randland don't really trust AS so they may have had problems "setting up shop" in alot of places but they could have done so in the borderlands (or atleast Shinear... I know I spelled that wrong) and perhaps in Andor.

But then again after the whole breakin being blamed on AS in general the world may have been very harsh towards them and I can see how this and their need to fight the Shadow (and having super powers) could probably result in an organization like theirs.

@4. Lsana
The heroines having kids and a husband etc. may be a sign that a new age is abt to drop like a ton o bricks on Randland.
Amar Ramraj
84. aiel1219
I say BFG should be upgraded to RRRBFG... Really Really REEEAAAALLLLY BFG
(and for those of u who don't know... BFG is Big Fuckin Gun ... well for most of us who love that certain first person shooter game :)
86. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Did anybody else think it odd that the Women's Circle decided to cooperate with the Aes Sedai. And in secret, no less. Are they supposed to like the idea of Aes Sedai hunting around in their area for potential recruits? I wonder what half-truths the Aes Sedai told. Or if they simply bullied the Women's Circle. Freaking women. Didn't even give a straight answer when Perrin asked what they were doing there. Good for Perrin that he realized Rand was twice as strong as either of them. Though it's not really that. Try twice as strong as both of them. Combined.

Another Two Rivers badassness moment occurs when Faile won't believe anybody can be a better archer than Perrin. She must have thought Perrin was in the top tier for a Two Rivers archer. Not even close.

fss @3
Tarna Feir is the new Keeper. Also one of the more tolerable Reds around. As for the rest of the rant, I agree 100%.

UncrownedKing @5
Yes, Whitecloaks suck. No need to point it out. They don't really get better until Galad takes over in KoD. And that's offscreen for the most part.

GatheringStorm @6
True. Perrin basically badmouths Rand and Mat. The way he said it, it's as if Rand and Mat could not even be bothered to come.

Samadai @9
I don't really get your point. Alanna's stupid thing IS one of the major reasons why Rand won't trust Aes Sedai. Almost right up there with trying to break him and keeping him in a box. And Alanna's thing had far more longterm effects than the box. She won't even release him at his request.

GatheringStorm @11
err.. Cadsuane is the oldest at just a few years below 300. And that's equivalent to about eighty-ish.

R.Fife @19
True, Greens being cooped up in the Tower sounds strange. They were practically the only Ajah Hawkwing would work with.

YoSoyElJosh @25
That's because the Aes Sedai as an order has become a perverted shadow of its AOL self. They would only need the outlook you described if they were out to manipulate others from the start. The "Servants of All" want to be "Masters of Everything".

R.Fife @46
Well then, all we have to worry about now is how to figure the Sharans into the Westland channeling genepool.

Tony Zbaraschuk @47
Absolutely. High and Mighty Aes Sedai can't be bothered to muck around looking for potential recruits.

Siuanfan @60
Per Tarna's POV one could find a man that was not intimidated. If one looked hard enough.

elvyelvy @65
LOL @ Mac vs. Windows debate. It's like the taint on Saidin vs. the evil of Shadar Logoth. Both alike but different.
As for AS expenses, it's mentioned later that each receives a stipend. Likely starting when they attain the shawl. One of the Reds uses hers to send her male kin to school and this is how she is identified as one who might agree to bond a Warder. Tar Valon has enough resources to make good on a "cheque" (I forget what they actually call it) worth a small fortune. Where Tar Valon first got its resources is where the money trail gets cold however.

hoping to be of the blood @77
Err... She scooped up Cha Faile because she needed help in indulging her taste for intrigue. Them being an effective force, though is stretching it a bit. They don't really become any good until Seban Balwer takes charge of them.

aiel1219 @84
Hey! No profanity! It's Big Fragging Gun. :P
87. toddywatts
I think that Marin and Bran still regard Perrin as a child, so seeing that an ogier thinks enough of him to sing for the trees marking the grave of his family is surprising, although I'm sure they decided in retrospect that it shouldn't be.

With the slowing of the Aes Sedai under the Oath Rod, would their pregnancies last longer? Imagine being very pregnant during this summer and the next and the one after that...

Ahh, Alanna. I really liked her up until her big WTF moment. What was she thinking?!
Amar Ramraj
88. aiel1219
I just read a comment (like 15 + comments back about loving the badassery of Rand's and Mat's Pops...Tam and Abel)

WHY oh WHY couldn't Perin's pops be badass.... how to work this into the story???... maybe Perin could have seen his pops fark up 50 trollocs with a table leg b4 geing stabbed in da back or summn... (another exaggeration....I like to do that)

*stomps his feet and pouts* PERIN'S POPS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BADASS TOO!!!!!!

or Maybe his Mum could have gone all MAIDEN OF THE SPEARS on some Trollocs!!! Like the TR women do later!

EDIT: When I talked abt Perin seing his dad fightin trollocs thing, I meant seeing it in the wolfdream... like the "windows" into the future thingy tht happens sumtimes.
Joseph Blaidd
89. SteelBlaidd
For those AS who don't limit their sexual recreation to Pilow FriendstheirEternal Sexual Freedom is probably insured by an Air cervical cap and/or the Heart Leaf tea Elayne doesn't drink before celebrating bonding Rand. Though it may or may not be 100% effective :D

One of the things I love in this section is Perrin's observation of the interesting congruity of advice, for getting your way in a relationship, between Marin and Tam. (I.e. let the other person have their way most of the time)

Re: where they get the Money. The White Tower Bank (See NS) which has been around as long as the White Tower, lent Hawking money at one point, and likely owns lots of land in a lot of places. On top of that they only have to support 1000 Aes Sedai a lot of which probably don't spend all their allowance and most of whom just redeposit it right back in to the WTB (Moraine is unusual in using a separate bank).

A note on the culling. Among the Aiel not only are all potential channelers found and trained but it is strongly implied that they are expected to reproduce.

Rand is also aware of the isolation problem, and thinks that it's harder for a man to forget what he is fighting for with his family around him. The Black Tower is full of wives and children and resembles a modern military base, with bachelor and married housing, rather than the Monastery of the White Tower.
90. Tony Zbaraschuk
Tar Valon has another advantage: it's a completely safe city. No thieves, no invading armies (well, not that anyone outside the Tower remembers anyway), and perfect defenses, all make it a wonderful place to deposit money in perfect security. Bankers are probably the second most important group in the city after the White Tower.

Plus it's on the only major trade route (the River Erinin) between the Borderlands and Tear/Caerhien/Andor; that gives it plenty of opportunity to tap into the trade and get stuff.

We do get some mentions later in the series of Aes Sedai occasionally having affairs with men who are intrigued or not cowed by them. (Pevara, I think, considers this when looking for Aes Sedai who can bond Asha'man as Warders). Marrying Warders is apparently unusual, but it does happen.
91. gagecreedlives
Gaul is awesome. That guy has a sense of humour and a half. Him and the maidens have just made the al’Vere's the richest people in the Two Rivers (if they werent already).

Does Perrin find out that it was Fain and a whitecloack coverup not trollocs that killed his family?

I think in AMoL that Perrin will meet up with Galads whitecloacks and wont that be interesting. To quote Fain "You! Not who I expected. Surprises for everyone, eh?"

I wonder what exactly Fain can do that will make a fade sweat and do we hear from his pet fade again?

And BFG indeed. Wow that brought back some memories.
Chiara Elvira
92. elvyelvy
frank@72 you got me here, Unix/Linux is as stranger to me as the Blight or Shara - but it's never late to learn :-)

and yohoo I see a small group of BFG users around here (smiles very very pleased).
R.Fife@85 Aiel humour maybe? (hahahaha)
it will get there, eventually, but no crossbow bolt!!! BFG is bigger, noisier, huge, the balefire of weapons!!! ask aiel 1219 :-)

Hmm, the money! I do remember now Pevara, but I did not remember the allowance. Nice to have another piece properly placed in the large puzzle, though the money trail seems to get, well, vague. The Erinin trading route might be a good explanation, though.
93. Artsapat
Re: Bain/Chiad POV.

Would have been nice. But I forget: did we EVER get any Aiel POV? Other than Shaido later on, how can't be considered Aiel anymore by that time, after their

Re: Marriage / Culling.

Do you think the phallus symbol of the White Tower is intentional, just as the "Ivory Tower" part definitely is?
94. JustMo
re Aes Sedai marrying--I dunno where I read it, but one of the AS (Moiraine I think) says that they don't marry for a ton of different reasons, one of which is that it takes a particular type of man to have a wife who is stronger than he in a number ways and not be intimidated by it. Makes sense to me.
95. bookworm
@75 bchurch.

I think you misunderstand casuality, or I'm really missing what you're trying to say. In my view, better would be Occam's Razor, that the simplest explantion is most likely to be true. Perhaps that works for "who killed Asmodean" too, but I still argue with myself about that one.

Yes - Davram Bashere (btw, not a Great Captain), can't wait to meet him. I have things to ask about Davram Bashere.

@77 hoping to be of the blood

Unlike most, I actually like the character Faile - for all of her failings. Why so many of you don't would make for a very interesting psychological discussion at a Con someday.

The thing is, Faile has been trained to act the noblewoman for years, and if I'm not mistaken, trained to act as head of the Bashere estates. This is a key difference where her experience trumps Perrin's Ta'veren-ness at times. Queen Alliandre is a farm queen from the back 40 compared to one of the Borderland kingdoms. It is hardly surprising that Faile can impress her so easily.

Somebody else said it first, it was Sebban Balwer that made Cha Faile an effective group of operatives. They are loyal to her, because she is the only person who took them seriously. Think about that. Very powerful motivation.

What kept Faile going when she was a captive of the Shaido was the sure belief that Perrin would rescue her. That small psychological boost would have given her a big edge over most anybody else in the same situation. As it is, she almost cracked anyway.

You think romance to be - frivolous? Well, well. That speaks a volume about your perspective. Let me propose that some people take it a lot more seriously than you do.

That's it. I get to the end of your comments and then you give up any credibility you might have had just a few moments ago. Responding or Dancing with the Stars? Surely, you jest? Easy choice, yes. But, you had to think about it.
96. hoping to be of the blood

Faile is formidable, let's give her credit.

It's not what I think about romance -it's about the aiel. I would be one of the "soft things that die in the Waste." The aiel are an honor driven, warrior society.

As far as "Dancing..." goes, let's just say that I get certain points with my wife for watching with her. ;)
Amar Ramraj
97. aiel1219
@95 bookworm
did u just say Davram Bashere is not a great captin?

What did u mean?
As I recall What's her face's warder said he was one of the last great generals left....1 sec while I find the quote... ah here it is...
"There do be few great captains living." Nuhel marked them off on gauntleted fingers. "Agelmar Jagad
and Davram Bashere will no leave the Blight, I think, and Pedron Niall will surely no be of use to you. If Rodel
Ituralde do be alive, he do be mired somewhere in what do remain of Arad Doman." He raised his thick thumb.
"And that do 'leave Gareth Bryne."

And this is a WARDER giving him credit here... the don't just do that on a whim... as ar rule.

I didn't read your ebtire post btw... so if u changed that statement am sorry for mentionin it... now to read on
98. bookworm
@96 hoping to have a shorter handle someday?

Aiel, or not. Human behavior confounds even the "experts". There is yet to be a cogent argument that Bain, Chiad and Gaul haven't turned into a romantic triangle. It's one of those non-PoV story lines that enriches the rest of the series.

Faile is a complex character. She has experiences that have begun to help her (and Perrin) get through a minefield of human interactions with a disparate lot of people. Still, she lacks experience in certain areas (like personal relationships) that seem to drive some readers to distraction.

If nothing else, I believe RJ had a masterful handle on the capabilities (and limitations) of the human creature, which enables his characters to have a richness and depth that keeps us all arguing for ages.

For my part, your excuse doesn't hold water. lol.
99. bookworm
@97 aiel1219.

Well, oops. I forgot that Bashere was in that quote. Good catch!
100. Randalator
Browncoat Jayson @56

Channeling is both tied to the soul AND genetics. A channelers soul in a body without the right genes (read: lacking the One Power antennas) is as useless as a non-channelers soul in a body with antennas.

re: Aes Sedai finances

They get their money like nobility. Taxes, trade, customs, services (e.g. Healing, Negotiations), etc.
101. Papas
Haven't commented earlier but am an avid reader, great work!!! (Been reading this instead of going for an 8th re-read or something...)

Just a quick note on Alanna. I actually like her because she is one of the select groups of AS that actually help Rand, and realize that helping him is far more important that anything else (hint hint to rebel Aes Sedai). Big deal if the Tower survives strong and good if Rand fails...
Blake Engholm
102. UncrownedKing
@ 68 Freelancer

"Wesley: 'Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.'
Vizzini: 'Wait 'till I get going!' "

Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead.
Vizzini: No more rhyming now, I mean it.
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?

@87 Toddywatts

I agree. I haven't thought about it that way before, but it makes perfect sense. This is only a precurser to what crazy Tavareness is going to ensue (mainly Perrin convincing people to pick up and leave their farms with little more than a 10 min convo).

Are we going to see any Aiel Ash'a'man? I mean common, they could be the Marine Recon Unit of the Light (Aiel Asha'man Unit of the Light AAUL). You can't tell me thats not the most awesome thing ever concieved by a man? Aiel all in Black Cadinsor (wow sp?) with a dragon and a spear pin on their collar. Running, scouting, channeling, and destorying all enemies in their path. I'm so pumped just thinking about it.
Richard Fife
103. R.Fife
@102 Would Rand still make them learn the sword, or would he let them use spear instead? Hmmm...
104. Perrin77
Leigh, thanks for sharing about your dad. My dad passed away New Years day 2006, and I can recall very vividly how pointless things seemed to be. Every time I read chapter 29, I have a tear in my eye and can really feel the emotions that Perrin is going through. The crushing of the wine glass, the ignoring it while focusing on anything and everything else, and finally that crushing feeling when you give into the grief. Faile also goes up a few pegs for her actions in this chapter.

Chapter 30 - How many people know someone from their neighborhood or community just like Cenn Buie. The old curmudgeon who always sticks his nose in where it does not belong. Also, loved the way Perrin was the first to react to the Warders with his wolf senses.

Chapter 31 - Ah foreshadowing, how do I love thee. That whole line about not ready to bond someone against their will YET, nice. Also, Perrin entering badass general mode.

Have a great time at JordanCon. You will be missed here on the interwebs. Until then, I will just have to spend all my time in the WOTFAQ section.
105. Lsana
@78 Lannis,

The Reds actually forbidden to have friends outside the Ajah. When Pevara tried to hold on to her friendship with Seaine, she was dressed down and essentially forced to cut Seaine out of her life.
Lannis .
106. Lannis
The white cloaks were soiled here. But the swords were sharp, and obedience instant and unquestioning. Bornhald thought these men were still his. Pedron Niall believed it, too, believed Ordeith his tame creature. Fools.

IIRC, the Whitecloacks are supposed to be fastidious in their dress. Am I the only one thinking that Whitecloaks not obsessively clean when camped is probably a humongous RED ALERT! How can Bornhald and Byar not see this? Do they not NOTICE?

Or do they and I'm forgetting?

SteelBlaidd @ 89:

One of the things I love in this section is Perrin's observation of the interesting congruity of advice, for getting your way in a relationship, between Marin and Tam. (I.e. let the other person have their way most of the time)

I agree... I think it highlights the fact that men and women have different priorities, as the characters seem to feel that when they are letting the other person in the relationship take the lead it is an "unimportant" decision. (EEK! That smacks of gender politics!) *ducks and covers*

Lsana @ 105: Thanks! I forgot. :)
107. RebelLives
Lannis @ 106

I don't know if it states that they notice per say. I think Bornhald does notice, but doesn't do anything about it because he is falling into a drunken stupor and is obsessed with finding Perrin. Byar just follows orders, so as long as Bornhald doesn't say anything Byar mostly keeps his mouth shut.
Chiara Elvira
108. elvyelvy
Perrin@104 fact is there are many many hints and ironic tips (like the one concerning Alanna) that go inevitably lost on the first read. Yet when a later event should and could trigger the irony, that particular bit is easily lost in the amount of facts characters events of... how many? 8.500 and more pages? Only in my last re-read (2008) when I got to
"I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused.”
“She would not be,” Alanna laughed.

And having fresh in my memory that Alviarin is black the real irony of it hit me. Before it was just the reaction of an AS to an idea so out of the ordinary for them and not very "cool & mysterious" by AS standards. Funny but.. that was that. Now it's purely awesome.

And who knows how many of those little gems I have lost in 11 books.
Blake Engholm
109. UncrownedKing
R.Fife @103

No they would use spears of fire and bucklers of lightning, or earth. Or spears of lightning and sheilds of fire. The possibilities are endless.
Chiara Elvira
110. elvyelvy
UncrownedKing, Aiel Asha'man Unit of the Light AAUL is really supercool, but I think we won't see that in AMoL. Pity.
Galen Brinn
111. GatheringStorm
alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed @ 86,

I was simply using the numbers that someone else posted, which was the source of 400 (I believe this is the age that Alivia gives for herself). But, let's recalculate on 300, then.

300 = 80. 300/80 = 3.75. So, an AS takes 3.75 years to age 1 calendar year. Figure slowing starts at about 25, so there's another 25 calendar years of available time left: 25*3.75 = 93.75. So almost another 94 calendar years left, where female AS can potentially have children.

My calculations in the original post may not have been quite as accurate (migraine at the time...and I don't feel like going back and redoing it), aside from the different maximum age number that was used.

Now, Re: The Kin, someone mentioned that they wouldn't grow old as compared to their kids/husband. Please don't take this as an argument that they don't have rules against marrying and having children, 'cause it's not, but that possibility didn't seem to stop AoL Aes Sedai. Granted, there aren't many that we know about but Lews Therin did have children, who may or may not have been able to channel. I can't recall whether or not his wife could, but there's always the possibility that the children might depending on whether both parents could channel and the significance of the genetic component.

If genetics is the predominant factor, then having two parents who can channel, they both have the recessive gene for it. Therefore two channelers, cc x cc = cc (for the kid). If you have Cc (non-channeler) x cc, then the chances are less. CC (non-channeler) x cc and it's not going to happen (for the kid).
Elroy Skimms
112. elroyskimms
Too many posts to read so I do not know if this has been mentioned, but I think that the ability to channel has to have at least some kind of a genetic link. If Nynaeve (and others now) can Heal a woman after being Stilled, or a man after being Gentled, there must be something physical about the ability. Healing can only go so far, they can't Heal Rand's hand back on once it gets blown off, you can't Heal what is not there. So you wouldn't be able to Heal someone who could not channel into being able to channel. But if there is a physical connection to being able to channel, then there has to be some kind of genetic connection. That's not to say that it is all genetic, but any theory would have to take that into account.

Speaking of children of parents who can channel, I like the way RJ is heading with the children of Maud'dib Rand and Elayne. I can only begin to imagine the kind of badassery that will come from that union, assuming of course that, "His blood on the rocks" is not referring to his lineage AKA children...

113. Jonathan Grizzell
I thought that all the reasons that AS don't procreate have been very well stated in the posts.

@JustMo I think that the most important reason that there are not as many AS with children is exactly because there are very few men that could live with a woman that is more powerful than themselves. The Supergirls have all found some one that could deal with this problem.

Imagine if you will. You are at a bar and there are a lot of pretty girls there. They are all packed in together, and you can't get one alone to talk to her. Also imagine if you know that they are much more powerful than you are. Then imagine that instead of being at the bar, they are thousands of miles away. Add to that, all the rumors are that these girls are the next thing to evil, and that if she offers you anything, you need to really look at it because it will probably come back to bite you on the hindquarters.

Add to all this the difficulty in finding someone special, without all these hangups, and you can see why it would be difficult for an AS to ever be with a child. Other than James Bond, Who would have the testicular fortitude to hit on them? I can barely ask for extra bread at a local diner because I think the waitress is cute. Let alone deal with all these other issues. :-)
114. bookworm
I still cherish the idea that Semirhage could Heal Rand. Eventually, we'll get to the part where it describes her history, and then I should have a better idea about it.
Galen Brinn
115. GatheringStorm
bookworm @ 114,

Ditto. How many times are we told (from both modern AS and Forsaken perspective) that anything short of death could-have-been/can/should/ be Healed/Healable?
116. ben Frey
oath rod= shorter life and birth control
117. bookworm
The Wiki says Semirhage was a Restorer, called in for the "impossible" jobs.

The problem is that I think she believes that she will be free soon enough, because it always worked for her before.
118. Lsana
@108 elvyelvy,

I noticed that point too on this re-read. If Alviarin was really the one who put forth the idea of mating male channelers, I wonder just what she was planning to do with the children...
119. That Guy
Hey everyone, sorry I didn't contribute to the last discussion, but that one went a bit off course to say the least.

I would say Callandor would be the BFG. The Choedan Kal would probably equate more to WMD's.

Just my two cents.

I agree an Aiel POV would have been very interesting, but I think what I would like more would be a Loial POV. I can't recall if we ever get one, but I am pretty sure that we don't.

I think that Perrin has almost reached the peak of his coolness, of course culminating when he frees the Two Rivers. He starts to slide down some afterwards, but goes back up a bit with the rescuing of Rand. Then he just appears to stall. I see that I am not alone in thinking that the whole chasing the Shaido thing was long and boring. It did have some interesting moments, but for the most part I just try to get through it as fast as possible when I'm re-reading.

As much as people are mad at Alanna for the bonding of Rand, if you think about it, it turns out to be a necessary evil, as it leads Cadsuane to him later.

Aiel @88

Perrin's Dad being bad ass still wouldn't have saved him when Fain came calling. So maybe he was, but we just didn't get to see any proof of it.


Agree that Semirhage could do it, the question is will anyone figure out that she can?
120. Shadow_Jak
Agree that Semirhage could do it, the question is will anyone figure out that she can?

Question is... would anyone in their right mind want to be healed by Semi?!
121. That Guy
Question is... would anyone in their right mind want to be healed by Semi?!

A masochist?
123. longtimefan
Apparently the re read is being done with an amended series of the books. I remember the original version where Perrin's sisters were distracting since he had admitted in a previous conversation with Egwene(in the first book I think)that he had no sisters.
124. Samadai
Exactly who in their right mind is going to allow Semi to draw on the one power to heal Rand
Galen Brinn
125. GatheringStorm
Re: Semirhage healing. Sometimes, you take what you have to in order to get things done. Who knows...

longtimefan @ 123,

I'm pretty sure that's actually a conversation with Min, at the beginning of TDR. It got fixed in later printings of that book.
Galen Brinn
126. GatheringStorm
Samadai @ 124,

If you're desperate enough...

That being said, I don't think Rand "cares" at this point, at least as far as I can tell from his reactions in the book.

Interestingly enough, we get some foreshadowing of the damaged eyesight in Book 8. I just started the re-read of this book and in the Prologue, Moridin is playing "stones" and mentions the piece called The Fisher and that it

"was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time...Perhaps The Fisher came from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, a memory of a memory".
127. kantoka
Fantastic commentary on these chapters! Love it.
See you at JordanCon... I am stoked to hear you at your panel! =)
128. That Guy
Samadai @123

That's what a'dam are for! Make her work for her food.

Gathering Storm @126

I think you are correct sir.
129. Mark-S
Completely off topic comment since we have a week to kill...

During my first read of the WOT (Back when I had no idea how to pronounce the names) I always had a suspicion that Taim was going to kill Abell.
Marc Gioglio
130. u_turnagain
I don't know why it is assumed that eggs will last longer or be cycled more slowly in AS women.

If we allow 50 years of age to be the max childbearing age and 35 years of age to be the time you get raised to AS, that leaves 15 years to go. But you would probably be confined to the tower for 10 more years to learn your ajah customs, and the only people you meet during those years are servants...
So, that leaves the ages of 45-50 to reproduce. Chances are, if their goal was to have children, one of the promotion devices would determine them to be unfit as AS, so only with a lucky shot from Cupid at the right time could the desire and ability be present at the same time. That is, unless you wish to push Accepted and Novices in to finding husbands (or just sperm) during their training which would make anyone snort, scowl or tug on their braid.

On a separate note. I'm listening to TEOTW and heard a reference to the Red Ajah purpose of preventing another breaking of the world. As muchas I wish for the red ajah to still exist post AMOL, I think this cannot be. They will fail at preventing a breaking (which was a silly goal anyway) whether they help Rand win, or let him lose. In fact, I don't see why the Reds are not acting like the brotherless right now. Their entire purpose for being is being challenged by the forces of good and evil. (Although those are typically the people I root for, so maybe I'll have to tint my reread to this vantage point from now on.)
132. Mark-S
Mazrim Taim (I'm one of the I-pronounce-it-Tame crowd)

It never ocured to me that Tam would kill Abell (And doesn't Tam rhyme with ham or do I have that one wrong too?)
Blake Engholm
133. UncrownedKing
Yeah I don't know where thats coming from. Never got that notion.
134. hoping to be of the blood
Mark S
A biblical reference?
135. Samadai
I know they could use an A'dam on her, but they could not force her to share her knowledge about healing. She would have to meld the flows not whoever was controlling her. Unless you think that they can break Semirhage, but even then do you think Cadsuane or Nynaeve would allow her to heal Rand. I am of the opinion that Cad will form a circle and still Semi.
136. That Guy
Or an oath rod, but that would be interesting to see how that would work, I don't know how old she is.

It would be a waste of a golden opportunity if Cad did that. I think Ny and Rand can give a little insight into how information from the Forsaken can be very helpful.

To bad they couldn't do like Lanfear did to Asmo, that way she would be able to show the weave even if she couldn't make it work. Sorilea showed that that was possible.
Galen Brinn
137. GatheringStorm
I don't know about an immediate stilling. I think Cadsuane is savvy enough to realize that they can learn a lot from Semirhage, like the StuporGirls were from Moghedien: Nynaeve might even be able to figure out the weaves necessary to Heal Rand properly.
138. Samadai
I suppose your right but can you imagine Lews Therins reaction to Semirhage channeling at Rand. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh get that psycho b&^%* away from me. lmao
139. Mark-S
@ 134. hoping to be of the blood
Yes, the Cain and Abel story
Helen Peters
140. Helen
Oath rod = birth control.

Yeah, I reckon so. If you've slowed a body down to agelessness then is it going to change sufficiently to be able to bear a child?

Do the children of the wise ones grow up to be wise ones/go to fight trollocs in the blight? This would answer the genetic question, as the WOs do hunt out all girls that can be taught.

Have fun at JordanCon everyone who's going, I'll be at the Flame Off in Towcester so am happy for there to ba a little hiatus.
Alex Wahlgren
141. Black-Veiled_Alex
Heres a random off topic question. If everyone is reborn then whats the point of being tied to the wheel?
142. Browncoat Jayson
Randalator @100 (& others)

Channeling cannot be a genetic condition. From everything we've seen, your soul and your body are always male (or female), without variance. Birgette is always female, is always born soon after Gaidal, who is always a man. Yes? Then how can a re-incarnated Balthamel channel saidin in a female body? The body cannot contain the genetic condition to channel the male half.

Plus, shields (and severing) is a thing of Spirit; it is a cutting/blocking of the soul. Not a physical condition. You cannot sever a channeler's ability with Air or Fire, only with Spirit.

So the ability to channel goes with the soul; if you can channel in one life, you can channel in another (although you may never learn how).
143. hoping to be of the blood
Please see #45 and words from the creator. It sounds as if he modified his view from his original thoughts.
144. Dreamwolf
142. Browncoat Jayson

According to Birgitte there is a distinct difference between being bound to the wheel and not. Those souls who are bound to the wheel, including LTT are always rebirthed in bodies of the same sex. Thus implying that the same is not always the fact for everyone else.

On a meta level, Robert Jordan has said in interviews that, despite liking him, he would not go down the same road as John Varley, a SF author who frequently lets his heroes / heroines switch gender in story.
Marie Adomako
145. MSedai
Hmm, I think there is a lot of weirdness in the explanation of whether channeling is related to the soul or to genetics.

Browncoat Jason @142, I really agree with your point, but culling has been explained by RJ himself as a genetic phenomenon, so where does this leave us?

htbotb @45 has it:
RJ addressed the culling theory in his blog.

"...while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark."

Although, it could still be genetic and still be tied to the soul, since not everybody's soul gets recycled, there would be enough bodies to go around that had the genetic component, even with culling. (This would lead us on a merry-go-round where all channelers born today are recycled souls...) As for the female body channeling saidin, maybe the half of the power you channel has more to do with your soul (e.g. souls are male/female, and the body is usually chosen to match) than the body. The body would just need to be able to touch the OP, and have sufficient strength through its "genetics," but the body doesn't care about which half you are touching.
146. CireNaes
@142 Browncoat Jayson
Your soul is keyed to which half of the source you can touch. Your body will just have a certain amount of the channeling gene. Call them 'midichlorians' if you will. So you are right on with the use of spirit severing the connection between your soul and the source, but it does this by jacking up the bridge between your soul and body. So this would be why Balthamel uses Saidin. It's also why Lanfear is weaker than she was before being placed in her new body. Her soul is very strong when it comes to channeling, but without a body that can handle what she can draw from the Source then her souls potential goes to waste. Think of a channelers body as their own personal angreal buffer. The Dark One only had a body with a weaker 'midichlorian' level so Lanfear got the shaft. Probably because the DO used the strongest female body It had on reserve to get Balthamel paired up properly so s/he could utilize s/he full soul potential. This is also why healing someone requires more than just spirit. You have to rebridge the gap between the bodies 'midichlorians'' and the soul. This is why Nyneave's style of healing worked since she uses all five in her weaves.
147. bookworm
@146 CireNaes.

Can't agree. Lanfear got the shaft, in my opinion, because she was preyed upon by one of the Finn groups. I think she killed herself before they could suck more of the ability out of her, knowing that the DO would bring her back. Becoming Cyndane just wasn't quite what she had in mind.
148. CireNaes
@bookworm 147

Possible, but that's giving a ton of credit to the Finn to be able to do that to one of the Forsaken who would know the 'rules' about how to cheat them. Rand held them off with just his sword. I think it's more likely that Moiraine snapped her neck Ninja style, but dosnt know how to get out of Finn land so she needs rescuing. Where as Lanfear just gets recycled. To each his own and we'll both find out in AMoL.
Amar Ramraj
149. aiel1219
hey all... Thanks to the pplwho shared their losses and grief with us... I know its a hard thing to do. I am originally from a 3rd world country where politically motivated violence was rampant(I'll not say which since I'm still very afraid). I lost 2 brothers about 13 years ago and there was a possibility of loosing my younger brother and my dad at the time. And I remember exactly how that felt and every tear my mom shed and me being little more than a child trying to be her strength... I'm just glad that my 10 year old sisters were born in the U.S. after we were able to get out of that horribble place. This homecoming chapter often brings back those memories and even Rj being a former soldier makes me think about what my older brothers may have done with their lives had the not been lost. And I do have a friend who lived with us for about 16 years who lost his entire family and was himself crippled when he was 8 and I remember every detail of his pain as well.

I'm always amazed at how a fantasy like this can touch me and others as well. Thankyou for sharing you stories, it made me think alot about how I'm not the only one who has suffered through this and I even called Marcus (my friend I talked about) after mb 8 months because of u guys.

Aww dangit... I promised myself I wouldn't get all mushy abt this chapter again.

On a side note... I read a few re-reads back abt someone... I think it was Rikka... wanting to leave the U.S. as soon as she can... just be careful of where you go because, as a person who has lived in alot of places, I can tell you, the rest of the world isn't as great as it may seem. But you should see it if you can do that safely.
I personally am happy that I am a U.S. citizen(for 6 years now) and 6 years ago was one of the best days of my life. My job now takes me around the world for months at a time, but I always look forward to going home to my little house in Brooklyn.

EDIT: Ihave not been eveywhere in thr world... and I am sure many other places are wonderful... I personally enjoyed my time in London and Paris... so please please... noone take this as a criticism of where you live.
And I was gonna edit this post to oblivion...but... I just couldn't, knowing how hard it must've been fo those others to sharetheir stories, I just hop that me sharing mine gave you atleast a small bit of comfort as yours did for me... NOW WNOUG OF THE MUSHY STUFF FROM ME!!! I MEAN IT... I promise
150. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Papas @101
Alanna helps Rand because it is the only way he will allow her to come close to him.

UncrownedKing @102
I've actually thought about it. Rather than send them alone into the blight the Wise Ones could conceivably send them to Caemlyn. They'd certainly be an asset. I don't know the warrior societies would work it out. Maybe they'd be cast out and make a new society of their own. As for the training, they'd have to participate in sword practice. Not that they'd actually have to learn, even Taim's asha'man don't learn properly. Nothing about actually touching or carrying a real sword, even. They'd probably make do with long daggers or knives.

GatheringStorm @111
Still good math. Alivia's 400 because she hasn't sworn on the Oath Rod. And she looks just this side of being past child bearing age, so you'll probably have to redo it again for those outside of the White Tower.

That Guy @119
The BFG is a WMD. I figure Callandor would be the Rocket launcher or super shotgun and the fat man would be the shotgun.
As for Cadsuane finding Rand through Alanna, Cads is overrated. If Rand were still rational he wouldn't really need her advice. As it is, he gets very little input from her anyway.

Samadai @124
Semirhage could probably heal Rand's hand back or know how to make a prosthesis, depending on how such problems are dealt with in the AOL. They could chain her with an a'dam while she's doing it.

u_turnagain @130
Maybe the stated goal of the Red is not the actual goal. A smokescreen. We know them by their deeds. And everytime a Red gains the Amyrlin Seat, their focus has been establishing their rule over the nations and systematically eliminating those who could challenge their power. Tetsuan betrayed Eldrene and Mannetheren, Bonwhin challenged Hawkwing, and Elaida tried to get her hands on Rand.
Amar Ramraj
151. aiel1219
I actually did a flash read of the books a few days ago to find out whether Ileyna Sunhair (yes that is her last name apparently) could channel and I didn't find anything that suggested she could... but nothing said she couldn't either.... anyone found anything interesting??

@those ppl thinking that the body/genetics has nothing to do with channeling...
Osan'gar would have thought the Myrddraal's bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was
impossible, here or anywhere. Even Trollocs had a sense of humor, if a vile and violent one, but not Myrddraal.
"You were both given the best that could be taken in the Borderlands." Its voice was a viper rustling in dry grass, "It is a fine body, strong and healthy. And better than the alternative."

this I thnk shows that the body/ genetics has something to do with the ability to touch the OP.
Also makes me wonder abt the "alternative"... is it simply not being reborn or something a bit more interesting??? THoughts??

Abt Elaida "tyring" to get her hands on Rand...a bit of an understatement... seing as how sisters acting on her orders locked him in a box and tortured him... probably ensuring that he makes sure the Red Ajah is dead if he has anything to say about it in the next age... which I think he "just might".
152. pooping eagle
Leigh, I can only thank you. I have read through the series half a dozen times, and I'm utterly amazed at the things in the story that I never put together. Thanks for doing my thinking for me.
Richard Fife
153. R.Fife
@152 Leigh is our borg queen? I'm down with that.

Nothing else to add at this point, prolly cause I'm too tired.
154. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
aiel1219 @150
Well yes, my unabridged thought was that she tried to break Rand until I decided to tone it down.
Alice Arneson
155. Wetlandernw
77. hoping to be of the blood
95. bookworm

Re: Dancing with the stars

Since people aren't posting fast and furiously today, I had to feed my addiction by reading RJs blog, and this caught my attention:

I want some dances, the tango, the rumba, the cha-cha, that you just can’t fake. And not that Dancing with the Stars baloney, either. That is strangely entertaining, one might saying weirdly entertaining, much like a train wreck involving Borat and Rush Limbaugh in clown makeup, but in most cases, the dances they do have no resemblance whatsoever to the dances they claim to be. Let them take their so-called tango to Argentina. And see if they can get out of the country alive.

Just a few words from Himself on the subject. ;)
Amar Ramraj
156. aiel1219
I think mb Mr. Jordan may have been a little behind the times regarding "dancing with the stars" because I spent several months jumping between 6 different South American countries and in that time I found that alot of the ppl there (I may dare to say most of the ppl I interacted with) actually enjoyed watching the show and enjoyed seeing the various adaptions of their dances... however there were a few who thought it was utter rubbish.... but that was a huge minority... WOW!!! how on earth did I end up talkin abt dancing with the stars... :S
Amar Ramraj
157. aiel1219
"And I is done. Have a lovely week, peoples, and I will be back next week with vim and vigor and maybe some spicy fun JordanCon extras for all y’all. Cheers!"

I personally hope it's more than some extras... I wanna hear all da juicy details u can cram into a post... I have been tryin to campaign for a post on "Leigh's adventures @ JordanCon"... but sadly my campaign was never able to find a firm foothold in our little community.... but mb u'll just do it to please me LOL!!! (quite selfcentered am I not?)
158. MadMardigan
@151 The soul is the key to channeling - Bethamel still channels saidin although in a female body following his resurrection. Doesnt rule out the possibility of a physical trait that allows channeling, but I think it makes it much less likely...
159. explopyro
I'm pretty sure I recall her full name being given at one point as Ilyena Therin Moerelle (I think it was in one of the scenes where Rand is reciting the list of dead women in his head).

I've always wondered if Ilyena was or wasn't a channeller also - as far as I've been able to tell there is no evidence either way in any of the books. On the other hand, how much do we really know about Ilyena anyway? I can't remember us getting very much information about her at all, aside from her name, her hair colour, and various comments from Lews Therin's voice that don't really reveal anything...
Alice Arneson
160. Wetlandernw
156. aiel1219

I take no credit. :) It was from his blog post November 2006. Having never actually watched the show, or seen more than a few minutes of it once or twice, I really can't comment. But since I was reading the blog, and it had come up yesterday/today, it was just too good to pass up. Even if it is off topic.

Oh, and RJ was BIG on things that make points with the wife. He made no bones about doing things that aren't particularly his "thing" if it made her happy. He even commented once that to him, the worst thing about dying was that it would leave her to deal with the aftermath, and he really hated that idea. So "hoping to be of the blood", you're in good company!
Aidan Young
161. aidanyoung1102
@152 My vote is pooping eagle is the best name of all of the readers. Thoughts?

@159 Regarding Ilyena: I doubt she channeled. Every other character that can channel in the entire WOT, it has always been mentioned specifically.

Put it on another character: "I wonder if Weiramon can channel? It never said he couldn't..."

I think this particular line of questioning is probably not going to yield anything.

Regarding Semirhage, Therava's Oath Rod works on Galina so it stands to reason that it would work on one of the Forsaken. For all of their "immortality" they are just as human as the rest of the characters in that regard. It would be awesome to get Semi under oath and then use her skills. We will see in AMOL...

On another note, I agree very much about the Shaido chase being very long and boring, but I think a couple of good things come of it.

1) It's pretty much the end of the Shaido problem.

2) Savannha gets captured. Finally. Talk about an annoying character!

3) I personally LOVE when bad guys like Galina get totally hosed. KoD had at least two of these awesome moments. The other was with Suroth at the end.

4) I think that Perrin's mutual respect with Tylee is going to aid in Rand's alliance with the Seanchan.
Amar Ramraj
162. aiel1219
I think I'd have to agree with most of yer comments abt the shaido thingy...
not sure if the Shaido problem is completely resolved... but otherwise Yeah!
I loved it when the BA/Red sister(I forgot her name) gets her comeuppance(is that a word n if so how do u spell it.. I think it is) at the hands of the Shaido and their tortures (very creative btw... not as creative or funny as smearing a mans testicles with milk n honey n havinn a goat nibble on em...but hey it'll do) LOL!!! ok... torture is a debate that should be quite interesting when we get there ...oooohhh am soooo looking forward to that.

And did anyone else notice how Moiraine's lil stay in the Two Rivers changed em so much.... they would've probably kicked the Aes Sedai out (or tried real hard) b4 but after good old Mo the Women's Circle actually protected Verin n Allana!!!
Mo RULES!!! YAY!!!
Kevin Morgan
163. DrMorganstien
I would just like to add my sincere thanks to everyone who has let us in on their own personal horror stories. I am currently involved in a family tragedy myself, though thankfully not a loss, and am having a similar difficulty finding the time/willpower to get a lot of stuff done, and distractions do really help. This place has been a big help and welcome source of both humor and intelligence to keep my mind occupied. Thank you all for that.

R. Fife....I'm glad someone said it

BFG...ahh the good ol' days

"Hello, My name is Gawyn Trakand, you killed my Mother, prepare to die." Had to say it

Whoever had the Cain/Abel idea, I like where your head's at. I wouldn't be surprised if Taim goes on a campaign to hurt Rand like Fain did, once Taim goes full on Dreadlord. He would thus have a reasonable motive go go biblical on Mr. Cauthon.

The channeling thing: genetics versus souls. Its clearly a combination of both. I think we get enough info to understand that the trends are going the way they are. Also, Lanfear's reduced channeling to me does seem to be a result of a 'Finn issue, not a rebirth. She recalls her time being held by them and intimates that the two are related. I think the 'Gars and Cyndane get better bodies based on age and physical priorities (fitness and attractiveness).
164. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
"Hello, My name is Gawyn Trakand, you killed my Mother, prepare to die."

I can already imagine how the others would react.

Elayne: You bloody oaf, how could you think that?

Egwenne: Gawyn, you woolhead, you promised.

Galad: Don't be daft, of course he's caused lots of trouble, but kill our mother he certainly did not.

Rand: You're right. I let your mother die. I as good as killed her myself. I am prepared to die.
165. Confutus
@106 Lannis

Bornhald did indeed notice the condition of the Whitecloaks under Fain's command.

"My compliments to Master Ordeith, Byar, and, --No! No compliments. Tell him, in these words, that I will have his scrawny bones before me now. Tell him, Byar, and bring him if you must arrest him and those filthy wretches who disgrace the Children. Go."

He also notices that the men he sends to watch what Ordeith is doing have a highly suspicious tendency to be the only ones killed by Trollocs on Ordeith's forays. However, he is also under orders from Pedron Niall to support Fain's mission, and has his own (badly misinformed) reasons for wanting to capture Perrin. So he sees the red flags, but presses on anyway.
Don't he and Byar survive to become some of Galad's supporters when he confronts Eamon Valda?
Amar Ramraj
166. aiel1219
Just to backup or reiterate...or whatever the point 163. DrMorganstien made abt Lanfear's Op capacity being lessened by the Finns... here's a quote I came across in one of my flash reads some time back... dunno y I remember it "She was stronger than
Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be
stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

This has made me wonder how could the Finns do this and what else did they do??? Did they make Mo stronger... can she match out new lanfear's strength???... btw the new Lanfear seems to be stronger than the other female forsaken.... even though she lost some power... I quoted from the books in a previous reread to justify this.
167. GregoryD
My take on the Aes Sedai having children thing.

I think it is simply a matter of selfishness. They don't have kids because it would disrupt their lives too much. Who would take care of the little snots while the AS are doing the all important work of being know-it-alls? They go out into the world and are involved in causes, etc. etc. The same reason priests don't marry. They are married to the Lord, supposedly. Aes Sedai are dedicated to the White Tower and all that it implies. They even say so in their initiation cerimonies, right? "You are separated to the Tower, now" or some such nonsense. And since most of them don't appear to be too horny, they find they do not really need men, except for warders if the need arises.
Amar Ramraj
168. aiel1219
On a side note...(we do have a whole week) I've been wondering about something... what is the Aiel stand on...eerrrmmm...pillow friends... and what do they call em..... I really don't feel like going tru 6 or 7 books to find out... mb someone knows??
Alice Arneson
169. Wetlandernw
163. DrMorganstien

In the middle of any tragedy, don't lose your sense of humor, and don't feel guilty if something hits you funny. You need it, and laughter can give you the "deep breath" effect you need to keep going. Whatever it is, hang in there. (I distinctly remember sitting around over breakfast, the morning of my sister's funeral, CRACKING UP telling stories about her. She was one funny gal, and it was totally appropriate to remember her that way. And it helped us all get through the day...)

RFife from way back at #22: "Ah don't care who ya are - thet's funny!"
170. gagecreedlives

"Don't he and Byar survive to become some of Galad's supporters when he confronts Eamon Valda?"

They most certainly did. And I believe they are roughly heading towards Perrin and friends too.

So you'll have a Galad/Morgase reunion and a Perrin/Bornhold reunion.

Fun times.
Ofer Nave
171. odigity
I'm late to the party - just got here. In fact, I'm still reading Leigh's recap. I just finished her story about her father's death, and immediately thought of an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer that captured this perfectly ( I did a quick search for 'buffy' on the page to see if anyone else had mentioned it, and surprisingly (I'm sure there are many Buffy fans here, including Leigh, I think) it wasn't. So I'm mentioning it now.

Ok, back to the top to finish the reread.
172. birgit
Speaking of children of parents who can channel, I like the way RJ is heading with the children of Maud'dib Rand and Elayne. I can only begin to imagine the kind of badassery that will come from that union, assuming of course that, "His blood on the rocks" is not referring to his lineage AKA children...

If Elayne gives birth on Shayol Ghul, does that count as his blood on the rocks?

Agree that Semirhage could do it, the question is will anyone figure out that she can?

LTT should know what was possible in the AOL and what talents / professions the Forsaken had.

Does the Shadow know of Fain/Mordeth's double nature and that is why they send the double Luc/Isam to hunt him?
Helen Peters
173. Helen
But Lanfear and Balthamel weren't reborn as such, just placed into new bodies that had been taken in the blight.

Which side of the genetics argument does that support?
174. Randalator
Browncoat Jayson @142

Channeling cannot be a genetic condition.

Yes it can, because RJ said so.

From everything we've seen, your soul and your body are always male (or female), without variance. Birgette is always female, is always born soon after Gaidal, who is always a man. Yes? Then how can a re-incarnated Balthamel channel saidin in a female body? The body cannot contain the genetic condition to channel the male half.

The gender of the soul is decisive for the specific half of the Power a channeler can touch. The genetic predisposition is crucial for a channelers soul being able to touch the True Source in the first place.

Plus, shields (and severing) is a thing of Spirit; it is a cutting/blocking of the soul. Not a physical condition. You cannot sever a channeler's ability with Air or Fire, only with Spirit.

Yeah and Nynaeve Heals Logain with Spirit and Fire. That clearly indicates a physical condition. Apart from the fact that RJ said so.

So the ability to channel goes with the soul; if you can channel in one life, you can channel in another (although you may never learn how).

Unless you are born in a body without the genetic predisposition.

The soul's channeling ability is like someone with a driver's licence. The licence is useless when you're sitting in a car without an engine. You still know how to operate the vehicle in theory but you will get nowhere because the vehicle is not a running condition. Just like a channeler's soul gets nowhere without the right body.

Again: Channeling is both tied to the soul and to genetics. Only if both requirements (a channeler's soul + a channeler's body) are met will the respective person be able to channel.
175. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
aiel1219 @166
As I've noted before, Moiraine would need a considerable boost just to come close to Lanfear. Something in the order of 3 1/2 to 4 times. Even then, that's no guarantee of victory should there be a confrontation, as Lanfear's performance against an angreal-enhanced Alivia shows.
As for the Aiel stance on pillow friends, I think they're called nearsisters. :P
Ofer Nave
176. odigity
R.Fife@2: I'm with ya leigh, its a cool idea, but the grander scope of what's being said is kind of, um, odd when you "strip away concepts".. by the Light, did I really just quote Odigity's video?

Hey, I agree. :)

lmelior@43: Aha! A decisive blow all you emacs users out there, for Leigh is one of us!

pico/nano FTW! (it's the notepad of unix)

IanGH@57: Perhaps this is a stretch but I've felt the end of an Age seems to come about when unseen strains of society break into the open. For the Age of Legends, it was mankind's arrogance that they could challenge the creator and break down the barriers between men and women. Oops, we accidentally let the Dark One out.

So, the bore/breaking is the Tower of Babel, but with gender lines instead of language lines?

Artsapat@93: Do you think the phallus symbol of the White Tower is intentional

Sorry, pet peeve: Not every long object is a phallic symbol. The tower (and skyscrapers) is shaped that way because gravity confines us to a horizontal plane (basically), and building upwards allows us to add a third dimension to our usable space. Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I would amend that to say a cigar is nearly *always* a cigar.

UncrownedKing@102: Are we going to see any Aiel Ash'a'man? I mean common, they could be the Marine Recon Unit of the Light (Aiel Asha'man Unit of the Light AAUL). You can't tell me thats not the most awesome thing ever concieved by a man? Aiel all in Black Cadinsor (wow sp?) with a dragon and a spear pin on their collar. Running, scouting, channeling, and destorying all enemies in their path.

Holy jumping jehosaphat with a twizzle stick! Why didn't I ever think of that? That's the kind of awesome that goes to 11.

That Guy@119: I think what I would like more would be a Loial POV. I can't recall if we ever get one, but I am pretty sure that we don't.

We do in KoD, when he gets married, and it's one of the greatest treats in the book (among many).

alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed@164: "Hello, My name is Gawyn Trakand, you killed my Mother, prepare to die."

Elayne: You bloody oaf, how could you think that?

Egwenne: Gawyn, you woolhead, you promised.

Galad: Don't be daft, of course he's caused lots of trouble, but kill our mother he certainly did not.

Rand: You're right. I let your mother die. I as good as killed her myself. I am prepared to die.

Hilarious. I would only add:

Morgase: I'm not quite dead yet!

gagecreedlives@170: "Don't he and Byar survive to become some of Galad's supporters when he confronts Eamon Valda?"

They most certainly did. And I believe they are roughly heading towards Perrin and friends too.

Actually, it's worth noting that Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all very near each other in Northern Altara at the end of KoD, all having just participated in Seanchan related situations-

Arg! I promised I myself I wouldn't talk about KoD till we got there! Grrr.

Also, this was somewhat explained above by various posters, but never quite fully, so I'll just mention - the White Tower is the city government of Tar Valon. They tax the residents, and use the money to give each Aes Sedai a 1000 gold crown annual stipend, starting the day they are raised to the shawl (as shown with Moiraine and Suian in New Spring). Their fancy dresses are paid for with gold taken by force from poor, hard-working folks. (Just like in the real world!)
177. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
odigity @176
I kinda figured some of their gold would come from the taxes of the city. But that can't be all of it. Come on, can you imagine a city-state the size of Tar Valon being able to support with taxes alone its upkeep AND some 300 odd high and mighty sisters acting (and presumably spending) like nobles? They must have other sources of income.
178. bookworm
The Aes Sedai also control the area around the White Tower, the four small towns at the bridges, nearby farms and estates. Taxable income to be had there. They could tax the trade coming in (and out) of their ports (they import quite a bit, I'd imagine). Heck, maybe kingdoms pay retainers out to have Aes Sedai advisers?
Blake Engholm
179. UncrownedKing
@176 Ogidity
"Holy jumping jehosaphat with a twizzle stick! Why didn't I ever think of that? That's the kind of awesome that goes to 11."

SPINAL TAP! awesome
"Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? "
180. Randalator
bookworm @178

You're right.

And as I already said in comment 100, they most likely make money through lawyer/negotiator services, Healing, Warder training (there must be a lot of nobles send there like Gawyn/Galad), etc.
On top of that they own Tar Valon which means they probably get paid rent by every inhabitant of the island.

Also I just remembered that they mint their own coins. So they seem to be in the banking business, too.

All in all I don't see why they should have any financial problems at all.
181. laframboise
By way of idle speculation, perhaps the 'Finns, who seem to get sustenance or satisfaction or somesuch from rummaging around people's minds, find some mental component of channeling ability, or knowledge, to be an extra tasty snack? Maybe Lanfear's Forsaken is like a morsel of dark chocolate to them, and they can't help nibbling at it?
Ofer Nave
182. odigity
laframboise@181: Maybe Lanfear's Forsaken is like a morsel of dark chocolate to them, and they can't help nibbling at it?

So you're saying Lanfear is yummy? No argument here. (Don't let her talk you into handcuffs, though.)
183. BlacksmithButNotEmo
DocMorg@163: Took me a minute, but "Princess Bride"...

...not helping me take Gawyn any more seriously. In which of the next three books do we get the dubious treat of the Gawyn/Egwene reunion/warder bonding? I'm hoping for AMoL-2, so it doesn't pollute Gathering Storm.
Blake Engholm
184. UncrownedKing
@183 BlacksmithbutnotEmo

I think it is in LoC or CoS that Ewg gets back with Gawyn. Theres no bonding involved however.

ps Nice name
185. Samadai
Since we have a whole week to go I propose a new topic. Who killed Asmodean?
186. Samadai
just kidding
187. Randalator
UncrownedKing @184

Egwene had a Dream of her bonding Gawyn and asked him in LoC to become her Warder once she is Aes Sedai. That is the pending reunion of doom (a.k.a. the PRoD) the non-mopey Blacksmith was referring to and hasn't occured yet.

Samadai @185

Bela. Next question.
Galen Brinn
188. GatheringStorm
Samadai @185

Bela. Next question.

LMAO. ROFLMAO! HFS, I can't stop laughing!

Min had a viewing that Gawyn would either break Egwene's neck or be her warder (or something else that's not as violent as the first). I agree with BlacksmithButnotEmo in that I hope that mass of serious lameness doesn't contaminate The Gathering Storm
189. Samadai
(Standing in the corner covered in rotten fruit and vegetables) "I'm sorry so sorry"
Ofer Nave
190. odigity
Samadai@185: Since we have a whole week to go I propose a new topic. Who killed Asmodean?

Obviously. Bela is the DO's avatar, and RJ did write "death took him".
Galen Brinn
191. GatheringStorm
Samadai, it looks like you've stepped in the poop pile, with both feet!

192. Siuanfan
Re: Nynaeve using Fire in healing Logain

Did anyone else get a funny mental picture of Nynaeve wearing welder's goggles, trying to patch a connecting bridge between Log and saidin?

Also, Verin killed Asmodean. I don't know why or how, but I do know that it's awesome.
Blake Engholm
193. UncrownedKing
Bela can't be the DO

I think we have forgotten something people. Bela is the creator made flesh and Shaddar Harran is the DO made flesh.

So in the final battle many things will happen, many different throwdowns:

-Darkhounds vs. wolves adv=darkhounds
-Rand vs Fain adv=Fain because everytime they meet Rand refuses to use the power.
-Logain vs Taim adv=logain (callandor duh!)
-Elayne,Min, Aviendah vs Lanfear, Mog, graendal adv= supergirls
-Ewg vs Semy adv=i dont care really
-Lan Perrin vs Luc/isam/slayer adv = Its Lan and Perrin ... duh
-Ashaman vs bad Ashaman
-Aes Sedai vs Black Ajah Adv= probably good guys
-Mat & BoRH & Seanchan vs the Trolloc Horde adv=Mat and Co. bc of his mad awesomeness
-Aiel Ashaman Unit of Light vs the rest of the forsaken adv= AAUL, bc you cannot stop that much badass. Cant do it.

But the most important battle of all will be Bela and all her shining glory vs Shaddar Harran in a fight to the death. its Hooves on Steele in a ole fashioned beat down.

This is my crack-pot theory. Let the vegetable launching begin
Blake Engholm
194. UncrownedKing
I knew it was VERIN!!!! Sneaky AS, very sneaky
195. Samadai
But Bela was in Salidar causing hate and dissension among the SAS.
196. happi
Wow - it's only Wed - can you imagine what this blog will be like by next Monday? Insanity will rule!
197. Samadai

now I have that image, thanks haven't laughed that hard in long time. My coworkers were all staring at me.
Galen Brinn
198. GatheringStorm
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that in one of his posts, Brandon Sanderson indicated that the truth of Asmodean's killing would come out (somewhere) in AMoL...

But I still love the "Bela Theory"!
199. That Guy
alreadymad @150

Disagree on the BFG being a WMD, it has a nice blast radius, but it doesn't level cities without effort.

odigity @176

Forgot about that, I've only read KoD once and that was 4 years ago. I really need to do a re-read also.
Chiara Elvira
200. elvyelvy
Randalator, you do have a wicked sense of humour. Almost toppled from my chair, everybody was staring at me, answering the phone AND grinning like a dumb idiot.
BELA (oh sorry, I can't stop snickering and giggling) stout BELAhahahahaha.

Ahem, more serious, now. Nynaeve with OP-wrought supergoggles welding Logain?
"Hey, you girl, watch where you are directing THAT ray!!!! be CAREFUL!!!!" (*laughing out loud and being stared at*)

laframboise&odigity Lanfear as dark choco morsel with handcuffs? That’s what I call living dangerously….
BTW odigity, "Holy jumping jehosaphat with a twizzle stick!" is fabulous, purely fab!!!
I MUST add it to my repertoire, please please please.

Poor Leigh, next week she’s going to find the Bela theory, the Verin theory (btw some blamed Asmo’s killing on Sammael or Graendal) some vegetable throwing and a disrupted blog!!!
Oh, well, she's having fun @JordanCon...
Chris Maurer
201. grayfox
I believe the "Bela theory" has been around for quite awhile, hasn't it? (I was an occasional lurker on the newsgroup, but never posted)

Its still hilarious to me every time it comes up though.
Galen Brinn
202. GatheringStorm
I wasn't around on the news groups but I remember seeing the "Bela Theory" around somewhere a long time ago. It's still a LMAO moment to read it and think about it, even after all this time.
Luke M
203. lmelior
200 comments and so few *nix nerds. Tsk tsk.

@ elvyelvy
You are forgiven, for you recognized some nerdiness was going on. You just vastly underestimated it. My favorite salvo (even though I'm a vim user) is still this:

The Church of Emacs ... refers to vi as the "editor of the beast" (vi-vi-vi being 6-6-6 in Roman numerals)

I agree the Bela theory has been around for a while, and it's still funny. I can't say I've heard the Verin theory, which is very interesting.
204. bookworm
DCLXVI. Latin geek.

My main work software (on XP) uses an emacs command window. Fortunately, in this incarnation, I don't have to keep emacs command syntax in my head anymore.

Was Verin anywhere near Caemlyn when Asmo bought the farm? (I can't remember).

I can't wait until we get to Asmo's demise so we can unleash our pet theories upon each other. Thick-skinned theorists only need apply.
Sacha G
205. Fortune_Prick_Me
Hi all!

Ahh Bela... the Shaidar Haran of the Light. The Hoof of the Light. The Creator's Mane, the Neigh of the Morning, the One who comes with the Hay.

Like those six-toed cats of Emonds Field... Maybe Book 12-15 will pull a BSG style ending with a look at "Adamsfeld" with a statue of a rearing horse...

Here's some goodies to keep us less than half-starved during JordanCon:

An oldie but goodie:
Dark Ones Dictionary

Faile instills fear in 8-bit form:
8-bit Rand

Already posted once, but it's just awesomesauce:
The True WOT

Narg and Bela linked to kill Asmo...
206. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Samadai @195
On the contrary, she was helping Egwene and Siuan consolidate Egwenne's authority. Wasn't her fault the Aes Sedai were uncooperative.
207. bookworm
Narg. That reminds me of the old CCG. I knew some players who created their own "Narg, King of the Trollocs" card. Plus, they traded everyone they could find to get as many Narg cards as they could (which was quite a few).

I think they're microbiologists somewhere today.
Blake Engholm
208. UncrownedKing
One of the greatest questions of our time......

Who was Narg? Who taught Narg to talk?
209. Siuanfan
We'll see a Bela icon before this series is done!
Blake Engholm
210. UncrownedKing
Have/Will we see a LTT POV? I think that would be either extremely interesting, or completely and utterly confusing.
211. bookworm
IIRC, all Trollocs speak the same language as everyone else. They just don't normally communicate with humans.

Upcoming, the attack by Isam's Trollocs and Myrrdraal on Emond's Field, where a great roaring cheer of "ISAM!" is heard across the battlefield.
212. bookworm
Sorry for two posts in a row, but Brandon just posted an update to his blog where he mentioned that Gathering Storm has 21 PoVs.


Let the guessing begin.
213. That Guy
On healing stilling.

Has anyone considered that perhaps we are incorrect on the men have to heal women and women have to heal men?

Ny uses fire to heal Logain, after carefully probing and thinking about what is missing. After, when she gets called out and has to "just do it," she is pissed and just does what she did with Logain, not really feeling it out like she had before.

So, since men are stronger with Fire and Earth, and Women are stronger with Air and Water, what if she simply used the wrong element to fix them? Maybe Suian needed Water and Leane needed Air.

By using Fire, she did successfully re-establish the connection, but it's like she hooked them back up to the channeling network that should run at a gig with a NIC that can only pull 10 meg.
214. bookworm
Yin/yang balance. So, no I have rejected that either gender can Heal severing of their own gender very well.
Galen Brinn
215. GatheringStorm
I tend to agree that Healing stilling is/was a yin-yang type deal for it to be fully effective. Granted, all we've got is anecdotal evidence with Siuan, Leane and Logain, but does anyone know if the TAS (stilled at the end of LoC) that are Healed by Ashaman were Healed back to full strength?
216. Siuanfan
An Alise POV? Romanda and Lelaine? Aram? (has there been an Aram one yet?) Let's see, who else... The Dark One? I'm guessing we'll be treated to a Moiraine POV again, and um... Maybe a Tam!

Hey, about Lanfear... does anyone else think she's not *really* Shadow evil but more like Elaida evil, but to a higher extent? The chick loves power, so she figures... you get more power by not playing fair, the Shadow doesn't play fair so chances are you get more power/influence by hanging with his crew, but she could give a fig's knuckle about the Dark One becoming SUPREME OVERLORD MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE (aw hell, now the Dark One is forever going to look like Skeletor in my mind), she just wants to rule as much of it as she can get her hands on.

And speaking of Shaidar Haran, what's up with him? Weren't Myrddraal creepy enough without bringing King of the Myrddraal into it?

And speaking of unnecessary people, what's up with books 8-11? Weren't all the main characters doing enough random stuff without bringing all these others into it? Windfinders, Kin, Salidar AS, Tower AS, Red Ajah, Black Ajah, Aes Sedai who might be in the Tower but are really spies FROM Salidar, AND possibly Black Ajah... damane, ex-damane, suldam, secret Darkfriends, open Darkfriends, Shaido Wise Ones, real Wise Ones, AND recycled Forsaken?! Wtf, RJ, I'm not a computer!

And why the hell does Amathera keep showing up? Why won't Morgase go away? You're not Queen anymore, why are you still taking up space in my mental WoT files? As a matter of fact, why were you there in the first place?

And speaking of Black Ajah. Galina Casban. Sux to be her, eh? Eh? Hehehe.
Alice Arneson
217. Wetlandernw
213. That Guy, et al on the healing of stilling:

From the Robert Jordan October 2005 blog,

...the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective. A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration. It all ties into that theme I keep harping on. Men and women have to work together to be their most effective. And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.
Luke M
218. lmelior
Fortune @205

Dark Lord: Stop that.


Dark Lord: Do not do impressions of me, Demandred. I am the Great Lord. Those who do impressions of me will die.


Dark Lord: I’ve never called Ishamael my favorite fancy pants boy.


Dark Lord: You cannot command me. I command you.


Dark Lord: I should have the big voice.



My sides hurt.
Agnes Kormendi
219. tapsi
Siuanfan @ 216

Aram died so unless the DO decides he needs to resurrect him as his special Tinker Forsaken, no Aram PoV's coming up...
220. That Guy
Wetlandernw @217

Thanks, I haven't read the blog, maybe I should read that too!

I had always originally thought that it was that way, but was thinking about it again after reading some of the earlier comments.
221. Randalator
Siuanfan @216

No we haven't had an Aram POV yet. And if we get one in The Gathering Storm it will be quite boring:

"Brains...must eat...brains...and walk very slowly...hello victim...yummy eat...first bite now...hey, my food be running fair...must find shopping mall..."

Being killed by Shaido arrows in the back does that to your POVs. Bad medicine.
222. Siuanfan
tapsi @ 219

Ah crap, I forgot about that.

Randalator - ROFL
223. WiseOne
Well aren't we all funny today. Ha no really I've kinda laughed a lot... good thing no one's watching.

I just wanted to add my two cents about the channeling being tied to soul or body or both. (Even though RJ has kinda explained it)

It seems to be both, and an example that I don't think anyone has used yet is when Moggie captures Ny in TAR and almost turns her into... a horse I think? And Ny is worried about this because she won't be able to channel in a horsie body.
I don't quite understand the gender-switch-and-still-be-able-to-channel thing though. Maybe I'll get an explanation on that later.
lanyo lanyo
224. lanyo

"And speaking of unnecessary people, what's up with books 8-11?"


also, 205 thanks for the reminders about the comics, and wheel of time by isam page.

what are you doing?
nothing. go light.
225. longtimefan
@181 Lanfear being like dark chocolate.

Doubtful, I would think that she would be unpleasant if not poisonous to the finn. There is the whole questions that touch the dark one are forbidden bit so would not a person not only touched by the dark lord but wholly devoted to it be double plus ungood?

I find the whole "Lanfear pretty, thinking bad." behavior in the books to be annoying but understandable since it is required for plot movement and in the beginning she was hiding her evil persona.

It is ridiculous for living people to treat a fictional character that way with the dark chocolate and handcuffs remark. It is clearly stated that she is entirely evil. If someone honestly knew a person was entirely evil but found them very attractive would they really go any where near them?

Conversely a similar joke about Tylin woud be fine. Tylin was not evil, just flirty and culturally dominant. Jokes about her with handcuffs would be in line with her character and questionable social interactions. I realize these are all fictional characters and I am getting a bit ranty about what was supposed to be a joke. (I do understand that) It is just that I do not find dangerous people fictional or real to be funny.

Jokes that encourage interactions with dangerous people just bother me.
226. Randalator
longtimefan @225

If someone honestly knew a person was entirely evil but found them very attractive would they really go any where near them?

Depends. Is that person good in bed?
Kevin Morgan
227. DrMorganstien
190@ odigity
Obviously. Bela is the DO's avatar, and RJ did write "death took him".


Bad Horse, Bad horse, Bad Horse, she's bad
She rides across TAR, the thoroughbred of sin...

And everyone here has been collectively making my sides hurt since my other post, classic stuff.
Maggie M
228. Eswana
bookworm @212
I just read that too and thought, wow what a great topic for the tor reread thread!

Since you brought it up, here's my list of the 21 POVs in Gathering Storm (I'm assuming everyone with a POV will be major character, no randoms).

The Good:
Rand, Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Avienda, Min, Cadsuane, Siuan, Moiraine, Faile, Galad, Berelain, Morgase, Logain

The Bad:
Moghedian, Fain, Alviarin

The Ugly:

229. wsean
@225 That's an... um... unusual perspective. I'm pretty confident Lanfear is no danger at all to any of the people posting on this blog.

Wait. Oh crap! What's that noise?! AAAARGHHH!

Sorry, false alarm, it wasn't her. No idea what Bela's doing sneaking around my office, but whatever.
Maggie M
230. Eswana
and since I can't count, I add that Alanna might be a good candidate for the 21st.
231. Samadai

those cartoons are hilarious. Ihave been laughing so hard my coworkers keep staring at me.

21 pov's holy hell
Alice Arneson
233. Wetlandernw
Oh, and 215. GatheringStorm:

Yes, the TAS healed by Flinn were restored to full strength. One of the other AS specifically says "it's like they'd never been stilled."

(Sorry, this was supposed to post like three hours ago and I forgot to hit Post. *sigh*)
Marie Adomako
234. MSedai

And yeah, what is up with books 8-11. I realized that the first time I read this series, I got exhausted about then, don't remember much of anything, and I still haven't gotten to them on my second re-read. (I started into this world two years ago is all...). After reading comments on this blog, I realized I had forgotten major plot developments that happen in those books, so I'm starting in again at WH to pick up where I lost the thread.
And speaking of scenes that make us teary-eyed, Elayne and Aviendha becoming first-sisters is right up there for me. Not quite on the same plane as Perrin's homecoming, but still intense.
Alice Arneson
235. Wetlandernw
RJ's blog:

For what it's worth, the blog (on is about WoT for the first 6 months or so, then goes mostly into efforts to keep his fans posted on his fight with amyloidosis, with side trips into WoT and the proper composition of gumbo. Oh, and Harleys. It's all good stuff, but if you got teary reading about Perrin's homecoming, you're gonna bawl your eyes out if you go past about March 2006.

Just so you can't say no one warned you...
236. Siuanfan
... I just read those things Fortune_Prick_Me linked to @ 205


Melaine: Sorilea, you must help me marry Bael.

Sorilea: I will give you the Offer Dagger, which you will use to stab him in the shoulder as a sign of your love.

Melaine: I hope he will club me with the Acceptance Club, which will show his acceptance of my offer.

Sorilea: Then you will whip him with the Joy Whip, which will show your joy,

Melaine: And he will pelt me with the Honeymoon Pebbles.

Sorilea: And eventually, you will attack him with the Childbirth Spear.

Melaine: Then we will all beat ourselves with the Moron Bat.

237. bookworm
@228 Eswana

RE: PoVs

What about Tarna/Pevara? Seaine and the Black Ajah hunters inside the White Tower?

Davram Bashere?

One Sea Folk, or another?

the Gholam? C'mon.


Demandred. If he's alive? (which I kind of question)


Rodel Ituralde?

One of the four Borderland sovereigns?


No to Galad, Berelain, Morgase, Moiraine, Aviendha, Suian, Moghedien, Ordeith/Fain.

This is so cool.
Sacha G
238. Fortune_Prick_Me

And newly introduced character Stoopide Maeriesue of Far Madding will sculpt a ter'angreal of FREEDOM that will cause all previous evil characters to break out in genital warts (which book was that again?) and weak willed protagonists to be molested by Red Ajah (sorry, Mord'Sith) bearing Oath Rods(sorry, whatever TG decided to call his Molester Rods...)

Go Light.


RJ's blog is a real testimony to the author's love of life and writing and courage. Love it.

On 21 POV's : Could Machin Shin get its own chapter? As in: Rend the flesh, plait the strips, so sweet the plaits.. So sweet being the only Mash..thingy left now that Aridhol is toast, so cold the ways, so.. so.. so damn lonely since no one comes here anymore!! Boohoo.
Chiara Elvira
240. elvyelvy
siuanfan, you got me laughing (again, this is a good day) but it is very late here, close to two am, and.... well, I woke up the shade of my heart, he grabbed the club of his hand and *OUCH*.....
I swear on the Giggling Rod that I will laugh aloud very silently from now on. Shade of my heart turned into Baton of my head.

"Demandred: Have I not done well, Great Lord?


(giggles very silently)
Richard Fife
241. R.Fife
oh, elvy, he didn't grab you by the scruff of your neck and... *ahem*

What were we talking about again?

Oh, I don't know if anyone /doesn't/ know yet, but this is probably of great interest to most of us here.
Sacha G
242. Fortune_Prick_Me
OK, R.Fife, the STDs were in Soul of the Fire. Kahlan's boobies make me think of the weird ads on the side bar, at least D. Sweet's covers refrained from crazily endowed Aes Sedai, thank the light.

or as RJ~aka Mat~ put it: impressive bosom, formidable bosom (for older ladies),or boyishly slim (for those non horizontally challenged Aes Sedai)
243. Siuanfan
Romanda: Who comes before the Hall?

Egwene: I am a woman.

Sheriam: I am a woman.

Anaiya: I am a woman.

Uno: I am a woman.


Okayokay... that was the last one, I promise!
244. longtimefan
My apologies. I was trying not to go to long in my rantyness and that kept me from explaining the difference between the metaphor and the idea.

The direct situation of Lanfear = dangerous person obviously cannot impact the people outside of the story. that would be the metaphor.

The Idea is that by humorously stating that if a pretty but known to be dangerous person would offer the possibility of sex (not even certain sex but the implication that it may happen and if it did it would be exactly what someone would want) a subconscious justification for putting oneself in danger gains a toe hold. Perhaps most people here have had less experience with truly dangerous people and I hope they never have to change that fact.

I am not going to go into my personal experience I just do not find that kind of humor working towards a balanced society.

Also YAY for 21 POVs

Hopefully they move the current plot threads forward and maybe even tie some up.

I would not rule out a minor character POV or two. There was the POV of the guy who followed Daved Hanlon and one for Daved himself.

Come to think of it there were a few minor/new character POVs around Caemlyn in Knife of Dreams.

I would vote for Rodel Ituralde as a certainty because the last book set up a big plan for Arad Doman and then left. One POV during or after his plan would be nice.
Kevin Morgan
245. DrMorganstien
So, before I hit the hayloft...I have a topic for discussion, which Leigh might miss since it is gender related.

Why do we never hear mention of women using the Flame/Void technique which is so vital to many of the men in the series? I believe Lan calls it the ko'di or something, sorry for my spelling, no books at hand. Correct me if I just missed the fact that I'm completely wrong but i can't recall any mentions to the contrary.
Alice Arneson
246. Wetlandernw
I always thought the rosebud thing the girls learn was the female equivalent of the men's flame & void thing. Not sure it's really the same, because women only learn it as a preparation for channeling, where men use it both for channeling and for fighting, but that's the way I saw it. FWIW.
Agnes Kormendi
247. tapsi
Probably women don't have separate techniques for fighting, as warfare seems to be the one field where gender roles are the same in Randland and our world... Women aren't really trained to fight as well as men (hmm, maybe Saldaeans do, but I don't recall Faile calming herself... like... ever? And though the women ride with their husbands, I don't think they ride into battle). And obviously Aiel are an exception, but I don't recall Aiel men using the flame/void technique, either.
248. gagecreedlives
Do we have a Birgitte PoV while she is using her bow?

If any of the girls would use the flame and the void it would probably be her.
Chiara Elvira
249. elvyelvy
Nononono, R.Fife, yet for a moment he might have considered that possibility (there was a glint to his eyes, ahem) but the hayloft (oops bed) held a stronger appeal. He left with a snort, shaking his head.
But if stares had hands....

Anybody knows how many WoT comics Dabel will print?
250. Herr_Flick
@tapsi #247

You forget the Seanchan. The female soldiers there probably learn the same techniques as the men.
Amar Ramraj
251. aiel1219
WOAH!!! some1 really takes evil sexy fantasy women seriously... sorry... I can't... guess there is enough ACTUAL evil out there for me to get all worked up abt this... or maybe I haven't been cuffed n mercilessly spanked more than a few times... NOT sayin that I have been... or am I...hmmmmmmm.... LOL!!!!....errrr sorry elvyelvy, I mean GVS (giggles very silently).... don't want u to get any more of the club of his hand or be the cause of anyone using the giggle rod.

I wonder... NE1 wanna take a stab at the Randland version of Yippie-kai-yay motherfucker!? I had proposed "Huzzaah, U flamin son of a goat!" Earlier... any creative minds out there care to...ummm.. try their spear?
(yeah I gotta work on my Aiel metaphors)
(summn other than time to roll the dice pls.... that's a bit boring)
Agnes Kormendi
252. tapsi
Herr_Flick, you're absolutely right, and we do have Egeanin PoV's I reckon... I don't know if the flame / void thing comes up, though
253. bookworm
@251 aiel1219

The previous was aiel1219 just after drinking a six pack of Jolt, two quad-shot vanilla lattes, and several Energy Shots.

Can't wait for the withdrawl phase later today.

@250 Herr_Flick

I agree with you about the Seanchan military training.

@246 Wetlandernw

Sounds good to me.
254. laframboise
@225 longtimefan - I agree with your reasoning on the 'touching the dark' business possibly precluding the 'finns rummaging in Lanfear's head too thoroughly. I was just trying to imagine a possible scenario that would otherwise explain her diminished channeling strength - guess we'll keep imagining on that. I don't know from handcuffs, and various social ramifications.
Richard Fife
255. R.Fife
Perhaps sniffing Lanfear was like doing a line of coke for the 'finn. Or perhaps a drop of acid? Imagine the flashbacks they are going to have.
256. GregoryD

That's simple Nateal did.

Asmo is going to the cupboard to see if there is any good wine there. He opens the door, which has a mirror attached to the inside, sees himself, and forgeting that he is also Nateal, says, "OH, no! Not you!" He channels the minute bit of the power and shots himself in the eye, which magnified by the mirror is reflected back into his retina and fries his brain.

He then falls into the closet and the staff finds him in the morning, saying, "Hey, Gov?! Had a little too much of the bubbly, heh?! Well, a few hours on the midden heap will sober you up!"

The hired help tosses him on the midden heap and the local sanitation engineers dispose of him. The wheel of time turns to the fourth age and Asmo runs for president on the Republican ticket under the name of Jeb Bush.

The End
257. bookworm
Remember Birgitte told Perrin that the Finns were outside of Randland concepts of good or evil.

So, I imagine that it would follow that the Finns would savor whatever it might be that they feed on just the same, whether it was good or evil (to Randland characters).

Maybe what the Finns feed on has something to do with how important a person is to the Pattern. Most people who might venture to their domain(s) would be more important than just some regular person.

Moiraine, Lanfear, Mat and Rand are all important to the Pattern, so the "savor" would be good (to the Finns). I also imagine that being ta'veren adds to the overall effect, thus explaining why having Mat and Rand visit at the same time proved almost overwhelming.

And remember that not everyone returns. The Eelfinn guide for Mat wasn't wearing pleather after all.
258. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
IIRC women learning the sword in the Westlands has been around for a while. Even then though, there is practically no instance of any one of these swordswomen going into formal military service until Elayne recruits some for her bodyguard. The vast majority of these are commoners. By comparison, the Seanchan armies not only recruit women, they also allow them to rise to very high positions. One good thing about Seanchan. No gender discrimination for these.
Very few noble ladies in the Westlands learn the sword until Berelaine's school in Cairhien. I don't know if these were taught the flame and the void. No mention of it, but I always assumed it was a common meditation technique taught to prospective swordsmen.
Blake Engholm
259. UncrownedKing
Damn JordanCon and my lack of a ticket/vacation time. We'll be talking about Thunder Cats and the impact of Conan the Barbarian on todays society by Friday, and I believe the world will implode by next monday.

RFife @232

If that is remotely true....Creator watch over us.
mark Proctor
260. mark-p
228. Eswana
The Good:
Rand, Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Avienda, Min, Cadsuane, Siuan, Moiraine, Faile, Galad, Berelain, Morgase, Logain
The Bad:
Moghedian, Fain, Alviarin
The Ugly:

That makes 20/21 seem quite small because I am sure there will be short POVs from minor characters at leased in the prologue and a few other places where it is necessary for the plot.
There's still the Aes Sedai hunting BA and half a dozen other subplots.
May be he was only counting large POV scenes from important chars in the 21.
Why did you put Moghedian on the list? what is she doing at the moment. There are other Baddies who might get a voice too like Moridin, Taim etc & hopefully whatshisname (super fade).
So I guess we wont get some of the more important goodies, Moiraine probably wont be in it until the next book unless we see the last chapter from her perspective. (and I think we would have to add Thom to the list).
I think we could exclude others like Berelain, Morgase, maybe even Avienda.

Who wants to start making a list of odds?
Egwene 99% chance of having a POV.
Rand, Mat 95%
Perrin, Elaine 90%
mark Proctor
261. mark-p
(back to the chapters in the post)
I agree with Leigh it would have been nice to see the two rivers from an Aeil perspective and what the place is like for total outsiders, apart from the ocean its about as different from the waste as you can get.
Were Verin and Alanna really only looking for potential Aes Sedai? Maybe trying to find ways to influence Rand?

The White tower must have lots of sources of income, they have all the taxes from the city, river trade etc, stable banking system. They have a lot of political influence and obviously use it to their advantage. And I am sure they must own a lot of property round the continent inherited from Aes Sedai who die without heirs.

I don't know how much influence they will have on the channelling genes, what proportion of the total do they cull? I don't think they have been very successful at finding learners up to now.
262. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
mark-p @261
I think it's been pretty much established by KoD that the reason they don't find learners is simply that they don't look.
mark Proctor
263. mark-p
yeah I agree, but what proportion do they find 5%? Is that enough to effect human evolution over a few thousand years? I would guess not.
264. RebelLives
R.Fife@232 - I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your comment. Pillars of Creation was so horrible. I may have had to committ hari kari if RJ had done that.

UncrownedKing@259 - We can start commenting on the Thundercats and how hot Cheetara is or if the movie they are working on will be any good.
Blake Engholm
265. UncrownedKing

Time out! Woah woah woah, Thunder Cat movie? Holy Jebus. Since when has then been going on, and why did no one tell me? Thats bitter sweet. As awesome as this could be, I think theres a chance it could suck. A good chance. I say the odds are 60/40 favor of it being bad.

Who is gunna be Snarf, the guy who played Gimli? (can't think of actors name) And whose Cheetara?
Marc Gioglio
266. u_turnagain
I can't hold it in any longer.

"Thundercats HOOOOOOOO!"

Cheetarah: "What is it this time?"

Ever notice how the thundercats are the bad guys?

Maybe the Dark one isn't bad at all?
Maybe he is the force of good.
After all, many would like to see a broken wheel at the end to end the suffering. How do we know this is not the dark one's goal?
267. RebelLives
@265 according to wikipedia it will be CGI.
Marc Gioglio
268. u_turnagain
Cheetara is obviously halle berry.

And I would revise your odds to closer to 85% chance of suckage...90% if Bay is involved, and 100% if it takes place on Earth.
271. AlleyGirl
Ok, completely off topic here, but then, what is on topic at this point, lol.

Just wondering when they had the first group portal stone experience and everyone saw tons of their possible lives, how come Matt didn't see Tuon in any of them?
272. RebelLives
The first group portal stone experience was in The Great Hunt as Rand tried to move Verin, Matt, Perrin and the Shienarans from Cairehen to Toman Head. Mat could have experienced something with Tuon, but they never talk about what he experiences only that he really doesn't want to have to re-live it.
Chiara Elvira
273. elvyelvy
R.Fife@255 I always thought the Foxy people in not-so-fancy-leather were having a sort of flehmen response, actually something similar to smelling the memory feromones.
Probably that is how they got all the memories now lodging in Mat's brain, not whole lives but bits and pieces, chapters so to speak.

aiel, thanks for the giggling simpathy. I'm afraid the poor man was right, I was laughing out way too much. As a good trekkie he would understand. Plus he's the domestic noise-maker, so he enjoyed changing roles for a time
274. Samadai
Thundercats Lanfear. I mean ho
275. Shadow_Jak
GregoryD @ 256
The hired help tosses him on the midden heap and the local sanitation engineers dispose of him. The wheel of time turns to the fourth age and Asmo runs for president on the Republican ticket under the name of Jeb Bush.

Don't be silly.
What chance would he have running against...
(wait for it)
The Dark One! *rimshot*
Amar Ramraj
276. aiel1219
@253 Bookworm
*looks around nervously* where r the dang cameras??

@264 RebelLives
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your comment. Pillars of Creation was so horrible. I may have had to committ hari kari if RJ had done that
You have a Sword?? Can I borrow it sometime??? Always wanted to try that throwing up an apple n slicing it... but never got to real swords... darn kendo sticks(or shinai).

@274. Samadai
I C what u did there :)

Oh a Thundercats movie...

Monday is soooo far away
mb... I can go buy some sorta pet...

hope more of u check out the 10 page colored n lettered preview of Dabel brothers comic.
Blake Engholm
277. UncrownedKing
I think she may have said she wont be returning till wed. I hope I'm wrong but....
Chiara Elvira
278. elvyelvy
Regular entries should start next Wednesday. And given the current state of posting addiction, well, I'm starting to seriously worry.

Ok, I'll go and get some work done before closing office...
279. RebelLives
@277 It says regular posts will continue next week so I'm assuming Monday.

@276 aiel, I have replicas of the Highlander swords. Blades are still pretty sharp.
Galen Brinn
280. GatheringStorm
Thundercats (shakes head)...

LOL. I remember that cartoon from when I was in like 8th grade.
Chiara Elvira
281. elvyelvy
aiel, shinai do not slice but can be pretty painful: as it happens the shade of my heart's best friend teaches kendo - she's blond, blue tilted eyes, saldaean-nose, and no, I wouldn't want to meet her at the other end of her katana/s, my Turkish dagger is no match.
Sam Mickel
282. Samadai
Look at me I have finally become one of you. All gray.

Lucky me I am going away for a 4 day weekend and so will be able to suffer from my post-withdrawals at the beach. The violent shakes will be calmed with warm ocean water and the Faile headaches will finally begin to fade
Galen Brinn
283. GatheringStorm
FAIL(TM) headaches! I like it! lol.

The wait for a new post is interminable...and to know that they are getting an advance reading of The Gathering Storm at JordanCon just makes it even worse.
Brett Michie
284. bchurch
Thanks to all of you for your hilarious posts!

And thanks especially to Fortune_Prick_Me @ 205
for those links. My first time seeing them.

I haven't laughed so hard since "kneel or you will be knealt."
285. bookworm
@276 aiel1219. Nothing magical, just experience.

@283 GatheringStorm. If it would make any of you feel better, I could make something up? I forgot about Furyk Karede. He needs some more PoV time, yes?
Sam Mickel
286. Samadai

I agree those links were great. I was laughing so hard yesterday all of my coworkers were staring at me. some of those made me laugh until I was crying
Galen Brinn
287. GatheringStorm
bookworm @ 283,

Be my guest. Even fiction of fiction would be welcome (as long as it isn't Eghead/Gawyn or FAIL(TM)/Perrin...
Blake Engholm
288. UncrownedKing
I'm sorry but this is hilarious

" The Spark:
The inborn ability to lose touch with the world.
(See Aes Sedai) "
Sam Mickel
289. Samadai
The wheel revolves, the air blows, in one age called the Age of Wisdom by some,( called the inevitable owning of the world by the Chinese by others.) the wind blew down around a large group of people in the shadow of Dragonmount. It blew right threw camp into the horse coralls and right into the horse Bela. "I dont know what I was thinking taking the form of a horse,no one even listens to me. My champion is running around like a chicken with his head cut off not bringing the world together like he is suppose to. That stupid girl I made Amyrlin is a twit who let herself get captured. I wonder if I shouldn't let my bro Shai'tan just win. it's not like i couldn't start over somewhere else. Of course I would hear about it at all the family picnics from now on." AH well screw it death is lighter than a feather
Blake Engholm
292. UncrownedKing
Sitting alone in his penthouse suit at the peak of Shayol Ghul, Shai'tan steps away from his computer and microphone, and turns off all the fire and molten rock. "I swear if I have to bring Lanfear or Bel'al back to life one more time.." he yelled at no one. It had grown lonely in the condo since his lover, Shaidar Harran, had started leaving on errands that he wouldn't tell Shai'tan about. That bubbled his blood more than anything.

Shai'tan looked at the clock and realized it was far passed time to break his fast. He opened the refrigerator in a vain hope that there still would be some silver pike left from last night. Alas, nothing of the like. He moves the jar containing the still pleading head of Asmodean and reached for the goat milk and cheese.

"Great Lord, please release me. Please?" whined Asmodean.

Shai'tan set the milk and cheese down and turned to stare at the still talking jar. 'If only Narg had just simply used balefire I wouldnt have to deal with this immortal head talking constantly,' thought the Dark One. He shuddered to think where the body was being contained. He contimplated releasing him and using him as an end table, as he sat down in his chair to watch the View, but Shai'tan changed his mind. He rather liked using Verin instead.

My attempt. I thought it was funny. Kinda. I like fiction fiction. It is kinda fun.
Sam Mickel
293. Samadai

Very good and funny. Asmodeans talking
Sacha G
295. Fortune_Prick_Me
"He rather liked using Verin instead." Hehe, nice!

(Glad I brought some giggles with those links earlier too)
Blake Engholm
296. UncrownedKing
Thanks guys. anyone else have any ideas how to spend the next 132 or so hours till next post?

I'm thinkin we host a rave party. We'll get all dressed up like tinkers turn on the techno and have Alundra do the light show (or a damane). Any takers?

P.s. if anyone outside of wot saw this I think they might treat me different in real life. ha
297. hoping to be of the blood
Will you dance the sa'sara?
298. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
mark-p @263
Not much. Since they only cull males with the spark, and those were rarest of the rare to begin with.

bchurch @284
Yep. Always satisfying to have the fact that Aes Sedai don't control the world thrown in their faces.

UncrownedKing @288
Galen Brinn
299. GatheringStorm
Uncrowned @ 296,

Yes, you must dance the sa'sara as punishment for the suggestion of dressing like Tinkers.
Sam Mickel
300. Samadai
Sammael sat quietly in the throne room his mind going over recent events. I sure am glad that crazy ass Moridin showed up at the last minute it gave me the perfect opportunity to compel him, give him my image and make everyone think I am dead.(damn the creator for writing me out of the story, oops third wall sorry).Except for this link with that damn farmboy everything is working out great. all those fools that I worked with(yeah right) will soon be dead and I will be Nae'blis. I am getting a little tired of every time i grab the true source losing control of my bodily functions but at least I don't have a crazy as batshit loser in my head.
Sam Mickel
301. Samadai
sorry just another attempt at fiction fiction
Blake Engholm
302. UncrownedKing
O I'll dance the sa'sara. Then I'm calling 'shotgun' on first game of Maidens' Kiss. O Yeah. I live on the edge.
Galen Brinn
303. GatheringStorm
LOL. Nice... between the "fiction of fiction" and Uncrowned's rave, we've totally lost it.

I'm SOOO glad my boss sits in the office right across the hallway.
Ofer Nave
304. odigity

I see what you did there.
Amar Ramraj
305. aiel1219
Shaidar Harran moved on Silent feet towards Bela... with his unflappable coat flapping.

The One Neigh had jolted the superfade back in phase with time and reality. But days of fighting and her last exertion left Bela Neighless... How many days ago had Tarmon Gaidon started? She could not remember...

Shaidar Harran's voice is as cold as the ice caps north of Shayol Ghul " U think u can protect them!!??" He snarls and attacks.

Black sword meets gray hoof like hammer on anvil... sparks fly... Three Prong Lightning meets Horseshoe in a Tornado.... IT HAS BEGUN!!!
Deborah Jones
306. NanaD
After 300 plus comments from 90-odd people we have really hit the bottom of the barrel. What ever shall we do until Wednesday?

And just to show how low I have sunk ,yes I did count all of us on this post.

Sad so very very Sad.
Galen Brinn
307. GatheringStorm
Thanks, Aiel. I think my boss is really suspicious now. All the under-the-breath laughing is going to get me in trouble.

NanaD, wow, that is sad...
308. bookworm
In honor of NanaD, to show her how wrong she could be.

Oh, a humorous take. I can do that.

Ajimbura spent the entire trip back to Ebou Dar silently cursing his recent streak of bad fortune. First, he had caught the boss sipping out of his favorite cup, in front of company no less! Then, he had cut his braid off for - nothing! How could he ever return home now? And what was worse, he had done the deed himself. It hadn't gotten any better when Musenge and Hartha had caught up with them. As the only servant available, Ajimbura himself had been expected to carry that accursed oozing bag of vile corruption all the way to the palace. Eeyeww. That was disgusting. Wouldn't have been so bad had I been the one to kill the sorda. But, nooooooo.

He had intended to get to know one of the (now former) High Lady Suroth's da'covale, but apparently she had disappeared. What a disappointment. She might have soothed his frustration. On the other hand, she might have been worse than an old, sore tooth. Looks could be deceiving, who knew better than himself?

Bother. There's that Seeker lurking around again, no doubt looking for the boss. Yes Seeker, No Seeker. It's enough to make me wish I stayed home. Drat that old prophecy anyway.
Amar Ramraj
309. aiel1219
@302. Uncrownedking
Can u teach me the Sa'Sara... my gf has been bothering me alot ... somethimg abt wantin to see me do a tribal dance... and please teach me b4 u decide to play maidens kiss... from comments abt u I hear from some of the Far Dareis Mai u may get nicked alot more than u do shaving...

@306 NanaD
Don't worry too much... its not sooo sad... at least there are 89 other ppl with u...
310. hoping to be of the blood
Submitted for your amusement

(because surely they must have one)
you thought it was easy being the DO

(Shaitan slouches over to the cafeteria line.)

I will have the penne alla arrabiata

You'll need a tray

No, I do not need a tray, for I am the Dark One and I am touching the Earth.

You'll still need a tray.

NO, I DO NOT. I can kill you with a tray for I am Shaitan, Heartfang, Father of Storms, and many other scary names, as well.

Kill me?! I just work here. Everyone takes a tray.

You must fear me for I can kill you with a thought. I can rip your soul from your body and leave you a lifeless husk. I rule her. I am in charge of this blasted mountain. WILL YOU SERVE ME?

You're in charge? Are you Mr. Stevens?

Who's Mr Stevens?

He's in charge of catering. I work for catering.... The food is hot, you'll need a tray.

NO I AM NOT STEVENS.... oh, I'll get a tray

(shuffles over to the tray cart)
this tray is wet and,
this tray is wet and,
this tray is wet and,
this tray is wet and,
this tray is wet and,
this tray is wet and,
Why, with all the power available to the Shadow, can't I get a dry tray...

(thanks to eddie izzard)
Obviously, i need a few revisions
Deborah Jones
311. NanaD

I was wrong, it just got worse.

Can't wait to see where we end up next week.

You people crack me up. I too sit at the computer and laugh out loud, but my boss is me.
312. Randalator
If you're starting to feel bored, I could spank someone and the rest of you could discuss the error (or non-error) of my ways.

I could spank one of the Ladies and one of the Gents. That's fine with me I'm an equal opportunity spanker. And it would certainly make things really interesting gender-wise. What with all the

"It's wrong to hit girls but the guy surely deserved it."
- "No, he didn't."
- "Yes, he did! Men always deserve it even if you don't know exactely what for."
- "You're being sexist!"
- "Don't sexist me!"
- "Try to stop me!"
- "See this chin? I'll raise it and sniff in your general direction!"
- "*snort*"
- "Lemon Curry?"
- "Would anyone, please, think of the kids?"
- "Hey, who let Octomom in here?"
- "Sorry, I thought she was Aviendha with her quadruplets. I wanted to make sure but I lost count"
- "That's so sexist! It's always the women in WoT who get pregnant. The men should get pregnant, too!"
- "Thanks for the mental image."
- "God, I miss Leigh..."
- "Who?"

Yep, could be fun. Who's with me...?
313. Siuanfan
When Mommy Leigh's away, the kids will play!

... next we'll be playing a game of "Which WoTter would you kill, boink, or marry?" Followed by some Tarmon Gai'don roleplay scenarios, a game of "Which Ajah?" and several Verin theories.

... I actually would like some Verin theories, I've heard plenty about Bela, but what about Verin? Sneaky little bird...
Chiara Elvira
314. elvyelvy
hopefulblood@310 the exact dish is "penne all'arrabbiata" (yumm I was so busy I forgot dinner, guess I'll join DO at the cafeteria and find the only dry tray - nahnahnah)

(he's still up and about, hammering relentlessly at his poor keyboard, so I can laugh loud, there won't be a repeat of yesterday night - but soon I'll go GVSmode, you never know)

The fanfiction is... impressive, even more so if put together with aiel dancing the sa'sara during a rave party ending with the equal opprtunity general cross-gender spanking session generously offered by Randalator.
90 crazy people lurking in this blog.
oi moi, I should finish restyling a webpage, but I just can't get myself to work. Not just now.
Sam Mickel
315. Samadai
So Bela, Jea'dean, and Stepper were all sitting around the corral one day.

ok not going to do it.
316. Randalator
Verin theory no. 321568:

Verin is often described as looking like a sparrow. This is a big clue-by-four that she is the great-great-great-great-...-great-granddaughter of Captain Jack Sparrow and head of the Pirate Ajah. She roams Randland looking for Black Pearls(TM), dreaming of guzzling grog and plundering galleons.

That nicely explains her interest in Shalon din Togara Morning Tide. She's a sucker for anything ship and sea related. Any time now we will see her storming onto a seafolk raker randomly shouting "Ahoy, me mateys!", "Avast, ye scurvy seadogs!" and "Arrrrrrr, ye salty sea curs. Thar be some fine booty ahead. Shiver me timbers!".
317. hoping to be of the blood

OK, I'm game

Kill- aviendha - she scares me

Boink- Semi- I hear she knows some pleasure centers

Marry- Setalle- a woman whose rough edges have been worn away
318. wsean
Sammael: Oh Great Lord of the Dark, I have--oh, ewww. That's gross. Are you picking your nose?
Dark One: NO.
Sammael: You totally are.
Sammael: Right. What's that then?
Sammael: That's totally your nose. How dumb do you think I am? *crosses arms under breasts and sniffs*
Dark One: WHAT
Sammael: You heard me. *crosses arms under breasts and sniffs*
Dark One: DUDE

319. Siuanfan
I think you've hit on the way the sea folk will be connected to the Tower... the coveted new Pirate Ajah! Dedicated to buckling swashes and weaving plunder and pillagement across the seas!

Uno's already got the eyepatch, so give him some saidin and a parrot and let him loose -- he can be the first Asha'man Pirate Ajah sea captain!

Just... never let him show you the "Captain's Log"...
Chiara Elvira
320. elvyelvy
... so he could boldly go where no one has channeled before.
321. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
hoping to be of the blood @317
The question is downright depraved, but can't help but mention that Semi isn't known for using pleasure centers. She's more into pain centers, but if you're into that as well, got no problems with me. Myself, I'd boink Graendal. She could boink me till I fall over, or compel me into thinking she's boinked me until i fell over. Plus, gotta love that transparent gown.
Alice Arneson
322. Wetlandernw
321. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed

If, of course, you're into being a mindless automaton for the rest of your life...
Richard Fife
323. R.Fife

Kill Elayne, preferably with the nose-break-into-brain method. let's see her keep that snooty nose up now!

Boink Berelain, someone as fierce and convining as that, I bet she'd LAY-IT-ON-YOU (TM). Totally would "search" her for "weapons".


Bela! She's dependable, after all.

I'm going to sleep now, then I'm getting up early and driving to Atlanta. You all know why. I feed upon your jealousy.
Alice Arneson
324. Wetlandernw

No, make that

325. Siuanfan
Heh R.Fife, I know what you mean... I'm not even gay but I'd totally consider boinking Berelain too. Rawr.

Eh I'd kill Faile and marry Perrin, but I'd totally secks up Davram Bashere.

Damn... I just realized I'm a total homewrecker. Lemme try again.

Kill Morgase, marry Tallanvor, secks up Galad.

Crap, I did it again! Um... lemme think on it and get back to you guys.
Alice Arneson
326. Wetlandernw
On a completely irrelevant note, can someone tell me the significance of "hot bookmarks"? Just curious...
327. hoping to be of the blood
"Semirhage almost smiled. No doubt he (Cabriana's Warder) thought pleasure easier to fight than pain. On rare occasions she had broken patients with no more than this."
Of course, I would need something like and asmo governor or an adam for her. No need to go to extremes.
Graendal a good second choice
Ofer Nave
328. odigity
Wetlandernw@324: Grrrr...Argh...

Is that standard monotone, or special melodic?
Amar Ramraj
329. aiel1219
kill- Elaida...method some rope to tie her up, some cooking oil and salt... *grins villainously*... Some figs and mice... oh and DEEVON GET THE TABLE!!!

boink- Elayne Min Aviendha Nynaeve...oh I know... That tinker who started dancing for Perin back in tEotW.

marry- Not so sure anyy of em would have me.. my gf says I'm high maintenance :s

And Mat and I do have a thing or 2 in common.
Brett Michie
330. bchurch
@ 313

I'm with RFife, kill Elayne. And Nyneave. And Weiramon, cause he's such a pompass ass friend o' the dark.

Marry Min. Have her help me invest.

Boink . . Bain and Chiad. Then Birgitte. Then . . .hmmm . . Lan? I'm not gay, but he is pretty badass. Then . . . My boinking list is too long to list here. *shrugs* It's what happens when you discover this series as a pubescent teen boy.

Edit. Nyneave can live. And Elayne . . till she gives birth.
331. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Kill Sevanna or Therava

Boink Graendal or Cyndane. Bad girls rule.

Marry Berelain
Brett Michie
332. bchurch
Demandred stepped quickly out through the gateway onto the slopes of Shayol Ghul and immediately released saidin. Only a madman would channel here. He made his way hurrying up the rocky slope under leaden skies past the forges of Thakan'dar where prisoners' screams dwindled as new blades were born for Myrddraal.

As he reached the place where he would normally enter the tunnel to the pit of doom, he found nothing but solid rock and that too-tall halfman, Shaidar Haran staring at him impassively.

Confused, Demandred watched the fade silently, having already learned not to make demands of him. After some time of unease, he questioned Shaidar Haran but got no answer. I came all this way at the Great Lord's orders, I'm not turning back now!

Demandrad pounded his fist against the rock wall shouting "Great Lord! It is I, Demandred! I have the stuff you sent me for!"


"No, Great Lord! It is me, Demandred! I've got the stuff!"


"Great Lord! Please let me in! It's Demandred! I've got the stuff!"

Brett Michie
333. bchurch
I know, I know . . tasteless . . sorry everyone, couldn't resist.
334. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Not a bad idea boinking Birgitte. And Aiel First sisters. Makes me wonder what goes on in Rhuarc's bed at night. Come to think of it, whatever is Rand gonna do when he gets all his wives together on the same night?
Amar Ramraj
335. aiel1219
Are u kidding... Elayne,Min and Aviendha... I'll tell u what he'll do, He'll do WHATEVER they tell him AND make sure he looks happy doing it. I wonder if Aviendha will teach Min an Elayne how to play maidens kiss. hmmm.... mb Min could use her knives and elayne a few tiny fireballs... hopefully she can heal little singes...
Dang I'm bored... and I'm down to THOSE books in my reread now... will probably be stuck there until Leigh starts em...
336. Tony Zbaraschuk
Boink: Breane Taborwin, as recommended by Thom.

Kill: Elaida. Enough stupidity already.

Marry: Verin, for access to the Tower libraries.
Kevin Morgan
337. DrMorganstien
@326 Wetlandernw
HA, I can't believe anything said can be considered irrelevant at this point.
Also, I have no idea.

Marry: Leane Shariff

Boink: Saldean farm girl

Kill: Elaida, need i say more?
338. Shadow_Jak
OK, so a Whitecloak walks into the common room of an inn with a Tinker, a blacksmith, and a penguin.

The Whitecloak says, "Innkeeper, drinks for everyone but nothing for Dark Friends."

The Tinker says, "So mote it be. Drinks without end. Anyone know any songs?"

The blacksmith has one drink, turns to the Whitecloak and says, "You've had enough and so have I". He crushes his cup, the Whitecloak's cup, and pours the Tinker another Brandy. Then hammers the Whitecloak into the floor.

The penguin says, "Got any fish?"
A school of Silverspike push away from a table in the far corner, streak through the reeds to encircle the penguin and begin chanting, "Swim with me shadow fisher. Swim with me!"
The penguin says, "Fools! I am the Fisher Emperor Penguin". He grasps his side with one hand... er fin... er wing? and shields his eyes with the other one (of those things), draws heavily through the garnet red, herring shaped sa'angreal he swallowed earlier by accident.
He channels streams of pure cornmeal batter. "Fry you spawn of Shaitan! Fry".
Amar Ramraj
339. aiel1219
Red Haired Visitor at Shayol Ghul
Knock knock...

the visitor: It's me
the visitor: It's me, stupid n inept!
the visitor:hmmmm... are u sure (muttering to himself"damn I was sure that'd work!!")

ok ok mb I'll stick to Bela stories from now on.
340. CraigV
Ilyena Therin Moerelle

Here is my take on Ilyena
1) She was a pudding faced blonde. Two strikes against her from the strikingly beautiful but black tressed Lanfear.
2) She had earned the third name honorific which meant she had intellectual attainments Lanfear did not.
3) She was a better in bed and a jolly good romp and LTT had sampled both.
4) She was an exquisite diplomatic hostess and one heck of a chatelaine. Stuff Lanfear couldn't be bothered with.

So what was there for Lanfear to like.
Chiara Elvira
341. elvyelvy
R.Fife just got up and AAAAAARGH!!!!!! Buttered onions and dry figs!! (a bit of creative swearing here in the Two Shores, my backend of anywhere homeland) you going WHERE? no, stay home, you'll find hordes of Trollocs dressed up as common visitors there. Plus Mummy Leigh quite upset about the state of her once-so-cool-blog. She might have a few choice words for you. DO NOT GO
Oh well I did make a try but my DO voice wasn't that good.... BOHOOHOOHOOOOOOO he's going to Atlantaaaaaa.

And I'm stuck here, the other side of the Ocean and a bit more... got work to do, the same I didn't do yesterday and most likely not even today, not a gai'shain in sight to bring order under my roof, so I will have to do that as well...

Eradicate Elaida? wow, where do I join the party?

Aiel, ALL men are high maintenance... and what have you in common with Mat? (grinning wickedly)
Brett Michie
342. bchurch
Three Seia Doon and two Far Dareis Mai are sitting in a sweat tent after a long day marching and scouting. Outside in the dark night, Mat Cauthon walks by whistling. The aiel in the tent think his whistling is the Car'a'Carn's birdcall alarms signaling a shadowspawn attack. They burst out of the tent grabbing veils and spears, eager to join the dance. The first Seia Doon stumbles into something shaggy.
After it becomes clear that there is no attack, the Maidens laugh loudly and slap their thighs as they watch the man demand that Bela take him gai'shain since she touched him in battle.

A year and a day later, he puts off the white and lays a bridal wreath at her hooves.
343. Siuanfan

Also, Shadow_Jak @ 338... are you sure you didn't mean PRAWN of Shai'tan? Mweheehee.
Blake Engholm
344. UncrownedKing
Ok heres the real list:

KILL: Every single Aes Sedai in Lord of Chaos. If everyone here has blocked that book out of their memory bank, I'll remind you that they are some of the most pompous ass, wool-headed, hair on chest thinking (gross? wax that ladies), semi-evil if not completely evil, insane humans in the whole Wide World of Rand (WWR) TM. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boink: Tylin. Why? Because she wants it way way way more than you ever will, can, or do.

Marry: hmmmm this is hard. I would venture to say I'd marry Min.

But seriously poeople, Every ... Single... Aes Sedai... in LoC
345. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Tony Zbaraschuk @336
Why Verin if all you want is access to Tower libraries? There are better looking Browns out there, not to mention younger. There's Demira "I got stabbed by a short black-eyed Aiel who calls Rand the Dragon Reborn instead of the Car'acarn" Eriff, and Gabrielle aka Logain's "partner".

UncrownedKing @344
Ah yes, LOC aka Watch the Aes Sedai Make a Mess of Dealing with Rand. Arrogance galore. I can barely wait to rant out on them. I wouldn't be so hard on them, though. They got what they deserved in the end.
346. BigMac
alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed @334 & aiel1219 @335:
That is a concept I haven't really thought much about yet (them all being in the same place/same time), although now I am anticipating something like an Illuminators' show going on and Rand being completely confused at what to do then mentioning that Perrin or Mat has a better way with women *sigh*.

Although... what would it be like if all this Tarmon Gai'don business went away and they all got to live happily ever after? I would imagine it would be something 'mundane' (compared to the utterly fantasticness of what goes down in WOT) like that HBO tv show "Big Love"...(Ridiculous idea? Yes). Except which one would would wear the cowboy boots and run up Rand's credit card bills? Aviendha. ha!
347. RebelLives
Kill: Sevanna

Boink: Moiraine - I think there is something hiding there waiting to be released. Lucky Thom! :)

Marry: Min. She just seems like a nice girl to marry.

I find it interesting that most everyone has chosen a female character to kill.
Blake Engholm
348. UncrownedKing
Ahh yes. One of the best "HAHA" (Nelson Laugh) moments I've experienced. lol Kinda a twisted way to talk about it. But its fiction.
Blake Engholm
349. UncrownedKing
350. hoping to be of the blood
It's day 4 without a new post. Panic rises. The voices grow louder.
"...we have barred the gates... We cannot get out. The end comes. ...drums, drums in the deep."
(oops, wrong series)
*in my best Marlon Brando "Streetcar" voice*
Chiara Elvira
351. elvyelvy
three wives together? maybe the OP might help and... no, better not pursue that line of thought.

LEIGH, to the rescue!!!! We are losing hopefulblood.
Galen Brinn
352. GatheringStorm
I go home for the evening and look what happens: The party degenerates rapidly w/o adult supervision!

You must all be spanked (except fiction of fiction people). LOL.
353. happi
By Monday, this place will look like the Seanchan Imperial Court after Semi gets done with it!
Blake Engholm
354. UncrownedKing
WARNING: Incoming Fiction-Fiction

Storm Leader Andalean leaps through the air just as the spot where he was just standing explodes into a ball of earth and brush, flying in all directions. He has no time to even wonder if any of his company were caught by the blast. He lands awkwardly on his shoulder which causes his entire arm to go numb slightly. 'Just another day of training in the Black Tower,'sighs Andalean to himself.

He was dead tired already, without the unnecessary hopping about of this 'seek and find' type drill. Last night the M'Hael's tinker-rave had been one of the most outrageous yet. With a strange new type of music that would build and build and build until you thought your heart may explode then it would end abruptly without any kind of climax. Logain had called it techno, quite an odd name but incredibly addicting. Andalean had witnessed Taim to the sa'sara, which is an image he could do without, till he fell overin exhaustion.

With a sigh, he pushed the images and thoughts of last night away, and rolled into a crouched pose and let out a low-growl that could only be described as barbaric. As the growl peaked a layer of the highest quality cuellindar had formed over all of his skin. People had begun calling him Collosus because of this type of weave, but he didn't like the name.

Andalean lept from his crouched position and charged the apposing group of Ashaman. Balls of fire and bolts of lightning simply glancing off his body. The shock and aw on Magnito, the opposing storm leader, was enough make Andalean laugh.

"The day is mine," thought Andalean.

dont know where this came from. Long live Fiction-Fiction
Galen Brinn
355. GatheringStorm
It already looks worse than the Seanchan Imperial Court, happi.

Nice, Uncrowned.!
356. bookworm
I agree with @353 happi. I feel like the proverbial person watching a train wreck. Can't. Look. Away.

Trapped. Fascinated. Repelled. Remorseful.

Choices? Lightning or Balefire?

Eddie Izzard takeoff. Chuckles.

Thankfully, local weather forecast good all weekend. Distractions available in just a few more hours.

Tick, tock...tick, tock. Watched clocks pass slowly. Watched pot won't come to a boil, says kettle.

Are there stedding in Seanchan? Almurat Mor, Pinhead or Patriot? Does being "intuitively obvious" make any sense? What Randland nationality are you? I'm Ghealdanean, I'm thinking. Why has no one created a map of Seanchan? If some really think that RJ meant Randland to be our world, why has no one found a lopar, grolm, raken, to'raken, capar, corlm, jumara or jagal skeletons/fossils?
Lannis .
357. Lannis
Sounds like I missed a crazy WoT party the last couple of days! Sa'sara dancing, Tinkers, apparent Forsaken cross-dressing, the introduction of the Pirate Ajah (do their shawls have that pretty little bird icon embroidered on them, or skulls and crossbones?).

And what have we all learned? There's a reason why Leigh is around to guide us--we're hopeless without her... Do you suppose, after a week's vacay at JordanCon, she'll bother to read all this craziness? Or just move on to the next post?!

It has occurred to me that this blog will be archived by Tor and years from now complete strangers will be convinced of our WoT obsessions and collective insanity. And then they'll realize that we're all loose in society, and have been for years...

And they'll be very very afraid.

And they'll Google the term "Octomom"--if it's not already on TvTropes...
358. happi
@356 Bookworm - There must be stedding in Seanchan - Hawkwing found AS there that were leftover from the breaking - and before - from the AOL (hmmm - never noticed that acronym before!) - so Seanchan had to have been populated during the AOL - and there are ogiers there. Ogiers LOST the steddings during the breaking - so they must have had them all over before.

Wow - what a line of reasoning - Vizzini's got nothin on me!
Blake Engholm
359. UncrownedKing

There are most certainly stedding over in seanchan land due to the fact that have Ogier fighting divisions in their army. Mat has decribed them as beyond frightening bc of the huge axes they carry.
360. hoping to be of the blood
"...loose in society..."
and, if I am not mistaken, entrusted with some responsiblity,IRL
Brett Michie
361. bchurch
I know we're a couple weeks late for Bel Tine, but maybe we can have our own little festival for JordanCon. Or, maybe we already have been, considering the state and nature of recent posts. *shrugs guiltily with too-innocent eyes, color rising in cheeks*

Online potluck? Dancing? Fireworks? Did someone order a gleeman? Let the wine, ale, and oosquai flow!

Here's to the hope that we'll all be there next year!

And bookworm, I think I'm probably Andoran. Or maybe Ghealdanan. Backwoods. Lots of sheep and hay in the hair.
362. LewsTherinKinslayer
Boink: Lanfear

Marry: Ilyena

Kill: Ilyena
Chris Maurer
363. grayfox
Nice one, get out of my head!
364. Siuanfan
Well played, LTK.

I'd join the Pirate Ajah but I'm too keen on being Brown. I appreciate a group of folks who let you be a space cadet all you want and nobody even bothers to remark on it anymore. I tend to daydream like Dr. John Dorian, and get lost in thought, pondering the whats and whys of the universe... but it gets annoying when people keep twitting you about it!
Kevin Morgan
365. DrMorganstien
I have been eagerly awaiting a reference like that all day. anyone for some jiggly ball?
Chris Maurer
366. grayfox
boink: Melindhra - yes she's a darkfriend, but we learn in tFoH that she gives good backrubs after doing it. I'm a sucker for a good backrub.

marry: Min - too easy.

kill: Egwene - because I'd get sick of rescuing her from being captured.

Speaking of which...I just compiled a list of how many times each of the main "good" guys & girls have been captured or detained against their will...

Egwene - 5 (whitecloaks, Seanchan, bandits on way to Tear, Tear, Tower)
Nynaeve - 3 (bandits on way to Tear, Tear, Macura)
Elayne - 3 (bandits on way to Tear, Tear, Macura)
Min - 2 (Seanchan, Kore Springs)
Suian - 2 (Tower coup, Kore Springs)
Leane - 2 (Tower coup, Kore Springs)
Faile - 1 (Shaido)
Moiraine - 1 ('finns)
Morgase - 1 (Shaido) but could add Caemlyn

Rand - 2 (man in the box, Far Madding)
Perrin - 1 (whitecloaks) unless you count being married to Faile
Mat - 0 unless you count Tylin...
Lan - 0
Rhuarc - 0
Loial - 0
Bayle Domon - 1 (Seanchan)
Gawyn - 0
Galad - 0
Logain - 1 (false dragon)
Thom - 0

Running total unless I'm forgetting some is...

Women - 20
Men - 5

4-to-1...women in this series are seriously inept...
Blake Engholm
367. UncrownedKing

Now you know somone is going to make the "its not just the women in the series" comment. Then the whole world is going to implode creating a black hole of WOT and estrogen. This black hole will gain in size with every soul it devours. It will begin chanting wildly about absoultly anything and everything WOT based.

Leigh will then return from HotLanta and this post will be 10,000 posts of nothing but *headdesk*,ROFLMAO, fiction-fiction, Verin theories, Bela theories, and WOT jokes.


Its already there isn't it?
Galen Brinn
368. GatheringStorm
"I'm the man in the box/Burried in my shit/Won't you come and save me" (Alice In Chains)

Sorry, couldn't resist after "Rand - 2 (man in the box, Far Madding)"

"Perrin - 1 (whitecloaks) unless you count being married to Faile". This counts at least as much as any of Egwene's blunders...
369. innkeeper
blood and bloody ashes!
mark Proctor
370. mark-p
wasn't Elayne captured again in KoD
Mat was not able to leave Ebou Dar when ever he wanted so it should count. Plus could you count the Eelfinn, Rand did save him from hanging.
What about Tuon (is she good?) Mat did roll her up in a carpet.
So that makes it 22:7
It still makes the girls seem weak but there are probably more important female characters than male

or if you count capturing a group as one event things are improved 11:7 (see not so bad :) )

This page is taking longer and longer to load. I vote we pick another thread and invade it.
371. hoping to be of the blood
jordancon live video feed available above
Chris Maurer
372. grayfox
mark-p: I don't remember Elayne being captured, but that's probably because my memory of KoD is so bad. Now that you mention it by that Doilan Melar (sp?) and Birgitte ends up saving her because of the bond?

I also guess you could count Tuon in the "good guys" column.

I don't know about Mat though. I'd be willing to give you the 'finns (maybe as a 1/2), but probably not Ebou Dar. He could have left if he really wanted to, but didn't the pattern keep him there more than the Seanchan/Tylin?

I was going to go by groups but then you have the Egwene/Perrin capture by the whitecloaks in tEotW, so I don't know how to write it. Also, considering it SHOULD be harder to capture a larger group of people (the supergirls) than 1 person, so going by man-captures is probably more indicative of ineptitude...
373. fss
Elayne was captured by the BA and saved by Birgite, Charlz Guybon, and some Sea Folk windfinders.
Blake Engholm
374. UncrownedKing
ugh.... Sea Folk {shutters and whimpers slightly}
Galen Brinn
375. GatheringStorm
Elayne was captured by the BA in another spectacular display of incompetence, ineptitude, stupidity and lack of forethought, which causes needless balefire deaths of many people. All due to her stupidity and arrogance.

While I can't stand FAIL(TM), I'm not sure which one ranks higher on my fecal roster; FAIL(TM) for being uber annoying or Elayne for being uber stupid.
376. blightboggle
I dont know if anyone has ever brought this up but I beleive we are going to find out that we are actually *reading* Loail's story. There are so many references about his book writing that it would seem a fitting end to the series to find someone reading his book to their kids. I know this concept is not new to novels but I personally would enjoy that being the case here!
Chris Maurer
377. grayfox
Elayne was captured by the BA and saved by Birgite, Charlz Guybon, and some Sea Folk windfinders.

wow, i really don't remember that!! guess i need to keep reading!
Marc Gioglio
378. u_turnagain
OK Crazy Verin theory:

So, many have pointed out cases where it seems like Verin lies.

I posit that Verin, being sneaky and all that, just goes by the oath as it is spoken.

She speaks no word that is not true, but occassionally speaks words that are not true when used together. This not being prohibited by the oath rod.

I also think that she can make weapons for men to use against women, and women to use on whoever they want, and if men get a hold on them...meh.

And of course, the line of where the one power is used as a weapon is pretty thin as it is. Clearly the case could be made that moraine growing to giant size is a weapon aimed at intimidating the WC.
Chiara Elvira
379. elvyelvy
mark-p about invading another thread, who will be in charge of the invasion? the Pirate ajah?
where do I join it?

lannis, I suppose the pirate ajah has the AS symbol WITH skull and crossbones.

I sniff, raise my eyebrows and skip the talk of ineptitude.

Almost time to go hooome
Galen Brinn
380. GatheringStorm
elvyelvy @ 379,

"I sniff, raise my eyebrows and skip the talk of ineptitude."

Why? Are you a fan of Elayne the Incompetent or just don't want to get dragged into it?

381. FullNelson
I can't imagine having the kind of power the AS have and withholding it from the world to the extent that they do, although @19 raises some reasonable points, as does @29. Very few of the AS are actual "good guys" in my book; I think most are Lawful Neutral. Oops, my geek is showing... how indecent...

As far as not seeing Allanna as "bad"... you ever think about being bonded against your will, then Compelled, in a totally premeditated fashion? I know, I know, Rand shouldn't have been wearing that dress... ;)
Imagine further, if you will, that treatment continuing for the rest of your life, because that is what she would have done to Rand, justifying the continued theft of his self by the fact that "it's to Save The World!" Being on the wrong end of the warder bond in general leaves you with more freedom than most slaves but less than any indentured servant! I fully agree with Mat - Warders are chumps.

I don't think any of them would volunteer to be "baby factories" for, say, 50 years. I know I wouldn't. Consider spending one month per year 8 months pregnant - for 50 years running. Oy!
AS aren't the most maternal examples of females as it is. Knowing that any of your children who can't channel you will outlive and have very little contact with, and any who do channel you will be unable to have any kind of relationship with until they are also AS (at, say 40 years old), I think the birth-mother would be unable and unwilling to form the same bond our society expects between mother and child. They would probably have to rear their children in a creche of some sort until they got old enough to be sorted into talented vs untalented, and then you have the problem of what to do with the untalented. On the other hand, you can educate the lot of them and then you can dispense entirely with Novices (a demeaning waste of many years), plus you have lots of untalented kids who are well educated and hopefully loyal to the Tower as a whole - great supply of Warders, diplomats, people to marry to nobles or set up with trading ships etc etc all the while spreading whatever beliefs and teachings you've taught them.
It occurs to me that it is either a great tragedy or a great relief that I'm not calling the shots...

You ah cohrect, suh!

RE:Yellows not healing
I think, in practice, the Yellows are dedicated less to *practicing* than to *perfecting* their Healing. I think they've forgotten that there is a difference. There are various references throughout the books to AS healing cpets, but not one single reference to a Healing center for humans - and we have POVs from every major population center. Ugh. Don't get me wrong, puppies and kitties = very cute, and to deliberately refuse Healing to one would be, well, Not Nice, but to go out of your way to heal pets instead of people... wow. Where does charity begin again? Aparently about as far from home as is possible.

Look, you can drink Coke or drink Pepsi, and you're not doing anything wrong (well, not very wrong), just don't think you're changing the world or that the choice of brand matters to anyone except the people who are taking your money. Every time someone personally identifies themselves with ANY brand, an advertiser gets a raise, and that really cuts against the grain of my idea of "put all advertisers in a giant rocket ship and shoot it into the center of the sun." Oops, that was kinda cynical. Regardless, not only will I stand by that position, I am fortifying it as I speak! Or type. Or whatever. I also mute commercials! BWA HA HA!

I cringe whenever I read this. Yes, Faile can be an unmitigated ass, just like every other character, just like every other person I've met, including that ugly bloke in the mirror. She is almost as much of a natural leader as Perrin is but was raised to lead and taught what leaders should know. She's very young and trying to help save the world - cut her some slack and let's get on with life!
@67 - probably the best one I can think of is when she decides on the spur of the moment that she is going to take care of *every single gai'shain* (100,000+ penniless refugees with no common background who have done nothing for months except what they're told) and implements the solution by herself, again on the spur of the moment, sans rehearsal, sans safety net, and frankly, I'd rather have Faile on my side than FEMA! (I think that was very clever:-)) Perrin's reaction is to grin - he knows she has it under control. For that matter, she teaches Perrin how to become a leader because she knows how, because she was raised to, while Perrin was raised to pound on rocks with hammers.

Hmmmm... sticky rant follows... let's avoid the... disappointing unpleasantness... from the posts of Leigh's last review, pretty please? OK.

Some AS like sex, some like it with men. Neither act is forbidden per se. I believe it is Tarna (a Red) who muses about young boys being "easily controlled, and ever so grateful" or somesuch. Some people really aren't that picky about who they obey their biological imperative with (is that delicately said enough for everyone?)
I would like to remind everyone that one of the prerequisites for women to have political, economic and social freedom is a mostly-effective system of birth control. Put another way, without modern, scientific advances in contraceptives, women IRL would be much less "liberated" than they are today (that was intended as a statement of something I believe is a fact, not a derogatory comment. OK, back to WoT now).
What, AS can Heal anything short of death but they can't prevent conception? What, these immensely powerful magicians have spent 3,000 years in seclusion and haven't invented a way of dealing with... unwanted fertility in general, and That Time Of The Month in particular? As the kids say, puh-leeeeese. Humans are, first and foremost, creators and problem solvers. AS have many powerful tools at their disposal - they have already solved this particular problem!
However, the Oath Rod as The Pill strikes me as too simple and too complicated. Much more likely they have a tea, a weave, a meditative technique, or even a supply of Ter'Angreal. The first AOL AS who made a That-Time-Of-The-Month-curing T'A would show people, cause that's what humans do with things we create. Everyone she told about it would say ".......... I want one!" Especially the men!
(That was intended as a joke - it's OK not to like it but please remember I wasn't trying to draw blood)
Sorry for the (annoying qualifications and condescending backpedaling) - I'm not very internet-forum-savvy and so have never seen anything like what people were posting last time. I was highly disgusted by it and would hate to be the cause of such a display; please don't make me one. Moving on...

I've noticed that almost everyone who likes SoT hates WoT and vice versa. Maybe this is because the one is a love story with elements of epic fantasy and the other is an epic fantasy with elements of a love story. Heehee - WoT/SoT. Go on, say it a few times. Wheee! Talk about your Intrinsically Funny Words.

RE:From whence the AS get $$$?
They administer/rule Tar Valon, the richest and most beautiful city in Randland. Taxes, my friends. I hope no one thinks it is unrealistic that they would tax the city to provide their incredibly rich stipends? Kind of reminds me of our present day kleptocrats. OK, I'm getting cynical again - moving on...

RE:Men can't handle wizard-women
I, for one, would totally go out of my way to mack on a sorcoress - if nothing else, it would be an adventure and a half. Just because she CAN do all kinds of nasty things to me doesn't mean she WILL, and frankly, I am resourceful and ingenuitive enough that I could probably... if not defend myself, avenge myself. On the other hand, we still segregate tennis players because the guys are afraid of losing to girls, so go figure. That's right, I said it, I meant it, and I dislike it!

So many posts - I'm not even halfway through yet! Sorry for the length of mine but I hate to post anything without reading everyone to make sure they didn't already post it which leaves me with lots to respond to. If I'm breaking netequite please to let me know!
Deborah Jones
382. NanaD
I checked out the live feed from Jordancon.

I really couldn't tell what they were saying but got really nice butt shots for awhile.
Blake Engholm
383. UncrownedKing

bAHAHAHAHAH I saw that then turned it off. lol you think they would realize they were standing in front of camera
384. drewoftherushes

Soul genetics, perhaps?

@nobody in particular

The Aiel Asha'man unit got me thinking...why doesn't the shadow turn every male Aiel channeler who wanders into the blight to the shadow, and then unleash them on Randland? Do a little Fain-style brainwash, get them some new clothes and let them run free in Andor or something. Sure they'll go mad eventually, but that's even better, isn't it?

Sometimes I almost feel like I'm rooting for the bad guys. Anybody watch Death Note?
Luke M
385. lmelior
Boink: Lanfear. A woman whose disguise is a less beautiful woman than she is, but is still the most beautiful woman on the planet? Count me in.

Marry: Moiraine. For many reasons.

Kill: Rand. We need a Dragon Reborn who's not such an idiot. Plus he already cleansed saidin, so when the Pattern immediately spits out a new Dragon Reborn he won't be insane.

Verin theory fact:
She's described as a stout woman and nobody knows how old she is. She may not be bound by the Three Oaths, and she knows things that nobody else seems to know. I claim, then, that she's from another age. But which one? Now, her first Warder was named Balinor, and she does not say how long ago that was. Balinor, Balin, Valinor, do these names sound familiar?

Conclusion: Verin is a dwarf sorceress from Middle Earth.

386. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
bookworm @356
There are Stedding in Seanchan. Ogiers there never lost the Stedding and never experience the Longing no matter how long they are separated from it.

GatheringStorm @352
Spanked? I didn't know you were into things like that. You need a good Saldaean farmgirl.

grayfox @366
That's what comes of thinking everything can be handled with the look. And the snooty nose. And the raised eyebrow.

mark-p @370
Of course there are more self-important women in the story than men.

FullNelson @381
Even Aes Sedai describe the Warder Bond as "a poor bargain" and you can bet the poor side isn't theirs.
It was Toveine who had a taste for boys. Tarna likes men and have found a few that weren't intimidated.
Birth control in WoT is relatively simple. All you need is a tea. It was mentioned at least once in Caemlyn.

drewoftherushes @384
That's a disturbing possibility.

lmelior @385
Lanfear. Yummy.
387. R.Fife Abroad
As I type this, I am at JordonCon. They told us who killed Amso, but made us swear to secrecy. Sorry.
Brett Michie
388. bchurch
Can someone hold my hand and point me to the live feed? I'm sorry, I'm sometimes incredibly inept at finding links.

*Eyes and Mouth turn to endless caverns of flame in rage at RFife's comment*
389. hoping to be of the blood

"I agree with @353 happi. I feel like the proverbial person watching a train wreck. Can't. Look. Away.

Trapped. Fascinated. Repelled. Remorseful.

Choices? Lightning or Balefire?"

Definitely balefire. Just enough to get rid of all the crazy posts so Leigh won't find out how bad we've been
390. fullnelson
Wow - it looks like I actually managed to make it here before people stop posting! That's a first... course, I'm always several days late...

Good spot on the Fisher foreshadowing. Methinks Rand has some rough times a'comin. Methinks further that Rand's participation in the Last Battle will, primarily, be non-combat oriented. Oops, can't back that statement up except to say Rand is now feeble enough that there ain't no way he's going to take down Shaidar Haran in a straight-up fight and nobody can channel around SH, so even with the likelihood of Rand's willingness to 'Sheathe the Sword' Rand is in tru-bul.

"Stupergirls"? >Sideshow-Bob-esque elaborate shudder and "ugh"rakefacerakefacerakefacerakefacerakefacere a lot of metaphorical rakes around that argument! Must be a sign.

Normal people are reborn to live multiple random lives, "special" people are reborn to Do Something Fateful, which IMO would be a pretty terrible reward for faithful services rendered. "May you live in interesting times... then be reborn in them again. and again. and again and again and again!"

@153 & 155

Well summed up - I had to delete my (much lengthier) thought that said the same thing.

I agree that the Loial POV was one of the best parts in KOD. I further posit that it was long overdue.
Your dialogue about Gawyn hating Rand sounds right out of All My Circuits - I love it!

DUDE! Careful with that s*, man!

RE:Logain v Taim
Logain may have Callandor (although I don't seem to remember when he gets it - Rand gave it to Narishma last I heard) but Taim has dozens if not hundreds of darkfriend Asha'man to back him up, and you gotta think he's got an ace or two up his sleeve (ie:He can call Demandred like Alviarin can call Mesana perhaps?)

RE:Aiel Ashaman Unit of Light
This is almost as cool as a Dinoriding Cyborg Ninja Jedi Zombie Pirate flying a spaceship!

@205 & @218 & @256 & @266
*wipes tears from eyes* my sides hurt!

RE:All the fiction-fiction
Well done everyone; most of them were clever and all were entertaining.

Good question - I never thought of that. Beats the you-know-what out of me.

And, since we're gettin all weird with it...
Kill:Any of the windfinders except the human one who teaches Elayne. No, wait, Elayne! How I hate chivalry! Or maybe Tylin, now that I think of it. Or Wieramon, although I agree with Heinlien that stupidity is generally its own punishment - he'll get his. Now that I think of it, I am also unable to think of very many male characters who I'd use my kill on.
Boink:hmmm... RJ doesn't write very many ugly characters. Graendel - but I'd want a brain-condom so she couldn't Compel me.
Marry:Min - best of the boinker-candidates who are still well-rounded people I'd want to be around.

RE:Women getting saved more (Essay warning! Delicate topic warning!)
IMO society seems to expect women to end up as victims more often than men, but has more sympathy for a victimized female than for a victimized male. The ratio you describe is prevelant across all forms of storytelling. There are many movements and organizations to help only women and few that help only men. I think this reflects that "equality" is still in the beginning stages of experimentation. Men are expected to save themselves, women are expected to need rescuing. Doubly sexist. This cuts both ways - when we think of spousal abuse we generally think of it going from the man to the woman - this is not always the case though I have no way of knowing how often it is, nor does it really matter. There are more male prostitutes than there are female soldiers, yet the current propoganda line is "our men and women in uniform" and I have yet to ever hear anyone mourn a male prostitute (not that many people mourn female ones either). This isn't cause people are bad people, it's cause "equality" is not a naturally occuring condition - one gender gets pregnant and the other doesn't, and no matter how Garden-of-Eden you get, that puts Gender A in one role and Gender B in another. Society is in the process of... re-examining those different roles, and it is not easy because they came into existence over thousands of years to solve very real problems. I expect this to take many generations to be fully successful, and I too am impatient with the process. But while we're talking sexism... I would kill a man if that was the only way to stop him from doing to a woman what Tylin later does to Mat. Kidnapping and repeated rape over the course of, what, three months? In my mind, this is the worst act of intergender injustice so far in the story. Maybe Rand would like to be "rescued" from Alanna's bonding of him? (Nothin but love for either gender, both of whom deserve better than society is giving them, we're all friends and fellow WoTians here, and what do I know anyway? Moving on...)

Finally, to Leigh - thanks for doing what you're doing, enjoy Jordan-com, accept my general wishes of prosperity and well-being... can we please skip the part of the book where Asmodean dies? Please? I just don't wanna hear it anymore!
391. happi
ok - a serious point to help us out for awhile.

We all have given lots of thought to the issue of what it means to be the "Dragon Reborn". But I find it interesting that there's almost NO discussion by the internal characters about what that means. For the most part, to them it means that he's another strong channeler who's going to fight the shadow and destroy the world - and that's it. Cadsuane (I think) points out that male channelers sometimes hear voices and its a sign of madness - and Rand believes that - maybe we should too, lol. But there's no other discussion that I can remember about what the "Reborn" part means. I think that might have been very helpful for Rand.
392. RebelLives
bchurch: Look at the upper right under Latest Posts for the name Pablo for the link to the livefeed. I'd watch but all video is blocked at work.
Blake Engholm
394. UncrownedKing
Your not missing a whole lot. couple people at a table. a projector behind them. Cant make out faces, voices or the picture on the screen. lol guess they dont have an incredible AV crew workin it.
Roger Powell
395. forkroot
LTL/FTP - and geesh I picked the end of a l-o-n-g discussion for my first comment

Min was also captured (separately) when Rand was put in the box

I'd be tempted to include Moggy's compulsion incidentin Tanchico for Elayne/Nyn. Even though they weren't "detained" they were surely under someone else's control.

Elayne in KoD as others have pointed out.

I'd count 3 for Morgase: Rahvin, Amador, Shaido

I'd definitely count Tylin as 1 for Mat - and give him one more for being held at the WT until the supergirls gave him the Amyrlin's letter.

Marry: Min of course ... She's about as universally appealing to males as Mary Ann is on (no! Don't go there...)

With that said, I've always had a crush on Leane. This is tempered slightly by the fact that we are not 100% sure she isn't a darkfriend.
There's no reason to suspect her other than the fact that she never gets a POV. (Neither does Lan in the main books, but he does in NS.)
396. Siuanfan
Speaking of "saying no word that is not true", that has some leeway to it, I mean the words "yes" and "no" are true in some contexts but not in others.

"Verin, did you kill Asmodean?"



... see that? Now in that pause, Verin could have been thinking something like "Do I want to answer this question honestly?" and then replied no to HERSELF, out loud. She's not lying until she says "I did not kill Asmodean." Otherwise she could claim she was saying 'yes' or 'no' out loud in response to something else, and NOT to your comment. She could claim she was ignoring you or didn't even hear you, lost in her little Brown world...
397. CBeats

best prediction list ever. ex: "Semirage vs Egwene = don't really care" hahaha

then, @205

"the neigh of the light" and "the one who comes with the hay" for bela vs Shaidar Haran hilarious!

Narg mentioned at any time = also hilarious

That "True WoT" link is the best thing ever, but I want to laugh and I'm not allowed to. Therefore, I can't look at it. Damn libraries!
Chiara Elvira
398. elvyelvy
well, gatheringstorm@380, I'm not a particular fan of everybody's-except-us-favourite-daughter heir, though she has her moments, but .... ok, the Spanking War was "interesting" (sort of) but not funny, at the moment I am in a very festive non-committal frolicking mood and enjoying uproariously (oh no, NOT AGAIN) this blog. So I will not get dragged into it

R.Fife Abroad you might possibly become the most hated person of the blog. The Pot of Doom will see you punished and tortured until you breath (to myself only of course) the name of Asmo's killer.

Luke M
399. lmelior
R Fife Abroad != R Fife

The typos give it away. So he was kidding about knowing Asmodean's killer. Just thought I'd throw that out there lest anyone be fooled.

Definitely balefire. Just enough to get rid of all the crazy posts so Leigh won't find out how bad we've been
Yeah, somebody should let her know not to bother catching up with the comments. At least not until she's done with the re-read. We do, after all, want her to:

A. finish the posts.
B. have some brain cells left to do so.

Speaking of which:

Nae'blis = Neigh bliss?
Galen Brinn
400. GatheringStorm
Nae'blis = Neigh bliss?

"I'm the man in the box"...I can't get that song out of my head now.

elvyelvy @ 398,

I agree, Elayne does have her moments. Unfortunately (and maybe this is just me), her moments of uber self-centered stupidity just stick with me more than the good ones.

And wow! 400 posts!
Amar Ramraj
401. aiel1219
@ Rfife Abroad
Did they make u swear on an oath road... and how exactly was it worded??? mb we can come up with some sortta loophole.... seems that many of us are especially good at that...

Ohhh and who gets THE BIG VOICE at JordanCon... or do they pass it around... and if they do (pass it around), have u had your turn as yet??

... I wonder y I put so many "..." in my posts... most times I use em unnecessarily...
Amar Ramraj
402. aiel1219
Oh another shower thought about y we should cut the girls some slack when comparing their many many captures as comparwed to the guys. (especially the super girls) Here goes:
The girls are uber big in opposing the dark (and general AS bullpoo) just like the guys. U know, with forsaken n darkfriends and stipid gullable idiots after them. However, the girls are not Ta'veren, they don't have the advantage of The Pattern going all squiggly around them to give them what they need. To support this point, do you really see Mat and the Red Hand surviving all those near misses without his Ta'verenosity or Perin bringing together all those TR folks in Emond's Field so they can tell the white Cloaks to bugger off without his Ta'verenosity, lets face it, he was gonna give his big ass over to the WC, WILLINGLY!!!

And I still think Morgase should be given credit for escaping Rahvin, look at the King of Illain(stepanos or whatever his name was), he got mind farked and basically took it up the derrier till he died.
EDIT: He did not die (mah bad). He's still takin itt up the rear, being stuck in the White Tower n all. (THanks fss@403 for pointing this out)

Anyways cut the girls some slack (if you can find it in your hearts). I can see my self getting farked till I shutup. LOL!!!

P.S. NO!!! I DO NOT think of the WoT girls in the shower often!

and yes I am makin a concious effort not to use the "..."
403. fss
Ummm - Aiel1219 - have you read KoD? If so, there's no excuse. If not, don't read the next paragraph (massive spoilers!).

Mattin Stephanos is alive and well, kidnapped by Elaida and held in the White Tower, guarded by Reds, and has run into and been impressed by Egwene.

And I think no one should hold the Rahvin situation against Morganse. On the other hand, since then she's been held by the Children, the Seanchan (again, no blame on that one), and the Shaido.
404. Rebecca Starr
Hi from JordanCon everyone!!

Just to add the female perspective:

Boink: Galad
Marry: Mat - life will never be boring!
Kill: Padan Fain of course
Amar Ramraj
405. aiel1219
@403 fss

I read KOD abt 4 years back I think... and it's very very foggy for me... SOOOO many lil ppl that it's hard to remember more than what my mind takes as major events. So... I'll edit my previous post.
thanks :) and if u read the edit pls lemme know if I got it wrong again. It's hard for me to pick up THOSE books for more than a flash read.
406. almuric
Ok, since we have some time, here's my theory on Padan Fain. To make it short, the pattern didn't expect him and he'll be responsible for the permanent death of Shai'tan. He's like the mule in the second Foundation book that threw psychohistory for a loop. Or Mr. Smith in The Matrix. He's an edge case. He wasn't expected nor accounted for.

I think the pattern/wheel didn't plan for him going to Shadar Logoth and becoming something different. As far as I know, there was no prophecy about him. There've been no foretellings about him. I think he's an anomaly. One that will break the pattern for all time, allowing humanity to live free of Shai'tan's influence for the rest of time.

Well, that's just my theory. I still haven't read the last couple of books. People have been speculating on whether this Tarmon Gaidon will be the last one. Fain is why I think it will be. I could be wrong.
Galen Brinn
407. GatheringStorm
I don't hold Morgase being mind frakked by Rhavin against her. It's other peoples' stupidity which is NOT a result of being Compulsed that I rail against (cough *Egwene* cough *Elayne* cough).
408. wsean
406- I always figured that Fain would become this kind of dark spirit who would keep the evil of Aridhol going through the Ages, until it eventually came full circle the next time this Age came about.

407- Yeah, I agree on Morgase. I'm actually still annoyed that she hasn't found out it was Rahvin who messed with her brain. I mean yeah, that's gotta be scary, but at least she'd know she wasn't just being woolheaded over a man or whatever.
Amar Ramraj
409. aiel1219
Here's a theory about grounds in teh books I can pinpoint except my general impressions and semiformed thputhts... and it is a vague theory...mb some1 else will refine it. Here goes:
Fain's evil battles with the DO's rand is supposed to seal the DO back up. Mb Rand spills Fains blood n his gets spilled in da process... they mix with the DO's essence breaking free(mb just as the last seal is broken?) and BAM fain's n the DO's evil wrestle with each other for all eternity while Rand'd essence keeps them locked in. Rand will have to give up something huge... some part of himself... I rememberin tLoC he thinks that to seal the bore n live he has to die... but live that way... is it worth it???(or summn very close to that)
410. Shadow_Jak
About that pesky first oath...

Verin, administering the three oaths to a new Sister, "Repeat after me, I will speak no word that isn't true".

Trudy Truthteller, newly raised, very literal minded, young Aes Sedai, "I will speak no word that isn't true".
Verin, "I will make no weapon for one man to kill another"
Trudy, "True".
Verin, "No, you have to say it just like I did".
Trudy, "uh, er...true".
Verin, "You MUST speak the words!"
Trudy, working her lips, strain clear on her face, "True... true... true. True!"
Verin, "Swear the Second Oath!"
Trudy, wailing in despair and desperation,"True! True! TRUUUUUEEEE!"

*Clawing her eee PC from her belt pouch, she opens the fastest loading editor known to this and any other Age and begins typing furiously*
"Thank the Light! At least I can still type other words!"
411. Randalator
Boink: Lanfear.
Most beautiful woman in the world. That's gotta be on my checklist somewhere.

Kill: Rhadam Asunawa
I would invite him to a "We suck bigtime" festival, together with Dain Bornhald, Weiramon Saniago, Elaida do Avrini a'Roihan, Alviarin Freidhen, Katerine Alruddin, Galina Casban, Sevanna, and many many more. Then I'll have them hung, drawn, and quartered! And whipped! And boiled...until...until...until they've had enough. And then I will do it again! And when I've finished I will take all the little bits, and I will JUMP on them! And I will carry on jumping on them until I get blisters, or I can think of anything even more unpleasant to do...

Marry: Berelain
Serial boinkage with the most beautiful contemporary woman in the world. Wheeeeeeeeeeee...!
Richard Fife
412. R.Fife
R.Fife Abroad was indeed me! I was posting on someone elses computer and did not bother to log in, so I used a semi-cognomen.

Tom Doherty had the big voice without assistance, Harriet had the big voice with (a kareoki machine, yay).

For anyone watched the opening ceremony skit, I was volunteer Mat. yes, I was truely a volunteer and had not seen the script prior. Good fun.

Rebecca Star: You're here, nifty! So are so many people, you peoples! Find me and say hi! Kick me in the bloody ashes if needs be!

Oh, and the Seanchan poker tourney was cool. Oddly, have not had much time to pester Leigh, been busy either volunteering or pestering other Tor people. Will correct that today, for all our sakes. And yes, Aiel, I'll ask her if she can make a special "Leigh's adventures at Jordancon" blog.

OK, breakfast is about to open and I'm famished. Although, the free breakfast, while cool, isn't near as nice as the 2 hours of open bar in the evening. Rockin!
413. happi
@406 almuric, @408 wsean, @409 aiel1219
I like this train of thought - fain wrestling with the dark one - would be nice to see it right at Shayol Gul - right over the lava flow - and then Fain bites the DO's finger right off!!!
414. almuric
I think biting the finger and lava flow is too derivative. If I had to imagine what would happen...

Hmm, I guess the forces of good are up in the Blight. Hopefully all the channelers (damane, Ashaman and Wise Ones along with the regular Aes Sedai) are taking care of the icky creatures that live there. (Cameo by a sandworm.) Fain is still skulking about. Rand is about ready to head into Shayol Ghul when Shaidar Haran shows up for a little mano-a-mano. Fain comes along, tries to stab Rand with his little dagger and gets SH instead. The interaction between the two is pretty intense, but since SH is just an aspect/avatar of the DO, the dagger wins.

This pisses off the DO and he comes out of the bore (somebody broke the other seals, maybe) but the SL taint entered the DO via the link it had with SH. He's now really weakened, but strong enough to wipe the floor with Fain. Then Rand, wielding Callandor in one had, the Cheodan Kal ter'angreal in the other and squeezing his little man angreal between his butt cheeks pulls in all the saidar in the world and balefires the DO. This is enough power to turn time back a few millenia and mankind gets a do-over without the influence of evil.

Saidin/Saidar is fully used up. No more channeling. No more stuck-up, we-know-what's-right-for-you Aes Sedai. And no sequels written by sucky writers.

Well, that's how I'd end it. I'm not saying it would win the Pulitzer.
Amar Ramraj
415. aiel1219
@412 R.Fife
Sounds like u're havin a Blast... I'm so jealous!!!
But have loads of fun n I hope u return bearing gifts...even if it's not the lodown on Who Killed Asmo... at the least a few humorous stories r expected... else u'll be runnin from the RRRBFG FOR SOME TIME.

How did u know I wanted...r u a mind reader or what? LOL!!! ok ok... it's obvious I wud beeeeeggg for that. Thanks. :)

Dangit!!! Those "..." things appear whenever I get excited!!!
416. Rebecca Starr
R. Fife - You were Mat? Nice job!! I'm walking around with my hair braided a la Nynaeve :)
Joseph Blaidd
417. SteelBlaidd
@happi 391

This something that has been a long standing rant in my head.

The Forsaken are always talking about him in comparison to LTT, and I just reread the scene a the the beginning of FoH where Rand is thinking about how all the Aiel but Aviendha treat him as either "Prophecy made flesh, and thus not flesh at all, or a red adder loose among the children."

Most everybody's thinking about the Dragon Reborn centers on the last couple of days where he "tainted the source, went mad, and killed his whole family."

The AS are especially egregious about this and I would have expected at least one White or brown to do a paper on "Personality rebirth among Heroes Tide to the Wheel that could be applied here.

The Logic goes like this:

1. On occasion, a person who does some great heroic service to the stability of the Pattern can be bound to the Wheel.

2. These Heroes are then reused by the Pattern as part of it's self correcting mechanisms.

3. Theses Heroes may or may not be Ta'veran as well.

Now this next part may rely on info the AS don't have but it should be postulatable if you think about it.

4. Reborn Heroes are recognizable from life to life ( Thom and his Birgite story research), because they tend to behave in repeated recognizable ways.

Conclusion A: Fundamental Skills and Character Traits carry over from life to life. (Ex. Birgite: Bow, Romancing Gidal Cain, Wild Adventures, not a Noble)

Conclusion B: The Wheel Spins out Heroes because their behavior under stress is predictable and stabilizing to the Pattern.

5.(this May not be know to the AS) LTT aka. The Dragon was a Man of sufficient Channeling power/skill, Military ability, leadership skill, political savvy, and pure strength of WILL and CHARACTER, that he was First Among the Servants and Supreme Leader of the Forces of Light in the first war in millenia.
In other words the AoL Randland equivalent of the AMERLYN, chosen out of a much much bigger pool of possible than currently available.

MAJOR Conclusion: This guy is going to be at least a smart and as hard to shift or manipulate as Suain Sanche and He knows it.

But what do we see, The reaction to the Forsaken is "OMG Godlike manifestation of Evil."
Rand, reincarnation of the man that a number of Forsaken were so jealous of they switched sides to get out from under his Shadow, and he still pwns their 4$$3s gets, "Young, male, hayseed. Must be stupid with no sense of duty. Leading him around by the nose should be a peice of Cake."

This is FAIL.
418. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Randalator @411
Serial boinkage LOL. While I didn't really envision it like that, life's definitely never gonna be boring if you marry Berelain.

SteelBlaidd @417
Good piece of logic there. I can guarantee most of the contemporary Aes Sedai haven't thought it out like that. Not even those in close contact with Rand. It's the reason he keeps throwing them for a loop. They're all stuck in their own little worlds .
419. Another Wolf Dream
HAHA! I just read a Douglas Adams comment! Awesome.

Boink: Breane Taborwin (as long as Lamgwin doesn't catch us). Thom knows what he's talkin about, usually.

Marry: No. There are no female characters in this story I would want to be married to.

Kill: Rand al'Thor. I'm sick of this sniveling bullshit. Head so far up own ass can taste his tonsils. And later on, of couse, degenerating to the point of invalid. can't channel for sickness, can't fight for side wound/SL dagger, newly one-handed in KoD, and can't actually seem to win a battle and stay on his feet. Cairhien was planned by the Aiel chiefs, and he damn near hooped it. Seanchan at Falme were beaten by MYTHICAL HELPERS! Later, fought Seanchan until he turned on his own men and freaked out with the lightening bolt. Screw him. Let him die on Shayol Ghul and Perrin/Faile can run the show on this side, Mat/Tuon on the Seanchan side. Game is played.
420. Orideth
@414 almuric

I'm not sure how serious this theory of yours is, but here's a rebuttal anyawy.

If I recall, it was mentioned elsewhere that balefiring the Dark One is not possible (even assuming he would have a corporeal form to use it on), since he exists outside the Pattern and has no "life thread" to be burned away. Beyond that, if destroying a few cities with balefire nearly caused the Pattern to unravel, balefiring one of the fundamental forces of the universe out of existence thousands of years back would certainly be enough to do the trick.
Kevin Morgan
421. DrMorganstien
we can't stop at 420!

NOTE: that just made me laugh, since at 420 I know several people that do, in fact, stop all useful activity
422. birgit
IIRC, all Trollocs speak the same language as everyone else. They just don't normally communicate with humans.

There is a trolloc language and writing.
Blake Engholm
423. UncrownedKing
@ 419 AnotherWolfDream

I see, but tell us how you really feel about Rand and his insistant blundering? haha
424. HeWhoComesWithTheBreakfeast
Re 414:

"...Then Rand, wielding Callandor in one had, the Cheodan Kal ter'angreal in the other and squeezing his little man angreal between his butt cheeks... "

I laughed so hard i nearly had to change my underwear!
Blake Engholm
425. UncrownedKing
Can someone, anyone, give me the dirty details of JordanCon??? Or is everyone that went trying to catch up on work?

Lets get our priorities stright guys'n'gals.
1)the wild world of WOT
4)work (maybe :) )
Galen Brinn
426. GatheringStorm
Lol, DrMorgenstein. At 420, I think I was lying awake in bed wondering why I was lying awake in bed. Random nights of restlessness...gotta love 'em.

The withdrawals of not having a new posting are really getting bad, apparently.
427. miximixi
Had to do some urgent work so I'm very late to this strange but wonderfull party.

Have not silent-laughed so much in ages. Still smiling at some of the posts.

Kill : Lanfear and Berelain. Just because all the men are crazy over them

Boink : That really tall Aiel (can’t remember his name). Size matters.

Marry : Rand. His mutliple personalities should keep life interesting and he has that cool fire sword. OK, I’m a sucker for a red head with blue eyes. LOL!
Amar Ramraj
428. aiel1219
No new post yet... mb no new post till wednesday...
*twitch twitch shiver shiver*

I know I know... sum1 give us ideas on who they think Rand is gonna have destroy destroy the Seals, or will he bust em all himself.

They do have to be destroyed before he can seal the bore properly: LTT wants em destroyed and Herid Pel left this note for Rand b4 Sammael had him killed (concerning what Rand asked him abt sealing the bore): "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can
build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.

Proof enough for me... besides I Had to find something to do other than plan training sessions and help lame trainers with stupid trainees...none of em even know abt tWoT *fuming righteous indignation!!*

ok mb I shouldn't talk abt co-workers that way.. and I'll stop ranting now...I promise(for this post)

*twitch twitch shiver shiver*
Richard Fife
429. R.Fife
Heya peoples!

FYI, I have written a con write up, including some big (big!) stuff from the con in regards to the series, but I'm going to wait for Leigh's recap before I post my own.

Yes Aiel, she is doing a Con recap, although I do not know when it is supposed to go up. It might be the Wednesday post, though. *shrug* I don't think she got all that much reading and re-read writing done.
430. LynnOH
WOT males to kill; Fain/Ordith, Masema, Bornhald, LTT so Rand could get some PEACE, all the male Forsaken, Taim,

fantasy Chippendales; Gaul,Elyas,Aram,Mat,Davrem B.,Tallanvor

marry;Gareth Bryne
Ofer Nave
432. odigity
I'm looking forward to the Con recap, but I really want to know as little as possible about AMOL. Even subtle hints can have the same effect as straight spoilers.

(Whenever I think of spoilers, I'm reminded of what I think was an old rasfw-rj post by Novack: "Caeser dies. Frodo lives. Jesus does both. There, did I spoil those for you, too?")
Richard Fife
433. R.Fife
Brandon was actually really good about not giving us any spoilers or hints, honestly. He did not reveal a single of the viewpoints in the book, and I don't think it was just Alan, Maria, and Harriet hovering around him with Aes Sedai worthy glares. He almost buckled at the very end, but otherwise, we actually did hear "Read And Find Out" several times during the con. And that is all I'm saying about the con until the recap 'cept for this:

Sam Mickel
434. Samadai
Glad to see that this posting is still going crazy, I mean strong.

Bring on the info from Jordancon. the more the better.
435. Zhull
Boink: Selucia - training all of her life to be a nursemaid/bodyguard to Tuon makes for a lot of pent up sexual aggression. Plus the whole half-shaved half-braided look can make for some interesting developments.

Marry: Min - Too fun! Plus I have a secret fantasy of being called a woolheaded sheepherder by a lady in tight pants who loves knives and hates embroidery.

Kill: Loial - Book-loving Giants with big noses and long ears freak me out.
Blake Engholm
436. UncrownedKing
@435 Zhull

"Kill: Loial - Book-loving Giants with big noses and long ears freak me out."

(Fumeing from the ears)
That is so so so very wrong I can't even form words. Like stepping on a kitten, or shooting puppies. For Shame!
Amar Ramraj
437. aiel1219
Thanks R.Fife for giving hope to some of us lesser mortals :) I'll be reading all da blogs on JordanCon I can find but I am really looking forward to Leigh's post and your comments and if u do a blog/post thingy of yer own BE SURE U GIVE US A LINK!
Same goes for the rest of u lucky souls who got to attend (right now I only remember R.Fife but I think a few others mentioned they maybe/were going)
*grumble* mutters"Why did I have to be half way across the world"
...I'll get a life sooon...err..I promise?? LOL!!! :)
P.S. I'll ignore certain Loial comments, before I start my ranting again.
438. jlfitz
@ 366 grayfox

I like your list of captures, serious Damsel in Distress theme going on.

You need to add:
Min - 1 (with Rand in the Box)
Morgase - 1 (WC - even though she went on her own, she had to "escape" to leave)
Elayne - 1 (BA - Far Madding)
Logain - 1 Salidar, he certainly was detained once he was healed.

Some of these characters have done their fare share of capturing too.

Egwene - 1 (BA members)
Nynaeve - 2 (Seta, Moghedien)
Elayne - 2 (Seta, BA Members)
Min - 1 (Seta)
Suian - 0
Leane - 0
Faile - 0
Moiraine - 0
Morgase - 0

Rand - 1+ (He captures nations, peoples, and Asmodean)
Perrin - 0
Mat - 1 (Tuon, sort of)
Lan - 0
Rhuarc - 0 (probably quite a few gai'shain)
Loial - 0
Bayle Domon - 0
Gawyn - 0
Galad - 0
Logain - 0
Thom - 0

I guess good guys don't capture...
(Did I miss any?)
Sydo Zandstra
439. Fiddler

Logain captured 2 AS. ;)

And to answer the three questions...

Elayne (I cringe whenever I see text coming up in italic in her POV's...)


440. douglasm
The closest Brandon came to revealing any spoilers was discussing the structure of the 3 book split without naming anything. There are, apparently, four major plot arcs that occur simultaneously and don't affect each other very much before everyone finally gets back together (or at least starts interacting more) for the final buildup to Tarmon Gai'don. The Gathering Storm will include most (including the climaxes) of two of these and the beginnings of the other two, the second book will have the tail end of the first two and the rest of the other two, and the third will have the final buildup and Tarmon Gai'don.

There was also an audio recording of Robert Jordan dictating a scene in the prologue, but it seemed to me to be strictly a tone/mood setter for the book. I will be surprised if any of the characters in it (all of them completely new) are ever shown again.
Sam Mickel
441. Samadai
3 questions

boink: Semirhage only with as stated above, a mind condom. stimulate my pleasure centers. yeah.

marry: Graendal because I apparently have a thing for controlling women who like to mind-boink you.

kill: Faile is the most likely character at least from books 7-10
442. Mark-S
Boink - Lanfear. Age, Experience, & See below

Marry - Elayne. She's young, good looking, got the cash, all the responsibilities, and she's out on the road all the time. Plus if she gets too annoying, my beautiful psychotic girlfriend will take her out like the morning trash.

Kill - Asmodean (Then I'd know for sure who-dun-it)
444. hoping to be of the blood

I seem to have a little time on my hands this week, so I'll indulge in some guessing re the 4 plot arcs.

The west and the south will be as one as the seanchan are allied with native countries plus aiel, all under Perrin.

The white tower is united under eg and the ba purged. Mat and select seanchan help and merge with gareth.

Lan unites the north and defends against trolloc invasion.

The black tower splits and dreadlords are killed or expelled with logain, rand and elayne's andorans playing the major role

Forces of the light are ready for TG
445. Grinwell
Nice guess, Hoping to be@444!
There's so much closure to look forward to.

Just the list of baddies to deal with is overwhelming:
1. Arangar/Halima
2. Demandred
3. Graendal
4. Ishamael/Moridin
5. Lanfear/Cyndane
6. Moghedien
7. Mesaana
8. Semirhage/Anath
9. Padan Fain
10. Slayer
11. Masema
12. Black Ajah
13. Shaidar Haran
And oh yeah, 14. The Dark One.

I'm thinking that 3 books is a great idea. It'll be interesting to see if any are dispatched in The Gathering Storm or if they survive for a massive Last Battle Randestruction.

Go Bela!!!!
446. douglasm
The White Tower siege and the Black Tower split are definitely major things waiting to be resolved that I think will have to happen before the final book. Perrin, Galad's Whitecloaks, and the Seanchan are a good candidate for another one. I'm rather doubtful about Lan, though, and you forgot the rescue Moiraine expedition. There is absolutely no way Mat, Thom, and Noal facing down the Finns to bring her back is not going to be a major event, and the difficulty of getting back out of that place has been emphasized enough to make it being the focus of a major plot arc believable.

Sorry, but the one thing they did spoil for us is that Bela gets drawn and quartered. :-P

They actually did say that IIRC, but it was a joke reply to someone asking if Brandon could at least reveal something about what happens in The Gathering Storm.
447. Theodor89
The four plot arcs propably are:

1. Rand and company

2. Mat and company

3. Perrin and company

4. Egwene, White Tower, Black Tower
448. That Guy
Anyone know if they are going to release the portion of the new book that was read at Jordan Con?

I was unable to attend, and would like it if they would. I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but hey at least it is out there.
449. Grinwell
If Rand saw that happen to Bela he'd just balefire whoever did it into oblivion and get Bela back. You can't keep a good horse down ;)
450. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
miximixi @427
All Aiel, with an exception or two, are really tall.

Zhull @435
I don't suppose that marvelous bosom had anything to do with your choice to boink Selucia, did it?

Fiddler @439
Fireworks. Yeah, I can see the appeal.

Samadai @441
Another Graendal-lover. Hail to the vegetables.

Mark-S @442
That's evil. And inspired. I am not worthy.
451. Smatt
Ok got to join in on the 3 questions....

Boink - All those women with the nicley turned ankles and calfs.

Marry - Nynaeve because my bits are going to need some serious medical attention after all those women, and she has a nice set of lower legs herself.

Kill - Faile and Elayne. They just annoy the arse off me.
452. Digital_Eon
On the subject of why women seem to get captured so often... Men don't get captured, they die. How often do we see women die in the series? That's because they get captured instead. They're not incompetent because of it... and doesn't being captured beat dying, in many cases? (Galina and similar examples excepted.)

When was the last time a man was captured that wasn't Rand? Exactly.
Roger Powell
453. forkroot
Lan was captured in Far Madding (admittedly as a result of being with Rand.) I love the roof scene right beforehand when Lan is trying to convince Rand to let him go, and Rand responds "When the sun turns green!" -- we get a peek at the deep respect/brotherhood that has developed between the two.
454. Aye Aye Sedai
Ok R Fife and the others will be handed over to the Children of the Light whose Questioners will make them talk and they will regret that first kiss their father ever gave their mother.

Where are all the Jordon Con blogs? - I find nothing out on the web.

I specifically want to know about the following Panels

- if Pillowfriends spank are they Darkfriends?

- Hoofs of Flame - insight into the archetypical Fantasy Hero that is Bela

- Cross Bonding - An integral look at the relationship of a Black Tower Asha'man bonding a Green Aes Sedai who has bonded him.

- Being your own Master - A practical training course on how to use the A'dam - finding your inner suldam/damnae.

You are all under compulsion to talk - now.
Richard Fife
455. R.Fife
Your pathetic jedi mind tricks will not work on me!

Oops, wrong universe...

I will say this, BPFFs did come up (Best Pillow Friends Forever).

That is all I will say. I was sworn to secrecy about Bela.
456. hoping to be of the blood
Aye Aye Sedai@454

Are you refering to being the Master of your own Damane?
I have achieved something similar, but not for long.
457. dcole78
NO!!! The day is over and no new read through....NO!!! *twitch* *twitch* *twitch* I can't take it...I can't take it!!! *sounds of screaming and breaking glass and what sounds like a cat screaming for its life*
458. Aye Aye Sedai
@456 Hot a'Dam!


Leigh - where are you ? What have you to tell us?

I can't turn the page until I hear the beep ............

ARRGGGGHH - What happens to RAND, MAT and PERRIN next ?????
459. CBeats
Aye Aye Sedai and hoping to be of the blood:

bahahaha "master of your own damane"

->on a side note, is that how you guys pronounce "damane" - as in "domain", but with less "o"? I always pronounced it that way until I heard the audio version. it pronounces damane as "dahmahnee"

first time i heard that, i was like wtf?
460. wsean
I had a lot of pronunciation issues with the audiobooks at first. Aiel, Taim, damane, Siuan, etc. But now that I've listened to almost all the books, I doubt I could go back to my original pronunciations--these have been drilled into my head.

Incidentally, the readers on the audiobooks, Michael Kramer and Kate Reading, are wonderful. I've been listening to these books on my iPod while running, for *literally* years now, and really enjoyed them. I'm on Winter's Heart.

The funny thing is that at this slow listening pace, the pacing issues I always had with the later books have largely vanished. I find that I'm more inclined to just take each scene as it comes and enjoy it.

Still not looking forward to CoT. :/
461. happi
A Real Question!

I'm trying to catchup with the re-read. At the end of Ch9 - TSR - after Rand kills all the trollocs and fades - he tells Moiraine about Lanfear and that he'll tell her his plans tomorrow. Then he thinks to himself that it was Lanfear that inadvertently gave him the last clue he needed. Does anyone know what he means by that? What was it she said that was a clue?
Richard Fife
462. R.Fife
I think it was the thing about "binding the shadowsworn". She gave him the hint about a forsaken teacher, and he thought to bait them along so he could bind Asmo himself.
Blake Engholm
463. UncrownedKing
@460 Wsean

Im on last chapter of CoT. 30 chapters of nothing about to climax into . . . . . nothing. sweet. All we get is info dumps in CoT but nothing else.


Where the 'F' are all the TOR people with anything about JordanCon. I say we riot or boycott (ok boycott is not an option at all) but lets burn this mother down!
464. gagecreedlives
UncrownedKing I agree.

Ah, there's no justice like angry mob justice.

But could we at least do it at the old mill. We can get some cider.
Richard Fife
465. R.Fife
*panic* Peace favor your swords! I'm sure Wednesday will reward us well. But, if we all want to go to the old mill anyway, I do enjoy me some cider.
466. hoping to be of the blood
just a play on words, a bad pun at that
Your pronunciation is corrrect, suh!

Yes, we need info
I have an image of more desperation rather than anger.
Like a nest of baby birds, beaks agape, heads bobbing shakily on skinny necks waiting for any juicy morsel to be fed to us.
Richard Fife
467. R.Fife
Fine, here's a morsal, and I swear that this is exactly true all Aes Sedai style.

When fans were begging for scraps (little bird like) of Brandon, he asked Alan (one of RJ's assistants) if he could say anything. Alan replied:
"Tell them about how Bela gets drawn and quartered."

There's your snippit, now be patient!
468. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
The addicts are going into withdrawal. Why else do you think they are alternating between irritability and rambling incoherence?
469. gagecreedlives
Well strictly speaking for myself but alternating between irritability and rambling incoherence is pretty much par for the course.

And yes I am wearing a tutu
Chiara Elvira
470. elvyelvy
Oh my, I went to sleep with the image of the Fantasy Chippendales in my mind.
And I couldn't get it out of my mind. Early afternoon and it's still here, lodged in the remains of my brain (Leigh where are you?).

Can you picture it?
A vast crowd is assembled before a stage: Maidens, Windfinders, Aes Sedai (a few brown shawls betray their supposed daydreaminess) Wise Ones, scattered Seanchan nobility and behind them women from all lands and stations.

To rolling music Gaul appears and starts dancing. The veil being taken off from his shoufa brings a loud cheers from maidens. Rhuarc joins him, and the crowds is positively enthusiastic.
In the middle of his performance Mat pops seemingly out of nowhere.
Black broadbrimmed hat flies right in the hands of a petite AS of the Green, a Windfinder tries to snatch it from her hands and a small OP-operated wrestling match starts right away. Several maidens start betting on the winner.
The shriek of a Seanchan lady, who just broke one of her laquered fingernails in order to see better, restore some quiet.
The audience turn to the stage where Mat is tapping his foot, not pleased he is being ignored. The Green and the Windfinder sit back, smoothing disheveled clothes. THe Seanchan Lady whimpers at her broken nail while letting out a stream of unintelligible oaths. "Men", "wool-headed" and "lummox" can be faintly made out.
Music resumes.
Mat's coat flies too, landing on the stage (much safer that way, he thinks), then he throws his ashandarei.
It freezes in midflight, and a large plump Brown looks guiltily around. Suddenly a damane has the wooden shaft burst in pieces no bigger than dustgrains.
Chaos ensues. AS stare down at the Brown. Windfinders shout that they could have done better than the damane. Marathdamane scream that the High Ladies had to be protected. AS scream that Seanchan understand nothing at all, and can't talk properly as well.
Wise ones add that they had dreamt the ashandarei would hurt nobody, and they all should be punished for their unruly behaviour, anyway. Digging holes and fill them up again for a start.
Menawhile maidens are all veiled and spears are retrieved from under the tables.
Everybody starts shouting and beating everybody else, including Seanchan ladies who completely disregard their lacquered nails.
The OP is massively wielded. In a corner Elayne looks at Mat with a disapproving frown, while Nynaeve mouthes soundlessly a "It's all your fault, Matrim Cauthon".
The place is quickly destroyed, leaving a large number of bruised and disarrayed women looking at each other.
A final punch of a Windfinder to a Seanchan damane's face seals the end of the Fantasy Chippendales Wild Show.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Hmm, gagecreed, would you and your tutu care to join my favourite chippendales? I couldn't resist that too.

BTW, instead of quartering little Bela, why not R.Fife for being uncooperative?
Cider is fine to me, beer sounds much better though...
Lannis .
471. Lannis
gagecreed @ 469: Sa-weet! Me too! Mine's sky-blue-pink with glittery swirls... how about yours?

And no, I haven't been hovering, lurking, laughing along... okay, maybe... waiting for a crust of something...

FYI: If you're friends with Brandon Sanderson on Facebook, you'd have seen some JordanCon pics with him tagged. The costumes look great! (My tutu totally wouldn't fit in, though...)
472. gagecreedlives
elvyelvy it would be a pleasure and an honour to be amongst the chippendales.

And dont worry your not the first person that couldnt resist.

I think I might have had a bit too much beer for a Tuesday night. So I will stick with the cider. But you enjoy by all means.
craig thrift
473. gagecreedlives
Lannis my tutu is such a mixture of bright colours it would make a tinker blush
Blake Engholm
474. UncrownedKing
@ 470
A disturbing rendition of how all female characters in the series should be punished. But I applaud it.

I have now reached a new low in my withdrawl. In order stem the *ticks*,*twitches*,*Chinraise*, and *headdesks* I have begun going through the sword froms to find my inner chi, and try and center myself.

'Twisting the Wind', followed by 'The Falcon Stoops'starts the battle with my inner demons. Next comes, 'Apple Blossoms in the Wind' followed by my personal favorite 'Heron Wading in the Rushes'. My invisible sparing partner counters with 'The Kingfisher takes a Silverback', and I'm forced into the 'Leopard in the Tree'. My opponent gives me an opening and I strike with 'Arc of the Moon' which sets him off balance. I land the glancing blow with 'Low Wind Rising', and the killing blow comes with a flawless rendition of 'Ribbon in the Air'.

Nothing like a little exercise to keep your mind off trying to get my WOT-fix. I feel like Tyrone Biggums (The crack adict from Chappelle's Show).

Chiara Elvira
475. elvyelvy
king@474 what punishment are you talking about?
that was just a party a bit too wild...
Blake Engholm
476. UncrownedKing
I say any physical dmg done to thsoe women is deserved. Punishment for tormenting me for the last month or so.
477. LynnOH
Will there be honeycakes with the cider? I'll bring a

forkroot veg. for Bela.
Deborah Jones
478. NanaD
All of this reminds me of childbirth. Back in the day before ultrasounds and induced labor. And let us not forget, NO DRUGS!

Waiting and hoping everything would be alright. Never knowing what the last moment would bring. Boy or girl, healthy or not.

Our due date is tomorrow. Light willing we will not have to wait until afternoon to read the news from Jordancon and the latest installment in this wonderful series.

Until then every one remember to breathe through the pain. It will be over soon, and our little bundle of joy will be in cyberspace forever.
479. cps2195

Thanks for the childbirth scenario. My wife is due in 2 weeks with our second son. I'm already practicing me HE-HEE's.

haven't had a chancde to weigh in yet so here goes:

Boink: Lanfear. I'm mean c'mon she is the most beautiful women in the world. Who wouldn't want to hit that?

Marry: Birgitte. She would definitely be a wife who loved watching football and having a beer. Also she seems to really like little kids. Maybe if I took a frying pan to my face she'd be more into me.

Kill: Mazrim Taim. Because the voices in my head keep telling me to
Marie Adomako
480. MSedai
I've lurked around the insanity enough, and now I can't stand to be left out.

Boink: Mat. Every girl secretly loves the bad boy. Plus, he's sort of the non-threatening bad boy.

Marry: Uhh...I think most of the guys in this series are too bizarre to be the marrying type. I mean Rand=crazy, Perrin=pushover, Mat=bad boy, Thom=too old, Juilin=too sneaky, Logain=too scary, Lan=suicidal/mute (although Nynaeve seems to be enjoying him in private, soo...), and most of the rest are forsaken or dark friends, or politicians, ick!

Kill: Lanfear for being a sneaky bitch (well, that goes for all of the Forsaken, male and female), Elaida for being an idiot, Elayne ditto, Faile ditto, etc.

Is it telling that the only definitive answer I have for this exercise is the boink?

Also, Mark S is definitely an evil genius, he would shut us all up about Asmodean, and cps2195, frying pan to the face is also genius.
Crystal McMillan
481. CDragon27
okay I had to weigh in on this.
Boink: Rand (because guys with a death wish won't be clingy..which also points for Lan)
Marry Perrin: the gold eye, wolf talking, broad shoulder thing is very sexy and with a non crazy wife I think he would be better.
Kill: Mazraim Taim because he needs it. badly!
and for the alternative life style vote: Boink Brigitte (cause if I swung that way, she's the one I'd pick as the most fun)
Chiara Elvira
482. elvyelvy
*breathing deeply through the pain* owch, frying pan to the face? the extent some men would go to boink a pretty lass.

Marry? NOOOOO allergy spots and bubbles and everything are appearing on my skin face hands. People in front of me wonder what's happening gosh I feel the anaphylactic shock creeping up on me..... quick, balefire the post and bring me baaaaaaaac.....
Now that is's clear I'm not the marriage-wreath type (WoTland and realland are overcrowded with men unqualified for the job), let's go to
Boink: Mat AND Rhuarc (if I can keep far from Amys's wrath long enough for ... *blushes*)
Kill: way too long list so I'll keep it short to none, I'm pretty confident TG coming will clear up some rubble for us.
Luke M
483. lmelior
Um, peoples...what part of this:
Once again, a reminder that I’m going out of town for JordanCon, so Monday’s post will be the only one going up next week; regular entries will resume the following Wednesday. (emphasis mine)
gave you the idea there would be a post on Monday? Taken straight from the beginning of Part 9.
Blake Engholm
484. UncrownedKing
I was always under knew it would be Wed. i just wanted some JordanCon infor today. I mean common, we have waited a week. Over a week. But I don't work at TOR and its not with in my power.

I mean common, no pictures, quotes,crazy off topic anything that happened. Weak Tor Weak.
John Massey
485. subwoofer
484?! Great Googly Moogly! At this point there are way too many threads to wade through to put in my two cents right now. I go away for two weeks to get married and this is what happened?! For all the chuckle heads that decided to schedule Jordancon at the same time- nyahhhhhhh!
p.s. If anyone has the opportunity- Go to Jamaica- beautiful country, beautiful people- beautiful weather. Good times.
p.p.s. darn all you guys for bringing in future book stuff- cheaters! all of you!-
Finkel is Einhorn?! Einhorn is Finkel?!
Can't wait for Mat to have one of those moments- Boink
John Massey
486. subwoofer
Boink Lanfear- yup I'd tap that- naked on a stick. Provided she doesn't want to be held and talk after..... and my wife lets me.... and she was real.
Lannis .
487. Lannis
subwoofer @ 485: "great googly moogly"?! Um... does Jamaica get Maggie and the Ferocious Beast?

Glad to hear you had a good wedding/honeymoon/vacay. Congratulations! :)
488. bookworm
@485 subwoofer. It took you two weeks to get married?

I suppose the chuckleheads think that you should have shortened your wedding and had it at JordanCon (it's a themed wedding).

Re: a lot of you others. My, my, what a murderous lot some of you seem to be. You sound like members of the Cutters, "kill - them - all".
John Massey
489. subwoofer
Lannis@487- Thank you so much, and yes, they have satellite TV in Jamaica- not that I saw much...
Bookworm- its called a honeymoon. Tried the themed wedding idea- fell flat- would not of had a wedding if I went that far- she's the adult in the relationship- Blogging like a champion and all- wife still loves me.... so far, so good.
Luke M
490. lmelior
Uncrowned @484
Not meant for you then, I was just catching up on the last 100 or so posts. I agree some JordanCon stuff would be pretty interesting, though I'm not as anxious to read it. I figure they can't let on too much new info...maybe unveil the new cover or something. It seemed like more of a meet and greet, and I'll just be jealous I couldn't make it.

Kinda like golf, great to go, not so much to watch.
491. bookworm
"I go away for two weeks to get married".

Oh. You got married and went away for two weeks. I get it.

Congratulations, newlywed!
Kristen Cook
492. CeistaExiste
OK, ok, I can't get this song out of my head. Do ya'll know it?

"Little Sister, can't you find another way?
No more living life behind the Shadow...."

Queens of the Stone Age yo!

Ha, I remember Rand called Moiraine little sister once.
493. bookworm
@492 CeistaExiste

I think that was LTT talking to Moiraine. AoL Aes Sedai talking...
494. Siuanfan
Man, we are really fiending for new posts. Perhaps we should start taking bets on which main-level Light-side characters will *not* survive the end of the series.

(Rand doesn't count, come on!)

I'm going to guess Nynaeve, Mat, and Berelain kick their respective buckets.

Okay, that aside, I have to share something. I just started Winter's Heart in my own re-read, and I came across the only rational sequence of thought ever thunked by a character considering the plight of the world. Seriously, if... any the other decision-making characters ever had their minds violated by a rational thought, it should have been this one. It comes courtesy of Toveine Gazal:

... But a new kind of Healing? By an Accepted? That was unlikely bordering on impossible, but she HAD SEEN THE IMPOSSIBLE HAPPEN BEFORE, so she tucked it away.

Come on. All the PoVs we've seen involving someone having to make a decision, hearing news (Elaida's the worst perpetrator of this) and then not moving or moving wrongly because what they're hearing was 'impossible.' Argh!

Okay, and finally, I have a bone to pick. Wtf, RJ? You're driving me crazy with these names. Seaine, Saerin, Pevara, Therava, Falion, Faolain, Renaile, Reanne. I keep going 'wait is that the one who pledges to Egwene or the evil Black Ajah? Is this the one Elaida set to find the BA or is this the other one with the ego complex? Red Ajah, or Green? Yellow?! Does it matter?! Is this an Aiel or a Windfinder? Auugh!
John Massey
495. subwoofer
493- I think Bookworm is right. LTT moments hold a fond place in my heart. When Rand learns to embrace what LTT could show him them he may be a happier person... if he doesn't go crazy or have LTT take control of his body... but he doesn't have to I am going to go ahead in the series like every other scmuck out there worry about going sadin crazy as he cleansed sadin. Just LTT crazy because he has a roommate in his head that wants his name added to the lease.
John Massey
496. subwoofer
It would be interesting if Rand could add LTT's power to his own though... both of them tapping Sadin and Rand controlling it. Then he could really whoop some Forsaken a$$.
Kristen Cook
497. CeistaExiste
Bookworm -- hey I was going to say that! You beat me to my own correction :)
Galen Brinn
498. GatheringStorm
*twitches*...*shakes*...need info...need posts...brains...*twitches*...*shakes*...
Luke M
499. lmelior
Siuanfan @ 494
Perhaps we should start taking bets on which main-level Light-side characters will *not* survive the end of the series.

It'll be pretty steep odds in favor of survival for pretty much everybody. RJ has enough trouble killing off the bad guys, surely he wouldn't kill off any of the top tier good guys. Discounting Rand of course, though I won't be surprised if he worked in a way to avoid that too. Nynaeve and Lan have to revive Malkier, Perrin and Faile have to revive Manetheren, Mat and Tuon have to makeover Seanchan, Berelain and Galad have something together, Bela and Narg have to make ugly, half-holy, half-evil spawnlings together...

Yes, everybody will live. This isn't GRR Martin we're talking about here. Not even JK Rowling.
Sam Mickel
500. Samadai
In one age,called this age by most of us,a group of posters are sitting around hitting refresh on their browser every few minutes. They are anxiously awaiting for the new posts and info from their Queen Leigh. As time flows on they become angrier and start demanding. They demand a story. They want to hear about how the great Con of Jordan went and stories by the great gleeman RJ. But alas no it is not their fate today.

argh. headdesk... headdesk...twitch...shakes...descent into madness
John Massey
501. subwoofer
lmelior- c'mon- yes it is obvious that RJ has killing issues- look at Perrin and the scouring of the Shire... some kids got killed but no one we were really connected to, big fight at the end and all the names we are associated with are still alive- go figure. Would be willing to bet that Rhuarc bites it and so does Lan. Bridgette too. Even if Moiraine makes it back some of the other Aes Sedai will have to die too. No one lives forever, and it would really honk me off if everyone lives happily ever after. Especially after the big fight at the end of the series.
Blake Engholm
502. UncrownedKing
"Even if Moiraine makes it back some of the other Aes Sedai will have to die too"

THANK GOD. Sometimes I think they all deserve it (too harsh?).

If we are talking about our current WOT situations,

I just finished CoT today at lunch, and I have a question. Why in the bluest of blue hells does Ewg go to the North Harbor by herself? I mean come on, you know there is likely someone in your camp betraying you constantly, but you feel the need to go to the harbor because your the best at Cuendillar makin (sp?). Was it to protect the accepted that was chosen to go?

Secondly, why did she have to be so close to the dock? With her talent with the substance you think she could have been a little farther away from the dock.

And can someone enlighten me as to why she was doing that at all? I either read over it, or missed the hint.
John Massey
503. subwoofer
And Thom may die too. RJ is too Star Trekkie in that all the main crew- captain of the ship included- beams down to become cannon fodder and the only person that gets fragged is the one who doesn't have his name mentioned in the main credits.
504. Siuanfan
lmelior ... not that I *want* any of our guys to die, honestly, but I'd be disappointed if they ALL came through it ok. I mean, the odds of that are crazy. Maybe some secondaries, like Gareth Bryne and Rhuarc or Sheriam and Sorilea (It's your TIME, woman, lie down and admit it already!)

Also... guys... GatheringStorm appears to have become a zombie. Did we make provision for that? Samadai's not looking too good either. Do we have a Post-withdrawal-zombification contingency plan? I don't want Leigh to come back tomorrow with a fresh post only to discover there's no one left to read it because we've all eaten each other in the last stages of panic...
John Massey
505. subwoofer
Ewg did it for the same reason that Faile go herself poached or Rand has to dither about all his side projects. RJ wanted to have the series go to 20 books and he needed more random threads out there so there was no way he could wrap it up in a couple of books. I still remember with fondness when I thought the series was a trilogy... then I though it would be five... then I thought it would end at ten... then RJ decided on a series longer than Mission Earth... and here we are today... a bunch of junkies addicted to the WOT crack.
John Massey
506. subwoofer
and then the author dies..... wahhhh! Thankfully for Brandon Sanderson....just like buffalo...
Abdel Masdoua
507. TheDarkOne

IIRC, I think Egw did it in order to cut off any re-supplying for the TAS.
508. tabukat
Thank god for JordanCon. I was finally able to crawl across the moving finish line. I am ahead in the re-read, but everytime I blinked there were 100 new comments & damned if I was going to start posting about things that had already been discussed.

A big thank you to everyone in this community for all the theories, answers & general discussion. It has been great to get so many new perspectives & catch the things I always missed. (Mercedes symbol? I never caught it.) Though things sometimes got a little flamey, this is the most decent group of people I have yet to interact with online.

Also, thanks again to Leigh, our fearless leader!!!

Quick story - I work with someone who is married into the RJ family. She was kind enough to bring me a copy of the JordonCon program & an autographed copy of Mistborn. Tho I did not plan to go out & get any of Brandon Sanderson's books, I have to admit that I am quite impressed with what I am reading so far. It is also very timely as it is slowing down my WoT reread & allowing me to keep better pace with Leigh. I was on the verge of making a mistake in not checking out this author before AMoL. Don't make my almost-mistake!!

I do not pester my co-worker for any info. She is sworn to secrecy for everything anyway & if I become 'that annoying chick' then I may never get any treats!!

Sorry to go on so long, but I am just so happy to have these little presents from JordonCon. I am making it happen next year, you should too!
509. bookworm
@502 UncrownedKing.

I think somebody covered this already, but...

The Chain protects the harbor from hostile boats. The Chain can be lowered to allow friendly boats in (or out). When the Chain is changed into cuendillar, the chain is no longer flexible (and for the part changed in the harbor blockhouses, can no longer be let out or drawn in). So, no more lowering (or raising) the Chain. Boats cannot enter (or leave) the harbor. Harbor is now cut off, and Tar Valon thereby cut off from supplies and aid. Siege lines completed. Real siege begins. Red Ajah's single-mindedness loses day again (they just don't know it yet, and struggle against the inevitable).
Kristen Cook
510. CeistaExiste
All Supergirls will survive the Last Battle, but at least one will not deserve saving at the crucial moment due to a recent episode of Typical Supergirl Sniff Nosed Airheadedness. Maybe one will be maimed. Or become a zombie. This I Fortell.
511. Siuanfan
What's always bothered me about the chain tactic is the fact that Egwene & co. intend to become the occupants of the White Tower once this is over. If cuendillar cannot be destroyed, then they've effectively cut off the Tower from boats forever. Oh sure, they themselves can Travel to get supplies, but it seems like such an extreme step to take.

That's like... I want to move into a new house but it's inhabited by gnomes (Harry Potter style). So I build an impenetrable wall so that the gnomes will eventually starve. Now I want to move in, but now there's this BIG EFFING WALL HERE, wtf!
Brian Cavanaugh
512. jagahanas
The thing that always bothered me is why didn't Eggy invert the weave so that it could not be detected?
Brian Cavanaugh
513. jagahanas
The thing that always bothered me is why didn't Eggy invert the weave so that it could not be detected?
Galen Brinn
514. GatheringStorm
subwoofer said:

And Thom may die too. RJ is too Star Trekkie in that all the main crew- captain of the ship included- beams down to become cannon fodder and the only person that gets fragged is the one who doesn't have his name mentioned in the main credits.

He had his name mentioned. It was Crewman Number 6! (Galaxy Quest reference). lol

Siuanfan wrote:

Also... guys... GatheringStorm appears to have become a zombie. Did we make provision for that? Samadai's not looking too good either. Do we have a Post-withdrawal-zombification contingency plan? I don't want Leigh to come back tomorrow with a fresh post only to discover there's no one left to read it because we've all eaten each other in the last stages of panic...

*twitches*...*shakes*...brains...need posts...*twitches*...
Luke M
515. lmelior
subwoofer @ 501 & Siuanfan @ 504
Don't get me wrong, it'd rub me the wrong way too, I just won't be surprised by it, that's all.

Diverting the course again, there was some interesting discussion about Fain about a hundred comments ago. New Theory!

Following aiel1219's train of thought (@ 409) where Fain battles Shai'tan, we get a Fain POV where he is furious because Shai'tan seems like he is going to get to kill Rand. Fain attacks Shayol Ghul at the same time as Rand, to split the DO's attention. Shai'tan is killed, Rand is killed, and ... wait for it ... Fain/Mordeth becomes the new Dark One. Shaky part: The evil of Shadar Logoth - henceforth, the Real Power (TM) - replaces/merges with Shai'tan's True Power. The cycle repeats.

- Supports the cyclic nature of the series.

- Shadar Logoth was already destroyed, only Fain and the dagger are left.
- Not sure how the True Power/One Power/Real Power shakes out.
- Evil of Shadar Logoth as a Power. We never really see Fain doing anything resembling channeling. However, Fain is still alive after being hunted by the side using the One Power and the side using the True Power. Maybe it's like Rand helping out Bela with saidin without knowing it. He just doesn't know the Real Power's ... ahem ... real power. Side theory: Machin Shin is a product of the Real Power.
- General cockamamieness.

Sam Mickel
516. Samadai

because It isn't a good Egwene story if she isn't captured at least every other book
Richard Fife
517. R.Fife
Heh, I actually have my program from the Con signed by all of the members of the Team Jordan panel. I have my copy of Mistborn (we were actually almost to the point of just throwing them at people, we had so many free copies we were handing out), but have yet to start reading it.
Kristen Cook
518. CeistaExiste
jagahanas @ 512
She forgot to until after. Completely no preparation! Damn her!

I wonder if the people who were supposed to do it in the first place were instructed to invert/mask their ability.
519. Schenny
Long time lurker. Jordan had to be preparing us for an age w/o any power by having Matt ant Aludra(?) discover artillery.
Roger Powell
520. forkroot
I don't think inverting the weave really matters here. Once the chain has been converted, no weave remains.

Strength in delving appears to be key to making cuendillar. We know that Eg has this in spades - the Seanchan were planning to make her a human metal detector back on the continent.

Eg's original plan was to have Leane and Kairen Stang be the two to convert the chains; however Kairen gets inconveniently offed by Halima/Arangar the night before. Bodewhin Cauthon was the substitute, but Eg was reluctant to put her at risk and she knew that she could do the job a lot faster.

What she didn't know was that the operation had been betrayed. When she replaces Bodewhin at the last minute, she ends up surprising not only the SAS but the TAS who net a much bigger fish than they expected.
521. Randalator
Siuanfan @494, 511

I'm going to guess Nynaeve, Mat, and Berelain kick their respective buckets.

Mat will definitely survive Tarmon Gai'don. RJ had planned to write an outrigger novel about Mat and Tuon taking place about 10 years after the Last Battle. Killing him off would would be a major change to RJs planned continuity. Which is a big no-no according to Brandon Sanderson.

What's always bothered me about the chain tactic is the fact that Egwene & co. intend to become the occupants of the White Tower once this is over. If cuendillar cannot be destroyed, then they've effectively cut off the Tower from boats forever. Oh sure, they themselves can Travel to get supplies, but it seems like such an extreme step to take.

The chain is cuendillar. The walls are not. Once the siege is over the relevant parts of the wall can be cut away to get rid of the chain and afterwards be repaired and equipped with a new chain to reestablish the protection of the harbor.
John Massey
522. subwoofer
lmelior @515 and all those wearing tutus... interesting. What I want to know is: what makes Fain such hot sh*!? I mean he picked up a dagger and went looney and was a dark friend and buggered around with some wind. Now he has the power to chain a Myr and make it sweat? I must of missed something somewhere where he gains some kind of super human strength or something.
And I have just caught up with all the prev posts.
R. Fife you are a cruel cruel person. Was not going to shoot you at first but now - Bang!
That's for being a piss flap and taunting those of us that could not make it.
Siuanfan- you floozy.
523. happi
subwoofer@505 - did you say Mission Earth???

I would CERTAINLY boink the Countess Krak!
524. Randalator
forkroot @520

Delving is a weave that examines someone for injuries or illnesses. It has nothing to do with metals.

Making cuendillar is more likely associated with a general affinity for metals or strength in the Power Earth respectively. The weave called "Aligning the Matrix" (used to strengthen metals) is probably closest to the skill of making cuendillar.
John Massey
525. subwoofer
And Randalator- good point about thinking outside the chain. Then the question becomes, what do you do with a mile of cuendillar?
And it still begs the question- why did Eg have to do that? If she could make the stuff why wasn't she mass producing the things so her fellow Aes Sedai rebels or whatever could use it to whoop some butt? Instead of buggering around with chains why not convert something else to block the harbor or sink some ships or do anything else but be captured by the enemy by buggering around at night, alone in the dark by herself? She could not of twittered someone to let them know the skinny on what she was doing?
John Massey
526. subwoofer
Happi@523 Yes the Countess would be worth some augmentation and getting your nuts raked over a cheese grater. um... Boink
527. tabukat
Sigh, R.Fife you are such a tease. Here I was all happy with my unsigned program & copy of Mistborn.

Naa, I'm still ecstatic & will make it up when I am there next year.

Really liking Mistborn, only 50 pages in & so far we have – an almost murder/rape, violence, rebellion, metal magic & evil caste system. I sense conflict.

C'mon new post in the AM, I need something to read at work tomorrow!
528. douglasm
The harbors are not blocked permanently. One of Elaida's viewpoint scenes discusses the process of "repairing" them by removing rather than destroying the chains. It will require completely dismantling and rebuilding the towers with the mechanism that raises and lowers the chains, it will have to be done with the One Power, and it's not really feasible to do while under siege, but it can be done. Yes, that's a lot of work to unblock the harbors, but blocking them is strictly necessary for the siege to work and any means of blockage must be difficult to remove in order to be effective. And in the end, it is possible to remove, and they will have the bridges immediately available once the siege is over.

Inverting a weave is making a weave and then altering it to be undetectable. Making a weave undetectable as you weave it is called Reversing, and so far only the Forsaken have been shown to know this technique.

Leane made her trick work by making the weave outside of detection range, inverting it, and then moving it. Such a tactic is not immediately obvious without some thought and creativity (moving a weave after making it is hardly standard practice for most things), and Egwene just didn't think of it.

Having something made out of cuendillar does nothing to help block the harbors if you can't get it in place, and the chain itself prevents them from moving something suitable into place.
John Massey
529. subwoofer
Douglasm... yes... good on the chains... I still go back to the can't her whole army of men and AS think of something else and have some friends along so you do not get captured while you are buggering around at night, alone in the dark, by herself?
John Massey
530. subwoofer
edit- by yourself
sorry, am pricing out rims at the same time.
531. almuric
I'm on CoS in my re-read. The copyright date says 1996. I remembered almost none of this book. I must have been drunk or something when I read it. Anyway, after Dumai's Well, Rand sulks for a few days, then meets with the Sea Folk, then gets a wild hair up his patootie and Travels to the rebels. His Ta'veren-ness was probably gonna bring 'em all to his side. But... Padan Fain was there.

While he and some noble (I can't keep who's who straight) are fighting with practice swords in a big tent, evidently Padan Fain called up something big and bad-ass. Like Mashadar, but bigger. I think this is the first (only?) indication of what Fain is truly capable of. He decimates the rebels. I'm not sure if it's ever revealed how many people died.

This is a totally wicked power, completely outside the One Power or even the True Power. It puts him at a power level equal to one of the Forsaken in my estimation. I like the idea that he'll become the new 'Dark One'; that had never occurred to me.

I really have no feel for how TG is going to play out. There's too many players with too many abilities. Did Min ever reveal what her vision of Moiraine showed? It'd be awesome if she came back even more powerful. Nynaeve level (or even Lanfear) with maybe a foxhead medallion. She could take out Cyndane - "What? I thought I killed you?" Or maybe she'll just come back with a whole bunch of knowledge about what the Forsaken have been doing or why the seals are broken or what to do about Shaidar Haran.

I think Moiraine and Thom will die together, Thom protecting her while she does something important. Rand will probably die, but all his women will live and they'll all be pregnant or have already given birth. Perrin and Faile will live. Mat and Tuon will live. Nynaeve and Lan will live. Egwene will probably live. Most others will die. Except for Mazrim Taim, who'll open an orphanage.

"what do you do with a mile of cuendillar?"
Oh, you can make a hat, or a broach, or a pterodactyl...
John Massey
532. subwoofer
Yeah, that's right... or the little tower could take up origami... I hear cuendillar is quite bendable.
Sydo Zandstra
533. Fiddler
What's always bothered me about the chain tactic is the fact that Egwene & co. intend to become the occupants of the White Tower once this is over. If cuendillar cannot be destroyed, then they've effectively cut off the Tower from boats forever. Oh sure, they themselves can Travel to get supplies, but it seems like such an extreme step to take.

The main reason why they went for this tactic is that they couldn't afford a long lasting siege, especially not with all kind of AS starting to get second thoughts on assaulting the White Tower. The chains could not have been destroyed afterwards, but they could take down the towers that were holding them, and rebuild them after that. IIRC, that is mentioned somewhere in that book (but it's been a while since I read CoT).

It seems like a sound military tactic to me, considering the situation at hand.
John Massey
534. subwoofer
And Almuric, you either read super fast or were drunk for a long period of time.
Chiara Elvira
535. elvyelvy
R.Fife definitely needs some action. Shooting? naaaah, too clean a fate. Maybe leaving him to some starving grolms, or a few garas. Then Whitecloaks could step in (hmmm, hot pincers, raking devices, hot irons & all that stuff).

And the Post-Withdrawal-Rescue-Team (PWRT from now on) should be created straight away, this very minute. Guess what will happen during summer holidays? We could be nicely around LoC or ACoS, and the aftershock ....
*twitches*...*shakes*...*twitches*...*shudders*... *headdesk*...
Sydo Zandstra
536. Fiddler
And Almuric, you either read super fast or were drunk for a long period of time.

That made me laugh so hard I almost spilled my beer.

537. Randalator
Then the question becomes, what do you do with a mile of cuendillar?

I don't know. Whack someone over the head with it?

"Shut up or I'll chain you one"
(famous quote by Egwenalver, mayor of Great Arvalon, the Fourth Age)

And it still begs the question- why did Eg have to do that? If she could make the stuff why wasn't she mass producing the things so her fellow Aes Sedai rebels or whatever could use it to whoop some butt? Instead of buggering around with chains why not convert something else to block the harbor or sink some ships or do anything else but be captured by the enemy by buggering around at night, alone in the dark by herself?

They ARE mass producing cuendillar to finance their campaign to a point where they worry that they will ruin the price if they keep it up.

The ship plan is doomed to fail. As Gareth Bryne explained this has been tried numerous times but never succeded because the ships were destroyed by Tar Valon before they could reach the harbor mouth. That is why Hawkwings siege of Tar Valon failed.

"Hawkwing's generals never managed that. The Aes Sedai always raised those iron chains in time to stop the ships getting into the harbor mouth and sank them before they could be placed to hinder trade. Food and supplies got in."
(ACoS, ch. 11)

As for blocking the harbor with something else: Whatever it is, it would have to be a very large object. Even if something suitable existed, a) it would be impossible to get it close enough to Tar Valon just like the ships from Hawkwings siege and b) anything not cuendillar could eventually be destroyed by the TV Aes Sedai. So cuendillar it has to be and since cuendillar is made from metal the harbor chains are the obvious choice.

The only thing that Egwene & Co seem to have ignored is the possibility of cuendillar armor.
538. Randalator
almuric @531

Fain had nothing to do with the killer fog in the rebel camp. That was a Bubble of Evil.
539. hoping to be of the blood
"Oh, you can make a hat, or a broach, or a pterodactyl"

an "Airplane" reference, right?
Do I win a prize?
Luke M
540. lmelior
tabukat @ 527 almost murder/rape, violence, rebellion, metal magic & evil caste system. I sense conflict.

Truly, your perceptiveness is astonishing. :)

I'm looking forward to reading the Mistborn series myself, I've just been too lazy to get to the library. gave away the first one as a free ebook, so I've got that lying around somewhere.
Roger Powell
541. forkroot
Oops, you're right. I went back to TGH to see if they had any specific term for the ability to detect ores and there didn't seem to be one. Regardless of the term, the ability is linked with unusual strength in earth. That same strength apparently figures into making cuendillar.

For all of Leane's cleverness, she still only converted part of the southharbor chain and got herself caught too. Eg converted the entire northharbor chain. I doubt Bodewhin would have done much of anything before being caught.

Anyway, it looks like has Egwene blundered into the winning tower reunification strategy, thanks to Elaida not taking her seriously enough. I really enjoy the KoD chapters as Eg takes her punishment with grace and slowly wins the respect of the tower.

IMO by the time the Seanchan arrive, they'll probably just be rescuing her from Elaida and a few diehards - most of the TAS will prefer her over Elaida, at least privately.
lanyo lanyo
542. lanyo
re: too many names, so hard to remember. I also have the problem where, for me, Egwene and Elayne can rhyme sometimes ( I don't pronounce them consistently in my head) and then the scenes with Marin, Verin and Perrin made me sing-song them constantly together.

boink: any lesbo Aes Sedai who's been alive for a long time, girl's gotta have some mad bedroom skillz
marry: probably Mat, he's loyal whether or not he thinks he wants to be, and he would be lots of fun
kill: slayer, i just really didn't need one more confusing storyline tossed in there involving random relatives

Side note:
Do you guys think the cut-in-half versions of EotW are too old/hard for a 5th grader??

edit: O, there were FREE reading materials?!?!?!?!? yY, I'll pay for postage to get me some!!
Chiara Elvira
543. elvyelvy
In actual fact yes, you do get a prize.
An Egwene statuette. All cuendillar.
label underneath reads "Made in Shara".
John Massey
544. subwoofer
Randalator- good points all of them...must of been drunk at the time... cuendillar armour... or back to my idea of origami swans.
John Massey
545. subwoofer
Oh yeah, didn't notice if we flogged to death any of the Slayer being Lan's half brother thing, but does this mean that Lan has some dormant powers too and maybe that was why RJ paired him with the Angry Braid? And Rand having a brother... he may be the one who dies on the rocks of whosoever and whatnot.... just a thought.
Chiara Elvira
546. elvyelvy
subwoofer, your remark makes me realize that
Rand has a brother (half-brother ok,Galad) who has too half-brother and half-sister Gawyn and Elayne. So Rand marries into family, in a sort of way.
This too on top of everything else.
*headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*... *headdesk*...
547. Freelancer
@265 UncrownedKing

It was John Rhys-Davies, since nobody else bothered to say. It always made me laugh that he played Gimli, since he's about twice that height IRL.

@381 FullNelson

It's called Heartleaf tea. Elayne skipped her dose, hence the future UberTwins(TM).

@everything else...

Umm, uh-huh.

Post soon, Leigh!
548. schenny
Question? Is it a proven that Matt's Fox head stops male channeling from what happened in Salidar at the dance with Halima?
Alice Arneson
549. Wetlandernw
Re: the cuendillar chain...

I always thought this was a slick move. We've known since book 2 that Eg was extraordinarily strong (for a woman) in Earth, but she hasn't used it all that much. A couple of times, but not for a while. So if narrative necessity called for Eg to be captured by the TAS, this was a totally believable reason for it to happen. No one else is as earth-strong as she, hence no one else is as fast. And come on. Are you really going to have a novice do this? Not. Not if you're Eg and carry the responsibility for all the AS (full, Accepted and Novice) who follow you. It was a risk, and she knew it, but she got the job done first. And she's had that motto for a while: Do what you have to, and pay the price. So she did. And she did.

As others have said, RJ made the need (or at least the expedience) of the chain-changing pretty reasonable too; there's a reason TV has withstood seige with no real effect.
Alice Arneson
550. Wetlandernw
Re: the cuendillar chain...

I always thought this was a slick move. We've known since book 2 that Eg was extraordinarily strong (for a woman) in Earth, but she hasn't used it all that much. A couple of times, but not for a while. So if narrative necessity called for Eg to be captured by the TAS, this was a totally believable reason for it to happen. No one else is as earth-strong as she, hence no one else is as fast. And come on. Are you really going to have a novice do this? Not. Not if you're Eg and carry the responsibility for all the AS (full, Accepted and Novice) who follow you. It was a risk, and she knew it, but she got the job done first. And she's had that motto for a while: Do what you have to, and pay the price. So she did. And she did.

As others have said, RJ made the need (or at least the expedience) of the chain-changing pretty reasonable too; there's a reason TV has withstood seige with no real effect.
Alice Arneson
551. Wetlandernw
Rats. Sorry about the double post. My finger twitched on the post button. *sigh* I guess I'm starting to get the twitches too. Any sign of the white coats yet?
Chiara Elvira
552. elvyelvy
White coats? Coming soon, followed by the Black coats.
Situation's getting sticky...
John Massey
553. subwoofer
Geez everyone! Get tough nancy boys! Think happy thoughts... comfortable underwear!
mark Proctor
554. mark-p
My theorys about Fain were pretty similar, I was expecting him to take the place of the Dark One at the end, I'm not sure now but he's going to cause some sort of trouble in the last battle.

Shadow_Jak @ 410.
haha, That the way I would have interpreted "no word that is not true". Good thing I'm not Aes Sedai.
John Massey
555. subwoofer
"There was bitterness in Shaiel, in the beginning," she finished.
Sitting back on her heels beside Rand, Amys nodded. "She spoke of a child abandoned, a son she loved. A husband she did not love."
..."He (Janduin- Rand's father) went north with the young men, to hunt Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Blight. It is a thing that wild young men do and Maidens with less sense than goats. Those who returned though said he was killed by a man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the man ran him through."

This was the Rand's brother that I was referring to.
John Massey
556. subwoofer
So Galad is also Rand's bastard brother somehow. That being said I don't think Galad was in the Blight and, at that time, had the skill necessary to fight Aiel on his own. RJ was hinting that Rand has another half brother that lives in the blight and seems to have skills and be cranky.
Sam Mickel
557. Samadai
I know it is never stated but I wonder if Rands father (Janduin I think), had any brothers or sisters that had children that would be Rands general age. Ayways that could be his blood spilled on rocks as well, although if that were the case I am sure we would have met them by now
John Massey
558. subwoofer
Samadai @557, nope, I was hinting at this but I think RJ was saving this thread for book 15 or 16. Maybe Mazrim Taim is his half brother from the Boarder Lands... just a thought.
Sam Mickel
559. Samadai

I believe that that was suppose to be Rands uncle Luc, Tigraines brother
Chiara Elvira
560. elvyelvy
I too thought that Jandhuin met Luc.
Ed Dyer
561. HumbleReader
@546, 555, 556

I had a nicely formatted comment with quotes and all, but my browser ate it (grrr...)

Anyway Rand was very worried about the possibility of being related to Elayne, but he worked the connections out in a POV soon after subwoofer's quote above. Elayne is Tarengail Damodred's daughter by his second wife (Morgase) whereas Rand is son of Tigraine (Tarengail's first wife) in her subsequent relationship with Janduin. So there is no blood connection at all, to Rand's great relief!

Galad was Tarengail and Tigraine's only child, and thus half brother to both Rand and Elayne by different paths.
John Massey
562. subwoofer
Thought Luc/Slayer was Lan's brother.
Dark hair and blue eyes a face all hard planes and angles, so reminiscent of Lan's face. Except that in that brief glimpse Slayer licked his lips twice; his forehead was creased and his eyes darted as they searched. Lan would not of let his worry show if he stood alone against a thousand Trollocs.

And on previous posts I believe that it was Randalator or R. Fife that were kind enough to show a genealogical tree of this.
Chiara Elvira
563. elvyelvy
I know HumbleReader, I had his family tree very clear, a nice example of Randland enlarged family.
John Massey
564. subwoofer
The dawn is slowly coming to me... does this all mean that Lan is a distant relation to Rand too?
But according to me at 555 Shaiel left a son behind in a previous marriage. Unless she had kids 30 years apart, I don't see Luc being the son she left behind. He may of been the one to stab Janduin but I do not think that he is
she spoke of a child abandoned, a son she loved.

I think that RJ was hinting at another half brother out there.
Brett Michie
565. bchurch
subwoofer @ 562:

Slayer = Luc + Isam

Isam is Lan's first cousin.

Luc, being Tigraine's brother, is Rand's uncle.

Galad is Tigraine's firstborn, a few years older than Rand.
John Massey
566. subwoofer
bchurch- ahhhhhhhhh I see it clearly now! I am the keeper of the cheese!
Poopy.. I was hoping that there was a kid out there who would bleed all over the Rocks of the last battle giving Rand an 'out' and preserving RJ's main character.
567. WiseOne
Does Slayer's plot-ual purpose confuse the crud out of anyone else?
Brett Michie
568. bchurch
Now I'm wondering, in the Aiel society, if a Maiden gets pregnant and doesn't want to give up the spear, does she tell the father? Shaiel/Tigraine was heavy with Rand, yet still a Maiden and it seems that Janduin knew as he "could deny her nothing." In other instances, I'm just wondering if the father finds out and what would happen if he wanted the child? It seems likely that most often, the Maiden would try to keep him ignorant, but if he did find out, are his wishes in the matter taken into consideration? I'm not sure how all this would square under ji'e'toh.
569. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Randalator @524
Delving was the term in the AOL for using the Power to search for ores underground. IIRC this is stated in the glossary at the end of each novel. It would therefore be a Talent that Egwenne possesses, as discovered during her time with the Seanchan.

Subwoofer @563
Slayer is Luc and Isam combined somehow. Isam is Lan's cousin, while Luc is Rand's uncle. This would explain why whenever the girls see Slayer in TAR he is alternately described by as a cruel looking version of Rand or Lan. It depends on which face he's wearing at the moment. And Galad isn't a bastard. He's as legit as they come. Perhaps you mean half brother?
John Massey
570. subwoofer
Bottom line- Luc really needs a beating! When it is all said and done, maybe that is Perrin's big thing. When he and Mat and Rand are reunited and their combined ta'vereness starts pulling things in many directions for the good, maybe that is what Perrin does- kill Slayer.
Mat sounds the horn and leads the Aeil dedicated, Band of the Red Hand and anyone else that comes along in the last battle.
Rand figures out how to break the seals and make them whole again and seals the DO's prison.
I go on the talk show circuit saying that back when I figured it all out... yeah that's right...ah.... I got nuthin'... yes the whole Slayer/Luc/Lan/ Galad/ the man in the moon thing confuses the snot out of me.gahhhhhh!
* dummy slaps self*
571. WiseOne
Well it seems like it'd be a little obvious to the father if his maiden friend suddenly looked "heavy" as you said. But I don't think his wishes would be taken into consideration, since the child is supposed to go to someone who doesn't know its parentage.
John Massey
572. subwoofer
AlreadymadwhenIfoundouttheywereimplants... yeah, I must of ment half brother- that bastard- Galad- curse, swear, curse some more.
John Massey
573. subwoofer
I don't think a Maiden of the Spear gives a rat's ass what the father thinks. They have a policy about giving the kid away and that is what made Rand so special, the only son of a Maiden that came back or some such... too much work to find the exact passage and brain turning to oatmeal at soooo many threads.
Brett Michie
574. bchurch

I agree that's probably what happens, but I think he should have some say. And, would the Maiden incur toh if she did try to keep it from him? I know my opinions don't matter there, and I don't want to start a flame war here . . just something I've never thought of before.

And sorry bout the "heavy" comment . . was trying to sound biblical, and I realize now that it's less than pc.
575. WiseOne
No ha I thought the "heavy" was funny. I'm not the kind of person who takes offense easily.

I won't say I understand all the things that incur toh, but I don't think this is one of those times. If the point is to keep the parentage secret, it would seem prudent to keep it from some people. However, if you are talking about keeping it from being known so you can still fight, then I think it would incur toh.
Brett Michie
576. bchurch

You're probably right. I'm thinking now that the culture of the Aiel is such that if the father knew, he would understand that it's up to the Maiden to either give up the spear or give up the child to the Wise Ones. I'm just trying to place myself in that situation, and I would have a hard time with it. I understand why Gaul's so frustrated.
577. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Gaul is outraged because Chiad does not care enough for him to put aside the spear and ask him to marry her.
578. Randalator
alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed @569

Randalator @524
Delving was the term in the AOL for using the Power to search for ores underground. IIRC this is stated in the glossary at the end of each novel. It would therefore be a Talent that Egwenne possesses, as discovered during her time with the Seanchan.

You're right the glossary mentioned Delving as detecting ores with the Power since LoC.

(1) The ability to use the One Power to diagnose physical condition and illness. (2) The ability to find deposits of metal ores with the One Power. That this has long been a lost ability among Aes Sedai may account for the name becoming attached to another ability.

I haven't read the glossaries since TGH or TDR so I never stumbled across that information. I stand corrected and bow my head in shame.

My toh will be met but I won't let anyone beat me...
579. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Randalator @578
You have no toh. Even those assuming, self-important, know-it-all Aes Sedai probably don't know either.
( Attach standard rant against the White Tower here )
580. Siuanfan
Wasn't Taringail Damodred Moiraine's brother? Wouldn't that make Moiraine Galad and Elayne's aunt and Rand's aunt by marriage?

So... Rand is:

Galad's half brother

NOT Elayne's brother (but close!)

Moiraine's nephew (-in-law)

King Laman's great-nephew (and current owner of his gaudy-ass sword, given to him by Aviendha)

Slayer's nephew (via Luc)

Lan's nephew - sort of (via Isam/Slayer)

... as well as the Dragon Reborn (aka Lews Therin Telamon 2.0), lovenugget of that crazy ho Lanfear, who was the employer of that dude Charn, who was an ancestor of Rand's.

John Massey
581. subwoofer
By shear coincidence on Maiden's carrying children and being "heavy", on TLC there is a show called "I didn't know I was pregnant". Women carrying babies to full term, even losing weight during pregnancy, and then suddenly surprised by bad abdominal pains, thinking bad things are happening, not knowing they are going into labor. Crazy. Could see a maiden doing something like that.
582. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
subwoofer @581
I thought that was how Rand happened to get birthed in the middle of a battlezone.
John Massey
583. subwoofer
and Siuanfan- I bow to your logic and amazing ability to link this all together without having an aneurysm. My head still hurts thinking about it.
584. Hardcore
Re: family relations involving Rand, et al:

One other thing I always thought was interesting was that Elaida's Foretelling way, way back in the day said that the Royal Line of Andor would be pivotal in the Last Battle, and because of this, she attached herself to Morgase. But since Rand is Tigraine's son, couldn't the Foretelling have been about him, and have nothing to do with Morgase or Elayne?
585. almuric
Are you sure it was a bubble of evil? Seemed way weirder than that. It appeared like Fain slipped out of the tent and called in a favor in order to get at Rand. I admit I'm only a couple of chapters past that point. Does someone in the book say one way or the other? And even if someone did say it was a bubble, how would they really know? They'd be guessing because no-one really knows what Fain is capable of.

I don't know. It could go either way. I'm gonna believe it's Fain until someone proves otherwise.

And I never thought about it, but I have something in common with Rand/Galad. I, too, have a half-brother. Same mom, different dads. (Except in my case, I really am a bastard. Natural father skipped town as soon as he found out mom was preggers.) Since I'm the older I guess I'm Galad and my brother's Rand. I'll have to ask him if he hears a voice in his head the next time I see him. I'll have to start buying more white t-shirts. And stock up on bleach. And think pure thoughts.
John Massey
586. subwoofer
alreadymad... you are correct. Whaling through the chapters like a mad man, I read the words but sometimes the meaning gets left behind. I'd always assumed that while Shaiel did not give up the spear, she may of just been doing other stuff- i dunno, crocheting or something- and the baby dropped out. But you are right, RJ and all the prophecies that I gloss over do mention being born on the slopes of Dragonmount in the middle of a big fight. I am still the Keeper of the Cheese.
587. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Hardcore @584
Actually, the Foretelling was exactly about Rand and not Elayne or Morgase. Since Morgase wasn't queen yet when the Foretelling occurred, the ruling house at the time was still Tigraine's house, Mantear, just minus one all-important Daughter Heir. IIRC Mantear was getting nothing but baby boys at the time, so they could not continue the royal line of queens.

almuric @585
Yes. And be too beautiful to be a man.
John Massey
588. subwoofer
OMG- my wife is watching this show and it is killing me! Two words a man should never hear- retroverted uterus.
589. almuric
Absolutely. That's another reason everyone thinks she's the dumbest person in the books. Not really her fault, but her self-centeredness (It's all about me!) along with her general cluelessness (always misinterpreting things) would make her a prime candidate for parody. In the TV show, she'd be played by the mom from the British 'Absolutely Fabulous'.

Speaking of clueless women. Re: the "I didn't know I was pregnant" show. How appropriate. My wife's watching upstairs; I'm not.
John Massey
590. subwoofer
Thinking happy thoughts- la la la
Back to the Fain thing- why/ how is he such hot stuff now? He has a dagger, but how does that make him so special. I still feel ripped that RJ didn't really say how much power Fain has- back on the fence with almuric.
And be to beautiful to be a man ?!

Thinking happy thoughts- la la la
John Massey
591. subwoofer
Almuric- Brilliant! TG for WIFI. Can't believe there is a series about women walking around for 9 months, not having a period and not cluing in.
Brett Michie
592. bchurch
Almuric @ 585

I'm pretty sure it's a bubble of evil. The behavior of the coalescing fog monsters being sliced apart and reforming is very much reminiscent of the dust creatures in Rhuidean. Also, it's subtly foreshadowed earlier in the book by a similar fog in the Rahad. One of Mat's redarms mentions it to him as an unnatural fog that grabbed and ate people.

And Siuanfan

Isn't Moiraine Taringail's cousin? I seem to remember it more that she is from a minor branch of the house.
Brett Michie
593. bchurch
Oops, Siuanfan, you're right. Just found it, she's Taringail's youngest half-sister. My bad.
594. warcaller

Taringail Damodred is Moiraine's half brother. They have the same father but different mother, other wise you're correct with the genealogy.
John Massey
595. subwoofer
Did this bubble of evil happen in CoS or PoD? I am trying to find the reference.
Travis Splawn
596. MoreBooksForMe
Re: Fain and the fog.

Don't forget that while in Far Madding when Rand when to kill the two rogue Asha'man, Fain made a ghostly image of the two Asha'man talking about something(I forget about what)walking towards him. I think Rand sliced through them and they vanished like the fog monsters.

Just a thought.
Brett Michie
597. bchurch

CoS in the chapter Blades
John Massey
598. subwoofer
bchurch- much appreciated!
maybe I am coming at this wrong. What is Fain really? is he that Mordeth guy walking around or is he a tool of the DO or is he like the Gholam or is he tainted from traveling the Ways and is the dark wind somehow? Just when I recall what is going on with the guy someone- re 596 comes along and throws a wrench in any conclusion I almost reached.
Abdel Masdoua
599. TheDarkOne
I was late to the party and it took me that much time to catch up...
But I Finally Did It.
Great Post Everyone!

Also, lot of craaazy stuff going on...
I Think The Lack Of Leigh Is Gonna Kill Us All.
Leigh, Please Come Back To Us!

And, as a sidenote, 600 Upcoming!

Mother's Milk In A Bloody Cup!
Josh Davis
600. YoSoyElJosh

I thought I'd read that was simply another one of those "the dead are still alive" moments.

Someone else can correct me on how wrong that is.

Also, new post today! So excited!
jane reynolds
601. janie
Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams ...
No new post? NOOOOOO!
*shakes head vigorously in an attempt to dislodge Machin Shin*
WOW! I'm seriously impressed with the level of craziness and hilarity reached here over the past week. I've been lurking along, and laughing a LOT, and twitching more and more as the days go by with no new post ...
Especially loved all the fiction-fiction, by the way. And the tutus.
Here's my take on the question of the week:
Boink: Rhuarc. An Aiel clan chief, can match Lan stare for stare and make Berelain run like a child? Come on. If I could get him away from his wives, that is ...
Marry: Mat. He is a good guy, even if he doesn't admit to it. And I like his sense of humour. And then there's the fact that he's AWESOME.
Kill: ELAIDA. I have no problem with evil, but stupidity .... argh!
And good grief, people, 600? An entire legion of the Aiel Asha'man Unit of the Light couldn't stop us!
Blake Engholm
602. UncrownedKing

"Taringail Damodred is Moiraine's half brother"

How did I miss this? So this makes Mo elayne Gawyn and Galads' half Aunt? I don't like or understand geneology terminology, but How did I miss this? I'm ashamed.

With this discovered, Slayer then is related to Lan, Rand, and Galad?

And through marraige, half of the main characters are related in some backwoods way, filled with half-mothers-brothers-sisters (wow). I hate geneology.

I love the fact that people Love the Asha'man Unit of the Light(@601). Maybe the only semi-cool thing I've ever brought up

Long Live the AUoTL!!
jane reynolds
603. janie
I must admit, my dad's a genealogy nut, and being brought up with it, I think the WOT genealogy kind of rules. Don't get me wrong, in real life, complex connections make for major confusion and frustration, trying to work out how people fit together. (I remember seeing one tree put together by a distant relative which had a whole lot of interesting new information and connections in it, which my dad was quite excited about, until he twigged that all was not quite right when he noticed that there was a date of birth in one generation which was later than a date of death two generations on ...) But it blows my mind to realise, for example, that Moiraine's uncle Laman cut down Avendoraldera, which led to the Aiel war, which led to Rand being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. Moiraine, whose half-brother Taringail married both Tigraine (Rand mother) and Morgase (Elayne's). How's that for weird? (Thom tells us that, by the way, in TSR, Deceptions, we also find out that he killed Taringail) Moiraine, also bonded to Lan, who is Isam's cousin, which gives us another (sort of) connection to Rand, as Isam=Luc and Luc is Rand's uncle. And then there's Galad being Gawyn/Elayne's half-brother as well as Rand, and Rand hooking up with Elayne, and Gawyn hooking up with Egwene who grew up with Rand and everyone thought was going to marry him, and ...

Ok, ok, so not all of that is genealogical, some of it is just RJ's awesomeness. Like the fact that Tigraine/Shaiel was sent to the Waste by Gitara Moroso, who then proclaimed Rand's birth to Moiraine and Siuan. And the massive coincidence that was Thom's just happening to be in Emond's Field at the same time as Moiraine. Now if we can only find out that Rand's father was Aviendha's uncle by marriage on her mother's side ...

Bloody ta'veren! Blood and bloody ashes!

Long live the AUotL indeed! Maybe they can Heal madness ...
604. Randalator
Almuric @585

As bchurch already said @592 there was a similar bubble of evil in the Rahad (ACoS, ch. 17).

"My Lord?" Harnan said as they left. "My Lord, I heard there was a fog in the Rahad yesterday."
On the point of turning away, Mat stopped. Harnan looked worried, and nothing much worried him. "What do you mean, a fog?" In this heat, fog thick as porridge would not last a heartbeat.
The file leader shrugged uncomfortably and peered into his mug. "A fog. I heard there was . . . things . . . in it." He looked up at Mat. "I heard people just disappeared. And some was found eaten, parts of them."

So I tend to go with Occam's Razor here. It is more plausible that it was another foggy bubble of evil than a manifestation of the same nature with an entirely different cause.

Also if it were Fain's doing you would have to ask why we don't see him using his powers more often. We know that he can create illusions of the recent past (TGH, ch. 10; WH, ch. 33) to distract victims but nothing more. Otherwise Rand wouldn't have survived their fight in Far Madding and the Two Rivers would be a lot less populated now.
605. Siuanfan
Awww cute... Rand went from poor orphaned child who knew nothing about his birth parents to having more relatives than anyone else in the books. And that's not even counting the six on the way.

I wonder if this information will have any effect on the 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' bit. I mean, if half the cast are of his blood...
Maggie M
606. Eswana
Wow, guys. I predicted last week we'd get up to 600 comments before Leigh's next post.....and here we are!

We need a new post baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadly.

Upside? With all this time on our hands all kinds of minutiae have been discussed in detail.
Blake Engholm
607. UncrownedKing
@603 Janie

Did he really admit to killing Taringail? If so that means he killed 2 kings (Taringail and the king of Cairhien). Quite the old'n'grey assassin isn't he. Maybe he's the counterpart to Slayer.

Slayer vs. Thom at TG?

Also, do you think Leigh read half of this? If so I don't think she'll believe her eyes. I think we have touched on every single theory and then some in here. I, personally, am uber-impressed with everyones efforts.

Bravo, applause and what-not!
608. Siuanfan
Thom: "Well hello there, pretty lady! We're here with our fire and iron and music to rescue you!"

Moiraine: "Hello. My name is Moiraine Damodred. Joo keel my brother. Prepare to die."

Mat: "Uh... come on Thom, we gotta go."

In other news, UK... I think all of Andor would have a fit if they heard you referring to Taringail as a 'king'. There'd be glaring, chinraising, and dress-smoothing galore, and that's just in the throne room!
jane reynolds
609. janie
It's not so much that he admitted it, as Moiraine implied it, and it's his POV and he didn't exactly deny it. I leave it to you to decide either way. Here's the quote, and I've left the next paragraph on cos it tells us about Moiraine:
Her smile was just short of laughter, but she spoke as if reading from a page. "Thomdril Merrilin. Called the Grey Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in Caemlyn. Morgase's lover for a time, after Taringail died. Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail's death. I do not suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor's first king. But we were speaking of Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name."

Thom masked his shock with an effort. How much did she know? Too much if she knew not another word. But she was not the only one with knowledge. "Speaking of names," he said levelly, "it is remarkable how much can be puzzled out from a name. Moiraine Damodred. The Lady Moiraine of House Damodred, in Cairhien. Taringail's youngest half-sister. King Laman's niece. And Aes Sedai, let us not forget. An Aes Sedai aiding the Dragon Reborn since before she could have known that he was more than just another poor fool who could channel. An Aes Sedai with connections high in the White Tower, I would say, else she'd not risk what she has. Someone in the Hall of the Tower? More than one, I'd say; it would have to be. News of that would shake the world. But why should there be trouble. Perhaps it's best to leave an old gleeman tucked away in his hole in the servants' quarters. Just an old gleeman playing his harp and telling his tales. Tales that harm no one."

Seems to me that it's lucky for Moiraine Thom wasn't in Fal Dara when the Amyrlin turned up, or he may have figured out even more ...
And Siuanfan is quite right, while Taringail would very much have liked to be king, Thom handily did away with him first.
- EDIT - And OMG, are there any two characters who we can't connect? It's like being in NZ!
Amar Ramraj
610. aiel1219
New post on the way!!! New post post on the way!!! Tra-la-la-la-la-la!!!
I think we temporarily shut down for a bit with our 600+ posts... I got to see 598 and tried to post but the site was down.

oh... I've been lurking for a bit... my gf is visitin after several months... so had no time to post the past day or so(and I see several exciting things have happened since I've been gone). But she's graciously given me hsr consent to read and post since its new post day and all :) YAY!!!

NEhoes... HUZZAAHH!!! to u guys! I really enjoyed catching up with the last 100 posts or so.

Can sum1 pls put that link to the WoT funny fan fiction site... it'll be a horror goin tru 600 posts to find it again.
Blake Engholm
611. UncrownedKing
In my own defense I called him a King, because by being married to a Queen, in mind, this made him a "king" if nothing else but in title. A king with no say in the govt, but a king none the less.

Does anyone know if Leigh is ok?

"And OMG, are there any two characters who we can't connect? It's like being in NZ! "

7-degrees of Seperation with Rand Al'Thor. I see no reason why it would not apply.
Richard Fife
612. R.Fife
when I saw her last on Sunday, she was OK, and I have it on good faith at least of monday night that she was safely back in NYC. Fear not, the post is coming.
613. Siuanfan
I'm in NYC. Hell, I'll go check on her if I have to. If only to avert the impending zombie apocalypse... it's starting to get scary around here with the desperation! :P
614. MaureenS
I've been lurking here off and on all week and snickering at all this nonsense but I have to admit that I just snorted out loud over this one @608

Moiraine: "Hello. My name is Moiraine Damodred. Joo keel my brother. Prepare to die."
Galen Brinn
615. GatheringStorm
Siuanfan said:

I'm in NYC. Hell, I'll go check on her if I have to. If only to avert the impending zombie apocalypse... it's starting to get scary around here with the desperation! :P

*twitches*...*shakes*...""... (Phil Hartman's Frankenstein reference)

Blake Engholm
616. UncrownedKing
We may actually have an epidemic on the rise. I think the first stage of becoming a WOT zombie is the urge to twitch. As of right now:


Have all begun twitching. I don't know how long it takes to go from twitching to brain-gobbling, but it can't be that long.

I myself feel a twitch coming on.

The Light shine on us and protect us all.
Amar Ramraj
617. aiel1219
Many of you may recognise certain characters here from outside of WoT:)
I'll probably be flayed for this but here goes:

"ugghhhh... huh?" Asmodean shakes his head "What happened to me? Where am I?" He slowly looks around "My, but its bright here!! What the..." his jaw drops.

"Free!!! Free!!! After 3000 years I'm Free!!!"
He pauses and sniffs around "What is that horrible odour? What the...ooohhh... it's me... guess 3000 years without soap and a toothbrush can do that!"...
Two Days later...
"Mine!!! Mine!!! Gimme Gimme!!!"says the strangely long limed hunched over fellow.

"Listen here!!! This harp is mine!!!" says Asmodean
"Now my name is Asmodean! One of the 13 all powerful bad guys known to you mere mortals the Forsaken!"

"You not all powerful! Mistress take your skin for throne cover!!" says weird hunched over fellow.

"Your Mistress will do that, will she??" Asmodean laughs out loud and wraps the strange fellow in a flow of air "Take me to this Mistress!!! Now!!""

"Ok! Ok!... But your funeral" says strange fellow as he shrugs...

Some time later in a secluded mountainy area...

Asmodean cautiously approaches a waterfall where a beautiful woman is bathing... he spends several minutes ogling and stuff. :)

Suddenly the beautiful woman looks around and sees our favourite forsaken. "HOW DARE YOU!!!"She yells."I'll... I'll decorate my throne with your skin!!!"
Suddenly all goes dark...


Asmodean bows humbly and says "Yes Great Lord. I live to serve you."

In Randland after Camelyn is taken by the Dragon Reborn...
Asmodean makes his way to the pantry to find some good wine. As he nears the door he sees someone he recognizes...but it's impossible...his mother died over 3000 years ago... "You!!!" he yells.
Suddenly his skin starts to bubble and is removed completely as death takes him.

A beautiful woman stands with the Forsaken's skin in her hand. "You didn't think I could find you here did you?" she says with a smile.

A few hours later...
A servant approaches the pantry door of the Royal Palace and sees a skinned human body on the floor. "Blood and bloody ashes! Wow! These savages expect me to... well... I guess he is the Dragon Reborn... if this is what he wants for dinner..." the servant sighs and takes out his butchering knife. "The things I have to do these..." servant sighs...
Sam Mickel
618. Samadai

those links are at post 205 by fortune_prick_me. those links are some of the funniest things i've read in a while.

"what are you doing over there?" "nothing, go light."

I think I can hold off going completely zombie if the post comes soon.
argh... headdesk... drool
Abdel Masdoua
619. TheDarkOne
*shots aiel1219 with BFG*

"What are you doing?"
"Nothing. Go Light."

*wink wink*

Oh, and also *twitch twitch*
"You can't save him... He's one of them now... Light, Have Mercy!"
620. stepper
perhaps if we all start chanting "WE WANT LEIGH! WE WANT LEIGH"
Amar Ramraj
621. aiel1219
"Sheesh!!! You people are so weak!!"
"Grow some will power!!!"
Rubs his upper left arm...
Thinks to himself:Good thing I found that Leighcotine patch on ebay...*sigh*
jane reynolds
622. janie
Oh, man! You guys are killing me. I've got to get up in ... 5 1/2 hours, ugh ... and you keep giving me reasons not to turn off my computer just yet. Bad WOTers! *twitch* I know, where is my self control? I'll tell you where, it went out the window about a week ago when the withdrawal started! *twitch* It's getting worse! *twitch*
I'll chant! Pick me! Pick me! *twitch twitch twitch*
Abdel Masdoua
623. TheDarkOne

Leighcotine patch???

Mine, Mine! Gimme Gimme!

Uuuh, sorry dude, don't know where that came from!

Richard Fife
624. R.Fife
@623 it's from Sword of Truth. Shota killed Asmo!
625. Mark-S
So this is what its like to be stilled
jane reynolds
627. janie
LOL yes! That definitely explains the nutty around here recently! *twitch*
Brett Michie
628. bchurch

Is this the line for the Leigh-thadone Clinic?

*scratches at the WoTrack marks on my arms*
629. Tonybere
Leighcotine patch! Best one yet. LOL.

p.s. - twitch
Amar Ramraj
630. aiel1219
Well hopefully Leigh will weave some fire and spirit for us sometime soon!!!

Too bad she wields Saidar... well for all you other Saidar wielders... enjoy da slide down da Siuan slope! Ha Ha (Nelson Laugh)

(errr... too much??? Mb I better get a fresh Leighcotine patch!!!)

P.S. Thanks Samadai :) I was goin nuts thinking abt lookin fer that post
Leigh Butler
631. leighdb
Good Lord, you guys.

I'm fine, just busy.

JordanCon report to go up very soon, I think.
632. stepper
oh good, I was getting cramps from being in the fetal position under my desk....not to mention the looks my coworkers were giving.
Sam Mickel
633. Samadai
Come on over here kiddies. i'e got all your needs.

leighcotine, leigh-thadone, leigh-ine, leigh-coset
Brett Michie
634. bchurch
Shhhh everybody!!! She's back and she can hear us! Let's lay down on our mats and pretend to take a nap until snack time and maybe she'll read us a story.
Sam Mickel
635. Samadai
yeah Leighs here.

Dont worry Leigh were not browbeating you were just entertaining ourselves
Abdel Masdoua
636. TheDarkOne
She's Alive!


*wink wink*

@R.Fife 624:

I know!
That was supposed to be sarcastic...
BTW, can't wait for Leigh's report (and yours too) about JordanCon!

Can't Wait!
Really Can't Wait!
*twitches twitches*
Oh, not again!
637. hoping to be of the blood
I am proud that I did not contribute to this morning's looniness :)

(oops, I just did)

Maggie M
638. Eswana
@ 631

LEIGH LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can we get that on buttons and bumper stickers?
Sean Jones
639. PersonOfTheDragons
I can't believe I read that entire thing. Good lord. Good stuff, don't get me wrong, but damn guys.
640. Tonybere
I can make that happen. How much are you looking to spend?
Amar Ramraj
641. aiel1219
She's Here! I can feel her presence!

"What is wrong with you?!" He demands in a commanding voice.

"Well as to that, it's nothing My Lord" he answers himself sniveling in a thick Lugarder accent.
Helen Peters
642. Helen
Has anyone else been over to the index page and just repeatedly clicked refresh? Or is that just me?

Got to go do dinner now, so I won't get to read the new post til later.

Oh and Jennifer Saunders (AbFab mum), is so not Elaida.
Chiara Elvira
643. elvyelvy
I'd see much better Patsy (AbFab) as Elaida.
Jennifer Saunders should be a great Verin, instead.

Who would have thought that twitch after twitch (not to mention the tutu dancing and all the rest) we would make it all sane and sound? (oh heck, more or less)

And some more names should be added to the Twitching Wot List!!! Where's the damn PWRT (Post-Withdrawal-Rescue-Team )?
Richard Fife
644. R.Fife
You think you are safe, and Leigh perhaps has given you hope, but now we are in Pablo's hands. I met the man, he is evil. No one who wears that much black could possibly be a goodguy unless they are emo, and Pablo is far from an emo. So yeah, evil. He is probably in a dark room somewhere, watching the twitching, and smiling. I'll be a my fine silver pen against a blueberry!
Luke M
645. lmelior
We were good Leigh, I swears!

* waves hand slowly in front of Leigh's face *

You don't need to read these comments.

These are not the comments you're looking for.

Move along.
Sam Mickel
646. Samadai
Your Jedi mind tricks don' work here. Now where was I. These aren't the posts I was looking for
Chiara Elvira
647. elvyelvy
No discrespect, R.Fife, but the evil guy here it's YOU, selfishly not posting anything at all about JordanCon... *very little twitch*
you are just lucky that me and my twitches are the wrong side of the Great Sea. *sigh*
Blake Engholm
648. UncrownedKing

Praise the Lord Praise the Lord, She is back and shes brought our fix
I now have the Tweak (south park anyone) twitch going.

All this nonsense aside, I've really enjoyed Geekin' out with ya'll these past 8 days.
Richard Fife
649. R.Fife
Leigh's Recap!

Totally cool they did it in Youtube-podcast with lots of video from the con.

And I'm not evil, I am just being respectful to Leigh.
Blake Engholm
650. UncrownedKing
did anyone else click that and get the "Never gonna give you up" music video?

If thats a joke, its evil.
Ellie Virgo
651. Egglie
Thats so unfair - the video is not available in my country apparently :-(

I have been twitching (quietly) for days!

And laughing a lot, thanks to all the comedy contributors.
652. almuric
Oh no you didn't! A Rick-roll? Here? Is there nothing sacred anymore?

Of course, youtube is blocked at work. I'm just guessing. But I'm pretty sure...
653. Tonybere
Totally evil. So evil you might say it is e-vil. That has to be about my most hated song of all time!! It sticks in your head like a barbed arrow. And doesn't feel nearly as nice! I shake my fist at you RFife!!!
Chiara Elvira
654. elvyelvy
*sniff* *chinraising* *fists-on-hips*
I told you he's evil.
Nothing's sacred anymore. Blood and bloody ashes!!!
Rick Astley *pfaughhhhhh*
Sean Jones
655. PersonOfTheDragons
That has to be the first time I've ever seen anyone say blood and bloody ashes in response to a Rick Roll, freakin hilarious.
Maggie M
656. Eswana
R Fife just rickrolled us. Seriously dude. :-)

I see your rickroll and raise you this

Helen @ 642
Has anyone else been over to the index page and just repeatedly clicked refresh? Or is that just me?

YES. ::hangs head in shame::

"Hi, my name is _______ and I'm a WoT-oholic."

Now let's all try it, shall we?
Maggie M
657. Eswana
dude, my link didn't work. Gah. for those with a few minutes to kill:
Amar Ramraj
658. aiel1219
@ R.Fife ROFLOL!!!!!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
My gf thought I was looking for the song on u tube for her when she heard it... she was like... "what put u in such a corny mood tonight??" (yes corny no mis-spelling there)

oh yeah... totally evil man...

Brett Michie
659. bchurch
Rick Astley? Really?

A Shaido dog has more honor.

Well, maybe not. But it's still low.
Ellie Virgo
660. Egglie
ha. I am a whole lot less disappointed now!

I positively pleased but quite surprised that rick astly is apparently not available in my country.

still pointlessly hitting that refresh button though. I am going to have to switch off and get some dinner at some point . . .
Blake Engholm
661. UncrownedKing
Someone go get the BFG, this ends now R.FIFE!!

Carai an caldazar!!
Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin!!
Chiara Elvira
662. elvyelvy
you know you are hopelessly WoT-oholic when:
1- you click refresh every 2 minutes waiting for a post (bl.. oops where's Leigh? where?)
2- your beloved is "shade of my heart" (at least sometimes)
3- your swearing gets increasingly "creative" and draws quizzical funny looks from other people
4- you are in front of your computer late at night lurking for new comments
5- you laugh so loud that the abovesaid "shadeblabla" wakes up... read some400 posts back for the full story .
6- you start singing Rick-bloodandbloodyashes-Astley (it's all your fault R.Fife)
7- you twitch from time to time, while you sniff
Blake Engholm
663. UncrownedKing
Hi my name is UnCrownedKing and I'm a WOTaholic.

I used to have a name but it was forgotten in ages past. In an age some call the 2nd age, others call it January. I no longer remember ever reading anything that didn't have bad cover art, and sniffing women in it. I have begun wondering if the people I know are heroes reborn again. And, finally, for the last two months I have been trying to reach out and find wolves in my area. I now fear that Slayer is relocated to somewhere around central Ohio.
664. hoping to be of the blood
Henceforth, R.Fife shall be known as

The Betrayer of Hope
The Shadow's Lance
Rick-roller of the WOT possessed
Torturer of puppies
665. stepper
I think my refresh button is broken, and I am starting to twitch again *twitch*

@R.Fife....may Mistress Luhan and her frying pan find you while under the impression that you stolen a pie from her kitchen!
thank goodness youtube is blocked at my workplace too......
Luke M
666. lmelior
Youtube's blocked for me too, but I recognized the video ID. Cracking up at possibly the most successful rickroll I've ever witnessed.

Well-played, sir, well-played indeed.
Richard Fife
667. R.Fife
*hiding in a cuendillar bombshelter*
668. hoping to be of the blood
oops, verification code slipped in
669. Smatt
R.Fife needs a good headdesking from everyone who clicked on the link.
Maggie M
670. Eswana
the last time I was this excited and tense was 11:59 pm the night before Deathly Hallows came out.

But at least at Barnes and Noble they have a good cafe.

We don't have cheesecake and frappacinos in my office.

Jay Shifflette
671. jaybird
I just received an email from someone called The Dark Lord offering eternal life and the link to the next post, if I swear allegiance to the Dark…. What should I do?
Chiara Elvira
672. elvyelvy
cuendillar won't save you, R.Fife the PostBane!!!

....may Mistress Luhan and her frying pan find you while under the impression that you stolen a pie from her kitchen!

Can we add Daise Congar in her worst temper too? yesss, my preciousss, yess, he betrayed uss, the sneaky hobbitfife.
Brett Michie
673. bchurch
Ok, I was gonna suggest balefiring RFife in his heartstone bunker . . but while that might burn his thread back far enough to remove the like, it won't stop the memories. No, no more! I can't take it! It was bad enough in the 80s!!!

Sigh. Going back to Fringe on hulu.
Deborah Jones
674. NanaD

In the words of a former First Lady,

675. ToasterJ
this has gotten absolutely rediculous. I wish they had a page view counter for the re-read index. hundreds of thousands yet, do you think?

And as for you, R Fife, and your rickrolling shenannigans: Touche salesman, Touche.
Blake Engholm
676. UncrownedKing

Only if he gives you Andor to rule. And all the Saldean farm girls dancing the sa'sahra you can handle. Then, and only then, i'd say yes.
Amar Ramraj
677. aiel1219
I know the perfect punishment for him!!!
We should marry him to Faile!!!!!
Helen Peters
678. Helen
I think we all clicked.

@643 Elvyelvy
Not Patsy either, noooo, I still think of her as Purdy (showing age disgracefully). Now there's a trio...Purdy = Eg (or maybe Mo), Steed = Thom, and the other bloke can be one of the lads (not sure which one)... that is if the time machine can take us back as far as the 70's so they're not too old.
Chiara Elvira
679. elvyelvy
wicked, very wicked! AGREED, but only if Sevanna is Faile's maid, which should make her temper even worse...
680. bookworm
Perhaps R.Fife (great trick, btw) has just guaranteed that the next JordanCon will be well attended (if he's going as well).

Oh yeah. He'll be reprising his role as Mat just after getting caught stealing pies.

Women's Circle has the first go, and the Village Council can have what's left.

Who is up for playing a part in that skit? ROLMAO.
Sam Mickel
681. Samadai
Almost clicked the link then decided to readthe posts first. No Rick Astley songs in my head.
682. Siuanfan
I didn't click it. *smug*

Bela and I laugh at all of your easily-fooledness!
Amar Ramraj
683. aiel1219
I wonder Y the WoT reread index got Hot Bookmark Status. LOL!!!

I hope we get a new installment soon... b4 we revert to the Thundercats Saga!!!

ohh... As I was previewing this comment I noticed R.Fife saying he'd be gophering a panel Leigh was on... wasn't sure what gophering was so I Googled it n found this (WARNING: Maybe gross and sickening to some)
1. gophering
when you have to shit really bad, but you aren't close to a bathroom, the turd starts to come out, but you suck it back in your ass as you walk swiftly to the john. like a gopher popping out of a hole.
i had to shit so bad, that turd was gophering!
2.When working in a cube farm, the sticking up of one's head above the hedge to see or hear what other coworkers are doing.
After the discussion of John's wife sleeping with the office manager, I found myself gophering a lot more than usual.
Richard Fife
684. R.Fife
Wow... it is actually a malpropism from "Go For" like telling a person to Go For something (go fetch, even). It then became gofer and now is just gopher. I was their little errand boy.

Oh, and your Faile attack is ineffective. Recall, I'm one of the few Faile lovers. MWAHHAH
Matias Miguez
685. meiyas

I sense something, a presence I've not felt since...
F Shelley
686. FSS
Wow - it's like time travel IS possible in WoT (or at least its message boards). We've apparently been transported to 2007.
Chiara Elvira
687. elvyelvy
... a presence I have not felt since... last week.

Must go and fetch some nourishment for the High Lord of my heart. Some gara for dinner, that's what he's going to have, if the post is not coming soon.
*no strength left to .. TWICTCH*
F Shelley
688. FSS
And if Leigh doesn't hurry, we're going to revert back to a long winded "discussion" about spanking...
Galen Brinn
690. GatheringStorm

Damn, you R.Fife. Damn you all to Hell.
691. BookFairy
I fart in your general direction!
and curse at you with a snooty french accent.
Helen Peters
692. Helen
683. aiel1219

And almost wetting yourself laughing, is that like gophering?
694. Tonybere
Something I've been meaning to ask, and since we seem to have ALOT of time on our hands: what is RAFO? Please forgive my ignorance.
695. ben Frey
Read And Find Out!
696. Smatt
@684 if you're a Faile lover how about a week trapped in a sweat tent with Elaida.....

Yes, that is a naked and sweaty Elaida.

Richard Fife
697. R.Fife
@694: "Read And Find Out" It was RJ's favorite way to answer a question he did not want to answer, like "Who killed Asmo?"

Naked/Sweaty Elaida would be terrifying. Thus why I am still in my cuendillar bunker.
698. cps2195
Tonybere @ 694: RAFO (sorry couldn't resist)

it means read and find out. whenever RJ was asked a question he didn't want to answer he always gave the RAFO
Maggie M
699. Eswana
Read and Find Out.

Or, the plague of all our existences. RJ was (in)famous for using RAFO as an answer to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING fans asked him a 'cons, interviews, etc.

RAFO: it's a way of life.
Chiara Elvira
700. elvyelvy
now I know, R.Fife's punishment will be Elaida naked/sweaty pheromonedinhis bloody cuendillar bunker.
Bunker's sealed.
Alè, revenge is sweet *sweet so sweet, blood so swee.... yeeck* (sorry, I slipped into Machin Shin mode)
Roger Powell
701. forkroot
Rhetorical question: What is worse, 700+ posts or the fact that I've read them all?
Brett Michie
702. bchurch
Maybe as Ishamael was also known as Ba'alzamon, Bela is also known as RAFO.

Would answer a lot of questions.

Or, perhaps, as Isam and Luc merge to become Slayer, Bela and Narg become RAFO.

Sorry, very cheesy, I know. Just suffering from post-withdrawal hallucinations.
Maggie M
703. Eswana
also: did anyone capture The Skit on video at JordanCon? I will bear your children if you put it on youtube.
Maggie M
704. Eswana
also: did anyone capture The Skit on video at JordanCon? I will bear your children if you put it on youtube.
Galen Brinn
706. GatheringStorm
700 posts should be cheered...if there were actual discussion and not a bunch of WoT addicts slipping deeper and deeper into withdrawals and zombie-ism.

Nevertheless, it's been a fun ride getting to this point.


*thinks to self: Naked/Sweaty Elaida?! My eyes!! My EYES!!!"
707. markp

its up!!
708. Smatt
@ R.Fife

Forgot to mention that there would be touching and Elaida will make you her prison pillow friend.

Ok sorry everyone I even made myself a bit sick there.

Need a post quick.
Helen Peters
709. Helen
707. markp

I thought you meant part 11 there.

Not fair.
710. stepper
*twitch* *laughs the nervous laughter only heard from condemned men and idiots*
need post

Oh and Smatt.....dang....naked sweaty Elaida...NOW I understand how Couladin's brother felt in the rings at Rhuidean!!
711. markp
709. Helen
Ha ha, unfortunately I think you are going to have to wait another couple of days.
712. almuric
I'm thinking that Leigh's Con summary is all we're gonna get today. I'm guessing the next chapter summary will be on Friday.

Anybody got any links to JordanCon pictures? I would be interested in finding out what everyone looks like.
Alice Arneson
714. Wetlandernw
Any ideas how we can sneak a badger and a taxi into RFife's cuendillar bunker?
Richard Fife
716. R.Fife
ACK! No! Not the and the taxi! Anything but that! Please, I gave you guys a second dose of recap! Please!!!!!! *cries and blubbers*
Alice Arneson
717. Wetlandernw
Okay, okay. The beaver got away from me, so I had to try the badger instead. He wasn't too happy about it anyway. And after two recaps, the twitches are beginning to fade. Not sure it's enough to last until Friday, but then there's some good entertainment to be had in 700+ (are we nuts or what?????!!!!!!) posts. Is anyone taking bets on how high we get before the Friday post?
Roger Powell
718. forkroot
How high we get? For me, probably not as far gone as Leigh last Sat night - wouldn't want to face the morning.
Alice Arneson
719. Wetlandernw
Uh... I was thinking of post numbers... I'm afraid the other kind of high might be more than I want to know about some of these folks... especially after reading the last 718 posts!
720. Tankard of ale
My kingdom for a new post.

Whats worse than a twitch?
Chiara Elvira
721. elvyelvy
What's worse than a twitch?

A double twitch?

Hmm, the badger's OK, they can be pretty ferocious, but the taxi?...
(with my best Seven-of-Nine voice)"Explain"
Richard Fife
722. R.Fife
It's an Invader Zim joke, there's a picture explaining it in my profile now.
Chiara Elvira
723. elvyelvy
*blushes* I got it.
Since you love cats, your toh is getting rapidly smaller.
But no more RickFifstley videos. NEVER EVER.
Richard Fife
724. R.Fife
By the Light, on my hope of salvation and rebirth.

In other news, I found the youtube of the opening ceremony at JordonCon here.
John Massey
725. subwoofer
Okay R. Fife. was gonna let you get away with post @2
but post 649 or 650 and the last @724- you need beats .
John Massey
727. subwoofer
And for all you people twitching- you can get a cream put on that.
728. Freelancer
@584 Hardcore

I know, late to this party, but I've had this .02 waiting to be tossed in about this very issue.

The thing is, EVERYTHING Elaida thinks is true, is false. She is, without a shadow (pun intended) of a doubt, the irony queen of Randland.

Elaida foretelling - "The royal line of Andor is the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle"
Elaida Interpretation - Okay, there's a succession going on, so let's see who ends up on the throne, and their family is "IT". Let's totally forget that when I had the foretelling a different family was already ruling Andor.
Reality - Mordrellin was queen of Andor at the time, and Rand is her grandson

Elaida foretelling - "Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger"
Elaida Interpretation - I get to kick Rand's sheepherder butt and tell him what to do!
Reality - Egwene and Rand finally have it out sometime just before TG gets underway, but after Elaida is persona non-grata.

Elaida Foretelling - "The black tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds"
Elaida Interpretation - I get to send a pile of sisters and tower guards to bust down the Asha'man crib, yeah baby!
Reality - Logain and Taim are on track for a major Light v. Shadow Asha'man Throwdown, and each side will have bonded Aes Sedai. Once the dust settles perhaps only the AS will still be standing.

Maybe someday she'll learn to not instantly spin her foretellings to make her the Superstar, but until she does she's just going to keep getting her Amyrlin Seat handed to her in a sack.
729. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Smatt @696
Elaida is never described as ugly. As a matter of fact she's quite striking. A bit hard, but nothing that a little sweat won't loosen up. So yeah, naked and sweaty Elaida, I'm in.
Chiara Elvira
730. elvyelvy
alreadymad@729 and people tell me I have a reckless streak...
Chiara Elvira
731. elvyelvy
subwoofer@727 you are joining RickySedai of the Byte Ajah on my personal black list...

Btw, for those of us on the other side of the Great Sea, why not Europe? Ireland could provide a nice meeting point.
("pubs so nice, beer so good, drink the beer, get the beer, sip the beer, stew so thick.... "oops I did it again)
Amar Ramraj
732. aiel1219
730 n still going strong!!! woah!!!
I've never seen this many comments without someone trying to bludgeon someelse with their(1st sum1's) POV!!!
You get touched while you are holding a butter knife and insist on being taken Gai Shain??? Are you 10 or just swimming in pride...hmmm?
EDIT:oh sorry thats from your Rand Al' Con post.

Hmmmmm... I feel another fiction on fiction thingy coming on.... should I??? Can you stand it???
Chiara Elvira
733. elvyelvy
Go ahead aiel, after last week I feel I can handle just about ANYTHING
734. McArcher
On the slopes of a mountain overlooking a city build around a great white tower The wind that has been almost dormant for the past years slowly gathers strength again and roils down the slopes towards the tower. Skirting around the buildings of the town it embraces the tower, slowly spiraling up to the top, finding its way through an open window and into the topmost room. Softly it caresses the hair of the two women sitting at a table set for two. As the wind plays with a lock of the blond ones hair the womans eyes grow large. She speaks in a deep voice, not quit her own “it turns again, the wheel turns and the pattern is woven once more”. The other woman looks at her wondering, recognizing the power of vision.
The wind exits the room through another window, still gentle but building in strength and speed, gathering it’s strength, building to a storm that rattles across the rooftops of the houses and farms it crosses until it comes past a tall city sitting on the edge of lands so riddled with evil they are lost to man. Across the blight it blows, right up to the slopes of a great mountain. At last, unleashing its full potential the gathering storm races up the slope of Shayol Gul to crash into a large boulder sitting on its peak, dislodging it and sending it down the slope, watching as it slowly gathers speek until it hurtles down the mountain at terrifying speed until it crashes into a perfectly circular disc, half black, half white, smashing it to dust. A booming voice rises from the deep, echoed by an equally strong voice from above.

News from mr Sandersons blog:

As of yesterday ( or today based on which side of the date line you’re on) he has turned in the final draft of the Gathering Storm. By his own words “the book is now officially 'In production.' That means we've hit our deadline, and the boulder--so long perched on the peak--has started rolling down the cliff. You no longer have to worry if some phantom problem is going to delay it. It is in, and it is coming.”
Chiara Elvira
735. elvyelvy
yess, my preciouss, yess, we will order you, yesss.
One book to get threads all, one book to bind them,
one book to end them all and on the bookshelf store them.

Now I believe it's gonna be November!!!!!
John Massey
736. subwoofer
elvyelvy, I figured- why should I be the only one scared for life?- Take some with me. I would gladly hop across the pond- provided there is no rain and some nice people with straight teeth greet me at the airport... Anddddd I already called "dibs" on the first book off the press- the precious is mine!-
Freelancer(?!) you wait till now to bring up a thread like that? As I remember, her visions were fairly accurate, but she always twisted the interpretations to suit her needs. That is how she became Amyrlin.
Then she lost her post and got her butt whooped. She should of foretold that...
McArcher- where did that come from?- yay if it is for real and thank you for sharing the good news.
John Massey
737. subwoofer
alreadymad@729 be careful what you wish for, it may come true.
738. McArcher
@ Subwoofer

The bottom part of my post comes stright from mr Sandersons own weblog, so yes it is very much true.

and your welcome
Chiara Elvira
739. elvyelvy
Subwoofer, by all means do hop across the Big Pond, you'll find the warmest reception here (grinning). No rain in summer -except a couple of floods here and there but nothing that can't be handled- great food wine&beer and all sorts of entertainment.

And the invitation applies to all friends here.
740. Smatt

Ok, she may be pleasing to the eye but are you seriously telling me that you could stand to be in her company for a whole week?

oh, and Mr R.Fife I ahve decided to add Galina to your little sweat fest for your second Astley offence.
Lannis .
742. Lannis
Hey guys! I just realized: back to that "let's invade another thread at Tor, ours is getting a little leggy" thought... R.Fife generously gave us a new post! Excellent reading material, shorter load time (for those with the problem). And we wouldn't even (really) be off topic!

I'm sure he wouldn't mind... what'd'ya say, R.Fife? Puh-lease?

(I might have another tutu around here somewhere to sweeten the bargain--or do you already own one?)
Chiara Elvira
743. elvyelvy
subwoofer, we would then hold a little unofficial Jordan+beerCon...

Invading the Astley-offender's post? :-) Can we? Well, he won't mind, after what he did.
Amar Ramraj
744. aiel1219
ThNKS elvy elvy :D Here goes:
Asmodean is starled awake as he feels a strange presence in his cell. He slowly opens his eyes and sees an old man with a pointy hat carrying..."What is that creature you're carrying old man!!? And who are you?!?" Suddenly he pauses and breathes out slowly."How did you get here?"

"Be careful where you're breathing young fellow..."grumbles the old man as he waves his hand infront of his nose.
"This is my good old dwarf friend. He's been having some heart troubles lately... poor old chap."

The old man frowns and says "My name is Fuzz... noo! Faz...hmmmmm. That's not it."

"Ah well it does not matter!" shrigs old n gray.
"Who are you and how did you get here? Actually... where is here??"

Asmodean answers "I'm Asmodean and I was imprisoned in this here cell like thingy along with the Great Lord of the Dark next door about 3000 years ago!"

"well that explains the morning breath..." mutters the old fellow.

"Guess I must've taken a wrong turn coming outta that big black lake with all the about that...darnit!" In a sudden flurry of movement he twirls about and disappears in a flash of bright light with the old dwarf still in his arms...but his hat slowly floats to the floor of the cell.

A disembodied hand materializes and grabs the hat as the old mans voice thunders "Come here hat!!!"

A few years later in Camelyn:
"This isn't right! Darnit! Another wrong turn!" the old man exclaims.

"Now what's that spell to teleport to that tree..." and he starts to mutter his magical words.

Asmodean comes strolling around the corner and sees the old man.
"You!!!" he shouts.

Suddenly a fireball explodes from the old mans fingertips and streaks towards Asmodean and death takes yet another Forsaken.

"Ooops. Guess that was the fireball spell..." mumbles the old man.

"Ah well! He needn't worry about morning breath anymore!"


I wonder how many will get this not so obscure cross reality Fiction on Fiction :D Most of ya shud!!!
Richard Fife
745. R.Fife
I claim no control over anything. You could be really crazy and cross post in both Leigh's recap and mine. See how many people can keep it straight.

Aiel, was that a DeathGate reference, and the old crazy sartan wizard from the "earth" world?
746. stepper
@aiel1219....alas poor Flint!lol good job

I think we can hit 800 at this point!

@735 elvyelvy...too funny!
Amar Ramraj
747. aiel1219
@745 R.Fife
Well not DeathGate...but it is a Margaret Weis thingy... LOL!!!... well she does like here crazy old wizards now doesn't she...guess it could in someway possibly be DG....but no that's not what I was thinking about.

Guess it may've been a bit more obscure than I thought :P:P:P

EDIT: Ding Ding Dind Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!!! Stepper Claims the Prize "Cross-reality fiction on fiction recognizer supreme!!!"
(btw it's a cuillendar pin that reads C-RFoFRS) LOL!!!
(Did Anyone notice the bell went all wierd on the 3rd Ding?)
748. stepper
cool! now not only is the WOT reread a 'hot bookmark' so is this particular one, #10
Amar Ramraj
749. aiel1219
Later today the Tournament of Champions Version of "Cross-Reality Fiction on Fiction Recognizer".
Well ok, mb we only have 1 champion but...

Stepper I hope you noticed your prize in the EDIT @ my 747 comment. :)

I was gonna give u a yellow shawl...but Richard hijacked the truck that was bringing em.
Sean Jones
750. PersonOfTheDragons
I'm pretty sure he's the same wizard aiel, he's Fizban in dragonlance and Zifnab(read the first three letters backwards, followed by the last three letters backwards) in Deathgate. Same personality and everything ^^
751. almuric
I've been thinking about a WoT parody. Like a Harvard Lampoon Bored of the Rings.
Possible titles:
'Spill some Thyme'?
'Spiel of Thine'?
'Krill of Brine'?
'Feeling some Whine'?
'Hair-braid-tugging for Dummies'?
'Lack of information sharing leads to everything being way harder than it should be'?

I'm thinking we assign one chapter to each person who wants to help. Make a big wiki to post them in. Then when we're done Leigh can summarize our parody. Will give her something to do while waiting for books 13 and 14 (and possibly 15 and 16).

Rand can be 'Randy'. Always trying to get in girls' pants. Uhm, dresses. Except for Min. Mat could be 'Splat' who's really clumsy but accidentally does all the correct things. (Not that far from the truth, actually. Bloody dice.) Perrin could be 'Fairy'? We could play him gay? Faile could be a young man? Would that be politically incorrect? Ishamael could be like the bad guy in Perils of Pauline. Lanfear could be like Natasha in Rocky and Bullwinkle. Elaida would be the clueless mom in Absolutely Fabulous.

Yes, I'm avoiding work this morning. Sue me.
752. hoping to be of the blood
As the Wheel Turns
Sam Mickel
753. Samadai
He lifted the golden horn to his lips and blew. A long golden note seemed to fill the air. Out of no where fog started to form and from the fog came many people riding on horses. He knew them all. There was Artur Hawkwing with his great sword Justice. Belgarion the Godslayer with his aunt Polgara and grandfather Belgarath. Behind them was Pug the mighty sorcerer with his friend Tomas the Dragonlord. Over there was Allanon and Bremen and the rest of the Scions. Behind them was Thomas Covenant wielding his white gold ring and Richard the Truthseeker with Kahlan the(damn mind block).
He grew up reading about all these great heroes along with the many others that were here. Now he would fight with them and Lead the forces of light to victory.
Gawin van Waesberghe
754. McArcher
and time passes history turned into legend and legends turned to myth and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.....
Amar Ramraj
755. aiel1219
@750 PersonOfTheDragons
actually, I agree there, but was thinking Dragonlance at the time, thus the Flint references. And besides, R.Fife already won summn this week LOL!!! The lucky lil...hmmm...what's a good insulting name...ohhh!!! The lucky lil Shaido!
(No Offense Richard... U know u're mah Stone Dog) LOL!!!

Ok, I'm bored, I think I'll go randomly re-read my favourite bits from the books e.g. Enter Shadowkiller, The Formation of The Band of The Red Hand(V 2.0), Rahvin Bites The Dust, The Homecoming Saga, The Aiel: A History.

P.S. I dunno y but whenever I read the Enter Shadowkiller bit and the chapter "the Stone Stands" (think it's called) I always seem to hear that song "Let the bodies hit the floor" int the back of my head
Chiara Elvira
756. elvyelvy
Stepper@747 hey, a certain wind we know too well and the news of the November gift gave some inspiration...

MUST see if I can pre-order it this very moment.
757. bookworm
@751 almuric.

I like your idea. But why limit ourselves? We have enough time to re-do the entire series (to date). Interested persons could be assigned alternating chapters, starting with EotW. Then, someone could stitch the separate chapters together for readers.

Three outcomes most likely. Let the hilarity ensue, borrrr-ring, or the DO has been unleashed upon our world.
Amar Ramraj
758. aiel1219
Ohhh b4 I go n leave u all in peace for a bit. I Could use some help from all you Sci-Fi/Fantasy fans out there.
I remember reading a book a few years ago about this vampire hunter(or mb she was a vampire) and her tall Pale male friend (who I think she was in love with) oh and they had a wolf/dog in the party too. Anyways all I really remember now is that initially they were phony vamp hunters until they got to some town where they met the real deal and ended up burning bits of the town down and I think they opened a bar... anyone recognizes that sorta story?
I know I read it and thought...hmmm this could be intersting, but don't remember where I read it and what it was.
N um, sorry if anyone is offended by me asking :S
759. Tankard of ale
Hmmm, This reminds me of the earlier RJ years where I would rush out to buy the next book. Alas. it would be read within two or three days. Then it would dawn on me that it would be another year plus before another would appear.

Could never get use to the twitch or the wait.
760. bookworm
The Noble Dead Saga? By barb and J.C. Hendee.

Magiere, the Dhampir.

It's a series.
761. Barrison
@758 aiel1219

That's the Noble Dead saga by Barb & JC Hendee
762. Freelancer

I didn't "bring it up", referring to Elaida's failure at interpreting her foretellings. I was responding to a (much) earlier post. Besides, we aren't really far enough along in the re-read for that to be a major factor, but since it was mentioned...


Most definitely the final offering:
Lack of information sharing leads to everything being way harder than it should be

It always kills me that the Ta'veren Trio (TM) blow off the VERY LARGE CLUE happening in their heads whenever they think of each other, because they are too busy with Something More Important than Beating the Dark One.

Of course, a close second is how important several members of the Core Crew have become, and yet avoid each other's sphere of influence/assistance, feeling the need to Do It My Way.

I sometimes think that RJ was trying to tell us something, but when I think that I suddenly forget why I was thinking. I can't remember if thinking it was important, just that thinking it makes me not think.


F Shelley
763. FSS
...Then RIchard the Truthseeker got angry and unleashed his most dangerous weapon of all...


...and the story resolved itself without any really good story telling, followed by 200 pages of Ayn Rand bull@#$%.
765. Freelancer
Oh, and Samadai...

You wouldn't really bring together all those heroes and leave out Drizzdt Do'Urden, would you? If that Horn is going to call back the Magician of Both Paths, and the Last Valheru, wouldn't it also call Macross the Black? I'm sure that in this turning of the Wheel, McAllister meets Mat, and provides him all the weapons he needs from one of the shops.
766. stepper

Damn! I would really liked to have had that shawl!
Richard Fife
767. R.Fife
*sports his yellow shawl and asha'man pins*

What was really funny is that I was wearing a green shirt, and apparently the yellow offset the green rather nicely. Several of the ladies were commenting on how color coordinated I was.

Oh, and to be honest, don't expect to ever see me in that shawl again. It was cute, but I think I shall keep it in waiting for if I ever find my own personal Nynaeve (or other Aes Sedai healer).
Sam Mickel
768. Samadai
No I would not forget any of them I just did not want to make anyone mad by posting every hero from every book I have read. Then you guys would be locking me up with a mad beaver and taxi, which I do not understand what that is in reference to.
Lannis .
769. Lannis
Blood and ashes, I think we might actually hit #800...

You all realize, of course, if we do, and it actually does crash Tor's server (probably won't--but hey, everyone was worried about Y2K, right?), we are only self-sabotaging our next hit of Teh Reread by Leigh...
770. Seanie
@683 Aiel1219:
wow , i never knew there was a name for that...
is there a different name for it when wearing a shawl ?
Galen Brinn
771. GatheringStorm
Richard the Truthseeker...*shudders*...

I read the first four books of that, I think and then gave up. The first couple of books were good, the third meh...the fourth just got sucky. I never bothered to pick up any of the rest.

Any more fiction-fiction?
772. TheDarkOne'sTaint
You will feel the fangs on your back as you are dragged to the Pit of Doom and you will be given a third name and it will be BARNEY
Blake Engholm
773. UncrownedKing
@ 765

"Oh, and Samadai...

You wouldn't really bring together all those heroes and leave out Drizzdt Do'Urden, would you?"

You took the words right out of my mouth. Love that series to death. Don't entirely know why, but I do.

Drizzit = ninja, night-elf, bad ass
Galen Brinn
774. GatheringStorm
Drizzt Do'Urden: Best dual-wield scimitar warrior/ninja eva!
775. Freelancer

While I had read The Hobbit and LOTR at a young age, as well as the seven Narnia books, I had gone a long time without any interest in the fantasy genre, steering more towards "pure" sci-fi. (Van Vogt, Asimov, Bradbury, Verne, Wells, Adams, etc)

Then, one day while waiting for a friend to get off work, standing in a B&N, I picked up this book named Homeland just to pass some time. Within 20 pages I was a hardcore Salvatore fan, which quickly led to becoming seriously obsessed with fantasy epics.

While deployed at sea several years later, shipmates started dropping off finished books at my desk, knowing my voracious reading habit. Among them was TEOTW. That was not the beginning, for there are neither...well, you know.
Abdel Masdoua
776. TheDarkOne

Nice, Real Nice!

GatheringStorm@771, FSS@763:

Since we are talking about that (SoT), I honestly couldn't finish the last books.
I think I still may - because I bought them after all *shame* - but it kept getting duller and duller...

Thank God for RJ's talent!
Galen Brinn
777. GatheringStorm
"Thank God for RJ's talent!"

No kidding, TheDarkOne. It's been so long since I looked at a SoT book, I had to look them up to remember what went on in which...and yeah, book 4 is the last one I read. LAME.

I know that WoT books 8 (to some extent), 9 (except for The Cleansing) and 10 were kind of slow reading (a few month's WoT time spread out over 3 books and more than 4 real life years), but by comparison, they are still miles above and beyond SoT.
778. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Smatt @740
Come on, you go to a sweat tent to relax and unwind. She's there to relax and unwind. I'm there to relax and unwind. And ogle discreetly. Big effing deal.

Aiel1219 @744, R.Fife @745
I don't read Margaret Weis much. But it sounds like Fizban. Or Banfiz, or whatever.

Samadai @753
Kahlan the confessor. Or was it mother confessor?
Galen Brinn
779. GatheringStorm
alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed, you don't like Everyone's Favorite Wizard/God (TM), Fizban?!?!?

Kahlan is a Confessor, Mother Confessor by title.
Blake Engholm
780. UncrownedKing
@775 Freelancer

I discovered him much the same way. At a B&N. I was looking for something new (had just finished reading one of Fiest's newer ones "Talon of the Silverhawk" maybe)

The cover grabbed at me (I always feel bad if I pick up a book for its cover) and I had heard of R.A. Salvy before, so I bought it. After that first book thats all I read man.

They are some really really good books. Heard some critisizm about him a ways back from someone and I couldn't help but go off on a tangent about how wrong that is.

Guenhwyvar = best pet EVER
781. bookworm
@780 UncrownedKing.

Guenhwyvar is NOT a pet. Luck for you! I recently misplaced my Wand of Balefire. Anyway...

Salvatore comes to GenCon every year, so I get to talk to him briefly at book signings and such. He's a pretty cool guy.

Speaking of criticism, I once attended a Writer's Workshop, and that author had unkind words to say about RJ and his work. Jealousy. It's a terrible thing.
Abdel Masdoua
782. TheDarkOne

Elaida? Really?? Really???
Dude, You seriously lost it! ^^
I think the effects of Post-Withdrawal have reached critical failure in your brain! ;)

"We are losing them! Thank God SHE is back..."
"What about the ones already tainted?"
"They are lost..."
Or something to that effect...
Galen Brinn
783. GatheringStorm
bookworm, since it's probably not a good idea to name names, can you confirm my suspicion? I have to wonder if it's a guy who wrote something called TSoT series...
Blake Engholm
784. UncrownedKing
Shame on me I had a miss spelling there.

You see I have large fingers and this keyboard is so hard to use. So when I ment to type in companion, because whose a better ally than Guenhwyvar?, I accidentally typed "Pet".

You see its all a missunderstanding.
Abdel Masdoua
785. TheDarkOne

I am not wondering, we all know it IS him...

Jealousy, really not cool!
Galen Brinn
786. GatheringStorm
No kidding. It's a shame, too; 'cause The-Series-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named had promise. Before it crashed and burned.
Blake Engholm
787. UncrownedKing
Are we talking about what I think we are talking about? If so, I never enjoyed said series. Bored me to tears.
788. bookworm
@783 GatheringStorm & @785 TheDarkOne,

This is the only answer (one way or another) anybody is getting, but no, not who you are thinking of.

@784 UncrownedKing.

Harrummph. Harrummph.
Richard Fife
789. R.Fife
Hey now kiddies, I'm a sword-hater as much as the next Jordan fan, but lets keep the thread positive and about WoT and not stoop down to others' levels.
Galen Brinn
790. GatheringStorm
Well. I have to say I'm a bit surprised, but that's pleasant news to hear, bookworm.

Yes Uncrowned, we are discussing The-Series-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Said series had a main character by the name of Richard-something-or-other, and a sidekick named Kahlan-Mother-something-or-other.
Galen Brinn
791. GatheringStorm
Not trying to stoop or cause such negative vibes that this thread would be in danger, R.Fife (and no sarcasm intended here). Apologies all around if previous remarks were taken in such context.
Sam Mickel
792. Samadai
Of course I would not forget Drizzt, I just didn't want to bore people with my extreme fantasy obsessions.

Yes he is awesomeness and there are so many cool characters fro mso many books it was hard to decide who to put in my little fiction fiction. I have wat to many characters rattling around in my tin can.
Sean Jones
793. PersonOfTheDragons
Samadai, I'm pretty sure you can...we're all here because of our extreme fantasy obsessions.
794. bookworm
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I didn't get a Harrummph from you.
Blake Engholm
795. UncrownedKing
If there was a place where you wouldnt bore anyone..... its here. ha

And ZOMG this thread just got legit, 795?? How have none of us gotten fired??

Go Light!!
Sean Jones
797. PersonOfTheDragons
I'm pretty sure we haven't gotten fired because of a lack of proper supervision Uncrowned.
798. bookworm
We've gotta protect our phoney baloney posts, ladies and gentlemen!

And who amongst us is hovering over the Post button hoping to be post #800?
Sean Jones
799. PersonOfTheDragons
I already got 750, I'll open up 800 for the next guy ^^
Blake Engholm
800. UncrownedKing

Edit: HAAHHA YUS!!!!!!!!!!
Chiara Elvira
802. elvyelvy
so we got to fabled 800+!!!!

damn the preview-post buttons, loading time is awful now
803. stepper
804. bookworm
Ladies and gentlemen, this record of postings will be a giant step forward in the treatment of the fanatical WoT-er.

Give that UncrownedKing a gold star!
Galen Brinn
805. GatheringStorm
For those with issues on page-loading-time, what type of Internet connection are you on? I'm only on DSL 1.5 MB and have no issues.
Chiara Elvira
806. elvyelvy
not to mention that I type holding my cat with my left arm, as he likes to rest on... well, near my neck

Connection? 7 or 8 MB, Adsl, LAN 100 MB, still the page flutters and flickers
Alice Arneson
807. Wetlandernw
FWIW, if you count all our comments on RFife's and Leigh's JordanCon reports, we should now be right about 917 posts...

Sad. Very sad.
Sam Mickel
808. Samadai
at least were not twitching are way to wotzombiehood anymore.
John Massey
810. subwoofer
Thank you all for taking it to 800 as I wished. The Tor server has really started to grind. Now for my plans for world domination- by taking over 1 Starbucks at a time and ransoming coffee to the highest bidder- who's with me?
And Uncrowned- damn it man! does no one work for a living? Having tons of time to hover around the coveted post?!
Abdel Masdoua
811. TheDarkOne

But it's not sad at all!
It shows to the whole world how much we love WOT and what a great part of our lives it is, and...

All right, I suck, I'm a no-life, I'm a geek, I'm a WoT-oholic and Leigh addict, I'm even a wotzombie...


Disregard that comment, you're right:
It's sad. Very sad.

Abdel Masdoua
812. TheDarkOne

Well, since I've not much to do this time of the year - besides lurking around here - I'm with you!
I guess I'm gonna be your liaison to the Europe Unit for World Domination!
Sir, Yessir!

John Massey
813. subwoofer
and My work network has a huge pipeline for the net and it drags. I have a cable in at home and it is lightening fast 15Mbps and it drags. It's not about the connection- clear cut case of server issue.
Brett Michie
814. bchurch
Would it be too much to include some scifi heroes in the saga? Could we possibly have Ender bouncing from planet to planet in relativity induced youth until he comes back to earth to find the Wheel has turned and a new age, called the third by some, is now gathering it's storms for Tarmon Gai'don?

Buggers vs Trollocs anyone?

Ehh too much, I know.

ps I only made it about 40 pages into said unnamed series . . couldn't hang. RJ spoiled me, I guess.
Sam Mickel
815. Samadai
How about Hope Hubris or the Blue Adept
816. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
Fizban, maybe I'm just not sold on a clone of Gandalf, who is himself a clone of Merlin. The doddering clumsy old mage with secret god-like powers stereotype really gets just that, old.
Regarding The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named, I've never actually read it, so no opinion aside from my reading a lot that Kahlan is hot.
As for Elaida, you guys should lighten up. I've already picked Graendal for boinking so I'm guessing she's loads more dangerous than some spoiled but otherwise striking Amyrlin relaxing and unwinding in a sweat tent. Which is what people do in a sweat tent and what I'll be doing as well. And in case you haven't noticed, even were the taint to be miraculously cleansed it's too late for me. Go Light. Elaida, just sit and relax, here I come.
817. Smatt
Subwoofer and TheDarkOne AKA Pinky and the Brain.

What are you going to do tomorrow night?
Sam Mickel
818. Samadai
Hey everyone, has posted what they believe is the inside jacket cover for the Gathering Storm, talks about Rand and Egwene.
John Massey
819. subwoofer
DarkOne- how did you know?- ps. it is a secret- don't tell anyone else. I have a disintegration ray to deal with Smatt. Then onto world domination! mwahahahaha
820. Smatt

Ok, point made. I should have guesed that you and Lews have a party going on in your head. Hell mabye a week with Elaida would turn you sane.
821. Smatt
Hey subwoofer me and Captain Hammer go way back so don't try anything.

Oh and R.Fife shawl and pins.... our first hearmaphrodite OP user. Hats of to you sir/miss.
822. Tankard of ale
Is it Friday yet ?

Is it Friday Yet ?

Is it Friday yet ?

Galen Brinn
823. GatheringStorm
Never had an issue with this page/site loading, either on the DSL at work or my cable modem at home...hmmm.
Amar Ramraj
824. aiel1219
Woah!!! And we still got hours to go. I missed the big 800 bash aww nuts. Well its Friday 6 am here... I just got home after a night of dinner dancing lots o booze and uhhh.... ok we'll leave it at that. Suffice to say, I've been away from home for a while and my gf is here for my b'day (well she's here for 2 weeks but my b'day is in there)

Thanks bookworm@760 and Barrison@761. Now I got that stuck in my head I gotta go find those books somehow and read em...I hate that about me... I even HAD to finish that series that everyone was bashing *goes red in the face and runs away to hide*
John Massey
825. subwoofer
@823 You must be the chosen one. No sweat... the truly hardcore can deal with the lag. And Smatt, Ash is my copilot. mwahahhahaha
826. alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed
You forgot to tug on your brain. err.. braid
John Massey
827. subwoofer
aeil, don't feel so bad- some people read dictionaries and enjoy it....
828. Smatt
Ok subwoofer I'm going to call in some favours from The Screwdriver, Pliers Dude and The Thing You Use To Start The Hole With Man.

Thats right, I'm toolin up and you're goin down.
John Massey
829. subwoofer
R.Rife, was drinking goofy juice and I just figured out the deathgate reference. It has been a lifetime ago that I read that series. Brings back many ford memories of simpler times.
John Massey
830. subwoofer
R.Rife, was drinking goofy juice and I just figured out the deathgate reference. It has been a lifetime ago that I read that series. Brings back many fond memories of simpler times.
John Massey
831. subwoofer
R.Rife, was drinking goofy juice and I just figured out the deathgate reference. It has been a lifetime ago that I read that series. Brings back many fond memories of simpler times.
Alice Arneson
832. Wetlandernw
Uh-oh. Subwoofer is twitching again... Where ARE those guys in the white coats?
833. Smatt
Nothing to do with twitching just wants the kudos of reaching 900 solo.
834. Tankard of ale
Wow, 19984 views for this thread out there last last time I checked.

Must be a lot of twitching going on out there.
Pablo Defendini
835. pablodefendini
Wow, you guys are tenacious! Remind me to never ever give Leigh a proper vacation—you guys would go crazy! (just kidding, of course...or am I?) How about we move the convo over to Leigh's and R. Fife's recaps until Leigh comes back with the WoT reread proper tomorrow?

Oh, and: 835 w00t!!!! :D
836. akaaiel1219
TOR guys if u read this... I can't see this post when I log in with my account aiel1219 but I can see it as a guest.
Get that error others are complaining abt when I log in.
837. subwooofer
Yeah? Well, we have a saying in our country- help me my balls are on fire!
838. subwooofer
crap basket.... that came out wrong....
839. akaaiel1219
@837 subwooofer
and a lot of Giggling. techs
we are indeed sorry for the issues our WoT rave caused and if u fix this we'll try to behave better next time we are unsupervised... honest!

Tortechs!! tortechs!!
they da bomb!!!
if they can't do it!!
No one can!!!

ok that was me for the female tor techs (I'm in a tutu)

Now some of u female WoTers give us a cheer to help motivate the male Tor Techs... :)
(If any of the male Tor Techs are motivated by me cheering for u in a tutu then ALL THE BETTER!!!)
840. subwoofer
aiel- i dunno- I think it's a union gig. They knock off at 4 and break for tea. No fear... there is always tomorrow to take over the world.
841. akaaiel1219
Oh oh oh!!! can I be Larry puuuuuhhhhhleeeeeeeeaaaaasssseeeee???

I wanna start writing my next cros-reality fiction on fiction... but there will soon be no1 here to read it... *sniff sniff*
842. subwoofer
sure- go hard- no fear- when Leigh hears about this at the next staff or tech meeting, I am fairly confident that she will either ban us or call us out in front of the class by name. um.... Hi Leigh.... I did not break the lovely was the other guy... I saw him... looked like Lan... saw him run into TAR...
843. Freelancer
@840 subwoofer,

Would that be The Long, Dark, Teatime of the Soul?
844. subwoofer
He started it! What we need is a motivational speech. We were so close to 1000. Oh well Leigh will save us in a bit...
845. TheDarkOne_with_an_InvisibilityCloack
Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 50331648 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1318046 bytes)...
Yadi Yada Yada...

First Time Ever Something Like That Happened On My Computer!

Kudos Everyone, now I've got to hide in order to try and post something here...
Mother's Milk In A Cup, the techs are gonna hate us from now on, and we won't get our Leigh-fix in time, and...and we will all become zombies!!!
Meh, we'll bite them...
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