Feb 16 2009 12:55pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Great Hunt, Part 4

Hi-ho, Leigh de Recapper here. It’s Part 4 of your Great Hunt Re-read Show!

Today’s guests are Chapters 18-23; previous episodes can be found in our media archive.

In accordance with FCC regulations, all posts are labeled SP-11, with a little box around it, probably blocking a couple of characters’ faces at the most annoying moment possible. They would never have pulled this crap on us in the seventies. Not even when Alice Cooper guest-starred.

Ahem. Why don’t we get things started? It’s time to get things started!

Chapter 18: To the White Tower

What Happens
Egwene watches from the deck as the fleet of ships carrying them to Tar Valon race down the Erinin, driven by the saidar-created wind, then goes below to see Nynaeve, who is busy being seasick. She tells Nynaeve that she is worried about Rand; she’s had more dreams. Nynaeve asks if she knows what the danger is, but Egwene can’t say, and Anaiya is being no help. She tells Nynaeve that she’s seen the masked man with eyes of fire three more times, and that he had laughed at her. They are interrupted by a knock, and Siuan comes in, alone, to their surprise. She says she will be giving them their lesson today. Nynaeve tries to leave, and Siuan snaps at her to sit. She says she’d heard that Nynaeve had a temper “like a fisher-bird with a bone in its throat”, and she suspects that if Nynaeve is raised straight to Accepted at the Tower it will be no more than she deserves. Nynaeve growls that she’d rather learn to use a sword, or something useful; Siuan replies that she never thought swords were much use, especially if you can do this: and she wraps Nynaeve and Egwene in flows of Air so that neither of them can move. Enraged, Nynaeve demands to be released, and instead Siuan picks her up so that she is hanging in midair, immobile. Siuan is about to demonstrate how saidar can be useful in giving someone a spanking when she suddenly flies backwards and slams against the cabin wall, and is held there. Siuan is impressed. Nynaeve tells her to let her go right now, or—but then her eyes widen and Siuan sits up, free to move. She says she guesses Nynaeve didn’t know she could be cut off from the Power like that, and asks if now she’s interested in learning. Then she drops Nynaeve on her ass, literally, and goes on with the lesson.

The lesson does not go well for Nynaeve, since Siuan spends most of it trying to make Nynaeve angry so she can channel, and after Siuan leaves she snarls for a while about all the nasty things she’d like to do to the Amyrlin, before a change in the motion of the ship alerts them that they’ve arrived. They go above deck, and see Tar Valon for the first time; it is gorgeous. After the ship docks, Siuan and all the other Aes Sedai disembark and leave without so much as glancing at Nynaeve and Egwene, so they leave the ship by themselves. They gawk at the city for a moment until they are joined by a sister with very strange features to Egwene’s eyes; pale green, tilted eyes and flame-red hair. She introduces herself as Sheriam, Mistress of Novices, and Nynaeve immediately tells her that she is not to be a novice, but one of the Accepted. Amused, Sheriam informs her that she has authority over the Accepted too, and welcomes Egwene, saying she will make forty novices in the Tower. She warns Egwene that the work is hard, for if she is to break under strain, it’s better that they find out now than after she becomes a full Aes Sedai. Worried, Nynaeve asks if it really has to be that hard for Egwene, and Sheriam smiles and says not to worry; the worst is reserved for the first few weeks of being Accepted. Nynaeve’s mouth drops open, and Sheriam puts an arm around them both and says she will see them to the Tower.

Heh, poor Nynaeve. She is just not having fun in this section of the book. I remember being really annoyed with her here the first time, but now I just find it all kind of amusing.

The thing about Nynaeve is, whether you think she’s awesome or she’s horrible, she’s a great character because she’s got character, if you see what I’m saying. She is many things, but “bland” is most certainly not one of them; what’s more, she influences other characters to be less bland, simply by forcing them to react to her. I contend that even readers who absolutely loathe Nynaeve would have support my opinion on this, whether they want to or not; if I was wrong, they wouldn’t have such a strong reaction to her in the first place. Because you can love her or you can hate her, but one thing you can’t do is ignore her.

Chapter 19: Beneath the Dagger

What Happens
Rand’s group is still camped out by the mountains, even though Rand thinks they should long since have left, because every time he suggests they go, Selene sweet-talks him into staying one more day. One night Rand catches Selene messing with his baggage; he is suspicious at first, but then she tells him she wants to clean her dress, and was looking for one of his shirts to wear while she did it. He gives her one, and she starts to undress right in front of him. He turns his back hastily; he turns back after she says she’s done, sees her in just his shirt, and forgets how to talk for a bit. Selene continues to tell him about the glory that will be his once he finds the Horn, until they are interrupted by Hurin, who starts to tell them something, but then sees Selene in the shirt and stops dead. Rand asks him what’s going on rather harshly, and Hurin tells him about a fire he saw in the distance. Rand surmises it is Fain, and proposes following them until Ingtar’s group catches up. Selene says how can he even be sure they have the Horn, unless he goes to check? She tells him he should take the alantin (Loial) and go spy on the camp and maybe take the Horn if he sees the opportunity. Rand hesitates, and agrees.

Rand and Loial head to where Hurin saw the fire, and Rand asks what’s this alantin Selene keeps calling Loial. Loial tells him it’s Old Tongue for “brother”, short for tia avende alantin, “Brother to the Trees”. They dismount and sneak through the woods to the campsite, Rand assuming the void and trying to ignore saidin beckoning to him. Rand sees the chest with the Horn and the dagger on top of it, and to Loial’s shock creeps into the camp itself toward it. He reaches toward the chest, touches the dagger, jerks away and almost loses the void; the figure sleeping nearby thrashes in its sleep until Rand calms down. Steeling himself, he grabs the dagger and quickly thrusts it through his belt, trying to minimize skin contact with it. Then he grabs Loial, who has followed him into the camp, and gets him to pick up the chest. They sneak out of the camp, but don’t get very far when the figure Rand noted earlier jerks awake, screaming to the Trollocs that “it’s” gone, and to find al’Thor. The camp erupts in a frenzy, and Rand and Loial run. Trollocs come at them in the wood, and Rand, trying desperately to avoid seizing saidin, dances the sword forms and kills them one after another. He lets the void go in a daze, and mutters that he thinks he is going mad; Loial asks, if so, can’t it wait until they are away from here? They get their horses and run back to their camp. Selene is delighted that they got the Horn, and asks to see it. Rand tells her he doesn’t know how to open the chest, but she runs her fingers over it and opens it. She reaches for the Horn, but Rand beats her to it, and says he’s taking it back to Agelmar in Fal Dara. Selene says that’s crazy; she points out that to go back to Fal Dara will mean trying to pass the Darkfriends, and it would be much safer to continue on to Cairhien. Rand considers this, then agrees. He pulls out the dagger, and Selene tells him to get rid of it, it is too dangerous. Rand says he can’t, his friend needs it; he puts it in the chest with the Horn, and says that ought to protect them from its influence. Sourly, Selene agrees that it probably will, and they make preparations to head out.

Fain kills the Trolloc who brought him the news that Rand had escaped, and thinks that enough of the Dark One’s “gift” is left to him to know that al’Thor was in the mountains somewhere. He screams that he will be a dog no longer, and that al’Thor will pay for this.

Lanfear: Girl is pulling out all the stops, eh? Right down to the old “oh darn I spilled something let-me-take-this-off” trick. I know Lanfear’s evil and all, but I must give her props on her seduction-fu. Too bad for her that fornication is apparently a nonexistent concept in the Two Rivers.

You know, given that it was Selene who persuaded Rand to go try and steal the horn back, I was convinced the first time reading this that the whole thing was going to go horribly wrong, simply because it was her idea. I was shocked when Loial and Rand actually got away with it.

This is also the chapter in which, I contend, Badass Rand makes his first real appearance. He’s done cool shit before this, of course, but most of it was more or less by accident, and even shooting the grolm was only impressive to non-Two Riversians. But killing eight Trollocs with a sword, in under five minutes and without a scratch to show for it? That’d be impressive to just about anyone.

Chapter 20: Saidin

What Happens
Rand et al travel through the night, and when they stop for a break Selene tries to convince Rand to let her look at the Horn again. He refuses to open the chest, saying it’s better to keep the dagger as shielded as possible. Selene goes for the seduction angle again, and Rand, wondering at her apparent youth, asks her again if she’s Aes Sedai. This pisses her off, and when they ride on she is cold and silent to everyone. By the time they make camp for the night she is being nice to Loial and Hurin again, but is still ignoring Rand except to smile at him when he is not supposed to see in a way that makes him very nervous. They reach a village, and Rand notices something glittering off to the side of the town. He turns toward it, curious, and comes to the edge of a large excavation pit. At the bottom protrudes a giant stone hand holding a crystal sphere twenty paces across, and nearby a stone face of a bearded, wise-looking man. As he looks at the sphere, the void forms without him meaning it to. Selene says this is dangerous and they should leave; absorbed in the glow he sees in the sphere, he barely hears her. Selene seems to become genuinely worried, and begs him to come away, promising not to mention the Horn again, if only he will leave. Rand tries to release the void, but it won’t go.

Light filled him, blinded him.

“Till shade is gone,” he mumbled, “till water is gone . . . ”

Power filled him. He was one with the sphere.

“ . . . into the Shadow with teeth bared . . . ”

The power was his. The Power was his.

“ . . . to spit in Sightblinder’ s eye . . . ”

Power to Break the World.

“ . . . on the last day!” It came out as a shout, and the void was gone.

His horse shies at the shout and almost falls into the pit. Rand pulls his horse away from the edge, and asks the others what happened. They are all staring at him, and Loial replies that he had been standing there mumbling to himself and ignoring everyone else until he suddenly shouted “Day!” Hurin points out that the men in the excavation pit have noticed them, and there could be trouble. Rand says they will leave, an idea which the others greet with relief. They go back to the village and find an inn, and Rand asks Selene if she is all right. She replies tightly that he scared her half to death, and urges him to just ride away with her and the Horn; Rand again tells her the Horn is not his, and she turns her back on him.

I think the appropriate real-world analogy for how Lanfear probably felt in this scene would be walking in on a five-year-old playing with the detonator for a nuclear bomb. Yikes.

I’m puzzled as to why, when Rand’s all bedazzled by the Choedan Kal statue, he’s muttering the Aiel motto. It’s appropriate thematically, of course, considering what he’s eventually going to use the things for, but it’s a little odd otherwise. It’s not like it could be Lews Therin leakage; first of all, Lews Therin was never Aiel, unless I missed a serious memo, and secondly, I don’t believe that Lews Therin shows up in Rand’s head until much later, after Rand’s channeled a lot more icky taint. I suppose it could be the same Manetheren/Old Tongue thing Mat has, except with Rand’s Aiel ancestry, but if so why is this such an isolated incident?


The inn, at the very top of the hill, was stone like every other building in the town, and plainly marked by a painted sign hanging over the wide doors. The Nine Rings. Rand swung down with a smile and tied Red to one of the hitching posts out front. “The Nine Rings” had been one of his favorite adventure stories when he was a boy; he supposed it still was.

Heh. Ours too!

Chapter 21: The Nine Rings

What Happens
There are half a dozen men in the common room of the inn, whom Rand immediately pegs as soldiers, and one man sitting alone who’s clearly an officer. The innkeeper, Maglin, sizes up Rand’s coat (and his heron-mark sword) and Selene’s dress, and greets them as Lord and Lady. She asks if they are Hunters for the Horn, startling Rand, who tells her no, they are definitely not hunting for the Horn. She seats them, seeming startled that Rand allows Hurin to sit with them, and sends food; Selene is sulking, and hardly eats. Later, Maglin mentions to Rand that she noticed the flute case, and wondered if his man would give them a tune. Rand tells her Hurin doesn’t play, he does, and she apologizes and withdraws the request. Nostalgically, Rand tells her he doesn’t mind, and has Hurin pull the flute out. He plays, deliberately choosing folksy, non-lord-like tunes, while Selene watches him “as if wondering what he was”. The soldiers sing along on one tune, and after it is over the officer makes a sharp gesture to them; they rise and bow to the officer and Rand both, and leave.

The officer comes over to Rand and says he hopes the soldiers did not offend with the singing, and introduces himself as Captain Aldrin Caldevwin; Rand invites him to join them. Caldevwin asks for Rand’s name, which he gives, adding that he’s from the Two Rivers in Andor. Caldevwin makes small talk, asking questions designed to test Rand’s claim about being from Andor. Then he asks for Selene’s name, but before she can answer, one of the serving girls shrieks and drops a lamp, almost starting a fire. Maglin scolds her, and she says she’s sorry, but she “had such a twinge in her arm”. Selene announces she is not feeling well, and goes to her room. Rand asks Caldevwin about the excavation with the sphere nearby; warily, the captain answers that it is a statue from the Age of Legends, which Galldrian has ordered excavated for the glory of the throne and House Riatin. He asks if Rand is staying in the area, and Rand tells him they are heading to Cairhien tomorrow. Caldevwin says he is sending men back to the capital himself, and invites himself to travel with them, and leaves. In their room later, Rand asks Hurin and Loial why Caldevwin seemed so suspicious, and they explain to him about Daes Dae’mar:

[Loial:] “The nobles and the noble Houses maneuver for advantage. They do things they think will help them, or hurt an enemy, or both. Usually, it’s all done in secrecy, or if not, they try to make it seem as if they’re doing something other than what they are.”

Rand doesn’t really get it, and Loial and Hurin both say they don’t either, but he can ask Selene about it in the morning. The next day, however, Selene is gone; she left a note sealed with a crescent moon and stars, which says she must leave him for a time, but will wait for him in Cairhien, and that he is always in her thoughts. When they join Caldevwin to ride for Cairhien, he seems upset at the news that Selene is gone; Hurin whispers to Rand that the captain must have had the inn watched last night, and Selene must have slipped out without Caldevwin noticing. Rand thinks to himself that Selene had certainly ruined any chance that Caldevwin wouldn’t think they were up to something, and they head out.

Every party needs a pooper, that’s why we invited Forsaken. Exeunt Selene: good riddance! Now if only she would stay away. Alas, it is not to be. Dangit.

On the whole “lord” thing in general, since in Cairhien is where everyone really starts to care about it: I will fully confess to having a fascination with the trappings of feudalism even while completely acknowledging its fundamental flaws as a system of government. Of course, I suspect I’m hardly alone here on that one. Lords and vassals and kings and queens and swearing fealty and all may be a system riddled with the potential for abuse and the deprivation of basic human freedoms, but with all due respect to democracy, “getting elected Town Councilman” just ain’t got that same wish-fulfillment swing.

(I think Lois McMaster Bujold had the best quote on this in Ceteganda: “Egalitarians adjust to aristocracies just fine—as long as they get to be the aristocrats.” Heh. Indeed.)

Chapter 22: Watchers

What Happens
Moiraine sits in Adeleas and Vandene’s library, doing research. Adeleas and Vandene are Aes Sedai, and true sisters as well, gone into voluntary retreat in a tiny village in Arafel, and Moiraine thinks if she is going to find the information she needs anywhere, it will be here. She asks Lan if he remembers the first time they met, and reminisces about how he threw her in a pond; he is surprised she brought it up, considering that she told him they would never speak of it again. He says he remembers, as well as the retribution she visited on him; the ants in particular. She asks if the bond chafes after all these years, which is a deliberate insult, but he merely replies no. Then she tells him that should anything happen to her, she has made arrangements that his bond will pass to another sister. She will not allow him to die in a useless attempt to avenge her. Lan angrily wants to know who he is to be passed to, like a pet. Moiraine says she does not regard him as a pet, and neither does Myrelle; besides, Myrelle is only to hold his bond until she can pass it to someone who needs him more. Lan is furious, and she asks him again if the bond chafes. Lan asks, is that what this is, then—a test? Moiraine says no, but that at Fal Dara she began to wonder about his commitment to her. She asks why he did what he did with Rand, and notes it was not what Lan expected her to bring up. Lan replies that it seemed right; Rand needed someone on his side. Perhaps he was influenced by Rand being ta’veren. Moiraine sighs, and lets it go. After Lan leaves, she thinks about Nynaeve, and how the young Wisdom was breaking down the Warder’s walls without him even knowing it; already he shared her loyalties to the Emond’s Fielders. Moiraine is surprised to feel a flash of jealousy; she never had before, but she and Lan had fought together for so long, been through so much.

He thought he still stood strong behind his walls, but Nynaeve had laced bridal flowers in his hair. Would he still find himself able to court death so blithely? Moiraine wondered when he would ask her to release him from his bond. And what she would do when he did.

Vandene brings Moiraine tea, and comments on the many things she is studying. Moiraine asks Vandene if there is a link between the Dragon and the Horn of Valere, and Vandene says no, other than that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai’don. Moiraine asks, what about a link between the Dragon and Toman Head? Vandene hesitates, and says she and Adeleas have argued about this:

“There is a verse in the original that translates literally as ‘Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire . . . ’ Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma’vron. I say it should be translated not simply as ‘watchers,’ which is a’vron. Ma’vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A’vron, of course, not Ma’vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea.”

Moiraine hesitates, and then asks about Lanfear. Vandene replies that very little is known about her at all, except that she is linked to the Dragon. She frowns and asks if Moiraine knows something about the Dragon being Reborn already; Moiraine implies that the answer is no without actually saying so. Vandene muses about all the signs about that the Last Days are coming, and says that she and Adeleas have considered coming out of retirement, but perhaps they will have a chance to finish their history of the world since the Breaking first. She leaves, and Moiraine wanders out into the garden, thinking. She hears something behind her and turns, thinking it is Lan, but finds a Draghkar there instead. She tries to embrace saidar, but it is already too late, and she falls under the Draghkar’s trance. It is about to take her when Lan and Jaem, Vandene’s old Warder, attack it and drive it off her. They kill it, and its death shriek brings Adeleas and Vandene running. Adeleas demands to know how it got so close without any of them sensing it, and Moiraine replies it must have been warded. They all know that means Black Ajah. Moiraine asks the sisters to deal with getting rid of the corpse; she must write some letters to Tar Valon before leaving immediately.

Really nice scene here with Moiraine and Lan, revealing more about their relationship than we got in the whole of TEOTW, and, of course, a lot more about the nature of Warder bonds. This conversation, in fact, was what started the whole “can the Warder bond be released” controversy which went on for a million years or thereabouts, and I think was finally resolved in either Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams, I forget which.

Hey, we never do get a POV from Lan, do we? I’m actually okay with that; his character works much better seen strictly from the outside. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, of course, but I think actually being in his head would prove to be kind of a letdown.

Also, a ginormous infodump chapter, which is just my absolute favorite, not. Is it weird that, knowing what’s going to happen to Adeleas, I’m a little bit sad that she never got to finish her history?

Liandrin sent the Draghkar. I’m hoping if I state this firmly enough everyone will just nod and agree. I would also like perfect nails, world peace and a pony.

Chapter 23: The Testing

What Happens
Sheriam brings Nynaeve into the chamber where the Accepted test ter’angreal is kept:

Centered under the dome was a thing made of three rounded, silver arches, each just tall enough to walk under, sitting on a thick silver ring with their ends touching each other. Arches and ring were all of one piece.

Sheriam explains to Nynaeve about ter’angreal; unlike angreal and sa’angreal, they are made to do specific things; there is another in the Tower that she will use when raised to full Aes Sedai, to swear her final vows on it. This ter’angreal, however, will make her face her greatest fears, and Sheriam warns her that there have been women who went in and never came out. Then Sheriam tells her the rules: once she begins, Nynaeve must go through to the end, or she will be put out of the Tower and never allowed back. However, she can refuse to do it now, and she will be written in the novice book with only one mark against her; then she will be allowed to refuse the test two more times before being put out of the Tower. Sheriam adds that it is no great shame if Nynaeve is not ready to face it; Sheriam herself couldn’t do it the first time. Nynaeve considers, and remembers her vow to Moiraine to make her pay, and tells Sheriam she is ready. They begin the test, and Nynaeve takes off her dress, making sure to hide Lan’s ring.

“The first time,” Sheriam said, “is for what was. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.”

Nynaeve steps through the first arch, and finds herself in a maze of twisty passages, all alike. She can’t remember how she came to be here or why she is naked. She begins wandering at random, until a man steps out in front of her, ancient and rotting. He says he is Aginor, and has come for her. She runs, Aginor pursuing, until her fear gives way to anger, and she finds saidar and attacks the Forsaken. Aginor is astounded, and flees from her. Now she pursues him, attacking with lightning and balls of fire. He fights back, but Nynaeve gradually overwhelms him and brings him to bay. Just as she is about to finish him off, she sees a silver arch, and a voice reminds her that the way back will come only once. She hesitates, wanting to kill Aginor, but finally abandons him and runs through the arch, furious. When she emerges, one of the Aes Sedai pours a chalice of water over her head, and Sheriam leads her to the next arch. Nynaeve asks her if it was real; Sheriam replies that no one knows, but to be sure that the danger is very real. Nynaeve comments that she channeled the One Power, and Sheriam is shocked; she should not remember how to do that in there. She warns Nynaeve to try not to do it again, as using the Power inside has killed or burned out other sisters.

“The second time is for what is. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.”

Nynaeve steps through, and finds herself in the Two Rivers. She smiles, but then notices that everything looks neglected and rundown. She enters the inn, and finds a worn-looking Marin al’Vere there. Marin is shocked to see her, and asks if she brought Egwene back. Nynaeve says no, but can’t remember why. Marin tells her Bran is dead, and goes on that Nynaeve must not let Malena know she is here. Malena is the Wisdom now, and she’s got everyone terrified of her. She beat Alsbet Luhhan with a stick, and when Bran and Haral said she had gone too far and would have to leave, they both took sick and died. Marin says she saw gray fennel in the medicine Malena gave them. Horrifed, Nynaeve asks how Marin could see this woman poison Bran and Haral without going to the Circle; Marin says she has four daughters still living, and couldn’t risk it. Nynaeve says something must be done, immediately. They leave the inn to go talk to some of the Circle, and see a tall, scrawny woman coming. Marin says that’s Malena, and they hide behind a house. Nynaeve sees a silver arch, and is torn. Marin begs her to stay, and with a cry Nynaeve tears free and runs to the arch and through. She pleads with Sheriam to say it was not real; Sheriam says the second time is worse, and the third will be the worst of all; that’s what the test is for. You have to want to be Aes Sedai more than anything else.

“The third time,” Sheriam intoned formally, “is for what will be. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.”

Nynaeve runs through a beautiful meadow, laughing; below her is the kingdom of Malkier, restored and lovely. al’Lan Mandragoran, King of Malkier, joins her on the hilltop and kisses her ardently. She pushes him away, saying no, not this. Puzzled, Lan asks her what’s wrong; she says she cannot marry him, and he laughs, saying their three children might be upset at the notion that their parents are suddenly not married anymore. She says she must go back, and Lan assumes she means the Two Rivers, and says he will write to Queen Morgase and arrange for an escort; the Queen of Malkier should not go without one. Nynaeve is amazed, but tells herself again not to be pulled into it. She sees the silver arch, and starts to head toward it, but Lan grabs her hand, asking her to stay. She feels memories forming of their life together, and weakens, wanting it so badly to be real, and then sees that the arch has disappeared. She thinks she could stay here with Lan, but then remembers everything that’s happening back in the real world, and thinks she cannot abandon them. She embraces saidar and channels, trying to ignore Lan’s pleas with her to stay, to tell him what’s wrong. She forces the arch to reappear, and as Lan tells her he loves her, runs through it, sobbing. When she emerges, crying, she tells Sheriam that she hates all Aes Sedai, and Sheriam says that’s usually what everyone says when they come out. The Amyrlin Seat is there, and pours the last chalice of water over Nynaeve’s head, and tells her she is Accepted, and sealed to the Tower.

Part of the fun of fantasy (and science fiction) is the way plot devices can be literally “devices” without (necessarily) breaking the reader’s suspension of disbelief. The Accepted ter’angreal test is a great example of this, and very well done, both here and when Egwene goes through it later.

(If you want a science fiction example, I’ve got two words for you: Holodeck malfunction.)

It’s odd, in my opinion, that Aginor is the Forsaken Nynaeve confronts in the “what was” part of the test. I would have thought, given what happened at the Eye, that Balthamel would have been the logical one to appear, seeing as he was the one who manhandled her; Aginor  didn’t actually do a thing to her directly. But then again, Aginor was the one who smacked Lan around, so maybe that’s why.

There’s been some differing of opinion on Nynaeve’s third test, and whether it was a true picture of the future. Some people think it was, because the “Sharina Sedai” mentioned there actually turns up later, as a novice in the Rebel camp, and Nynaeve at least seems convinced they are the same person. On the other hand, if Nynaeve ends up Queen of Malkier after all this is over, ain’t no way Morgase is going to be on the throne of Andor when it happens, as she is in the test.

Personally, I think it’s the same deal, to a slightly lesser degree, as with Egwene’s third test later, where she’s Amyrlin Seat: some of it is true, some of it is false, and some of it is true but distorted by the testee’s own preconceptions and knowledge at the time.

(And, maybe, some of it is because Jordan may not yet have decided/realized that Morgase was going to have a not-so-grand adventure and end up abdicating in favor of Elayne.)

And that’s our show! Tune in again on Wednesday to catch Part 5, Chapters 24-30. Bork bork bork!

1. Dalamon

Love the reread!! I can't wait for the next! ...

More comments to come.
2. OldMan44
Just checking, for a second didn't show in the index and had me worried. Glad to see I read the correct number of chapters. Am now beginning to read Chapter 23. Wow am ahead of the game for once.
Richard Fife
3. R.Fife
C18: Nynaeve: Yes, but she also becomes a bit of a one-trick pony throughout the series. If she isn't getting her way because she's a stubborn mule, she is eating crow over it. And that is about it. A strong personality, I agree, but the depth is only ever so hinted at that it can be drowned out by the repetative braid-tugging.

C21: But, as was brought up in the selene =/= lanfear theory, why did she pass up the great chance to seduce Rand? Not like her illusion is so radical as to not hold up, at least under the inspection of a horomone driven teenager. My thought is actually this: aside from my still argument that she is using super mild (Moiraine token level) compulsion on him, I think she also doesn't want him to sleep with "another woman." After all, the guise of selene is not Lanfear, and maybe she just isn't into roleplay. Guess no wonderwoman lasso tieups for Rand....

C22: Any how exactly does snobby, pouty, kinda lower-ranking BA bitch have the authority to send one of the "rarer" resources of the shadow around. Also, how did anyone have the slightest clue as to where to find Moiraine. Odd as it is, but thinking on that, and that a channeler had to send it since it was warded, I am almost prone to think it was Vandene (who I am semi-secretly of the opinion is BA). In concession, Leigh, how about a a Nightmare on Elm Street gloves, a mule and Mutually Assured Destruction?

C23: I am of the opinion that the Accepted Test only pulls the worst and most hideous nightmares out of the person's head and makes them live it, as opposed to the Wise One test that shows "possible but important futures." The Accepted test may pull bits of information to make things "seem" real for the testee, but just like a dream about flying ice cream pizza doesn't mean you had a flying ice cream pizza during the day, it is like the mind trying to cope with and represent what it is processing and half-failing at it.
4. gentleman_bastard
Some explain the 'Nine Rings' to me please? I don't get it!

Great re-read by the way Miss Butler!
Richard Fife
5. R.Fife
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

Get it now? It's an easter egg hats off to Tolkien
Richard Boye
6. sarcastro
Hooray! First not so much.

Leigh, I'd be much more active in these discussion if you could just contain the re-read to days where my office is closed.

Chapter 18 - one of my favorite chapters. Not only is Nynaeve full of Nynaeve-y goodness here, but we see Siuan do some really odd things with the OP, that is the icy-blue sword made of compressed Air. That is something NO ONE EVER DOES AGAIN. Is that another example of RJ's early conceptions of his magic system that doesn't go anywhere? I think so.

I love how Siuan tries to hold Nynaeve against the wall, and Nynaeve, Mistress du Overkill, sees what she did, copies and SLAMS Siuan against the wall. hee hee.

Moving right along.... dee ta dee, dee ta dee.....

Chapter 21 - Ah, Chapter 21, our first foray into the inscrutable, rather excessively plotsome Cairhienin. I do love the whole idea of an entire nation of suave, scheming sophisticates, all arched brows over poisoned tea, letters written in cipher, daggers under pillows, with agents and spies everywhere - Like an English Drawing Room Mystery, only on a kingdom-wide scale.

But they seem rather inane, honestly. What are they scheming about? And why does no one really ever succeed in driving another house into oblivion, etc...

I do love their names, though, and their stark, restricted fashion sense.

(I think it was actually in The Vor Game, anyway - Cordelia is fine with the adjustment, basically, because of where she ended up in Barrayaran society)

Moving right along, .... foot loose and fancy free...

Chapter 22 - Whee, another spectacular chapter. I loved Adeleas and Vandene; I loved the idea of them too (sisters who are Sisters. Hah! I kill me). I remember being very pleased when they came out of retirement to join the rebels, Elaida. Like these two, who are so cool and world-wise, would ever return to the TOWER...

Plus I loved all the subtle mystery of the bond-passing. This I think is the first reference to Myrelle, who we later see has something of a reputation as a resuscitator of warders whose sisters are dead. Of course, as awesome as that would make her seem, it also seems that she does it by shagging them. Oh well.

The first appearance of a Draghkar up close and personal, too. WTG to Jaim!

And I feel sad about Adeleas too.

Moving right along... I am ready for the big time, is it ready for me....

Chapter 23 - Nynaeve's testing. Well, this is all appropriately angsty and taut and tension-filled. I do love the part about Nynaeve and how Visions 1 & 2 basically show her having to abandon what she thought she was and what she thought she wanted to fulfill her potential as an Aes Sedai. As plot ideas go, the Acceptatron was one of RJ's finest. It does a really nice job putting on display a subject's inner conflict and making her literally have to choose.

HOWEVER, I have no idea what the hell was going on with Nynaeve's thorns through palms. The tangible physical injury lasting outside the device leads me (and has led others as well) to believe that the Acceptatron is somehow using the free-floating, stream of consciousness, ideas taken form abilities of T'A'R, only it specifically guides the visions based upon a certain set of narrow parameters (show her her ideal husband... then mess with it. Show her her loved ones, and then make her screw them over).

Additionally, my theory has always been because it deals with T'A'R, it may contain a hint of prophecy (which I will expound on later when get to Egwene's test), scrambled with the subjects personal knowledge, hopes and expectations - that might explain the Morgase thing. That, and Morgase's Post-Abdication (Not-So) Grand Adventures hadn't occurred to RJ yet.

The whole Rite of Acceptance has a nice, primal tone to it, what with the washed clean and rebirth thing. It is a nice touch that the Amyrlin herself presides over them all. They don't call her 'Mother' for nothing.

Oh, and 'Two Riversians'? Puh-lease.

Everyone knows that the adjectival form of Two Rivers is Duopotamian.
Kyle Bass
7. SherlockTomes

True, I don't think we ever see a sword made from the Power again, but in TDR, Nynaeve makes a crowbar from the power to try to break the lock on the storeroom where the Supergirls then find some staged Black Ajah-to-Tear evidence.

As far as Rand impressing peoples with his badassness, the wolves were sufficiently impressed with his performance!
Agnes Kormendi
8. tapsi
Don't we get Lan's POV at some point in New Spring?
9. Dr Hoo
Thanks for doing these Leigh. I have been out of sync with my reading / the reviews due to travel, but have been very much enjoying them and the comments. I thought I would post after thinking last night about how nice it is to be at least peripherally involved in this sort of discussion. I just finished reading Mark Barrowcliffe's "The Elfish Gene" (reviewed here on in between tEotW and tGH, and his book about growing up interested in strange things and needing to belong to groups with similar interests resonated with the feeling I am getting doing this re-read with everyone. I haven't felt this connected since quitting Eve Online a few years back, and it's fun to be involved. Keep up the good work!
10. Lsana
These next few sections are some of the more interesting ones to discuss...

Ch. 22: I'll put in at least one vote for "Liandrin sent the Draghkar." Liandrin by herself wouldn't have the authority to get one, but if Liandrin were acting on orders from Ishy that she received at the social, Ishy could arrange for one to be available to her. Ishy's job would certainly be easier if Moiraine weren't there to help Rand. As for how Liandrin knew where to find Moiraine, she followed her of course. Moiraine and Liandrin both disappeared from the Amyrlin's party at the same time. It isn't so much that no one else could possibly have sent the draghkar, but there is evidence in favor of Liandrin and none in favor of anyone else.

Moiraine and Lan's discussion brings up some interesting things as well. The hints we get about their initial meeting had me eager when I heard about New Spring, and I was kind of disappointed when it turned out that Moiraine was just a girl throwing a temper tantrum. On the question of why Lan acted as he did towards Rand, I'm inclined to go with his explanation, ta'veren, rather than hers, that he's sharing Nynaeve's loyalties. Nynaeve wants to see Rand back in the Two Rivers. What Lan is doing is pushing him more and more towards his destiny and away from what Nynaeve wants. The fact that Moiraine blames Nynaeve here, I think, says more about Moiraine than Lan. She is jealous, whether she wants to admit it or not.

Ch 23: There was one thing in this chapter that bugged me, Sheriam's comment about channeling in the ter'angrael. She certainly implied that 100% of people who had channeled in the ter'angrael were stilled, and also that 100% of people who went in unshielded couldn't remember that they could channel. If that's the case, it certainly is odd that not only does Nynaeve remember and channel in 2/3 of her tests, but so does Egwene. I'm not sure if this is one of those things from TGH that Jordan just forgot about or if it is supposed to signify something more important.
11. Mark-S
Heh, I never pictured Sheriam as Saldean until now. Odd. Also wasn't there a Saldean at the DFS? It makes me wonder since we are already meeting some of those folks already.

And I can't help you with world peace and a pony, but hopefully in a few few months we'll be hearing about Tarmon Gai'don and Bela. I believe eating jello will help the nails.
12. Lsana

Guys, we see swords made from the power quite a bit: the sword that Rand uses after he loses Tam's. No one else uses them, because as Suian points out anyone who can make a sword with the power has other, better options. Rand's reasons for creating the sword are largely psychological. But it's not like anyone has forgotten that that can be done.
13. Zeynep
OK, help. Halp, even. Something about Chp. 22 has bothered me for years now, and I remember it every time I reread, then I forget to think about it. But since we're all here...

The point in question happens a little after Moiraine's finished talking to Vandene. She is walking out in the garden, and she is distracted, because something Vandene said sticks in her mind:

"There was something in what Vandene had said that tugged at her mind, but she could not remember what it was. An answer, or a hint to an answer, to a question she had not asked---but she could not bring the question to mind, either."

What? Every time I hit that I go and reread the conversation, and every time I draw a blank. It has to be something very obvious, from the way I keep missing it. What?

(Quote courtesy of Google Books.)
14. markp
I agree that the ter'angreal uses the dream world. and it shows people their fears and desires (or what ever is on their minds).
I think Sheriams comments just show how little is understood about how it actually works and the Aes Sedai learned about it through trial and error.
Nynaeve dose at leased two things that weren't supposed to be possible, channelling safely (which could have just been dreaming of channelling), and opening a new door once it had vanished in the third journey, after imagining the thorns into existence.
It sounds almost the same as T'A'R in later books especially the scenes with fights against Forsaken.
15. sarcastro
LSana@12 -

Ah, that's a good point. What is the point of making a sword of Air when you can just fling a lightning bolt at someone, or make a whipcord of Air diamond sharp and slice someone open from afar.

It's just that just is a very showy manifestation of the OP, I guess.

MarkS@11 - Sheriam is a Saldaean, but she appears to be someone sort of ethnic minority there. She is referred to as having flaming hair and bright green eyes, which is 'not uncommon' in Saldaea, but we never see another Saldaean with coloring like her (correction, one of Lady Deira's ladies-in-waiting ultimately shows up with red hair, but that like two out of hundreds of Saldaeans we meet).

The red-haired Saldaeans are like the elusive flaxen-haired Tairens (ahem, Cabriana Mercandes...Cairhienin my ass, with a name and coloring like that). They exist but are very rarely seen.
Evan Langlinais
16. Skwid
Regarding Lan's POV, as I think someone mentioned above, we get a Young Lan POV in New Spring.

Regarding the Aiel motto, it isn't even necessarily leakage at all. It's what Loial said to him when he first met, so it could just be his normal subconscious reaching for something to shock himself out of a dangerous situation, and contemplating his parentage is obviously disturbing and potentially shocking. As mottoes go, though it's also pretty bracing, and maybe he just needed that. It's not like he's got a lot of other go-to mottoes, you know?
17. Lsana

Maybe. But from what Sheriam said, it sounded like they did quite a few experiments on this particular ter'angrael (one would hope if they were going to be tossing novices into it that they would do everything possible to understand it). They believe that channeling in the ter'angrael results in stilling, but they are so confident that you can't remember that you can channel inside, that they don't even bother to issue a warning. To make that policy, they would have to be either 100% confident that no one would remember how to channel inside, or criminally stupid (which I don't necessarily discount).
Richard Fife
18. R.Fife
Perhaps, also, up to this point, a novice being raised to accepted, or even the testing Aes Sedai, did not have fears that required channeling to overcome. The ceremony the Aes Sedai made around the "Aceptatron" (I like that), speak very heavily of leaving your old, non Aes Sedai life behind. But, for Nynaeve, the OP itself is a terrifying thing, so she needs to face it as a fear, and for Egwene... iunno... she's a dreamer and the Aceptatron was already kinda f'd up. er, wait, perhaps she had gone so "whole hog" into wanting to be an Aes Sedai that her "future" had no choice but to make her Aes Sedai.
Richard Boye
19. sarcastro
R.Fife@18 - the whole thing about Egwene's Acceptatron experience was that that the actual device was acting oddly due to the presence of the twisted stone T'A'R ring that she given by Verin just before. One of the sisters present (Alanna?) remarks about some weird buzzing resistance.

However, I think that Sheriam's pronouncement is either a) Sheriam being incorrect and talking out of her ass (she tends to do that at these events - c.f. her telling Egwene about how to be turned, but not to worry about it) or b) something RJ didn't really think through. To have it happen once with Nynaeve is supposed to draw our attention to the unprecedented momentous awesomeness of Nynaeve and her Destiny, but then to have Egwene repeat the same thing (channeling inside the Acceptatron) leads me to believe that he forgot about the, ahem, proscription on channeling while in there.
20. MoreBooksForMe
Sarcastro- love the Acceptatron comment, very funny.

Someone plese remind me what happes to Adeleas. is she one of the AS killed in the room with the bowl of the winds and the golham(sp?) or something completely different?
Richard Fife
21. R.Fife
Adeleas is found stabbed dead on the way to Caemlyn after they Travelled away from Ebou Dar and the whole "tear the weave apart" thing.
22. markp
Yes they probably should know it inside out before pushing novices in to it. I wonder when/why they started this ceremony.
Sheriam dose make a point about them not asking Accepted what they saw so maybe on the odd occasion some one channels in side they don't say so.

But it is one of the many a good ideas by Robert Jordan in the book.
Kyle Bass
23. SherlockTomes

Yeah, my fingers typed that on their own. In my head, I was thinking strictly of making one from air, and wasn't really thinking of Rand at the time.

Speaking of better options, Egwene even demonstrates this to Nynaeve when she attempts to use that crowbar, by using her newfound Earth skillz to weaken the lock.
24. Rikka
In accordance with FCC regulations, all posts are labeled SP-11, with a little box around it, probably blocking a couple of characters’ faces at the most annoying moment possible. They would never have pulled this crap on us in the seventies. Not even when Alice Cooper guest-starred.

lmfao XD

chpt 19:
I agree with the whole Nynaeve is a great character. Maybe sometimes I want to strangle her and maybe sometimes I want to hit Lan and say" no you idiot, she's batshit crazy" but she has the least bland personality of the main characters. Except maybe Mat, but I'm blatantly biased when it comes to him >.>

chpt 20:
I'm not sure I'd be able to resist Lanfear and her womanly wiles and I'm the picture of self-control. :D I also was convinced everything Selene suggested/touched/thought was going to go horribly wrong for Rand and Co. I kept expecting him to have to kill her or be saved by Moiraine or something. Any woman who does those creepy smiles at you because you didn't give her what she wanted ( i.e. opening the chest) has a sick sense of revenge and it's coming for you. My best advice in said situations is to run and run hard. She was/is soooooo bad news all over, yuck.

Regarding the Aiel mantra thingummy, it's probably just thrown in to foreshadow the whole 'OMG Rand's actually Aiel!' thing. It also probably stuck with him well from when Loial first mentioned it as he's got all these concerns, perhaps buried subconsciously atm, about his parentage. We know that he's heard Tam's raving in a fever about finding a child and that everyone who sees Rand thinks he looks like an Aielman, whether they're Andoran royal children, a young Ogier or soldiers from the Borderlands. If he's worried that he might not be his mother's child, he's got to have some sort of subconscious wonder that maybe he could be part Aiel. So many other people seem to think so and Moiraine was asking about the boys birthplaces early in the story. I know he's dense but it's something that obviously has bothered (and will bother) him. It could be such an isolated incident exactly because it is such an isolated incident. It's not every day you run into the key to the largest source of power in da whol wyde wurld. I'd be understanding of him going a little @_@ around it.

chpt 21:
Why's Selene/Lanfear all in a tizzy over being asked her name? I assume it's simply because her claim to being a noble Cairhienin couldn't stand up to Caldevwin's interrogation techniques? So she makes a girl drop a lamp? Seems a bit desperate and lacking in subtlety for her standards. Lame. I call shenangins.

Also, LMB is spectacular but I've not read, nor heard of, Ceteganda o_O

chpt 22:
This section from Moiraine's PoV drove me insane. The woman never stops weaving webs. rawrgh. Poor Lan, poor Nynaeve, poor Moiraine. I'm fine with Liandrin sending the Draghkar unless someone else comes up with something better.

chpt 23:
Do tall girls going for Accepted have to duck? Nynaeve is shorter than me by a good bit. >.> Also. I LOVE this scene. LOVE it. I wish we got to see everyone else's (Elayne's really, is what I mean by that). I do think that Nynaeve says too much as she comes out of the arches but ah well. The third arch is mad killer.
Agnes Kormendi
25. tapsi
We know from New Spring that Accepted are actually REQUIRED to channel during the test... But from that description it seems obvious that they use the ter'angreal quite differently then.
26. AnnOnimous
Pretty much just lurking along for the most part until I restart my reread with the next book (hopefully I can find it before then) but I had to make a note that I did have a good laugh at "Duopotamian"... that's great.

Great reread, don't worry about being too wordy, I don't mind a bit. (And neither do too many other people, obviously.)

Yeah, it took me a while to notice the Nine Rings reference, but it's great, ain't it?
27. Rikka
also, if anyone can help out 13's comment, I've wondered the same thing and if I were reading along instead of just reading other people's rereads, I'd've brought it up as well.
Richard Fife
28. R.Fife
Re: 13 and 27. Just looked over Vandene's convo with Moiraine. I think the tickled answer was Mordeth. Vandene mentions how Mordeth is looking to steal a soul, and I don't think Moiraine fully thinks Mordeth actually "succeeded" in stealing Fain's soul. I doubt she would have let Mordeth "rot in a dungeon" had she known. Perhaps? That seems like the only thing, unless she is ruminating on "over the watchers" meaning to literally mean "In the sky." But she had asked about Toman Head, she had not asked about Mordeth, and it was a "question unasked." Any other ideas? My rambling did not completely convince myself.
29. UncrownedKing
Question to all:

Why is Mat so hated among what seems like a large part of this re-read community??

I find Mat to be one of the most, if not the most, intriguing characters in all of WOT series. Now I can understand the problems with him early, but knowing how freakin awesome he gets in the next books, can't we just cut Mat a break??

I mean common, the Band of the Red Hand? All his war flashbacks and knowledge? His incredible ability to win large sums of money while gambling due to his trip to Tar Valon later on?

What can I say, I'm biased I like Mat's character a lot.

Lovin the RE-READ!!
30. laframboise
About #13 - I've wondered if what Moraine was referring to at that point was the knowledge of balefire, which she used in the next book to good effect.
31. AnnOnimous

I think it's that dagger he's been carrying around. ;) I don't dislike him exactly, but it does take a little while for his coolness to kick in IMO.
32. OldMan44
Something puzzles me after rereading Ch 23 this morning:

Reread NS last month prior to starting my reread of the WoT to follow along with Leigh’s thread. Why is Nynaeve’s testing so different than Moiraine’s was 18 years before? Example: Moiraine = 100 weaves, enters ter’angreal once (though goes thru 100 portals (?) for each weave done) and uses OP freely. Whereas Nynaeve = not charged to do any weaves (she only knows the ones that she has seen to this point in the story and can only use them if she is angry anyway), enters the ter’angreal 3 times and is not supposed to use the OP at all. Has the “testing” changed that much since Moiraine’s time at the Tower? Can anyone explain?
Richard Fife
33. R.Fife
Oldman44@32 The NS test was not for Novice to Accepted, it was for Accepted to Aes Sedai. Moiraine was already an accepted at the start of NS.
Agnes Kormendi
34. tapsi

Nynaeve took the test novices take to become Accepted.

Moiraine took the test Accepted take to become Aes Sedai.
Richard Boye
35. sarcastro

That's the Accepted graduation test. There are two tests.

The test a novice (or Nynaeve, I guess) takes is that three-ringed arch - where she faces what she was/is/will be (or something) and is presented with scenarios that require her to choose. The successful test-taker (I am looking at you, Ellid) appears and is washed cleaned and "ACCEPTED" as an initiate. Hence, she is Accepted and is given a degree of respect and autonomy well above a novice. But she is not done there.

The second one we see in NS is the Accepted's Graduation Test (sort of like the Bar exam for Aes Sedai, I guess, only with more personal childhood trauma and personal phobias on display). It's this floating oval ring that the Accepted goes into and then a circle of Aes Sedai proceed to screw with her by tormenting her with personal failings, childhood traumas, mazes, locust swarms, mobs of drooling lechers etc..., trying to break her concentration while she completes a series of 100 difficult weaves.

And it goes without saying the Accepted must be naked at the time. The Aes Sedai do everything important while naked.
36. UnCrownedKing

" The Aes Sedai do everything important while naked. "

Richard Boye
37. sarcastro
MoreBooks@20 -

No, Adeleas is found stabbed to death after being drugged by some very sweet tea laced with a sedative (or something). The episode in Ebou Dar was an example of Elayne barging into dangerous situations which result in getting her companions killed (just because it worked in Tanchico, Elayne, doesn't mean you should always do that). The casualties in Ebou Dar were a bunch of second stringer Kinswomen who were crushed by the Gollem (sp?) (including Melore, a Domani with what Mat thought was a nice me, it's all coming back.... curse you Leigh!)

Incidentally, Elayne later repeats this episode when she confronts the Black sisters who killed Adeleas, getting, well, another bunch of second stringers killed.

I cannot take credit for the Acceptatron, though. I picked that up on rasfwrj back in the day.

However, AnnOminous, I will take credit for Duopotamian.
38. Pratfall
Not sure if this was brought up, but the last test proves that Tam and Morgase hook up and become rulers in the Two Rivers.
Tim Kington
39. TimKington
Darkfriends and Trollocs lay to left and right of him, but once he had seen Tam stalk close enough to a deer to put his hand on its flank before the animal bounded off; he had tried to learn from Tam. Madness! The thought flew by dimly, almost out of reach. This is madness! You—are—going—mad! Dim thoughts; someone else's thoughts.
Is this LTT?

"And will you find your answers where you are going?" Vandene asked.

"I may already have found one I did not know I sought. I only hope I am not too late. I will need pen and parchment." She drew Vandene toward the house, leaving Adeleas to deal with the Draghkar.
I agree that she figured out Fain is Mordeth. Who is she writing to?
40. Lsana
UnCrowned King,

It isn't Mat that people dislike per se, but the Mat that appears in these first couple of books. He comes across as kind of a whiny jerk. When people say that "Mat" is their favorite character, they usually mean that Mat who beat Gawyn and Galad senseless, who rescued the supergirls from the Stone of Tear, who won the loyalty of the Band of the Red Hand, etc. rather than the one who wandered away from Moiraine, stole the dagger, abandoned Rand as soon as he learned Rand could channel, and all that.

In these first couple of books, Mat is annoying, but I don't think that's a bad thing. What makes Mat an awesome character is that I think he is the one who grows the most, and in order to do that, he had to start low.
Richard Boye
41. sarcastro
re: Why Mat Gets No Love

I for one always thought that Mat gets to do some great derring-do, swashbuckling type exploits - the capering along the rooftops of Tear, the whole blowing the hole (see what I did there?) in the side of the Stone, swinging down on a rope to rescue Aludra, plus he has some fun character attributes to read about ultimately - the Installed Memories, the "Luck," the fact that he'll hit on anything, his invention of the Band, the whole Great Escape from Ebou Dar, which seems kinda like an extended plot from a WWII themed Mel Brooks movie....

However, he starts out in the early books as whiny, sneaky, immature, feckless and dishonest. I would suspect that many readers' impressions of him were made when he was still all snivel-ly and bitchy due to the Shadar Logoth dagger. That might not be fair to the character, but first impression often stick.

Additionally, IMHO, I think he still is a callow swaggering pr*ck, and while he has fun adventures (not counting Tylin), I never really liked the character.

In any event, I still think that he and not Rand had the most sexual chemistry with Elayne. They are like the Nick and Nora Charles of the piece (or the David and Maddie, if you will).
42. Renegade248
I have a few comments.

Ch. 18. As I said in my previous post from Part 3 of this re-read, this is one of my favorite scenes. It is so amusing to see Siuan, The Amyrlin Seat, being thrown against the wall by Nyneave. I must say on my first read that I didn't really like Nyneave up until this point. After this, she was one of my favorite characters, even tho she is still a bit annoying with all the braid tugging scenes. She does get better though as the series progresses.

Ch. 20 and 21. All can say is The Nine Rings. Great homage to Tolkien. I also like all the sneaking, and backstabbing of Daes Dae'mar. I tend to like all the political intrigue type stuff in this series in Carhien and Tear, and also all the intrigue in the White Tower too. We get to see a lot more of this in future books, and I think is one of Jordan's fascinating plot devices.

Ch. 22. I love most infodump chapters, and this one chapter is so nice to see some of the backstory of the Moiraine/Lan relationship. I also think Moiraine is jealous of Nyneave at this point in coming between her and Lan. For Moiraine to pass Lan's bond to Myrelle with the understanding that Myrelle is to pass it on to another sister I found very intriguing. I wonder if Myrelle would of eventually passed it to Nyneave without Egwene letting Lan go to Nyneave when she discovers that he is back with the rebels later in the series.

Ch 23. Another awesome Nyneave chapter with the testing for accepted. Remember, what is told to Nyneave in that no one should be able to channel while in the tar'angreal and that is is dangerous is what the aes sadai believe, not actually the truth. I believe this is the way Jordan was trying to tell the reader that not everything the aes sadai believe is actually the truth as again later we see Egwene channel also.

Great re-read Leigh and keep up the good work. Enjoying this so much and also all the comments.
43. PieterT
Is chapter 23 the one, where RJ starts his thing with naked woman? I remember a lot of nakedness afterwards: Wise woman in sweat tents, the topless Atha'an Miere on their ships, the Seanchan slaves in the see through dresses and my personal favourite the topless raising of the Amyrlin seat!
44. Nuggette
I never caught the 9 ring reference, must be gettin slow. And Mat becomes my favorite and Perrin chapters I skip, all of his moaning and sadness, but I'll wait to we get to those....

Great re-read!!!!!
45. Boquaz
Matt starts low and ends high, as Lsana said.


I just finished re-reading LOC, and the early positions of Matt and Perrin are reversed by that point.

Rand asks both Perrin and Matt to do some favors for him (including asking both to lead the army into Illidan). Matt does everything he can to help. Perrin refuses (he may have had reasons, but so did Matt).

It's really at that point that Perrin starts picking up the mantle of "annoying male lead" for me.
46. Renegade248

I agree with Perrin being lonely and sad, but he doesn't really get annoying until after TSW. I think he is awesome up until you start reading his POV after the battle of the two rivers.

I really like Mat too, but not at this point in the story. He starts coming into his own in TDR after the aes sadai heal him of the dagger. At this point in the story, he is still not one of my favorites with all the whining and negativity. Once he is healed, he is just awesome.
Abdel Masdoua
47. TheDarkOne
Liandrin sent the Draghkar. I’m hoping if I state this firmly enough everyone will just nod and agree. I would also like perfect nails, world peace and a pony.

--> I'm still laughing! And since that question always bugged me, I think I will just nod along 'cause I have nothing!

As for the all 'Morgase can't be on the throne of Andor when it happens' thing, well correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she's ever referred to as 'Queen Morgase' in that chapter...
In fact, given that Nynaeve wants to go to the Two Rivers and Lan immediately thinking about Morgase may had weight to a certain Tam/Morgase theory if you know what I mean...
I'm just saying...
48. Rebecca Starr
ch 18
as to swords made of the Power though, *how* could Siuan do this? she has sworn the oaths and shouldn't be able to make a weapon

ch 19
thanks to other people's comments, I'm reading selene/lanfear through a new lens here, and yes now I agree there is some small compulsion going on. she really almost gives herself away though calling them "friends of the Dark" instead of "darkfriends"

ch 20
wow, how have i missed that Tolkien tribute, all these years? brilliant! in response, Leigh, i do think this is Rand's Aiel ancestry surfacing here... i also noticed, for the first time, a hint of foreshadowing. we've seen the choedan kal used, but they can be used again, right? because if so, note the language of a "song" used to describe it here:

"saidin sang, and the sphere pulsed... and the thought came that if he sang the song saidin sang, that huge stone face would open its mouth and sing with him."

"the song of saidin, the song of the sphere..."

"the song filled him, filled the emptiness..."

should we call for a tuatha'an Seeker?
Abdel Masdoua
49. TheDarkOne

I also always assumed that it was an early LTT manifestation but I could be wrong!

BTW, could anyone remind me WHEN exactly does the 'LTT POV' - for lack of a better term - make its first appearance and is (as far as we can tell) an actual LTT and not Rand arguing with himself as he just /loves/ to do?
Kyle Bass
50. SherlockTomes

As a king and her political equal, Lan would not feel particularly obligated to refer to Morgase as "Queen Morgase." The Two Rivers IS technically within the realm of Andor, so it would be politically correct for him to contact the queen.

That said, crazier things have happened...or at least been suggested and debated.
51. Renegade248
@ Rebecca Starr

I do think Siuan can make a sword of power if she knows she is not gonna kill anyone with it. Doesn't the oath say 'cannot make any weapon to be used to kill another'. Since she knows she isn't gonna use it to kill, I think she can still make one with the power.
52. dubjazz
If chapter 23 is where the naked women first appear. What about all the women spanking women thing? Don't they start wopping each other pretty soonish?
53. FunBob
Hey all

I think that what Moiraine realized was that the Dragon Reborn would declare himself over Toman Head and would not fit into the "Illian-Horn of Valere" scheme she had dreamed up. That could leave the letter she wrote being (1) to Siuan to tell her that she wasn't going to Illian after all, but to Toman Head, or (2) to Verin to tell her to go join the hunt for the Horn and guide Rand and the boys. Since we don't get a time frame from the chapter, this could be the missing point to how Verin says that Moiraine sent her, especially since I don't think Siuan heard anything from Moiraine until Min goes back to Tar Valon.

Also thought the chapter heading was pretty awesome: The Watchers. It can refer to (1) Adeleas and Vandene who are in retreat gathering knowledge by watching the world from the outside, (2) The Watchers over the Waters who are enslaved / killed by the Seanchan for not remembering what they were watching for, and (3) the Dark One / Forsaken / General Baddies who are watching all of Moiraine's moves and try to take her out of the game with the Draghkar.

Finally, LOVE Nynaeve. She has a strong personality, as Leigh said before, which really focuses on her emotions. I kinda think of her as the uber-girl of the three Power puff girls who lives on the edge of her skin and uses her emotions to feed her beliefs and desires. Its only when she starts trying to control her emotions that we can really see how awesome she is, when she makes the singularly most devoted and courageous move in the series by lining up the Borderland's armies for Lan to lead to Tarmon Gaidon
54. David Scotton
I don't believe that Lews Therin shows up in Rand's head until much later, after Rand's channeled a lot more icky taint.

My preferred interpretation was that Lews Therin manifest as a separate personality in Rand's head after he'd channeled enough of the taint to start going crazy, but as the Dragon Reborn, he and Lews Therin are the same person, not two different people. Any memories he has should have been there in his subconscious all along.

Actually, one of the things that most impressed me about Jordan's writing was how Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head seemed reasonable to me when written from Rand's perspective, and it wasn't until thinking about it much later that I realized how nuts he really is by midway through the series.
55. Nuggette
@ Renegad248 I'll agree with you on that.
56. David-2
Mat does get awesome - I like that - but he also loses some of his mischievousness too, unfortunately. I'm not talking about stupid stunts like floured-up 'ghost' dogs. I'm talking about: no sooner has he whipped G&G with his quarterstaff against their swords then he is on a ship and dumping all his extra food - that he no longer needs to eat - overboard just to tick off the captain.

I also like when he makes a big deal of Egwene as Amyrlin Seat when he sees everyone else ignoring her, even though he has reason to be upset with her, because his sense of honor and pride overcome that.
57. gagecreedlives
Sarcastro @6
“ Plus I loved all the subtle mystery of the bond-passing. This I think is the first reference to Myrelle, who we later see has something of a reputation as a resuscitator of warders whose sisters are dead. Of course, as awesome as that would make her seem, it also seems that she does it by shagging them. Oh well.”

Makes her even more awesome in my oh so humble opinion.

Mat does do some crappy behaviour early on in the series but does make amends for it. He even breaks into the Stone of Tear while a massive battle is going on with forsaken running amok to try and rescue the super girls from the black ajah. All pre fox head medallion.

Your not supposed to be able to channel during the accepted test. Well your not supposed to be able to cure stilling but Nyn does it anyway.

I think the acceptatron (sounds like a really nice transformer) is just pulling the images out of Nynaeves subconscious. She has to overcome her fear of the forsaken, the fear of whats happening in the 2 Rivers without her and she has to give up her ultimate fantasy.

Another little foreshadowing Nynaeve thinks nervously about spiders while she is in the acceptatron and her arch nemesis turns out to be Moghedian the spider.
craig miller
58. craigpmiller
Once again ... wow,

I am humbled by the presence of such mastery.

Keep it up Leigh and everyone else.

59. Sidetrack'd
chapter 19 - Rand's headiness and questionable judgement sneaking into Fain's camp - is this the latest woozy fit from channeling, from operating the Portal Stone? The symptoms occur sooner after the actual channeling each time, so this would fit...

TimKington@39 - early LTT - I kinda thought that, too, on a later re-read.

RebeccaStar@48, and agree with Renegade248@51 - Pretty sure the wording and intention of the 'no weapon' clause was specified as no weapon 'to use to kill another' - as in physical weapons anyone can use, like power-wrought swords and ashanderai (sp?) and such.

On the Acceptatron (I love that) - In T'A'R, from creating a stand mirror temporarily to the runaway nightmares that take form and stick around, all it takes is concentration on something to make it real. I think this makes it really believable that the ter'angreal picks thoughts out of their minds, whether conscious or subconscious, and makes them seem real, since we get so many other examples of that very process. The resonance with Egwene's ring seals it for me, that it's some sort of manifestation or use of T'A'R.
60. jafco
Leigh - si puo?

Another take on Portal Stones and the Accepted induction ceremony (Part 1):

Jordan advanced a concept of an infinite number of worlds in which something was different from this one (parallel universes or many-worlds ideas). The Portal Stones represent a small subset of those worlds to which the "ancients" had navigated (like bookmarks in a browser). The Portal Stones are just a tool to get to them for research purposes.

RJ makes many references to it. I believe (but stand subject to correction) that "the Dark One was captive everywhere, and had to escape captivity in all worlds" in order to win. The Creator wasn't exactly a pushover.

I refer you to the Glossary (this from LoC): "...T'a'R: A world or place, glimpsed in dreams, which was believed by the ancients to permeate and surround all other possible worlds. Many can touch T'a'R for a few moments in their dreams, but few have ever had the ability to enter into it at will, though some ter'angreal confer that ability. Unlike other dreams, what happens to living things in the World of Dreams is real; a wound there will still exist on awakening, and one who dies there does not wake at all, Otherwise, though, nothing done there affects the wakening world in any way...."

end Part 1
61. Renegade248
Jafco @60

RJ makes many references to it. I believe (but stand subject to correction) that "the Dark One was captive everywhere, and had to escape captivity in all worlds" in order to win.

I thought it was "if the dark one escapes in one world, he would be free in all the worlds." I believe Verin mentions that somewhere, unsure what book though.
62. jafco
Part 2

The Accepted graduation test uses a ter'angreal that either takes one to a real alternative world that somehow accords with one's most prominent thoughts (but that sorta' requires a 'displacement' i.e. Nyn from our book becomes Nyn from the world where Lan is King and married to happy Nyn, etc. This is not a happy thought). Otherwise the thing takes one to T'a'R in that alternate world, where the dreamer gets the flavor of things, but if able to understand that it's wrong, can escape via the arch.

The physical hurts suffered there are felt back here (Rand had the sliver and the first heron brand, Nyn had the thorn wounds). There's plenty of channeling in T'a'R - see Rand v. Rahvin v. Nynaeve. And the girls, in the Accepteds' cases, who fail to dodge mortal harm or to escape the dream, simply don't come out of the ter'angreal (I think this is the idea about 'physically being dragged' into T'a'R that the Aiel Wise Ones so despise).

Anyway, my 2 cents' worth.
63. jafco
@61. Renegade248

"...I thought it was "if the dark one escapes in one world, he would be free in all the worlds." I believe Verin mentions that somewhere, unsure what book though...."

I think you may have the right of it. Thanx (subject of course to...). Whichever way it reads, there are an infinite number of worlds in which HE (all caps) is prisoner.

Your idea raises all kinds of issues. Imagine a world in which EVERYBODY is a Darkfriend. Why hasn't HE popped out there, say, eons ago? Another idea on "parallel worlds" is that there is only one true world, and everything else is a lesser reflection of it. So for a jailbreak to even be seen here, it has to happen here (there's some hint of that in tDR? with all the Rands jumping out of the mirrors).

Another thought: in TGH, in the alternate world in which Rand finds himself, "Randland" (the continental mass that is our book's home) had been conquered by Trollocs, who were then obliterated by the civilization in Seanchan. It's their sho wings which left such long stretches of blasted turf where Rand is, and which we see leaving contrails in the sky.

3 cents' worth.
Ryan Thistlethwaite
64. shintemaster
I read it as the Dark One being 'outside' the worlds. He's not trapped IN Randland, the Bore is just a point which is 'thinner' and allows easier access to his prison. I've always seen the Dark One as being outside of creation, if he manages to get free and 'slay the great serpent' ie kill time then he will free and this would happen in all creation across all universes. Basically, if Rand doesn't do the deed then ALL universes will be in deep trouble as t ime will end.
65. jafco
@64 shintemaster

Yeah, we all need to pay attention to the exact words Jordan wrote. What you wrote resonates, too. Darn, I'll have to wait on Leigh or others or reread myself.

Still, the Glossary says Shayol Gul is where the DO is imprisoned. Of course that's here, there and everywhere. Maybe that qualifies as outside of time or space. And maybe that's why WE are reading this. The Bore is here, and so this is where the battle is to be fought (forget all those shadow worlds). Probabilistically, somebody's gotta do it, and it's us this time.

"Sweet! You want some of this, buddy! Come and get it!" Pvt. Hudson, "Aliens"
66. Tony Zbaraschuk
Mat doesn't really get glorious until the scene where he wakes up in the Tower. It is probably not a coincidence that this is his first extended POV section. (Neither he nor Perrin show up very much that way in the first two books, except for Perrin's trip with Elyas.)

Cairhien always strikes me as a society in terminal collapse; its whole economic reason for being disappeared with the collapse of trade across the Aiel Waste, and now you have a lot of guys partying hard in the ruins and trying ever more fantastical schemes to stave off despair -- does anyone at all think that Galldrian's scheme of moving the statue could ever have succeeded? The spark will come shortly, but the tinder has been dry for years, only waiting for the flame.
67. locosweetie
Sheriam obviously has no idea what she is talking about. There is a flaw in her logic (and no, I don't think I would be white ajah if I had the chance). she says that you shouldn't be able to remember about channeling when inside the rings. Then she says that whoever did channel in there came out stilled. I don't know, but this just didn't ring right ;) . when I read this, it immediatly lowered my opinion of Sheriam, and therefore was no suprise to me when she turns out the way she is in KoD.
68. IanGH
Hmm... Lots to cover and I am so far behind...

Acceptatron... Love it (and the name, too). During Egwene's novice final exam (in TDR?), she is almost fried by the thing due to resonance between it and her Tel'aran'rhiod Ter'angreal. If it doesn't use T'A'R directly, it is using some facsimile.

Inicidentally, all the Ter'angreal were artificts of an Earlier Age and it is clear later in the series that present-day folks haven't a clue as to their original intent. Perhaps this one was an Age of Legends holodeck? Or Sho'wing flight simulator? Now they press the wrong buttons and people go in and don't come out, or face their worst nightmares...

Let's see what else... The Nine Rings... way cool. I'm sure I missed it on my first read through.

The Daes Dae'mar got on my nerves on my first couple of reads. Now I see it as a perfect vehicle to display Rand's Ta'veren-ness. (I've been watching for this more since the scene where Basel Gill stands up to the Whitecloaks in TEOTW ch. 41. Didn't catch it on my earlier reads. Of course, in TDR we are beat senseless with it.)

Rand's shouting of the Aiel creed seemed disjointed to me, too. Yes, Rand had heard it from Loial before but he had no reason to be thinking about it at that moment. I'm wondering if there wasn't some more back-story here (like Rand musing about his ancestry) that was edited out.

I agree with those who say Moiraine learned about Fain = Mordeth. She clearly doesn't know this at the start of the book and does at the end.

Do we know who the letters went to? And what they said?

By the way, Liandrin may not have sent the Draghkar. They may both have been sent by the same person (i.e. Ishy).

69. Sgtpepper

First of all thank you so much for providing your insight and your sense of humour to this re-read of the WOT. I've been just about completely agreeing with all your observations, but one in this edition got me thinking (believe me, this rarely happens - if Selene had been standing in front of me in my shirt, the whole shirt, and nothing but the shirt, she would now be in posession of the dagger, the horn, Emond's Field, and my 18yr old virginity).

Ahem anyways to the point, I particularly zeroed in on the quote regarding Moiraine and the Draghkar:

"It was warded," Moiraine said.
"Impossible," Adeleas snapped. "Only a sister could - " She stopped, and Vandene turned from Jaem to look at Moiraine.

This has probably been argued on the WOTFAQ but seriously, what if Vandene is black? I can't go into specifics without launching into an article as long as yours but she does excuse herself citing 'tasks' to be about before bed, and she does know Moiraine is on to something (if not quite that the dragon really is reborn). And Vandene turning to look at Moiraine after that quote is like finishing the sentence of her sister - but in a more sinister way.

What would you do if you knew your twin followed the Dark One? Wouldn't you rather cling to the whole "no-one has walked in the darkness long enough they can't walk in the light" thing and try to protect her as long as you could?

Anyways I could quote passages at you all night and probably only convince myself I'm wrong, just wanted to put this one out there.

Well anyway thanks for the re-read its really engaging my thirst for these books and if I ever actually get some time to read, I'll be followiing along with you!

70. Randalator
@ sarcastro

Concerning the swords: We don't see it done ever again BY A FEMALE CHANNELER.

Which seems reasonable given Siuan's contempt for this use of the power. I guess that for one this is basic female-Randlander-belief. "Sword be no good. Sword be for men killing other men." And of course there is this certain oath. Creating swords that cannot be used for their intended purpose is fairly useless even from a non-female viewpoint.

However we DO see swords made from the Power quite extensively since it more or less becomes Rand's weapon of choice. And Be'lal too creates a sword of (black) fire while fighting Rand in the Stone of Tear.

So given that male channelers are strong in Earth and Fire and use swords made from Fire, I think it's safe to say that with women having an affinity for Air and Water the female equivalent would be a sword made from Air. We just don't see a lot of sword-crazy Aes Sedai hopping about having themselves deadly sword-fights for obvious reasons...

Concerning the no-weapons-oath: As it was already explained by Renegade248, Siuan knows that her sword can not be used for killing. She herself has no intention of actually using it and no other person could do so because she would just release the weave and the sword would disappear. Hence the oath doesn't apply...
Tim Kington
71. TimKington
@jafco, Renegade248

The imprisonment thing is actually both - If the DO is imprisoned in one world he's imprisoned in all, and if he breaks free in one, he's free in all. Verin mentions that it's a paradox when she brings it up.
Richard Fife
72. R.Fife
On the multiple worlds/DO prison, Verin says, and I'm paraphrasing: 'If he escapes in one, he escapes in all, but so long as he is bound in one, he is bound in all. It's a paradox.' This happens in the same scene where she gives Egwene the dream t'ngl and the info about Ba'mon being Ishy. (not, not batman...)

Also, the "saying" is that the DO is bound in Shayol Ghul, but I believe it is Lanfear that later in (maybe TSR) that says the bore is everywhere, you can just feel it in Shayol Ghul the best.
73. RobMRobM
Quick observations as I am heading out for vacation (or at least quicker than usual, LOL)

18. Love the Nyn scene and very important - it shows that not only does she have the "spark" but the ability to learn new weaves and use them in an instant, one of her defining power characteristics. Guess she also at this point now knows the weave for cutting off power.

19. Bad ass Rand indeed. I've always wondered whether Selene would have grabbed the horn and bolted if Rand hadn't prevented her from laying her hands on it at this juncture. Leigh - your fornication bit made me laugh out loud - well played.

20. Much scarier scene when reading it on re-read, as Rand almost loses it. Interesting that he's now been told he looks like an Aiel on multiple occasions (Loial, Green Man, Masema) and looks like he's decided to incorporate and use the motto at a time of great stress.

21. I hated Daes daemer on first read but liking it better this time - especially in light of Tom's upcoming comment that Rand needs to remember that White Tower was where the concept started and they are still the true masters of it. Yowza. Also, of course Selene had to create a distraction. If she actually had to disclose a Carheinian the officer immediaely or Rand once he got to Carhin would be in position to identify her as a liar - ruining the love illusion.

22. Love the scene for all sorts of reasons: Moirane/Lan development, info dump, etc. I'm convinced the mystery info that Moirane picked up is that Dragon will appear on Toman's Head. Once she realized this correlated with Fal Dara disclosures, Moiraine sent her letter to Siuan (no doubt) to say she was immediately heading for Falme - a trip of many weeks or even months from Arafell. I also don't think the D was sent by Lliandrin. The problem is - who knew M was visiting the sisters? Didn't she travel there in secret? I'm heading in the direction that the sister who didn't die several books later is BA.

23. Really liked this scene (and not just for the start of nakedness season in Randland, LOL). Her attack on Aginor in the first ring showed her the way to fight when faced with the Seanchan attack coming out of Waygate on Toman Head. Second one showed her profound conflict between being AS and Wisdom that did, in fact, resolve itself when she came out of ring and was washed away. I believe third one does shows an imperfect view of future - she will marry Lan but details will be different. Love the Sharina Sedai as real person who Nyn meets later angle, just as I loved that Egwene's keeper was a real AS (even though there was no sign Eg knew her yet) but not the one she ultimately chose.

74. birgit
Dim thoughts; someone else's thoughts.
Is this LTT?

No, it's Rand's own thoughts that seem distant because they are outside the void.

The Oath forbids making weapons like Lan's and Rand's sword, but Siuan is just demonstrating different forms with the OP, she is not using it to fight.

chapter 19 - Rand's headiness and questionable judgement sneaking into Fain's camp - is this the latest woozy fit from channeling, from operating the Portal Stone? The symptoms occur sooner after the actual channeling each time, so this would fit...

His last channel reaction was after the fight at the Eye. It is Lanfear's talk about glory that makes him act like that to impress her.
75. Lsana
@62 jafco,

You raise an interesting point, but in TAR, all injuries are real, while in the Acceptatron, sometimes injuries are real, while other times they aren't. If the Acceptatron were physically taking people into TAR, I'm pretty sure that no one could be injured in there and not come out covered in wounds.

@67 locosweetie,

There's no contradiction there. Sheriam says that the first few times they sent people in, they were shielded, didn't lose there memories, channeled, and came out stilled. Later, they sent unshielded people in, those people couldn't remember that they could channel so they didn't, and they came out all right. Two different groups lead to the channeling causes stilling/can't remember how to channel conclusions.
76. Silverwolf
People in favor of the "Vandene is a darkfriend" theory seem to be forgetting the events in a certain house in Caemlyn in KoD; doesn't necessarily disprove the theory, but certainly smacks it around a bit.
77. billiam
Here's a couple of ideas:

RE Rand & the big statue
The Aiel as a people go all the way back to the AOL when they were known as the children of the dragon. The CK is from the AOL, so maybe the Aiel creed also can be traced back to the AOL, maybe as a way of using the statues power? Could it also have anything to do with the song the tinkers are looking for? I always thought the Aiel would be the ones to know the song.

RE Moiraine, the draghkar, & who sent it
The question has come up as to how whoever sent the draghkar knew where Mo was. They knew because it was sent by either Vandene or Adeleas. I'm leaning towards Adeleas though, maybe that has something to do with her murder later on?

Speaking of the BA, I believe both Sheriam & Verin are of the black.

Also, anyone else think that the tinker from the DF party was Aram?

Last thought for now, the two characters I liked the least (hated actually) in the first few books were Mat & Nynaeve. Guess who my two favs are now, thats right, Mat & Nyn, lol.
78. laframboise
What if it takes the reunion of now-disparate peoples to bring the parts of the song back together? I would think the 'treesinging' talent Loial displays would be a part of it. Ogiers were involved in the original AOL field-growing ceremonies.
Richard Fife
79. R.Fife
Laframboise @ 78:
I could see that, but then they are still kinda screwed since the green man (samosheta or whatever is real name is) is gone, and he was part of it too.

Time for super crazy theory time: There is a 9th Ajah! The Purple, whose only goal is to just mess with people. After all, according to the WoT-Guide book, there were crap loads of Ajahs to begin with, and it just kinda "settled" into the 7(8/9 whatever).
Joe Sherry
80. jsherry
chpt 21:
Why's Selene/Lanfear all in a tizzy over being asked her name? I assume it's simply because her claim to being a noble Cairhienin couldn't stand up to Caldevwin's interrogation techniques? So she makes a girl drop a lamp? Seems a bit desperate and lacking in subtlety for her standards. Lame. I call shenangins.

Rikka @ 24:

Lanfear has serious name / identity issues. Asmodean calls her "Mieren" in Book 4 and she snaps back on him that her name is Lanfear. I think she just has issues being identified as anyone other than Lanfear - despite the Selene masquerade and then later the masquerade in the caravan.
81. Lsana
@ 77 billiam, @ 78 laframboise,

This is a little bit off topic, but I thought it was pretty clear from Rand's genetic memories in Rhuidean that the "song" the Tinkers are searching for is the plant-singing ritual that we see them doing in the AOL. The Tinker myth of the song that will make everything alright is just that--a myth, although one with a grain of truth to it. While getting that ritual back might be nice, it is no more going to make the world into Utopia then Elayne's rediscovery of how to make ter'angrael.
Rich Bennett
82. Neuralnet
arghhh! I thought I had my WoT addiction kicked and then you pull me back in. why does this series have such a huge hold over me.

ok deep breath...

One question that these chapters always bring up for me is the backstory on Elyas the former warder turned wolfbrother? What happened to his Aes Sedai? how did he get rid of the bond without dying etc?

Of course one of my biggest questions is whether verin is black Ajah. I am really hoping she isnt since I have grown to really like her over the years.

I had completely forgotten about hurin's ability to track violence. very cool. I like the idea that there are all of these talents (like min's, hurin's, perrin's and even being able to enter the world of dreams)that coexist with one power use but are independent of being able to use the OP. but unfortunately in the latest books they are very much downplayed. Seriously, when was the last time Min did something useful with her talent.

thanks for the reread and comments
83. Kendu
As the episode with Rand and co. at the Choedan Kal suggests, there is a possible connection between said ter'angreal and the Tinkers' Song (as suggested by Rebecca Starr @48). Therefore, wouldn't it make some sort of sense for Rand to begin reciting the Aiel motto vs. the Dark One?

After all, Rand discovers later the common origin of the Tuatha'an and the Aiel in the AoL's Dashain Aiel, who knew and used the Song with the help of Ogier and Nym for agriculture. And the Dark One represents general entropy, for the health of the land as well as for other areas.

So Rand, having heard that particular Aiel motto previously, and Lews Therin, who was aware of the Dashain Aiel (and may possibly be lending Rand some small glimmers of knowledge, if very slight) make a connection between the two, and recite the Aiel motto to stand against the Dark One in the presence of that power which the Aiel used to do that in the first place.

Perhaps the Song is somehow related to the Power? Maybe the True Power = Dark One Power, the One Power = Neutral Power, the Song = Creator Power. (I believe Lanfear mentioned challenging the Creator with the Choedan Kal.)

Either way, it was singing to his very soul, and at the very least, it brought Rand subconsciously to the place he wanted to be anyway, the place where the Dark One is defeated, by his hand or no. Remember, just in the previous book, he caves in at the Blight and says (paraphrasing) "Okay, I'll do it. I'll end it." And then, taking a proactive hand against what he thinks is the Dark One, is ecstatic that he (thinks) he killed him. So at the very core of himself, he recognizes a power that could possibly defeat the Dark One, and is subconsciously ecstatic for this (especially after being told he was the Dragon Reborn not a few weeks earlier) and his subconscious looks around for a quick "Balls to the Dark One!" motto.

Eh. Or a wizard did it.
84. Kendu
And billiam so beat me to it...
Richard Boye
85. sarcastro
Elyas' Aes Sedai is Rina Hafden, one of the new Siters for the Green.

His bond was not passed on - she still has it, but she can, I think the term they used was 'fuzz' the bond, to attenuate it and its effcts/benefits. As far as Elyas can tell, she is alive, but that's all.
86. BigMac
Love the commentaries! How did you get such a cool job?! haha

I thought much of the same things when I first read the books i.e. how annoying Nynaeve was and how much I just wanted to ask her wtf her deal was and tell her off. But now, rereading them for the umpteenth time, I realize that she is one of my favorite characters and have always been pulling for her.

Also, I don't care how much Lanfear could prey on Rand's sexual naivite, when she starts rantin and ravin about 'the glory' she steps over the line into psychoville and Rand seems to finally realize that something might be up with chica loco. But then he still tries to find/save her. WTF Rand?
Blake Engholm
87. UncrownedKing

The only reason he tries to save her is, who doesn't want to pull an old fashion rescuein of a damsal in distress?? Common every boyhood instinct screams for you to do it.

And when she looks like she does (I for some reason or another picture Lanfear as Catherine Zeta Jones, anyone? anyone?? just me? fine then, I'll call the casting directors and tell them) you would have to do it.

But thank god he finally put the pieces together
88. Lsana
@86 BigMac,

Remember that all of the Two Rivers characters have an almost obsessive need to protect/save women to the point where there have been jokes about it being some kind of genetic defect. Even after he learns that she's Lanfear, even when she's in the process of trying to kill Egwene and Aviendha, he can't bring himself to hurt her. At the current point in the story, when she is just a naive and kind of annoying but extremely beautiful and seemingly innocent Cairhein noblewoman, do you really think he could leave her in a situation where she might be in danger? Would the Rand that we know and love do that?
Richard Boye
89. sarcastro

There's a superb picture of Lanfear by Roberta Stroud floating around on the 'net that I think strongly favors Catherine Zeta Jones, so that might be the kernel of your impression

For myself, I always picture Famke Janssen from an episode of Star Trek: the Next Generation (but with black hair). She was so composed and wintry and elegant and alluring (the ST:TNG character was a genetically designed woman who was intended to be the perfect consort to some alien potentate), which is just how I picture Lanfear when she was making her impressive first appearance(s).
Joe Sherry
90. jsherry
Lsana @ 81:

I agree. I don't think the Song is what the Tinkers think it is (even if they have an idea what they are looking for anymore). It could positively impact the world, but not until after the fighting is through.

I'd be surprised if it is something that would help in the Last Battle, but yeah, the Song as the Tinkers understand it is myth.
91. Renegade248
RE Moiraine, the draghkar, & who sent it
The question has come up as to how whoever sent the draghkar knew where Mo was. They knew because it was sent by either Vandene or Adeleas. I'm leaning towards Adeleas though, maybe that has something to do with her murder later on?

I do not believe either Vandene or Adeleas sent the draghkar. Remeber, Liandrin left Fal Dara(sp) the same time Moiraine did as Siuan says in her remarks. I do believe that Liandrin followed Moiraine secretly and found out where she was staying and then sent the draghkar.
92. Rebecca Starr
Ch 22
Sure, Leigh, I'll go with Liandrin ;) she did follow Moiraine. I concede that Mordeth may very well be the question Mo got an answer to, without having asked it. My only other thought is something to do with the Black Ajah, since this comes up directly after with reference to the warded Dragkhar?

Ch 23
I'm not sure why but I've always been dissatisfied with Nynaeve's first arch. Aginor? really?? The other two arches seem like such deep, real fears of hers. Obviously the Forsaken are scary, but the fear of them hasn't been a deep-seated thread for Nynaeve, and won't be until Mogy shows up (spiders, heh). the one other thought I have is that "what was" refers in Nynaeve's case to a past life... maybe she battled Aginor in another incarnation back in the AoL, hence meeting him so suddenly and definitively here

I also disagree with those who think Sheriam is misinformed or ignorant about the channeling within the ter'angreal. Nynaeve and Egwene do appear to be the only two who ever pull off this feat, and I feel that there is an important kernel or clue in that somehow. I also think that Nynaeve's last arch is significant - the thorns placed just so, the fact that the arch appears for her twice... .I just can't put my finger on what.

and geez, what is up with Jordan and nudity during any important rite?
93. Caseyft
Loial quoted the Aiel motto to Rand in TEOTW, so that at least explains how he knows it.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a POV from Lan in New Spring (chapter 1?). I suppose you can consider this apocrypha but RJ so did write it ...
Ryan Thistlethwaite
94. shintemaster
Regarding Lanfear and her names. I always had the impression her rage at being called Mieren was because it was her name before turning. A sensitive topic perhaps, I don't think it's the same as her pseudonym as Selene.

I always wondered about Mieren as she was one of the two who created the bore. Did she actually turn or was she corrupted by the sheer power / darkness of the DO when the opened the bore? The only evidence I ever saw in the text was a comment / thought by one of the characters (Rand?) asking if she pledged to the DO at that moment. I always thought it was a kind of sad situation, they thought they were creating something even more wonderful than the One Power...
95. Caine09
Hey still here loving the re-read.

One thing I dont get is that Rand is somehow able to use the Choeden Chal without the use of one the keys which is deacribed as being essential in TSR.

Also Nyneave's vision of the future im guessing id the usual, this could happen if you make whatever choiced etc. Because unless somthing crazy happens in MOL Elyane is now Queen since KOD.

Also "shintemaster" neither the books or The World of the Wheel of Time ever specify. But my theory is she was drawn towards the sheer power of the True Source.
Ofer Nave
96. odigity
Lews Therin (through Rand's thoughts) tells us that Lanfear always loved power, and I think implies that was the reason he dumped her long before he hooked up with Ilyena and the DO was rediscovered. So I'd say she wasn't just simply caught up in the moment...
Agnes Kormendi
97. tapsi
"and geez, what is up with Jordan and nudity during any important rite?"

That's actually something he did right I suppose, as most of these rites represent rebirth, and we don't come from our mother's womb fully dressed ;)
Eileen Thorogood
98. mergandevinasandar
IMO the Aiel speech given by Rand when under stress resembles the Old Tongue coming out in some other Emond's Fielders (Mat, and to a lesser extent Egwene). Doesn't hurt that he's heard it before, of course. It's a great example of 'stubborn' blood raised by 'mule-headed' villagers.
99. Orideth
@95: The access keys are *not* required to access the Choedan Kal; they simply allow the user to tap into their power remotely. Pretty important for sa'angreal that are roughly the size of small mountains.
100. fikkie77
@Orideth: The access keys are required to use the Choedan Kal AND control the streams of the One Power flowing through them. If you stand beside a Choedan Kal, you can use them, but you get overwhelmed. That happened to Rand and could have happened to Lanfear or another Forsaken, as she knows of that danger.
101. darxbane
Nynaeve's third test is a mix of future truths with fantasy. Just think of how difficult it would be for Malkier to be completely restored in Lan's lifetime. Just because there is truth in it, doesn't mean the whole thing is true, or even possible.

As for the Choeden Kal, The access Ter'angreal are required to be able to control, or buffer, the flow of power. That's why Lanfear was so nervous; she knows that if he seizes Saidin directly through the Sa'Angreal, he will destroy himself, and possibly the entire world as well. If someone of his strength could make a mountain 5 miles high, imagine what he could do with his power magnified to that degree.

LTT/Rand - In KOD, Semirhage recognizes Ran's condition. She basically states that two souls can occupy one body, and that is confirmed by Min's visions. LTT's soul awakens when Rand first channels, and becomes more independant as time goes on. Rand's swordfighting ability early on is actually Lews Therin's. Bel'al tells him how they played the game "Swords" all the time. LTT was a blademaster. It is obvious to me that all of the main characters are reborn souls that had awesome abilities they subconsciously recall. It is also not beyond the realm of possibility that Cadsuane and Verin had the split personality issue, and the older soul had long since taken over, or a mix of the two exists. By the way, does anyone else find it funny that Cadsuane's "legendary" status was based on her cheating with Ter'Angreal nobody knew she had? It's easy to face men who can channel when you are immune to the weaves, and can sense them channeling.

Finally, I always felt that Lan helped Rand because he saw a kindred spirit; a man who's destiny was to die fighting the Shadow. The T'averen thing helps, but it is only part of it. Sharing Nynaeve's loyalties is also part of it.
102. birgit
and geez, what is up with Jordan and nudity during any important rite?

When Egwene is raised to Amyrlin, it is explained that the post-Breaking AS introduced this custom because they want to make sure there are no men present.

One thing I dont get is that Rand is somehow able to use the Choeden Chal without the use of one the keys which is deacribed as being essential in TSR.

Maybe Lanfear is so worried about Rand using the Choedan Kal because it is not safe to use it without the key. The key is necessary for remote access.
104. Mark-S
Yay - its Wednesday
Blake Engholm
105. UncrownedKing
I hate waiting for the next installment. Wish I knew what time it was getting posted.

Its like Christmas three times a week.
106. Lsana
@ 92 Rebecca Starr,

Someone else's comment (I can't find it now, so I apologize to whomever for not crediting you) made me think that Nynaeve's "fear" that she's confronting here is not Aginor, but her fear of channeling. That is the one thing from her past that she has the most trouble accepting, the fact that she's been channeling since before she became wisdom. "Aginor" wasn't anything more than an obstacle that she would be forced to channel to overcome.

I know I have been the most vocal complainer about the fact that Nynaeve channels in the ter'angreal when we are told that she shouldn't be able to, but in this one case, I think I can accept it. She isn't really channeling, the Acceptatron is just making her think she is (which is why she describes it as "so easy").
107. seanie
LOL - gotta love that nudity thing
speaking of which --I don't think Lanfear needs to use or wants to use compulsion on Rand. She thinks
a) she can seduce him (easily), b) lead him into the role she has picked out for him--willing accomplice , and naive subordinate . I think she has a big enough ego that she would think compulsion is beneath her , to use on her 'true love'.
Mat-I generally liked him , he was annoying at times , but he did get much cooler.
Awesome too.LOL. By the time the later books roll around , he becomes a fave . As someone wrote a bit earlier , he got much cooler when he got rid of the dagger.
Pretty much all of the EF kids had 'growing pains' .
Especially Nynaeve . LOL . Perrin got less irritating when he finally accepted the wolves . Poor Hopper . Until Faile got captured ..........aaaarrrgghh.
108. seanie
I started to think about Nyn and gotta give her credit for rounding up the army for Lan, which she did very neatly . Gotta love that speech . She has also been good with Rand too . The rest of the supergirls ...welll......
109. Nickeyw
Thanx for this re read, i wasn't going to start mine for a couple of months but now have been drawn in...

I believe Lanfear turned to the dark because she was not given a third name in AOL and her love/hate thing with LLT. I can't remember where i got this from though.
110. NanaD
Just a random thought, Where did the ages of the main characters come from, and aren't they awfully young to be saving the world?
111. Keegansgirl
First, love the re-read. I started to do so myself before I found these, probably in anticipation to the final reveal.

Tam/Morgase? I had never heard this theory before and had to put it out there that Morgase loves Tallanvor and he loves her. I personally don't think that Tam will ever remarry, he loved Kari so much, and just wants to be a simple farmer.

Also, I think that Lan helped out Rand because he is a king, uncrowned as he is, who understands the destructive power of the Shadow. He helps because he was pledged to fight the shadow with all that he is and has. Ta'veren may have just put Lan and Rand together so that Lan would feel, and act on the subconcious duty given to him by his heritage.
112. Dsai
I’m puzzled as to why, when Rand’s all bedazzled by the Choedan Kal statue, he’s muttering the Aiel motto. It’s appropriate thematically, of course, considering what he’s eventually going to use the things for, but it’s a little odd otherwise. It’s not like it could be Lews Therin leakage; first of all, Lews Therin was never Aiel, unless I missed a serious memo, and secondly, I don’t believe that Lews Therin shows up in Rand’s head until much later, after Rand’s channeled a lot more icky taint. I suppose it could be the same Manetheren/Old Tongue thing Mat has, except with Rand’s Aiel ancestry, but if so why is this such an isolated incident?

While this is my first contribution to the discussion I just wanted to interject that strictly speaking we lack actual knowledge wither Lews Therin was or was not Aiel.

In the book "The Shadow Rising" when Rand goes to Rhuidian he relives what is explained as his ancestor's lives. During the one alive when the bore was drilled, I am certain his internal dialogue mentioned something about Aiel who could channel becoming Aes Sedai during the time of legends.

That said, Lews Therin could easily have been one of these Aiel. Just a hypothesis I've carried for the past eight plus years, but one that might be insightful.
113. Lsana

That's an interesting theory and could very easily be true, but even so, I don't think that Lews Therin could be what inspired Rand to spout the motto. That whole "water, shade, defiance"-thing strikes me as a third-age Aiel thing. I don't see the Dai'shan from the AOL saying anything of the sort.
114. dsai

I think I was nit-picking with my comment...I wasn't trying to draw a corelation to Rand saying the Aiel motto by Lews Therrin being Aiel. I only wanted to point out that strictly speaking Lews Therrin Telamon could have been an Aiel before he learned to channel.

I mean after all, they are called the people of the dragon...I think it was because his people (meaning his race - like me being caucasian) were Aiel.
I don't believe Lews Therin was Aiel. He was a sword master who fought and killed people in the AOL's. Just by virtue of him handling a sword would make that hard to swallow. Also, when Rand is going back into the past via the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, when he is one of his ancestors. I cant remember which one, but when he goes to the hall of servants and tne Nym calls himm Child of the Dragon he thinks how that has caused problems no less for not being true. Many people believed at this time that the Aiel served only Lews Therin.
116. hummingbird

I had completely forgotten about hurin's ability to track violence. very cool. I like the idea that there are all of these talents (like min's, hurin's, perrin's and even being able to enter the world of dreams)that coexist with one power use but are independent of being able to use the OP. but unfortunately in the latest books they are very much downplayed. Seriously, when was the last time Min did something useful with her talent.

I love the other talents as well. Squashes the whole we have culled the race explanation of why there are only 40 novices in the white tower. The tower only recognizes talents like their own (but still willing to use and abuse those with other powers albeit Min)... maybe if they look at the other talents they would discover the uses for some of those ter'angrels and find others that have versions of the One Power to be cultivated in prep for the last battle.
117. toddywatts
Don't sisters sit at the edges of the acceptatron? What if one of them was BA? Wouldn't that change the terms of the test? I wonder if the others would know?

I hate hate hate Mat.

I like Anaiya. That really makes me sad.

I don't really care much for Perrin, either. In re-reading, I realized that I had skipped all the Perrin chapters in one of the books, including where he met Faile, and I didn't even realize it by the time the next book came out.
118. Katiya
Pretty sure the knowledge that Moiraine missed was the idea of Mordeth, as someone else said...we talked about that when we did this same thing over at Wotmania. Vandy was talking about him lurking around, waiting to steal a soul (again, as was mentioned above), and at the end of the book, Moiraine comes roaring back, blabbering about the true nature of Fain and also how she is "more dangerous"-- ie, she can make balefire.
119. Erdrick
Wow, I just missed a week and fell so far behind. The recaps are big enough, but the comments take even more time to read through. Hopefully I can catch up on the reading before the next recap.

Re: Nyn's testing, the Aginor scene was not about fear of the Forsaken or channeling. She was kicking his ass! The hard part was leaving the job unfinished. Just like the second test wasn't about being scared of the other wisdom; it was about abandoning her friends and her people. Likewise, the final test wasn't about being afraid of being married to Lan; it was the leaving part that was difficult.

Oh, and I think those rings use TAR to project a pure fantasy (dream rather than alternate) world (as can be constructed in TAR), with the possibility of some future truths mixed in (since visitors to TAR do sometimes get such visions). For example, Nyn would not be able to overpower Aginor the way she did. In the AoL he was the "second most powerful man" and "came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength." Those quotes came from the Guide, by the way.
120. Erdrick
Also, Beneath the Dagger is still one of my favorite chapters of the series. The "Shadowkiller" scene is just so badass that no recap can do it justice. For those of you with hazy book 2 memories, here are the closing paragraphs of that scene:

A knot of Trollocs came into sight, hunting uncertainly. Three of them, four. Suddenly one pointed to Rand and raised a howl the rest answered as they charged.

“Let it be done with!” Rand shouted, and leaped to meet them.

For an instant surprise slowed them, then they came on with guttural cries, gleeful, bloodthirsty, swords and axes raised. He danced among them to the song of saidin. Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose. So cunning that song, filling him. Cat on Hot Sand. The sword seemed alive in his hands as it had never been before, and he fought as if a heron-mark blade could keep saidin from him. The Heron Spreads Its Wings.

Rand stared at the motionless shapes on the ground around him. “Better to be dead,” he murmured. He raised his eyes, back up the hill toward where the camp lay. Fain was there, and Darkfriends, and more Trollocs. Too many to fight. Too many to face and live. He took a step that way. Another.
121. Erdrick
Re: the Chodan Kal, Rand is clueless about the OP, so when he sees the giant Chodan Kal statue, he is almost sucked into channeling through it. According to The Strikeat Shayol Ghul: "without the ter’angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power." That is why Selene freaks. Rand has to reach deep down to the unyielding core of who he is (hence the Aiel motto bubbling up) to break free from the pull of the Chodan Kal.
122. tabukat
Sorry for the late post, but I am just catching up on the re-read. I am really enjoying the discussions. I just had to point out, great Zork reference, Leigh "Nynaeve steps through the first arch, and finds herself in a maze of twisty passages, all alike" - funny, funny girl. Keep up the good work!
Marc Gioglio
123. u_turnagain
Again, on the off chance, someone is catching up as late as I. Let's assume that those who channel in during the test get burned out. Why would an accepted have cause to channel during the test? What world problem could possibly require channelling? The only thing that comes to mind is the unbeatable immortal forsaken. If you come accross one of these you have two choices. First, Fight as in draw enough power that you think you can beat them leading you to draw too much leading you to burn out. Second, Flee as in try to escape and fail and never leave. Nyn has an advantage, she has seen two forsaken defeated, thus they are not immortal and therefore are defeatable, by the OP no less. She believes she is better than Mo and therefore can stand up to forsaken no problem. As far as channelling a second doorway, how do the AS know the exit will only appear once? If someone stayed, how did they pass on the information? Nyn recreating the door though is totally awesome.

As far as Mat. The first time I read the books I absolutely hated him. As I reread the earlier books, original Mat became far more awesome than his souped up never can lose version. JMO.
124. Dsai

I don't believe Lews Therin was Aiel. He was a sword master who fought and killed people in the AOL's. Just by virtue of him handling a sword would make that hard to swallow. Also, when Rand is going back into the past via the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, when he is one of his ancestors. I cant remember which one, but when he goes to the hall of servants and tne Nym calls himm Child of the Dragon he thinks how that has caused problems no less for not being true. Many people believed at this time that the Aiel served only Lews Therin.

Being a sword master is irrelevent, because in that same scene you reference it states that many Aiel born with the spark leave behind the way of the leaf in order to become Aes Sedai.

I still hold that it is not beyond the realm of possibilities for Lews Therin Telamon to have been Aiel. Also in the Age of Legends, Aiel didn't just serve Lews Therin. Some of the forsaken had Aiel serving them before turning to the shadow. This I picked up from the companion book titled "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" which is chaulk full of information.
125. Anna Gram
Please tell me I'm not the only one who was convinced that old Adeleas/Vandene Warder was really Jaim Farstrider?
126. Mirax
Anna - I think a general consensus (I could be waaaay far off here, but I know at least some people agree) is that the old man that joins with Mat in Ebou Dar is Jain Farstrider. I don't have the book in front of me, and I don't remember his name, but he fits rather well.
127. Anna Gram
Oh, I agree with the old man Mat met etc now, I just remember that for a while I had the theory that Jain's disappearance really meant he had beome a Warder. If you think that theory was out there, I better not let you know some the really out there ones I used to foster ;)
128. cornichon
This is my first comment. It's been worthless up to now because I just started my re-read and am obviously way behind. It appears that some others are still checking this, so I'll ask my questions: what makes Moiraine ask Vandene about Lanfear? Is it just because Lanfear was connected to LTT previously? I mean, Moiraine obviously doesn't know about Selene/Lanfear being free yet.

Second question (should have been posted in a different thread, but like I said, just catching up): how can Ishamael claim to have fought the Dragon thousands of times? I realize "the Wheel" and all that, but Ishy was a man born during the AoL. I guess he could be reborn from previous "last battles" as Rand is, but if that's the case, why does he insist on calling Rand "Lews Therin"? Honestly, one could ask the same about all the Forsaken. If it's truly the same battle over and over, no Dragon name is more "correct" than any other, and there's no reason to insist on LTT over Rand al'Thor, except perhaps to just annoy him.
129. GK1625
Ok- glad to see some folks still are still behind the reading curve here- I just started the re-read. On the Morgase as once and future Queen... if my memory serves me-- Morgase was still a hand-maiden to Perrin's irritating wife at the end of book 11. Elanye still thinks her dead. Where/when does Morgase abdicate the throne to Elanye? And- what is the source for the Tam/Morgase affair theory? This re-read rocks- thank you so much for doing it- I am really enjoying it!!
130. RobMRobM
Morgase abdicates while in clutches of Whitecloaks (can't remember the specific book).

Yes, she was still sworn to serving Faile at end of KoD.

And, for good or ill, I'm the source of the Tam-Morgase future relationship theory, the basis of which has been stated in excrutiating detail in posts during the re-read.

131. JWezy
Cornicon - what makes Moiraine ask Vandene about Lanfear? I believe that "Daughter of Night" is mentioned in the prophesy written in the dungeon at Fal Dara (beginning of TGH).
132. GK1625
Rob- thanks for the info. I remember the scene now. I would say that an abdication given under duress would likely not be enforceable... I'll have to read through the forums as I get through the re-read.
133. TexanSedai
I would like to see more of Kandor / the Borderlands in general. I liked Sheinar in TEOTW and wouldn't mind more story line there.

I have been trying to avoid actually reading the whole series over again and just following along with the re-read (took me over a year the last time I read them all) however, it is becoming obvious that I need to break down and read. Y'all reference so many things in these posts I have completely forgotten about! IMHO you ALL deserve MVP awards! (take the "V" however you like!)
Tess Laird
134. thewindrose
Are you trying to get 'new' recruits for your Tam & Morgase Theory?
135. egsrocks
second comment, late to the re-read and yes I know couple of months since the last post here makes it VERY unlikely that anyone will read this but I have to ask this question..... Anyone else find it strange that Nyn can channel in the third arch when she's not angry? Maybe I just missed something in my reading.
Lannis .
136. Lannis
@ egsrocks... just a crack in the dark here (because my memory is pretty hazy at times, so yeah, I suppose it's pretty dark in there...), but IIRC, the third arc is to be the future, and really, if Nynaeve's finished her education at the White Tower, it stands to reason that she'd have broken her block in order to ascend to Aes Sedai and finish her training. :)
137. egsrocks
Thanks Lannis. I guess that's another clue as to what, exactly, the 'acceptatron" (convenient nickname there)actually does.
Aaron Dick
138. disturbed_kiwi
On Lews Therin showing up. I've been reading the reread posts but I only decided to start rereading the books a little while ago. I'm only up to here so far.

But something that caught my attention really really quickly was the way that Rand POV sections often have him talking to himself in his head. It doesn't seem out of place, everyone talks to themselves in their thoughts.

But it made me lean towards the 'Lews Therin isn't real' camp for the voice that shows up later. It's just another set of thoughts going loopy and that Rand names seperate to himself.

My two cents.
Jeff McIsaac
139. jeffm1
Not a single comment about Mat feeling tingly while being delved by Selene/Lanfear!!!

Leigh, I am disappointed that you wouldn't at least even try to touch the Mat can Channel issue. I cheated and read ahead, and you didn't touch it when the 'threads' control Comar's loaded dice in ch 49 either. Or how about the parallel between his bridge jumping while leaving TV vs Rand sitting on the mast of the Spray in TEoTW - known channeling sickness symptoms. And we haven't gotten there yet, but we know that Bode is a sparker. What more evidence do you need?? Dude can totally channel.

I think that saidin is the "half the light of the world" that he gives up. I think the *finn take it away in the Rhuidean doorway when he asks to be "done with the power and AS". He gets the fox head ter' to be done with AS, but I think that something else is needed for him to be done with the power.

Right or wrong, though, I am astonished that no one even commented on the tingling!!!
140. eponymous
I could be wrong, but I think *all* POVs we see, at least to this point, indicate folks feeling tingling when being delved, usually in conjunction with being healed. Perrin is described that way in ch5 of TDR, and probably before as well. Mat's not special in this regard.

Ishy and the other Forsaken refer to the Dragon by the last name they knew him to have, namely, LTT. They've been sealed in the Bore since the last Age, and maintained their memories. They may have more knowledge now, courtesy of the DO, about previous battles in previous turnings of the Wheel, but call the Dragon by the name they know, Lews Therin.
141. VannaB
"One thing I dont get is that Rand is somehow able to use the Choeden Chal without the use of one the keys which is described as being essential in TSR."

Technically he wasn't using it. Saidin filled him of its own accord. It was more like the Choeden Chal was using him. And he was fighting with everything he had to push it out before it burned him to a crisp.

-- I realize it's a year late... what can I say. I'm slow. But I want to offer my opinion on the Acceptatron. (awesome name)

Sheriam states that when they tested it with women channeling, they stepped into it channeling and with a weave around them to shield them. Based on the results, they decided channeling while inside was bad bad bad.

If most women inside don't remember to channel, then THAT's where Nyn and Egwene are different, but note that they didn't enter the device while channeling. I think that is the key difference: they remembered how to channel. The emerging unharmed was simply because they didn't go in with guns blazing.

My own opinion is that the fun "past/present/future" device creates its own impenetrable dream bubble in T'A'R. I say this because not every wound in T'A'R comes back when waking. (I use mostly TEOTW as my reference for proof of this, but it still leaves loopholes for minor or non-important wounds - or sometimes even big burn your skin off wounds.) Nyn's blackthorn's are of obvious import to her, and since she re-created the silver arch, and created the thorns in order to do that, it would have been weird if they hadn't followed her out.

That's the world according to me, though.
Tabby Alleman
142. Tabbyfl55
Late to the party, I know, but since no one else has mentioned it:

Exeunt is plural. Since Selene left by herself, it should be "Exit Selene".

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